Re: [osol-discuss] thanks to all who helped choochoo with OSOL & message to Oracle/ Sun
Edward Ned Harvey wrote: "Windows as an apache server" You may have been using that as a quasi-made-up example, but the truth is I've make a lot of nickels doing exactly that. I don't care what people want to run anymore. If it's the most awful choice on the earth, I'll take it as a fun challenge to try to make it work. Apache on Windows works ok within bounds. Meaning, it runs, and I can make it work long enough to keep people from screaming too much. Only crack-addled companies do it, but there's more of them around than you'd ever dream. Tim -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] thanks to all who helped choochoo with OSOL & message to Oracle/ Sun
Edward Ned Harvey said: "I don't think most people (oracle especially) are interested in solaris/opensolaris replacing the home user/end user operating system." Corporate user says/thinks "But if this one doesn't run on my laptop, why should I expect it to run on my servers?? This other one I know runs on both my laptop, (or anyway the IT guys, and he has the same model as I do) and on the servers too. Which one will risk my job, and my companies stuff more?" The choice in their mind is obvious. I have seen these sort of mental metrics literally _tens_of_hundreds_ of times (sadly), and they'll beat price nearly every single time. In fact this is the core factor that made me abandon being an internal advocate for Solaris/Sun in most cases. All Redhat or Cannonical has to say is "well this is the safer choice" and boom, Sun's out of the `real' running in any `competition' for a sale. I finally figured out the safer choice for my job was to go 'yea I can make that work', instead of 'yea I can make that work, but this is a better choice'. One non-existent driver later, or other really stupid problem, and poof, it's Linux and `we're moving in another direction Tim, and...'. So ya know, screw that noise. I'll flail with Linux all day long and fill out my trouble tickets and keep my job rather than have the pointer on the wheel of blame fall on my tiny slice of the pie. I know Oracle doesn't want to hear that truth. In fact, I REALLY know they don't want to hear it. That's the ugly truth though, and no amount of "yes but" will change that. You'd think they would be first to the gate with understanding that aspect of external competition, but that would force them to look at their own internal culture of backstabbary. They aren't willing to do that, so ergo, they piss off their customers & fail in the wider market. In fact the strategy I use now is "doubter". "Are you sure you want to do this? I know I can make it run great, and *I* like it, but do you really want to take that on? It does this, that and whoa look this too, but gosh I don't know, everyone's more comfortable with here it seems like. I know that's not innovative like you want, and the costs are more with the other choice, but I'm not sure this is really what you want" etc. Being an advocate has cost me money & jobs. Now, that's the sales slimes job. Not mine. If the code & company can't make the sale, I'll just as happily support Apache on Windows, and do a good job at it too. Because my job is more important than a piece of lint on a poker chip in Larry's game of `how greedy can I be and get away with it?'. Mirrors are kind of a biyatch when you don't want to look in them. When people tell me they're considering buying Oracle's DB's, and ask if I can support them as an admin I say 2 things. The first is "I'm not a DBA, do you have a DBA in mind that can do that job? Because I'm not that person." The second is "Well, ok, that's fine, and I can do a really good job at it too, I've done it here, here, here, here, and here (x4 to make the point I could keep going on...), but you do not get to blame me if there are problems with it, or what you want to do. Do you understand what I am saying? Are we clear that you are not going to get to blame me?" If they answer yes & yes, then I say "Ok, but I did warn you, and you understand I'm here to help, and that I'm not going to take the blame for any problems. If there's problems, you blame the DBA's, or you talk to Oracle, but you don't blame me for them". Mostly that works. Mostly anyway... I've had 2 times where they tried to blame me anyway after that, but hey, because I'd done that, it didn't fly. That beats the crap out of all the times I did suck up the blame for bad code and others mistakes. I don't _do_ that anymore. I'll own _my_ mistakes, not Oracles, not anyone elses. Hell I'm happy to own my own mistakes, it means I'm learning something... However I'm not getting paid to teach sheep tricks, or get my butt kicked for some other clowns Excel pratfalls, so that's as far as that goes. The truth is often a hard thing. I'm not exaggerating though, nor embellishing, I'm summarizing a strategy I use to promote honest dealings with *me*, and what I have to do to get there. I think it sucks. However, as the saying goes, ya can't hate the players, ya gotta hate the game. If Oracle wants to play Oracle's game, Oracle can get the same results they got with whatever ends up being the next MySQL, and now, sadly the next Solaris. Me? I'll just be happy if I can win an argument with the Oracle DBA's about turning off telnetd and only using role accounts. Of the 2, well, I'll take telnetd & call it a win, the role account thing, that's like trying to wipe oil off grains of sand, not a battle I'll fight to win. Ignorance and dishonest cunning will win out over knowledge and honest intent any day of the week in most large companies. Fear driven
