Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
On 12 Aug 2005 at 10:09, Spike Y Jones wrote: Slaine, Warp Spasm, Tir Nan Og, Fomorian, Red Branch, Fir Bolg, Enech*, Cromlech. Here is an idea - for these terms, since they are public domain, include a statement of such. Example: Public Domain terms: From Celtic Mythology, the following terms were derived, list terms here This way you are officially declaring the source of your terms, which also indicates that you are NOT using anybody else's PI. I would also suggest including a bibliography of the books you used, but the OGL does not allow for that. TANSTAAFL Rasyr (Tim Dugger) System Editor Iron Crown Enterprises - http://www.ironcrown.com E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
On 12 Aug 2005 at 13:47, Spike Y Jones wrote: I don't recall bibliographies being specifically banned by the OGL. But other people's trademarks and such are, and that can very definitely include book titles, and company names. TANSTAAFL Rasyr (Tim Dugger) System Editor Iron Crown Enterprises - http://www.ironcrown.com E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
On 12 Aug 2005 at 13:47, Spike Y Jones wrote: Here is an idea - for these terms, since they are public domain, include a statement of such. Example: Public Domain terms: From Celtic Mythology, the following terms were derived, list terms here This way you are officially declaring the source of your terms, which also indicates that you are NOT using anybody else's PI. Depending on which reading of the PI terms of the license you go with, doing this isn't necessarily going to get you anywhere. It will however be the start of a path that indicates that what somebody else declared as PI is not the source of your use of those terms. And that will help in case there is an issue over it. Simply put, and I vaguely remember this being a topic of discussion once before, if somebody declares something that is in the public domain as PI, you are allowed to go back to the public domain sources as being the point from which you derived such terms. ThePublic Domain declaration would specifically indicate that this is what was done in this instance, and specifically declares that the author/publisher was not re-using the PI declared by the other product. Think of it as a CYA measure. :) TANSTAAFL Rasyr (Tim Dugger) System Editor Iron Crown Enterprises - http://www.ironcrown.com E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
In a message dated 8/12/2005 11:03:33 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 12 Aug 2005 at 13:47, Spike Y Jones wrote: I don't recall bibliographies being specifically banned by the OGL.But other people's trademarks and such are, and that can very definitely include book titles, and company names. The OGL forbids you fromindicating "compatibility or co-adaptability" with other companies' Trademarks, neither of which a Bibliography does. They are just fine for OGL books. Chris Pramas Green Ronin ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:07:12 -0500 Tim Dugger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12 Aug 2005 at 13:47, Spike Y Jones wrote: This way you are officially declaring the source of your terms, which also indicates that you are NOT using anybody else's PI. Depending on which reading of the PI terms of the license you go with, doing this isn't necessarily going to get you anywhere. It will however be the start of a path that indicates that what somebody else declared as PI is not the source of your use of those terms. And that will help in case there is an issue over it. Unfortunately, one of the two main readings of the PI terms of the OGL is that you, by borrowing *any* OGC from some other publisher, agree not to use *any* terms that he claims as PI, whether you could source those from elsewhere or not. If the judge doesn't agree with your reading of the OGL, then your sidebar won't give you much cover. Spike Y Jones ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
Ian Sturrock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: fan momentHello, Ian. Great job with the game. Love it!/fan moment Yeah, my reading of the license allows a company to do what Mongoose (or Rebellion, the Slaine IP owners) seem to have done here -- to prevent other companies from using a load of essentially public domain terms in d20products by declaring the names Product Identity (whether or not one usesthe game mechanics from the game system). I know some have read the license that way, but that doesn't make any sense. If that was the case, I could publish an OGL product with every word in the Oxford English Dictionary and then claim them all as PI, thus negating their use in further OGl products without my permission, which is, obviously, ridiculous. My reading of PI has always been that you can protect terms that are unique to the product in question, but public domain terms are, essentially, immune to the OGL because even if someone claimed them as PI, one can always go back to the public domain source. Daniel M. PerezHighmoon Media Productionswww.HighmoonMedia.com Products available at: Digital Book Booth,DriveThruRPG.com, e23,RPGnow.com__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Highmoon Media Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ian Sturrock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, my reading of the license allows a company to do what Mongoose (or Rebellion, the Slaine IP owners) seem to have done here -- to prevent other companies from using a load of essentially public domain terms in d20 products by declaring the names Product Identity (whether or not one uses the game mechanics from the game system). I know some have read the license that way, but that doesn't make any sense. If that was the case, I could publish an OGL product with every word in the Oxford English Dictionary and then claim them all as PI, thus negating their use in further OGl products without my permission, which is, obviously, ridiculous. There are two problems being conflated here. The first is whether or not I can declare public domain words as PI and thereby prevent you from using them in OGL books that borrow OGC from my book. The second is whether or not I can declare words (public domain or otherwise) as PI and thereby prevent you from using them in OGL books even if you'd never seen my book. Only if you accept the most extreme position in both these cases is the declaring the OED PI tactic a problem for anyone. But some people have argued for more limited readings that *do* make sense and that would still cause you problems if a judge agrees. Spike Y Jones ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
