[NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Joel C. Salomon]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Hans Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> luatex + context mkiv is indeed independent [of Ruby]
>
> - index sorting takes place in mkiv
> - job control is done with mtxrun/mtx-context

Now that I've been told the idea is at least possible, I've been
thinking about how to generate a micro-minimal mkiv distribution: no
fonts except the LM set, no engines except luaTeX, no kpathsea, &
preferably no external dependencies (perl, ruby, &c.).

So how to best go about this?  I'm downloading the current minimals
(or should I use the .zips at
?); what can I cut out?

--Joel
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Hans Hagen]

Joel C. Salomon wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Hans Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> luatex + context mkiv is indeed independent [of Ruby]
>>
>> - index sorting takes place in mkiv
>> - job control is done with mtxrun/mtx-context
> 
> Now that I've been told the idea is at least possible, I've been
> thinking about how to generate a micro-minimal mkiv distribution: no
> fonts except the LM set, no engines except luaTeX, no kpathsea, &
> preferably no external dependencies (perl, ruby, &c.).
> 
> So how to best go about this?  I'm downloading the current minimals
> (or should I use the .zips at
> ?); what can I cut out?

use the minimals from the garden .. the zips will go away (apart from 
the cont-* zips)

one option is to write a dedicated fetch script, load the minimals for 
luatex use only (is an option) and then look at the files you need

i wonder if it's worth the trouble because all you get extra on top of 
lm is tex gyre open type


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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Hans Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joel C. Salomon wrote:
>  > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Hans Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >> luatex + context mkiv is indeed independent [of Ruby]
>  >>
>  >> - index sorting takes place in mkiv
>  >> - job control is done with mtxrun/mtx-context
>  >
>  > Now that I've been told the idea is at least possible, I've been
>  > thinking about how to generate a micro-minimal mkiv distribution: no
>  > fonts except the LM set, no engines except luaTeX, no kpathsea, &
>  > preferably no external dependencies (perl, ruby, &c.).
>  >
>  > So how to best go about this?  I'm downloading the current minimals
>  > (or should I use the .zips at
>  > ?); what can I cut out?
>
>  use the minimals from the garden .. the zips will go away (apart from
>  the cont-* zips)
>
>  one option is to write a dedicated fetch script, load the minimals for
>  luatex use only (is an option) and then look at the files you need
>
>  i wonder if it's worth the trouble because all you get extra on top of
>  lm is tex gyre open type

There are many other OpenType fonts that get fetched by default as
well. And maybe the whole bin/common can be left out in that case
(maybe windows still needs some libraries).

So there is still some space that could be saved.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Joel C. Salomon]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 3:42 AM, Hans Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  one option is to write a dedicated fetch script, load the minimals for
>  luatex use only (is an option) and then look at the files you need

Any clues for how to go about this?

>  i wonder if it's worth the trouble because all you get extra on top of
>  lm is tex gyre open type

I wasn't being dogmatic about cutting out all other fonts; just wanted
to avoid the old TeX-style pfb/vfb/&c. messes.  LM+Gyre is fine.

What I have in mind is a small package with SciTE & the
ultra-minimals, with a launcher like the portableapps.com programs
have that will set the appropriate environment variables.  Include
SciTE or Notepad++ (with a stripped-down set of configuration files,
perhaps; just enough for ConTeXt/lua/mp) and Sumatra PDF Portable, and
you've got a complete, truly stand-alone, modern typesetting
environment on a USB stick.

--Joel
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Joel C. Salomon]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Mojca Miklavec
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  There are many other OpenType fonts that get fetched by default as
>  well. And maybe the whole bin/common can be left out in that case
>  (maybe windows still needs some libraries).
>
>  So there is still some space that could be saved.

See my reply to Hans (about five minutes before this message); it's
complexity of installation and options, not disc usage, that I'm
trying to minimize.

--Joel
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[luigi scarso]

>  See my reply to Hans (about five minutes before this message); it's
>  complexity of installation and options, not disc usage, that I'm
>  trying to minimize.
A bit off-topic:
mayb we can also think a context-live iso img.

