Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-22 Thread Marlin Forbes 

On Thursday, 21 July 2016 16:03:07 UTC+2, Pepper Square wrote:
>
> If you are hot, you are on the spot! 
> If not you are the one the camera forgot! 
>
>  
Prejudiced against cool people. (sorry, couldn't help myself).

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Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-21 Thread Johan Beaurain 
We need to be fair when we express criticism.

When white people are rude towards black people, often we are not quick
enough to express criticism towards such rude behaviour.

Recently we had an incident of rude behaviour here in Observatory that
caused a ripple effect of orgasmic vibrations all over the country... it
continued for days without end...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ObservatoryTalking/permalink/1780360018863028/

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Marc Turok  wrote:

> What about 'eye in the sky' infra-red random photography technology, from
> an automated drone that undertakes not to photograph in black, white or
> colour?
> It simplifies the challenge using only body heat and that is all that
> counts from now on.
> From now on, there will be nothing to do with race, origin, political
> persuasion or gender profiling. Just heat!
>
> If you are hot, you are on the spot!
> If not you are the one the camera forgot!
>
> Sound suspicious?
> I'm too cool to care and besides I don't stare cause I cant take the glare.
>
> Lets just keep a look out for actual crime and act on that.
> There is actually plenty of it about so we do not have to invent it.
> Much of it is too hot to be out on the street.
>
> Even some of the airlines fly high on dangerous substances these days.
> In my day it was weed. I guess some good publicity is required to be able
> to pay Zimbabwe civil servants.
>
> Seriously though lets get out there and gather useful intelligence.
>
> More facts and stats, less accusations and finger pointing (its always one
> forward and 3 back at oneself)
>
> -Original Message----- From: Trevor Hughes
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:42 AM
> To: obsnw@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station
> road
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:17 AM, stephen van der spuy
>  wrote:
>
>> So what do you suggest Trev. ? That from now on we not photograph
>> suspicious persons if they are black ?
>>
>>
> Not at all. I think you have missed the point of my argument -
> suspicion is in the eye of the beholder and the beholder may or may
> not have a full picture.
>
> Just think Pokemon Go! Lots of people may be called in for looking
> suspicious but they are just playing a fairly innocent game. If the
> beholder knew this they would not look "suspicious" to the beholder
> with that knowledge.
>
> Or here is a challenge - define a suspicious person?
>
> Trev
>
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Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-21 Thread Marc Turok 
What about 'eye in the sky' infra-red random photography technology, from an 
automated drone that undertakes not to photograph in black, white or colour?
It simplifies the challenge using only body heat and that is all that counts 
from now on.
From now on, there will be nothing to do with race, origin, political 

persuasion or gender profiling. Just heat!

If you are hot, you are on the spot!
If not you are the one the camera forgot!

Sound suspicious?
I'm too cool to care and besides I don't stare cause I cant take the glare.

Lets just keep a look out for actual crime and act on that.
There is actually plenty of it about so we do not have to invent it.
Much of it is too hot to be out on the street.

Even some of the airlines fly high on dangerous substances these days.
In my day it was weed. I guess some good publicity is required to be able to 
pay Zimbabwe civil servants.


Seriously though lets get out there and gather useful intelligence.

More facts and stats, less accusations and finger pointing (its always one 
forward and 3 back at oneself)


-Original Message- 
From: Trevor Hughes

Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:42 AM
To: obsnw@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station 
road


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:17 AM, stephen van der spuy
 wrote:

So what do you suggest Trev. ? That from now on we not photograph
suspicious persons if they are black ?



Not at all. I think you have missed the point of my argument -
suspicion is in the eye of the beholder and the beholder may or may
not have a full picture.

Just think Pokemon Go! Lots of people may be called in for looking
suspicious but they are just playing a fairly innocent game. If the
beholder knew this they would not look "suspicious" to the beholder
with that knowledge.

Or here is a challenge - define a suspicious person?

Trev

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Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-21 Thread Trevor Hughes 
On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:17 AM, stephen van der spuy
 wrote:
> So what do you suggest Trev. ? That from now on we not photograph
> suspicious persons if they are black ?
>

Not at all. I think you have missed the point of my argument -
suspicion is in the eye of the beholder and the beholder may or may
not have a full picture.

