Re: [ApacheCon] BoF session on AOO community

[Donald Whytock]

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:
>
> Shouldnt this be on ooo-marketing?

Probably.  But it was in response to Peter's questions about ApacheCon
EU discussion topics, one of which was about end-user software vs. the
typical Apache offering, and how a big difference is that "AOO needs a
big marketing effort to reach its users and constantly growing that
user base."

I just think such a discussion should include thoughts on what said
marketing effort can and should hope to accomplish for a FOSS product
vs. a commercial one.

Don

Re: [ApacheCon] BoF session on AOO community

[Donald Whytock]

About Peter's point #2...I suppose this is getting kind of abstract,
but what is the payoff from expanding AOO's community?  Typically
marketing is performed to increase sales, which earns money; AOO has
no sales, so what should the intended benefit from marketing be?

How does Apache gain from a larger user base for AOO?  More users ->
more traffic -> more demand for resources -> more demand for people
that maintain infrastructure and the money to pay for said
infrastructure.  What is Apache's interest in promoting its offering
of AOO?

How does AOO gain from a larger user base?  More beta-testing, more
word-of-mouth exposure, more potential donors?  More representative
clout for acquiring resources from Apache?

I'm not saying -- I would never say -- that making AOO available to
the world is a bad or unnecessary thing.  Given monopolistic business
practices and commercialization of software available, it's important
for there to be freely available alternatives to such things as an
office productivity suite.  But if marketing is going to occur, it
would be good to know what said marketing is meant to accomplish,
other than promotion for promotion's sake.  Promotion for promotion's
sake is the organizational manifestation of a viral idea.

If there's to be a discussion on marketing, perhaps it should include
a manifesto that's more concrete and strategic than "Don't you think
this is great?  Let's throw money at it until you do."

Don

Re: [PROPOSAL] "difficulty" field for Bugzilla

[Donald Whytock]

Apache Camel uses an "Estimated Complexity" custom field in the Apache
Issues Tracker.  Current values in it are "Any", "Unknown", "Novice",
"Moderate", "Advanced", "Guru" and "Needs James Gosling".

Had to look him up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gosling

Don

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts  wrote:
>
> On 12-10-24, at 16:28 , "Dennis E. Hamilton"  wrote:
>
>> @Regina,
>>
>> Yes, Wizard is a reference to the level of mastery that a solver must
>> possess, and is one of those "which one of these words does not belong"
>> solutions.
>>
>> There is a well-known *logarithmic* difficulty scale that has been used
>> over 40 years for problem difficulty.  It might be worth adapting:
>>
>> (after unknown),
>>
>>  00 easy - immediately solvable by someone willing to do it
>>  10 simple - takes minutes
>>  20 medium, average - quarter hour
>>  30 moderate, an evening
>>  40 difficult, challenging, non-trivial (term project, GSoC...)
>>  50 unsolved, deep, requires a breakthrough, research
>> (PhD dissertation)
>>  60 intractable (that I just made up - probably not something that
>> is technically feasible regardless of skill, Nobel Prize,
>> P = NP, etc.)
>>
>> I suspect this scale has too much at the low end and perhaps not
>> enough steps at the high end.   Perhaps there are two factors - skills and
>> work factor - how long for someone of the necessary skills?  Or else
>> work factor is suggestive of the level of skill?
>>
>> easy - minutes (fixing a typo on a web page)
>> simple - hour(s)
>> moderate - days
>> difficult, challenging - weeks
>> hard, demanding - months
>> stubborn - years (aka, intractable)
>>
>> All of these assume fluency with basic tools and facility with the subject 
>> matter of the issue.
>>
>> For example, fixing change-tracking is at least hard.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
> One aspect that has been used and not used enough is to consider this in 
> light of how a student or neophyte might approach the task and whether it 
> demands the added help a mentor can offer.
>
> Louis
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Regina Henschel [mailto:rb.hensc...@t-online.de]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 13:04
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] "difficulty" field for Bugzilla
>>
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> Rob Weir schrieb:
>>> As you have probably noticed, I'm engaged in a variety of initiatives
>>> to grow the community, bring in more volunteers, etc.  One additional
>>> piece that I think would be useful is to add a new field to Bugzilla
>>> to indicate the difficulty level of the bug.  Of course, this will
>>> often not be known.  But in some cases, we do know, and where we do
>>> know we can indicate this.
>>>
>>> What this allows us to do is then have search filters that return only
>>> open easy bugs.  These are ideal for new developer volunteers on the
>>> project who are looking for items that match their lesser familiarity
>>> with the code.  It also allows a developer to step up to more
>>> challenging bugs over time.
>>>
>>> A similar approach, which they called "easy hacks", was successfully
>>> used by LibreOffice.
>>>
>>> If there are no objections, I'll add a new field to Bugzilla called
>>> "cf_difficulty_level", and which a drop down UI with the following
>>> choices:
>>>
>>> UNKNOWN (default)
>>> TRIVIAL
>>> EASY
>>> MODERATE
>>> HARD
>>> WIZARD
>>
>> WIZARD is used in AOO UI in the meaning of 'assistant' or step by step
>> workflow. Therefore it might be not understood here. I need to look up
>> other meanings in a dictionary. I would drop it. HARD as highest step is
>> sufficient.
>>
>> TRIVIAL sounds devaluating to me. Perhaps BEGINNER or STARTER is more
>> neutral? Being able to start is not only a question, whether the task is
>> easy or not from an objective point of view. Beyond that a mentor is
>> needed. Perhaps a category MENTORED instead of TRIVIAL is useful. A
>> senior developer would set it (and put himself in CC) if he is willing
>> to guide a newcomer.
>>
>>>
>>> (I'm certainly open to variations on the names)
>>>
>>> I'd then rely on other developers to help "seed" the database with
>>> some TRIVIAL and EASY bugs, so new volunteers will have something to
>>> work with as they familiarize themselves with the project.
>>>
>>> I'll wait 72 hours, etc.
>>
>> In general I thing it is a good idea. Using Bugzilla has the advantage,
>> that it is not necessary to hold a Wiki page in sync with Bugzilla.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Regina
>>
>

Re: How many countries has AOO been downloaded from?

[Donald Whytock]

Should a form of this appear on the AOO blog?

Don

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 2:12 PM, jan iversen  wrote:
> I think the fact that it is not our data is important, but I agree that
> putting the link there could be a problem.
>
> Could we not simply write that our data "comes from" or are "verified by",
> and then a general link ?
>
> Jan.
>
> On 19 October 2012 20:00, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:55 PM, jan iversen 
>> wrote:
>> > This is really a lot more convincing than just a number, and something to
>> > be proud of !!
>> >
>>
>> And intriguing.  It shows 62 downloads from the Vatican City.  So Pope
>> Benedict, of course.  But who are the other 61 ;-)
>>
>> > Would it be an idea, to put a link in the on openoffice.org to this
>> page,
>> > e.g. in the news area with the name (download statistics) ?
>> >
>>
>> It might need some scripting, since the URL includes a date range as
>> parameters.  And in general I hesitate to put a home page link to some
>> else's database query, due to the load it could generate for them.  We
>> get 250K+ home page visits/day.  That could generate a lot of queries.
>>  So maybe we could take that info periodically (it doesn't change too
>> quickly) and put a static version up on the website.  That is what we
>> do currently for the download counts:
>> http://www.openoffice.org/stats/
>>
>> -rob
>>
>> > Jan.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 19 October 2012 19:44, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've seen some online traffic, on Twitter and elsewhere, questioning
>> >> the claim in our graduation press release that AOO has been downloaded
>> >> by users in "228 countries".  The critics of this claim say that there
>> >> are not that many countries in the world.
>> >>
>> >> Well, it depends on how you define things.  There are UN countries.
>> >> There are Olympic countries.  There are postal countries.  There are
>> >> countries with telephone country codes.  And so on.  These don't all
>> >> correspond with each other. (Look at the complexities with the status
>> >> of Taiwan or Macedonia, for example).
>> >>
>> >> The definition used when looking at internet traffic is (not
>> >> surprisingly) "internet countries", e.g., countries with an assigned
>> >> ccTLD (
>> >>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_top-level_domains#Country_code_top-level_domains
>> >> ).
>> >>  In this scheme, for example, Martinique (.mq) and France (.fr) are
>> >> two different countries, although politically Martinique is an
>> >> overseas region, or région d'outre-mer, of France.
>> >>
>> >> You can see the complete list of internet countries from which AOO has
>> >> been downloaded here:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://sourceforge.net/projects/openofficeorg.mirror/files/stats/map?dates=2012-06-01+to+2012-10-19
>> >>
>> >> As you can see, the number is now 232, indicating that the press
>> >> release understated the number.
>> >>
>> >> Anyone who is interested can take this publicly available data and map
>> >> it to whatever other country-counting convention they wish, whether
>> >> based on UN membership, US diplomatic recognition, Universal Postal
>> >> Union, or whatever.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> -Rob
>> >>
>>

Re: There is an "orb logo with gulls" on openSUSE installer

[Donald Whytock]

"The openSUSE's orb is
in a darker blue and the gulls are not white, but it is clearly based on
the AOO logo."

...The dark side of open source?

Don

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 12:45 PM, RGB ES  wrote:
> Yesterday I upgraded my system to openSUSE 12.2. The installer, when
> copying packages to the hard drive offer a slide show to highlight the main
> openSUSE characteristics. What caught my eye on this slide show is the part
> that talk about the office suite: openSUSE distribute LibO, but instead of
> using the TDF logo you can see an orb with two gulls. The openSUSE's orb is
> in a darker blue and the gulls are not white, but it is clearly based on
> the AOO logo.
>
> Not sure if this is this a "trademark issue" or something non important...
> what do you think?
>
> Regards
> Ricardo

Re: BItTorrents -- do we care?

[Donald Whytock]

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:
> I disagree stongly. Seeding torrents is a bandwith-intensive, and
> particularly upstream-intensive proposition. Most residential
> broadband links -at least down here in .AR- are limited to 512K to 256
> Kbps upstream speed. Only a minority has FTTH or DOCSIS 3.0 cable
> modems, and in those insteances upstream has an average on 1 Mbit.
>
> Torrenting -and particularly seeding- only starts to get interesting
> with upstream speeds above 1Mbit.

Actually, torrenting starts to get interesting with swarms.  The more
people that seed, the greater the chances that the packets you need
will be immediately available.  Even if they don't have a lot of
bandwidth as individuals, as a collection they're as accessible as a
high-speed disk drive.

> On the other hand if you have 256 Kbps of upstream and suddenly you
> find yourself seeding a popular file to several users at once, you
> suddenly find that your ´broadband´ sucks, ie, you can´t send any big
> email attachment or upload files to the cloud because all your tiny
> upstream is being used by the torrents. -yes, one can fine-tune the bw
> allocation, but as I said above, with upstream speeds as low as 512K
> or 256K  any fraction of a tiny pipe is an even tinier pipe.

Mine's 768K, and that's the low end for my ISP.  I typically set aside
150K for bittorrent upload and don't feel it with anything else that I
do.  I know that's not a huge contribution, but again, swarms.

Set up a torrent for AOO and I'll be happy to help seed.  And I
promise to not block Argentinians.

> So, in the words of Vint Cerf "residential broadband connections are crippled"
>
> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1016487/home-broadband-customers-are-crippled-vint-cerf-reckons

Dude...Are you citing yourself?

Don

Re: [DISCUSS]: next step towards graduation

[Donald Whytock]

Volatility check, please, people.

