Re: [NTG-context] Difficulties with learning about ConTeXt

2017-10-24 Thread N. Raghavendra 
At 2017-10-23T21:49:26+02:00, Pablo Rodriguez wrote:

> It is fine that you ask what the wiki can do for you. But when you find
> the solution to your problem, consider what you can do for the wiki.
>
> Expanding the wiki is the reverse action from replying questions. The
> wiki requieres time too.

Dear Pablo,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.  It was useful to read it.  As
you say, one can contribute to the Wiki, and I will try to do so.

> In my experience, what you learnt from LaTeX won’t be helpful to use
> with ConTeXt.

This is absolutely true, and I don't have any problem about starting
from scratch with a new typesetting system.  However, the returns seem
worth the effort, given the control that ConTeXt provides to the user,
the integral feel, and its high level facilities.  So, thanks again.

Regards,
Raghu.

-- 
N. Raghavendra , http://www.retrotexts.net/
Harish-Chandra Research Institute, http://www.hri.res.in/
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Re: [NTG-context] Difficulties with learning about ConTeXt

2017-10-23 Thread Pablo Rodriguez 
On 10/23/2017 12:40 PM, N. Raghavendra wrote:
> I am a mathematician, and have been using LaTeX on a daily basis since
> 1992, when I was a graduate student.  I have recently started using
> ConTeXt, and am very happy with the facilities it provides, and with its
> self-contained system which does not require one to load external
> packages with subtle interactions.

Hi Raghu,

my experience with LaTeX was brief when compared with yours: about seven
years. I think I may be using ConTeXt for almost a decade.

My background is in humanities. I cannot code, although I may read and
understand very basic scripts. I simply don’t do math (it’s all Greek to
me).

The most useful ConTeXt feature for me is the handling of XML files as
source files for text.

> One problem that I am facing is that the documentation of ConTeXt is
> often not enough for me to figure out what to do when a problem arises.
> I understand that documentation is perhaps not a priority for the
> project.  As Hans Hagen wrote in `? Context',
> 
>   "... writing can get a lower priority in a time when quick and dirty
>answers can be found on the internet, mailing list or wiki.  ... For
>what it's worth: whenever I have to solve a problem with a program
>(or language implementation) I run into cases where I have to look
>long to find (non conflicting) information. It just comes with the
>problems one wants to solve and TeX (ConTeXt) is not different."

When I started learning ConTeXt, I thought it wasn’t well documented. I
changed my mind since that.

I understand that writing documentation may not be a priority for Hans,
becase:

- He is the main developer of ConTeXt and LuaTeX.

- He fixes the bugs users or developers report.

- He kindly implements reasonable requests for new features.

- He checks the mailing list and replies to some of the questions.

- He still writes documentation for many of the ConTeXt features (not
  only literate programming).

In my personal case, many bugs and new requests were fixed or
implemented in less than a week. (I wish it would be the same at work,
where we have paid support.)

I’m not the only user that has experienced that. Hans may be not writing
documentation, because he focuses on other (more important) aspects of
ConTeXt development.

I would like to write a manual for ConTeXt. But it will be in Spanish, I
may need years, and it will be limited to my own experience.

The wiki is an informal invitation to the users to document the issues
the were able to solve.

Hans explained his take on the documentation some years ago:
https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2010/047500.html.

> However, there is not a great deal of information on the Internet about
> solving ConTeXt problems.  Whenever I ran into a LaTeX problem in the
> last several years, I used to find a solution, or a substantial step
> towards one, that was already documented on the TeX-LaTeX Stack
> Exchange.  Unfortunately, it does not contain a similar amount of
> information about ConTeXt.  In any case, I have started posting ConTeXt
> questions there, see https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/397463/146025 and
> https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/397607/146025

There is no secret that ConTeXt is way less popular than LaTeX. It is
even trickier to search for it (since context is also a rather common word).

I don’t know how many ConTeXt users are in the world. Probably the
number of LaTeX users is a hundred times the number of ConTeXt users.
This explains a lot of things in terms of written explanations.

Let me mention a single case. TUGs are TeX Users Groups, but most of its
participants are LaTeX users. The TeX Spanish mailing list has almost
400 participants. There may be other ConTeXt users on that list. But
LaTeX is by far the most common topic in the vast majority of messages.
My impression when I explain there basic ConTeXt features (such as
modes) is that I’m describing Martian life to the generation of my
grandparents (they have no clue of what I’m speaking about).

StackExchange and similar platforms are great, sure. But being
responsive to questions for users in the mailing list and in SE may be
too much for most of the users. At least, my day has only 24 hours ;-).

> As for the mailing list, I posted three requests for help here in the
> last one week.  When I bumped my first message after more than a day
> without any response, Tomas Hala kindly came to my rescue.  The other
> two messages, posted four and two days ago, have not elicited any
> response yet.  This contrasts with Aditya Mahajan's experience, which he
> describes in his interview at
> http://tex-talk.net/2012/08/textalk-an-interview-with-aditya/:
> 
>   "Most questions on the context mailing lists are answered within
>minutes ... look in the main manual and the wiki to see how to
>achieve the particular effects that you wanted, and if you cannot
>figure it out, ask on the context mailing list."

