subject:"\[osol\-discuss\] Any news about 2010.3\?"

You (Alex Viskovatoff) ask:
 Just out of curiosity, do you know under what OS CERN uses ZFS?

No, but either Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris... ;-)

Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-14 Thread Svein Skogen

On 31.03.2010 10:06, Orvar Korvar wrote:
 If you value your data, you should reconsider. But if your data is not 
 important, then skip ZFS.
 
 File system data corruption test by researcher:
 http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=169
 
 ZFS data corruption test by researchers:
 http://www.cs.wisc.edu/wind/Publications/zfs-corruption-fast10.pdf

These papers assume that no raidcontrollers perform regular patrol reads
(what zfs calls scrubs). And that no raidcontrollers use an on-disk
storage-format that sacrifices a little space to gain per strip (what
linux-folks call chunk) ecc.

//Svein

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

You (Svein Skogen) wrote:
 On 31.03.2010 10:06, Orvar Korvar wrote:
  If you value your data, you should reconsider. But if your data is not 
  important, then skip ZFS.
  
  File system data corruption test by researcher:
  http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=169
  
  ZFS data corruption test by researchers:
  http://www.cs.wisc.edu/wind/Publications/zfs-corruption-fast10.pdf
 
 These papers assume that no raidcontrollers perform regular patrol reads
 (what zfs calls scrubs). And that no raidcontrollers use an on-disk
 storage-format that sacrifices a little space to gain per strip (what
 linux-folks call chunk) ecc.
 
 //Svein

And the CERN study PROOFED, that there are

a.) RAID controllers that have faulty FWs:
b.) Bit errors happening in more than obvious places and times

Check:

   http://storagemojo.com/2007/09/19/cerns-data-corruption-research/

Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-14 Thread Svein Skogen

On 14.04.2010 09:07, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
 You (Svein Skogen) wrote:
 On 31.03.2010 10:06, Orvar Korvar wrote:
 If you value your data, you should reconsider. But if your data is not 
 important, then skip ZFS.

 File system data corruption test by researcher:
 http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=169

 ZFS data corruption test by researchers:
 http://www.cs.wisc.edu/wind/Publications/zfs-corruption-fast10.pdf

 These papers assume that no raidcontrollers perform regular patrol reads
 (what zfs calls scrubs). And that no raidcontrollers use an on-disk
 storage-format that sacrifices a little space to gain per strip (what
 linux-folks call chunk) ecc.

 //Svein
 
 And the CERN study PROOFED, that there are
 
 a.) RAID controllers that have faulty FWs:
 b.) Bit errors happening in more than obvious places and times
 
 Check:
 
http://storagemojo.com/2007/09/19/cerns-data-corruption-research/

Which is another worthless document, without any info on what
controllers they actually tested with.

I too can make claim about corruption and data loss. But without
pointing the finger to what was actually tested, that's just a claim,
nothing more.

//Svein

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

You (Svein Skogen) wrote:
  Check:
  
 http://storagemojo.com/2007/09/19/cerns-data-corruption-research/
 
 Which is another worthless document, without any info on what
 controllers they actually tested with.
 
 I too can make claim about corruption and data loss. But without
 pointing the finger to what was actually tested, that's just a claim,
 nothing more.
 
 //Svein

What's it, your after? That study is more than 2 years old now, and the
RAID-controllers, that didn't work, probably will have updated their FWs by
now.

And: The Authors are listed, so, go ask them, if you really are interested in
those details.

More importantly is the fact, that bit-errors DO happen, and as I stated
earlier, with the average failure rate and storage size of today it's close to
100% certainty, that if you have more than 128 TB of data, you have an
error. That's a simple derivative from the infos, available from the
manufactures themselfes:

For example, for the Seagate ST31000640SS (1 TB SATA):

AFR: 0,73%
Nonrecoverable Read Errors per Bits Read: 1 sector per 10E15
Error Control/Correction (ECC): 10 bit

From AFR: If you have 200 disks, 1.46 die per year.
ECC: If you have 1024 errors, one will NOT be detected
After that: 1 sector per 10E15 Bit ~= 128 TB is defect
  More precisely: 10E15 = (10E3)E5 = 1024E5 Bit = 1024 Terabit = 116.4
  Terabyte = There's a defect sector every 116.4 Terabit.

