[NSP] Re: Style/dots

[colin]

To listen to a piece of music played strictly by the dots,
listen to something played either as a midi file or on one of those street 
organs where everything is accurate because they use pages with holes cut in 
them. They play the same (accurate) music time after time.
There's a rather nice mechanical music museum in Cornwall (Paul Corin) and 
there they have some mechanical pianos capable of playing the most 
complicated things. Someone had the idea of not only making the correct 
notes but invented a way of transferring the "touch" of the pianist to the 
mechanical sheets.
Paderewski used it to record a performance and the difference between it and 
a standard roll of the same music is truly astounding (it's actually called 
a Paderewski playing piano).
That, to me, showed the difference between the written note and the touch of 
master.

The nuances were totally missing from the plain player-piano.
I think that holds good for most music.
You need dots + "something" to make music (and maybe the dots are really 
just a guide).

Poetry is far better spoken aloud than read, isn't it?
Same words.

Colin Hill

- Original Message - 
From: "Anthony Robb" 

To: ; "Dave S" 
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:52 PM
Subject: [NSP] Re: Style/dots





  Hello Dave
  Whilst that was being penned there was a thriving and continuous aural
  tradition in various parts of Northumberland especially in the north. I
  only began to appreciate it when I moved there myself at the end of
  1976. None of the best players could read dots and they could trace
  their music heritage back through the generations. It is true they all
  wished they could read and so expand their repertoire more quickly but
  they couldn't and that may well be why their music was so distinctive.
  Cheers
  Anthony
  --- On Wed, 27/5/09, Dave S  wrote:

From: Dave S 
Subject: [NSP] Re: Style/dots
To: "Anthony Robb" , nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 27 May, 2009, 9:23 PM

  Hi Anthony, let me quote a passage showing that perhaps todays
  tradition started from the dots  and yes I agree  "Keep your ears
  open"
  ciao
  Dave
  A LETTER TO
  HIS GRACE THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND ON THE
  ANCIENT NORTHUMBRIAN MUSIC,
  ITS COLLECTION AND PRESERVATION.
  BY THOMAS DOUBLEDAY.
  *' Nor rough nor barren are the windings ways
  Of hoar Antiquity, but strewn with flow'rs."
  Thomas Warton.
  LONDON :
  NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE : ANDREW REID, 40, PILGRIM-STREET.
  1862.
  Such are the relative positions of the old, natural, and the
  modem, mathematical music. It seems clear that this posi-
  tion can never be altered. To expect a simple expressive
  melody to be appreciated, or even listened to, amidst the
  harmonious din of contending orchestras and oratorios, that
  count performers by himdreds, would be to expect a miracle.
  The Ancient Music, then, must remain in those "harbours of
  refuge" amongst the mountains of Northumberland, Scotland,
  Ireland, Beam, Corsica, Sicily, the Tyrol, Calabria, and
  Spain, to which it has been driven ; until amidst the muta-
  tions of society it may, probably, at length, finally disappear
  and be lost to the world, unless noted down, collected, and
  put on record.
  Such a fate I have long anticipated for the Ancient Music
  of Northumberland, which, being less in volume, much sim-
  pler, and only an offshoot of the music of Caledonia, may be
  expected soonest to perish. When, therefore, I learned, as
  I did some months since, that this subject had attracted the
  attention of the learned Society of Antiquaries of the town
  of Newcastle and its vicinity, my gratification was as great
  and sincere as it was unexpected. I had, in years gone past,
  sometimes dreamed of venturing upon the undertaking of
  collecting it single-handed. It was but a dream. A brief con-
  sideration was amply enough to convince me that to atchieve
  success in such a quest an expenditure of time and money
  must be involved far beyond that which any individual in a
  private station could, for such an object, be expected to incur.
  When, therefore, I became acquainted with the fact that
  the Society ol Antiquaries had taken the first step, by the
  appointment of a sub-committee, for the purpose of taking
  such measures for the collection and preservation of those
  interesting musical rehcs as might seem to be most efficient,
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style/dots

