Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Judah Richardson]

I'm on the rolling release, but pkg upgrade -v - r updates the OS & OI repo
packages and also creates a rollback BE.

As to how one moves between ISO releases, I have no idea. However, I've
found the rolling release sufficiently stable for my purposes anyway.

On Sat, May 1, 2021, 17:32 Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss <
openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org> wrote:

> I tried a text-install of 2021.04.30  into an existing 2020.10.31 pool,
> but the user information didn't propagate to the new BE.  Is this a bug,
> install mistake or the wrong way to update?
>
> All the stuff I found on the wiki was quite old.  Nothing discussed
> updates from one Hipster release to the next.   Particularly bothersome was
> the "uninstall a bunch of packages" part.  Everything I read appeared to
> apply to the situation 7-8 years ago.
>
> I'd like to create a BE for each release so I can revert back if needed.
> I'd also like to update from the ISO image in order to stay in sync with it.
>
> A corollary question is does a "stable" branch exist?  From the wiki:
>
> "Hipster is a rapid development branch where software versions are
> frequently updated. While every package is tested to ensure stability,
> caution is nevertheless warranted when deploying Hipster into mission
> critical production environments."
>
> i gather that there are people running OI in a  production environment as
> opposed to my single user home environment.  How do you address the issue?
>
> Reg
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Alan Coopersmith]

On 5/1/21 3:31 PM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:

I tried a text-install of 2021.04.30  into an existing 2020.10.31 pool, but the 
user information didn't propagate to the new BE.  Is this a bug, install 
mistake or the wrong way to update?


The wrong way to update.  Install media is for fresh installs only.
Updates are done via "pkg update".

--
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 Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss]

 
So if I do a "pkg update" after each ISO release I should track the ISOs?

How do I ensure that I pick up new packages in an ISO? Do I specify a tag? It 
seems unlikely that the package list would be immutable.

Reg

 On Saturday, May 1, 2021, 05:52:51 PM CDT, Alan Coopersmith 
 wrote:  
 
 On 5/1/21 3:31 PM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:
> I tried a text-install of 2021.04.30  into an existing 2020.10.31 pool, but 
> the user information didn't propagate to the new BE.  Is this a bug, install 
> mistake or the wrong way to update?

The wrong way to update.  Install media is for fresh installs only.
Updates are done via "pkg update".

-- 
    -Alan Coopersmith-              alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
    Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc
  
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Till Wegmueller]

Hi Reg

Hipster is a Rolling release model meaning updates land directly in the 
package repositories for each package.


ISO "Releases" are simply there to mark a point where we look back onto 
the last 6 months and can actually see how much has moved. And it's the 
point we want to make it as stable as possible so that new people can 
install it from the snapshot medias. Historically it was also a point, 
where we could snapshot the Repo so people could jump between 
publishers, but that has changed.


-Till

On 01.05.21 20:05, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:
  
So if I do a "pkg update" after each ISO release I should track the ISOs?


How do I ensure that I pick up new packages in an ISO? Do I specify a tag? It 
seems unlikely that the package list would be immutable.

Reg

  On Saturday, May 1, 2021, 05:52:51 PM CDT, Alan Coopersmith 
 wrote:
  
  On 5/1/21 3:31 PM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:

I tried a text-install of 2021.04.30  into an existing 2020.10.31 pool, but the 
user information didn't propagate to the new BE.  Is this a bug, install 
mistake or the wrong way to update?


The wrong way to update.  Install media is for fresh installs only.
Updates are done via "pkg update".



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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss]

 
Gparted(1m) on the Live Image worked at one time. Now it does not. But it's 
still there despite my raising an issue and the triviality of simply removing 
it from the Desktop. I don't recall if the "Getting Started" document 
referenced in the GUI installer was ever there. I'd have to boot disks going 
back to oi151_a5 to see. The wiki documentation with respect to updates from 
version to version is hopelessly out of date.

