Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hi Milan, On 30/08/2012 08:46, Milan Jurik wrote: Hi, it is not good you resign. And it is not good to see OI going nowhere. Here I had long e-mail about how stupid is to think OI is threat to Nexenta (Oracle way of thinking), how irrelevant is what Bryan Cantrill says, how stupid is to give up developer desktops etc. But nobody would read it and it is not important now. I'm sorry for resigning, but I was sacrificing considerable amounts of personal time and energy to the project. It couldn't continue indefinitely. I was hoping that we could set up a framework for others to contribute and carry things forward, but there was just too much baggage to deal with. OmniOS's approach of starting from scratch was the easy way out, something we couldn't do. I'd say illumos-userland was the final straw. It took the wind out my sails, especially with the "working set" farce where Bayard absorbed everyone's changesets then disappeared. The whole illumos-userland thing kind of pissed everyone off More important is - what is immediate impact of your resignation? Is it end of OI? It is not the end of OI, as long as others want OI to continue and can, for example, help Jon Tibble with his efforts, something I may do if I can find time. But I was unable to muster the time/energy to lead the project, so continuing as lead was leading the project no-where. I had to resign to make way for someone else - I hope someone will step forward, or that the project will continue without a leader. From my point currently Jon is moving /dev slowly forward - is he willing to continue in it with help from few remaining people? I hope so. oi-experimental is dead end, so is illumos-userland. Good thing. It was big switch breaking things and wasting resources. Well, it wasn't that big a switch - Solaris 11 has userland-gate, and it was just that. Andrzej Szeszo has the latest JDS built along with the latest userland-gate running on his desktop PC at home. He managed to get it all built and working. It was unfortunate he was unable/willing to upstream his work. It was possible, though, Andrzej's work proves this. We just needed talented, committed developers with time and energy. oi-build is slowly taking attention as much better way in our current situation. There is question about prestable, if it should stay as prestable or we can accept it as moving dev (as it is now in reality). Would automated release every 2 weeks help? Yes, some releases can be broken but we have BEs and people will be forced to fix things or leave. I don't know. Jon's reservation about releasing his prestable builds as stable was that there was still loads of CVEs in it. Automated releases would improve things but there would be a lot to automate. I feel oi-build as a framework is the future, but we tried to jump to it too quickly. An incremental approach based around Jon Tibble's work, where packages are moved one by one from SFE/JDS/etc into oi-build would fix that. There are however some big challenges. We no longer have the in-house skills to rebuild JDS. With your work on SFE and expertise with spec-files, perhaps that is something you could help with? Currently I fixed the most of things around OI SFE so I can move my attention back to illumos and OI after my vacation the next week. With small change, from July I switched my position in company and my spare time is very limited. But long winter nights are comming :-) I think OI would greatly benefit from your input Milan and I'm pleased you're considering helping it. Best regards from mad man who is using OI as his primary desktop at home You're not alone :-) Alasdair ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
The Apache-OpenOffice SPARC build is at 3.4.1: http://adfinis-sygroup.ch/aoo-solaris-sparc https://adfinis-sygroup.ch/file-exchange-public/tag-AOO341/README.html https://adfinis-sygroup.ch/file-exchange-public/tag-AOO341/Apache_OpenOffice_incubating_3.4.1_Solaris_Sparc_install-arc_en-US.tar.gz ~ Ken Mays From: Milan Jurik To: OpenIndiana Developer mailing list Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead Hi Bob, Bob Friesenhahn píše v pá 31. 08. 2012 v 10:43 -0500: > > Current OpenIndiana is satisfactory for most things that I need and > it > only lacks ready-made packages for Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, > and the available Flash plugin. If detractors do not get in the way, > forward progress will resume, and these packages will surely appear. personally I use tarballs published on ftp.mozilla.org for Firefox, they work very well. I am using even beta releases, updating through "mar" files. For OpenOffice, there is version 3.4.0 available: https://adfinis-sygroup.ch/aoo-solaris-x86 I hope http://adfinis-sygroup.ch/ people will prepare 3.4.1 soon. Best regards, Milan ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012, Milan Jurik wrote: Current OpenIndiana is satisfactory for most things that I need and it only lacks ready-made packages for Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, and the available Flash plugin. If detractors do not get in the way, forward progress will resume, and these packages will surely appear. personally I use tarballs published on ftp.mozilla.org for Firefox, they work very well. I am using even beta releases, updating through "mar" files. For OpenOffice, there is version 3.4.0 available: Yes, it is primarily a matter of convenience that it be possible to install these packages via a package manager. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Aug 31, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Damian Wojslaw wrote: > Am 2012-08-31 18:02, schrieb Jim Klimov: >> >> >> That's what I said, though you phrased it better - thanks ;) >> >> Now, there is a problem with those devices that OI does not see >> and can't pass through - such as USB3 ports, or use (such as my >> troubles with Wifi and SATA, and I'm not certain about sound >> working right)... THAT should be tackled, so that my desktop >> hypervisor can offer everything I've bought to those VMs which >> might be the more correct tools for certain jobs - such as >> skype or heavy tabbed browsing... >> >> >> //Jim > > So now an open questions that lurks forever: who and when can port drivers > for USB3 and WiFi and all other stuff from CDDL friendly operating systems? :) USB3 at least is not solely desktop relevant. I have a backburnered plan to work on this. Unfortunately, I don't believe that getting good USB3 type performance is possible with our current USB stack. (Furthermore, our USB stack is a convoluted mess -- owing largely to the way it was designed using STREAMs -- which actually makes writing USB drivers very unlike any other kind of driver.) My long running plan (probably won't get to this until 2013, if I'm honest) is to try to rewrite (perhaps a parallel stack) the USB stack to support USB 3 devices. It should be implemented to be much more of a typical nexus/leaf driver model. (Let's be honest, nobody really benefits from the STREAMs architecture that underpins the current stack. I've never heard of anyone pushing other kinds of modules between USB controllers and leaf devices, for example.) The end result will also make it *much* easier to port drivers from other platforms. (Right now, the USBA is alien enough to all other platform implementations that its almost impossible to borrow any significant logic from any other implementations.) - Garrett ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Bob Friesenhahn wrote on 08/31/2012 10:43:14 AM: > On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: > > > > So then, I have just a single question: What is the compelling > > reason for doing all this effort? Why not just load up Ubuntu on > > your desktop (or buy a Mac, or even run *cough* Windows) and run > > illumos bits in a VM? > > This position you advocate is a very low-performing one and not very > reliable either. It is much better to run the inferior OSs in a VM. > > The so-called "desktop" is a way to interact with the OS using a > graphical interface. It is not necessary for it to directly support > idle social applications like "Skype". > > On hardware I have here, I find OpenIndiana's "desktop" to be quite > performant. I also find Solaris 10's aging "desktop" to be quite > performant. I find the "desktop" to be less performant on Linux > systems like Ubtuntu because the focus there seem to be to consume all > available resources with new effects and exotic graphics which do not > contribute to getting things done. It has not taken me long to learn > that Ubtuntu is so frightfully complicated that its developers do not > quite understand how it works, and they have not even resolved the > long-standing randomly-occuring bug that the system ignores requests > to shut down and reboots fail to properly initialize the audio device. > I have also had Apple hardware and OS here but it suffers from issues > particular to Apple's social culture (which bears some resemblance to > Oracle) and it is difficult to recommend that someone depend on it for > long term use. > > Current OpenIndiana is satisfactory for most things that I need and it > only lacks ready-made packages for Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, > and the available Flash plugin. If detractors do not get in the way, > forward progress will resume, and these packages will surely appear. These 3 things need to be done, but there are no bug/feature-request for them I could find. I'll add them, If there are no missing dependencies, I'll even go ahead and take the FF one. > > Bob > -- > Bob Friesenhahn > bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ > GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ > > ___ > oi-dev mailing list > oi-dev@openindiana.org > http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hi Damian, Damian Wojslaw píše v pá 31. 08. 2012 v 19:00 +0200: > Am 2012-08-31 18:02, schrieb Jim Klimov: > > > > > > That's what I said, though you phrased it better - thanks ;) > > > > Now, there is a problem with those devices that OI does not see > > and can't pass through - such as USB3 ports, or use (such as my > > troubles with Wifi and SATA, and I'm not certain about sound > > working right)... THAT should be tackled, so that my desktop > > hypervisor can offer everything I've bought to those VMs which > > might be the more correct tools for certain jobs - such as > > skype or heavy tabbed browsing... > > > > > > //Jim > > So now an open questions that lurks forever: who and when can port > drivers for USB3 and WiFi and all other stuff from CDDL friendly > operating systems? :) > maybe nobody. Maybe somebody. We will see. But can you imagine how long will Illumos be relevant for commercial companies without USB3 support? USB2 will not be here forever and how will they connect keyboards? Also not all systems have serial console (RS232). USB is not for desktops only. > Regards > > Damian Wojsław > Best regards, Milan ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hi Bob, Bob Friesenhahn píše v pá 31. 08. 2012 v 10:43 -0500: > > Current OpenIndiana is satisfactory for most things that I need and > it > only lacks ready-made packages for Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, > and the available Flash plugin. If detractors do not get in the way, > forward progress will resume, and these packages will surely appear. personally I use tarballs published on ftp.mozilla.org for Firefox, they work very well. I am using even beta releases, updating through "mar" files. For OpenOffice, there is version 3.4.0 available: https://adfinis-sygroup.ch/aoo-solaris-x86 I hope http://adfinis-sygroup.ch/ people will prepare 3.4.1 soon. Best regards, Milan ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Am 2012-08-31 18:02, schrieb Jim Klimov: That's what I said, though you phrased it better - thanks ;) Now, there is a problem with those devices that OI does not see and can't pass through - such as USB3 ports, or use (such as my troubles with Wifi and SATA, and I'm not certain about sound working right)... THAT should be tackled, so that my desktop hypervisor can offer everything I've bought to those VMs which might be the more correct tools for certain jobs - such as skype or heavy tabbed browsing... //Jim So now an open questions that lurks forever: who and when can port drivers for USB3 and WiFi and all other stuff from CDDL friendly operating systems? :) Regards Damian Wojsław ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