[Anthony Robb]

   Hello Dave
   Whilst that was being penned there was a thriving and continuous aural
   tradition in various parts of Northumberland especially in the north. I
   only began to appreciate it when I moved there myself at the end of
   1976. None of the best players could read dots and they could trace
   their music heritage back through the generations. It is true they all
   wished they could read and so expand their repertoire more quickly but
   they couldn't and that may well be why their music was so distinctive.
   Cheers
   Anthony
   --- On Wed, 27/5/09, Dave S  wrote:

 From: Dave S 
 Subject: [NSP] Re: Style/dots
 To: "Anthony Robb" , nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 27 May, 2009, 9:23 PM

   Hi Anthony, let me quote a passage showing that perhaps todays
   tradition started from the dots  and yes I agree  "Keep your ears
   open"
   ciao
   Dave
   A LETTER TO
   HIS GRACE THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND ON THE
   ANCIENT NORTHUMBRIAN MUSIC,
   ITS COLLECTION AND PRESERVATION.
   BY THOMAS DOUBLEDAY.
   *' Nor rough nor barren are the windings ways
   Of hoar Antiquity, but strewn with flow'rs."
   Thomas Warton.
   LONDON :
   NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE : ANDREW REID, 40, PILGRIM-STREET.
   1862.
   Such are the relative positions of the old, natural, and the
   modem, mathematical music. It seems clear that this posi-
   tion can never be altered. To expect a simple expressive
   melody to be appreciated, or even listened to, amidst the
   harmonious din of contending orchestras and oratorios, that
   count performers by himdreds, would be to expect a miracle.
   The Ancient Music, then, must remain in those "harbours of
   refuge" amongst the mountains of Northumberland, Scotland,
   Ireland, Beam, Corsica, Sicily, the Tyrol, Calabria, and
   Spain, to which it has been driven ; until amidst the muta-
   tions of society it may, probably, at length, finally disappear
   and be lost to the world, unless noted down, collected, and
   put on record.
   Such a fate I have long anticipated for the Ancient Music
   of Northumberland, which, being less in volume, much sim-
   pler, and only an offshoot of the music of Caledonia, may be
   expected soonest to perish. When, therefore, I learned, as
   I did some months since, that this subject had attracted the
   attention of the learned Society of Antiquaries of the town
   of Newcastle and its vicinity, my gratification was as great
   and sincere as it was unexpected. I had, in years gone past,
   sometimes dreamed of venturing upon the undertaking of
   collecting it single-handed. It was but a dream. A brief con-
   sideration was amply enough to convince me that to atchieve
   success in such a quest an expenditure of time and money
   must be involved far beyond that which any individual in a
   private station could, for such an object, be expected to incur.
   When, therefore, I became acquainted with the fact that
   the Society ol Antiquaries had taken the first step, by the
   appointment of a sub-committee, for the purpose of taking
   such measures for the collection and preservation of those
   interesting musical rehcs as might seem to be most efficient,
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style/dots

[Gibbons, John]

Started from? 1862?  

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Dave S
Sent: 27 May 2009 21:23
To: Anthony Robb; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: Style/dots

Hi Anthony, let me quote a passage showing that perhaps todays tradition 
started from the dots  and yes I agree  "Keep your ears open"

ciao
Dave
A LETTER TO
HIS GRACE THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND ON THE ANCIENT NORTHUMBRIAN MUSIC, ITS 
COLLECTION AND PRESERVATION.
BY THOMAS DOUBLEDAY.


*' Nor rough nor barren are the windings ways Of hoar Antiquity, but strewn 
with flow'rs."
Thomas Warton.
LONDON :
NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE : ANDREW REID, 40, PILGRIM-STREET.
1862.

