Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Migrating zones between OpenIndiana machines

[Okky Hendriansyah]

Hi Dave,

What are the output of "zfs list" on both machines? I think you have to create 
the "myzone" ZFS dataset on machine 2 before attaching the zone to it.

Regards,
Okky Hendriansyah

-Original Message-
From: Dave Koelmeyer 
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 06:03:41 
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Reply-To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana 
Subject: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Migrating zones between OpenIndiana machines

Hi,

I'm having a hell of a time trying to simply migrate a zone from one OI machine 
to another, wondering if anyone can help. Both machines are running oi_147

I have configured and install a NGZ on machine 1, and wish to detach and 
install it on machine 2.

I am following the guide here:

http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E19044-01/sol.containers/819-2450/gcgnc/index.html


On machine 1:

First I have run zoneadm -z myzone detach
Then, cd /rpool/zones/zone_roots and tar cvf myzone.tar myzone/

This creates a .tar file of the zone, which I've then copied over to machine 2

On machine 2:

I've extracted the .tar file to /rpool/zones/zone_roots

The above steps so far are all covered at:

http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E19044-01/sol.containers/819-2450/gcglo/index.html

So, next I run:
zonecfg -z myzone
create -a /rpool/zones/zone_roots/myzone

I alter the zone configuration properties as needed for networking etc, then 
commit and exit.

Finally, I attempt to attach the zone:
pfexec zoneadm -z myzone attach

at which point I get:
Log File: /var/tmp/myzone.attach_log.Wsaq8n
ERROR: no active dataset.
Result: Attach Failed.

What is this referring to, and why can I not find any reference to it in the 
documentation? Any pointers welcome :)

Cheers,
Dave
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[OpenIndiana-discuss] Migrating zones between OpenIndiana machines

[Dave Koelmeyer]

Hi,

I'm having a hell of a time trying to simply migrate a zone from one OI machine 
to another, wondering if anyone can help. Both machines are running oi_147

I have configured and install a NGZ on machine 1, and wish to detach and 
install it on machine 2.

I am following the guide here:

http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E19044-01/sol.containers/819-2450/gcgnc/index.html


On machine 1:

First I have run zoneadm -z myzone detach
Then, cd /rpool/zones/zone_roots and tar cvf myzone.tar myzone/

This creates a .tar file of the zone, which I've then copied over to machine 2

On machine 2:

I've extracted the .tar file to /rpool/zones/zone_roots

The above steps so far are all covered at:

http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E19044-01/sol.containers/819-2450/gcglo/index.html

So, next I run:
zonecfg -z myzone
create -a /rpool/zones/zone_roots/myzone

I alter the zone configuration properties as needed for networking etc, then 
commit and exit.

Finally, I attempt to attach the zone:
pfexec zoneadm -z myzone attach

at which point I get:
Log File: /var/tmp/myzone.attach_log.Wsaq8n
ERROR: no active dataset.
Result: Attach Failed.

What is this referring to, and why can I not find any reference to it in the 
documentation? Any pointers welcome :)

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Christopher Chan]

On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 10:54 AM, Allan Echavia Registos wrote:

Kumusta Christopher:


Mabuti, ikaw?



On 5/25/2011 8:28 AM, Christopher Chan wrote:

On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 08:20 AM, Allan E. Registos wrote:

+1.
Be friendly to Linux users(me a Linux user), as these are the people
that will often convert to BSD and Solaris/OI. I think most
enterprise data centers nowadays are a hive of heterogeneous
technologies.




I came from Linux over the OpenSolaris too but I did not expect people
to hold my hand. Being friendly should not mean being willing to hold
hand of critical whiner. Even within Linux you get people who won't
touch certain distros because the toolchains are different and that's
usually because they were not willing to learn about those new
toolchains/system scripts

It is true that there are people who doesn't want change and want to
stay in their comfort zone. But If you invested much time in that
environment(you have many applications 
running on your current platform where ERP was the most notorious), then
even if the new OS with promising enterprise features doesn't worth the
switch, for this exact reason, we still have Windows XP installed. But
that new technology can be added in the mix as long as it is relevant.


There is only so much one can do on that score. wine works on 
OpenIndiana but like all things wine, not every Windows app will work. 
But I guess that is why we have to go gcc for future OI dev...way too 
much stuff out there with gcc'isms and Sun Studio taking some time to 
support all those extensions...




but you won't see deb distro guys going out of their way to make
things familiar for rpm distro users and vice versa.

You need to support both if you build Linux systems to customers.



But that is not the problem of the distro makers. The developers are the 
ones that need to learn the packaging system used by the distro and what 
is/is not available in the system provided packages. But I suppose the 
Indian guys (Belenix?) might get a better bait trap for developers if 
they pull off their rpm based distro. Oh, did I forget to mention that 
they do KDE too?


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Allan Echavia Registos]

Kumusta Christopher:

On 5/25/2011 8:28 AM, Christopher Chan wrote:

On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 08:20 AM, Allan E. Registos wrote:

+1.
Be friendly to Linux users(me a Linux user), as these are the people 
that will often convert to BSD and Solaris/OI. I think most 
enterprise data centers nowadays are a hive of heterogeneous 
technologies.





I came from Linux over the OpenSolaris too but I did not expect people 
to hold my hand. Being friendly should not mean being willing to hold 
hand of critical whiner. Even within Linux you get people who won't 
touch certain distros because the toolchains are different and that's 
usually because they were not willing to learn about those new 
toolchains/system scripts
It is true that there are people who doesn't want change and want to 
stay in their comfort zone. But If you invested much time in that 
environment(you have many applications  
running on your current platform where ERP was the most notorious), then 
even if the new OS with promising enterprise features doesn't worth the 
switch,  for this exact reason, we still have Windows XP installed. But 
that new technology can be added in the mix as long as it is relevant.
but you won't see deb distro guys going out of their way to make 
things familiar for rpm distro users and vice versa. 

You need to support both if you build Linux systems to customers.


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] zpool lost, and no pools available?

[Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk]

> > I just attended this HTC conference and had a chat with a guy from
> > UiO (university of oslo) about ZFS. He claimed Solaris/OI will die
> > silently if a single pool fails. I have seen similar earlier, then
> > due to a bug in ZFS (two drives lost in a RAIDz2, spares taking
> > over, resilvering and then a third drive lost), and the system is
> > hanging. Not even the rpool seems to be available.
> >
> > Can someone please confirm this or tell me if there is a workaround
> > available?
>
> man zpool /failmode

You may want to RTFM yourself befor replying. The docs say standard procedure 
is to put the pool into wait, which is ok, but the problem is that not only the 
pool in question is put into wait, but all pools.

Please refrain from RTFMing people before digging into the material

Vennlige hilsener / Best regards

roy
--
Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
(+47) 97542685
r...@karlsbakk.net
http://blogg.karlsbakk.net/
--
I all pedagogikk er det essensielt at pensum presenteres intelligibelt. Det er 
et elementært imperativ for alle pedagoger å unngå eksessiv anvendelse av 
idiomer med fremmed opprinnelse. I de fleste tilfeller eksisterer adekvate og 
relevante synonymer på norsk.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Christopher Chan]

On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 08:20 AM, Allan E. Registos wrote:

+1.
Be friendly to Linux users(me a Linux user), as these are the people that will 
often convert to BSD and Solaris/OI. I think most enterprise data centers 
nowadays are a hive of heterogeneous technologies.




I came from Linux over the OpenSolaris too but I did not expect people 
to hold my hand. Being friendly should not mean being willing to hold 
hand of critical whiner. Even within Linux you get people who won't 
touch certain distros because the toolchains are different and that's 
usually because they were not willing to learn about those new 
toolchains/system scripts but you won't see deb distro guys going out of 
their way to make things familiar for rpm distro users and vice versa.


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Allan E. Registos]

+1. 
Be friendly to Linux users(me a Linux user), as these are the people that will 
often convert to BSD and Solaris/OI. I think most enterprise data centers 
nowadays are a hive of heterogeneous technologies. 


Regards, 
Allan 

- Original Message -
From: "Alasdair Lumsden"  
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana"  
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:33:40 PM 
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info? 

On 24 May 2011, at 13:10, Ken Gunderson wrote: 
> Especially when that distro is loosing respect from those who actually 
> have a clue or two due to continued track record of bugs that result in 
> very unreliable platform choice for the server room. 

Inflammatory and arrogant comments like this are not constructive, nor are they 
welcome. 

We're trying to create a friendly, open and inclusive community here. Attacking 
other distributions and the users of those distributions has the opposite 
affect, and will drive people away. 

Please can people be mindful of the language they use on-list and realise that 
list members are ambassadors for the OS. 

Keep it technical, don't get personal. 

Regards, 

Alasdair 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Christopher Chan]

On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 03:41 AM, LinuxBSDos.com wrote:

One of the thought forms floating in the ethers is UNIX/Linux is difficult
to use. Even people who have never used it, believe it. Months ago, I went
to fix my car and decided to bring a book to kill time with while I
waited. It just happened to be a book on Linux.