2012-08-31 19:43, Bob Friesenhahn пишет: On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: So then, I have just a single question: What is the compelling reason for doing all this effort? Why not just load up Ubuntu on your desktop (or buy a Mac, or even run *cough* Windows) and run illumos bits in a VM? This position you advocate is a very low-performing one and not very reliable either. It is much better to run the inferior OSs in a VM. The so-called "desktop" is a way to interact with the OS using a graphical interface. It is not necessary for it to directly support idle social applications like "Skype". That's what I said, though you phrased it better - thanks ;) I did fire up VirtualBox (recent 4.2.0rc3) in my new oi_151a5 laptop, and a VM can attach to those USB devices that the system can see - such as the video camera. As long as VMs work with the interactive user applications satisfactorily, OI is a way to paint them on the screen, store the VMs safely and efficiently, and limit resource consumption of some over-zealous end-user apps (i.e. a firefox with 200 tabs should better lag in an intentionally constrained VM, than bring the whole physical system down; reloading it with FF session manager vs. save-stating and resuming the whole VM with it upon host reboot also takes somewhat different times to complete). Now, there is a problem with those devices that OI does not see and can't pass through - such as USB3 ports, or use (such as my troubles with Wifi and SATA, and I'm not certain about sound working right)... THAT should be tackled, so that my desktop hypervisor can offer everything I've bought to those VMs which might be the more correct tools for certain jobs - such as skype or heavy tabbed browsing... It has been my long stance that X11 is a way to open many terminals instead of having just one in text mode. VMs on the desktop quite fit into this paradigm; OI does not have to be the all-around GUI desktop solution - it is a portal (or window) to those OSes which arguably have got that edge better. You still won't have, say, MS Visio or Adobe Photoshop on Linux or Solaris (well, maybe with Wine), so if you need those apps - you go get a Windows VM... IMHO it *is* satisfactory if OI is good enough for devs and admins to live in and use the same OS features as they do on their servers for everyday interactive work, provide some of the more baseline apps (current versions) and those which really benefit from physical hardware, and be a shell to VMs with other more complicated features. //Jim ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: So then, I have just a single question: What is the compelling reason for doing all this effort? Why not just load up Ubuntu on your desktop (or buy a Mac, or even run *cough* Windows) and run illumos bits in a VM? This position you advocate is a very low-performing one and not very reliable either. It is much better to run the inferior OSs in a VM. The so-called "desktop" is a way to interact with the OS using a graphical interface. It is not necessary for it to directly support idle social applications like "Skype". On hardware I have here, I find OpenIndiana's "desktop" to be quite performant. I also find Solaris 10's aging "desktop" to be quite performant. I find the "desktop" to be less performant on Linux systems like Ubtuntu because the focus there seem to be to consume all available resources with new effects and exotic graphics which do not contribute to getting things done. It has not taken me long to learn that Ubtuntu is so frightfully complicated that its developers do not quite understand how it works, and they have not even resolved the long-standing randomly-occuring bug that the system ignores requests to shut down and reboots fail to properly initialize the audio device. I have also had Apple hardware and OS here but it suffers from issues particular to Apple's social culture (which bears some resemblance to Oracle) and it is difficult to recommend that someone depend on it for long term use. Current OpenIndiana is satisfactory for most things that I need and it only lacks ready-made packages for Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, and the available Flash plugin. If detractors do not get in the way, forward progress will resume, and these packages will surely appear. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hi Yuri, Yuri Pankov wrote: On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 16:28:46 +0200, Jean-Pierre André wrote: Milan Jurik wrote: Hi, [...] This crap I heard for years inside Sun. Rumor say half of laptops used by Sun employees (and paid by Sun) were Macs in last year. And the most of core developers were not using Solaris on their laptops. With very same excuse. Now the question - why should new ideas grow on system in VM and not in platform you are using daily? Why should others use my system if even I am using it only to compile code? Just wanting to mention only the happy few can compile code on OpenIndiana. I could not even find the basic headers (stdio.h, etc.) for OpenIndiana downloadable anonymously (whatever the license). Think of why no open developer has ported LibreOffice, whose original design comes AFAIK from Sun. $ pkg search stdio.h INDEX ACTION VALUE PACKAGE basename file opt/gcc/4.4.4/include/c++/4.4.4/tr1/stdio.h [...] Great ! it works ! My fault, I am so stupid... Regards Jean-Pierre ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
> Think of why no open developer has ported LibreOffice, > whose original design comes AFAIK from Sun. I got to the point that this almost compiled on an OI u4 machine (and I'm not ex-Sun) delivering my changes back to LibreOffice. Most of the changes in the LO code were to remove the Sun Compiler stuff, so I was working to get it all working with GCC. I am not the only one trying to do this, in fact I am still being emailed about changes that are being made by others who have the time and the resources to keep testing and compiling in the changes ... I am pretty sure that this will come. I had to remove the code from the server I was using when my boss was getting annoyed at certain log output errors related to malformed autofs mounts related to the LibreOffice compiling. Jon ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 16:28:46 +0200, Jean-Pierre André wrote: Milan Jurik wrote: Hi, [...] This crap I heard for years inside Sun. Rumor say half of laptops used by Sun employees (and paid by Sun) were Macs in last year. And the most of core developers were not using Solaris on their laptops. With very same excuse. Now the question - why should new ideas grow on system in VM and not in platform you are using daily? Why should others use my system if even I am using it only to compile code? Just wanting to mention only the happy few can compile code on OpenIndiana. I could not even find the basic headers (stdio.h, etc.) for OpenIndiana downloadable anonymously (whatever the license). Think of why no open developer has ported LibreOffice, whose original design comes AFAIK from Sun. $ pkg search stdio.h INDEX ACTION VALUE PACKAGE basename file opt/gcc/4.4.4/include/c++/4.4.4/tr1/stdio.h pkg:/developer/illumos/gcc@4.4.4-0.151.1.5 basename file opt/gcc/4.4.4/lib/gcc/i386-pc-solaris2.11/4.4.4/include/ssp/stdio.h pkg:/developer/illumos/gcc@4.4.4-0.151.1.5 basename file opt/gcc/4.4.4/include/c++/4.4.4/tr1/stdio.h pkg:/developer/illumos-gcc@4.4.4-0.151.1.5 basename file opt/gcc/4.4.4/lib/gcc/i386-pc-solaris2.11/4.4.4/include/ssp/stdio.h pkg:/developer/illumos-gcc@4.4.4-0.151.1.5 basename file usr/include/ast/stdio.h pkg:/system/header@0.5.11-0.200 basename file usr/include/stdio.h pkg:/system/header@0.5.11-0.200 ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Milan Jurik wrote: Hi, [...] This crap I heard for years inside Sun. Rumor say half of laptops used by Sun employees (and paid by Sun) were Macs in last year. And the most of core developers were not using Solaris on their laptops. With very same excuse. Now the question - why should new ideas grow on system in VM and not in platform you are using daily? Why should others use my system if even I am using it only to compile code? Just wanting to mention only the happy few can compile code on OpenIndiana. I could not even find the basic headers (stdio.h, etc.) for OpenIndiana downloadable anonymously (whatever the license). Think of why no open developer has ported LibreOffice, whose original design comes AFAIK from Sun. Regards Jean-Pierre ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Guys, Please, This is a developer mailing list. If you want to help OpenIndiana please go to the issue tracker :) at https://www.illumos.org/projects/openindiana/issues Thanks, -- Piotr Jasiukajtis ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On 08/31/2012 11:14 AM, Volker A. Brandt wrote: > garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com writes: >> So then, I have just a single question: What is the compelling >> reason for doing all this effort? Why not just load up Ubuntu on >> your desktop (or buy a Mac, or even run *cough* Windows) and run >> illumos bits in a VM? > > http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html I'm sorry, but I have to contest this claim. The actual fact of the matter is not that OSX killed Linux (or any other *nix for that matter), but rather that the PC market is not growing by such a large margin anymore, and its not the golden poster child of technological progress that the press liked to make it out to be. It however does not mean that PCs aren't an important market. Amid all of the Apple hysteria its also easy to forget that not everybody is willing to fork over >1500 EUR for a laptop with a picture of a fruit on it. Not to mention that academic institutions, governmental agencies and all sorts of other organizations the world over are heavy Linux/open-source users not only on servers, but also on desktops. It's easy to forget that if you're only taking into account the relatively sheltered life of Solaris and Sun. So in all, I think there is a definitive user base for Illumos on the desktop. There *are* places where we can excel (e.g. in deeply integrating ZFS with the UIs). Lots of work? Sure. But may be worth it, if only for tinkering and playing. Cheers, -- Saso ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com writes: > So then, I have just a single question: What is the compelling > reason for doing all this effort? Why not just load up Ubuntu on > your desktop (or buy a Mac, or even run *cough* Windows) and run > illumos bits in a VM? http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html :-) -- Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/ Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim, GERMANYEmail: v...