Such are the relative positions of the old, natural, and the modem, 
mathematical music. It seems clear that this posi- tion can never be altered. 
To expect a simple expressive melody to be appreciated, or even listened to, 
amidst the harmonious din of contending orchestras and oratorios, that count 
performers by himdreds, would be to expect a miracle.
The Ancient Music, then, must remain in those "harbours of refuge" amongst the 
mountains of Northumberland, Scotland, Ireland, Beam, Corsica, Sicily, the 
Tyrol, Calabria, and Spain, to which it has been driven ; until amidst the 
muta- tions of society it may, probably, at length, finally disappear and be 
lost to the world, unless noted down, collected, and put on record.
Such a fate I have long anticipated for the Ancient Music of Northumberland, 
which, being less in volume, much sim- pler, and only an offshoot of the music 
of Caledonia, may be expected soonest to perish. When, therefore, I learned, as 
I did some months since, that this subject had attracted the attention of the 
learned Society of Antiquaries of the town of Newcastle and its vicinity, my 
gratification was as great and sincere as it was unexpected. I had, in years 
gone past, sometimes dreamed of venturing upon the undertaking of collecting it 
single-handed. It was but a dream. A brief con- sideration was amply enough to 
convince me that to atchieve success in such a quest an expenditure of time and 
money must be involved far beyond that which any individual in a private 
station could, for such an object, be expected to incur.
When, therefore, I became acquainted with the fact that the Society ol 
Antiquaries had taken the first step, by the appointment of a sub-committee, 
for the purpose of taking such measures for the collection and preservation of 
those interesting musical rehcs as might seem to be most efficient,



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style/dots

[Dave S]

Hi Anthony, let me quote a passage showing that perhaps todays tradition 
started from the dots  and yes I agree  "Keep your ears open"


ciao
Dave
A LETTER TO
HIS GRACE THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND ON THE
ANCIENT NORTHUMBRIAN MUSIC,
ITS COLLECTION AND PRESERVATION.
BY THOMAS DOUBLEDAY.


*' Nor rough nor barren are the windings ways
Of hoar Antiquity, but strewn with flow'rs."
Thomas Warton.
LONDON :
NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE : ANDREW REID, 40, PILGRIM-STREET.
1862.

Such are the relative positions of the old, natural, and the
modem, mathematical music. It seems clear that this posi-
tion can never be altered. To expect a simple expressive
melody to be appreciated, or even listened to, amidst the
harmonious din of contending orchestras and oratorios, that
count performers by himdreds, would be to expect a miracle.
The Ancient Music, then, must remain in those "harbours of
refuge" amongst the mountains of Northumberland, Scotland,
Ireland, Beam, Corsica, Sicily, the Tyrol, Calabria, and
Spain, to which it has been driven ; until amidst the muta-
tions of society it may, probably, at length, finally disappear
and be lost to the world, unless noted down, collected, and
put on record.
Such a fate I have long anticipated for the Ancient Music
of Northumberland, which, being less in volume, much sim-
pler, and only an offshoot of the music of Caledonia, may be
expected soonest to perish. When, therefore, I learned, as
I did some months since, that this subject had attracted the
attention of the learned Society of Antiquaries of the town
of Newcastle and its vicinity, my gratification was as great
and sincere as it was unexpected. I had, in years gone past,
sometimes dreamed of venturing upon the undertaking of
collecting it single-handed. It was but a dream. A brief con-
sideration was amply enough to convince me that to atchieve
success in such a quest an expenditure of time and money
must be involved far beyond that which any individual in a
private station could, for such an object, be expected to incur.
When, therefore, I became acquainted with the fact that
the Society ol Antiquaries had taken the first step, by the
appointment of a sub-committee, for the purpose of taking
such measures for the collection and preservation of those
interesting musical rehcs as might seem to be most efficient,



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style/dots

[Anthony Robb]

