Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Eloi Gaudry]

I've done so, thanks for pointing the discussion.

In the meantime, I've just patched distutils/msvc9compiler.py so that it 
neither embed nor create a manifest assembly. This way, I'll be sure 
that the assembly information would be fetched from the main python (or 
python-based) binaries (i.e. pythonX.dll). That may be a very strong 
prerequisites in some cases, but never in my very particular case.

Eloi

Christoph Gohlke wrote:
> The most popular/simple way to deal with the VC90.CRT dependency issue 
> is to have the user install the runtime redistributable on their system. 
> If you don't want to put that burden on the user, which I understand, 
> you have to make adjustments to the assembly manifests. This is not 
> unofficial or unsupported. It is a bug in Python that it embeds the 
> assemblyIdentity for VC90.CRT in all extensions build with 
> distutils/msvc9compiler.py. In fact, the *.pyd distributed with Python 
> 2.6.3+ don't have that problem. Maybe you can raise your concerns about 
> future compatibility at .
>
> Christoph
>
> On 11/30/2009 1:11 AM, Eloi Gaudry wrote:
>   
>> Christoph, thanks for pointing this discussion. That's a perfect match.
>>
>> If the workaround provided offers a solution to the current
>> redistribution issue, I'm wondering if it will still be the case when an
>> update to the assembly check function will be activated/implemented
>> (within Windows).
>> The manifest edition (removing the "assemblyIdentity" tag) doesn't seem
>> to be a popular/official/supported way of dealing with the whole runtime
>> libraries issue. Don't you think ?
>> 
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Eloi Gaudry]

Thanks for these references (that's a pity we currently can't find 
anything related to runtime libraries versioning on the msdn database).

Eloi

David Cournapeau wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Eloi Gaudry  wrote:
>
>   
>> Well, I wasn't aware of Microsoft willing to giving up the whole
>> SxS/manifest thing. Is there any MSDN information available?
>> 
>
> I have seen this mentioned for the first time on the python-dev ML:
>
> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/python-dev/3764855
>
> The mention of including the version in the dll file, if true, is
> tragically comic. Maybe in 20 years windows will be able to have a
> system which exists for more than a decade on conventional unix... The
> link given by M.A Lemburg has changed since, though, as the
> description is nowhere to be found in the link. I think I have read
> that VS 2010 will never install the runtime in the SxS configuration,
> but I of course cannot find this information anymore. Maybe it is not
> true anymore, VS 2010 has not yet been released.
>
> You can also find useful manifest troubleshooting information there:
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/junfeng/archive/2006/04/14/576314.aspx
>
> cheers,
>
> David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Christoph Gohlke]

The most popular/simple way to deal with the VC90.CRT dependency issue 
is to have the user install the runtime redistributable on their system. 
If you don't want to put that burden on the user, which I understand, 
you have to make adjustments to the assembly manifests. This is not 
unofficial or unsupported. It is a bug in Python that it embeds the 
assemblyIdentity for VC90.CRT in all extensions build with 
distutils/msvc9compiler.py. In fact, the *.pyd distributed with Python 
2.6.3+ don't have that problem. Maybe you can raise your concerns about 
future compatibility at .

Christoph

On 11/30/2009 1:11 AM, Eloi Gaudry wrote:
> Christoph, thanks for pointing this discussion. That's a perfect match.
>
> If the workaround provided offers a solution to the current
> redistribution issue, I'm wondering if it will still be the case when an
> update to the assembly check function will be activated/implemented
> (within Windows).
> The manifest edition (removing the "assemblyIdentity" tag) doesn't seem
> to be a popular/official/supported way of dealing with the whole runtime
> libraries issue. Don't you think ?
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Sturla Molden]

David Cournapeau skrev:
> We are talking about the numpy extensions here, which are not
> installed through the install_data command. The problem is about how
> windows looks for dll with the manifest mechanism, and how to
> build/install extensions when the C runtime (or any other "system"
> dll) is not installed in the SxS cache.
>   
Is COM (aka ActiveX) out of the question?


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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Sturla Molden]

David Cournapeau skrev:
> We are talking about the numpy extensions here, which are not
> installed through the install_data command. The problem is about how
> windows looks for dll with the manifest mechanism, and how to
> build/install extensions when the C runtime (or any other "system"
> dll) is not installed in the SxS cache.
>   
Do we need to support Windows 2000?