@bb-c.de Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46 Geschäftsführer: Rainer J.H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt "When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead" ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hi, I wanted to avoid this but I cannot stop myself forever to hear without reaction. On 31.08.2012 01:53, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: On Aug 30, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: So let me clarify: What is *broken* was the model of slavishly trying to follow OpenSolaris, or to be an "open & free" alternative to Solaris 11, There is nothing wrong with being a follower. For desktop it is ultimately better to follow Linux rather than Oracle's Solaris, particularly since Oracle's Solaris is following Linux. An Illumos-based desktop can be completely successful even if it is inferior to the desktop offered by some other systems. Being inferior is not the same as "failure". A usable desktop allows using Illumos without purchasing multiple machines, and including on portable hardware. In the modern era of virtualization, why wouldn't you do this with a hypervisor? I run illumos on my mac -- in a vm. (You can even do this for free with VirtualBox, although in my experience VMware offers a better experience. VB may have fixed the pathological problem that made me steer clear of it in the past -- I haven't looked into it recently.) This crap I heard for years inside Sun. Rumor say half of laptops used by Sun employees (and paid by Sun) were Macs in last year. And the most of core developers were not using Solaris on their laptops. With very same excuse. Now the question - why should new ideas grow on system in VM and not in platform you are using daily? Why should others use my system if even I am using it only to compile code? Do you remember frkit (for Ferrari crap)? Done volunteerely mostly. Making system at least usable on laptop. Because authors wanted to use it probably. It was good for them and fun also. Second, and probably more significantly, the *vision* is busted. OI had *no* vision except to follow Oracle's lead. Even Oracle abandoned OpenSolaris and the desktop, but OI tries to muddle on with no clear "vision" about what sets it apart. There is no "innovation" in OI, really. Too many people want too many things from it (server, desktop, compatibility, SPARC vs. x86), to the point that it can never really take the necessary steps to excel at any one thing because doing so might make it worse at another. OI became jack-of-all-trades, master of none. I don't think that desktop "innovation" is necessary. What is necessary is core functionality and availability of the major common applications (e.g. windowing environment, web browser, email interface, document editor). Without a usable desktop on top of Illumos (which current OpenIndiana provides), the other Illumos variants will suffer from diminished interest and popularity as mindshare continues to move away from Solaris. That battle is *lost*. Even Linux desktop share is a tiny, tiny fraction of the market. And at this point, even that is irrelevant -- the "desktop" as such is almost a thing of the past -- people interact through mobile devices, etc. Many of us still need real computers on our desktops, but the OS they run is kind of irrelevant these days -- as long as they have the apps that we need. blablablablabla. Yes, toys are in clouds. Databases are in clouds, their GUIs are in browsers. But is Photoshop in browser? Is SolidEdge in browser on tablet? It is about usability of tools. Productive specialized tools and inovations are not in tablets/browsers/clouds. Do you want to move people back to old times when they were waiting for their timeslot on big systems and have only terminals? Were those times so inovative as they were in 1980-2005? There is no battle. You are in fight for customers. I am trying to work to make Illumos based generic distro good enough for me (and for others, maybe). Outside of hardcore users, key enabling apps are missing on illumos. Skype. GotoMeeting. Legal DVD and Bluray support. iTunes client. TurboTax (although there is a less functional web variant). Etc. etc. (Heck for me, the ability to run a simulator for my R/C aircraft was a bit of a stopper.) So, toys. And I have legal DVD support. And with your vision of world, how important is to have DVD and Bluray films support in PC? So, given that I have to make these scarifies, what is the *benefit* of running illumos on a Desktop or Laptop? How does it beat MacOS X or Linux? Or even Windows? The *sole* benefit was an 'eat your own dog food' mentality. I agree there is value there, but the amount of sacrifice I had to make to get there became too costly to justify the very limited value I was getting out of it. Developer's desktop. Inovator's desktop. Inovators and developers are who make platform. How did Windows win its server market? How did Linux with its server market? Even UNIX systems took control of datacenters because they were closer to their users. Can you seriously have re
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Am 2012-08-30 22:18, schrieb garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com: Again, you misunderstood what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about open vs. closed at all. So let me clarify: What is *broken* was the model of slavishly trying to follow OpenSolaris, or to be an "open & free" alternative to Solaris 11, servicing servers, desktops, laptops, and both SPARC and x86. That was the model that OI started with -- to simply package up the bits that Oracle was providing, try to match it to an illumos kernel, and package the whole thing up. What's broken about this is two fold. [cut] These are all leaders, innovating in some way or another. Can anybody point to an area where OI has contributed any significant innovation to the ecosystem? I can't. OI is a follower. It filled (and perhaps still fills) an important role for the community, but lets not pretend that OI is the seat of excellence or innovation. Other distros fill that role. Garrett. While I can agree that it is a huge effort to keep a desktop distribution and probably most people interested in keeping it alive are not ones investing in it technically or financially, I have to disagree on one point: OpenIndiana has long ago stated they no longer want to follow Oracle lead and that they want to maintain their own vision of distribution. And while the vision of desktop may not be clear or clearly expressed, I believe it was there. Now, as for those hordes of poeple that wanted desktop but did nothing for it, I agree with you, that your opinion is yours. While I understand your issues with illumos on desktop, *I* greatly appreciate what OpenIndiana gives me, as a user. I don't miss all those things you do. And you see, there are lots of people who don't. So it is good to hear what you lack, but I and few of my friends would appreciate it if you spoke in less authoritative manner next time, please. Yes, I am one of those users that take and give not very much, but large numbers of me is a sad reality of any other distribution. Anyway, those were my opinions also. Have a coffee. Damian Wojsław ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Aug 30, 2012, at 5:25 PM, Jim Klimov wrote: > 2012-08-31 3:53, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: >> In the modern era of virtualization, why wouldn't you do this with a >> hypervisor? I run illumos on my mac -- in a vm. (You can even do this for >> free with VirtualBox, although in my experience VMware offers a better >> experience. VB may have fixed the pathological problem that made me steer >> clear of it in the past -- I haven't looked into it recently.) > So, my quick response to all the thoughts below: * Yes, it may be possible to build a solution that works. * It will almost certainly be inferior to other solutions. * It will take a *lot* of effort to keep it working and relevant on current hardware. So then, I have just a single question: What is the compelling reason for doing all this effort? Why not just load up Ubuntu on your desktop (or buy a Mac, or even run *cough* Windows) and run illumos bits in a VM? Even the "eat your own dog food" argument is kind of thin, since I contend that typical workstation usage is very different from the "real world" usage of illumos in data centers. Frankly a better "eat your own dog food" case would be to use illumos for your home NAS appliance or mail gateway or something like that. ;-) (To be clear: I'm not advocating against illumos -- I'm advocating that anyone who's going to invest the huge effort it takes to maintain a distro should have a really compelling reason for undertaking that work. So far nobody has presented such a story for the desktop case for illumos -- at least not that I've heard. I don't think there is any doubt that there are ample such cases for illumos in the datacenter, though.) As you've presented it, aspirations of mediocrity (your "base" developer workstation) are entirely uninteresting to me. (The good news is, my opinion really doesn't matter all that much -- I wasn't investing effort here anyway. :-) - Garrett > > Well, thinking of a developer workstation, with multiple VMs for testing > and developing stuff, a hypervisor based on illumos was what I'd have > in mind first-hand: with ZFS cloning/snapshotting and rollbacking of > VMs it allows for quite "cheap" experiments in terms of disk space, > etc., while keeping even a single-spindle laptop's data safer with ZFS. > > I am not sure about KVM, but with Virtualbox's desktop integration one > might make his individual virtual windows from guest OSes seem like > they are apps of the host. Presumably, that (or lx-branded zones) can > take care of Skype while we're busy eating our dogfood ;) > > Being not a voracious graphics user with intricate appetites, I'd not > bother much about how nice this illumos-based OS's desktop looks or > how last-version its firefox is. If it can draw some windows quickly, > that's good enough. A full-blown graphical OS with a primary focus of > being a lap/desktop?.. Well, that's what I'm trying since yesterday. > > OOB HW support is kinda lacking, and that may be a problem on both > server and desktop markets for illumos in general :( > > //Jim > ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
2012-08-31 3:53, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: In the modern era of virtualization, why wouldn't you do this with a hypervisor? I run illumos on my mac -- in a vm. (You can even do this for free with VirtualBox, although in my experience VMware offers a better experience. VB may have fixed the pathological problem that made me steer clear of it in the past -- I haven't looked into it recently.) Well, thinking of a developer workstation, with multiple VMs for testing and developing stuff, a hypervisor based on illumos was what I'd have in mind first-hand: with ZFS cloning/snapshotting and rollbacking of VMs it allows for quite "cheap" experiments in terms of disk space, etc., while keeping even a single-spindle laptop's data safer with ZFS. I am not sure about KVM, but with Virtualbox's desktop integration one might make his individual virtual windows from guest OSes seem like they are apps of the host. Presumably, that (or lx-branded zones) can take care of Skype while we're busy eating our dogfood ;) Being not a voracious graphics user with intricate appetites, I'd not bother much about how nice this illumos-based OS's desktop looks or how last-version its firefox is. If it can draw some windows quickly, that's good enough. A full-blown graphical OS with a primary focus of being a lap/desktop?.. Well, that's what I'm trying since yesterday. OOB HW support is kinda lacking, and that may be a problem on both server and desktop markets for illumos in general :( //Jim ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Aug 30, 2012, at 2:20 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: >> >> So let me clarify: >> >> What is *broken* was the model of slavishly trying to follow OpenSolaris, or >> to be an "open & free" alternative to Solaris 11, > > There is nothing wrong with being a follower. For desktop it is ultimately > better to follow Linux rather than Oracle's Solaris, particularly since > Oracle's Solaris is following Linux. An Illumos-based desktop can be > completely successful even if it is inferior to the desktop offered by some > other systems. Being inferior is not the same as "failure". > > A usable desktop allows using Illumos without purchasing multiple machines, > and including on portable hardware. In the modern era of virtualization, why wouldn't you do this with a hypervisor? I run illumos on my mac -- in a vm. (You can even do this for free with VirtualBox, although in my experience VMware offers a better experience. VB may have fixed the pathological problem that made me steer clear of it in the past -- I haven't looked into it recently.) > >> Second, and probably more significantly, the *vision* is busted. OI had *no* >> vision except to follow Oracle's lead. Even Oracle abandoned OpenSolaris >> and the desktop, but OI tries to muddle on with no clear "vision" about what >> sets it apart. There is no "innovation" in OI, really. Too many people >> want too many things from it (server, desktop, compatibility, SPARC vs. >> x86), to