Just think Pokemon Go! Lots of people may be called in for looking
suspicious but they are just playing a fairly innocent game. If the
beholder knew this they would not look "suspicious" to the beholder
with that knowledge.

Or here is a challenge - define a suspicious person?

Trev

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Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-21 Thread stephen van der spuy 
So what do you suggest Trev. ? That from now on we not photograph
suspicious persons if they are black ?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 7:52 AM, Stan  wrote:

> We still don't know what & why the photographer was filming, do we? Where
> is the photographer?
>
> Skin colour is co-incidental. If we were all pink, we would soon find some
> or other difference to complain about, would we not?
>
> The "racism" theory is as yet unproven and based on suspicion, not so?
>
> As soon as two people of dissimilar skin colour disagree about something,
> are they opening themselves up to being labelled "racist"? We live in a
> multi-racial society. Let's get over that.
>
> While we all sit around arguing about racism, crime gladly continues.
>
> Do we ALL have a duty to fight racism? Equally, we ALL have a
> responsibility to become involved in crime-fighting, which affects us all.
>
> When I (daily) see suspicious behaviour in the streets of Obs, I don't
> care who is or seems to be about to do XYZ, or seems to have no good
> business lurking somewhere: do I report it, or do I choose not to, for fear
> of being labelled racist, just in case the suspect has different skin
> colour to mine? Or can I feel guilt-free to report a suspicious person when
> they have my skin colour? See how laughable this could become?
>
> If I see suspicious activity and I can take photographs without
> endangering my safety, I should do it, if it will assist crime fighting.
> If it offends an innocent person, I can apologise afterwards without
> feeling guilty, because it was nothing personal.
>
> It is unfortunate that it requires us to be judgemental and often if a
> person looks dodgy, there's a good chance that they are - on some level!
>
> Have I become overly suspicious? Living in this part of Obs, I might say
> "Rightly so!" with its history of drug-related criminal activity, Or is it
> just a case of being more alert and observant?
> There have been times when I have dismissed my suspicion based on a gut
> feel, only to be proved wrong shortly thereafter - AND vice-versa!!! The
> balance is never an easy one.
>
> Hopefully, if more of us stand together in striving for a crime-free
> community, it will help us focus on our similarities rather than our
> differences.
>
> Stan
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: obsnw@googlegroups.com [mailto:obsnw@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Trevor Hughes
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 12:57 AM
> To: obsnw@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station
> road
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stan  wrote:
> >
> > Spot on!!!
>
> Out damn spot, Out!
>
> >
> > From: obsnw@googlegroups.com [mailto:obsnw@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> > Of stephen van der spuy
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 2:40 PM
> > To: obsnw@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [obsnw] Digest for obsnw@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in
> > 2 topics
> >
> > There is nothing to indicate that anyone in Obs is photographed simply
> because he/she is black.   People get photographed when there is suspicion
> about them.   The colour of the photographer and the colour of the person
> being photographed has got absolutely nothing to do with it.
> >
>
> Yes there is and yes it has. The guy in question is stating that quite
> clearly. Clearly being black was suspicious enough for the photographer in
> question. Would be interesting to see some of his other photographs. I
> wonder how many white suspicious white ous he took photos of?
>
> > People need to be photographed when there is suspicion about them.
> Their colour should be of no consideration whatsoever.  If we are going to
> be over-sensitive on this issue , then we might as well scrap the Obs
> Neighbourhood Watch.  Criminals are not sensitive, so why should the
> neighbourhood watch be ?  Persons being photographed should accept this
> sort of thing, and not be overly sensitive themselves if they have nothing
> to hide.   It's for the good of everyone that people are photographed.
>
> Nonsense! The old if you have nothing to hide then you should not mind
> defence is plain bollocks? Should we accept
> black/white/indian/coloured/asian strangers taking pictures of the kids and
> nannies in the kiddies park. The kids and nannies have nothing to hide and
> its for the good of everyone that they are being photographed. Suspicion is
> most often in the eye of the beholder.
>
> Colour matters. You may like to think it does not but it most certainly
> does.
>
> Trev
>
> --
> -

Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-20 Thread Trevor Hughes 
On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Stan  wrote:
>
> Spot on!!!

Out damn spot, Out!