-- 
luigi
it's new .
it's powerful .
it's luatex .
http://www.luatex.org
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 3:42 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
>  >  one option is to write a dedicated fetch script, load the minimals for
>  >  luatex use only (is an option) and then look at the files you need
>
>  Any clues for how to go about this?

There are two options:
1.) take a look at first-setup.sh (really stupid script); you can call
mtx-update with "--engine=luatex" and then you won't get almost any
tfm/enc/map files; you still get pfb files as they are needed for
math; and you get quite some helvetica/times enc/map/pfb files since
px & tx math fonts need them (needed for gyre) - this will go away
once gyre math is ready; it could be optimized, but I consider trying
to fix virtual fonts to use gyre instead of urw fonts a loss of time
since it's soon going to be obsolete rather soon anyway

2.) you can write your own set of rsync calls, like:

rsync -av rsync://contextgarden.net'/minimals/current/fonts/new/
minimals/current/fonts/common/' texmf-fonts
rsync -av rsync://contextgarden.net'/minimals/current/bin/context/linux
minimals/current/bin/luatex/linux/' texmf-linux

>
>  >  i wonder if it's worth the trouble because all you get extra on top of
>  >  lm is tex gyre open type
>
>  I wasn't being dogmatic about cutting out all other fonts; just wanted
>  to avoid the old TeX-style pfb/vfb/&c. messes.  LM+Gyre is fine.
>
>  What I have in mind is a small package with SciTE & the
>  ultra-minimals, with a launcher like the portableapps.com programs
>  have that will set the appropriate environment variables.  Include
>  SciTE or Notepad++ (with a stripped-down set of configuration files,
>  perhaps; just enough for ConTeXt/lua/mp) and Sumatra PDF Portable, and
>  you've got a complete, truly stand-alone, modern typesetting
>  environment on a USB stick.

If you're willing to work on it, just tell me what exactly you need (I
can put different stuff on the garden).

See also:
   http://minimals.contextgarden.net/setup/context-installer/src/
you can then start from there.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 4:43 PM, Mojca Miklavec
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 4:32 PM, luigi scarso wrote:
>  > >  See my reply to Hans (about five minutes before this message); it's
>  >  >  complexity of installation and options, not disc usage, that I'm
>  >  >  trying to minimize.
>  >  A bit off-topic:
>  >  mayb we can also think a context-live iso img.
>
>  I have already done it once (perl and ruby added to the CD, and
>  formats generated), and one could be prepared at/for the conference.
>  However, I have no idea how sensible the formats are (if you prepare a
>  live CD with slightly different versions of pdfTeX for different
>  platforms - probably that's not going to work?) And luatex should then
>  put its cache into temp.
What about an image to run with a virtual machine ?

>
>  Mojca
>
>  PS: but the main problem with CD is that you cannot update it, so it
>  probably gets old before you even manage to burn it
Are you sure ?
pdftex is frozen (almost), .
I have a production with a context 4 years old.
Context (in some...contexts)  stay pretty young.

-- 
luigi
it's new .
it's powerful .
it's luatex .
http://www.luatex.org
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 4:32 PM, luigi scarso wrote:
> >  See my reply to Hans (about five minutes before this message); it's
>  >  complexity of installation and options, not disc usage, that I'm
>  >  trying to minimize.
>  A bit off-topic:
>  mayb we can also think a context-live iso img.

I have already done it once (perl and ruby added to the CD, and
formats generated), and one could be prepared at/for the conference.
However, I have no idea how sensible the formats are (if you prepare a
live CD with slightly different versions of pdfTeX for different
platforms - probably that's not going to work?) And luatex should then
put its cache into temp.

Mojca

PS: but the main problem with CD is that you cannot update it, so it
probably gets old before you even manage to burn it
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Martin Schröder]

2008/4/11, luigi scarso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> What about an image to run with a virtual machine ?