the point that it can never really take the necessary steps to >> excel at any one thing because doing so might make it worse at another. OI >> became jack-of-all-trades, master of none. > > I don't think that desktop "innovation" is necessary. What is necessary is > core functionality and availability of the major common applications (e.g. > windowing environment, web browser, email interface, document editor). > > Without a usable desktop on top of Illumos (which current OpenIndiana > provides), the other Illumos variants will suffer from diminished interest > and popularity as mindshare continues to move away from Solaris. That battle is *lost*. Even Linux desktop share is a tiny, tiny fraction of the market. And at this point, even that is irrelevant -- the "desktop" as such is almost a thing of the past -- people interact through mobile devices, etc. Many of us still need real computers on our desktops, but the OS they run is kind of irrelevant these days -- as long as they have the apps that we need. Outside of hardcore users, key enabling apps are missing on illumos. Skype. GotoMeeting. Legal DVD and Bluray support. iTunes client. TurboTax (although there is a less functional web variant). Etc. etc. (Heck for me, the ability to run a simulator for my R/C aircraft was a bit of a stopper.) So, given that I have to make these scarifies, what is the *benefit* of running illumos on a Desktop or Laptop? How does it beat MacOS X or Linux? Or even Windows? The *sole* benefit was an 'eat your own dog food' mentality. I agree there is value there, but the amount of sacrifice I had to make to get there became too costly to justify the very limited value I was getting out of it. Can you seriously have recommended OI as a viable desktop to *anyone* who wasn't running it *solely* for the mostly emotional attachment to Solaris or illumos? Why would I choose it over Ubuntu, for example? Or PC-BSD? Or … ? > > Many potential users of Illumos will simply turn away if they find out that > they only have a character terminal for console access. If modern X11 is > missing entirely, then only those specifically planning to do server > deployment would even consider using it. If someone was looking for free desktop, yes, they may be turned off by lack of a decent modern GUI. If I viewed them as part of my target demographic, I suppose I'd be upset by that.But since I'm not focused on developing a modern desktop OS, I tend not to worry about them. Notably, Sun spent gazillions trying to focus on the desktop (in order to lure developers -- I think mostly from schools in places like China). This is why Solaris has WiFi support (which is kind of crappy, actually), and why they paid me for about a year to redesign the audio stack. Did it make a damn bit of difference? No (although I had a lot of fun doing that audio work). In fact I'd venture to say that the shift of focus from the key audience (big iron customers who wanted all those nifty features from OpenSolaris -- like Crossbow -- but which didn't exist in a commercially supported product) actually *cost* Sun pretty much the entire business, and created the opportunity for Oracle to buy the company at firesale prices. So I stand by my earlier comments: pick something, and *excel* at it. Make a compelling reason to differentiate yourself. - Garrett
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:20:37 -0500 (CDT), Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Many potential users of Illumos will simply turn away if they find out > that they only have a character terminal for console access. If we're talking about Illumos in general, then I don't see how this contention pans out in the face of increased popularity of SmartOS and OmniOS. If we're actually talking about OpenIndiana, > If > modern X11 is missing entirely, then only those specifically planning > to do server deployment would even consider using it. Is that a bad thing? ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: So let me clarify: What is *broken* was the model of slavishly trying to follow OpenSolaris, or to be an "open & free" alternative to Solaris 11, There is nothing wrong with being a follower. For desktop it is ultimately better to follow Linux rather than Oracle's Solaris, particularly since Oracle's Solaris is following Linux. An Illumos-based desktop can be completely successful even if it is inferior to the desktop offered by some other systems. Being inferior is not the same as "failure". A usable desktop allows using Illumos without purchasing multiple machines, and including on portable hardware. Second, and probably more significantly, the *vision* is busted. OI had *no* vision except to follow Oracle's lead. Even Oracle abandoned OpenSolaris and the desktop, but OI tries to muddle on with no clear "vision" about what sets it apart. There is no "innovation" in OI, really. Too many people want too many things from it (server, desktop, compatibility, SPARC vs. x86), to the point that it can never really take the necessary steps to excel at any one thing because doing so might make it worse at another. OI became jack-of-all-trades, master of none. I don't think that desktop "innovation" is necessary. What is necessary is core functionality and availability of the major common applications (e.g. windowing environment, web browser, email interface, document editor). Without a usable desktop on top of Illumos (which current OpenIndiana provides), the other Illumos variants will suffer from diminished interest and popularity as mindshare continues to move away from Solaris. Many potential users of Illumos will simply turn away if they find out that they only have a character terminal for console access. If modern X11 is missing entirely, then only those specifically planning to do server deployment would even consider using it. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Aug 30, 2012, at 12:20 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: > > Dear Garett, > > I think I strongly disagree with you. I think you misunderstood me. More below. :-) > > garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: >> Dear Alasdair, > >> >> The model of OpenSolaris is broken. The model of OpenIndiana following >> OpenSolaris is broken. The illumos model is following the successful Linux >> model. This is exemplified by distributions such as the commercially >> supported, >> general purpose OmniOS, Joyent’s SmartOS, Delphix OS, and others. > > In our context, education/research community, we expect an OS coming from > some kind of model, a model like Linux Debian or FreeBSD, with a free OS (no > strings attached to it), but with people doing business around it with some > kind of service (support, installations, solutions, ...). The kind of model > we had with Sun was also fine for us : in the 80's and 90's with had a site > license for some number of nodes. After that, till the moment Sun was bought > by Oracle, the OS was free, but we paid for support. This was also OK. > > Openindiana is the Ilummos distribution which best fits what we expect. > > IMHO, it's an error making Illumos follow the Linux model for the simple > reason that the user base size isn't comparable. Still IMHO, because of the > difference in user base size and the amount of developpers, it should be > better to aggregate resources in order to have, for the moment, a solid > distribution instead of all these distributions (OmniOS, Joyent's SmartOS, > Delphix OS, ...). Maybe this is what is killing Openindiana. You should think > about. Actually, when I tried this, the result was illumian, which didn't work out so well. All of the distributions you list above are being developed by *commercial* entities that have their own business needs. We collaborate around a common kernel, and there may be areas where there is some collaboration with other upstreams, but the distributions are different because they have different *purposes*. The presence of these competitors is most definitely *not* what is killing OpenIndiana. (Although, I'm told that some parties have switched from OI to SmartOS. But I think that underscores the real problem with OpenIndiana, which I'll get to shortly.) > > Before the message of Alasdair, I was just preparing some dozen of servers to > get into production in our organization, running some infrastructure > applications (DNS, mail servers, directory servers, NFS servers, a lot of web > servers, ...), based on Openindiana. > > After your message, I looked for the distributions you mentioned above. None > of them fits the model I want. Well, I'm not sure what the model you want is. Of course some of those are commercial (all of 'em really, but then so are most Linux distros). SmartOS, OmniOS, illumian, and OpenIndiana should all be reasonable technology bases for what you are describing above, and they are all basically open source. I think you should look at the alternatives -- but then again if OpenIndiana works for you, great! > One of them even doesn't have, in their site, a download link, but have a > price page. So, we're coming back to some kind of closed model, the same > Oracle model all of you are criticizing. > At another one, it seems that some features are disabled if you don't have a > support contract (zfs send/receive). So, again, back to the Oracle closed > model. If I shall go back to a closed model, maybe I'll prefer remain at > Oracle. Again, you misunderstood what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about open vs. closed at all. So let me clarify: What is *broken* was the model of slavishly trying to follow OpenSolaris, or to be an "open & free" alternative to Solaris 11, servicing servers, desktops, laptops, and both SPARC and x86. That was the model that OI started with -- to simply package up the bits that Oracle was providing, try to match it to an illumos kernel, and package the whole thing up. What's broken about this is two fold. First, from a technical level, trying to retain and use packages from an upstream like Oracle, where there are dependencies upon closed bits, and flags days and interface boundaries where we we only get half of the changes, is untenable in the long run. It's been doomed to failure since inception. Second, and probably more significantly, the *vision* is busted. OI had *no* vision except to follow Oracle's lead. Even Oracle abandoned OpenSolaris and the desktop, but OI tries to muddle on with no clear "vision" about what sets it apart. There is no "innovation" in OI, really. Too many people want too many things from it (server, desktop, compatibility, SPARC vs. x86), to the point that it can never really take the necessary steps to excel at any one thing because doing so might make it worse at another. OI became jack-of-all-trades, master of none. (In fact, I'd argue that th