These are the DOCUMENTED ERROR RATES of standard consumer disks! Take
enterprise disks, and it's around 1 sector per 10E16 bit and an AFR of 0.55%
(Seagate Savvio 15K.2 ST9146752SS). So, not as bad as above, but still there
are documented possibilities of errors!

And, therefore, it's now a necessity to do error checking at every level!

 Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-14 Thread Svein Skogen

On 14.04.2010 09:33, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
 You (Svein Skogen) wrote:
 Check:

http://storagemojo.com/2007/09/19/cerns-data-corruption-research/

 Which is another worthless document, without any info on what
 controllers they actually tested with.

 I too can make claim about corruption and data loss. But without
 pointing the finger to what was actually tested, that's just a claim,
 nothing more.

 //Svein
 
 What's it, your after? That study is more than 2 years old now, and the
 RAID-controllers, that didn't work, probably will have updated their FWs by
 now.

Ahh, so first you use the papers to prove how superior ZFS is to
raidcontrollers for your data. Then, when asked to provide more data
than this claim, the study is too old and the problems are fixed? Which
is it, is the study still valid, or is it deprecated?

 And: The Authors are listed, so, go ask them, if you really are interested in
 those details.
 
 More importantly is the fact, that bit-errors DO happen, and as I stated
 earlier, with the average failure rate and storage size of today it's close to
 100% certainty, that if you have more than 128 TB of data, you have an
 error. That's a simple derivative from the infos, available from the
 manufactures themselfes:
 
 For example, for the Seagate ST31000640SS (1 TB SATA):
 
 AFR: 0,73%
 Nonrecoverable Read Errors per Bits Read: 1 sector per 10E15
 Error Control/Correction (ECC): 10 bit
 
From AFR: If you have 200 disks, 1.46 die per year.
 ECC: If you have 1024 errors, one will NOT be detected
 After that: 1 sector per 10E15 Bit ~= 128 TB is defect
   More precisely: 10E15 = (10E3)E5 = 1024E5 Bit = 1024 Terabit = 116.4
   Terabyte = There's a defect sector every 116.4 Terabit.
 
 These are the DOCUMENTED ERROR RATES of standard consumer disks! Take
 enterprise disks, and it's around 1 sector per 10E16 bit and an AFR of 0.55%
 (Seagate Savvio 15K.2 ST9146752SS). So, not as bad as above, but still there
 are documented possibilities of errors!
 
 And, therefore, it's now a necessity to do error checking at every level!

Which is why such error-checking should be done by proper
raid-controllers (and it is, btw). Read that properly. I did not say
that it should _ONLY_ be done in the raid controller. Doing it on
fs-level as well only adds to the protection.

//Svein

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

You (Svein Skogen) wrote:
  What's it, your after? That study is more than 2 years old now, and the
  RAID-controllers, that didn't work, probably will have updated their FWs by
  now.
 
 Ahh, so first you use the papers to prove how superior ZFS is to
 raidcontrollers for your data. Then, when asked to provide more data
 than this claim, the study is too old and the problems are fixed? Which
 is it, is the study still valid, or is it deprecated?

NO! The CERN study does not mention ZFS at all! So, I did not claim
superiority of ZFS (although it is! And, now I'm doing it!), I simply wanted
to STATE that RAID in Hardware alone is NOT SUFFICIENT. The study is still
valid! But it's NOT about RAID-Controlers alone! You did start the fight on
(defending of) RAID-controlers, not me!

  And, therefore, it's now a necessity to do error checking at every level!
 
 Which is why such error-checking should be done by proper
 raid-controllers (and it is, btw). Read that properly. I did not say
 that it should _ONLY_ be done in the raid controller. Doing it on
 fs-level as well only adds to the protection.
 
 //Svein

Agreed!

BUT: With, for example ZFS, there no longer is a need for HW
RAID-controlers...

Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-13 Thread Mike DeMarco

 Hmmm... I am glad I can change the backdrop. :-)

Now, In the future it will most likely violate the usage agreement to remove or 
revamp any Oracle logos.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-13 Thread Paul Floyd

 What about Apple? Apple is also a small
 Unix-Vendor, has NO OpenSource
 Version, and keeps MacOS alive and kicking to
 generate immense revenue from
 its IP... ;-)

No need for the double quotes. Mac OS X on Intel is certified SUSv3, i.e., 
genuine UNIX.