The problem starts right there in the education system. Some people are 
making inroads but there are many more that are dissing UNIX/Linux 
because they grew up on MSDOS and MS Windows and cannot be bothered to 
learn UNIX/Linux. Nevermind the fact that most grade/high schools have 
dumbed down their curriculum and focused on Windows.


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Allan E. Registos]

> 
>From: "Ken Gunderson"  
>To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana"  
>Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:16:40 PM 
>Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info? 
> 
>The presumption that something is the best based on distrowatch listing 
>is a fallacy. 
> 




Kenderson: For the record, I did not say it is the best. Distrowatch is neutral 
on that issue methinks. 


> 

>Ubuntu has buzz, and it's intended as seamless as 
>possible transition for Winblows users. Hence, lot's of said users are 
>hearing about it and downloading for a test drive. 
> 


Yes = Windows users -> Linux users -> BSD/Solaris users. So be friendly to 
Linux users please. 




> 
> 

>I think OI, and indeed, all OS platform should place a higher premium on 
>values such as reliability, robustness, security, performant, etc. 
>rather than the number of downloads by relatively low tech users. 
>Unless your hidden FOSS agenda is to create a revenue stream by 
>providing support contracts to said lower tech users. 
> 
> 


Low tech vs. high tech is highly subjective when talking of Operating Systems 
and the application it supports. 


Regards, 
Allan 



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Blake]

I'm glad we are discussing our appeal (or lack of it) to devs.  I don't care
so much about the specifics of how we stay sexy, just that we do it.

If you work with developers who haven't grown up on Solaris, ask them to try
it and see how they like it :)  We can improve.

Ok - back to work 

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 4:09 PM, David  wrote:

> On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Richard L. Hamilton 
> wrote:
> > Presumably there's a balance with this, as with most things.
> >
> > But giving in is not without costs.  Making the quarterly look good often
> leaves one out of position for the long haul.
> >
> > Maybe one could do both.  Use familiarity tools, but _only_ as a
> temporary measure, while concurrently encouraging native familiarity.
>  Encourage standards (and the isolation of code that needs to use
> non-portable features).  Clean code costs less to maintain, gets a better
> reputation, and is an insurance policy when the hot platform changes and
> porting is needed.
> >
> >
>
> Having a nice "out-of-box experience" for developers does not
> necessarily mean providing the old tools.  That was not my point.
>
> Just a clear, obvious, and guided path to apply existing knowledge and
> habits to the new environment.
>
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[OpenIndiana-discuss] Zpool 4k sectors - zfs send/recv

[Matt Connolly]

I'm about to expand my storage from 2 drives in a mirror to 4 drives (2 x 
mirrors concatenated). After this stage 3 of my 4 drives will be Advanced 
format drives, so I'm looking at the zpool with block-size 4096 (ashift=9).

I will have the opportunity here to format the new drives using the 4096 byte 
block size, by doing this:

(starting with zpool which is a mirror on drive1 and drive2)
1. zpool create newpool block-size 4096 mirror drive3 drive4
2. zfs send -R zpool/blah | zfs recv newpool/blah
3. zpool destroy zpool
4. zpool add newpool mirror drive1 drive2

Any gotchas here I need to know about?

This is going to result in all existing data on drive3/4 mirror vdev and a 
pretty empty drive1/2 mirror vdev. Are there any ways to get the data 
redistributed across the drives?



I'm running some tests with just one filesystem onto a test pool (file backing 
store) and I notice that the disk usage goes up significantly, by about 30%:

root@vault:~# zfs list zpool/projects/something
NAMEUSED  AVAIL  REFER  MOUNTPOINT
zpool/projects/something  49.8M  94.0G  28.8M  /projects/something
root@vault:~# zfs list ztest/projects/soundevolution
NAMEUSED  AVAIL  REFER  MOUNTPOINT
ztest/projects/something  65.3M  1.89G  38.0M  /ztest/projects/something

The used amount goes up from 28.8M to 38.0M, which is exactly as `du -h` 
reports. This file system has about 3000 files in it; not massive. I've 
compared the `du -h ` output from the two filesystems above and here's a few 
changes in file size:
1k  -> 8k
1k  -> 8k
3k  -> 17k
6k  -> 17k
7k  -> 25k
5k  -> 18k
17k -> 57k
383k-> 839k
7.3M-> 7.5M
8k  -> 47k

etc..

As I expect, most of the difference is in the smaller files. I am surprised, 
though, at how much the files are increasing in size by - I would have expected 
an increase of up to 4k per file (and perhaps another 4k for metadata). But 3k 
to 17k? 5k to 18k? 17k to 57k?

Is this normal? Curiosity makes me ask why?

And if zfs is so much less efficient with larger block sizes, is the ashift=9 
thing something that only database users for example (or other users of very 
large files) should even consider??


Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Matt



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI meeting 24th May 2011 write up

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 23:56 +0100, Deano wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>  
> 
> This OI meeting was dominated by one topic 151 and the road to stable! My
> write up /synopsis of the OI meeting is at
> 
>  
> 
> http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/oi-meeting+24th+May+2011
> 
>  
> 
> Hope that is interesting and if anybody in the meeting notices any mistakes,
> let me know and I'll get them fixed

Thanks, Deano.  Could someone please repost link to actual irc logs? I
seem to have lost it...:-[

-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[David]

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Richard L. Hamilton  wrote:
> Presumably there's a balance with this, as with most things.
>
> But giving in is not without costs.  Making the quarterly look good often 
> leaves one out of position for the long haul.
>
> Maybe one could do both.  Use familiarity tools, but _only_ as a temporary 
> measure, while concurrently encouraging native familiarity.  Encourage 
> standards (and the isolation of code that needs to use non-portable 
> features).  Clean code costs less to maintain, gets a better reputation, and 
> is an insurance policy when the hot platform changes and porting is needed.
>
>

Having a nice "out-of-box experience" for developers does not
necessarily mean providing the old tools.  That was not my point.

Just a clear, obvious, and guided path to apply existing knowledge and
habits to the new environment.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 18:50 -0400, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> Presumably there's a balance with this, as with most things.
> 
> But giving in is not without costs.  Making the quarterly look good often 
> leaves one out of position for the long haul.

Peter F. Drucker, widely acknowledged as the father of modern management
science wrote some verbiage about this very problem decades ago.  Many
of his predictions of dire consequences for such behavior came home to
roost in 2008.  But yet those who do not learn from history are still
doomed to repeat it sigh

-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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[OpenIndiana-discuss] OI meeting 24th May 2011 write up

[Deano]

Hi,

 

This OI meeting was dominated by one topic 151 and the road to stable! My
write up /synopsis of the OI meeting is at

 

http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/oi-meeting+24th+May+2011

 

Hope that is interesting and if anybody in the meeting notices any mistakes,
let me know and I'll get them fixed

 

Bye,

Deano

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[OpenIndiana-discuss] LibreOffice 3.3.2?

[Gary]

Has anyone compiled this under OI yet? Just curious if anyone has had
any feedback on the process as I'm looking to move away from
OpenOffice.org on a couple of platforms.

thanks,
Gary

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Richard L. Hamilton]

Presumably there's a balance with this, as with most things.

But giving in is not without costs.  Making the quarterly look good often 
leaves one out of position for the long haul.

Maybe one could do both.  Use familiarity tools, but _only_ as a temporary 
measure, while concurrently encouraging native familiarity.  Encourage 
standards (and the isolation of code that needs to use non-portable features).  
Clean code costs less to maintain, gets a better reputation, and is an 
insurance policy when the hot platform changes and porting is needed.

The problem I have with expediencies is not recognizing that they're sometimes 
needed.  It's that they become the norm even when _not_ needed, with little or 
no commitment to clean up after; it's always move on to the next thing, and 
curse the old as "legacy", which usually flies since the management has changed 
since then anyway.  It's like reorgs; it takes a couple years to really make 
one work, but by then the managers have padded their resumes with "led X 
through reorg" and moved on, so they're almost always a symbolic exercise that 
leaves chaos and _more_ bureaucracy and turf battles in its wake.  Changing 
organizational structures, or OS's, does not confer magic results.  It takes 
changing _people_, or at any rate their applied skills, to approach that.  It 
takes both techies and managers that know the difference between white papers 
and _judgement_.

Doing something right means _both_ being responsive now _and_ maintainable for 
the long run.