   Hello Dave
   Not xenophobic at all. There have never been more opportunities to
   learn about traditional styles. As you point out mp3, CD and of course
   You tube can all teach us about the tradition. I'm simply saying dots
   are ridiculously limited in conveying a tune accurately (or the style
   beyond it) especially if we accept there is more than one style to
   choose from. The important thing is to warm to one style and then study
   it deeply. Stewart's lovely phrase is internalise it. Once you have
   done that you are free to move on as you will have the deep
   understanding needed to go beyond the dots (and even change style if
   you wish). Where you go is up to you but what I'm saying is start with
   mp3s, CDs etc. and then reach for the dots.
   Cheers
   Anthony
   --- On Wed, 27/5/09, Dave S  wrote:

 From: Dave S 
 Subject: [NSP] Re: F.a.o. Francis & others
 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 27 May, 2009, 6:19 PM

   I sincerely hope this is not meant to have the xenophobic overtones
   that
   can be read between the lines ---  there are many avid fans of NSP who
   have no chance of getting to listen to the present interpretation of
   the
   tradition -- they only have cd ,mp3, etc surely this is not tradition.
   Jack Armstrong appeared to have tuned out and away from the tradition,
   and revealed a surprisingly modish way of playing, but unfortuneatly,
   unless the dead pipers can supply us with more of this it is lost to
   the
   tradition --- the dots allow the tradition to be recovered when
   insular
   players die off without training a disciple -
   flame on
   Dave Singleton
   Anthony Robb wrote:
   >Hello Francis
   > I am well aware of Colin's abrasive nature and have
   >disagreed with him over details of the repertoire and other
   issues, but
   >he is a rare beast in that he understands that we are dealing with
   a
   >fundamentally oral tradition here. A tradition that needs to be
   learnt
   >through 90% listening and 10% playing. If the dots are used they
   need
   >to be informed by true insight into the nuances displayed within
   the
   >spectrum of  traditional players. It seems that this approach is
   not
   >fully appreciated by all in authority in our Society and that
   worries
   >quite a few of us.
   >As aye
   >Anthony
   >
   >
   >--- On Tue, 26/5/09, Francis Wood <[1]oatenp...@googlemail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   >  From: Francis Wood <[2]oatenp...@googlemail.com>
   >  Subject: Re: [NSP] F.a.o. Francis & others
   >  To: "Anthony Robb" <[3]anth...@robbpipes.com>
   >  Cc: "Dartmouth NPS" <[4]...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >  Date: Tuesday, 26 May, 2009, 7:54 PM
   >
   >On 26 May 2009, at 16:53, Anthony Robb wrote:
   >>   Mmmma| rather harsh Francis.
   >Hello Anthony,
   >I'm not sure I've really tried 'harsh' . . .
   >'Robust' might do quite well. I'd add 'fair'. We'll probably not
   agree
   >on that one.
   >Francis
   >P. S.  I'll leave it to anyone else to respond point by point to
   >Anthony's mail if they have a mind to do so. I'd advise adherence
   to
   >known facts, awareness that the issue is not only painful but
   complex,
   >some regard for the integrity of those people who have already
   posted
   >thoughtfully and carefully on this subject and above all, due
   >consideration for the welfare of the person this is really all
   about.
   >May I also reiterate my confidence in the NPS Committee and their
   >decision. I base this on my knowledge of the people serving on the
   >Committee and my admiration of their integrity and administrative
   >abilities.
   >
   >--
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   ---
   -
   >
   >
   > No virus found in this incoming message.
   > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
   > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.42/2137 - Release Date:
   05/27/09 07:50:00
   >
   >

   --

References

   1. http://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oatenp...@googlemail.com
   2. http://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=oatenp...@googlemail.com
   3. http://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=anth...@robbpipes.com
   4. http://uk.mc862.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Anthony Robb]

   Hello Julia
   Many thanks for that. It seems to me that Billy Pigg did quite a bit of
   choyting. Is this the case?
   Regards
   Anthony
   --- On Tue, 14/4/09, julia@nspipes.co.uk 
   wrote:

 From: julia@nspipes.co.uk 
 Subject: [NSP] Re: Style
 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu, "Anthony Robb" 
 Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 1:38 PM

   On 14 Apr 2009, Anthony Robb wrote:
   >What, pray, is choyting??
   Tom Clough writing to Will Cocks in early 1920s:
   "When quite a youngster an old piper of last century and a splendid
   performer (Thomas Todd?) gave me very simple and very grand advice:
   "If you want to be a good piper, listen to a linnet, and make your
   chanter as clear and as distinct. A good linnet never choytes, and
   neither should a good piper". To choyte a note means to attempt to
   grace a note after the manner of a Highland piper. Gracing notes is a
   fine art and only acquired by long and careful practice. "
   The supposition that it is Thomas Todd of whom he is speaking is mine
   - it appears in italic in the Clough book, from which this extract is
   taken.
   Hope this helps
   Julia
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Julia . Say]

On 14 Apr 2009, Anthony Robb wrote: 

>What, pray, is choyting??

Tom Clough writing to Will Cocks in early 1920s:

"When quite a youngster an old piper of last century and a splendid 
performer (Thomas Todd?) gave me very simple and very grand advice:
"If you want to be a good piper, listen to a linnet, and make your 
chanter as clear and as distinct. A good linnet never choytes, and 
neither should a good piper". To choyte a note means to attempt to 
grace a note after the manner of a Highland piper. Gracing notes is a 
fine art and only acquired by long and careful practice. "

The supposition that it is Thomas Todd of whom he is speaking is mine 
- it appears in italic in the Clough book, from which this extract is 
taken.


Hope this helps
Julia



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Anthony Robb]

   Hellos apiece
   What, pray, is choyting??
   As aye
   Anthony
   --- On Tue, 14/4/09, colin  wrote:

 From: colin 
 Subject: [NSP] Re: Style
 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 14 April, 2009, 12:27 PM

   I'm quite enjoying this debate.
   As a total "outsider", it's very interesting to hear what appears to be
   two totally opposing sides.
   The first are those that play the pipes in the time-honoured tradition
   - both in style and technique and the second those that play for
   enjoyment and are not afraid to "bend the rules" if they feel that an
   "unusual" technique or sound suits them.
   The problem seems to come when the two collide.
   I really do feel that we should keep the two separate though because
   they cannot be discussed in the same area (chalk and cheese).
   For competitions and tutoring, we are talking about the "correct"
   method of playing (the "no choyting please" group) which, I think, is
   quite correct. Compare it to vegetable growing,
   I've seen teeny-weeny carrots win first prize because their roots (like
   a bit of string) are several feet long. The orange bit would go in one
   bite - but that's competition rules.
   Most of us would prefer tiny roots and a real whopper of a carrot but
   that doesn't win prizes.
   That doesn't mean big carrots are no good.
   It's a different outcome you see.
   Competitions have strict rules (correctly) but that doesn't mean that
   nothing else is valid.
   Although I do run with the "proper" way of playing, I feel that any
   instrument can be played as the player wishes - be that technique or
   style.
   I never personally like Chuck Berry or Jimmi Hendrix playing guitar but
   many did.
   I'm not a jazz fan but accept that sometimes unusual ways of playing
   are valid.
   One could have a similar debate about the correct way of playing
   anything at all.
   Yes, closed fingering is how it was designed and we do have a set of
   pipes that can be played either way already over in Ireland.
   Maybe some people want the same thing with NSP rather than play them
   closed and switch to Scottish small pipes for open?
   May sound odd to us but the right to "do our own thing" remains. We
   don't have to like it, of course :)
   We'll never all agree.
   Hopefully the two can co-exist.
   Colin Hill
   - Original Message - From: <[1]christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu>
   To: <[2]anth...@robbpipes.com>; <[3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:47 AM
   Subject: [NSP] Re: Style
   > If a person ignores this
   > completely from
   >   the outset then the product may not be wrong but it is certainly
   >   misguided. Let pipers take the music in any direction they
   > wish but to
   >   have any connection with Northumbrian piping as such they must
   spend
   >   time studying the starting point thoroughly before setting
   > off on their
   >   journey.
   I wholeheartedly degree with this formulation.
   I think the problem is that people are using "style" and "technique"
   interchangeably. The instruments I know most about and have taught a
   bit are the bowed strings (mainly viola). In teaching I would stress
   various basic techniques (such as drawing a steady bow and observing
   the point of content, the pressure and the speed, for example)
   on-the-string staccato with the bow, off-the-string staccato, "correct
   shifting" (left thumb and forearm `a la trombone - the usual modern
   correct classical technique) as well as "correct" glissando technique
   (use your left thumb as a reference point by the heel of the neck and
   slide the fingers up and down -  technique advocated by Ruggiero Ricci
   q.v. and based on his exploration of Paganini, N.B. whose fingering was
   unconventional. Swarbrick also did it, but i think he only used first
   and third position) and a whole range of other aspects - irrespective
   of what kind of music they intended to play.
   I would also encourage pupils to play different "styles" of music
   irrespective of what they intended to concentrate on. Bach specialists
   should also study Paganini and folk fiddling, for example.
   Of course "staccato technique" is essential for gaining control of the
   NSP as an instrument but once you've got it I don't think it's a very
   musical idea to just go around demonstrating one's staccato technique
   like opera singers their brute power and vibrato.
   And of course, style and technique inevitably overlap.
   >   If people dont see the point in doing this then chosing to
   >   play an out and out traditional instrument seems a bit daft in the
   >   first place.
   >
   This is also very true.
   On a personal note,