Also, the kernel parts are opensource (Darwin), though that's far from being 
all of the operating system.

Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-13 Thread Matthias Pfützner

Paul,

You (Paul Floyd) wrote:
 You (Matthias Pfützner) wrote:
  What about Apple? Apple is also a small
  Unix-Vendor, has NO OpenSource
  Version, and keeps MacOS alive and kicking to
  generate immense revenue from
  its IP... ;-)
 
 No need for the double quotes. Mac OS X on Intel is certified SUSv3, i.e., 
 genuine UNIX.

I did put Unix in quotes, as most Apple Users don't have the slightest
notion about what Unix is, and why they should care... ;-) And because also
some Linux people don't know, that Linux is a unix-oid OS...

 Also, the kernel parts are opensource (Darwin), though that's far from being 
 all of the operating system.

Yes, I also learned that recently, thanks for the update!

 Paul

Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-13 Thread Alex Viskovatoff

 CERN now uses (not at all yet, but going there) ZFS just for the obvious
reasons! They produce massive data, and need that data to be correct

Just out of curiosity, do you know under what OS CERN uses ZFS?
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3? (Please don't feed the troll)

2010-04-07 Thread Svein Skogen

On 07.04.2010 03:30, Erik Trimble wrote:
 Email from bsd is a consistent (if subtle) troll.
 
 
 Please do not feed him by replying to any posts of his.

Seems the definition of troll here is someone who isn't drinking the
fanboi koolaid. I had hoped that such rabid behavior was something left
behind with the militant penguinistas, or the Church of St. Jobs.

//Svein

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3? (Please don't feed the troll)

2010-04-07 Thread Robert Milkowski


On 07/04/2010 03:02, bsd wrote:

I'm entitled to share my thoughts, especially since I've used OpenSolaris from 
its inception through build 129; but it seems you're only accepting of opinions 
that align with your own?
   

It doesn't matter for how long you've been using Open Solaris.
Frankly, your thought on the subject do not make sense and I tend to 
agree with Eric that you seem to be trolling.


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http://milek.blogspot.com

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3? (Please don't feed the troll)

I do accept other opinions.

But: You're not correct, and you're misreading stuff in a subtle way and using
well-constructed mis-leading WRONG assumptions drawn from what YOU interpret
into YOUR reading...

I just proofed it with a SINGLE sentence that you put into your last
email. I'm to lazy to start dissecting EVERY SINGLE BIT OF YOUR STATEMENTS,
but I can assure the others here, they are also based on MIS-INTERPRETATIONS!

And you're doing it repeatedly, and that's why we start calling you a
troll. Because it's YOU who wants others to believe YOUR interpretation. We
all can see, that you've made clear your intentions and your fears. We all try
to counter them to re-assure you, but you keep insisting...

That's trolling!

   Matthias

You (bsd) wrote:
 I'm entitled to share my thoughts, especially since I've used OpenSolaris 
 from its inception through build 129; but it seems you're only accepting of 
 opinions that align with your own?
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Robert Milkowski


On 07/04/2010 01:54, bsd wrote:

You can read many things into words and statements, but if you read carefully 
how Oracle responds to questions about Solaris and OpenSolaris, you can only 
wonder what will happen once the dust settles.

Oracle is investing more in Solaris than Sun did prior to the acquisition, and will 
continue to contribute technologies to OpenSolaris, as Oracle already does for many other 
open source projects.

Oracle is investing more in Solaris... then mentions they will contribute 
technologies to OpenSolaris.  To me this clearly illustrates that Oracle is 
going to be developing Solaris independent of OpenSolaris, meaning OpenSolaris 
isn't just a development project for Solaris.  Especially given this:
   


It seems you don't understand how Solaris is being developed.
Your conclusion here doesn't really make any sense.


Oracle CEO Larry Ellison said at then end of January that Solaris would become 
Oracle's enterprise operating system for SPARC-based systems and for clusters.