The OI installs are for the most part better than *BSD, *Linux and even Oracle 
Solaris. I maintain a system on which I can test OS installs on old HDDs. 
Periodically I'll get curious about the state of some OS distro and do an 
install, fool around for a while and then label the disk with what's installed 
and put in the rack I made to hold them all. I've got 2 dozen IDE drive in 
caddies. I don't have a count on SATA drives. I've not been able to find 
inexpensive and good quality caddies for those. So I keep those in anti-static 
bags in the shipping boxes. Less convenient to count.

If potential new users have the sort of problems Michelle and I encountered 
they are not likely to become members of the OI user community. The size of 
that community determines the size of the developer community. Only a small 
fraction of users have the time, skills and motivation to take on 
development/maintenance work.

My personal preference is for "all known bugs fixed" release points. If someone 
wants to track changes more often then the "pkg update" mechanism provides that.

Solaris was created to merge Sys V and BSD. So everyone else created OSF/1, 
though only DEC shipped it. At this point Sys V and BSD compatibility is moot. 
Sun was the last vendor standing, but not for much longer. Sys V only lives on 
in Solaris and Illumos so far as I know.

ZFS was at one time a compelling reason to stick with OI, but that's no longer 
the case. It's actually now better documented in FreeBSD.

Reg

 On Saturday, May 1, 2021, 06:45:55 PM CDT, Till Wegmueller 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Reg

Hipster is a Rolling release model meaning updates land directly in the 
package repositories for each package.

ISO "Releases" are simply there to mark a point where we look back onto 
the last 6 months and can actually see how much has moved. And it's the 
point we want to make it as stable as possible so that new people can 
install it from the snapshot medias. Historically it was also a point, 
where we could snapshot the Repo so people could jump between 
publishers, but that has changed.

-Till

On 01.05.21 20:05, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:
>  
> So if I do a "pkg update" after each ISO release I should track the ISOs?
> 
> How do I ensure that I pick up new packages in an ISO? Do I specify a tag? It 
> seems unlikely that the package list would be immutable.
> 
> Reg
> 
>      On Saturday, May 1, 2021, 05:52:51 PM CDT, Alan Coopersmith 
> wrote:
>  
>  On 5/1/21 3:31 PM, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:
>> I tried a text-install of 2021.04.30  into an existing 2020.10.31 pool, but 
>> the user information didn't propagate to the new BE.  Is this a bug, install 
>> mistake or the wrong way to update?
> 
> The wrong way to update.  Install media is for fresh installs only.
> Updates are done via "pkg update".
> 

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Sun, 2 May 2021, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:


My personal preference is for "all known bugs fixed" release points. 
If someone wants to track changes more often then the "pkg update" 
mechanism provides that.


The "all known bugs fixed" release points are not even remotely 
possible given the rolling build/release model.  The release is just a 
snapshot in time.  Even major Linux distributions and FreeBSD are not 
able to accomplish what you describe.  The internal processes that Sun 
used to internally test and "bake" a release for a couple of years are 
not possible.


Solaris was created to merge Sys V and BSD. So everyone else created 
OSF/1, though only DEC shipped it. At this point Sys V and BSD 
compatibility is moot. Sun was the last vendor standing, but not for 
much longer. Sys V only lives on in Solaris and Illumos so far as I 
know.


Linux was a functional clone of SunOS/Solaris for quite a long time. 
It is only relatively recently that it is not, given transitions to 
things like 'udev'/'systemd', and trying to get rid of X11.


ZFS was at one time a compelling reason to stick with OI, but that's 
no longer the case. It's actually now better documented in FreeBSD.