Re: [osol-discuss] good news- opensolaris updated roadmap
Edward Martinez wrote: > there are some some good news. Oracle released an Updated opensolaris > roadmap. Looks pretty much exactly like what Oracle has been telling people for months, and many people here have just previously ignored. If repeating it one more time is good news, then I'm glad it finally sunk in. http://www.c0t0d0s0.org/archives/6510-Future-of-OpenSolaris.html -- -Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] good news- opensolaris updated roadmap
there are some some good news. Oracle released an Updated opensolaris roadmap. I will admit it, at first i was a bit skeptic about the future of OpenSolaris but now i will just wait patiently for the next release. Solaris Near Term Roadmap • Solaris 10 – Next update CY2010 (“Update 9”) – Update focus: • New platform support • Oracle product integrations and optimizations • Overall performance improvements to networking & storage stacks • Continued mission critical reliability and quality • OpenSolaris – Next update 1st half CY2010 – Update focus: • Packaging and installation • Continued enhancements to networking and virtualization – Currently based on Build 134, OpenSolaris 2010.?? – No more CDs, downloads only http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:jt7TPSfRB1gJ:www.eecis.udel.edu/~bmiller/DE-OSUG/Oracle-Sun.pdf+opensolaris+oracle+solaris&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShscq5zgqcDlABTGqk8p3UFpOw-T-72W49g8ffpgpqJum9ey7z07ibM3flHif4kyeSksy6YOz1DI7J9YKHfUF9Y8lQdPu5jF17c_FGLF80Pb-M9F5xGUaCtoGkRB2V3nVzOvH0I&sig=AHIEtbRtHFIHSQSPHdooFANeZLr86kFA7g http://www.cuddletech.com/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=1132 -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] thanks to all who helped choochoo with OSOL & message to Oracle/ Sun
> From: opensolaris-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:opensolaris- > discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of jay krik > > If Oracle /Sun truly desire Open Solaris or Solaris to be a viable > alternative to Windows and expand their userbase and financial bottom I don't think most people (oracle especially) are interested in solaris/opensolaris replacing the home user/end user operating system. I'm not saying you can't use it for that purpose; just as there's nothing preventing you from using Windows as an apache server ... The relative strengths/weaknesses of the operating systems design make windows/ubuntu/osx generally better suited for primary end-user desktop interaction, while solaris/opensolaris/RHEL/debian/freebsd are generally better suited to power your servers behind the scenes. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] thanks to all who helped choochoo with OSOL & message to Oracle/ Sun
Ok it's kind of long, but it might be worth reading. Especially to Oracle /Sun corporate people. Here is a conclusion and observation of where I am at now. If Oracle /Sun truly desire Open Solaris or Solaris to be a viable alternative to Windows and expand their userbase and financial bottom line (what business doesn't?), then they have a LONG way to go. Most home computer users are NOT geeks. They demand user friendly and at this point OSOL is NOT. I tried 2009.06. Would not recognize my network adapter. The drivers could be out there, but could not find them. Need to do better at centralizing all available drivers for OSOL or Solaris for all hardware. And automate the install or a good guide of how to. Full Solaris was free for a little time. Downloaded and installed it. It required complete manual setup of the network. Not being experienced in that I did NOT have the information I needed and where to put it. And again no drivers. This needs fixed in all future releases. So it was suggested I D/L OSOL 2010.03 developers. I did. Right off the bat was a boot loop, from Grub to bios and back. This was totally wrong. Never should of been there in any version. Kind people helped me make changes to stop it. But without them and a second computer I couldn't have done it. Neither could of most home users,as above. It did recognize my network though. But could not get it to recognize my 6 month old epson printer or Nikon Camera. Again I couldn't find drivers / software for it. Could be out there, I just didn't find them. Then , I needed two more partitions for my system. Found out how to do it. Rebooted but the partitions did not show. Was told I had to MOUNT them, manually through a terminal. WHAT? Never in windows. Create the partitions, reboot and Voila! there they are as new drive letters, ready to be formatted and used!! As