>
> From: obsnw@googlegroups.com [mailto:obsnw@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
> stephen van der spuy
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 2:40 PM
> To: obsnw@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [obsnw] Digest for obsnw@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 2 topics
>
> There is nothing to indicate that anyone in Obs is photographed simply 
> because he/she is black.   People get photographed when there is suspicion 
> about them.   The colour of the photographer and the colour of the person 
> being photographed has got absolutely nothing to do with it.
>

Yes there is and yes it has. The guy in question is stating that quite
clearly. Clearly being black was suspicious enough for the
photographer in question. Would be interesting to see some of his
other photographs. I wonder how many white suspicious white ous he
took photos of?

> People need to be photographed when there is suspicion about them.  Their 
> colour should be of no consideration whatsoever.  If we are going to be 
> over-sensitive on this issue , then we might as well scrap the Obs 
> Neighbourhood Watch.  Criminals are not sensitive, so why should the 
> neighbourhood watch be ?  Persons being photographed should accept this sort 
> of thing, and not be overly sensitive themselves if they have nothing to 
> hide.   It's for the good of everyone that people are photographed.

Nonsense! The old if you have nothing to hide then you should not mind
defence is plain bollocks? Should we accept
black/white/indian/coloured/asian strangers taking pictures of the
kids and nannies in the kiddies park. The kids and nannies have
nothing to hide and its for the good of everyone that they are being
photographed. Suspicion is most often in the eye of the beholder.

Colour matters. You may like to think it does not but it most certainly does.

Trev

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Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-14 Thread Trevor Hughes 
Profiling is a fact of life, you may not even realise it but you probably
do it yourself without even realising

I am profiled all the time and have been stopped twice by police who wanted
to search me ostensibly cause I look like a long haired drug smoking hippy
- see what I did there?

A good response would be to take out your camera and photograph the person
back - but probably don't try that with the police who never seem to
understand you are quite within your rights to photograph them and bad
things could happen.

But sure I think these guys going around and blatantly calling out people
and taking photographs is a bit rude.

I am always amused when people offer me drugs or those that ask me if they
can buy drugs from me - simply cause of profiling!


Apologies to edenmusampa - I emailed him directly by accident

Trev

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Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-14 Thread edenmusampa 
Good day all.
On Sunday I went to see a friend of mine on Scot road, while waiting for him to 
come out around 3pm , a caucasian guy approach my car, just because there were 
two packet of paper bags of kfc and he assume it's was me who dispose on 
inappropriate place and he said I quote" this black guy dropping paper around " 
I look at him and smile he start taking pictures of me and my car. Nevertheless 
please Obz is a very nice place  and let not spoil the vibe of Ubuntu in this 
area, I have been in Obz for 14 years. I was offended but I forgive the guy and 
hence another brother is being victim of same issue I decided to bring it to 
light.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 14 Jul 2016, at 11:25, Obs NW Chairman  wrote:
> 
> Hi Itumeleng,
> 
> Thanks for your mail.
> 
> I can't confirm whether the person that photographed your vehicle yesterday 
> was one of our members as I am not aware of any pictures of your vehicle 
> having been posted to any of our platforms.
> 
> However, it is quite likely that it could have been one of our members and I 
> sorry that you were offended.
> 
> Unfortunately we have recently experienced a number of incidents where black 
> males use hired vehicles to come into Obs to commit crimes ranging from house 
> breaking to armed robbery. These vehicles are often new shape Toyota's, VW's 
> or Chev's and often have EC or GP number plates due them being rented 
> vehicles. The occupants are usually well dressed and well spoken. 
> 
> Our members will often post pictures of suspicious vehicles/persons onto our 
> Central Whatsapp Group so that SAPS can check on the registration details and 
> then together with Law Enforcement, OBSID  and the wider community, monitor 
> their activities while they are in the area. 
> 
> Our members are encouraged to be as discreet as possible in taking these kind 
> of pictures - for their safety and to avoid offending anyone. We(ONW) are not 
> allowed to stop and search anyone  - only SAPS and Law Enforcement can do 
> that - and you should not have been harassed in any way.
> 
> Once again, I apologise on behalf of the ONW if it was one of our members who 
> offended you.
> 
> Please report any inappropriate behavior from our members in the future so we 
> can deal with it.
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> Steve
> ONW Chair
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 5:22 PM, molopo riva  wrote:
>> Hello all hope this finds you well, My name is Itumeleng I stay in 
>> Observatory Pepperquare, Today I experienced an incident were I was treated 
>> like a culprit by a Caucasian male between the age of 40-45. I had just 
>> parked my car next to the church on Wesley got out of the car ,waiting for a 
>> friend , the white man was passed  by ,after 20 meters he proceeded to take 
>> pictures of the car while I was standing next to it. I understand the law 
>> permits people to freely take photographs in public spaces ,but in this 
>> instance this  it was not artistic. I started wondering wether he would have 
>> reacted the same if it was a Caucasian male parked in the same manner that I 
>> was. What if I had reacted to his actions ? I kindly ask that man to Please 
>> refrain from such actions as being black does not mean criminal. attached is 
>> a picture of the car I drive, feel free to launch a police investigation 
>> seeing that you have a lot of time on your hands. This is Africa.
>>   Regards.  
>> Itumeleng   
>> 
>> -- 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> Itumeleng Kgobokoe
>> about.me/itumeleng_kgobokoe
>>  
>> 
>> 
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Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-14 Thread Jodi 
Is this an apology from Steve, or an attempt at justifying racial profiling 
in a mixed-race suburb and free country? Because it reads a lot more like 
the latter. What constitutes "suspicious" - are there any clearly written 
up criteria that we as the community can see, or is it just left up to any 
member's subjective decision in a country where we know racial bias is 
still a thing? I would have hoped that Obs would be a little more 
progressive than this and not be actively justifying the racial profiling 
of people visiting, living in, working in, studying in Obs.  