Perhaps you are talking about the FreeBSD Handbook rather than the 
software implementation.  I am not encountering any issues with the OI 
manual pages or the software.  The OI Wiki is another story 
altogether.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
Public Key, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/public-key.txt

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Judah Richardson]

On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 7:42 PM Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss <
openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org> wrote:

>
> Gparted(1m) on the Live Image worked at one time. Now it does not. But
> it's still there despite my raising an issue and the triviality of simply
> removing it from the Desktop. I don't recall if the "Getting Started"
> document referenced in the GUI installer was ever there. I'd have to boot
> disks going back to oi151_a5 to see. The wiki documentation with respect to
> updates from version to version is hopelessly out of date.
>
Most likely because OI is now a rolling release (or at least that's the
paradigm development supports the most). The previous documentation is
still there for folks who want to run older versions.

>
> The OI installs are for the most part better than *BSD, *Linux and even
> Oracle Solaris. I maintain a system on which I can test OS installs on old
> HDDs. Periodically I'll get curious about the state of some OS distro and
> do an install, fool around for a while and then label the disk with what's
> installed and put in the rack I made to hold them all. I've got 2 dozen IDE
> drive in caddies. I don't have a count on SATA drives. I've not been able
> to find inexpensive and good quality caddies for those. So I keep those in
> anti-static bags in the shipping boxes. Less convenient to count.
>
> If potential new users have the sort of problems Michelle and I encountered

With all OSes, good ideas are to 1) start simple (i.e. with a mainstream
installation and default settings) 2) don't fight the distribution's
paradigm. Don't try to make the distribution something it's not 3) try to
play within the limits of what's well supported. If you need something
beyond that, use a different OS that does that thing better 4) when you're
frustrated, take a break and work on something easier. This break may last
for months or longer.

they are not likely to become members of the OI user community.

I'd call myself a counterexample to that. OI was the most difficult desktop
installation I've ever attempted, and initial stability was terrible. I
documented my installation process & doubled the RAM, and neither issue has
been a problem since.

The size of that community determines the size of the developer community.
> Only a small fraction of users have the time, skills and motivation to take
> on development/maintenance work.
>
I agree with this. But I also do think OI does a better job as far as
user-facing DE integration than FreeBSD.

>
> My personal preference is for "all known bugs fixed" release points.

Comment specific to OI: OI is a rolling release. Treating it like a gold
release OS is fighting the paradigm as I mentioned above.

General comment: current gen OSes are so complex and the pace of
development is so rapid that "gold" releases no longer exist. In addition
to OI, I also run FreeBSD, Debian, Windows 10, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, and
3 Android distributions. They all have bugs and problems, ranging from the
annoying (Google Android's AOD showing temperature in Fahrenheit despite
Celsius being selected in the Settings) to the infuriating (a simple
shutdown and startup killing FreeBSD DHCP client functionality.)

If someone wants to track changes more often then the "pkg update"
> mechanism provides that.
>
Yes. OI pkg update is also - IMO - incredibly robust for what it does on a
rolling release compared to the same on FreeBSD using the pkg latest repos.

>
> Solaris was created to merge Sys V and BSD. So everyone else created
> OSF/1, though only DEC shipped it. At this point Sys V and BSD
> compatibility is moot. Sun was the last vendor standing, but not for much
> longer. Sys V only lives on in Solaris and Illumos so far as I know.
>
Speaking personally, I run different OSes because I like to see different
approaches to the same challenges and also like to be able to speak about
them from firsthand experience ... not because I view a certain
technology/paradigm as a sacred religious artifact.

>
> ZFS was at one time a compelling reason to stick with OI, but that's no
> longer the case.

If you want an open source Unix as opposed to something Unix-like, I do
think Illumos is the easiest way to scratch that itch. If you also want an
integrated DE, then OI is your ticket (this is why I run it.)

It's actually now better documented in FreeBSD.
>
Both OI and FreeBSD use the same OpenZFS upstream so the documentation
specific to ZFS for one works for both ;) I've also found Oracle Solaris
11.4's documentation to work pretty well for my OI ZFS needs since
thankfully OpenZFS and Oracle Solaris ZFS function very similarly to each
other.