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Mind if I jump in for a bit? On 08/30/2012 09:20 PM, Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz wrote: > > Dear Garett, > > I think I strongly disagree with you. And that you have the ability is the beauty of open-source at work. > garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: >> Dear Alasdair, >> >> The model of OpenSolaris is broken. The model of OpenIndiana following >> OpenSolaris is broken. The illumos model is following the successful >> Linux >> model. This is exemplified by distributions such as the commercially >> supported, >> general purpose OmniOS, Joyent’s SmartOS, Delphix OS, and others. > > In our context, education/research community, we expect an OS coming > from some kind of model, a model like Linux Debian or FreeBSD, with a > free OS (no strings attached to it), but with people doing business > around it with some kind of service (support, installations, solutions, > ...). The kind of model we had with Sun was also fine for us : in the > 80's and 90's with had a site license for some number of nodes. After > that, till the moment Sun was bought by Oracle, the OS was free, but we > paid for support. This was also OK. > Openindiana is the Ilummos distribution which best fits what we expect. > > IMHO, it's an error making Illumos follow the Linux model for the simple > reason that the user base size isn't comparable. Still IMHO, because of > the difference in user base size and the amount of developpers, it > should be better to aggregate resources in order to have, for the > moment, a solid distribution instead of all these distributions (OmniOS, > Joyent's SmartOS, Delphix OS, ...). Maybe this is what is killing > Openindiana. You should think about. Just in case you didn't notice, Linux has been using the kernel/distro model from day one when it had next to zero users. I think your issue is not with the distro model, but with the lack of a general purpose totally open-source distro (kind of like Debian GNU/Linux), at least if we assume, for the purpose of argument, that OpenIndiana is dead (which I don't believe one bit). > Before the message of Alasdair, I was just preparing some dozen of > servers to get into production in our organization, running some > infrastructure applications (DNS, mail servers, directory servers, NFS > servers, a lot of web servers, ...), based on Openindiana. I'm using OI in production myself and while this change may force me to re-evaluate switching to a different one, I think life will carry on and a new chief maintainer will, sooner or later, step forward. > After your message, I looked for the distributions you mentioned above. > None of them fits the model I want. Can you be more specific? From where I'm standing, OmniOS looks pretty much like the old OpenSolaris + commercial support, though I haven't really looked into it deeply, so comments would be appreciated. > One of them even doesn't have, in > their site, a download link, but have a price page. I think you're talking about NexentaStor - that's not a general purpose OS, but rather a storage appliance. > So, we're coming back to some kind of closed model, the same Oracle > model all of you are critisizing. AFAIK OmniOS is free to use without commercial support with full source available. Am I wrong? > At another one, it seems that some features are disabled if > you don't have a support contract (zfs send/receive). That's NexentaStor, the storage appliance. > So, again, back to the Oracle closed model. If I shall go back to a > closed model, maybe I'll prefer remain at Oracle. I think you're mixing up two different product categories: specialized appliances and general purpose OSes. NexentaStor and SmartOS are very specialized and as such are ill suited to applications outside of their respective fields. OmniOS is probably what you're looking for. > Now that I know what you really think about the future of Illumos and > their distributions, I may definitely consider another OS : Linux of > FreeBSD. Linux has exactly the same model you're criticizing (kernel with separate distros) and FreeBSD is just one big monolithic block (with various downstreams existing, but with no clear separation). I short, I think you're framing the issue incorrectly. The fact that there are various distributions of Illumos isn't a bad thing, that's our strength! There's plenty of innovation that can be done in the way you package, manage and handle a distribution, wholly apart from the core technologies (Illumos). In fact, if anything, I feel like there are far too few flavors of Illumos, we should have many more. OpenSolaris (the distribution) was a direct attack on this model, where Sun tried to keep control of everything, rather than relinquishing it and letting the community take it where they'd like to see it. If you don't like what OpenIndiana/OmniOS/whatever is doing, go ahead and create a new distro. Take the Illumos core, build it, install it and build your own software stack on it. That's what Linux has been doing
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Dear Garett, I think I strongly disagree with you. garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: Dear Alasdair, The model of OpenSolaris is broken. The model of OpenIndiana following OpenSolaris is broken. The illumos model is following the successful Linux model. This is exemplified by distributions such as the commercially supported, general purpose OmniOS, Joyent’s SmartOS, Delphix OS, and others. In our context, education/research community, we expect an OS coming from some kind of model, a model like Linux Debian or FreeBSD, with a free OS (no strings attached to it), but with people doing business around it with some kind of service (support, installations, solutions, ...). The kind of model we had with Sun was also fine for us : in the 80's and 90's with had a site license for some number of nodes. After that, till the moment Sun was bought by Oracle, the OS was free, but we paid for support. This was also OK. Openindiana is the Ilummos distribution which best fits what we expect. IMHO, it's an error making Illumos follow the Linux model for the simple reason that the user base size isn't comparable. Still IMHO, because of the difference in user base size and the amount of developpers, it should be better to aggregate resources in order to have, for the moment, a solid distribution instead of all these distributions (OmniOS, Joyent's SmartOS, Delphix OS, ...). Maybe this is what is killing Openindiana. You should think about. Before the message of Alasdair, I was just preparing some dozen of servers to get into production in our organization, running some infrastructure applications (DNS, mail servers, directory servers, NFS servers, a lot of web servers, ...), based on Openindiana. After your message, I looked for the distributions you mentioned above. None of them fits the model I want. One of them even doesn't have, in their site, a download link, but have a price page. So, we're coming back to some kind of closed model, the same Oracle model all of you are critisizing. At another one, it seems that some features are disabled if you don't have a support contract (zfs send/receive). So, again, back to the Oracle closed model. If I shall go back to a closed model, maybe I'll prefer remain at Oracle. Now that I know what you really think about the future of Illumos and their distributions, I may definitely consider another OS : Linux of FreeBSD. Best regards, José-Marcio ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On 08/30/12 11:12 AM, ken mays wrote: > OpenIndiana still provides a niche market for those wanting a stable > development > desktop OS distro based on the OpenSolaris kernel and having a reliable and > stable closed source 2D/3D graphics driver. Just remember that you can only count on closed source graphics drivers as long as your kernel remains 100% compatible with current and *future* versions of Solaris, and those drivers don't develop dependencies on new features added to closed kernels that aren't available in the illumos kernel. (I have no idea if or when that will become a problem, I just know it's a possibility that may someday make the latest closed drivers no longer an option.) Of course, the alternative is to grow your market share to a large enough base that paying customers ask the graphics vendors to specifically support your platform and ensure they don't break on your kernel. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Engineering - http://blogs.oracle.com/alanc ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
It was written: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only." - Charles Dickens OpenIndiana still provides a niche market for those wanting a stable development desktop OS distro based on the OpenSolaris kernel and having a reliable and stable closed source 2D/3D graphics driver. Now as to the comments made, they have their place. But on the more positive note, realize the good the project inspired to many users as mentioned in the comments from this article: "There was a time in history when people said the same thing about linux.. about bsd.. about macosx. There are 1000′s of opensource projects in the world. All of them interesting for one reason or another. This group has passion and tenacity, both necessary for a good group project." - http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2011/10/15/openindiana-151a-desktop-review/ As for other comments, I always saw sysadmins focused on using the project for server apps moreso than the desktop. So a few of us spent hours updating the server apps specs in SFE, while also keeping the spirit of desktop app usage alive. But, there are the goals of the many as well as the goals of the few. As time marched on, the server and embedded device market dominated as the smartphones and tablets replaced many basic desktop user app needs. As for most businesses, it is about profitability margins by addressing market trends and needs. Sometimes, we cannot blame those businesses trying to protect their own bottom line in the sake of us covering our own. When businesses build their niche products and marketing around core strategies like cloud computing, embedded storage, streaming media, render farms, or virtualized web appliances - we needed to see how a distro project like OpenIndiana could help in the administration and development of those projects if even if from only a desktop or server experience. But in the light of it all and at the end of the day, OpenIndiana prevailed. We can our port of FlightGear 2.8.0 and appreciate the stability of openIndiana on entire test flights. We can use OI with Wine and load the majority of Windows business apps like MS Office or Photoshop needed for a project. Maybe in the sights of others - the glass is half empty. But in our eyes, the glass is only half full... Thanks for your dedication and leadership the glass can still be filled, ~ Ken Mays From: Alasdair Lumsden To: oi-dev@openindiana.org Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:18 PM Subject: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead Dear OI Developers, It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. I may, if the situation improves under a new project lead, stick around to offer my opinion or occasional assistance, but my resignation is final; I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. .. But it is also in part due to frustrations with the difficulty of making any progress on the project. OpenSolaris was maintained by a large corporate entity. We however, are volunteers, contributing our personal time to work on a project we believed in. For many of us this was the first open source project we had ever contributed to, myself included. The task at hand was vast, and we were ill equipped to deal with it. But what really, right from the very beginning, upset me, was the lack of interest from the large commercial players benefiting from Illumos, and from those who had been paid to work on Solaris at Sun. Instead, what we got, was grief regarding the name (Project Indiana seemingly being a sore point for Solaris engineers, something I was completely unaware of when we chose "OpenIndiana"), hostility towards IPS, and a total lack of interest, encouragement or friendship from people many of us looked up to when we were mere end-users of Solaris under Sun. Right from the very beginning, Illumos was on life-support. I have no doubt that Nexenta, Delphix, and Joyent in particular will continue to innovate and that SmartOS will be a success, but support for Solaris from the open-source software community has over the past 2 years gone from bad to worse. Only the other day the MongoDB developers responding to an issue with it segfaulting on OI stated "OI isn't supported, use Linux": .. https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/mongodb-user/45C7M_po1No I lay the blame of this squarely on the lack
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