Oracle intends to use Solaris for SPARC and clusters.  OpenSolaris wasn't 
developed for SPARC, but rather x86.  This is also indicative that Oracle 
intends to develop Solaris independently of OpenSolaris and that OpenSolaris 
isn't a development project for Solaris.

   


So you claim you've been involved with Open Solris since its inception 
(care to reveal your true name?) yet you don't know that it always has 
been developed for both SPARC and x86? Then the Indiana distribution 
(currently known as OpenSolaris distribution) has initially been 
packaged and delivered for x86 systems as it's main target audience were 
developers/sysadmin/etc. who want an access to latestgreatest 
technologies and almost all of them have access to x86 (laptop, pc, ...) 
and not necessarily SPARC. Then when time was right the OS distribution 
has started to be provided for SPARC as well (before Oracle acquisition).


The Open Solaris as the Solaris Next in-development (source code) has 
always been developed both for SPARC and x86 and has always been 
provided in some form for both architectures (SXCE, Indiana, ...).




'Oracle will ensure customers running OpenSolaris have an option for support on 
Oracle Sun Systems where it's required, though given the very little sales here, this 
will not be something we expect many customers to deploy going forward, Roberts 
said.'

OpenSolaris support will be available, but only on hardware purchased from 
Oracle, and it seems if they determine it's required.

   

I'm not sure if it's been decided yet. So we have to wait and see.


It's a change we're still getting use to, though hopefully many of the public 
statements are very clear that Solaris is our now No. 1 enterprise OS and we will 
increase investment. We won't be able to talk about specific features, but the future is 
very bright.

Again, Solaris is our number 1 enterprise OS.  Yes, for SPARC hardware, which 
is where the investments will be made.  OpenSolaris isn't their enterprise OS 
and isn't for SPARC hardware, so I don't see much investment by Oracle.

   


Open Solaris runs both on SPARC and x86.
And yes, Solairs has been the #1 enterprise OS and not Open Solaris - 
both for Sun and now Oracle.
Nothing new here and nothing really surprising. To some degree it's a 
definition of enterprise - stable and proven code and not the bleeding 
edge. It's the same with other operating systems - RedHat does not 
consider Fedora it's enterprise offering but it doesn't stop customers 
deploying it in live when/if it makes sense. The same is with Open Solaris.




Personally, I don't see the commitment to OpenSolaris by Oracle.


Because judging from your emails I believe you don't want to see the 
commitment no matter what.



   It doesn't make sense for them to invest heavily in developing an enterprise 
Solaris for SPARC while simultaneously investing substantially in OpenSolaris, 
which won't offer them any signifcant return on investments.
   


No, it wouldn't make sense - fortunately Sun/Oracle doesn't work the way 
you think it does.




I'm not saying that Oracle does a great job right now about 
communicating its plans - it doesn't.
Also I'm not saying that there aren't any concerns - there are and we 
have to wait and see and complain so maybe Oracle will notice.


But the conclusions you presented here seem to have little if anything 
to do with reality.



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http://milek.blogspot.com



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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Hmmm.  I guess it is who you are and if your opinions are in line with 
Oracle/OpenSolaris because the previous post seems to be against the agreement 
in joining and nothing has been said to them?
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

You might be interested in reading:

http://bit.ly/9Yzjs0

You (bsd) wrote:
 Hmmm.  I guess it is who you are and if your opinions are in line with 
 Oracle/OpenSolaris because the previous post seems to be against the 
 agreement in joining and nothing has been said to them?
 -- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

As well as in:

   http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?sessionId=containerId=lcUS22283210

It's an IDC Statement w.r.t.:  A Sun Support Migration Plan: Oracle Announces
New Support Offerings for Systems

I (Matthias Pfützner) wrote:
 You might be interested in reading:
 
 http://bit.ly/9Yzjs0
 
 You (bsd) wrote:
  Hmmm.  I guess it is who you are and if your opinions are in line with 
  Oracle/OpenSolaris because the previous post seems to be against the 
  agreement in joining and nothing has been said to them?
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D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | waiting to happen.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

You people are really uptight and defensive about OpenSolaris and any talk 
about negative intentions Oracle may have towards it.  