Much better.

Best
   Martin
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Joel C. Salomon]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Mojca Miklavec
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Any clues for how to go about this?
>
> There are two options:
> 1.) take a look at first-setup.sh (really stupid script); you can call
> mtx-update with "--engine=luatex"

As opposed to "--engine=all"?  Sounds good so far.  But...

> you still get pfb files as they are needed for math; and you get quite
> some helvetica/times enc/map/pfb files since px & tx math fonts need
> them (needed for gyre) - this will go away once gyre math is ready;

I suppose that a "legacy-free" TeX will have to wait a bit...

Slight tangent: Is there any support for using any of the OpenType
math fonts (I know of Cambria Math, STIX, and Asana Math—this last on
tug.org) in mkiv?

> 2.) you can write your own set of rsync calls, like:

> See also:
>   http://minimals.contextgarden.net/setup/context-installer/src/
> you can then start from there.

Looking into it.

> > What I have in mind is a small package with …
> > a complete, truly stand-alone, modern typesetting
> > environment on a USB stick.
>
> If you're willing to work on it, just tell me what exactly you need (I
> can put different stuff on the garden).

Can't promise a lot of time, but it's something I need so I'll work on it.

--Joel
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Hans Hagen]

Joel C. Salomon wrote:

> Slight tangent: Is there any support for using any of the OpenType
> math fonts (I know of Cambria Math, STIX, and Asana Math—this last on
> tug.org) in mkiv?

cambria ... probably in the near future (as tex gyre will also have math 
and), since stix is type 1 and spread over many fonts, it will not be 
supported (that is: i will not make the typescripts for pdftex, but 
someoneelse may see it as a challenge)

H

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  | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Joel C. Salomon]

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 3:02 AM, Hans Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Slight tangent: Is there any support for using any of the OpenType
>  > math fonts (I know of Cambria Math, STIX, and Asana Math—this last on
>  > tug.org) in mkiv?
>
>  cambria ... probably in the near future (as tex gyre will also have math
>  and), since stix is type 1 and spread over many fonts, it will not be
>  supported (that is: i will not make the typescripts for pdftex, but
>  someoneelse may see it as a challenge)

So will Stix be supported in mkiv or ConTeXt+XeTeX?

--Joel
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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Hans Hagen]

Joel C. Salomon wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 3:02 AM, Hans Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  > Slight tangent: Is there any support for using any of the OpenType
>>  > math fonts (I know of Cambria Math, STIX, and Asana Math—this last on
>>  > tug.org) in mkiv?
>>
>>  cambria ... probably in the near future (as tex gyre will also have math
>>  and), since stix is type 1 and spread over many fonts, it will not be
>>  supported (that is: i will not make the typescripts for pdftex, but
>>  someoneelse may see it as a challenge)
> 
> So will Stix be supported in mkiv or ConTeXt+XeTeX?

quite probably not

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Re: [NTG-context] ConTeXt ultraminimals (was re: Perl/Ruby dependency)

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Joel C. Salomon wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 3:02 AM, Hans Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>  > Slight tangent: Is there any support for using any of the OpenType
>>>  > math fonts (I know of Cambria Math, STIX, and Asana Math—this last on
>>>  > tug.org) in mkiv?
>>>
>>>  cambria ... probably in the near future (as tex gyre will also have math
>>>  and), since stix is type 1 and spread over many fonts, it will not be
>>>  supported (that is: i will not make the typescripts for pdftex, but
>>>  someoneelse may see it as a challenge)
>> So will Stix be supported in mkiv or ConTeXt+XeTeX?
> 
> quite probably not

You can read that as:

   It depends on whether the released version of the Stix fonts will
   be packaged in a predictable manner.

It should either follow the cambria math example (otf, for mkiv) or
the cm/ams example (pfb, for mkii) to make it work in context.
 From the beta program so far, neither seems to be likely to happen,
but we will have to wait and see (some more).


Best wishes,
Taco
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