S.M.

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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Sturla Molden  wrote:
> David Cournapeau skrev:
>> If every python package starts to put its extensions (*.pyd) into a
>> directory, what happens when two different packages have an extension
>> with the same name (e.g. package foo has a package multiarray.pyd) ? I
>> would also be really annoyed if a 3rd party extension starts polluting
>> my C:\Python26.
>>
>>
> In disutils, data_files can install DLLs where Python wants them. Just
> pass 'DLLs' as path, and the rest it up to distutils. If anyone pollutes
> your c:\Python26 it is distutils, not a third party extension. This is
> not any different from installing other data files.

We are talking about the numpy extensions here, which are not
installed through the install_data command. The problem is about how
windows looks for dll with the manifest mechanism, and how to
build/install extensions when the C runtime (or any other "system"
dll) is not installed in the SxS cache.

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Sturla Molden]

David Cournapeau skrev:
> If every python package starts to put its extensions (*.pyd) into a
> directory, what happens when two different packages have an extension
> with the same name (e.g. package foo has a package multiarray.pyd) ? I
> would also be really annoyed if a 3rd party extension starts polluting
> my C:\Python26.
>
>   
In disutils, data_files can install DLLs where Python wants them. Just 
pass 'DLLs' as path, and the rest it up to distutils. If anyone pollutes 
your c:\Python26 it is distutils, not a third party extension. This is 
not any different from installing other data files.

Sturla

 





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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Eloi Gaudry  wrote:

>
> Well, I wasn't aware of Microsoft willing to giving up the whole
> SxS/manifest thing. Is there any MSDN information available?

I have seen this mentioned for the first time on the python-dev ML:

http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/python-dev/3764855

The mention of including the version in the dll file, if true, is
tragically comic. Maybe in 20 years windows will be able to have a
system which exists for more than a decade on conventional unix... The
link given by M.A Lemburg has changed since, though, as the
description is nowhere to be found in the link. I think I have read
that VS 2010 will never install the runtime in the SxS configuration,
but I of course cannot find this information anymore. Maybe it is not
true anymore, VS 2010 has not yet been released.

You can also find useful manifest troubleshooting information there:

http://blogs.msdn.com/junfeng/archive/2006/04/14/576314.aspx

cheers,

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Eloi Gaudry]

David Cournapeau wrote:
> Eloi Gaudry wrote:
>   
>> David, I think that what Christoph pointed here applies to the msvc 
>> built libraries only (I need to build the whole python/extensions using 
>> msvc).
>>   
>> 
>
> Ok, I did not understand that point. Do you know if the patch discussed
> in 4120 has been applied to 2.6.4 ? 
>   
I don't think so... I'm using 2.6.4 and still wondering how to 
circumvent the runtime redistribution issue.
>   
>> May I ask you what re the "clashes between extensions" you were 
>> referring to in your previous answer ? Have you already encountered such 
>> issues ?
>>   
>> 
>
> If every python package starts to put its extensions (*.pyd) into a
> directory, what happens when two different packages have an extension
> with the same name (e.g. package foo has a package multiarray.pyd) ? I
> would also be really annoyed if a 3rd party extension starts polluting
> my C:\Python26.
>   
You made your point.
>   
>> I'm wondering how it could break things asp roviding libraries in an 
>> unique location is a known and common practice.
>> 
>
> The problem is that numpy does not "own" C:\Python*, and it is not
> expected that projects start dumping their stuff there. It usually
> "works" on windows because each applications is independent of each
> other. But here, numpy extends python, so we cannot just do as we please
> - especially to deal with this whole manifest stupidity. Given that even
> MS has implicitly recognized how broken manifests were (they are giving
> it up for VS 2010), I don't think it worths spending time on this issue
> which may well be unsolvable in a reliable way anyway. AFAIK, the
> related issue of broken "install for me" python installers on vista and
> windows 7 has not been solved yet.
>   
Well, I wasn't aware of Microsoft willing to giving up the whole 
SxS/manifest thing. Is there any MSDN information available?
Thanks for your input David,
Eloi
> cheers,
>
> David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

Eloi Gaudry wrote:
> David, I think that what Christoph pointed here applies to the msvc 
> built libraries only (I need to build the whole python/extensions using 
> msvc).
>   

Ok, I did not understand that point. Do you know if the patch discussed
in 4120 has been applied to 2.6.4 ? 