On Thursday, 14 July 2016 11:25:37 UTC+2, chairman wrote:
>
> Hi Itumeleng,
>
> Thanks for your mail.
>
> I can't confirm whether the person that photographed your vehicle 
> yesterday was one of our members as I am not aware of any pictures of your 
> vehicle having been posted to any of our platforms.
>
> However, it is quite likely that it could have been one of our members and 
> I sorry that you were offended.
>
> Unfortunately we have recently experienced a number of incidents where 
> black males use hired vehicles to come into Obs to commit crimes ranging 
> from house breaking to armed robbery. These vehicles are often new shape 
> Toyota's, VW's or Chev's and often have EC or GP number plates due them 
> being rented vehicles. The occupants are usually well dressed and well 
> spoken. 
>
> Our members will often post pictures of suspicious vehicles/persons onto 
> our Central Whatsapp Group so that SAPS can check on the registration 
> details and then together with Law Enforcement, OBSID  and the wider 
> community, monitor their activities while they are in the area. 
>
> Our members are encouraged to be as discreet as possible in taking these 
> kind of pictures - for their safety and to avoid offending anyone. We(ONW) 
> are not allowed to stop and search anyone  - only SAPS and Law Enforcement 
> can do that - and you should not have been harassed in any way.
>
> Once again, I apologise on behalf of the ONW if it was one of our members 
> who offended you.
>
> Please report any inappropriate behavior from our members in the future so 
> we can deal with it.
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Steve
> ONW Chair
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 5:22 PM, molopo riva  > wrote:
>
>> Hello all hope this finds you well, My name is Itumeleng I stay in 
>> Observatory Pepperquare, Today I experienced an incident were I was treated 
>> like a culprit by a Caucasian male between the age of 40-45. I had just 
>> parked my car next to the church on Wesley got out of the car ,waiting for 
>> a friend , the white man was passed  by ,after 20 meters he proceeded to 
>> take pictures of the car while I was standing next to it. I understand the 
>> law permits people to freely take photographs in public spaces ,but in this 
>> instance this  it was not artistic. I started wondering wether he would 
>> have reacted the same if it was a Caucasian male parked in the same manner 
>> that I was. What if I had reacted to his actions ? I kindly ask that man 
>> to Please refrain from such actions as being black does not mean criminal. 
>> attached is a picture of the car I drive, feel free to launch a police 
>> investigation seeing that you have a lot of time on your hands. This is 
>> Africa.  Regards.   
>>Itumeleng   
>>
>> -- 
>>   
>>
>> [image: --] 
>>   
>> Itumeleng Kgobokoe
>> [image: https://]about.me/itumeleng_kgobokoe
>>
>> 
>>  
>>
>> -- 
>> --
>> OPS [Obsid Public Safety] - 24/7 control room 
>>  
>> TEL: 021-447-1066 or 072-063-1653
>> --
>>  
>> EMERGENCIES: 10111
>>  
>> --
>> ONW email: o...@obs.org.za 
>> WEB: www.obswatch.org.za
>> FACEBOOK: facebook.com/obswatch
>> --
>> Other Useful Obs Numbers: obs.org.za/obsdir
>>  
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> The Observatory Neighbourhood watch group. To post to this group, send 
>> email to ob...@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this 
>> group, send email to obsnw+un...@googlegroups.com . For 
>> more options, visit this group at 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/obsnw?hl=en
>> --- 
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>> .
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>>
>
>