Don

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:
> Hello;
>
> - Original Message -
>> From: Rob Weir
> ...
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:18 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton 
>> wrote:
>>>  I'm sorry, Rob.  Those files are toxic *for me*.  I can't touch
>> them in their present state.  I also don't want to read them in their
>> present state until the provenance and permissive licensing is dealt with.
>>>
>>
>> The files are covered by an SGA, checked in by an IBM employee covered
>> by an iCLA and a CCLA.  That is a triple assurance.   If the only
>> thing that is holding you back from being productive with these files
>> is the copyright header, then I'll make an extra effort to see if I
>> can help you there.  I wouldn't want you to be blocked for the lack of
>> this.But I really wish you would have mentioned this before the
>> day we're proposing graduation.  The contribution of Symphony was made
>> months ago.
>>
>>>  What is irrelevant for you is not irrelevant for me.  And you're not my
>> lawyer.
>>>
>>>  Offering to remove the files is bizarre.  What is that, slash-dot bait?
>>>
>>
>> No, I'm serious.  If this is a blocking issue for anyone, I'm willing,
>> able and happy to delete. I wouldn't want anyone concerned about
>> "toxic files" in SVN.  When Pedro had concerns with the Cat-b  files
>> in SVN he was praised for his "axe".  I'm just offering to use
>> mine as
>> well.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>
> Who "praised" my axe? I recall *you* threatened to veto it :-P.
> And now that you bring back the issue, I still think the cat-B files have to 
> be
> deleted *before* graduation.
>
> The Symphony code is not relevant because none of it belongs to a release
> yet. I do tend to agree that the code is only for reference and only IBM can
> merge stuff.
>
> Pedro.
>
> ps. so far I have been the only one doing merges from AOO to Symphony ;).

Re: Draft Blog Post: Calling all Consultants

[Donald Whytock]

A thought about target audience: If the post addresses consultants,
users should perhaps be referred to in the third person...

"But in some cases, with larger, customized deployments, migrations,
more complex requirements, etc., you might need some extra help, some
professional expertise to help you get where you want to go."

->

"But in some cases, with larger, customized deployments, migrations,
more complex requirements, etc., users might need some extra help,
some professional expertise to help them get where they want to go."

Don

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:
>> Was this a typo?
>> Note: At Apache we never play for development, and we do not recommend
>> or endorse specific consultants.
>>
>> pay-play?
>>
>
> Yes, it should be "pay".
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rob
>
>> On 10/8/12, Rob Weir  wrote:
>>> https://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=calling_all_openoffice_consultants
>>>
>>> Comments are welcome.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alexandro Colorado
>> PPMC Apache OpenOffice
>> http://es.openoffice.org

Re: Seeking OpenOffice consultants -- help us validate our new consultants listings

[Donald Whytock]

Do you want to throw in language as a datum?  Someone might reasonably
list themselves as "Global" but be limited to, say, the
english-speaking world.

Don

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Albino B Neto  wrote:
>>> > Hi.
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>>> >> So I'm wondering... are there other kinds of certification of
>>> >> interest, beyond user certification?  Does anyone currently (or do we
>>> >> anticipate) something like a "Certified OpenOffice Developer"?  If so
>>> >> we might want to reserve categories for "User Certification" and
>>> >> "Developer Certification".  (Admin certification as well?)
>>> >
>>> > Certification can be wide. How can we have certification for users,
>>> > consultants, developers, I believe this could have shed, or maybe just
>>> > for users and developers.
>>> >
>>> > It will depend on where the project wants to reach, but I think having
>>> > to Users, Consultants and Developers.
>>> >
>>> > Because consultants and User: User who want to teach, increases your
>>> > resume. Consultants who wish to migrate to companies etc.
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> OK.  Let me restate this in another way:
>>>
>>> If we have a fixed schema (a fixed taxonomy or list of "areas of
>>> practice") then this allows us to generate an UI that categories by
>>> this value.  So we could have a table of contents or navigation error
>>> that takes you to a list of only "Migration" experts or only
>>> "Certification" experts.  For this to work well we need a pre-defined
>>> list, of maybe 5-12 categories that we can fit everyone into.   But if
>>> every listing has its own unique category, then this is not very
>>> useful.  It doesn't help the consultant or the site visitor.
>>>
>>> But I don't want to do anything unnatural either.  If the real world
>>> doesn't fit neatly into 5-12 categories, we could abandon that kind of
>>> categorization and just have it be a free entry field with no special
>>> navigation.  Or even eliminate it altogether in favor of the
>>> unstructured "description" field.
>>>
>>> If we think we'll have many listings (more than a page) then having a
>>> categorization would be helpful to the user, I think, to help them
>>> find what they are looking for more easily.
>>>
>>>
>>> In any case thanks to Ian for the listing data.  Can anyone else offer
>>> a listing?  Alexandro, perhaps?
>>>
>>
>> Our taxonomy only expanded to 3 'tags', Developer, Training, Consultant.
>> Consulting would cover migration services.
>> Development would cover VARs and ISV.
>> Training will cover certification, book publishers, freelance trainers etc.
>>
>> It was common for companies to have two or three categories.
>>
>
> I'm looking at the legacy OOo consultants.ods file, which used to be
> on the website.  It was structured like this:
>
> - 404 entities listed
>
> - grouped by country
>
> - sorted by country and local region, e.g. state or province
>
> - no description field, only the entity's name and URL
>
> - one or more categories from this list:
>
> Training (or training materials) - T
> Light customization (macros, templates, ...) - L
> Installation (support, pre-installation or distribution) - I
> Help desk services, general support – H
> Software programming (on demand / custom) - S
> Custom programming (plug-ins, addons, etc) – P
>
> Of course, we don't need to do exactly the same thing, but that is one
> example view of the world.
>
> -Rob
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>
>>> > Albino
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alexandro Colorado
>> PPMC Apache OpenOffice
>> http://es.openoffice.org

Re: Policy question: How to link to books about OpenOffice?

[Donald Whytock]

Amazon can be considered a publisher.  They have a mechanism for
publishing one's own ebook.

If you're going to allow authors to make their own entries a la
consultants, they should probably be allowed to submit whatever link
they'd prefer.  That might be an Amazon or B&N link, as the author
might not otherwise have his own page.

Different but related question: ASF would not want to certify,
recommend or otherwise vet consultants because (among other things)
they're changing entities, and may unexpectedly defraud, default or
retire.  Books, on the other hand, are fairly static.  Should there be
a list of AOO-vetted books, which have been reviewed and proven to be
reasonably helpful and accurate?

Don

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On our support website, at the bottom, we have a list of
> OpenOffice-related books:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/support/
>
> As you see, we have links to 3rd party pages for purchasing the books,
> usually Amazon or Lulu.
>
> I'm in the process of updating this page, as part of adding a list of
> consultants, and it occurred to me that we should probably think about
> how Shane's draft linking policy applies to books:
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking
>
> One way to think of it is to treat the publisher or author (for
> self-published books) as the "consultant" in the terms of the policy.
> They are the ones providing the service, via their book.  So we would
> allow linking to the author's website or the publisher's website which
> describes the book.  But we would not link to Amazon, since they are a
> retailer, not the author or the publisher.
>
> Otherwise, same criteria as consultants -- factual list, respect
> trademark, impartial,  rel="nofollow", etc.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
> -Rob

Re: Call for comments: Webpage for Listing OpenOffice Consultants

[Donald Whytock]

Still suggesting some sort of expiration mechanism (perhaps a
timestamp in the entry, with a scheduled job to prune), so this
doesn't become a barnacle colony.

Don

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> Another one of those "larger ecosystem" things I'll be pushing on.
>
> If you recall the legacy OpenOffice.org project had a webpage that
> listed various consultants who provided services for OpenOffice.  We
> took it down because it was very out of date and we didn't have time
> (at that time) to figure out the policy implications and update the
> content.  Well guess what?  I have time now.
>
> > A draft of a proposed approach is on the wiki here:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Draft+--+Apache+OpenOffice+Consultants+Directory
> <
>
> I'm working on the XSLT script now.  Looking good so far.
>
> If you read the wiki you'll see the policy implications are minimal:
> We'll be fair and accept all relevant submitted listings, provided
> they don't abuse ASF trademarks,   I don't think we need more than
> that, but adding more is certainly easy enough.
>
> Note also the disclaimer on the wiki, which I'll repeat here.  As a
> non-profit we need to be careful about how we intersect with
> commercial activities.  I think this is sufficient, but changes are
> easy to make.
>
> "Disclaimer:   Although most individual users are able to download and
> use Apache OpenOffice without any help, or with the assistance of
> volunteers on our Forums and mailing lists, some users, especially
> corporate users, may have more complex requirements that require
> commercial services in order to optimize their deployments.  The
> following individuals and firms offer services that may be of
> interest.   The information provided here was provided by the entities
> named here, and is not verified or endorsed by the Apache OpenOffice
> project.  We offer these listings as a service to the ecosystem."
>
> If there are no objections to this general approach, I'll proceed as follows:
>
> 1) Write up a definition of the requirements for the input XML file.
> XML Schema and plain English definition, for use by consultants
> submitting us listings
>
> 2) Draft a webpage giving info on how consultants can submit a
> listing.  Would list technical and policy requirements.
>
> 3) Complete XSLT scripts and get them checked in.
>
> 4) Get this all onto the website into a test directory for review.
> Perhaps we seed it with initial data from project members who provide
> services, so we have something at launch time other than fake data.
>
> 5) Once approved, we go live.  The legacy project buried this under
> the "support" page, but I think we should offer a more prominent
> location, perhaps a link on the home page.
>
> 6) Promote via blog, social networking, etc.
>
> 7) PMC reviews incoming submissions, etc.  Routine maintenance.
>
> Note: this same approach (Submission instructions page + XML/XSLT to
> generate user-facing XHTML page) would also work very nicely for a CD
> Distributor listing page.  It should be possible to copy this
> approach, including the XSLT script, even including this note, and
> with some modifications reuse it for that purpose.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Rob

Re: Draft Blog Post: Use the Source, Luke

[Donald Whytock]

Syntax-weenie:

"has and continues to grow" -> "has grown and continues to grow"

"but also helping users use it" -> "but also by helping users use it"

"natural for an product" -> "natural for a product" (or "natural for
any product"?)

"optimized for a specific install scenarios" -> "optimized for
specific install scenarios"

"Our Extensions websites" -- there's more than one?

Don


On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 3:02 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
>> On 25/09/2012 Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>> https://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=use_the_source_luke
>>
>>
>> It's good, as usual, but it would feel more complete with some specific call
>> to action, like giving potential code contributors (core, extensions)
>> pointers to get involved.
>>
>
> OK.  What links would you recommend for someone who wanted to take
> their first look at the source code? Building guide, for certain.  Any
> other good introductory information?
>
>> The web server is called "Apache HTTP Server" and I've seen its modules
>> called just "modules" most of the time. There are some other possible typos
>> around, like "an product", but you can surely spot them better than me in
>> the final proofreading.
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.

Re: download page path

[Donald Whytock]

That did work.  Thanks.  Should that be included on the project page?

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Marcus (OOo)  wrote:
> Am 09/21/2012 08:31 PM, schrieb Albino B Neto:
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Donald Whytock
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is there a path to the download page that's based on the apache.org
>>> domain?  My company's firewall system has decided openoffice.org is
>
>
> http://ooo-site.staging.apache.org/download/index.html
>
> As it's not in the test area or something else but the one that is publicly
> known, it should be OK to use it as alternative.
>
> HTH
>
>
>>> "Freeware and Shareware".
>>>
>>> And yes, they say that like it's a bad thing.
>
>
> There will always be people that think in black and white pattern and do not
> want to see whats in between. ;-(
>
>
>> Yes.
>>
>> The university I study also blocked the access openoffice.org
>>
>> I asked why blocked, and not answer. :(
>
>
> Really? A university? I cannot believe it.
>
> Marcus
>

download page path

[Donald Whytock]

Is there a path to the download page that's based on the apache.org
domain?  My company's firewall system has decided openoffice.org is
"Freeware and Shareware".