2012-08-30 11:46, Milan Jurik wrote: > More important is - what is immediate impact of your resignation? Is it > end of OI? I think it doesn't have to be. If there are enough good guys still wanting OI to be - and EveryCity are even still providing the infrastructure - why not go on and keep making OI like we did before? It does not have to wither just because of a managemental change. Are we a community or a herd? ;) (well, a lot of both) > > From my point currently Jon is moving /dev slowly forward - is he > willing to continue in it with help from few remaining people? > > oi-experimental is dead end, so is illumos-userland. Good thing. It was > big switch breaking things and wasting resources. > > oi-build is slowly taking attention as much better way in our current > situation. I am not sure about the intricacies here. I thought there was oi-build which was (attempted to be) ported into illumos common infrastructure of third-party software generally useful on any system or something like that. In what way is this a dead end - or what do I misunderstand? > There is question about prestable, if it should stay as prestable or we > can accept it as moving dev (as it is now in reality). Would automated > release every 2 weeks help? Yes, some releases can be broken but we have > BEs and people will be forced to fix things or leave. I think prestables should remain, even if not "very" stable, as some milestones against which we can compare performances, bugs, etc. Maybe these would be just nightly builds made on the first of every month, maybe something else (i.e. someone would track changes as bleeding edge or relatively stable). I think that the current discussive and slow RTI process with "gate should be always stable" kind of solves that problem for us; but it also limits preliminary testing of new drivers and features to those people who can build OI (knowledge, time, CPU time) and boot their system with it. Maybe this is the differentiator for (pre)stable builds - with things that passed RTI - and for a bleeding edge sandbox with current proposals? The latter, if made into LiveCD images regularly, could provide for more testing by people who can boot an image and test something. Having more frequent releases, like monthlies, of things that passed RTI would IMHO be good. There's a lot of bugs fixed in the tracker, but the general public can't make use of them until binaries arrive. > Currently I fixed the most of things around OI SFE so I can move my > attention back to illumos and OI after my vacation the next week. With > small change, from July I switched my position in company and my spare > time is very limited. But long winter nights are comming > > Best regards > > from mad man who is using OI as his primary desktop at home I'm just becoming one too, after all the servers //Jim PS: Is it documented how to turn illumos-gate + illumos-userland (or is it oi-build?) into a livecd image identical to one of OI? I mean, are the docs up-to-date with the sources and gates involved? ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Sorry to read about your resignation mate. As a relative newcomer to the project myself, I am not entirely sure of the amount of work that you have done for OI. Although, reading what other fellow developers have said about you, I'm sure it is a lot and your work and efforts put in seem to be appreciated. Leading small projects is timely enough as I am directly aware, as I have done it myself. I can't imagine how timely it must be for a project of the OI scale. These days, I keeper a lower profile in the small projects I'm involved with and just contribute random stuff as I see fit. I am not entirely sure I feel the same way about your comments of Illumos development going nowhere. But I'm not really here to get into that. But rather just wanted to say thanks and good luck for your future projects you might see yourself getting involved with. I'm sure there'll be more just over the horizon. Just keep your involvements small(er)! ;-) Kind regards Chris Jones ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
There are moments for speaking to what has passed, whether a time, a person, or a phenomenon, and there are moments for autopsies. As the two mix awkwardly, I think it mete to deliver only the latter at this moment and speak of the tremendous respect I have for Alasdair for what he attempted with OpenIndiana. He believed that illumos needed and still needs a community that keeps it a general-purpose operating system. He believed that the core technology and innovation it represents is something the free software world should be able to enjoy broadly. He believed a lot more software needed to be ported, used, and maintained on illumos, both for the benefit of the core platform and for the benefit of the larger open-source ecosystem. In furtherance of this, he gave his time and was generous with the support of EveryCity, whose staff were a significant boon to the project and whose hardware kept the project running and building. It is not Alasdair's funeral but OI's that we now mark. I cannot imagine the project regaining momentum without him, nor do I think that one should too quickly discard the traces of what it kept alive over the last several years. OI may not have succeeded in its original ambitions, but one should converse with its ghost, which will remain with us, and try to understand what happened and why in the proper time such a reckoning takes. OI may yet survive in some material sense. As much as anything else, OI was an idea, both in its ambitions and the arrangements it made to pursue them. Ideas live on by evolving: their durable kernel isn't necessarily understood by reflecting on their intellectual substance but by retrospection on the adaptations that allowed it to continue. Only when a more robust practical order is found that resurrects what it attempted will we be able to judge it properly on the strength of its ideas. Alasdair is still with us, and I have no doubt that he will continue to advocate and work for the values that led him to found the project in the first place. Alasdair, I wish you and EveryCity the best, and I look forward to our paths crossing again in what I hope will be brighter days for all involved. Hail, hail, Bayard On Wed, 2012-08-29 at 02:18 +0100, Alasdair Lumsden wrote: > Dear OI Developers, > > It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. I may, if > the situation improves under a new project lead, stick around to offer > my opinion or occasional assistance, but my resignation is final; I have > no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. > > My resignation is primarily driven by a lack of time; I simply cannot > commit the hours necessary to maintain a project of this size. I have my > life, my health (primarily mental), and my future to think of. > > But it is also in part due to frustrations with the difficulty of making > any progress on the project. OpenSolaris was maintained by a large > corporate entity. We however, are volunteers, contributing our personal > time to work on a project we believed in. For many of us this was the > first open source project we had ever contributed to, myself included. > The task at hand was vast, and we were ill equipped to deal with it. > > But what really, right from the very beginning, upset me, was the lack > of interest from the large commercial players benefiting from Illumos, > and from those who had been paid to work on Solaris at Sun. Instead, > what we got, was grief regarding the name (Project Indiana seemingly > being a sore point for Solaris engineers, something I was completely > unaware of when we chose "OpenIndiana"), hostility towards IPS, and a > total lack of interest, encouragement or friendship from people many of > us looked up to when we were mere end-users of Solaris under Sun. > > Right from the very beginning, Illumos was on life-support. I have no > doubt that Nexenta, Delphix, and Joyent in particular will continue to > innovate and that SmartOS will be a success, but support for Solaris > from the open-source software community has over the past 2 years gone > from bad to worse. Only the other day the MongoDB developers responding > to an issue with it segfaulting on OI stated "OI isn't supported, use > Linux": > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/mongodb-user/45C7M_po1No > > I lay the blame of this squarely on the lack of a successful general > purpose distribution of Solaris/Illumos. OpenIndiana was my attempt at > competing with the Linux distros, but our lack of progress has torpedoed > it. Nobody in their right mind would use OI - it ships severely out of > date insecure software, lacks some of the most common 3rd party apps > such as LibreOffice, and so much simple shit that should just work, such > as "pecl install", "gem install", "pip install" or whatever barfs due to > nonsense SunStudio flags, to the point you need a background in computer > science and compiler flags to get it to work. N
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hi, it is not good you resign. And it is not good to see OI going nowhere. Here I had long e-mail about how stupid is to think OI is threat to Nexenta (Oracle way of thinking), how irrelevant is what Bryan Cantrill says, how stupid is to give up developer desktops etc. But nobody would read it and it is not important now. More important is - what is immediate impact of your resignation? Is it end of OI? From my point currently Jon is moving /dev slowly forward - is he willing to continue in it with help from few remaining people? oi-experimental is dead end, so is illumos-userland. Good thing. It was big switch breaking things and wasting resources. oi-build is slowly taking attention as much better way in our current situation. There is question about prestable, if it should stay as prestable or we can accept it as moving dev (as it is now in reality). Would automated release every 2 weeks help? Yes, some releases can be broken but we have BEs and people will be forced to fix things or leave. Currently I fixed the most of things around OI SFE so I can move my attention back to illumos and OI after my vacation the next week. With small change, from July I switched my position in company and my spare time is very limited. But long winter nights are comming :-) Best regards from mad man who is using OI as his primary desktop at home Alasdair Lumsden píše v st 29. 08. 2012 v 02:18 +0100: Dear OI Developers, It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. I may, if the situation improves under a new project lead, stick around to offer my opinion or occasional assistance, but my resignation is final; I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. My resignation is primarily driven by a lack of time; I simply cannot commit the hours necessary to maintain a project of this size. I have my life, my health (primarily mental), and my future to think of. But it is also in part due to frustrations with the difficulty of making any progress on the project. OpenSolaris was maintained by a large corporate entity. We however, are volunteers, contributing our personal time to work on a project we believed in. For many of us this was the first open source project we had ever contributed to, myself included. The task at hand was vast, and we were ill equipped to deal with it. But what really, right from the very beginning, upset me, was the lack of interest from the large commercial players benefiting from Illumos, and from those who had been paid to work on Solaris at Sun. Instead, what we got, was grief regarding the name (Project Indiana seemingly being a sore point for Solaris engineers, something I was completely unaware of when we chose "OpenIndiana"), hostility towards IPS, and a total lack of interest, encouragement or friendship from people many of us looked up to when we were mere end-users of Solaris under Sun. Right from the very beginning, Illumos was on life-support. I have no doubt that Nexenta, Delphix, and Joyent in particular will continue to innovate and that SmartOS will be a success, but support for Solaris from the open-source software community has over the past 2 years gone from bad to worse. Only the other day the MongoDB developers responding to an issue with it segfaulting on OI stated "OI isn't supported, use Linux": https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/mongodb-user/45C7M_po1No I lay the blame of this squarely on the lack of a successful general purpose distribution of Solaris/Illumos. OpenIndiana was my attempt at competing with the Linux distros, but our lack of progress has torpedoed it. Nobody in their right mind would use OI - it ships severely out of date insecure software, lacks some of the most common 3rd party apps such as LibreOffice, and so much simple shit that should just work, such as "pecl install", "gem install", "pip install" or whatever barfs due to nonsense SunStudio flags, to the point you need a background in computer science and compiler flags to get it to work. Not fit for purpose. So what exactly are 3rd party software developers such as the FFMpeg or MongoDB developers supposed to use to develop and test their software on? Buy a SmartDatacenter? Install a storage product? Run it on a database appliance? All of you, Joyent, Nexenta, Delphix, are complicit in the increasing irrelevance of Illumos. OI, even in it's current current state, is by far the most widely used Illumos distro, so by not supporting it beyond contributing to the Illumos core, you've all shot yourselves in the foot. With a fucking shotgun. What's sad is that you don't even see it. It didn't have to be this way. With some assistance we could have made large strides forward - we had lots of solid ideas of how to get things moving. What we lacked was time, graft, and expertise from those who worked on this professionally - items easily supplied by those with deep pockets and pl