I agree with you 100%. The Slaine name they are PIing is their version. They cant PI a name and take that name for all time and in all incarnations. Clark --- Highmoon Media Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am writing a Celtic themed product, and using OGC material from Mongoose's Slaine RPG. The PI declaration lists a number of terms they claim as PI, and I have a problem with it. While some of the various terms claimed as PI are certainly unique to the Slaine series, there are others that are part and parcel of Celtic myth and lit. The following terms all are claimed as PI and also appear in my Oxford Dictionary of Celtic Mythology: Slaine, Warp Spasm, Tir Nan Og, Fomorian, Red Branch, Fir Bolg, Enech*, Cromlech. Slaine is a character in the early stories. Warp spasms are traced to Cuchulainn, though he wasn't the only hero to become distorted during a rage. Tir Nan Og is the mythical Land of Youth; though the common Irish spelling is Tir na nOg, Tir nan Og (or Tir Nan Og in some cases) is the Scottish Gaelic spelling (as an aside, the book also claims Land of the Young as PI, and while my dictionary lists only Land of Youth or Land of the Ever-Young, I have certainly seen Tir nan Og called Land of the Young in other academic works). Fomorian is the name of a mythic Celtic race, as is Fir Bolg (or its alternate spelling, Firbolg). The Red Branch is an older name for the Ulster cycle, and a popular name for the band of warriors based out of Emain Macha. Enech is the old Irish word for face (as in saving face or honor). Cromlech is another Gaelic word (more used in Wales and Cornwall, though not exclusively) for dolmens. The only thing I can think of is that I can't use the Slaine's universe interpretation of these terms, but I don't see any way in which they could stop me from using these terms simply as terms; that would be like me claiming as PI Olympus, Achilles and so forth. Personally I have a mind to simply ignore the PI declaration as it applies to these terms, which have obviously been in use before the Slaine comic or the game, but I wanted to ask for thoughts on the matter. Daniel M. Perez Highmoon Media Productions www.HighmoonMedia.com Products available at: Digital Book Booth, DriveThruRPG.com, e23, RPGnow.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
It's my opinion, it is Ryan's opinion, and it is the only reading of the license that makes any reasonable sense. Obviously, like everything else with the OGL, there is no official pronouncement on anything :) Clark --- Spike Y Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Clark Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They absolutely cannot do that (prevent you from using public domain names). They can PI the name, but it is only as to that NPC or person from their product. You have every right to use those names you want to use, presuming they have a public domain origin. Mongoose, or any other publisher, cant gobble up public domain names by declaring them as PI. If the names are public domain, then you have a source for them (the public domain) aside from Mongoose's content and thus you can use them freely. Is this your opinion (which I agree with, by the way) or has this been officially declared to be the correct interpretation of the ambiguous license terms by WotC and/or a court of law? Spike Y Jones ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
RE: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
GRIM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wouldnt be 100% about a couple of those terms. Id check with Rebellion Software (Owners of 2000AD from which Slaine derives) as well or first. Since they licensed out the IP and have a hell of a lot more legal clout than any RPG company youll need to watch your step. Theyre nice, reasonable guys though. On some of the other terms on the PI list, I am very clear that they are unique to the Slaine comic and IP. The ones I listed, however, except for spelling variations that are not present in the dictionary I use (but that I have seen used in other sources), I am entirely confident that they derive from public domain sources. If anything, the one doubt I have is the following: They are claiming "Slaine" as IP. The stats of the character are OGC. I go ahead and reuse those exact stats in my product for an NPC. Can I call that NPC Slaine? The name derives from public domain, but is the combination of the name and the stats (the specific interpretation of the character Slaine as far as the rules of the RPG go) legal within the parameters of the OGL? Daniel M. PerezHighmoon Media Productionswww.HighmoonMedia.com Products available at: Digital Book Booth,DriveThruRPG.com, e23,RPGnow.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page gif5LCycqajv0.gif Description: GIF image ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
Re: [Ogf-l] PI declarations
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Clark Peterson wrote: I'd be surprised if Mongoose even felt you needed to ask permission to use words that are obviously in the public domain (and obviously I am only talking about words and names that are actually in the public domain). I agree with you that reasonable people would come to the conclusion that the OGL doesn't allow you to successfully shut public domain words away from use by OGL publishers. But the fact that Mongoose sought fit to include a bunch of public domain words in its PI declaration, though, makes me wonder if Mongoose has a different interpretation of the license, or if they were forced to put those words on the list by their licensor (despite secretly know that it was unenforceable). I mean, if we rule out incompetence, insanity, and spite for the IP declaration, then there must be *some* reason by Mongoose went through these motions, mustn't there? Spike Y Jones ___ Ogf-l mailing list Ogf-l@mail.opengamingfoundation.org http://mail.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