And yes, they say that like it's a bad thing.

Don

Re: Torrent connection for AOo 3.4.x download

[Donald Whytock]

It's more than cool.  A proper torrent client is a step up from an
ordinary download manager in that it's tolerant of both poor
connections and instances of blocked paths to a specific connection.
It doesn't resume interrupted downloads as much as handle downloads in
whatever quantities it can get.

I have a cable modem in a Washington DC area suburb, and yet my
connection's sufficiently flaky that torrenting works better than
direct-downloading, even with a download manager.  I assume a lot of
the world isn't as well-connected as me.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Raphael Bircher  wrote:
>> But I could ask my brother if he is willing to setup a torrent tracker
>> for us. He was working on the torrent at the old OOo project.
>>
>> I'm willing to host a seeding peer
>
> Wouldn´t this impact on the tracking of downloads? I mean... the
> SourceForge download stats will no longer be the true download count.
> How would Apache track torrent downloads and add the numbers to the
> SF.net stats?.
>
> I think this is a valid concern...
>
> Plus, torrents are good to save on bandwidth, but lack of bandwidth
> with SF.net´s network of world-wide mirrors doesn´t seem to be the
> case here. So, again, why the need for a torrent?. "because it´s cool"
> doesn´t hold, IMHO...
> FC

Re: Torrent connection for AOo 3.4.x download

[Donald Whytock]

Has anyone asked/is anyone asking Infra about a torrent tracker?

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Albino B Neto  wrote:
> Hi.
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Raphael Bircher  wrote:
>> Hi Rory
>>
>> Am 30.08.12 12:57, schrieb Rory O'Farrell:
>>> This morning the en-Forum received the following query
>>> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=55992
>>>
>>> To save you looking it up, the User asked if there would be a torrent 
>>> connection for AOO 3.4.x, as there had been for OOo 3.3 and earlier.
>> At the Moment no. But it's not the first request for torrent. Torrent
>> would be also interesting for unofficial Developer builds, to distribute
>> the load a bit on defferent computer. The problem is: at the Moment we
>> have no Torrent Tracker.
>
> Yeah!
>
>> But I could ask my brother if he is willing to setup a torrent tracker
>> for us. He was working on the torrent at the old OOo project.
>>
>> I'm willing to host a seeding peer
>
> Me too.
>
> I can help create torrent tracker, but first remember how do.
>
> Albino

Re: BItTorrents -- do we care?

[Donald Whytock]

One good thing about bittorrent is that it's less dependent on a
single source.  There has to be at least one primary seed, but once
the packet's out there a client has less need to reach that primary
seed.  A download manager may be able to handle resuming interrupted
downloads (if the host is), but it's still dependent on being able to
reach a single source.

It would be great if the various Apache mirrors could all be
bittorrent seeders.  I'm vaguely surprised this isn't the case.

Don

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Rory O'Farrell  wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:13:24 -0400
>> Rob Weir  wrote:
>>
>>> I've recently seen a few requests for ability to download AOO via a
>>> torrent. something we do not currently provide.
>>>
>>> I see that OOo did this for legacy versions:
>>> http://www.openoffice.org/distribution/p2p/
>>>
>>> According to the scripts on this page, it looks like it was run by a
>>> "Mike" in the Netherlands (http://borft.student.utwente.nl/~mike).
>>>
>>> Is this worth doing for AOO?  Is this critical for any class of user?
>>> Or just "nice to have"?
>>>
>>> I'm willing to help seed the torrents if we think there is a definite
>>> need for this.  We'd want a few other volunteers willing to do this as
>>> well.  Of course, ideally we'd have the torrent seeded by an existing
>>> mirror, but that may not be possible.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>
>> From time to time on the Forum there are reports from frustrated posters of 
>> repeated bad downloads; these are usually solved after they are recommended 
>> to switch  to a torrent download.  Remember that in some areas of the world 
>> communications are still limited to modem downloads over bad lines. If it is 
>> reasonably possible to provide torrents, then we should do so.
>>
>
> I understand the benefits.  But don't download accelerators/download
> managers accomplish the same goals, but are easier to use and are more
> mainstream?
>
> In other words, for 99% of normal end users in a low bandwidth/high
> latency/unreliable connections, wouldn't a download manager over http
> be the better solution?
>
> (BitTorrents serve another purpose, for cases where both the uploading
> machine(s) and downloading machine have poor connections.  But we're
> not really in that situation, since we have robust mirror support via
> SourceForge.  We only need to deal with poorly connected clients).
>
> Note that I'm not against providing this support.  I just want to
> figure out, in terms of my own personal priorities, whether this is a
> necessity and some users have no other way of getting AOO, or whether
> this is "nice to have" where we have adequate, albeit less sexy,
> alternatives.
>
> -Rob
>
>> I'm off line (immediately) for the next week - London for art exhibitions en 
>> route to a meeting in Birmingham.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rory O'Farrell 

Re: OpenOffice.org Business Partnership Inquiry

[Donald Whytock]

This is the third occurrence of the exact same letter from Faith.  I'm
thinking autogen.  There really should be an unsubscribe...

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Ian Lynch  wrote:
> On 7 September 2012 07:49, fa...@filepuma.com  wrote:
>> Hi OpenOffice.org Webmaster,
>>
>> I'm sorry to bother you.
>> I am Faith from Filepuma.com. I write to you just to consult whether we can 
>> have a potential chance to cooperate with you. And recently we have updated 
>> your product at our site that you can have a visit.
>>
>> Filepuma.com is a website for providing the simplest method of downloading 
>> the newest versions of the best software, and we are not focusing on 
>> quantity but quality. To make your downloads as fast as possible, we provide 
>> very fast servers with 100Mb connections.
>>
>> You are really a great tool and OpenOffice.org enjoys great reputation among 
>> users. We're very interested in becoming the mirror for OpenOffice.org 
>> download. I'm sure our partnership can guarantee you great advantages. We 
>> can do a few things to promote your program like newsletter mentions and 
>> front-page exposure.
>>
>> If you have any other ideas we are very open and happy to discuss them on 
>> becoming OpenOffice.org's mirror download link. What we want to have is a 
>> win-win relationship that benefits us both. We strongly think that business 
>> cooperation between you and us will be a wise decision, and both of us can 
>> have more triumphs.
>>
>> Looking forward to receiving your feedback very much. Thanks for your time.
>>
>> P.S. If answering mails like this one is not among your daily tasks, please 
>> forward it to the appropriate executive. Thanks again.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Faith Lee
>> fa...@filepuma.com
>> Filepuma.com
>>
>
> Hi Fasith,
>
> There is nothing to stop you creating a download mirror for Apache
> OpenOffice as long as trademarks are respected. We encourage as wide a
> distribution of the software as possible. ASF trademark policy is at
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks.  A good start would be to
> familiarise yourself with this policy so that you can see if there are
> likely to be any conflicts in what you propose to do. Please come back
> if you have any questions.
>
> --
> Ian Lynch PPMC member

Re: OpenOffice.org Business Partnership Inquiry

[Donald Whytock]

Duplicate of 21 June letter.

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 2:17 AM, fa...@filepuma.com  wrote:
> Hi OpenOffice.org Webmaster,
>
> I'm sorry to bother you.
> I am Faith from Filepuma.com. I write to you just to consult whether we can 
> have a potential chance to cooperate with you. And recently we have updated 
> your product at our site that you can have a visit.
>
> Filepuma.com is a website for providing the simplest method of downloading 
> the newest versions of the best software, and we are not focusing on quantity 
> but quality. To make your downloads as fast as possible, we provide very fast 
> servers with 100Mb connections.
>
> You are really a great tool and OpenOffice.org enjoys great reputation among 
> users. We're very interested in becoming the mirror for OpenOffice.org 
> download. I'm sure our partnership can guarantee you great advantages. We can 
> do a few things to promote your program like newsletter mentions and 
> front-page exposure.
>
> If you have any other ideas we are very open and happy to discuss them on 
> becoming OpenOffice.org's mirror download link. What we want to have is a 
> win-win relationship that benefits us both. We strongly think that business 
> cooperation between you and us will be a wise decision, and both of us can 
> have more triumphs.
>
> Looking forward to receiving your feedback very much. Thanks for your time.
>
> P.S. If answering mails like this one is not among your daily tasks, please 
> forward it to the appropriate executive. Thanks again.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Faith Lee
> fa...@filepuma.com
> Filepuma.com
>

Re: [Marketing][UX] Who wants to do a Content Experiment?

[Donald Whytock]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> And if anyone is interested, a clue as to why these particular
> visitors are downloading AOO less might be gleamed by loading our
> download page on an older version of I.E.   Remember, to get this
> dialog in Windows, one must be running an older machine that does not
> understand ODF, so pre-Windows 7, and pre-Office 2007 SP2.

Perhaps there's a significant percentage of non-ODF-savvy people who
receive ODF files that don't want to edit it as much as see it.  AOO
is a pretty heavyweight download.  Does there exist the ODF equivalent
of Adobe Reader, some lightweight utility that can just display
contents?

I know this doesn't necessarily address the content experiment
question, but it could be the nature/tone/format of the content isn't
the issue.

Don

Re: On parks, commons, and websites

[Donald Whytock]

I like the spirit of your analogy.  The overall message is that, if
something needs doing, and you see it needs doing, you doing it is the
way to see it gets done fastest, and that if you recognize the need,
then its getting done is something that benefits you, among others.

There's an important difference, though.  There are no rangers in this
park.  No one's employed by the park to get something done.  Maybe
someone's employed by one of the office buildings next to the park
because they want nice scenery.  But the park itself has no employees.
 So if no one does something, it simply doesn't get done.

Perhaps a better analogy is a remote sparse community in mountain or
wilderness areas, where there isn't much in the way of government
oversight and public works.  If you need a bridge over a chasm, you
build it or there's no bridge.  If livestock need a well, you dig it
or there's no water.  Anyone who stands around waiting for something
to get done is likely to get (a) very hungry, (b) laughed at or (c)
shot by someone who's struggling to do it for himself.

This community is probably somewhere between the two.

Re: [Draft] The Public Service Mission of OpenOffice

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> In any case, the parent post is about mission and goals, not
> collecting bug reports.  I assume you have objections to accessibility
> as a project goal.

Maybe stressing flexibility and extensibility rather than
accessibility, in terms of AOO being sufficiently flexible and
extensible that accessibility options can be attached to it?  More
importantly, flexible and extensible in the way that
That-which-should-not-be-named isn't?

Re: Crazy idea: Use Google to translate website

[Donald Whytock]

You don't have to use Google Translate for the entire site into a
given language.  Better than no page at all in a given language is a
page in a given language that says, "Hi there!  This is the site for
Apache OpenOffice.  We welcome translations of our site into your
language, and invite you to volunteer at the following email address:
 Or you can submit a translation through Google Translate, which
was used to produce this page."

Something as short as that is less likely to be garbled in
auto-translation than something technical, and it tells potential
contributors what to do to help out.

Don

Re: Word cloud for ooo-dev post subjects

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> http://people.apache.org/~robweir/ooo-dev-cloud.png
>
> This looks at the top 1000 terms used in ooo-dev post subjects since
> this project moved to Apache in June 2011.  The only thing I removed
> was "Re:", since that would have dominated the cloud and is machine,
> not user written
>
> In this particular cloud, I used all posts, including responses.  So
> if a term was used in a thread that had many responses, it would have
> additional weight in this chart.
>
> Technologies used:
>
> Python's mailbox API to extract the post titles.  Could have done this
> with any number of command line text tools as well, but it is trivial
> in Python as well:
>
> import mailbox
>
> box = mailbox.mbox(fileName)
>
> for message in box:
>     print message['Subject']
>
>
> Then I used Wordle.net to generate the graphic.
>
> Based on the reaction given to the previous word cloud, I know that
> some list subscribers are curious to see how often we write about
> LibreOffice.  So I'll help you find it in this graphic.  Look for the
> big "AOO", then under that see the "COMMIT".  Under COMMIT you can
> make out LIBREOFFICE, to the left of USERS.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Rob

Somehow not as stylish in this font.