When the interview took place, the

Re: [NTG-context] Difficulties with learning about ConTeXt

2017-10-23 Thread N. Raghavendra 
At 2017-10-23T12:59:35+02:00, luigi scarso wrote:

> 1) test suite cont-tst.7z
> http://www.pragma-ade.nl/download-1.htm

Thank you, the test suite is likely to be a useful resource.

Regards,
Raghu.

-- 
N. Raghavendra , http://www.retrotexts.net/
Harish-Chandra Research Institute, http://www.hri.res.in/
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Re: [NTG-context] Difficulties with learning about ConTeXt

2017-10-23 Thread luigi scarso 
On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 12:40 PM, N. Raghavendra  wrote:
> I am a mathematician, and have been using LaTeX on a daily basis since
> 1992, when I was a graduate student.  I have recently started using
> ConTeXt, and am very happy with the facilities it provides, and with its
> self-contained system which does not require one to load external
> packages with subtle interactions.
>
> One problem that I am facing is that the documentation of ConTeXt is
> often not enough for me to figure out what to do when a problem arises.
> I understand that documentation is perhaps not a priority for the
> project.  As Hans Hagen wrote in `? Context',
>
>   "... writing can get a lower priority in a time when quick and dirty
>answers can be found on the internet, mailing list or wiki.  ... For
>what it's worth: whenever I have to solve a problem with a program
>(or language implementation) I run into cases where I have to look
>long to find (non conflicting) information. It just comes with the
>problems one wants to solve and TeX (ConTeXt) is not different."
>
> However, there is not a great deal of information on the Internet about
> solving ConTeXt problems.  Whenever I ran into a LaTeX problem in the
> last several years, I used to find a solution, or a substantial step
> towards one, that was already documented on the TeX-LaTeX Stack
> Exchange.  Unfortunately, it does not contain a similar amount of
> information about ConTeXt.  In any case, I have started posting ConTeXt
> questions there, see https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/397463/146025 and
> https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/397607/146025
>



These are the resources that I have found very useful:

0)interface files
tex/texmf-context/tex/context/interface/mkiv

1) test suite cont-tst.7z
http://www.pragma-ade.nl/download-1.htm

2) sources  of the pdf of the standalone,
tex/texmf-context/doc/context/sources/general

3) sources of modules
tex/texmf-context/tex/context/modules

4) source code of mkiv
tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv

5) the archives of emails
https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/


The ml is ok of course, but at some point you will develop your own
style of doing things,
and probably you will encapsulate it into a module.



-- 
luigi
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[NTG-context] Difficulties with learning about ConTeXt

2017-10-23 Thread N. Raghavendra 
I am a mathematician, and have been using LaTeX on a daily basis since
1992, when I was a graduate student.  I have recently started using
ConTeXt, and am very happy with the facilities it provides, and with its
self-contained system which does not require one to load external
packages with subtle interactions.

One problem that I am facing is that the documentation of ConTeXt is
often not enough for me to figure out what to do when a problem arises.
I understand that documentation is perhaps not a priority for the
project.  As Hans Hagen wrote in `? Context',

  "... writing can get a lower priority in a time when quick and dirty
   answers can be found on the internet, mailing list or wiki.  ... For
   what it's worth: whenever I have to solve a problem with a program
   (or language implementation) I run into cases where I have to look
   long to find (non conflicting) information. It just comes with the
   problems one wants to solve and TeX (ConTeXt) is not different."

However, there is not a great deal of information on the Internet about
solving ConTeXt problems.  Whenever I ran into a LaTeX problem in the
last several years, I used to find a solution, or a substantial step
towards one, that was already documented on the TeX-LaTeX Stack
Exchange.  Unfortunately, it does not contain a similar amount of
information about ConTeXt.  In any case, I have started posting ConTeXt
questions there, see https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/397463/146025 and
https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/397607/146025

As for the mailing list, I posted three requests for help here in the
last one week.  When I bumped my first message after more than a day
without any response, Tomas Hala kindly came to my rescue.  The other
two messages, posted four and two days ago, have not elicited any
response yet.  This contrasts with Aditya Mahajan's experience, which he
describes in his interview at
http://tex-talk.net/2012/08/textalk-an-interview-with-aditya/:

  "Most questions on the context mailing lists are answered within
   minutes ... look in the main manual and the wiki to see how to
   achieve the particular effects that you wanted, and if you cannot
   figure it out, ask on the context mailing list."

I understand that we are all busy, and it is not easy to find time to
answer novice queries on the list.

Lastly, I found the Wiki useful sometimes for quick and dirty solutions
to problems, and sometimes as a source of documentation.  Yet there have
been several cases where I could not find what I wanted in it.

For example, I could not find the answers to my last two queries on this
list and to my two questions on SE, in the manual, on the archives of
this list, or on the Wiki.

These problems mean that I have to spend much more time experimenting
and searching before I find a reasonable way to get the things I want
with ConTeXt.  Given the beauty of the results that ConTeXt returns, I
don't mind that.  However, I wonder if there are others who have similar
problems learning about ConTeXt, and if they have some words of advice
for me.  I am also interested in ways to help people with similar
difficulties.

Regards,
Raghu.

--
N. Raghavendra , http://www.retrotexts.net/
Harish-Chandra Research Institute, http://www.hri.res.in/
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