On May 24, 2011, at 6:11 PM, Blake wrote:

> I certainly understand your point of view, Richard.  Unfortunately, fewer
> developers nowadays understand systems, and that's not likely to improve.
> 
> My point is more that tool choice in business is driven by opportunity cost
> and the bottom line.  If I have to spend an extra two weeks training devs to
> use a Solaris platform, management will often prefer to use the faster,
> albeit sloppier, Linux platform instead.  Hence the meteoric rise of Ubuntu,
> Ruby, RVM and other easy-but-not-that-stable tools.  Stability ends up
> getting handled with horizontal scale across many systems, rather than
> making a smaller set of monolithic systems highly reliable.
> 
> I predict that if we as a Solaris community don't adapt to this changing
> corporate landscape we will be relegated to a corner along with AIX and
> HP-UX.  In *every* development environment I've worked in, developer
> response to my suggestion to try Solaris has always started with "why?  it's
> too hard to use/compile on/install".  I've been able to change these
> opinions in some cases, but it's a hellish uphill battle when the Solaris
> community has refused (until fairly recently), to compromise in the
> userspace.
> 
> All I want is to get as many people as possible using and contributing to
> this project :)
> 
> 
> Blake
> 
> On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On May 24, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Blake Irvin wrote:
>> 
>>> As a longtime Solaris user I don't have to be convinced that it's better
>> in many ways than Linux.  But there is a reality that I've been forced to
>> embrace - developers don't care.
>>> 
>>> I'm in the process right now of helping a large development team make the
>> transition to a Solaris hosting solution.  I've spent hundreds of hours with
>> my operations team customizing our environments so that they 'look and feel'
>> like Ubuntu.
>>> 
>>> Why?  Because that's what the current crop of developers know, and it's
>> too expensive to train them otherwise.
>> 
>> Being both a programmer and a sysadmin, I wonder how good a developer is
>> that needs to be trained to learn something new.  There's got to be a
>> "Solaris for Linux users" doc around somewhere.  If someone can write code,
>> they _should_ be able to read English, too.
>> 
>> If they're too stumped to _use_ more than one environment, they're
>> certainly not going to be the brightest about writing portable code.
>> 
>> People who have trouble learning something new are just dead men walking.
>> Flip the switch, enjoy the crackly sound, and get new ones.
>> 
>> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[David]

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Blake  wrote:
> I certainly understand your point of view, Richard.  Unfortunately, fewer
> developers nowadays understand systems, and that's not likely to improve.
>
> My point is more that tool choice in business is driven by opportunity cost
> and the bottom line.  If I have to spend an extra two weeks training devs to
> use a Solaris platform, management will often prefer to use the faster,
> albeit sloppier, Linux platform instead.  Hence the meteoric rise of Ubuntu,
> Ruby, RVM and other easy-but-not-that-stable tools.  Stability ends up
> getting handled with horizontal scale across many systems, rather than
> making a smaller set of monolithic systems highly reliable.
>
> I predict that if we as a Solaris community don't adapt to this changing
> corporate landscape we will be relegated to a corner along with AIX and
> HP-UX.  In *every* development environment I've worked in, developer
> response to my suggestion to try Solaris has always started with "why?  it's
> too hard to use/compile on/install".  I've been able to change these
> opinions in some cases, but it's a hellish uphill battle when the Solaris
> community has refused (until fairly recently), to compromise in the
> userspace.
>
> All I want is to get as many people as possible using and contributing to
> this project :)
>

I've seen the same.

For simply the lack of a friendly & developer oriented "out-of-box
experience", Solaris/OI is quickly down rated.

The Ruby example is a good one.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Blake]

I certainly understand your point of view, Richard.  Unfortunately, fewer
developers nowadays understand systems, and that's not likely to improve.

My point is more that tool choice in business is driven by opportunity cost
and the bottom line.  If I have to spend an extra two weeks training devs to
use a Solaris platform, management will often prefer to use the faster,
albeit sloppier, Linux platform instead.  Hence the meteoric rise of Ubuntu,
Ruby, RVM and other easy-but-not-that-stable tools.  Stability ends up
getting handled with horizontal scale across many systems, rather than
making a smaller set of monolithic systems highly reliable.

I predict that if we as a Solaris community don't adapt to this changing
corporate landscape we will be relegated to a corner along with AIX and
HP-UX.  In *every* development environment I've worked in, developer
response to my suggestion to try Solaris has always started with "why?  it's
too hard to use/compile on/install".  I've been able to change these
opinions in some cases, but it's a hellish uphill battle when the Solaris
community has refused (until fairly recently), to compromise in the
userspace.

All I want is to get as many people as possible using and contributing to
this project :)


Blake

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:

>
> On May 24, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Blake Irvin wrote:
>
> > As a longtime Solaris user I don't have to be convinced that it's better
> in many ways than Linux.  But there is a reality that I've been forced to
> embrace - developers don't care.
> >
> > I'm in the process right now of helping a large development team make the
> transition to a Solaris hosting solution.  I've spent hundreds of hours with
> my operations team customizing our environments so that they 'look and feel'
> like Ubuntu.
> >
> > Why?  Because that's what the current crop of developers know, and it's
> too expensive to train them otherwise.
>
> Being both a programmer and a sysadmin, I wonder how good a developer is
> that needs to be trained to learn something new.  There's got to be a
> "Solaris for Linux users" doc around somewhere.  If someone can write code,
> they _should_ be able to read English, too.
>
> If they're too stumped to _use_ more than one environment, they're
> certainly not going to be the brightest about writing portable code.
>
> People who have trouble learning something new are just dead men walking.
>  Flip the switch, enjoy the crackly sound, and get new ones.
>
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Richard L. Hamilton]

On May 24, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Blake Irvin wrote:

> As a longtime Solaris user I don't have to be convinced that it's better in 
> many ways than Linux.  But there is a reality that I've been forced to 
> embrace - developers don't care.
> 
> I'm in the process right now of helping a large development team make the 
> transition to a Solaris hosting solution.  I've spent hundreds of hours with 
> my operations team customizing our environments so that they 'look and feel' 
> like Ubuntu.
> 
> Why?  Because that's what the current crop of developers know, and it's too 
> expensive to train them otherwise.

Being both a programmer and a sysadmin, I wonder how good a developer is that 
needs to be trained to learn something new.  There's got to be a "Solaris for 
Linux users" doc around somewhere.  If someone can write code, they _should_ be 
able to read English, too.

If they're too stumped to _use_ more than one environment, they're certainly 
not going to be the brightest about writing portable code.

People who have trouble learning something new are just dead men walking.  Flip 
the switch, enjoy the crackly sound, and get new ones.


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[LinuxBSDos.com]

One of the thought forms floating in the ethers is UNIX/Linux is difficult
to use. Even people who have never used it, believe it. Months ago, I went
to fix my car and decided to bring a book to kill time with while I
waited. It just happened to be a book on Linux.

A mechanic saw me reading it and said, "So you are using Linux, huh.. good
luck with that." To him, Linux is difficult to use. But he has never
touched a Linux-powered computer. Even seasoned Windows admins tend to
subscribe to this falsehood.

I struggle anytime I have to use Windows. It's not because Windows is
difficult, but because I'm not familiar with it.

My experience is once you introduce somebody to Linux, they never look
back, except when they have to use a program that cannot run on Linux. We
just need to write good graphical interfaces and introduce them to the
masses. Once they see it, most will like, and they will use it, if the
programs do not get in their way.

However, for some reason, we are finding it very difficult not to shoot
ourselves in the foot. Otherwise, how can anybody explain GNOME 3 and
Ubuntu Unity? IT's a sorry state of affairs.

I'll make a very detailed review of OI soon and share my thoughts and
suggestions here.

--
Fini Decima
http://LinuxBSDos.com




> Just a little insight on the behavior of human race that i experienced at
> home:
> I had a laptop with Windows XP Home with Office XP that crashed at one
> day.
> I had used the installer partition for something else, so I installed
> OpenSolaris instead.
>
> My family (wife and kids) cried several days that it was completely
> unusable. Accoording to them everything looked different and OpenOffice
> was
> not usable at all. They had to search too long to find the things they
> wanted.
>
> So at the end I bought a new laptop with Windows 7 and Office 2007.
>
> Now have ever looked at the differences between office XP and office 2007
> or
> between Windows Xp and Windows 7?
> They have never complained about anything! *sigh*
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Blake Irvin [mailto:blake.ir...@gmail.com]
> Sent: dinsdag 24 mei 2011 18:13
> To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
> Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?
>
> As a longtime Solaris user I don't have to be convinced that it's better
> in
> many ways than Linux.  But there is a reality that I've been forced to
> embrace - developers don't care.
>
> I'm in the process right now of helping a large development team make the
> transition to a Solaris hosting solution.  I've spent hundreds of hours
> with
> my operations team customizing our environments so that they 'look and
> feel'
> like Ubuntu.
>
> Why?  Because that's what the current crop of developers know, and it's
> too
> expensive to train them otherwise.
>
> My operations team knows that Solaris is great, and we plan to use RBAC to
> give our dev users safe access to certain system features, but we don't
> ask
> the devs to relearn their userland.
>
> On of Apple's great insights, IMHO, was courting developers with a OS
> userland that *felt* like Linux.  They did this for pragmatic reasons and
> have seen an explosion of new applications. Do we see this for Solaris?
> No.
>
> I love Solaris and want to see OpenIndiana and related distros thrive, so
> I
> suggest we give everybody what they want.
>
> I propose an installer or configuration tool that let's a user choose
> either
> a 'Server' (traditional Solaris) userland or a 'Compatibility' or
> 'Developer' mode (one that defaults to Linux/GNU binaries, sudo, GCC,
> etc).
>
> We all laugh when we watch Ballmer's 'Developers! Developers! Developers!
> Developers!' video, but Sun went out of business almost and MS is still a
> giant.  Let's be willing to compromise in a smart way so that the OS we
> all
> love can reach as many users as possible.
>
>
> best,
> Blake
>
> (If anyone is interested in discussing my proposal in more depth, I'd be
> happy to start a new thread or take this offline.)
>
>
> sent from a Unix host smaller than my open hand.
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Wed, 2011-05-25 at 00:22 +0600, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
> > I think Debian is a very nice Linux distro.
> 
> Many OpenSolaris/OI users share this feeling - this is because 
> OpenSolaris has (kind of) inherited it's look and feel from Debian - 
> thanks to Ian Murdock.
> 
> My personal favorite in Debian is System -> Administration -> Services. 
> Nice and simple.