> May I ask you what re the "clashes between extensions" you were 
> referring to in your previous answer ? Have you already encountered such 
> issues ?
>   

If every python package starts to put its extensions (*.pyd) into a
directory, what happens when two different packages have an extension
with the same name (e.g. package foo has a package multiarray.pyd) ? I
would also be really annoyed if a 3rd party extension starts polluting
my C:\Python26.

> I'm wondering how it could break things asp roviding libraries in an 
> unique location is a known and common practice.

The problem is that numpy does not "own" C:\Python*, and it is not
expected that projects start dumping their stuff there. It usually
"works" on windows because each applications is independent of each
other. But here, numpy extends python, so we cannot just do as we please
- especially to deal with this whole manifest stupidity. Given that even
MS has implicitly recognized how broken manifests were (they are giving
it up for VS 2010), I don't think it worths spending time on this issue
which may well be unsolvable in a reliable way anyway. AFAIK, the
related issue of broken "install for me" python installers on vista and
windows 7 has not been solved yet.

cheers,

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Eloi Gaudry]

David, I think that what Christoph pointed here applies to the msvc 
built libraries only (I need to build the whole python/extensions using 
msvc).

May I ask you what re the "clashes between extensions" you were 
referring to in your previous answer ? Have you already encountered such 
issues ?
I'm wondering how it could break things asp roviding libraries in an 
unique location is a known and common practice.

Eloi


David Cournapeau wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Christoph Gohlke  wrote:
>   
>> Eloi: take a look at , which contains
>> a discussion on, and a patch for, not embedding manifest files in *.pyd
>> when compiling with MSVC.
>> 
>
> Note that the official binaries are built with mingw, and thus do not
> embed any manifest in the .pyd.
>
> David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Eloi Gaudry]

Christoph, thanks for pointing this discussion. That's a perfect match.

If the workaround provided offers a solution to the current 
redistribution issue, I'm wondering if it will still be the case when an 
update to the assembly check function will be activated/implemented 
(within Windows).
The manifest edition (removing the "assemblyIdentity" tag) doesn't seem 
to be a popular/official/supported way of dealing with the whole runtime 
libraries issue. Don't you think ?

Christoph Gohlke wrote:
> Eloi: take a look at , which contains 
> a discussion on, and a patch for, not embedding manifest files in *.pyd 
> when compiling with MSVC.
>
> You could recompile the PYD/DLL files that depend on the VC90.CRT in 
> winSXS with the patch applied, or manually remove the manifests from 
> those PYD/DLL files using a HEX editor or script. Also make sure that 
> all DLLs that your PYD files depend on are in the Windows search PATH.
>
> Christoph
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Christoph Gohlke  wrote:
> Eloi: take a look at , which contains
> a discussion on, and a patch for, not embedding manifest files in *.pyd
> when compiling with MSVC.

Note that the official binaries are built with mingw, and thus do not
embed any manifest in the .pyd.

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Christoph Gohlke]

Eloi: take a look at , which contains 
a discussion on, and a patch for, not embedding manifest files in *.pyd 
when compiling with MSVC.

You could recompile the PYD/DLL files that depend on the VC90.CRT in 
winSXS with the patch applied, or manually remove the manifests from 
those PYD/DLL files using a HEX editor or script. Also make sure that 
all DLLs that your PYD files depend on are in the Windows search PATH.

Christoph
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Eloi Gaudry]

On 27/11/2009 18:21, David Cournapeau wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Eloi Gaudry  wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> I know this discussion first took place months ago, but I'd like to know
>> whether or not you find a solution to the SxS assemblies issues using
>> MSVC9.0.
>>  
> Which issue exactly are you talking about ? When python is installed
> for one user (when installed for all users, the C runtime is installed
> in the SxS) ?
>
Sorry, I was thinking of the "single-user" installation one, where no C 
runtime can be installed to the SxS folder but rather made available 
next to python.exe executable.