"Bug" is visible in this one.  No one tweets about bugs?

Don

Re: Twitter Word Cloud for OpenOffice

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> I took all the tweets from June that mentioned 'OpenOffice' and then
> removed the word 'OpenOffice' as well as the string 'RT/.  (If they
> were left in they would dominate over the other terms).  I then
> created a 'world cloud' using the Wordle applet:
> http://www.wordle.net/
>
> Here's what I got:   http://people.apache.org/~robweir/twitter-cloud.png
>
> This gives a sense of what words are most closely associated with
> OpenOffice in recent Twitter conversations.
>
> What does it mean?  I dunno.  You tell me.
>
> -Rob

Might make an interesting desktop background...

Don

Re: [DISCUSS] Participate in another GSoC like programme

[Donald Whytock]

Just a caveat...There was an issue with the now-attic-ed project
Bluesky, which, as I understand it, was operated with teacher
committers and student contributors.  The whole IP/licensing issue
looked ugly toward the end because none of the students had signed
ICLAs and hadn't contributed the code directly with license
acknowledgement checkboxes selected.

GSoC is a volunteer thing.  Schoolwork typically isn't.  A school
isn't an employer of students, and therefore I assume can't do a CCLA
that would cover students.  Can students be compelled through
schoolwork assignments to do work that would then be treated as
"contributions"?  Or would this be like an internship or a dedicated
class, such that signing up for it at all is contingent on signing an
ICLA?

Don

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Ross Gardler
 wrote:
> My apologies, I sent this to the wrong list (damned autocomplete)
> please ignore (or pick it up on d...@community.apache.org if you are
> interested)
>
> On 25 June 2012 13:15, Ross Gardler  wrote:
>> Some may recall that I kept promising the arrival of students from an
>> EU Commission project on a GSoC style pilot in formal education. This
>> was a very long way from successful but there was zero impact on our
>> projects since we asked PMCs to mark GSoC level projects as "mentor".
>> This enabled us to provide a list of suitable projects for the
>> students without PMCs needing to do additional work.
>>
>> I've now been approached by another EU Commission project proposal
>> team that wants to do something similar, but this time with students
>> doing the work as part of their assessed coursework (i.e. they have a
>> strong motivation for doing the work). Another, big difference this
>> time is that one of the partner organisations has ASF committers (2
>> of) and there are three open source savvy commercial organisations on
>> the bid (DISCLOSURE: one of them is my little consultancy company).
>>
>> Given the way these proposals get written, there is a very tight
>> deadline on this (2 days). I got a first draft of the proposal this
>> weekend and I am now satisfied that what is being asked of associate
>> partners is acceptable (i.e we won't be responsible for students
>> education). However, there isn't enough time for a proper discuss then
>> vote process. I'm therefore running these in parallel.
>>
>> If anyone has *any* serious concerns about rushing like this please
>> vote -1 and I'll go back to plan B which is simply to highlight my
>> engagement with the ASF as an individual. Note that I will not be
>> voting given the obvious conflict of interest. However, if the funding
>> is approved I will be taking full responsibility for all aspects of
>> administration within the ASF (and other associate partners). Note I
>> have also notified board@ and will cancel the vote if the board raises
>> a concern.
>>
>> In terms of deliverables from the project think of GSoC where the
>> students get credits towards their degree rather than cash (Semester
>> of Code rather than Summer of Code). If successful the project will
>> provide a "manual" for other universities wishing to offer such real
>> world experience to their students.
>>
>> Our PMCs will choose to offer mentors based on the quality of student
>> applications - if there are no students that look interesting we have
>> no further commitments.
>>
>> Here is the text of the letter of intent I propose to sign if the
>> ComDev PMC approves:
>>
>>  start copied text ---
>>
>> The Apache Software Foundation (ASF) provides support for the Apache
>> community of open-source software projects. That community provide
>> software products for the public good. The ASF is made up of over 100
>> top level projects that cover a wide range of technologies. Chances
>> are that if anyone is looking for a rewarding experience in Open
>> Source, you are going to find it here.
>>
>> The Apache projects are defined by collaborative consensus based
>> processes, an open, pragmatic software license and a desire to create
>> high quality software that leads the way in its field. We are
>> recognized as one of the most influential software organisations of
>> our time and are often seen as the "gold standard" of open source
>> software development.
>>
>> We have participated in the Google Summer of Code programme since its
>> inception and continue to mentor around 40 students per year. We have
>> had great success with this programme with some of our earliest
>> students still working with us.
>>
>> The OSKA project has the potential to extend the benefits of the
>> Google Summer of Code programme into formal education whilst still
>> allowing our communities to work alongside students in real world open
>> source projects. As a voluntary organisation we cannot guarantee that
>> students will succeed, but we can provide an environment in which  any
>> sufficiently able
>> student will find our projects supportive and educational. We look
>> forward to e

Re: Distribution of post times for ooo-dev

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> I was curious, so I extracted the post times for all ooo-dev posts in
> 2012 (over 10,000 of them), normalized the times to UTC, adjusting for
> time zone (python script), and made a histogram in R.
>
> The glorious results are here:
>
> http://people.apache.org/~robweir/ooo-dev-hist.gif
>
> I don't have any conclusions or interpretations.  I suppose the point
> is I now have figured out how to mine data from the mailing lists, so
> if we see any value for other kinds of reports, let me know.

So the bulk of posts are during the North American business day?

Apache OpenOffice.  Contributing to American productivity by giving
people something to email about.

Don

Re: [Proposal] Guidelines for list conduct policy

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 11:33 AM, sebb  wrote:
> I think the phrase may give the wrong impression. I assumed it was
> akin to "don't broadcast what happens on a stag night" but having done
> an internet search I see it's perhaps not quite the same.
>
> Nevertheless, I suggest a change to something less culturally biased
> and with less likelihood of misinterpretation.

How about "What happens behind closed doors stays behind closed
doors"?  Again, not precisely the same as the Vegas reference, but
maybe more applicable to this text?

Don

Re: [Draft] How to Help Translate Apache OpenOffice

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> 4) The translation work is separate from almost any other topic on
> ooo-dev.  Testers need to know about ongoing dev work.  Ditto for
> porters, UX, documentation, etc.  But translation is more of an
> isolated activity.

If the i18n@ list is created, you might want to include a suggestion
for them to be on announce@ too, as part of the instructions.  They
should be aware of new releases, which may include new functionality,
which may involve new translation needs.

Don

Re: [Draft] How to Help Translate Apache OpenOffice

[Donald Whytock]

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> 2) You can suggest translations on our Pootle server:
> https://translate.apache.org/projects/OOo_34/   Logins to Pootle are
> reserved for project "Committers" (those volunteers who have
> demonstrated sustained contributions to the project and have been
> voted in as committers).  So initially you will need to work with
> Pootle via suggestions.  But translators who have made substantial
> contributions via their efforts are regularly give Committer rights.

Should there be an ICLA reference/link?

Don

Re: Bring back the distributors page!

[Donald Whytock]

Not a committer here, but I've been following the list, and have seen
much kvetching about pages containing outdated, inoperable and/or
fraudulent links to outside sites, and how much trouble it is to go
through them and clean out the trash.

It may be helpful to people who want to buy support services for OO,
but it's also a burden to the people who maintain the site, and little
to no burden at all to a service vendor who places a link on the site
and then goes out of business.

Starting with a clean page at this point would simply mean the problem
will come up again later.

I know this is introducing work, but I'd like to make a suggestion: a
distributor sign-up form that accepts a name, a link, an email address
and a text blurb.  Sign-ups get stored in a database and await review.
 The distributor page is either generated dynamically each time or is
re-generated every night, from the database entries that have been
reviewed and approved.

Sign-ups should have timestamps, and should only last for X amount of
time.  At X minus some reasonable Y, an email is sent to the address
in the sign-up advising them to renew.

This reduces the burden on ASF volunteers, doesn't unduly burden
distributors, and ensures users/buyers have timely information.

Though I still think this might be better in a user forum.

Don

Re: Bring back the distributors page!

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 3:00 PM, John Schmidt  wrote:
> I thought this was a great idea and have always had my software up to date
> and delivered on time. I can't say anything for anyone else, but my site
> looks professional and I also supply the buyer with choices of support
> packages. I for one would like this to stay open. I have not received a sale
> since the switch to Apache Openoffice. So if you can please bring the
> distributors page back.

Perhaps a user forum thread for service suppliers would be better than
a webpage.  A webpage has to be maintained and can have links that are
out of date, whereas a forum thread is more dynamic and would seem
more up-to-date.

Don

Re: LinuxTag 2012 Berlin

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> As for the LO split, you could ask a dozen people "why?" and get a
> dozen different answers.  You could ask Keith Curtis "why?" and get 50
> answers ;-)  But the question and the answer is not really important.
> The only real question worth asking is "What do you want to do today?"

How about "What's LibreOffice?"

Re: LibreOffice relicensing efforts

[Donald Whytock]

Um, guys?  As this concerns a LibreOffice webpage over which the AOO
committers largely have no control, is it better to have this argument
here or on a LibreOffice-related list?

Don

Re: Apache license (invariant section)

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Guy Waterval  wrote:
> On the "Contributors" page of a document, I would like to include people
> who contributed, with their name, email, website and a short advertising
> message describing their activities. I want to protect and enforce this
> page that it is reproduced in all derived versions of the original
> document. Is this possible and if so, how the text of the Apache 2.0
> license should it be formulated?

Email?  Is that a good idea?

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:38 AM, drew  wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:29 -0400, Donald Whytock wrote:
>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew  wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
>> >> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
>> >> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
>> >> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
>> >> > project focus.
>> >> >
>> >> > I invite others pick that up here:
>> >>
>> >> What we do currently:
>> >>
>> >> 1) One big ooo-dev list
>> >>
>> >> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
>> >> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
>> >>
>> >> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
>> >> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
>> >> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
>> >>
>> >> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
>> >> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
>> >> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
>> >> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
>> >> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
>> >> mailing lists, etc.
>> >
>> > hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
>> > already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
>> > say no, not yet.
>> >
>> > I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
>> > way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
>> > thinks.
>> >
>> > For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
>> > with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
>> > the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
>> > quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
>> > without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
>> > understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
>> > that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
>> > build itself.
>>
>> Has any thought been given to reaching out to language-teaching
>> communities at colleges for translation assistance?  This would do
>> dual duty of getting help with translation of top-level site
>> information and spreading the word about AOO.  There may be teachers
>> who would consider translation of NL pages extra-credit work for
>> students.
>
> Sounds like a great idea, if, the reason for this project is simply to
> scratch an itch - in other words if the goal here is to build the
> software and then not really concern ourselves with who uses it, because
> that is outside of the scope of this project and left to others to do
> (and a valid position, perhaps) then I'd say sure, that sounds like one
> good avenue to work on. In that scenario of the reason for the project
> we don't care really about building local teams, only in the work
> product.
>
> //drew

I was thinking of a bootstrap.  At the moment, if all the policies and
procedures and process descriptions are in English, then all your NL
communities must start with a person who's capable in both English and
the target language.  If, on the other hand, you mass-produce
translations of those policies and procedures and process descriptions
into multiple languages and put them on NL root pages, you've widened
your community-founding pool.

Yes, scratching an itch.  And prying open a door.