My Debian usage far predates that - I think I still have 1.0 CD's around
here somewhere

That said, there's reasons I got away from Linux.  If our objective is
to simply emulate Linux, and I know/hope that it is not, then I have
many mature Linux distros to choose from w/o having to endure the
growing pains of OI.  OI's attraction is that it has the potential to be
far, far more than just another Linux.  Incorporating features from
various Linux distros based on sound technical merit is just dandy.
Emulating e.g. Ubuntu primarily for the sake of lowering the bar to
entry, however, would not lead to a success, merely just another also
ran "Linux" distro.  Part of my reaction to this is that I've sat in on
meetings where decision makers did precisely this, to the point of going
against sound technical analysis, so mayhaps I'm a bit sensitive when I
read comments which may be even remotely construed as such.

Peace-- ken


-- 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Open Indiana]

Just a little insight on the behavior of human race that i experienced at
home:
I had a laptop with Windows XP Home with Office XP that crashed at one day.
I had used the installer partition for something else, so I installed
OpenSolaris instead. 

My family (wife and kids) cried several days that it was completely
unusable. Accoording to them everything looked different and OpenOffice was
not usable at all. They had to search too long to find the things they
wanted. 

So at the end I bought a new laptop with Windows 7 and Office 2007. 

Now have ever looked at the differences between office XP and office 2007 or
between Windows Xp and Windows 7? 
They have never complained about anything! *sigh* 
  



-Original Message-
From: Blake Irvin [mailto:blake.ir...@gmail.com] 
Sent: dinsdag 24 mei 2011 18:13
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

As a longtime Solaris user I don't have to be convinced that it's better in
many ways than Linux.  But there is a reality that I've been forced to
embrace - developers don't care.

I'm in the process right now of helping a large development team make the
transition to a Solaris hosting solution.  I've spent hundreds of hours with
my operations team customizing our environments so that they 'look and feel'
like Ubuntu.

Why?  Because that's what the current crop of developers know, and it's too
expensive to train them otherwise.

My operations team knows that Solaris is great, and we plan to use RBAC to
give our dev users safe access to certain system features, but we don't ask
the devs to relearn their userland.

On of Apple's great insights, IMHO, was courting developers with a OS
userland that *felt* like Linux.  They did this for pragmatic reasons and
have seen an explosion of new applications. Do we see this for Solaris?  No.

I love Solaris and want to see OpenIndiana and related distros thrive, so I
suggest we give everybody what they want.

I propose an installer or configuration tool that let's a user choose either
a 'Server' (traditional Solaris) userland or a 'Compatibility' or
'Developer' mode (one that defaults to Linux/GNU binaries, sudo, GCC, etc).

We all laugh when we watch Ballmer's 'Developers! Developers! Developers!
Developers!' video, but Sun went out of business almost and MS is still a
giant.  Let's be willing to compromise in a smart way so that the OS we all
love can reach as many users as possible.


best,
Blake

(If anyone is interested in discussing my proposal in more depth, I'd be
happy to start a new thread or take this offline.)


sent from a Unix host smaller than my open hand.
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Albert Lee]

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov  wrote:
>> I think Debian is a very nice Linux distro.
>
> Many OpenSolaris/OI users share this feeling - this is because OpenSolaris
> has (kind of) inherited it's look and feel from Debian - thanks to Ian
> Murdock.
>


Ian served mostly as a community figurehead, and had little influence
on the design of the distribution (the largest influences were
probably from the kernel team for the packaging and installer).

-Albert

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] zpool lost, and no pools available?

[Albert Lee]

man zpool /failmode

-Albert

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk  
wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I just attended this HTC conference and had a chat with a guy from UiO 
> (university of oslo) about ZFS. He claimed Solaris/OI will die silently if a 
> single pool fails. I have seen similar earlier, then due to a bug in ZFS (two 
> drives lost in a RAIDz2, spares taking over, resilvering and then a third 
> drive lost), and the system is hanging. Not even the rpool seems to be 
> available.
>
> Can someone please confirm this or tell me if there is a workaround available?
>
> Vennlige hilsener / Best regards
>
> roy
> --
> Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
> (+47) 97542685
> r...@karlsbakk.net
> http://blogg.karlsbakk.net/
> --
> I all pedagogikk er det essensielt at pensum presenteres intelligibelt. Det 
> er et elementært imperativ for alle pedagoger å unngå eksessiv anvendelse av 
> idiomer med fremmed opprinnelse. I de fleste tilfeller eksisterer adekvate og 
> relevante synonymer på norsk.
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Dmitry G. Kozhinov]

> I think Debian is a very nice Linux distro.

Many OpenSolaris/OI users share this feeling - this is because 
OpenSolaris has (kind of) inherited it's look and feel from Debian - 
thanks to Ian Murdock.


My personal favorite in Debian is System -> Administration -> Services. 
Nice and simple.


Dmitry.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Dmitry G. Kozhinov]

> I could go on and list all the features I wish to see on a perfect
> operating system, but I do not think that is what this thread was 
intended

> for.

Please list them :)
I think that here is the appropriate place for a discussion on what the 
perfect operating system should be. We all want to help make OI the 
perfect OS, and contribution of some ideas may be the key.


Dmitry.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Failure while upgrading OpenIndiana

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 12:05 -0400, Gary Gendel wrote:
> I tried to upgrade with the following command:
> 
> pkg image-update --accept --be-name snv_151 --require-new-be
> 
> but it got hung.  I tried it several times with the same result:
> 
> DOWNLOAD  PKGS   FILESXFER (MB)
> mail/thunderbird/plugin/thunderbir...  206/878  2422/15133  112.6/483.4
> 
> 
> Errors were encountered while attempting to retrieve package or file 
> data for
> the requested operation.
> Details follow:
> 
> 1: Framework error: code: 28 reason: Operation too slow. Less than 1024 
> bytes/sec transfered the last 30 seconds
> URL: 
> 'http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev-il/file/1/30587f092830594caedb71f6cf028119d705da45'.
> 2: Framework error: code: 56
> URL: 
> 'http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev-il/file/1/30587f092830594caedb71f6cf028119d705da45'.
>  
> (happened 3 times)

Fwiw, my update using essentially same command line completed
successfully.


-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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[OpenIndiana-discuss] zpool lost, and no pools available?

[Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk]

Hi all

I just attended this HTC conference and had a chat with a guy from UiO 
(university of oslo) about ZFS. He claimed Solaris/OI will die silently if a 
single pool fails. I have seen similar earlier, then due to a bug in ZFS (two 
drives lost in a RAIDz2, spares taking over, resilvering and then a third drive 
lost), and the system is hanging. Not even the rpool seems to be available.

Can someone please confirm this or tell me if there is a workaround available?

Vennlige hilsener / Best regards

roy
--
Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
(+47) 97542685
r...@karlsbakk.net
http://blogg.karlsbakk.net/
--
I all pedagogikk er det essensielt at pensum presenteres intelligibelt. Det er 
et elementært imperativ for alle pedagoger å unngå eksessiv anvendelse av 
idiomer med fremmed opprinnelse. I de fleste tilfeller eksisterer adekvate og 
relevante synonymer på norsk.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Failure while upgrading OpenIndiana

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 12:05 -0400, Gary Gendel wrote:
> I tried to upgrade with the following command:
> 
> pkg image-update --accept --be-name snv_151 --require-new-be
> 
> but it got hung.  I tried it several times with the same result:
> 
> DOWNLOAD  PKGS   FILESXFER (MB)
> mail/thunderbird/plugin/thunderbir...  206/878  2422/15133  112.6/483.4
> 
> 
> Errors were encountered while attempting to retrieve package or file 
> data for
> the requested operation.
> Details follow:
> 
> 1: Framework error: code: 28 reason: Operation too slow. Less than 1024 
> bytes/sec transfered the last 30 seconds
> URL: 
> 'http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev-il/file/1/30587f092830594caedb71f6cf028119d705da45'.
> 2: Framework error: code: 56
> URL: 
> 'http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev-il/file/1/30587f092830594caedb71f6cf028119d705da45'.
>  
> (happened 3 times)
> 
> Gary

Apparently oi's pkg repo is overloaded, as I'm trying same now and
downloadling at circa mid 90's 14k modem speeds

Yet as I just checked again it's at more reasonable 163 kBps,
interspersed with dips down into the 30's and 40's.