>> In case you haven't (the binaries package for windows is built using
>> mingw), I'd like to know if this would be possible to relocate all numpy
>> *.pyd from their original location (i.e. site-packages/numpy/core/,
>> etc.) to the main executable one (i.e. python.exe).
>>  
> This sounds like a very bad idea: if packages start doing that, there
> will quickly be clashes between extensions.
>
well, the DLLs directory of the nt python install is somehow using the 
very same concept. Moreover this could offer a proper solution to the 
single-user installation C runtime "issue". By making sure every 
binaries are located in the same directory where the C runtime are, one 
doesn't need to install the C runtime libraries in the SxS folder, thus 
no administrative rights are needed at set-up.

> You would need to describe the exact scenario which is failing: how
> python is installed, how you build numpy, what is not working with
> which message, etc...
>
I'm distributing a software using python as its main interpreter and 
taking advantage of the several python extensions available (such as 
numpy, matplotlib, reportlab, vtk bindings, etc.). Python and its 
extension binaries (*.pyd, *.dll and *.exe) are dynamically built using 
msvc 2008 and thus rely on the SxS assemblies at runtime. As this 
software need to be installed without administrative privileges, I 
cannot install the mandatory runtimes libraries in the shared SxS 
assembly directory (if missing). I then need to directly provide the 
runtime libraries in a private directory of the software I'm 
distributing. Actually, this is why I provide the C runtime libraries in 
the 'bin' directory, where all binaries are stored (python.exe, *.dll, 
vtk*.pyd, etc.).

Eloi
> David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Eloi Gaudry  wrote:
> David,
>
> I know this discussion first took place months ago, but I'd like to know
> whether or not you find a solution to the SxS assemblies issues using
> MSVC9.0.

Which issue exactly are you talking about ? When python is installed
for one user (when installed for all users, the C runtime is installed
in the SxS) ?

>
> In case you haven't (the binaries package for windows is built using
> mingw), I'd like to know if this would be possible to relocate all numpy
> *.pyd from their original location (i.e. site-packages/numpy/core/,
> etc.) to the main executable one (i.e. python.exe).

This sounds like a very bad idea: if packages start doing that, there
will quickly be clashes between extensions.

You would need to describe the exact scenario which is failing: how
python is installed, how you build numpy, what is not working with
which message, etc...

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Christian Heimes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  The MSDN website has some articles about SxS DLLs though. I had to read
>  about ten articles to get the big picture. The information is scattered
>  all over the place. :/

10 pages, xml files and not even compatible across OS versions: it it
what is meant by MS when they talk about rich API ? :) I won't read
those pages to understand something which is available on unix for 20
years and understandable in 5 minutes. I wasted one half day, I won't
waste more than that. Well, this is it, I give up, I won't support
linking dll with MS compilers. I don't have easy access to windows,
and I don't even use this crap.

Thanks for your help, though

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Christian Heimes]

David Cournapeau wrote:
> Do you have a link to the related python ML discussion by any chance ?

No, I'm sorry. It was a private chat between between Guido, Martin and
me during the release phase of Python 3.0a2.

The MSDN website has some articles about SxS DLLs though. I had to read
about ten articles to get the big picture. The information is scattered
all over the place. :/

Christian

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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

Christian Heimes wrote:
>
> That's not enough for some DLLs. .NET assemblies as well as Side-by-Side
> dlls (SxS) must be registered properly. You can install a SxS dll in
> PATH but simple copying the DLL isn't enough. It also depends on the OS.

Ah, that reminds me of something I tried, that is using the global cache 
something, with gacutil, which is supposed to work with 'bare' dll. Of 
course, it did not work as said on MSDN, and I got some obscure error 
message (I am starting to wonder if anything coming from MS works at all).

>
> Have fun! The SxS issue has bitten us in the a.. when we delivered the
> second beta of Python 3.0.
>

Do you have a link to the related python ML discussion by any chance ?

cheers,

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Christian Heimes]

Matthieu Brucher wrote:
> When Visual Studio 2008 will be used, there might be a way of using the
> manifest files (that were created for a similar purpose).
> For the moment, All I know is that you must put the dll in the
> Windows/system32 folder or somewhere in the PATH.

That's not enough for some DLLs. .NET assemblies as well as Side-by-Side
dlls (SxS) must be registered properly. You can install a SxS dll in
PATH but simple copying the DLL isn't enough. It also depends on the OS.