Don

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew  wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
>>  wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
>> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
>> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
>> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
>> > project focus.
>> >
>> > I invite others pick that up here:
>>
>> What we do currently:
>>
>> 1) One big ooo-dev list
>>
>> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
>> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
>>
>> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
>> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
>> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
>>
>> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
>> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
>> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
>> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
>> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
>> mailing lists, etc.
>
> hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
> already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
> say no, not yet.
>
> I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
> way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
> thinks.
>
> For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
> with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
> the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
> quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
> without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
> understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
> that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
> build itself.

Has any thought been given to reaching out to language-teaching
communities at colleges for translation assistance?  This would do
dual duty of getting help with translation of top-level site
information and spreading the word about AOO.  There may be teachers
who would consider translation of NL pages extra-credit work for
students.

Don

Re: Open Office

[Donald Whytock]

This mailing list typically deletes attachments.  You may wish to
include the text of the request in the email, and/or include a link to
an external copy of the PDF.

Don

On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Janet Wallace
 wrote:
> I am emailing to request your permission to package and re-distribute Open
> Office to a number of educational establishments within Edinburgh. The
> attached PDF details our request.
>
> Regards
> Janet Wallace
>
> Janet Wallace | ICT Development Officer | Digital Teaching & Learning
> City of Edinburgh Council | Westwood House | 498 Gorgie Road | Edinburgh |
> EH11 3AF
> (Direct Line) 0131 469 2943 | (Switchboard) 0131 469 2930 | Fax 0131 469
> 2941
> email: janet.wall...@ea.edin.sch.uk
>

Re: Please help.

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Brian N  wrote:
> BTW . HP sent me to you.

At least the project has recognition...

Re: LGPL vs Apache 2.0 FAQ?

[Donald Whytock]

Wikipedia has a list...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_software_licenses

Last modified 21 Feb 2012.  Not sure if it's street-legal, but it's a
starting point.

Don

Re: Instructions about how to retain access to the OpenOffice Templates website, now hosted at SourceForge

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 3:43 AM, Jürgen Schmidt
 wrote:
> And the fact
> that nobody else has raised any concerns shows that it is probably my
> personal opinion only.

I thought it was fine as-was -- honest and casual, which I think fits
OSS -- but if you had wanted to spin it you could have gone
pro-active, something along the lines of "As part of the move, we will
be finding new hosting for files and services formerly hosted by
Oracle, such as Templates".  That way it's something you're doing
instead of something you're losing.

But that's just a too-late nitpick.  Seriously, I thought it was fine.

Don

Re: why i uninstalled OpenOffice and went back to MS Office2003

[Donald Whytock]

Try MS Office 2010.  Takes 5+ seconds for me.

That means OOo is less too-slow than MSO has evolved to.

Perhaps AOO should try to catch up?

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 4:55 AM, Martin Tõnumaa  wrote:
> Hi
> here´s my feedback to OpenOffice software that was available in March 2012
> on openoffice.org
> You software is too slow. I have an XLS spreadsheet that i want to edit.
> With Openoffice, it loads 3-4 seconds, with MS Office 2003 it takes 0,5 sec.
>
> Martin

Re: [ooo-site]

[Donald Whytock]

Attachments don't usually work on these mailing lists.  Perhaps you
can copy and paste the link?

Don

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:32 PM, alex  wrote:
> Link for downloading the latest version Mac PPC is not valid. Have a look to
> the attached screenshot.
> Thanks!
> Alex
>
>
>
>

openoffice.fm

[Donald Whytock]

There's a site offering, supposedly, a version of OpenOffice called
OpenOffice.fm:

http://download.openoffice.fm/free/

No mention of Oracle or Apache in the licensing, though it does have a
news blurb about OpenOffice joining Apache.

FAQ and forum links point to openoffice.org. Links to the source for
versions 3.3 and 3.2.1 point to openmirror.org; www.openmirror.org
gives a webserver default page.

Some of the fine print says the installer will present opt-ins for
other software.  I guess that's their business model.

Haven't tried to download the source or binary.

Don

Re: Is any one here familiar with OpenOffice?

[Donald Whytock]

Having seen some of the other comments here, let me rephrase my position...

Current interest in OOo is by way of my employer using it as a
document-to-PDF-converter server.  For this to work as a long-term
solution, OOo (and now in its home as AOO) needs to stay current with
the industry, both on the document end and on the Adobe-compatibility
end.  Anything that helps that along is a Good Thing.

I've been a programmer for many years, but C++ isnt a strong point on my resume.

So.  Technically oriented user with vested interest in seeing AOO make
steady progress, have regular updates and be responsive to user needs.

Don

Re: Is any one here familiar with OpenOffice?

[Donald Whytock]

"yes, and": +1

(BTW, very little personal experience with actually using OOo; my
various employers have used and supplied MSO.  But strongly in favor
of bucking monopolies.)

Re: AOO timeline of accomplishments

[Donald Whytock]

Did you want to do a low-bandwidth version also?  That graphic didn't
make it through my company's firewall.  Though I could view it on my
phone.

Don

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> I am working on a blog post that will feature a timeline showing what
>> we have accomplished since the project has started.  Obviously a
>> timeline is based on dates and events.  The ones have so far are here.
>>
>
> Here is what I have so far:
>
> http://www.robweir.com/AOO.png
>
> As you can see, I'm classifying the milestones in three buckets.
> These, of course, are debatable. There is a lot of cross-over effects.
>  The enablement of a new server by Infrastructure has implications for
> the community, as well as for development, and development is part of,
> not different than the community, etc.  I get that.  But I think this
> is an effective way to show what we've done in terms of server
> migration, code work, and growing the community. A little color
> doesn't hurt either.  The distinctions are artificial, but when you
> think of it, even our quarterly Board reports use similar categories.
>
> In any case, I'd love more events and dates.  For example, our 3.4
> release notes are full of enhancements.  I'd love to list some more,
> which I would, if I had dates.
>
> -Rob
>
>> Any errors that pop out?
>>
>> Any additional accomplishments I should highlight in the timeline?
>>
>> Some times I am missing dates for include:
>>
>> date Japanese list started
>> date Italian list started
>>
>> (has German list started?)
>>
>> dates for milestones with the freeBSD and OS/2 ports
>>
>> Probably missing some buildbots
>>
>> Missing date for "copyleft" free milestone?
>>
>> Any others?
>>
>> It looks really cool seeing this plotted graphically.   We've
>> accomplished quite a lot.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>
>> Enter Incubation        Jun 13 2011
>> Confluence Wiki Jun 19 2011
>> Bugzilla migrated       Aug 03 2011
>> Source code checked in  Aug 29 2011
>> Blog created    Sep 09 2011
>> Download archives secured       Oct 24 2011
>> Marketing list created  Oct 26 2011
>> Community Forums migrated       Oct 30 2011
>> Wiki migrated   Oct 30 2011
>> Linux 64-bit Buildbot   Nov 25 2011
>> Pootle  Dec 11 2011
>> Website moved to Apache Dec 26 2011
>> First dev snapshot build        Jan 16 2012
>> All initial committers processed        Jan 18 2012
>> Windows Buildbot        Feb 08 2012
>> Extensions site migrated        Feb 26 2012

Re: AOO timeline of accomplishments

[Donald Whytock]

Will this be sent out after the 15 March shutdown?  Is that something
to include somehow?

Don

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Roberto Galoppini  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> I am working on a blog post that will feature a timeline showing what
>> we have accomplished since the project has started.  Obviously a
>> timeline is based on dates and events.  The ones have so far are here.
>>
>> Any errors that pop out?
>>
>> Any additional accomplishments I should highlight in the timeline?
>>
>> Some times I am missing dates for include:
>>
>> date Japanese list started
>> date Italian list started
>>
>> (has German list started?)
>>
>> dates for milestones with the freeBSD and OS/2 ports
>>
>> Probably missing some buildbots
>>
>> Missing date for "copyleft" free milestone?
>>
>> Any others?
>>
>> It looks really cool seeing this plotted graphically.   We've
>> accomplished quite a lot.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>
>> Enter Incubation        Jun 13 2011
>> Confluence Wiki Jun 19 2011
>> Bugzilla migrated       Aug 03 2011
>> Source code checked in  Aug 29 2011
>> Blog created    Sep 09 2011
>> Download archives secured       Oct 24 2011
>> Marketing list created  Oct 26 2011
>> Community Forums migrated       Oct 30 2011
>> Wiki migrated   Oct 30 2011
>> Linux 64-bit Buildbot   Nov 25 2011
>> Pootle  Dec 11 2011
>> Website moved to Apache Dec 26 2011
>> First dev snapshot build        Jan 16 2012
>> All initial committers processed        Jan 18 2012
>> Windows Buildbot        Feb 08 2012
>> Extensions site migrated        Feb 26 2012
>
>   Templates site migrated        Mar 4 2012
>
> Roberto
> 
> This e- mail message is intended only for the named recipient(s) above. It 
> may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the 
> intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, 
> distribution or copying of this e-mail and any attachment(s) is strictly 
> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately 
> notify the sender by replying to this e-mail and delete the message and any 
> attachment(s) from your system. Thank you.
>

Re: [DRAFT]: Request for an early review of an potential Apache OpenOffice release

[Donald Whytock]

Grammar-weenie-ing:

"We did a lot of IP clearance work to become Apache conform"

That sentence structure suggests "compliant" instead of "conform", as
in "to become Apache-compliant".  Alternately, you can say "IP
clearance work to conform to Apache standards" or "to conform to the
Apache Way".

---

"We are preparing developer snapshots since several weeks"

I'd suggest "We have prepared developer snapshots over the past several weeks".

---

"because of the complexity of the project we would be very much appreciate"

Remove "be".

---

"We know that we have no RC candidate right now"

RC = release candidate?  If so, replace "RC" with "release" here.  The
second "RC" is probably okay.

Otherwise, good content and tone.

Don

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Hans Zybura  wrote:
> I don't know much about the incubator folks and the whole process. So I
> can't really judge the timing of this. But I for my part wouldn't want to be
> left without dictionaries, but with a spellchecker gone wild instead, just
> because I did not really understand what the note of warning meant in plain
> English. The amount of work already done will be more impressive, if the
> known issues are better explained, especially the most obvious ones.
>
> Alternative wording suggestion:
>
> NOTE: Be careful with the binary packages and save your office user
> profiles before testing. Existing OOo 3.x installations will be overwritten.
> We provide full install sets to test system integration and upgrades.
> Known issues: Currently we are not able to migrate installed
> extensions. There will be no dictionaries, therefore the spellchecker will
> go wild. (We are
> working on this, of course.) Please rename your user profile before testing
> our
> snapshot build, and re-rename your user profile after reinstalling a stable
> OOo version.
> We recommend using a virtual machine for testing, not your production
> environment.
>
> BTW: This would be a better wording for the note of warning on the download
> site for dev snapshots as well, I think.
>
> Hans
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 6:13 PM
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [DRAFT]: Request for an early review of an potential Apache
>> OpenOffice release
>>
>> Jürgen --
>>
>> I don't know what the requirements are or will be, but I think this is a
> good
>> invitation to the "incubator" folks. Nice!
>>
>>
>> 2012/3/6 Jürgen Schmidt 
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I would like to send  out the following email to the general incubator
>> > mailing list to ask for early feedback related the general Apache
>> > requirements. The main intention is to address potential issues asap
>> > and to save time later on.
>> >
>> > Any opinions or improvements?
>> >
>> > Juergen
>> >
>> >
>> > ###
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > the Apache OpenOffice podling project is moving forward to a first
>> > release that is long expected by the OpenOffice.org community and users.
>> >
>> > You know that Apache OpenOffice is the continuation of OpenOffice.org
>> > and that the project is very huge, has a very long history and a very
>> > huge user base all over the world.
>> >
>> > We did a lot of IP clearance work to become Apache conform and we
>> > would like to get some early feedback if we are in shape with the
>> > Apache guidelines for a potential release.
>> >
>> > We are preparing developer snapshots since several weeks for our
>> > project members to test and review. This developer snapshots can be
>> > found under
>> >
>> > Source package
>> > http://people.apache.org/~jsc/**developer-snapshots/src_**
>> > releases/srcrelease.html> > pshots/src_releases/srcrelease.html>
>> >
>> > Binary package
>> > https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**
>> >
>> AOO+3.4+Unofficial+Developer+**Snapshots> f
>> >
>> AOO+luence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+3.4+Unofficial+Developer+Snapshot
>> s>
>> >
>> > The mac version is also signed and the check files can be found in the
>> > download directory directly http://people.apache.org/~jsc/**
>> > developer-
>> snapshots/macos/**r1296433/> > developer-snapshots/macos/r1296433/>
>> >
>> > NOTE: be careful with the binary packages and save your office user
>> > profiles. We provide full install sets to test system integration and
>> > upgrades. And we are currently not able to migrate installed
>> > extensions because of the removal of the Berkeley DB. But we are
>> > working on this. You can easy rename your user profile can test our
>> > snapshot build and can rename your user directory afterwards.
>> >
>> > Right now we are focusing on show stopper issues but nevertheless we
>> > would like to invite you to review the source packages and also the
>> > binary packages if they fulfill the Apache requirements (e.g license,
>> > NOTICE, ...)
>> >
>> > We know that we have no

Re: Someone is selling OpenOffice on Ebay....