In any event, I have confirmation from Andrzej that Gnome's update gui
is broke and I'll let you know how things go from command line mode.

-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Alan Coopersmith]

On 05/24/11 01:44 AM, LinuxBSDos.com wrote:
> 
> At least 99.99% of all the distros ship with sudo installed, and yes, a
> few make it easy, when creating a user account, to add it to the
> administrative group (the wheel group). That, in my opinion, is how it
> should be done. That is how we all used to do it.

That's effectively what the Caiman installers do now, except that instead
of using group wheel, it's the RBAC role=root, since SVR4 never had the
wheel group.   The user created during the install should be able to use
either sudo or su as they prefer.

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Blake Irvin]

As a longtime Solaris user I don't have to be convinced that it's better in 
many ways than Linux.  But there is a reality that I've been forced to embrace 
- developers don't care.

I'm in the process right now of helping a large development team make the 
transition to a Solaris hosting solution.  I've spent hundreds of hours with my 
operations team customizing our environments so that they 'look and feel' like 
Ubuntu.

Why?  Because that's what the current crop of developers know, and it's too 
expensive to train them otherwise.

My operations team knows that Solaris is great, and we plan to use RBAC to give 
our dev users safe access to certain system features, but we don't ask the devs 
to relearn their userland.

On of Apple's great insights, IMHO, was courting developers with a OS userland 
that *felt* like Linux.  They did this for pragmatic reasons and have seen an 
explosion of new applications. Do we see this for Solaris?  No.

I love Solaris and want to see OpenIndiana and related distros thrive, so I 
suggest we give everybody what they want.

I propose an installer or configuration tool that let's a user choose either a 
'Server' (traditional Solaris) userland or a 'Compatibility' or 'Developer' 
mode (one that defaults to Linux/GNU binaries, sudo, GCC, etc).

We all laugh when we watch Ballmer's 'Developers! Developers! Developers! 
Developers!' video, but Sun went out of business almost and MS is still a 
giant.  Let's be willing to compromise in a smart way so that the OS we all 
love can reach as many users as possible.


best,
Blake

(If anyone is interested in discussing my proposal in more depth, I'd be happy 
to start a new thread or take this offline.)


sent from a Unix host smaller than my open hand.
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[OpenIndiana-discuss] Failure while upgrading OpenIndiana

[Gary Gendel]

 I tried to upgrade with the following command:

pkg image-update --accept --be-name snv_151 --require-new-be

but it got hung.  I tried it several times with the same result:

DOWNLOAD  PKGS   FILESXFER (MB)
mail/thunderbird/plugin/thunderbir...  206/878  2422/15133  112.6/483.4


Errors were encountered while attempting to retrieve package or file 
data for

the requested operation.
Details follow:

1: Framework error: code: 28 reason: Operation too slow. Less than 1024 
bytes/sec transfered the last 30 seconds
URL: 
'http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev-il/file/1/30587f092830594caedb71f6cf028119d705da45'.

2: Framework error: code: 56
URL: 
'http://pkg.openindiana.org/dev-il/file/1/30587f092830594caedb71f6cf028119d705da45'. 
(happened 3 times)


Gary


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 11:06 -0400, Dave Miner wrote:
> On 05/24/11 08:54 AM, Gary Mills wrote:
> > On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 06:26:33AM -0600, Ken Gunderson wrote:
> >> On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 09:21 +0100, Alasdair Lumsden wrote:
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> I too don't appreciate the flamewar on here of Solaris vs Linux,
> >>> sudo vs pfexec.
> >>
> >> With all due respect, I think the technical signal is high enough to
> >> qualify as relevant discussion.
> >
> > My preference would be to:
> >
> > 1. Make root a role
> > 2. Retain sudo as an option
> > 3. Find a secure way to use RBAC for system administration
> >
> 
> Not surprisingly, that's what we are trying to do, the decision that 
> prompted this sub-thread was about moving in that direction and removing 
> a security issue we'd created with the experimentation in OpenSolaris 
> releases.  RBAC. properly configured, is highly secure, but doesn't 
> provide one important thing yet: authentication of the user (using his 
> password) at the keyboard when assuming privileges.  A solution to that 
> will happen and allow us to refine what we're doing with Solaris.
> 
> Dave

Hi Dave:

Yeah, I get technical part of it.  My comments were meant to be taken in
context of sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek groan to the "just like Ubuntu"
familiarity goal, wh/upon subsequent review was made by Glenn Faden
rather than yourself.

Thanks for your time.


-- 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[LinuxBSDos.com]

> Unix-like OS cover a wide range from OI to Os X to Solaris to Linux to BSD
> to Linux and tbh I rather we chose the most portable version skill wise so
> we can easily tempt people to try OI and hopefully enjoy and see what's
> good about our favorite little bit of OS space.
>
> It's pretty obvious that Os X + Linux are where most people will come from
> if they try OI. Therefore that way of doing things should be the default.
> Its only 2 lines editing to return it to Solaris 10 way of doing things,
> which seems fair enough to me.
>
>
> Bye,
> Deano

This is the type of argument and mindset that killed innovation on the
Linux desktop. People are intelligent and we should treat them as such.
They can and will learn new stuff. They do that everyday. Doing something
(no matter how dumb it is) because that is what our target audience is
familiar with is the wrong approach.

We should strive to make things work, and work very well, even if it will
be new to our target audience. They will learn.

Start with the installer, and make it super easy to use. Automate even the
difficult steps, and give advanced users options to do things their own
way, if they feel like it. If we want to borrow ideas from others, let's
do that best on technical merit, not popularity.

At the installer level, PC-BSD has done things very well. We can borrow a
few ideas from them. It's not perfect, but it is an example of how an
installer should be. Note that PC-BSD is charting its own course, and it
seems to be doing very well. The developers are not borrowing "popular"
features.

I could go on and list all the features I wish to see on a perfect
operating system, but I do not think that is what this thread was intended
for.

Cheers,

--
Fini Decima
http://LinuxBSDos.com






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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Dave Miner]

On 05/24/11 08:54 AM, Gary Mills wrote:

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 06:26:33AM -0600, Ken Gunderson wrote:

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 09:21 +0100, Alasdair Lumsden wrote:

Hi All,

I too don't appreciate the flamewar on here of Solaris vs Linux,
sudo vs pfexec.


With all due respect, I think the technical signal is high enough to
qualify as relevant discussion.


My preference would be to:

1. Make root a role
2. Retain sudo as an option
3. Find a secure way to use RBAC for system administration



Not surprisingly, that's what we are trying to do, the decision that 
prompted this sub-thread was about moving in that direction and removing 
a security issue we'd created with the experimentation in OpenSolaris 
releases.  RBAC. properly configured, is highly secure, but doesn't 
provide one important thing yet: authentication of the user (using his 
password) at the keyboard when assuming privileges.  A solution to that 
will happen and allow us to refine what we're doing with Solaris.


Dave

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Open Indiana]

I haven't ever understood the term "SUDO". They told me it stands for "Super
User DO", but if I searched the usergroups and usernames on the OS there was
no SUPERUSER to find anywhere. 

There is basically only 1 admin or root account that can and may control the
whole OS. The way the admin is treated inside Windows vista, XP and 2008 is
IMHO very annoying. 

I AM the ADMIN and since I AM the ADMIN I do KNOW what I am doing. Don't ask
me if I really, really, really want to do this or that. If I wasn't sure
then someone made a mistake to give me the admin rights.  

IMHO if someone needs to do something that has to be done with admin rights,
he/she should log in as admin or root and act like one.
I think a lot of security things are created to prevent the user from
thinking. It is like when I want to use my cars GPS-system, it always warns
me that the roads are not completely sure and I may not watch the screen the
whole time. I really hate that American "don't sue us" policy. 

-Original Message-
From: Ken Gunderson [mailto:kgund...@teamcool.net] 
Sent: dinsdag 24 mei 2011 15:04
To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 13:33 +0100, Alasdair Lumsden wrote:
> On 24 May 2011, at 13:10, Ken Gunderson wrote:
> > Especially when that distro is loosing respect from those who actually
> > have a clue or two due to continued track record of bugs that result in
> > very unreliable platform choice for the server room.
> 
> Inflammatory and arrogant comments like this are not constructive, nor are
they welcome.
> 
> We're trying to create a friendly, open and inclusive community here.
Attacking other distributions and the users of those distributions has the
opposite affect, and will drive people away.
> 
> Please can people be mindful of the language they use on-list and realise
that list members are ambassadors for the OS.
> 
> Keep it technical, don't get personal.

I don't want to get into a tit for tat with you here but my remarks were
not intended to come off as arrogant. To clarify, my opinion of Ubuntu
is based on technical merit as result of having used it. Until incessant
bugs drove management to pony up for significantly more costly RHEL.  I
don't think it's appropriate for this list to get into the nitty gritty
technical details.