I stand by my position about x86/Sparc, it was developed for x86 laptops 
(OpenSolaris is like PC-BSD), because who would develop a data center operating 
system that is complete with gnome, firefox, NWAM (which is nice, but not for 
dc depolyment), an image viewer, forced to use ZFS, I can go on with unneeded 
software for data centers.  It's great on a laptop.  But the last build I can 
get to work on my laptop is 129.  I tried again last night when I reinstalled 
with build 129 and did an image-update.  It merely does a continuous loop.  I 
get the grub menu and select the new b-e then it reboots the laptop, although 
129 still works fine.  I may just keep it at 129 instead of reinstalling with 
something else.  

They're my own opinions and what I think doesn't have any affect on Oracle's 
decision to keep it or dump it.  How I read a vague statement is my personal 
decision although it seems here one has no personal opinion or thoughts.  
Rather one must join the collective and assimilate or be persecuted.

Any personal thoughts on the future of OpenSolaris that aren't butterflies and 
daffodils and you want to burn someone at the stake.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?



You (bsd) wrote:
 You people are really uptight and defensive about OpenSolaris and any talk 
 about negative intentions Oracle may have towards it.  

At least we know, who we are, and aren't posting anonymously...

Just again, to state it clearly:

 Open Source is Open Source is Open Source!
 
 You CAN NOT revert that!

Is that really so difficult to understand?

 I stand by my position about x86/Sparc, it was developed for x86 laptops 
 (OpenSolaris is like PC-BSD),

Repeating BULLSHIT doesn't make it Champagne!

 because who would develop a data center operating system that is complete 
 with gnome, firefox, NWAM (which is nice, but not for dc depolyment), an 
 image viewer, forced to use ZFS, I can go on with unneeded software for data 
 centers.

Solaris ALWAYS had a windows system! So, no news here...

Again: Red my lips: Repeating BULLSHIT doesn't make it Champagne!

 It's great on a laptop.  But the last build I can get to work on my laptop is 
 129.  I tried again last night when I reinstalled with build 129 and did an 
 image-update.  It merely does a continuous loop.  I get the grub menu and 
 select the new b-e then it reboots the laptop, although 129 still works fine. 
  I may just keep it at 129 instead of reinstalling with something else.  

Did you ever try to NATIVELY install build 134? Directly off of an USB stick?

http://genunix.org/ has it, just try!

 They're my own opinions and what I think doesn't have any affect on Oracle's 
 decision to keep it or dump it.  How I read a vague statement is my personal 
 decision although it seems here one has no personal opinion or thoughts.  
 Rather one must join the collective and assimilate or be persecuted.

That's utter none-sense. No one is FORCING you to BELIEVE anything. We're
simply and still only trying to CORRECT your WRONG statements. That's all!

 Any personal thoughts on the future of OpenSolaris that aren't butterflies 
 and daffodils and you want to burn someone at the stake.

Or do you have any OTHER REAL INSIGHT into what Oracle's REAL plans are?
You've got a crystal ball? You're the Oracle at Delphi, able to see the
future? Is that, what you're trying to tell us?

Still sticking to my statements, that you're only trying to spread FUD.

Yes, there are bugs in EVERY SINGLE BUILD of osol, but, again, it's software
in development, NOT a production version, nor a PRODUCT. So, what exactly are
you complaining about?

Matthias
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Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | tem is merely an accident
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Paul Gress


On 04/ 7/10 11:57 AM, bsd wrote:

You people are really uptight and defensive about OpenSolaris and any talk 
about negative intentions Oracle may have towards it.

I stand by my position about x86/Sparc, it was developed for x86 laptops 
(OpenSolaris is like PC-BSD), because who would develop a data center operating 
system that is complete with gnome, firefox, NWAM (which is nice, but not for 
dc depolyment), an image viewer, forced to use ZFS, I can go on with unneeded 
software for data centers.  It's great on a laptop.  But the last build I can 
get to work on my laptop is 129.  I tried again last night when I reinstalled 
with build 129 and did an image-update.  It merely does a continuous loop.  I 
get the grub menu and select the new b-e then it reboots the laptop, although 
129 still works fine.  I may just keep it at 129 instead of reinstalling with 
something else.

   


The b134 has a glitch that it will do exactly as you see.  To fix that 
you need to edit the grub menu.