[Donald Whytock]

>From GPLv3, section 4, concerning verbatim copies:

"You may charge any price or no price for each copy that you convey,
and you may offer support or warranty protection for a fee."[1]

[1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html#section4



On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:31 AM, cklsynt  wrote:
>> I just thought I should bring this to your attention.
>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Office-Suite-Microsoft-Word-Powerpoint-Access-Excel-Compatible-Free-Post-/140624633605?pt=AU_software&hash=item20bde19f05
>>
>
> This one is not using the OOo logo, just showing a screen shot and
> nominative use (IMHO) of "Open Office".  Some odd claims, like saying
> Draw is "comparable to Microsoft Visio".
>
> At the end of their description they say:
>
> "eBay Staff: We are an authorized community distributor of this
> software. We are authorized to distribute this software by the
> Intellectual Property Owner. This software is licensed under the GNU
> General Public License and Lesser General Public License (GPL & LGPL).
> No copyrights have been violated and our listing is in compliance with
> eBay rules and policies."
>
> Not sure what "authorized community distributor" means.  But they
> could certainly argue that the license provides sufficient
> authorization.
>
> In any case, I don't see a problem here.  But since this issue comes
> up with some regularity, I'll write up an FAQ that we can refer users
> to,
>
>
> -Rob
>
>> I reported the item already, hope you can put this guy in his place.
>> Leeching off the devs/contributes.
>>
>> -Chris

Re: selling open office

[Donald Whytock]

Not a lawyer either, but I suspect that as long as the logo only
represents something that actually is a verbatim copy of an Apache
product it could be passed off as "attribution".  The problem comes
when it's used to identify something that isn't Apache, such as the
price on the CD, the site the CD is offered on, 's
fundraising efforts, etc.

There was talk of a "Powered by AOO" logo.  Maybe this should be
propogated up to the foundation to have an "Apache Inside" logo?

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Phillip Rhodes
>  wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 12:23 PM, flamin hotdog
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> hi, i was wondering where you stand on people selling open office. i know 
>>> of somebody who is selling open office on ebay for profit.
>>> thanks andy
>>>
>>
>> Generally speaking, it's fine to take the code, compile it into a
>> binary, and sell it... with or without source code, and under
>> any terms compatible with the Apache License.  The bigger question, to
>> me, is what they *call* the thing they sell.  The code
>> is freely available, but the trademarks and what-not around the name
>> "OpenOffice.org" and "Apache", etc. are a different
>> issue.  Somebody selling binaries called "Apache OpenOffice" would, I
>> think, need explicit permission to use that name (somebody
>> correct me if I'm wrong).  But selling it as "Bob's Kickass Office
>> Suite" should be fine.
>>
>
> That's where it gets interesting.  Generally no permission is needed
> for so-called "nominative use" of a trademark.  This permits minimal
> use of the trademark where necessary for accurate identification.
>
> See:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_use
>
> So if someone has downloaded OpenOffice and put OpenOffice on a CD,
> then there should not be a problem with them labeling the CD as
> "OpenOffice". Anything else would be less accurate and less useful to
> the consumer.
>
> However, putting the OpenOffice logo on the CD?  Using the OpenOffice
> logo in your webpage used to sell the CD's?  Calling your company
> "OpenOffice Direct"?  These go beyond the minimum needed to identify
> what is on the CD.  If someone is doing that, without permission from
> Apache, then this could be a problem.
>
> Note:  IANAL, but that is my understanding of how trademarks are
> treated in the US.  It may be different in other countries.
>
> -Rob
>
>>
>> Phillip Rhodes

Re: selling open office

[Donald Whytock]

Since this has to do with the Apache license, is there an applicable
overall Apache FAQ?

Don

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Ross Gardler
 wrote:
> This looks like a FAQ question to me... I was going to add it myself,
> but found it is already there, See
> http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/mostfaqs.html#3
>
> Note, that FAQ needs some attention. It talks of Sun owning the code and LGPL.
>
> Ross
>
> On 28 February 2012 23:40, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 12:23 PM, flamin hotdog
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> hi, i was wondering where you stand on people selling open office. i know 
>>> of somebody who is selling open office on ebay for profit.
>>> thanks andy
>>
>> A similar question came up on the list last week. My response is here:
>>
>> http://markmail.org/message/g6viii4ito6hhwim
>>
>> In summary, the open source license permits selling CD's containing
>> exact copies of OpenOffice.
>>
>> Remember, open source is all about the freedoms it gives to users and
>> to programmers. Everyone has the freedom to download OpenOffice from
>> our website at no cost.  But you also have the freedom to take the
>> source code and enhance it and sell your enhancements.  You have the
>> freedom to sell copies of OpenOffice in conjunction with support
>> contracts or migration services.  You even have the freedom to sell on
>> eBay.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
> Programme Leader (Open Development)
> OpenDirective http://opendirective.com

Re: Proposal to close the Vietnamese Language User Forum

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts
 wrote:
>
> But as the new world is a gooder
> world, and in this nascent place there is no end of future, Why not?

Okay.  I'm putting that up on my wall.

Don

Re: Updates: IBM Lotus Symphony, Apache OpenOffice, IBM Docs and other fun stuff

[Donald Whytock]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Jürgen Schmidt
 wrote:
> On 1/25/12 9:35 PM, Graham Lauder wrote:
>>
>> Everyone participates in an Open Source project for various reasons, some
>> may
>> be their own and some may be employers and all do it for some form of
>> reward
>> whether it be cash or something more esoteric.  There are a lot of people
>> who
>> do this as part of their 9 to 5 who are not what I would call volunteers.
>
>
> should we now feel offended? Probably not because it's hopefully only the
> personal view of a single person. I think many of the full-time employed
> community members are here with passion and spent a lot of more time in the
> project than necessary by their contracts.

I think following one's passion is an example of a "more esoteric"
reward.  He's just saying that everyone that does anything here is
doing it because they get something out of it.  And sometimes what
they get out of it isn't love.

Don

Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner

[Donald Whytock]

Including the list this time.  Watch those reply-tos, Dennis...:)

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
 wrote:
> Don,
>
> What's your understanding of the connection between open-source encryption 
> algorithms and SOPA/PIPA?  Where is there more information available?


This was the EFF article I saw on the topic:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/11/hollywood-new-war-on-software-freedom-and-internet-innovation

It's a little alarmist, but the general tone is that if some idiot can
think there's any relationship between software that hides information
and efforts to circumvent DNS censorship, the site that provides said
software can find itself blocked.

Feel free to substitute "government official" for "idiot" as needed.
Seriously, how many politicians do you know that really know what
security software does?  They don't have to be right.  They just have
to have the authority.

Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner

[Donald Whytock]

This showed up on Yahoo today...

http://news.yahoo.com/wikipedia-editors-sites-blackout-120914984.html

Apparently some feel that Wikipedia shouldn't take any political
stands at all...that it sets a bad precedent and potentially damages
its reputation.  Me, I think Wikipedia isn't taking a political stand
as much as a personal one, since the legislation affects Wikipedia
directly.  But perceptions are subjective.

I think Apache in general, and perhaps AOO in particular, could also
take a personal stand.  After all, if I'm reading the EFF analysis
correctly, one good open-source encryption implementation could get
Apache shut down.  Weren't y'all discussing encryption standards and
implementations here a few months ago?

Don

Re: Sopa

[Donald Whytock]

As much as it would make a helluva statement, there's people out there
who might really need to get the latest security patch of some Apache
product right now.

Acting responsibly is part of the burden of being the good guys.  It's
why the bad guys sometimes win.

Don

Re: May I use "OpenOffice.org" and "Apache Incubator" logos on OpenOffice.org CD

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
> No objections at all, but I would generalize the question and turn it into a
> FAQ: surely we can't expect to have to approve logo requests for every CD
> distribution initiative, so we should probably reach the consensus (and
> consult Shane) on generically allowing the OpenOffice.org logo, and the logo
> that will eventually replace it, on CDs containing the unmodified software
> as released by Apache (a more proper wording can probably be found, but you
> get the concept).
>
> The old policy, if I recall correctly, was to allow this kind of usage and a
> generic usage for "community activities".

Would you want people to notify the list if/when it happens?

Re: Holiday Greetings...

[Donald Whytock]

May I offer Agnostica, from the webcomic Nukees?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostica#Agnostica

http://www.nukees.com

I personally like the festive Moebius chains.

Don

Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons

[Donald Whytock]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
 wrote:
> That is no help for simply wanting to see what the icons look like.
>
> I see a file with an incredible number of icons in it and I don't want to 
> have to decode a patch to figure out what is happening.  I just want to know 
> what the intended result is.
>
> What is an easy way for us all to be on the same page with regard to the 
> result without being plugged into the code base?
>
> Please.
>
>  - Dennis

I threw together the attached file, that at least shows all the icons
and their filenames and paths, if you untar the image tar and stick
the file in the images directory.  Someone could throw this up on a
site somewhere.  The path includes things like "old/default_images/"
and "cur/default_images/", so you at least know what you're looking
at.

My version of IE doesn't show .icns files.

Don

Re: Team OpenOffice White Label Office (powered by Apache Open Office)

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:31 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
 wrote:
>
>  2. I then wondered if "white label" had some other, independent 
> significance.  Indeed it does: 
> .  And here too: 
> .  Oddly, the English phrase is 
> apparently used in German as well.  I don't think the association with 
> bootleg music is intended though.  I will have to install the German-language 
> version of the release just to see how the identifier is used within the TOOo 
> release.

Actually, by that definition, everything under the ASF is "white
label", as it's explicitly legal to rebrand it.  That makes "White
Label Office" genuinely ironic.

Don

Re: (Draft) Email forwarding public announcement

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> Note this is draft. But I'd like to see if I'm heading in the right direction.

Looks good.  Very clear; pretty much handles "...But nobody TOLD me!"

Grammarweenie:

- "have been able to migrate" -> "has been able to migrate"

Reminder:

- "[Specific instructions for ezmlm lists]" not yet linked.

Suggestion:

- Include a link to the current homepage.

Don

Re: Help wanted for a better "Help Wanted"

[Donald Whytock]

OpenHatch looks good.  In fact, I'm surprised there aren't other
Apache projects in there already.