I'm often frustrated with OI too, though I don't talk a whole lot about it
because 99% of the time I can work around the issue using another OS on a
different machine. I don't subscribe to the view as many people seem to
that there is One True OS out there that does everything I want. I just use
the best (or often easiest) to

Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Bob Friesenhahn]

On Sun, 2 May 2021, Judah Richardson wrote:



Both OI and FreeBSD use the same OpenZFS upstream so the documentation
specific to ZFS for one works for both ;) I've also found Oracle Solaris


The above statement is no longer actually true.  OpenZFS is no longer 
"based" on the Illumos implementation and FreeBSD 13 is re-based on 
OpenZFS which was itself essentially re-based on ZFS on Linux (ZOL). 
This definitely benefits FreeBSD 13 since it is unshackled from 
Illumos shims and assumptions.


So now Illumos selectively pulls in interesting improvements from 
OpenZFS but OpenZFS has diverged.


Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
Public Key, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/public-key.txt

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Alan Coopersmith]

On 5/2/21 6:35 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

On Sun, 2 May 2021, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:


My personal preference is for "all known bugs fixed" release points. If 
someone wants to track changes more often then the "pkg update" mechanism 
provides that.


The "all known bugs fixed" release points are not even remotely possible given 
the rolling build/release model.  The release is just a snapshot in time.  Even 
major Linux distributions and FreeBSD are not able to accomplish what you 
describe.  The internal processes that Sun used to internally test and "bake" a 
release for a couple of years are not possible.


Even those never produced a "all known bugs fixed" release - just a "all bugs
considered to be showstoppers for the release" fixed.  I doubt there has been
any "all known bugs fixed" release of a significant operating system in many
decades - there's just so many things that can break that you have to have a
cutoff point to determine what's truly going to hold up your release and what
you can accept and leave until later.  (And later may never come - there are
some bugs that lingered for decades in Sun's bug tracker, never getting fixed
or closed, and I'm sure the same is true in Linux & BSD distros as well.)

--
-Alan Coopersmith-   alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Engineering - https://blogs.oracle.com/alanc

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Judah Richardson]

On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:44 AM Bob Friesenhahn 
wrote:

> On Sun, 2 May 2021, Judah Richardson wrote:
> >>
> > Both OI and FreeBSD use the same OpenZFS upstream so the documentation
> > specific to ZFS for one works for both ;) I've also found Oracle Solaris
>
> The above statement is no longer actually true.  OpenZFS is no longer
> "based" on the Illumos implementation and FreeBSD 13 is re-based on
> OpenZFS which was itself essentially re-based on ZFS on Linux (ZOL).
> This definitely benefits FreeBSD 13 since it is unshackled from
> Illumos shims and assumptions.
>
> So now Illumos selectively pulls in interesting improvements from
> OpenZFS but OpenZFS has diverged.
>
It seems every time I see this topic comes up in forums across the
internet, I read a different explanation of what's going on.

See slide 13 (titled "OpenZFS Code Flow (2020)" from the 2019 OpenZFS
DevSummit keynote

for what I'm referring to. I think I see your point: FreeBSD's ZFS
implementation isn't downstream of OpenZFS, it *is *OpenZFS. Illumos'
implementation, however, is downstream thereof. Or at least that's how I
interpret that diagram.

That said, I have noticed the absence of any Illumos mention in the 2020
Summit keynote
,
so there's that.

FWIW I strongly agree with you and Alan's take on the "all bugs fixed"
concept.

>
> Bob
> --
> Bob Friesenhahn
> bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
> Public Key, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/public-key.txt
>
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Till Wegmueller]

I do see the Argo Technologies (DilOS) people in the Sponsors and Josh 
in the Print screen of the Youtube. But no mention by name. But it's 
2020 who knows what Happened :)


What I known from first hand reports of the Leadership Calls, Illumos 
wants to do the migration ton OpenZFS too but it's a lot of work and 
somebody needs to start it.