I said OSOL /Solaris is way too cryptic for most home users. I say this as I have helped a lot of Windows users correct mistakes they made or do things they didn't know how to do. They definitely would be lost in OSOL/Solaris. As far as the terminal and cryptic commands for day to day maintenance. I never found a glossary of all the different commands one would need to use. The syntaxes and samples of why and when you might need to use them. ADMINISTRATOR. Here Osol and windows are similar. You are only user and have setup a administrator account. But yet you really aren't. The help file should explain how to become the full administrator either temporarily or permanently so you can just do what is needed and get on with it. Speaking of glossary, it should be included with the D/L so you could print it and refer to it as needed. No, user friendly for the common person it is not. Until it is not many will migrate to it. Lot of people dislike Windows and Bill Gates( I'm one), but Windows is EASY for the common person, who mostly uses it for videos, pictures, text letter, email and browsing. So that brings me to this. I removed Osol. I searched for other Linux type OSes. I settled on Ubuntu. The install was flawless on my ACER aspire 5532. After install it recognized my network and printer (haven't tried camera yet). I built the two partitions rebooted. They showed up on the desktop. And with the label I gave them not just the cryptic /dev/sda1 or 2 ,3,4, etc. They were formatted during creation, but I can change to something else if I want. The graphical layout of hard drive or the partitions is more like windows, a simple pie chart of used and empty. Simple easy to read. For most part software is easy to find and download And some I can say where I want it installed. Thunderbird identified my mail settings with just my ISP's name. Pan is my news reader. Little different than XNews, but learning it. VLC my video player-D/Led it manually. Used it in Windows TrueCrypt for data security, different than Drivecrypt, but mainly because Ubuntu (linux) handles drive naming etc differently than windows. SO just have to get used to that. OpenOffice, been using that with Windows for three years so no changes there. Yep Oracle/Sun need to come a long ways to be equal in user friendliness if you truly want to expand your user base. A lot of people want an alternative to Windows. But they won't change until it is as user friendly as windows. Many shy away from Apple because of cost of the machine. Also since so many have all their personal data stored in a default format (fat or NTFS) Solaris / OSOL must be able to access it even if they leave windows on the system. Many don't have room on main hard drive to duplicate the data and wouldn't understand how to run back and forth to get the data. A guide of how to copy to an external hard drive or to backup to cd / dvd/ usb stick first that OSOL can read would be nice. Many are afraid of losing all their personal stuff during a conversion. I was. I bought a separate notebook and good thing I
Re: [osol-discuss] Where is OpenSolaris 2010 release?
Tim said: "That said, outside of those people's efforts, Oracle is failing with Sun. It is failing obviously & badly to those of us who look to real world results that can be plugged into the wall, turned on in our hands in a somewhat mobile machine, or run on a computer at all." - Well, Oracle is worth about $114 billion while IBM is at $165 billion. There are some 'real world' results that can turn Kool-Aid into wine. You have a point, but also know that many large corporations have decisions to make as well - and some of those same large corporations are still running Sun-based solutions. Some of those corporations and universities are still running Solaris 8/9/10 servers today. Oracle didn't kill off Solaris 10 - nor the OpenSolaris kernel. So on that note, you can create something and call it something. Also, if you read some other forums, OpenSolaris 2010.X is still forthcoming. I haven't heard of the project cancellation. There are some technologies that have lived long after their sponsors or creators. You have the right to pull the plug and walk away. But also know that no matter what solution you come up with, the same fate may reoccur sooner or later. Time to invest in those migration experts. But since this is a 'discussion' - the Emperor made a choice to continue the masquerade of being clothed when he was not (although made fully aware he was unclothed). No one forced the Emperor to make that choice. Some celebrities, magazines, and models make millions off of a very similar concept. Members of Club Bourgeoisie have those types of privileges to make a product like Solaris 11 (or aka Solaris 'X') come out of the work of millions of engineers and schools of academia - and not even worry about what clothes they have on for a given day (i.e. Why? They can pay other people for that). Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer... but I never said let the sharks swim in your bathtub. ~ Ken Mays -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Where is OpenSolaris 2010 release?