-- 
--

Re: [obsnw] Unauthorized photographer Corner Wesley and station road

2016-07-14 Thread Obs NW Chairman 
Hi Itumeleng,

Thanks for your mail.

I can't confirm whether the person that photographed your vehicle yesterday
was one of our members as I am not aware of any pictures of your vehicle
having been posted to any of our platforms.

However, it is quite likely that it could have been one of our members and
I sorry that you were offended.

Unfortunately we have recently experienced a number of incidents where
black males use hired vehicles to come into Obs to commit crimes ranging
from house breaking to armed robbery. These vehicles are often new shape
Toyota's, VW's or Chev's and often have EC or GP number plates due them
being rented vehicles. The occupants are usually well dressed and well
spoken.

Our members will often post pictures of suspicious vehicles/persons onto
our Central Whatsapp Group so that SAPS can check on the registration
details and then together with Law Enforcement, OBSID  and the wider
community, monitor their activities while they are in the area.

Our members are encouraged to be as discreet as possible in taking these
kind of pictures - for their safety and to avoid offending anyone. We(ONW)
are not allowed to stop and search anyone  - only SAPS and Law Enforcement
can do that - and you should not have been harassed in any way.

Once again, I apologise on behalf of the ONW if it was one of our members
who offended you.

Please report any inappropriate behavior from our members in the future so
we can deal with it.

Thanks and regards,
Steve
ONW Chair



On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 5:22 PM, molopo riva  wrote:

> Hello all hope this finds you well, My name is Itumeleng I stay in
> Observatory Pepperquare, Today I experienced an incident were I was treated
> like a culprit by a Caucasian male between the age of 40-45. I had just
> parked my car next to the church on Wesley got out of the car ,waiting for
> a friend , the white man was passed  by ,after 20 meters he proceeded to
> take pictures of the car while I was standing next to it. I understand the
> law permits people to freely take photographs in public spaces ,but in this
> instance this  it was not artistic. I started wondering wether he would
> have reacted the same if it was a Caucasian male parked in the same manner
> that I was. What if I had reacted to his actions ? I kindly ask that man
> to Please refrain from such actions as being black does not mean criminal.
> attached is a picture of the car I drive, feel free to launch a police
> investigation seeing that you have a lot of time on your hands. This is
> Africa.  Regards.
>Itumeleng
>
> --
>
>
> [image: --]
>
> Itumeleng Kgobokoe
> [image: https://]about.me/itumeleng_kgobokoe
>
> 
>
> --
> --
> OPS [Obsid Public Safety] - 24/7 control room
>
> TEL: 021-447-1066 or 072-063-1653
> --
>
> EMERGENCIES: 10111
>
> --
> ONW email: o...@obs.org.za
> WEB: www.obswatch.org.za
> FACEBOOK: facebook.com/obswatch
> --
> Other Useful Obs Numbers: obs.org.za/obsdir
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> The Observatory Neighbourhood watch group. To post to this group, send
> email to obsnw@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send
> email to obsnw+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this
> group at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/obsnw?hl=en
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "The Observatory Neighbourhood Watch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to obsnw+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to obsnw@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
--
OPS [Obsid Public Safety] - 24/7 control room 

TEL: 021-447-1066   or   072-063-1653
--

EMERGENCIES:  10111

--
ONW email: o...@obs.org.za
WEB: www.obswatch.org.za
FACEBOOK: facebook.com/obswatch
--
Other Useful Obs Numbers: obs.org.za/obsdir

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