[NSP] Re: Style

[Paul Gretton]

Well the first name that springs to mind is the wonderful Natalie Dessay
-swoon! drool! -- or a few octaves lower Gottlob Frick. And Lauri-Volpi in
the middle.

But closer to where you are, and thinking about power (actually projection)
and vibrato (actually lack of it) how about a trip to Cologne for their
current production of Tristan und Isolde? Richard Decker and Annalena
Persson sing wonderfully and they look marvellous too. A terrific
production.

Cheers,

Paul Gretton


-Original Message-
From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu]

Sent: 14 April 2009 13:06
To: i...@gretton-willems.com
Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Re: Style

>I think you need to listen to more (good) opera singers, mate!


Maybe. Who would you suggest?
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[colin]

I'm quite enjoying this debate.
As a total "outsider", it's very interesting to hear what appears to be two 
totally opposing sides.
The first are those that play the pipes in the time-honoured tradition - 
both in style and technique and the second those that play for enjoyment and 
are not afraid to "bend the rules" if they feel that an "unusual" technique 
or sound suits them.

The problem seems to come when the two collide.
I really do feel that we should keep the two separate though because they 
cannot be discussed in the same area (chalk and cheese).
For competitions and tutoring, we are talking about the "correct" method of 
playing (the "no choyting please" group) which, I think, is quite correct. 
Compare it to vegetable growing,
I've seen teeny-weeny carrots win first prize because their roots (like a 
bit of string) are several feet long. The orange bit would go in one bite - 
but that's competition rules.
Most of us would prefer tiny roots and a real whopper of a carrot but that 
doesn't win prizes.

That doesn't mean big carrots are no good.
It's a different outcome you see.
Competitions have strict rules (correctly) but that doesn't mean that 
nothing else is valid.
Although I do run with the "proper" way of playing, I feel that any 
instrument can be played as the player wishes - be that technique or style.
I never personally like Chuck Berry or Jimmi Hendrix playing guitar but many 
did.
I'm not a jazz fan but accept that sometimes unusual ways of playing are 
valid.
One could have a similar debate about the correct way of playing anything at 
all.
Yes, closed fingering is how it was designed and we do have a set of pipes 
that can be played either way already over in Ireland.
Maybe some people want the same thing with NSP rather than play them closed 
and switch to Scottish small pipes for open?
May sound odd to us but the right to "do our own thing" remains. We don't 
have to like it, of course :)

We'll never all agree.
Hopefully the two can co-exist.