I certainly am not enamored with his game of `lifeboat' as a corporate model of `who do we eat next?'. Two main options on the table are. Go with Oracles sponsorship and craft a working relationship ..this may involve a great cultural change,has great rewards.but the community would not be in control and ultimately carry risks. Form a separate not for profit community,rewrite,subsitute licensed code and produce a community edition, ulimatley this would require an arms length relationship with Oracle for things such as support. Will also carry risks but you would have control Clearly what ever you decide it must be customer focused,be developed at the market rate or greater, and be stable enough to deliver a environment for adoption. -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Where is OpenSolaris 2010 release?
kmays wrote: "The point is you could build an updated 'something' and call it something." /* Firstly, I would remind everyone that this is a *discussion* list. "All topics involving OpenSolaris are open for discussion." So if you don't like what I'm saying, fine. But stuff a sock in that ignorant bullshit about how this is supposed to be a discussion list about code, because you're wrong, and it's not. Secondly, try to have a sense of humor about my frustration & hyperbole, I assure you that not even I fully agree with some of the things you're about to read. I do think they need to be said though, and I know for a fact that I'm quite ignorant about whatever is going on. That's part of the problem though isn't it? */ Hmm, here are some naming ideas: Sickly Snake? Vicious Viper? The Arizona Project? Dark Matter? - (because no one can discover what's really going on) Mumbling Marketer? Sails Flails? Layoff Liars? Yournoose Mongoose? - (because the only one throat to choke is going to be your own) Fascist Freedom? - (Red White & Black, Diese farben werden nicht ausgeführt!!) Bloody Bunny? Prefork Pidgin? DeepWater Horizon? Mouldering Morale? Larrys Sinking Ship? Look, before I get flamed by the fires of Oracles autocratic oven, I *know* there are developers working on code. I appreciate that, I really do. It's a small miracle and a testament to decency that everyone hasn't jumped ship. I doubt that it's appreciated, just expected & exploited by Oracle management in a rough economy. That said, outside of those people's efforts, Oracle is failing with Sun. It is failing obviously & badly to those of us who look to real world results that can be plugged into the wall, turned on in our hands in a somewhat mobile machine, or run on a computer at all. I don't know what it will take to kick Larry Ellison's autocratic egotistical mean ass out of his bubble of narcissistic cult worship, but right now all I see is shareholder value being pissed away because Oracle hasn't the faintest clue how to run a company who's core value relies on open source. An before you go knee jerking to drink the KoolAid, I highly suggest you go look at some of the crap *he* says, cause he damn sure has the unvarnished truth coming to him. The problem is he's so stinking rich no one's got the balls to tell him the truth, and he's rich enough not to have to listen to it anyway. Besides that, he's in love with a culture of mean, and that does NOT work with open source projects. No one's ever going to mistake him for a nice & decent person, at least in business. The fact is, Oracle is blowing it, they're making simply awful mistakes with Sun that leave me gaping with surprise at how badly groupthink & `none of us is as dumb as all of us' can ruin what they paid good money for. The company was not culturally prepared to buy Sun. Oracle is unwilling, and wholly unable (imao) to change it's own culture enough to make things work with Sun, and the results of that show. They show in statements Larry makes, they show in how Oracle marketing acts, doesn't act, and _blatantly_ fails with. Now, other than as absolute proof that I quite often don't give a flying crap about my online reputation, wtf is to be done about these problems? I don't know. I don't want to throw in the towel on OpenSolaris, but I am frustrated because things *I* want to work on are too hung up to get involved with right now, and because I like the OS from a technical & CS perspective to want to leave it. What's going on with Oracle has me seriously concerned & discouraged. Thus my angst. I'm not alone in my frustration, and I really wish Oracle would get it's corporate act together. Right now it provably does not have it's act remotely near together. You can play shoot the messenger all you want. I don't care, I don't have to care, and I fully expect it. The nice thing about growing used to abuse is that you learn how much of it ends up being self-serving lies. Pot-shots at the messenger won't put pants on the emperor either, and I certainly am not enamored with his game of `lifeboat' as a corporate model of `who do we eat next?'. Tim -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