Have fun! The SxS issue has bitten us in the a.. when we delivered the
second beta of Python 3.0.

Christian

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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

Matthieu Brucher wrote:
> When Visual Studio 2008 will be used, there might be a way of using 
> the manifest files (that were created for a similar purpose).
> For the moment, All I know is that you must put the dll in the 
> Windows/system32 folder or somewhere in the PATH.

Do you know where to find some informations about that ? I tried to find 
something readable, but I could only find some msdn pages with almost no 
concrete information on how to use those manifest files.

cheers,

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[David Cournapeau]

Jon Wright wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> To be honest I'd be nervous about spreading your depedencies all over 
> the disk, the potential interactions go as n^2. 

Well, I am more than nervous, this is totally insane, and I tried 
different things (registry: per application path, etc...). But it just 
looks like windows is even more f***-up than I thought. I am tired of 
wasting my time for this broken platform: I am really near giving up 
supporting MS compilers at all.

> According to msdn there 
> is a function which might work:
>
> "SetDllDirectory: Adds a directory to the search path used to locate 
> DLLs for the application."
> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms686203.aspx

Well, this does not sound right to me either; anyway, this is a C 
function which does not seem to be available from python.

> Otherwise you might have to copy the 
> mkl dll into the "directory from which the application loaded". This 
> would seem like a better choice, but I do wonder where that is for python.

This directory depends on how you start python, I think, so this is not 
better. Having looked at how installers do it, there does not seem to be 
much choice: either use PATH (actually, that's what the MKL is doing), 
or put everything in hardcoded directories (system32 and co). The other 
solution I see is to add the paths to the registry for the python 
application (it seems that windows has a registry subtree App Paths to 
handle per application dll path, but touching the registry makes me 
quite nervous too).
>
> Hope this helps. I'm certainly not an expert, but keen to try to support 
> your work on help the masses access optimised libraries.

Thanks,

David
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Matthieu Brucher]

When Visual Studio 2008 will be used, there might be a way of using the
manifest files (that were created for a similar purpose).
For the moment, All I know is that you must put the dll in the
Windows/system32 folder or somewhere in the PATH.

Matthieu

2008/2/15, David Cournapeau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Hi,
>
> My head hurt trying to understand dll management with windows. I
> wanted to find a sane way to use dll for numscons, but I can't see how
> to do this, so I was wondering if anyone on this ML had any deep
> knowledge on how to install dll, and reuse them with python extensions ?
> The problem is the following:
> - you have some dll (say MKL) in a path (say C:\program files\MKL).
> - how do you tell another dll (more exactly a python extension, a
> .pyd) to look for mkl dll into the MKL path ?
>
> It seems that there is no rpath-like capability on windows, and the only
> way to load dll is to put them into some windows directory, or to put
> the dll path into PATH. Is it really the only way ?
>
> cheers,
>
> David
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-- 
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Website : http://matthieu-brucher.developpez.com/
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Re: [Numpy-discussion] Is anyone knowledgeable about dll deployment on windows ?

[Jon Wright]

David Cournapeau wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> My head hurt trying to understand dll management with windows. I 
> wanted to find a sane way to use dll for numscons, but I can't see how 
> to do this, so I was wondering if anyone on this ML had any deep 
> knowledge on how to install dll, and reuse them with python extensions ? 
> The problem is the following:
> - you have some dll (say MKL) in a path (say C:\program files\MKL).
> - how do you tell another dll (more exactly a python extension, a 
> .pyd) to look for mkl dll into the MKL path ?

Hi,

To be honest I'd be nervous about spreading your depedencies all over 
the disk, the potential interactions go as n^2. According to msdn there 
is a function which might work:

"SetDllDirectory: Adds a directory to the search path used to locate 
DLLs for the application."
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms686203.aspx

Perhaps this is only for vista/xp? Otherwise you might have to copy the 
mkl dll into the "directory from which the application loaded". This 
would seem like a better choice, but I do wonder where that is for python.

Hope this helps. I'm certainly not an expert, but keen to try to support 
your work on help the masses access optimised libraries.

Best,

Jon

> 
> It seems that there is no rpath-like capability on windows, and the only 
> way to load dll is to put them into some windows directory, or to put 
> the dll path into PATH. Is it really the only way ?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> David
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> Numpy-discussion@scipy.org
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