-Till

On 02.05.21 12:04, Judah Richardson wrote:

On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:44 AM Bob Friesenhahn 
wrote:


On Sun, 2 May 2021, Judah Richardson wrote:



Both OI and FreeBSD use the same OpenZFS upstream so the documentation
specific to ZFS for one works for both ;) I've also found Oracle Solaris


The above statement is no longer actually true.  OpenZFS is no longer
"based" on the Illumos implementation and FreeBSD 13 is re-based on
OpenZFS which was itself essentially re-based on ZFS on Linux (ZOL).
This definitely benefits FreeBSD 13 since it is unshackled from
Illumos shims and assumptions.

So now Illumos selectively pulls in interesting improvements from
OpenZFS but OpenZFS has diverged.


It seems every time I see this topic comes up in forums across the
internet, I read a different explanation of what's going on.

See slide 13 (titled "OpenZFS Code Flow (2020)" from the 2019 OpenZFS
DevSummit keynote

for what I'm referring to. I think I see your point: FreeBSD's ZFS
implementation isn't downstream of OpenZFS, it *is *OpenZFS. Illumos'
implementation, however, is downstream thereof. Or at least that's how I
interpret that diagram.

That said, I have noticed the absence of any Illumos mention in the 2020
Summit keynote
,
so there's that.

FWIW I strongly agree with you and Alan's take on the "all bugs fixed"
concept.



Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
Public Key, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/public-key.txt

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[John D Groenveld]

In message , Bob 
Friesenhahn writes:
>Perhaps you are talking about the FreeBSD Handbook rather than the 
>software implementation.  I am not encountering any issues with the OI 
>manual pages or the software.  The OI Wiki is another story 
>altogether.

The OI Handbook is making good progress towards the quality of
FreeBSD's Handbook.
PRs are easy and welcome.

John
groenv...@acm.org

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss]

 
The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System
McKusick, Neville-Neil & Watson
Addison-Wesley 2015 2nd ed

Chapter 10: The Zettabyte Filesystem

It's only 26 pages, but it's the only description of the internals of ZFS I've 
been able to find.

The FreeBSD Mastery books on ZFS by Lucas and Jude provide more information 
about the commands and the implications of various settings. 

McKusick said that finding information about ZFS outside of the source was 
difficult. Lucas and Jude was the only other material in print he knew of. I'm 
hoping he might decide to write a book about it with some of the developers of 
ZFS as coauthors.

Reg On Sunday, May 2, 2021, 04:14:12 PM CDT, John D Groenveld 
 wrote:  
 
 In message , Bob 
Friesenhahn writes:
>Perhaps you are talking about the FreeBSD Handbook rather than the 
>software implementation.  I am not encountering any issues with the OI 
>manual pages or the software.  The OI Wiki is another story 
>altogether.

The OI Handbook is making good progress towards the quality of
FreeBSD's Handbook.
PRs are easy and welcome.

John
groenv...@acm.org

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Till Wegmueller]

Hey Reg

Lucas and Jude are ZFS Authors. On FreeBSD, but we have patches with 
their name in illumos these days.


In general the book applies to both ZFS version, excluding things like 
draid. But We don't want divergence. The Plan to migrate to that ZFS 
repo is still going.



-Till

On 02.05.21 18:55, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:
  
The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System

McKusick, Neville-Neil & Watson
Addison-Wesley 2015 2nd ed

Chapter 10: The Zettabyte Filesystem

It's only 26 pages, but it's the only description of the internals of ZFS I've 
been able to find.

The FreeBSD Mastery books on ZFS by Lucas and Jude provide more information 
about the commands and the implications of various settings.

McKusick said that finding information about ZFS outside of the source was 
difficult. Lucas and Jude was the only other material in print he knew of. I'm 
hoping he might decide to write a book about it with some of the developers of 
ZFS as coauthors.