I also base my opinion on feedback from other Linux users: seasoned
administrators I have had discussion with often express similar
experiences/frustrations regarding Ubuntu.  Those who I talk with who
like it _tend_ to be lower tech and newer to Linux types.  My use of
"those who have a clue or two" to differentiate these different users
was probably less than optimal, but hopefully doesn't invalidate the
larger point I was trying to make - that copying Ubuntu simply because
it is popular with a certain subset of users should not be considered
best practice. This latter aspect was what prompted my initial comment
on the subject.  And yes, I've already allowed that I agree with the
technical/security side of the decision on this particular issue.

And to end on a positive note, I think Debian is a very nice Linux
distro.


-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Bayard Bell]

Found some further background reading from security-discuss@ for anyone looking 
for further technical background info:

http://opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=98824
http://opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=98824&tstart=210
http://opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=98729&tstart=210

On 24 May 2011, at 10:42, Bayard Bell wrote:

> On 23 May 2011, at 22:29, Jeppe Toustrup wrote:
> 
>> 2011/5/23 Ken Gunderson :
>>> On Mon, 2011-05-23 at 15:39 -0400, Alex Smith (K4RNT) wrote:
 Another related question - why have we stopped using pfexec and
 started using sudo? I preferred RBAC...
>>> 
>>> Have we?  I've been testing 148b and just assumed it was a defect.  If
>>> not, I concur with you that RBAC is preferrable to sudo.
>> 
>> The change was made upstream. See this bug report which discusses the change:
>> https://defect.opensolaris.org/bz/show_bug.cgi?id=4885
> 
> This looks to me like a comedy of analogical errors: it's not, for example, 
> that Windows users no longer have access to admin privileges, it's just that 
> asserting those privileges requires authentication. Similarly, it's not that 
> sudo is the right way to do things in general, nor is it all that important 
> that using sudo provides an affordance to people accustomed to using it 
> elsewhere. It's that pfexec doesn't have a mechanism to require 
> authentication for the assertion of particular levels of privilege, and it 
> looks like a decision was made to kick the can down the road on that. You 
> could follow the various offered analogies conclude not that access to root 
> should be mediated by sudo because that's what people expect but that people 
> rightly expect there to be an authentication requirement, in principle if not 
> in fact, between them and access to those privileges. It wouldn't be a 
> show-stopper to say that for most people's purposes, pfexec is like sudo, 
> it's just called pfexec and has a different configuration system because the 
> privileges have a different structure, if you need to edit the config files, 
> read the fine man page. The problem is a decision was made, however 
> implicitly or explicitly, not to fill in the functional gap and add 
> authentication. Instead of agreeing that pfexec needed to be like sudo in 
> this respect and making it that way, we just got sudo.
> 
> That continues to be the case because the determinative constraints haven't 
> moved an inch. I don't see the point in the subsequent Talmudic arguments 
> about references to Ubuntu, as the protracted argument doesn't add up to the 
> inconsequence of the point.
> 
>> --
>> Venlig hilsen / Kind regards
>> Jeppe Toustrup (aka. Tenzer)
>> 
>> ___
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>> http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 13:33 +0100, Alasdair Lumsden wrote:
> On 24 May 2011, at 13:10, Ken Gunderson wrote:
> > Especially when that distro is loosing respect from those who actually
> > have a clue or two due to continued track record of bugs that result in
> > very unreliable platform choice for the server room.
> 
> Inflammatory and arrogant comments like this are not constructive, nor are 
> they welcome.
> 
> We're trying to create a friendly, open and inclusive community here. 
> Attacking other distributions and the users of those distributions has the 
> opposite affect, and will drive people away.
> 
> Please can people be mindful of the language they use on-list and realise 
> that list members are ambassadors for the OS.
> 
> Keep it technical, don't get personal.

I don't want to get into a tit for tat with you here but my remarks were
not intended to come off as arrogant. To clarify, my opinion of Ubuntu
is based on technical merit as result of having used it. Until incessant
bugs drove management to pony up for significantly more costly RHEL.  I
don't think it's appropriate for this list to get into the nitty gritty
technical details.

I also base my opinion on feedback from other Linux users: seasoned
administrators I have had discussion with often express similar
experiences/frustrations regarding Ubuntu.  Those who I talk with who
like it _tend_ to be lower tech and newer to Linux types.  My use of
"those who have a clue or two" to differentiate these different users
was probably less than optimal, but hopefully doesn't invalidate the
larger point I was trying to make - that copying Ubuntu simply because
it is popular with a certain subset of users should not be considered
best practice. This latter aspect was what prompted my initial comment
on the subject.  And yes, I've already allowed that I agree with the
technical/security side of the decision on this particular issue.

And to end on a positive note, I think Debian is a very nice Linux
distro.


-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Gary Mills]

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 06:26:33AM -0600, Ken Gunderson wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 09:21 +0100, Alasdair Lumsden wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > I too don't appreciate the flamewar on here of Solaris vs Linux,
> > sudo vs pfexec.
> 
> With all due respect, I think the technical signal is high enough to
> qualify as relevant discussion.

My preference would be to:

1. Make root a role
2. Retain sudo as an option
3. Find a secure way to use RBAC for system administration

-- 
-Gary Mills--Unix Group--Computer and Network Services-

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] powernow driver

[村川 了]

Hi, Albert.

I checked my cpu with kstat. But my cpu family is 15.
Therefore I didn't use the built-in powernow function.
This means I can't use PowerNow! function on OI.

Is it right?

Ryo

On 2011/05/24, at 10:17, Albert Lee wrote:

> On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:29 PM, 村川 了  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I have been using OI b148 on ThinkPad x100e.
>> I found I have no powernow driver in OI b148.
>> Therefore CPU always run 100% and battery life is too short.
>> I want to know where powernow driver is in OI b148.
>> 
> 
> There is built-in support for PowerNow! on AMD CPU families 10h and
> later[1], so that processor is probably new enough. Did you try
> enabling CPU power management?
> 
> [1] http://blogs.oracle.com/mhaywood/entry/powernow_for_solaris
> 
> -Albert
> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Alasdair Lumsden]

On 24 May 2011, at 13:10, Ken Gunderson wrote:
> Especially when that distro is loosing respect from those who actually
> have a clue or two due to continued track record of bugs that result in
> very unreliable platform choice for the server room.

Inflammatory and arrogant comments like this are not constructive, nor are they 
welcome.

We're trying to create a friendly, open and inclusive community here. Attacking 
other distributions and the users of those distributions has the opposite 
affect, and will drive people away.

Please can people be mindful of the language they use on-list and realise that 
list members are ambassadors for the OS.

Keep it technical, don't get personal.

Regards,

Alasdair
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 09:21 +0100, Alasdair Lumsden wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I too don't appreciate the flamewar on here of Solaris vs Linux, sudo vs 
> pfexec.

With all due respect, I think the technical signal is high enough to
qualify as relevant discussion.

> If you don't like sudo, you don't have to use it. It's as simple as that.

Unless it's forced on you a'la Ubuntu.

> But bringing the default in-line with other modern-day Unixes such as MacOS 
> and most of the major Linux distributions seems entirely sane to me. People 
> expect sudo, therefore we will give them sudo. So if you don't like the 
> default, I suggest you investigate distro-constructor.

MacOS had it's heday but that day is past.  Now it's OpenIndiana's turn.
Bringing things into conformance with other modern day *nices IS valid.
Targeting Ubuntu as the role model simply because it's currently in
vogue with relatively low tech Linux newbie type users is what I took
issue with.  Decisions should be founded on technical merit.  Not that
there wasn't some technical merit in adding an authentication component.
 
> 
> RBAC/pfexec is in no way being deprecated and server administrators will be 
> advised to make use of it for obvious reasons, such as auditing. But it's 
> unreasonable to insist that users bend to fit the OS. You don't win users 
> that way. Like it or not, Solaris is a minority fringe OS these days, and if 
> we don't want to fade into obscurity further, decisions like this have to be 
> made. This is the reality we are living in. Failing to accept the reality is 
> not helpful for anyone.

True.  But I think it's also important to keep in mind _why_ Solaris
declined to fringe status.  Had Sun open sourced it 5 years sooner and
actually gotten the job done in a timely manner their employees may well
still be sporting @sun.com email addresses...




-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 16:29 +0800, Allan E. Registos wrote:
> 
> > 
> >From: "LinuxBSDos.com"  
> > 
> >How many of those distros that are not based on Ubuntu can you name? 
> > 
> >Remember that we are talking about using sudo instead of the root account 
> >system, not just having sudo installed as an application. 
> > 
> >List as many as you can and I'll still be able to prove that "most of the 
> >distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu" is a statement of fact. 
> > 
> > 
> As per *distro* I mean not derived from Ubuntu *confusion*. It is quite 
> normal that Ubuntu derivatives like Linux Mint will not change the default 
> security of Ubuntu, for improving the usability of Ubuntu is their common 
> goal. And that other *distros* like Redhat derivatives and others are not 
> using sudo the way Ubuntu does. It is not that these distros imitated 
> Ubuntu's sudo, which is quite untrue, they did not change it. I cannot find 
> any reason to call Ubuntu derivatives as *distros* that were using sudo the 
> way Ubuntu does, and then post it here, for it is obvious, those derivatives 
> did not change the default sudo implementation of Ubuntu, so what's the 
> point? 
> 
> 
> The statement of fact here is that some of us are annoyed of the most popular 
> Linux distro at distrowatch, I don't know why, for despite of its 
> shortcomings, it is useful in the desktop, am not using it on server. So to 
> make OI good on the desktop is for you to start porting those popular 
> applications in Linux rather than whining and FUD'ng against Ubuntu aside 
> from your OI admin tasks. 