MediaWiki is listed there, and is explicitly asking for translators.
Seems like a good example for OOo to follow.

Don

Re: Business models that will not work [was: Re: Can we update our migration status table?]

[Donald Whytock]

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
> Perhaps there are other good business models?

The last stick version of Ubuntu I grabbed included LO already installed.

So...bundle feature?

Don

Re: Blog Draft: OpenOffice.org Migration -- The Community Forums

[Donald Whytock]

Nice effort put into this.  Some grammar-weenie-ings and thoughts...

-- "including of ones own posts" should be "including of one's own posts".

-- "Forum operation  More-experienced" should be "Forum operation.
More-experienced".

-- "The Forums embrace all of the descendants of the original
StarOffice/OpenOffice.org that have become siblings in the
OpenOffice.org galaxy.  Tips and solutions in the use of one release
are often useful to users of a product cousin having the same
feature."  Given descendants and siblings, what is a "cousin"?  Is
this a term of art[1]?  Does it refer to a branch within OOo, or a
branch outside of OOo such as LO?

-- "The OpenOffice.org Community Forums are one way that the Web
connects users of OpenOffice.org-related products.  There are
additional communities across the Internet with similar concerns as
well as different specialties.  These can employ mailing lists,
Internet news groups, and other web-based forums.  The Web and search
engines bring the different resources of these communities into the
reach of each other and users everywhere.   The OpenOffice.org
Community Forums are now continuing as a substantial resource of that
extended community." Not sure this paragraph is as useful as a
statement that URLs have been preserved to keep existing search-engine
repositories useful, which the next two paragraphs come close to
saying.  On the other hand, it might look good on a "Where to Get
Help" page on the site.

-- Closing paragraph?  Something along the lines of, "See?  Wasn't
that cool?"  Or alternately, "Y'all come!"

Don

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_art

Re: OOo Business...

[Donald Whytock]

I'd suggest the email form, as Louis suggests, especially if said
email has to go to ooo-private, as Rob said. ("Rule one is, we don't
talk about ooo-private...")  It can be at the end of, or linked to
from, a FAQ.  Simple and quick for the user, and can include a subject
tag for easy identification by the list moderators.

Also transparent to users if you later decide to send said requests
to, say, ooo-marketing.

Don

Re: [Request] create ooo-disc...@incubator.apache.org mailing list

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts
 wrote:
>  In OOo-land, discuss list conversations were often initiated (if not
> always) by non-developers expressing wishes, comments, complaints or
> other OT stuff, though that latter was limited. Developers intervened
> and explained and invariably politely explicated what was what.
>
> However, that was the old OOo site. The new Apache one has a stronger
> developer focus. It's not as much a discursive site as the old. So, I
> tend, using that logic, to favour a purely dev@ list focused on
> development.
>
> But there remains the problem—or virtue—of the non-developer
> contributor whose contributions are immensely valuable and include not
> just localizations, but also extensions, templates, etc. etc., that
> make OOo as usable as it is (and would make it even more usable).
> Where these discussions take place is the question.

This sounds more like something for, say, an ooo-feedback, ooo-suggest
or something similar.  Some place where users can make suggestions,
and developers can pull from there to ooo-dev.

Re: [Request] create ooo-disc...@incubator.apache.org mailing list

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:48 PM, eric b  wrote:
> As a compromise, what about to create ooo-disc...@incubator.apache.org  ?

We could certainly move all the name-calling there...

At the moment, though, policy issues, legal issues and the like are
still development issues simply because the precedents haven't yet
been set.  So what would be talked about on ooo-discuss that wouldn't
have an impact here?

Or would that be a place for those discussions that take on a life of
their own, such that someone says, "Okay, let's take this to
ooo-discuss", whereupon it gets hashed out and comes back here with a
[Proposal]?

Don

Re: EXPUNGE MY EMAIL ADDRESS

[Donald Whytock]

To remove your address from the list, send a message to:
  



On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Emanuel Winocur <2alw...@cox.net> wrote:
> Dear Friends, I am overwhelmed with the quantity of emails send to me by
> many members. I not longer can deal with this!~! PLEASE DELETE ME FROM THE
> LIST OF TECHNICAL INFORMATION'S.
> Emanuel M. Winocur
> 2alw...@cox.net
> - Original Message - From: "André Schnabel" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2011 9:53 AM
> Subject: Re: Hunspell dictionaries are not just words lists (+ other
> matters)
>
>
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> Am 07.11.2011 16:51, schrieb Rob Weir:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Andre Schnabel
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The jurisdiction of the creator only matters in the case of local
>>> infringement or in the context of international treaties.  And I don't
>>> believe any treaties have recognized sui generis IP rights for
>>> collections of facts, i.e., databases.  It has been discussed but
>>> there is no agreement.  See the WIPO statement on this:
>>>
>>> http://www.wipo.int/copyright/en/activities/databases.html
>>
>> This is not a statement on IP rights for databases - it is a statement on
>> IP rights for
>> *Non-Original Databases* .
>>
>> We obviously disagree on this part of the text:
>> " The originality requirement that a database must constitute an
>> intellectual creation
>> by reason of the selection or arrangement of its contents in order to
>> enjoy copyright
>> protection means that some databases are not protected ..."
>>
>> So obviously some databases actually are protected. Of course - if you
>> think, that a
>> dictionary is just a mere collection of words you would obviously come to
>> the
>> conclusion that this is no intellectual creation.
>>
>> btw ... if IBM does have dictionaries available, why don't you just
>> publish those, if
>> there is no copyright protection in place? Doing so would end this
>> discussion very
>> quickly andwould be a great contribution to the project.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> André
>
>

Re: request

[Donald Whytock]

2011/11/2 Łukasz Janik :
> Please translate the page http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/, in
> various languages, including Polish, and the official site in apache
> openoffice after incubator

Interesting point.  Do any Apache pages have translations?  Is the
Apache infrastructure equipped to handle them?

Don

Re: [ISSUE] Shut-down of all name@ openoffice.org e-mail addresses

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:
>  2. There is an untested presumption that it is not legal to transfer those
> forwarding accounts because of rules about privacy and European trans-national
> data-sharing regulations.  (I am not an attorney.  And I wonder how the Sun ->
> Oracle transfer managed it and also wonder where the forwarding system and
> data are currently operated that such conditions apply.)

The mailing lists and IDs were probably considered the property of
Sun.  Oracle bought Sun, and hence all its assets.

I'm sure if Oracle were to buy the Apache Foundation there wouldn't be
any legal issues at all...

Don

Re: Working on a project roadmap ...

[Donald Whytock]

2011/10/27 Jürgen Schmidt :
> I wish more people would concentrate on the real work that is in front of
> us.

There was an actual patch submitted, and actual discussion on it,
within the last 24.  I found that encouraging.

Don

Re: Shutdown of the "download.services.openoffice.org" host and its Mirrorbrain instance

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Peter Pöml  wrote:
> The page should list all essential requirements.
>
>> http://mirrorbrain.org/requirements/

Does MirrorBrain allow downloaders to specify the mirror they want to
use?  I didn't see that as a feature.

This is necessary for people operating behind firewalls that block
websites based on type.  For example, my company's firewall doesn't
allow access to many filesharing sites and certain types of
businesses, but does allow access to universities.  This means when I
get an update for an Apache product I often need to manually select a
university mirror.

Don

Re: Draft mailing list notification post

[Donald Whytock]

"is migrate the many legacy" -> "is migrating the many legacy"

"on to Apache servers" -> "onto Apache servers"

Aside from that, it looks good to me, though I wonder if the opening
paragraph sounds a little Nigerian.

Don

Re: Shutdown of the "download.services.openoffice.org" host and its Mirrorbrain instance

[Donald Whytock]

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Simon Phipps  wrote:
>
> On 25 Oct 2011, at 00:23, Donald Whytock wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Marcus (OOo)  wrote:
>>> @List:
>>> Has anybody an idea about where to host this service? It doesn't need to be
>>> necessarily inside the ASF.
>>
>> The Pirate Bay?  Lend them some legitimacy? :)
>>
>> More seriously, on the risk of being off-topic, has torrenting been
>> considered for downloads?
>
> It's been a feature of OOo for years: http://distribution.openoffice.org/p2p/ 
>  and is now also a feature at LibreOffice: http://www.libreoffice.org/download
>
> So I think that's a big "yes" and the question is how we keep it going...

I'd actually meant (and probably should have said) whether it has been
considered by ASF.  Make every mirror a seed and all that.  Or, like
in this case, have people willing to volunteer bits of space on a
short-term basis.

I didn't see anything about P2P at http://apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi.
Does anyone know if ASF has any capability for this?

Re: Shutdown of the "download.services.openoffice.org" host and its Mirrorbrain instance

[Donald Whytock]

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Marcus (OOo)  wrote:
> @List:
> Has anybody an idea about where to host this service? It doesn't need to be
> necessarily inside the ASF.

The Pirate Bay?  Lend them some legitimacy? :)

More seriously, on the risk of being off-topic, has torrenting been
considered for downloads?

Don

Re: Clarification on treatment of "weak copyleft" components

[Donald Whytock]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> There is no intent to hoard.  From talking to developers on this
> project I get the sense that they want to upstream patches more than
> was done previously.  But contributing a patch is no guarantee that it
> will be integrated by the other project in a timely manner.  Simply
> having it checked in by the 3rd party component, but not yet in their
> release, is also not optimal, for stability and supportability
> reasons.  Release schedules don't always sync up.

Much more of a Java developer than a C++ developer, so I don't know
how C++ linking is managed.

In Java you give a list of .jar files for the loader to use, in order
of preference; hence you can "patch" a class in a 3rd party library by
supplying your own version of that class in a library that's examined
before the 3rd party library.

Does C++ have something similar?  Such that you can supply both the
original untouched 3rd party binary library and your own binary
library that only contains the modified code?

Don

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Donald Whytock]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
> confirmation email, to f...@bar.com, in English:

This would seem to be better than simply subscribing everyone
silently...making it effectively an opt-in cross subscription.

Can the generated message be changed?  Customized per the needs of the
particular list?

Don

Re: [DISCUSS] Marketing Team

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Shane Curcuru  wrote:
> Huh.  I started my own collection of useful "how to work in Apache-style
> open source communities" list.  Are these useful enough I should add it as a
> link on community.a.o?
>
>  http://www.slideshare.net/shanecurcuru/favorites

Are they useful enough that they should be on Apache servers,
available for download (respective authors permitting, of course)?  Or
should Apache perhaps have its own slideshare page that people can
link to things from?

Don

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Donald Whytock]

Perhaps add to that list of actions a notice on the OOo page?

Don

Re: We're on slashdot!

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Simon Phipps  wrote:
> On Oct 14, 2011 7:04 PM, "Donald Whytock"  wrote:
>> Is it even four guys?  They list five title-related email addresses
>> and give the same phone number five times.  If I didn't know Team OO
>> existed before now I'd wonder if someone had just built a site from
>> random images.
>
> Many of us know the people involved very well and regard them as friends,
> which is I assume why there's been no discussion of the matter on this list
> before now. The company was informally created by a group of Sun Hamburg
> staff and is the steward of the (apparently considerable) donations of the
> community over the last few years, made through a link on the OOo home page.

Ah.  My apologies; I regret that my first exposure to them came via
that press release.

Re: We're on slashdot!

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
 wrote:
> I've read through the German materials at the site and, while Google 
> Translator does stumble, the gist of it is pretty clear.  This has all the 
> appearance of an over-the-top plea to fund 4 guys to save OpenOffice.org from 
> death-by-abandonment.  To further the confusion, the download link for 
> OpenOffice.org 3.3 is into .  The "Thank you 
> for your contribution" after a Paypal donation (they have my 5 Euro) is also 
> a page on http://openoffice.org.