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Dear Alasdair, Here at the illumos Foundation, we are very sad to hear of your resignation as lead of the OpenIndiana distribution. You have demonstrated great leadership and have been a wonderful friend of the community. We understand that such projects can be very time consuming, and we wish you all the best in your other endeavors. As a community, many of us share some of your frustrations. At times, progress does appear to be slow. At other times, there may appear to be a lack of interest from many of the former Sun employees. However, although you may feel that there is a lack of support or interest, many of us active in the community feel differently. While OpenIndiana served to carry on the banner of the OpenSolaris distribution, it was obviously a dead end because the desktop wars are over, and even the Linux community could not win. Meanwhile, the flourishing embedded and special purpose markets for illumos technology continue to grow. For example, use of illumos technology is growing in the areas of internet and cloud infrastructure, database and storage appliances, and embedded products. Many successful companies are driving the technology forward and the future has never looked brighter for open source developers looking to contribute to the community and find interesting jobs. Although you may think we don’t see that the expanding free and open source software marketplace is not our total playground, what we do see is a talented, dedicated group of volunteers committed to seeing illumos become an important part of specialized, niche technology solutions, especially for solving critical problems facing the Internet. Honestly, we do not expect the illumos core itself to be economically viable. We do expect--and see--distributions built upon the illumos core becoming commercially successful and growing. This model is similar to the successful Linux model, where the distributions can achieve different results based on the needs of the constituents or the community; some commercial, some less so. The model of OpenSolaris is broken. The model of OpenIndiana following OpenSolaris is broken. The illumos model is following the successful Linux model. This is exemplified by distributions such as the commercially supported, general purpose OmniOS, Joyent’s SmartOS, Delphix OS, and others. In the future, we expect illumos to become a bigger part of the technological community, as many companies now emerging from stealth mode are incorporating our core platform functions. As our community grows, and word continues to spread of our stability, dependability and scalability, we hope to take illumos to even more specialized markets. Among the illumos community of volunteers are some of the smartest, most talented, most dedicated and hard-working people I’ve ever had the pleasure of being associated with. Their years of experience, combined with their insight into the serious problems facing the Internet, assure a rock-solid future for illumos. As a community, we have a shared set of values, and while sometimes we’ve had our disagreements, it’s always been those shared values that have come through and helped the community - and the technology we are building - grow and improve. We will continue to build an enterprise-grade, highly dependable operating system. Again, we are saddened by your leaving. On a personal note, I have enjoyed the collaboration that we shared in the formative days of illumos and OpenIndiana, and I hope we will be able to do so in the future. We thank you for all your efforts on behalf of OpenIndiana and illumos, and know that your efforts have not been in vain; we will take all that we have learned under your leadership and build on it. As a natural evolution of the community, distributions come and go; we take the lessons and move on. Our community has never been one to back down from a challenge; we will handle this in stride and continue to move forward with our mission and our future goals. Sincerely, Garrett D’Amore illumos Founder ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Aug 29, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Joerg Schilling wrote: > > Garret is the base for the recent segregation which may become the base for > the future death of OpenSolaris. I was under the impression that OpenSolaris has been dead for quite some time. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hi Alasdair, I remember exactly the moment when you said on IRC that EveryCity is sponsoring OpenSolaris-like distro effort. I was very excited that you were doing it. I am glad it was you who has started it! Thank you very much for starting OpenIndiana, Alasdair! I am sure the project will carry on. Its userbase is vast and it's got great recognition - there will always be people willing to help out and contribute. Myself, I have learned a lot, met a lot of interesting people and found a fantastic job thanks to the project. I also built more packages from source that I have ever dreamt of! I wish I could spend more time on the project after work... I blame kids for not being able to :) Thanks again Al, Andrzej ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (Joerg Schilling) wrote: > [private to you Alasdair - but I could also make some public remarks] Sorry for the wrong recipitent list. Jörg -- EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni) joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
[private to you Alasdair - but I could also make some public remarks] Alasdair Lumsden wrote: > But it is also in part due to frustrations with the difficulty of making > any progress on the project. OpenSolaris was maintained by a large > corporate entity. We however, are volunteers, contributing our personal > time to work on a project we believed in. For many of us this was the > first open source project we had ever contributed to, myself included. > The task at hand was vast, and we were ill equipped to deal with it. The problem I see is that Illumos only seems to be open to ex Sun employees. > But what really, right from the very beginning, upset me, was the lack > of interest from the large commercial players benefiting from Illumos, > and from those who had been paid to work on Solaris at Sun. Instead, > what we got, was grief regarding the name (Project Indiana seemingly > being a sore point for Solaris engineers, something I was completely > unaware of when we chose "OpenIndiana"), hostility towards IPS, and a > total lack of interest, encouragement or friendship from people many of > us looked up to when we were mere end-users of Solaris under Sun. I am not sure who might have send hostile statements. I am definitely very sceptic to IPS as I've seen to many problems that do not apply to the standard packaging system. Given the fact that all Solaris users I personally know, prefer the SVr4 packaging system and /usr/bin in front of PATH, I believe that Indiana was a step into a direction that excluded traditional Solaris users. Well, this has been done by Ian Murdock who took my project proposal I send to Sun and mixed it with some Debian ideas Given the fact that the number of people that are useful for actively maintaining a OpenSolaris based distro is low, the first mistake was to create Belenix on the ideas of SchilliX but without collaboration. I know that was not you but we have several smaller effects into a similar direction that all together create problems. It would be a pity if OpenSolaris would die. OpenSolaris needs more collaboration and some planning on how different flavors can be created without making major components incompatible between distros. > I lay the blame of this squarely on the lack of a successful general > purpose distribution of Solaris/Illumos. OpenIndiana was my attempt at > competing with the Linux distros, but our lack of progress has torpedoed > it. Nobody in their right mind would use OI - it ships severely out of > date insecure software, lacks some of the most common 3rd party apps > such as LibreOffice, and so much simple shit that should just work, such > as "pecl install", "gem install", "pip install" or whatever barfs due to > nonsense SunStudio flags, to the point you need a background in computer > science and compiler flags to get it to work. Not fit for purpose. See above, with a source base that is reusable (i.e. it must create SVr4 packages) the total effort for all OpenSolaris distros could be reduced. > So what exactly are 3rd party software developers such as the FFMpeg or > MongoDB developers supposed to use to develop and test their software > on? Buy a SmartDatacenter? Install a storage product? Run it on a > database appliance? This is part of OI? > All of you, Joyent, Nexenta, Delphix, are complicit in the increasing > irrelevance of Illumos. OI, even in it's current current state, is by An important point here is the fact that Illumos repeatedly introduces changes that cannot be aggreed with for a general OpenSolaris continuation upstream. Another point is that Illumos does not like collaboration. Garret D'amore aproached me in June 2010 with his plans for Illumos and asked me wether I would be interested to collaborate. I told him, that for me it would important to have support for creating SVr4 packages and he agred. He even offered to immediately integrate star (planned since 2004 - before Solaris 10) and to give me a seat in the Illumos steering board. After the press release of Illumos, things looked different. Nothing has been turned into reality and it seems that Garret just intended to keep me from starting an own project before Illumos. This is the current base for the problems in the OpenSolaris continuation in the time past Sun. If we do not manage to fix these problems, OpenSolaris will be no more than a fileserver for Nexenta and a web server for Joyent. > Instead we got the Illumian farce from Nexenta, along with their senior > staff claiming OI is an existential threat to their continued existence. Nice to see that you see this like I do. Garret started to bite against anything that could exist besides Illumos and now Nexenta bites against anything that existst besides their distro. > With the ZFSOnLinux port becoming increasingly popular (so many of the > Linux users I know are using it), and I see no real threat with that > I hope, I really do
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On 08/29/12 03:18 AM, Alasdair Lumsden wrote: Dear OI Developers, It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. I may, if the situation improves Thank you for Alasdair EverCity support and for making Openindiana. I think we all hope you will continue to be included as extremely valuable leader of Openindiana project who's insights are invaluable. I suppose there is initiative in project leaders to jump into position and to further extend operational structure of Openindiana as best Illumos distribution project. To all reading this: Bare in mind Openindiana is `just` an distribution and any contribution you make, small or big - is bringing back more value to all using it, including you. All your ideas also counts , bug reports, RFEs and support we can give to each other. Also path for commercial support for Openindiana is open, everyone is free to show an initiative. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Alisdair, Thank you. I wish you well in wherever you head. You're enthusiasm and energy will be sorely missed. Gary ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