Colin Hill


- Original Message - 
From: 

To: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:47 AM
Subject: [NSP] Re: Style






If a person ignores this
completely from
  the outset then the product may not be wrong but it is certainly
  misguided. Let pipers take the music in any direction they
wish but to
  have any connection with Northumbrian piping as such they must spend
  time studying the starting point thoroughly before setting
off on their
  journey.



I wholeheartedly degree with this formulation.

I think the problem is that people are using "style" and "technique" 
interchangeably. The instruments I know most about and have taught a bit are 
the bowed strings (mainly viola). In teaching I would stress various basic 
techniques (such as drawing a steady bow and observing the point of content, 
the pressure and the speed, for example) on-the-string staccato with the 
bow, off-the-string staccato, "correct shifting" (left thumb and forearm à 
la trombone - the usual modern correct classical technique) as well as 
"correct" glissando technique (use your left thumb as a reference point by 
the heel of the neck and slide the fingers up and down -  technique 
advocated by Ruggiero Ricci q.v. and based on his exploration of Paganini, 
N.B. whose fingering was unconventional. Swarbrick also did it, but i think 
he only used first and third position) and a whole range of other aspects - 
irrespective of what kind of music they intended to play.


I would also encourage pupils to play different "styles" of music 
irrespective of what they intended to concentrate on. Bach specialists 
should also study Paganini and folk fiddling, for example.


Of course "staccato technique" is essential for gaining control of the NSP 
as an instrument but once you've got it I don't think it's a very musical 
idea to just go around demonstrating one's staccato technique like opera 
singers their brute power and vibrato.


And of course, style and technique inevitably overlap.



  If people dont see the point in doing this then chosing to
  play an out and out traditional instrument seems a bit daft in the
  first place.




This is also very true.

On a personal note, I am a very humble musician when it comes to practical 
skills (mainly a mid-level hard-practicing semi-pro classical hack, but with 
experience in everything from traditional to progrock) but since I was an 
adult beginner (a long time ago) and am rather obsessive about music (the 
nearest thing I have to a religion!), I think I tend to reflect on and 
analyse all the various aspects to a possibly unusual (or excessive) degree. 
I also flatter myself by thinking that some of my conclusions may have a 
certain validity.


So...
Apologies to anyone to whom my assertiveness - born of enthusiam - may ever 
have come over as bumptiousness.


c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Christopher.Birch]

>I think you need to listen to more (good) opera singers, mate!


Maybe. Who would you suggest?
c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Paul Gretton]

Chris wrote:

>>like opera singers their brute power and vibrato

I think you need to listen to more (good) opera singers, mate!

Cheers,

Paul Gretton



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Christopher.Birch]

>Hooray. At last, something I can agree with publicly. I'm trying to 
>call it detached fingering (or tenuto for the technically minded), 
>rather than staccato, but that's a minor detail.
>

Right! And remember "staccato" does not mean "short". It means 
"separated". "Detached/detaché" on the violin just means separate bows (with no 
gap in the sound).

And of course I meant "off-the-string s p i c c a t o". So many conductors have 
the habit of saying "staccato" when spicc is really what they want that it's 
catching. And they also have a tendency to say "legato" when they mean "broad 
detached" (legato means slurring more than one note in a single bow stroke).
 
chirs



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Christopher.Birch]

 

>If a person ignores this 
>completely from
>   the outset then the product may not be wrong but it is certainly
>   misguided. Let pipers take the music in any direction they 
>wish but to
>   have any connection with Northumbrian piping as such they must spend
>   time studying the starting point thoroughly before setting 
>off on their
>   journey.