The presumption that something is the best based on distrowatch listing
is a fallacy.  Ubuntu has buzz, and it's intended as seamless as
possible transition for Winblows users.  Hence, lot's of said users are
hearing about it and downloading for a test drive.  

I think OI, and indeed, all OS platform should place a higher premium on
values such as reliability, robustness, security, performant, etc.
rather than the number of downloads by relatively low tech users.
Unless your hidden FOSS agenda is to create a revenue stream by
providing support contracts to said lower tech users.


-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Gary Gendel]

On 5/24/11 8:08 AM, Ken Gunderson wrote:

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 01:11 -0700, Gary Driggs wrote:

On May 24, 2011, at 12:36 AM, "LinuxBSDos.com" wrote:


List as many as you can and I'll still be able to prove that "most of the
distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu" is a statement of fact.

OpenBSD ships with sudo and a root account accessible by anyone in the wheel 
group. Where does that fit?

As do the other *BSD's.  Ironically enough, Fedora 15 beta has now added
the wheel group requirement and calling it an "innovation".

I actually see this discussion both amusing and frustrating as I 
remember this happening on OpenSolaris years ago. As long as both are 
available and the man pages are complete and reference each other in the 
"See Also" section, I don't have an issue.  That said, there should be a 
mechanism for specifying these options during installation.  It's a 
royal pain to keep a list of "things that need to be changed" every time 
someone changes a default.


Gary


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 02:44 -0600, LinuxBSDos.com wrote:
> At least 99.99% of all the distros ship with sudo installed, and yes, a
> few make it easy, when creating a user account, to add it to the
> administrative group (the wheel group). That, in my opinion, is how it
> should be done. That is how we all used to do it.
> 
> This might seem to be off topic, but I think the point of this discussion
> is we do not have to do something simply because a popular distro does it
> that way.

+1

Especially when that distro is loosing respect from those who actually
have a clue or two due to continued track record of bugs that result in
very unreliable platform choice for the server room.

-- 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 01:11 -0700, Gary Driggs wrote:
> On May 24, 2011, at 12:36 AM, "LinuxBSDos.com" wrote:
> 
> > List as many as you can and I'll still be able to prove that "most of the
> > distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu" is a statement of fact.
> 
> OpenBSD ships with sudo and a root account accessible by anyone in the wheel 
> group. Where does that fit?

As do the other *BSD's.  Ironically enough, Fedora 15 beta has now added
the wheel group requirement and calling it an "innovation".

-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2011-05-24 at 17:28 +1000, Scott O'Brien wrote:
> Ok, enough with the troll wars.. Who cares?  It's be nice to not get spammed 
> with a million off-stopic e-mails imo
> 

I find the discussion relevant and appropriate for the list at hand. If
you don't please filter on topic and delete.  Thank you.


-- 
Ken Gunderson 


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Deano]

+1 
Unix-like OS cover a wide range from OI to Os X to Solaris to Linux to BSD
to Linux and tbh I rather we chose the most portable version skill wise so
we can easily tempt people to try OI and hopefully enjoy and see what's good
about our favorite little bit of OS space.

It's pretty obvious that Os X + Linux are where most people will come from
if they try OI. Therefore that way of doing things should be the default.
Its only 2 lines editing to return it to Solaris 10 way of doing things,
which seems fair enough to me.


Bye,
Deano

-Original Message-
From: Matt Connolly [mailto:matt.connolly...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 24 May 2011 11:38
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

On 24 May 2011 18:21, Alasdair Lumsden  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I too don't appreciate the flamewar on here of Solaris vs Linux, sudo vs
> pfexec.


> If you don't like sudo, you don't have to use it. It's as simple as that.
>
> But bringing the default in-line with other modern-day Unixes such as
MacOS
> and most of the major Linux distributions seems entirely sane to me.
People
> expect sudo, therefore we will give them sudo. So if you don't like the
> default, I suggest you investigate distro-constructor.
>

+1

I'm glad someone mentioned Mac OS here! As a Mac user, I'm familiar with
sudo, so I'll choose to it. Thank you for giving me the choice.

Is this the first post that hasn't mentioned Linux? Oh crap

-Matt
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Matt Connolly]

On 24 May 2011 18:21, Alasdair Lumsden  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I too don't appreciate the flamewar on here of Solaris vs Linux, sudo vs
> pfexec.


> If you don't like sudo, you don't have to use it. It's as simple as that.
>
> But bringing the default in-line with other modern-day Unixes such as MacOS
> and most of the major Linux distributions seems entirely sane to me. People
> expect sudo, therefore we will give them sudo. So if you don't like the
> default, I suggest you investigate distro-constructor.
>

+1

I'm glad someone mentioned Mac OS here! As a Mac user, I'm familiar with
sudo, so I'll choose to it. Thank you for giving me the choice.

Is this the first post that hasn't mentioned Linux? Oh crap

-Matt
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Bad pool....

[Jonathan Adams]

hmm, thats a weird one ... the old drive does usually stay there until
it's replaced ...

you could just try removing both the disks from the mirror, then try
re-adding the new one into the array.

PS. If you don't care about the files that are damaged in the array,
you can just "rm" them and then "scrub" the pool ...

when I had memory corruption (2Gb stick suddenly died in my machine)
and quite a few files got damaged from within some packages ... I came
to love "pkg fix"


On 24 May 2011 10:36, Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk  wrote:
> sure, two bacula backup files, I guess there isn't much to do about them, but 
> how the hell can I fix the pool?
>
>            replacing-5     DEGRADED     0     0     0
>              c4t6d0/old    OFFLINE      0     0     0
>              c4t6d0        ONLINE       0     0     0  (resilvering)
>
> This one is physically replaced, but the /old drive still sticks - it's ot 
> removed
>
> roy
>

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Bayard Bell]

On 23 May 2011, at 22:29, Jeppe Toustrup wrote:

> 2011/5/23 Ken Gunderson :
>> On Mon, 2011-05-23 at 15:39 -0400, Alex Smith (K4RNT) wrote:
>>> Another related question - why have we stopped using pfexec and
>>> started using sudo? I preferred RBAC...
>> 
>> Have we?  I've been testing 148b and just assumed it was a defect.  If
>> not, I concur with you that RBAC is preferrable to sudo.
> 
> The change was made upstream. See this bug report which discusses the change:
> https://defect.opensolaris.org/bz/show_bug.cgi?id=4885

This looks to me like a comedy of analogical errors: it's not, for example, 
that Windows users no longer have access to admin privileges, it's just that 
asserting those privileges requires authentication. Similarly, it's not that 
sudo is the right way to do things in general, nor is it all that important 
that using sudo provides an affordance to people accustomed to using it 
elsewhere. It's that pfexec doesn't have a mechanism to require authentication 
for the assertion of particular levels of privilege, and it looks like a 
decision was made to kick the can down the road on that. You could follow the 
various offered analogies conclude not that access to root should be mediated 
by sudo because that's what people expect but that people rightly expect there 
to be an authentication requirement, in principle if not in fact, between them 
and access to those privileges. It wouldn't be a show-stopper to say that for 
most people's purposes, pfexec is like sudo, it's just called pfexec and has a 
different configuration system because the privileges have a different 
structure, if you need to edit the config files, read the fine man page. The 
problem is a decision was made, however implicitly or explicitly, not to fill 
in the functional gap and add authentication. Instead of agreeing that pfexec 
needed to be like sudo in this respect and making it that way, we just got sudo.

That continues to be the case because the determinative constraints haven't 
moved an inch. I don't see the point in the subsequent Talmudic arguments about 
references to Ubuntu, as the protracted argument doesn't add up to the 
inconsequence of the point.

> --
> Venlig hilsen / Kind regards
> Jeppe Toustrup (aka. Tenzer)
> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Bad pool....

[Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk]

sure, two bacula backup files, I guess there isn't much to do about them, but 
how the hell can I fix the pool?

replacing-5 DEGRADED 0 0 0
  c4t6d0/oldOFFLINE  0 0 0
  c4t6d0ONLINE   0 0 0  (resilvering)

This one is physically replaced, but the /old drive still sticks - it's ot 
removed

roy

- Original Message -
> what do you get from a "zpool status -v"?
> 
> do you know which files are corrupted?
> 
> On 23 May 2011 19:27, Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk  wrote:
> > Hi all
> >
> > I have a rather large pool that has been a bit troublesome. We've
> > lost some drives (WD Black), and though that should work out well, I
> > now have a pool that doesn't look too healthy.
> >
> > http://paste.ubuntu.com/611973/
> >
> > Two drives have been resilvered, but the old drives still stick. The
> > drive that has died still hasn't been taken over by a spare,
> > although the two spares show up as AVAIL.
> >
> > Anyone that know how I can fix this?
> >
> > roy
> > --
> 
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-- 
Vennlige hilsener / Best regards

roy
--
Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk
(+47) 97542685
r...@karlsbakk.net
http://blogg.karlsbakk.net/
--
I all pedagogikk er det essensielt at pensum presenteres intelligibelt. Det er 
et elementært imperativ for alle pedagoger å unngå eksessiv anvendelse av 
idiomer med fremmed opprinnelse. I de fleste tilfeller eksisterer adekvate og 
relevante synonymer på norsk.

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Bad pool....

[Jonathan Adams]

what do you get from a "zpool status -v"?

do you know which files are corrupted?

On 23 May 2011 19:27, Roy Sigurd Karlsbakk  wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I have a rather large pool that has been a bit troublesome. We've lost some 
> drives (WD Black), and though that should work out well, I now have a pool 
> that doesn't look too healthy.
>
> http://paste.ubuntu.com/611973/
>
> Two drives have been resilvered, but the old drives still stick. The drive 
> that has died still hasn't been taken over by a spare, although the two 
> spares show up as AVAIL.
>
> Anyone that know how I can fix this?
>
> roy
> --

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[LinuxBSDos.com]

At least 99.99% of all the distros ship with sudo installed, and yes, a
few make it easy, when creating a user account, to add it to the
administrative group (the wheel group). That, in my opinion, is how it
should be done. That is how we all used to do it.

This might seem to be off topic, but I think the point of this discussion
is we do not have to do something simply because a popular distro does it
that way.


--
Fini Decima
http://LinuxBSDos.com




> On May 24, 2011, at 12:36 AM, "LinuxBSDos.com" wrote:
>
>> List as many as you can and I'll still be able to prove that "most of
>> the
>> distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu" is a statement of fact.
>
> OpenBSD ships with sudo and a root account accessible by anyone in the
> wheel group. Where does that fit?
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Alasdair Lumsden]

Hi All,

I too don't appreciate the flamewar on here of Solaris vs Linux, sudo vs pfexec.

If you don't like sudo, you don't have to use it. It's as simple as that.

But bringing the default in-line with other modern-day Unixes such as MacOS and 
most of the major Linux distributions seems entirely sane to me. People expect 
sudo, therefore we will give them sudo. So if you don't like the default, I 
suggest you investigate distro-constructor.

RBAC/pfexec is in no way being deprecated and server administrators will be 
advised to make use of it for obvious reasons, such as auditing. But it's 
unreasonable to insist that users bend to fit the OS. You don't win users that 
way. Like it or not, Solaris is a minority fringe OS these days, and if we 
don't want to fade into obscurity further, decisions like this have to be made. 
This is the reality we are living in. Failing to accept the reality is not 
helpful for anyone.

Regards,

Alasdair



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Allan E. Registos]

> 
>From: "LinuxBSDos.com"  
> 
>How many of those distros that are not based on Ubuntu can you name? 
> 
>Remember that we are talking about using sudo instead of the root account 
>system, not just having sudo installed as an application. 
> 
>List as many as you can and I'll still be able to prove that "most of the 
>distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu" is a statement of fact. 
> 
> 
As per *distro* I mean not derived from Ubuntu *confusion*. It is quite normal 
that Ubuntu derivatives like Linux Mint will not change the default security of 
Ubuntu, for improving the usability of Ubuntu is their common goal. And that 
other *distros* like Redhat derivatives and others are not using sudo the way 
Ubuntu does. It is not that these distros imitated Ubuntu's sudo, which is 
quite untrue, they did not change it. I cannot find any reason to call Ubuntu 
derivatives as *distros* that were using sudo the way Ubuntu does, and then 
post it here, for it is obvious, those derivatives did not change the default 
sudo implementation of Ubuntu, so what's the point? 


The statement of fact here is that some of us are annoyed of the most popular 
Linux distro at distrowatch, I don't know why, for despite of its shortcomings, 
it is useful in the desktop, am not using it on server. So to make OI good on 
the desktop is for you to start porting those popular applications in Linux 
rather than whining and FUD'ng against Ubuntu aside from your OI admin tasks. 


Regards, 
Allan 








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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Christopher Chan]

On Tuesday, May 24, 2011 04:11 PM, Gary Driggs wrote:

On May 24, 2011, at 12:36 AM, "LinuxBSDos.com" wrote:


List as many as you can and I'll still be able to prove that "most of the
distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu" is a statement of fact.


OpenBSD ships with sudo and a root account accessible by anyone in the wheel 
group. Where does that fit?


Security done right? :-D

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Gary Driggs]

On May 24, 2011, at 12:36 AM, "LinuxBSDos.com" wrote:

> List as many as you can and I'll still be able to prove that "most of the
> distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu" is a statement of fact.

OpenBSD ships with sudo and a root account accessible by anyone in the wheel 
group. Where does that fit?
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[LinuxBSDos.com]

How many of those distros that are not based on Ubuntu can you name?

Remember that we are talking about using sudo instead of the root account
system, not just having sudo installed as an application.

List as many as you can and I'll still be able to prove that "most of the
distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu" is a statement of fact.


--
Fini Decima
http://LinuxBSDos.com




>
>
>> > > - Original Message -
>>From: "LinuxBSDos.com" 
>>To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana"
>> 
>>Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:06:49 PM
>>Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?
>>
>>
>> As an application, sudo pre-dates Ubuntu, but it is true that Ubuntu
>>started this madness of replacing the root account system with sudo. It
>> is
>>also true that most of the distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu.
>>
>>
> You mean, Ubuntu derivatives like Linux Mint? Otherwise, *most of the
> distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu* is incorrect.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Scott O'Brien]

Ok, enough with the troll wars.. Who cares?  It's be nice to not get spammed 
with a million off-stopic e-mails imo


On 24/05/2011, at 5:26 PM, Allan E. Registos wrote:

> 
> 
 - Original Message -
>> From: "LinuxBSDos.com"  
>> To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana"  
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:06:49 PM 
>> Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info? 
>> 
>> 
>> As an application, sudo pre-dates Ubuntu, but it is true that Ubuntu 
>> started this madness of replacing the root account system with sudo. It is 
>> also true that most of the distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu. 
>> 
>> 
> You mean, Ubuntu derivatives like Linux Mint? Otherwise, *most of the distros 
> using sudo are derived from Ubuntu* is incorrect. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[Allan E. Registos]

> > > - Original Message -
>From: "LinuxBSDos.com"  
>To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana"  
>Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:06:49 PM 
>Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info? 
> 
> 
> As an application, sudo pre-dates Ubuntu, but it is true that Ubuntu 
>started this madness of replacing the root account system with sudo. It is 
>also true that most of the distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu. 
> 
> 
You mean, Ubuntu derivatives like Linux Mint? Otherwise, *most of the distros 
using sudo are derived from Ubuntu* is incorrect. 






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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Update info?

[LinuxBSDos.com]

As an application, sudo pre-dates Ubuntu, but it is true that Ubuntu
started this madness of replacing the root account system with sudo. It is
also true that most of the distros using sudo are derived from Ubuntu.

As far as I know, Redhat has never used sudo, but sudo has been available
as an application with which admins gave limited admin rights to others. A
few Linux distros now offer the option of sudo or the root account system
during installation. And I always choose the root account system. Nobody
has been able to convince me that sudo is better, because it is not.

Making a case for using sudo because it is used by a popular Linux distro
reminds me of the mistake that Linux developers made when Linux was just
starting to gather attention. Virtually every dump feature was copied from
Windows because "the users we are targeting will be coming from Windows."

So the KDE guys made every attempt to copy the "look and feel" of Windows.
The result was that innovation on the (Linux) desktop died. why innovate
when all you want to do is copy what the other guy is doing. This is why
the desktop is in a pathetic state.

Things are looking better, but you can still see the same mistakes in
other areas.

Cheers,

--
Fini Decima
http://LinuxBSDos.com





> The most admin friendly distro I ever used was called opensolaris...
>
> This kind of discussions discusion has to do with taste, educating your
> taste involves learning to enjoy the differences, there is no point in
> making everithing to taste the same.
>
> Br
> gab
>
>
> On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 7:26 AM, Sean O'Brien
> wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Well, yeah, all the other 'sudo for admin model' using distros are
>> > probably Ubuntu derived...
>>
>>
>> No, not at all. 'sudo' has been used in RedHat since v7 at least, and
>> has
>> been in every single distribution of Linux I have ever used since. It's
>> much
>> older than Ubuntu. Please, please stop whining about user-friendliness.
>> It
>> is about the only thing that any open-source project, including this
>> one,
>> could actually use more of. Your fanboyish and ignorant FUD is something
>> that we do not need.
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