2012-08-29 5:18, Alasdair Lumsden wrote: It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. I may, if the situation improves under a new project lead, stick around to offer my opinion or occasional assistance, but my resignation is final; I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. Well, it is sure with a heavy heart that one hears (or makes) such news. I sure hope that we'll see and hear more of you again, and that the project does not wither in one way or another. You and me did have some different and sometimes opposing views on what OI should be doing and what is intended to look like (i.e. regarding SVR4 support for importing old local zones from SXCE/Sol10, SPARC distro and stuff like that); still, I prefer to stick with OpenIndiana as long as possible - as the most "understandable" descendant of OpenSolaris. At least, having the common gate infrastructure and building docs in place does leave hope that your personal resignation automatically dooms and closes this wonderful project. Thanks for keeping the servers running ;) And certainly thanks for coping with us for so long and making this distro a reality - however strange it may be after all. I still hope that commercial implementations and sales of support for OI would happen and help maintain the project with paybacks/donations/etc. //Jim Klimov ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hello Alasdair, "Alasdair Lumsden" írta 2012-08-29 02:18-kor: > It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. I may, if > the situation improves under a new project lead, stick around to offer > my opinion or occasional assistance, but my resignation is final; I have > no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. I'm sad about your decesion, but I hope, you think it again or at least show us direction and sy continues your work as great as you did. > But it is also in part due to frustrations with the difficulty of making > any progress on the project. OpenSolaris was maintained by a large I always say to my collegues that: Don't fix sg. which already works! > I lay the blame of this squarely on the lack of a successful general > purpose distribution of Solaris/Illumos. OpenIndiana was my attempt at > competing with the Linux distros, but our lack of progress has torpedoed > it. Nobody in their right mind would use OI - it ships severely out of > date insecure software, lacks some of the most common 3rd party apps > such as LibreOffice, and so much simple shit that should just work, such I think you see a glass half empty. But that glass is almost full, from another point of view: Every Server thing I ever tried on OI is works, and do it's work more stable than the competing linux varinats. Eg. Storage platform: And I'm not talking about ZFS and the advantages of it, but if you want to implement a storage server on Linux You will suck. Suck with the incompatible implementations of iSCSI targets. (And at least all of them is a piece of shit...) That you cannot resize a lun on the fly. All off them sucks by design. On OI you just install comstar, and it just works. I think there is a difference on quality beetween the two approach: Design first than implement (like in OI) and do sg. which seems sign of work, then hack it... Let's see OS level virtualization: On linux there is vserver, openvz, lxc, and who knows what else, with different feature sets. Except LXC all off them is a separate patch. With huge warnings of it's lack of official / out of box support even in distros like Debian... On OI there are zones. Well designed, and simply just works. Again. I could continue, but I hope You see my point. > With the ZFSOnLinux port becoming increasingly popular (so many of the > Linux users I know are using it), and > brtfs/dtrace-on-linux/upstart/whatever else slowly brewing away, even > some of the core features of Illumos are becoming less and less Maybe it's popular. I use (and administer) linux since '96... It's many time. But now, I would never even try a linux (or bsd) zfs implementation, without comstar and the related things I get from OI which is more robust in any beta/alfa/any version of OI, than in a mega-hiper-stable-patched-r release of any linux. > - what matters is perception and the typical Linux user is happy with > "good enough". When I encourage my Linux-using friends to try OI they > laugh in my face. OI and Illumos to them is a dead platform. Add to that > our increasingly out of date and poor hardware support due to the march > of never ending new LAN/SATA/SAS/motherboard/GPU chipsets and you start > to get the picture. With time and wisdom any linux user bore in the hacks, workarounds and other time wasting things, and wants a system which just works. I don't remember where I see the logo, if it was a late (realy open) OpenSoleris or it was on the OpenIndiana boot screen but that phrase is very true: Love at first boot! > Finally, I wish Illumos every success. Ultimately Illumos is what > matters, OI was only ever going to be a vessel for delivering it's power > to end users. May it go from strength to strength and get the > recognition, attention and user-base it so rightly deserves. +1 With many thanks for your work, György Pásztor, end user/sysadmin. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Alasdair Lumsden wrote: Dear OI Developers, It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. Alasdair, Thanks for your effort! Cheers, Henk ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Sad to hear, but I can certainly appreciate the reasons behind it. Regards John G On 08/29/12 18:53, Volker A. Brandt wrote: Hello Alasdair! It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. This is sad news indeed. Thank you for all your work. It has not gone unnoticed, and it stands as an example to others. I personally hope that OI continues in one form or another. Best regards -- Volker ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hi This is a very sad day in the history of open-source effort, I'd like to give Alasdair my support in these moment and I really appreciate his words. The behavior of those big firms that gain a lot from the openindiana initiative, but do not contribute in the same way, is very annoying and break the trust that OI users have with them. This is lack of support is unacceptable, and only the union of all forces, both from the private sector as well as large companies can make OI the best existing operating system. I hope your decision, although final, can be changed. I think you're the right person to lead this project precisely for the courage that you've had so far. Thank you Paolo Marcheschi On 08/29/12 03:18, Alasdair Lumsden wrote: Dear OI Developers, It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. I may, if the situation improves under a new project lead, stick around to offer my opinion or occasional assistance, but my resignation is final; I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. My resignation is primarily driven by a lack of time; I simply cannot commit the hours necessary to maintain a project of this size. I have my life, my health (primarily mental), and my future to think of. But it is also in part due to frustrations with the difficulty of making any progress on the project. OpenSolaris was maintained by a large corporate entity. We however, are volunteers, contributing our personal time to work on a project we believed in. For many of us this was the first open source project we had ever contributed to, myself included. The task at hand was vast, and we were ill equipped to deal with it. But what really, right from the very beginning, upset me, was the lack of interest from the large commercial players benefiting from Illumos, and from those who had been paid to work on Solaris at Sun. Instead, what we got, was grief regarding the name (Project Indiana seemingly being a sore point for Solaris engineers, something I was completely unaware of when we chose "OpenIndiana"), hostility towards IPS, and a total lack of interest, encouragement or friendship from people many of us looked up to when we were mere end-users of Solaris under Sun. Right from the very beginning, Illumos was on life-support. I have no doubt that Nexenta, Delphix, and Joyent in particular will continue to innovate and that SmartOS will be a success, but support for Solaris from the open-source software community has over the past 2 years gone from bad to worse. Only the other day the MongoDB developers responding to an issue with it segfaulting on OI stated "OI isn't supported, use Linux": https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/mongodb-user/45C7M_po1No I lay the blame of this squarely on the lack of a successful general purpose distribution of Solaris/Illumos. OpenIndiana was my attempt at competing with the Linux distros, but our lack of progress has torpedoed it. Nobody in their right mind would use OI - it ships severely out of date insecure software, lacks some of the most common 3rd party apps such as LibreOffice, and so much simple shit that should just work, such as "pecl install", "gem install", "pip install" or whatever barfs due to nonsense SunStudio flags, to the point you need a background in computer science and compiler flags to get it to work. Not fit for purpose. So what exactly are 3rd party software developers such as the FFMpeg or MongoDB developers supposed to use to develop and test their software on? Buy a SmartDatacenter? Install a storage product? Run it on a database appliance? All of you, Joyent, Nexenta, Delphix, are complicit in the increasing irrelevance of Illumos. OI, even in it's current current state, is by far the most widely used Illumos distro, so by not supporting it beyond contributing to the Illumos core, you've all shot yourselves in the foot. With a fucking shotgun. What's sad is that you don't even see it. It didn't have to be this way. With some assistance we could have made large strides forward - we had lots of solid ideas of how to get things moving. What we lacked was time, graft, and expertise from those who worked on this professionally - items easily supplied by those with deep pockets and plenty to gain from our success. Instead we got the Illumian farce from Nexenta, along with their senior staff claiming OI is an existential threat to their continued existence. And when I asked for help back in November, we got Bryan Cantrill telling us all "when you want to do something, just do it" - rich coming from someone paid to work on all this whilst the OI devs volunteer their personal time, often at considerable personal sacrifice, to work on this stuff. With the ZFSOnLinux port becoming increasingly popular (so many of the Linux users I know are using it), and brtfs/dtrace-on-linux/upstart/whatever else slowly brewing away, even so
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Volker A. Brandt wrote: > Hello Alasdair! > > >> It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. > > This is sad news indeed. Thank you for all your work. It has not > gone unnoticed, and it stands as an example to others. I personally > hope that OI continues in one form or another. +1 -- Michael Schuster http://recursiveramblings.wordpress.com/ ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hello Alasdair! > It is with much sadness that I hereby resign as project lead. This is sad news indeed. Thank you for all your work. It has not gone unnoticed, and it stands as an example to others. I personally hope that OI continues in one form or another. Best regards -- Volker -- Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/ Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: v...@bb-c.de Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46 Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] Resignation as OI Lead
Hello Alasdair: Thank you for all of your selfless efforts. Warmest regards-- Ken ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