Reg On Sunday, May 2, 2021, 04:14:12 PM CDT, John D Groenveld 
 wrote:
  
  In message , Bob

Friesenhahn writes:

Perhaps you are talking about the FreeBSD Handbook rather than the
software implementation.  I am not encountering any issues with the OI
manual pages or the software.  The OI Wiki is another story
altogether.


The OI Handbook is making good progress towards the quality of
FreeBSD's Handbook.
PRs are easy and welcome.

John
groenv...@acm.org

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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Udo Grabowski (IMK)]

On 02.05.21 23:55, Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss wrote:

...
It's only 26 pages, but it's the only description of the internals of ZFS I've 
been able to find.

> ...

Some older references with a practical approach to the internals:

Leall's Blog:


Max Bruning's slides:



The Sun on-disk specification:


ZFS Under the Hood:


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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss]

 Alan is, of course, correct. You can't have *all* of them fixed in a code base 
as large as a modern OS. But you can fix the important stuff. And what a 
prospective user experiences when they boot the Live Image and attempt an 
install is critical.

When experienced people have major problems doing an install there is something 
seriously wrong. The only thing that kept me going for 50 hours was that I had 
never in 35 years lost a battle with a computer. And I was not going to 
concede. I came very close though to returning the Z840. But before I did that 
I was going to give it one more try and that uncovered the issue. The device 
configuration had not been saved and it did not have /reconfigure present when 
it began to reboot.

Most important of all is a concerted effort *by the user community* to test and 
review a release to ensure that glaring problems are fixed so that a 
prospective new user has a good experience and favorable impression. For a wide 
range of reasons testing a release candidate is not something the developers 
can meaningfully do. It *must* be the users.

Reg



On Sunday, May 2, 2021, 10:05:43 AM CDT, Judah Richardson 
 wrote:


FWIW I strongly agree with you and Alan's take on the "all bugs fixed"
concept.
  
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Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] Recommended way to migrate to a new release?

[Judah Richardson]

On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 8:21 AM Reginald Beardsley via openindiana-discuss <
openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org> wrote:

>  Alan is, of course, correct. You can't have *all* of them fixed in a code
> base as large as a modern OS. But you can fix the important stuff. And what
> a prospective user experiences when they boot the Live Image and attempt an
> install is critical.
>
> When experienced people have major problems doing an install there is
> something seriously wrong. The only thing that kept me going for 50 hours
> was that I had never in 35 years lost a battle with a computer.

I've had stuff refuse to install or boot before. The 1st time I tried
GhostBSD I couldn't get it to boot. So I installed Project Trident instead.
When Trident rebased to Void Linux, I tried GhostBSD again and this time it
installed and booted just fine. I ran it until FuryBSD emerged, which I
then migrated to. Sometimes you just have to walk away and circle back
later. Sometimes *much* later.

And I was not going to concede. I came very close though to returning the
> Z840. But before I did that I was going to give it one more try and that
> uncovered the issue. The device configuration had not been saved and it did
> not have /reconfigure present when it began to reboot.
>
> Most important of all is a concerted effort *by the user community*

I'm personally limited by my days having only 24 hours ;) Yours may have
more.

to test and review a release

Everyone who runs Hipster and does pkg update is running a rolling release,
which is testing and reviewing by definition. If you're asking people at
large to continually build and install ISO images ... that's not a
practical request for most people.

to ensure that glaring problems are fixed so that a prospective new user
> has a good experience and favorable impression.

Most people aren't personally invested in/ambassadors for the OSes they
run, nor are they required to be.

For a wide range of reasons testing a release candidate is not something
> the developers can meaningfully do. It *must* be the users.
>
> Reg
>
>
>
> On Sunday, May 2, 2021, 10:05:43 AM CDT, Judah Richardson <
> judahrichard...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> FWIW I strongly agree with you and Alan's take on the "all bugs fixed"
> concept.
>
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> openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
> https://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
>
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