I wholeheartedly degree with this formulation.

I think the problem is that people are using "style" and "technique" 
interchangeably. The instruments I know most about and have taught a bit are 
the bowed strings (mainly viola). In teaching I would stress various basic 
techniques (such as drawing a steady bow and observing the point of content, 
the pressure and the speed, for example) on-the-string staccato with the bow, 
off-the-string staccato, "correct shifting" (left thumb and forearm à la 
trombone - the usual modern correct classical technique) as well as "correct" 
glissando technique (use your left thumb as a reference point by the heel of 
the neck and slide the fingers up and down -  technique advocated by Ruggiero 
Ricci q.v. and based on his exploration of Paganini, N.B. whose fingering was 
unconventional. Swarbrick also did it, but i think he only used first and third 
position) and a whole range of other aspects - irrespective of what kind of 
music they intended to play.

I would also encourage pupils to play different "styles" of music irrespective 
of what they intended to concentrate on. Bach specialists should also study 
Paganini and folk fiddling, for example.

Of course "staccato technique" is essential for gaining control of the NSP as 
an instrument but once you've got it I don't think it's a very musical idea to 
just go around demonstrating one's staccato technique like opera singers their 
brute power and vibrato.

And of course, style and technique inevitably overlap.
   

>   If people dont see the point in doing this then chosing to
>   play an out and out traditional instrument seems a bit daft in the
>   first place.
>


This is also very true.

On a personal note, I am a very humble musician when it comes to practical 
skills (mainly a mid-level hard-practicing semi-pro classical hack, but with 
experience in everything from traditional to progrock) but since I was an adult 
beginner (a long time ago) and am rather obsessive about music (the nearest 
thing I have to a religion!), I think I tend to reflect on and analyse all the 
various aspects to a possibly unusual (or excessive) degree. I also flatter 
myself by thinking that some of my conclusions may have a certain validity.

So...
Apologies to anyone to whom my assertiveness - born of enthusiam - may ever 
have come over as bumptiousness.

c



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Paul Gretton]

EXACTLY!!!

Cheers,

Paul Gretton

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] 
Sent: 14 April 2009 12:01
To: Dartmouth NPS
Subject: [NSP] Style


   >Something may be "wrong" when playing a given style music (like
   playing jazz as if it >was classical and vice versa) but describing a
   style as "wrong in itself" can only be >regarded as narrow-mindedness -
   can't it?
   c


   I'm not sure it's as simple as this Chris. In order to develop
   any music genre and move it intelligently and logically on from where
   it is surely requires knowledge and expertise in that genre.

   The pipes were designed to provide a staccato (or at least a separated
   note) foundation to the music. If a person ignores this completely from
   the outset then the product may not be wrong but it is certainly
   misguided. Let pipers take the music in any direction they wish but to
   have any connection with Northumbrian piping as such they must spend
   time studying the starting point thoroughly before setting off on their
   journey. If people dont see the point in doing this then chosing to
   play an out and out traditional instrument seems a bit daft in the
   first place.

   Regards

   Anthony


   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[NSP] Re: Style

[Julia . Say]

On 14 Apr 2009, Anthony Robb wrote: 

>The pipes were designed to provide a staccato (or at least a
>separated note) foundation to the music. If a person ignores this
>completely from the outset then the product may not be wrong but it
>is certainly misguided. Let pipers take the music in any direction
>they wish but to have any connection with Northumbrian piping as
>such they must spend time studying the starting point thoroughly
>before setting off on their journey. If people dont see the point
>in doing this then chosing to play an out and out traditional
>instrument seems a bit daft in the first place.


Hooray. At last, something I can agree with publicly. I'm trying to 
call it detached fingering (or tenuto for the technically minded), 
rather than staccato, but that's a minor detail.

Julia




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html