Is it even four guys?  They list five title-related email addresses
and give the same phone number five times.  If I didn't know Team OO
existed before now I'd wonder if someone had just built a site from
random images.

Re: Migration: any plans to preserve mailing list archives?

[Donald Whytock]

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> 2) We could do a variation on #1, but where we sign up existing list
> subscribers automatically.
>
> Pro:  Transparent from subscribers view.  Not too hard for us.
> Con: Is this permitted, given data protection laws, legacy website
> terms of use, etc.  In other words, can we legally do this?
>
> 3) Variation on #2 where we send a notification email directly to each
> list subscriber and allow them to opt-in to transferring their
> subscription
>
> Pro:  Little effort (but not zero effort) required for list
> subscribers, respects data privacy
> Con: A bit of work for us

I would suggest #3 over #2...reduce the risk that the spammers will migrate.

Don

Re: PMC report for October 2011

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Ross Gardler
 wrote:
> I would hope that Don's first
> activity will be to define a consistent message from AOOo. Once
> defined any project member should, in theory, be able to contribute to
> ensure the message gets out.

How about starting with a blog post detailing these exciting
volunteering opportunities, that points to the Help Wanted page
(https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Help+Wanted),
where said masters and their duties can be listed?

Different Don

Re: PMC report for October 2011

[Donald Whytock]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> Other areas where we could use some volunteer leadership:
>
> 5) wiki master
>
> 6) bugzilla master
>
> 7) web master

IP master?  Coordinating the re-licensing process, looking at external
packages linked to, and being the go-to for future contributions?

Don

Re: [DISCUSS] Review of OpenOffice.org Forums Agreement

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>> Please not, there are not technical volunteers for fulfilling that
>> task. Terry E, who left the project, has mentioned this might be very
>> difficult or even impossible. This is a wish, but there is need of
>> somebody who does it.
>>
>
> But that is what the proposal on the wiki says.  The wiki has a
> "technical changes" section in the proposal that states:
>
> "A new public board "site governance" is established to discuss forum
> related tasks. The messages are sent automatically to a readonly
> mailinglist name "forum-sitegovernance@"
>
> A new private board "private xxx" is established to discuss sensitive
> tasks, like for example user behavior. The messages are sent
> automatically to a privately archived mailing list (allowing Apache
> Members and Apache OpenOffice PPMC members to view) with a specific
> tag"
>
> Is this an error?  Should that section of the proposal be removed?
>
> If it is removed, then what are we doing about audit trails, and such?
>  Does phpBB give us everything we need without having it echoed to a
> private list?  I'm fine with that.  But I think it is important that
> the proposal cover how the forums will satisfy that important
> requirement.

Many BB systems allow updates to threads to be sent to a participant's
email address.  Perhaps a pseudouser can be set up whose email address
is a private ASF list, so that forum posts are archived there...?

Don

Re: [DISCUSS] Publishing the PPMC Roster

[Donald Whytock]

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Donald Whytock  wrote:
> You might want to migrate/extend this discussion to imcubator general.
>  We've been working on a standard podlings XML file that would be used
> in webpage generation.  A standard per-podling XML file of, among
> other things, PPMC members might fit well with that.

http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201110.mbox/%3ccapfnckgjgfow9+6n-bllgmq7hq2sneo5a8zyun3psdyom3t...@mail.gmail.com%3e

Re: [DISCUSS] Publishing the PPMC Roster

[Donald Whytock]

On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:
> I have not found any visible place where Incubator PPMC rosters can be found
> automatically.
>
> I think it would be a good idea to have such a roster visible to the public
> and, especially, this list.

You might want to migrate/extend this discussion to imcubator general.
 We've been working on a standard podlings XML file that would be used
in webpage generation.  A standard per-podling XML file of, among
other things, PPMC members might fit well with that.

Don

Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for October 2011 (ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org)

[Donald Whytock]

On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Graham Lauder  wrote:
> Marketing is not simply about pr, spin and glossy pamphlets.

But I like glossy pamphlets.  They add color to my cubicle.

How about status/progress regarding IP resolution, as that's a
graduation requirement?

Don

Re: Top posting is bad

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Simon Phipps  wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2011, at 17:27, Ian Lynch wrote:
>> It's amazing how such small things can cause such controversy and angst.
>
> It's a sign of culture clash, in my view, rather than an issue in itself. 
> There's probably a Godwin's-Law-type aphorism about it.

Could also be sheer boredom. "Hey, there's something I can be actively
upset about!  I'm in!"

Don

Re: How do we want to announce new Committers/PPMC members

[Donald Whytock]

Looking at the AOO "people" page
(http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/people.html) I see "some of
our contributors".  Is this a list of committers?  If so, perhaps new
committers can be announced along the lines of, "The OpenOffice list
of Committers at  has updated with the addition of ."  Less
laudatory, more PSA.

If that list on the site isn't of committers, should it be?  Or should
there be one, with "other contributors" mentioned?

Don

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> A recent press article suggested that this project had not had any new
> committers since the project started.  This is false. But it would be
> hard to tell that, looking at our mailing list or website.
>
> So far we've been quiet about new committers.  We have the votes,
> process the paper work, etc., on the ooo-private list.
>
> Some Apache projects announce each new committer to their main mailing
> list.  Others don't.   We're received mixed advice from our mentors.
>
> IMHO, we want to avoid two errors, at the extremes:
>
> 1) A public announcement note for new committers that is read as being
> too congratulatory, one that makes those who are not committers (or
> not yet committers) feel less appreciated.
>
> 2) Total lack of any acknowledgement of new committers/PPMC that leads
> observers to believe that new committers are chosen in a secret
> ceremony involving ceremonial robes, oaths, and animal sacrifices.
>
> An announcement of a new committer should not be surprising.  It
> should confirm what any regular observer of the mailing list already
> knows, namely that person X is actively involved in the project and is
> making high quality contributions. So on one hand, acknowledging a new
> committer should not tell you anything that you don't already know.
>
> On the other hand, there is reinforcement value to stating what we
> know, especially for newer members of the project, i.e., the project's
> future committers.
>
> By analogy, I've worked in situations where job promotions were given
> secretly, and people were shy to ever speak of them.  It suggested
> that the company could not bear the scrutiny of seeing the inequity of
> hoiw promotions were given out.  And I've worked places where
> promotions were announced widely, with a summary of the person's
> recent contributions, reinforcing to the entire team the kinds of
> contributions that could get them -- some day -- a similar promotion.
>
> If we believe that we're doing a good job at selecting new committers
> then we should want this to be known.  Transparency shows the fairness
> of the process.
>
> Obviously the context here at Apache is not the same.  But I think the
> choices are analogous.
>
> Personally, I'm in favor of a modest announcement to the ooo-dev list
> after a new committer has been elected and have submitted the iCLA.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -Rob
>

Re: "LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice.org one year later"

[Donald Whytock]

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> Or are you saying that this is a point of a confusion that a
> journalist might have who is not familiar with how development works?

It might be a point of confusion for a journalist who titles an
article "LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice.org one year later", as if
AOO has actually existed for a year.  The tone of the article suggests
the intended title was "LibreOffice and Whatever Else Might Be Out
There, One Year Later".

More information put out in more ways might make AOOo less potshot-friendly.

Don

Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for September 2011 (ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org)

[Donald Whytock]

I'd like to suggest this be more detailed, so it's clear where the
problems are.  That way it's easier to determine what ASF can provide
that isn't provided already.

>>> The current committers are not equipped to fully resource the migration of
>>> OpenOffice.org sites and services under Apache OOo incubation.

Does "current committers" refer to people working on the Oracle site,
or the current pool of committers in the podling?

Does "resource" mean supply time, gain access, provide equipment, have skill?

>>>  Preservation of the Wiki is in doubt because of resource and support
>>> limitations.

Is this preservation of the wiki in its current form because the
Oracle servers are going away?   Preservation of the wiki data because
it's not being done in a timely manner?

>>>  Cutover of mailing-list and registration/forwarding systems
>>> is not resourced at all.

"Resourced" as in people designated/volunteering to do it, no
comparable Apache facility, no plan, no access?

>>>  The ability to make anticipatory modifications
>>> of OpenOffice.org in preparation for staging is also limited, with
>>> volunteer support and administration of the live system possibly eroding.

Specific problems with access, skill level, available people, timetable?

Am I overestimating what has to be in a podling report?

Don

Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for September 2011 (ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org)

[Donald Whytock]

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton  wrote:
> The current committers are not equipped to fully resource the migration of 
> OpenOffice.org sites and services under Apache OOo incubation.  Preservation 
> of the Wiki is in doubt because of resource and support limitations.   
> Cutover of mailing-list and registration/forwarding systems is not resourced 
> at all.  The ability to make anticipatory modifications of OpenOffice.org in 
> preparation for staging is also limited, with volunteer support and 
> administration of the live system possibly eroding.

How is "resource" defined in this?

Don

Re: Umbrella projects

[Donald Whytock]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> Why not just send the ballot to
> ooo-commits in Sumerian?

I should think that would have to at least start out on ooo-dev-sux.

NL development outsider here, asking for clarification...Would changes
to the ixn components be considered changes to the "source"?  Because
if it doesn't involve actual code changes I could see such a thing
justifying a vote on some ooo-dev-xx but then only needing lazy
consensus on ooo-dev.

Don

Re: Real names (was: What is needed for Support Forums to be fully integrated into the Apache OpenOffice.org project)

[Donald Whytock]

There's also the good old "I don't want my boss to see how much time I
spend here."  But for me that's my Facebook ID.  The Apache community
is where I want to be seen.

Don

Re: [legal] ICLA paragraph 7

[Donald Whytock]

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Pedro F. Giffuni  wrote:
> OpenOffice is probably a special case wrt patents and
> that's a special strength behind the Apache License so
> I think it's good in case of big contributions (like
> IBM's) to have such a document but otherwise I don't
> think it's standard practice on Apache to ask for
> signatures for small contributions.

Under another Apache project, Apache Camel, the JIRA system allows
contributions of code and changelists, which requires a box be checked
that says the contribution is made under the terms and policies, etc.
This is done on a per-contribution basis, and doesn't require a CLA
from the contributor.  Said contribution would then need to actually
be applied by a CLA-submitted committer.

Don

Re: Request dev help: Info for required crypto export declaration

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 11:25 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> I'd rather not file false information with the government.  Of course,
> you are welcome to do so, if you think the need is urgent.

Can I cite that in my next indictment?

Don

Re: An invitation to committers to the OOo Community Forums

[Donald Whytock]

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 9:37 AM, Christian Grobmeier  wrote:
> Do you really want to discuss a users behavior in public?
> Wow, I really don't want to do that. I strongly believe that only a
> few people would discuss another guys behavior in public.

It happens.  In fact it happened here, on this list, yesterday.  There
was some pretty excessive vitriol, open and in public.  And yet it
seemed to work into more mature and rational discussion today.

If behavior discussions are going to occur at all, it's probably
better that they happen in public rather than there be the feeling of
a secret faceless committee to which users can neither respond nor
appeal.  The latter can lead to discontent.

Don

Re: Request dev help: Info for required crypto export declaration

[Donald Whytock]

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
 wrote:
> EAR 740.13(e) should be on
> http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=bad7a54a31430303e17ce648c13e51b3&rgn=div5&view=text&node=15:2.1.3.4.25&idno=15#15:2.1.3.4.25.0.1.13
>
> Robert
>

Thanks, Robert.

IANAL, but on that page I see reference to the phrase "publicly
available encryption source code".  ASF, by charter, is a repository
of publicly available source code.  If OOo is officially an ASF
project, does that take it out of the category of a product for export
and into the category of publicly available source code?

Don