Here is a copy of mine, located at: /rpool/boot/grub/menu.lst

#
#Created with GrubEd on StarDate Tue Mar  9 21:53:21 2010
#
#End User Verification Process Initiated
#

splashimage /boot/solaris.xpm
timeout 5
default 3

#TITLE-BODY#

title osol-132
bootfs rpool/ROOT/osol-132
kernel$ /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix -B 
$ZFS-BOOTFS,console=graphics

module$ /platform/i86pc/$ISADIR/boot_archive
title osol-133-1
bootfs rpool/ROOT/osol-133-1
kernel$ /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix -B 
$ZFS-BOOTFS,console=graphics

module$ /platform/i86pc/$ISADIR/boot_archive
title osol-133_openoffice
bootfs rpool/ROOT/osol-133_openoffice
kernel$ /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix -B 
$ZFS-BOOTFS,console=graphics

module$ /platform/i86pc/$ISADIR/boot_archive
title osol-134
bootfs rpool/ROOT/osol-134
kernel$ /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix -B $ZFS-BOOTFS,console=text
module$ /platform/i86pc/$ISADIR/boot_archive

#END-TITLE-#




Notice the entry for osol-134, it's different then the other entries.  
The difference is console-text.


Change your entry and you should be able to boot into 134.



Paul






They're my own opinions and what I think doesn't have any affect on Oracle's 
decision to keep it or dump it.  How I read a vague statement is my personal 
decision although it seems here one has no personal opinion or thoughts.  
Rather one must join the collective and assimilate or be persecuted.

Any personal thoughts on the future of OpenSolaris that aren't butterflies and 
daffodils and you want to burn someone at the stake.
   


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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

I (Matthias Pfützner) wrote:
  It's great on a laptop.  But the last build I can get to work on my laptop 
  is 129.  I tried again last night when I reinstalled with build 129 and did 
  an image-update.  It merely does a continuous loop.  I get the grub menu 
  and select the new b-e then it reboots the laptop, although 129 still works 
  fine.  I may just keep it at 129 instead of reinstalling with something 
  else.  
 
 Did you ever try to NATIVELY install build 134? Directly off of an USB stick?
 
 http://genunix.org/ has it, just try!

Yes, there's a bug in 134, that has to do with console=graphics, but that's
been in Nevada, not Indiana, afaik. Try to remove console=graphics from the
grub menu, perhaps it resolves your boot problem...

Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Thank you.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Don Quichotte

  The question is IF. And WHY all the silence and
 secrecy??
 
 Because they have other things to do?
 
Because it's *so* much work to make a small announcement on the main page 
saying they're sorry they won't make the previous deadline and maybe give us a 
new estimate?

I realise we might not be their biggest concern right now but come on, this 
silence is not doing much good to their beloved open source community now is it?
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Robert Milkowski




Ok, I was patient enough and enough is enough.
No point arguing with you about basic facts Mr Anonymous Coward.


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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Harry Langenbacher

   The question is IF. And WHY all the silence and
  secrecy??
  
  Because they have other things to do?
  
 Because it's *so* much work to make a small
 announcement on the main page saying they're sorry
 they won't make the previous deadline and maybe give
 us a new estimate?

If they don' know whether or not they'll have a job tomorrow, how can they 
estimate when your free software will be ready?

Have a little sympathy.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Don Quichotte

All of them are at risk to lose their job now? As far as I know we don't know 
anything about their job security.

So since we don't know about their job security (or lack thereof) I'm basing my 
posts on the assumption that they're not all going to get the sack anytime soon.

I'm not asking them to push this thing out the door, screaming and kicking, nor 
am I asking them to divulge to us their entire financial plans. I merely asking 
why they haven't said *anything* whatsoever about OpenSolaris.

Just one little statement on the main page saying something like Sorry folks, 
looks like 2010.03 won't be out because we've got some bugs to kill so we at 
least know the delay isn't because they're quietly letting this project wither 
and die.

It's not asking much, it's just courtesy.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Nice there was no reprimand for the idiot who keeps saying BULLSHIT.

So, your comments are BULLSHIT.

Now, I bet I get some comments telling me my language is inappropriate, 
although that never happened to the other BULLSHITTER.

BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Shawn Walker


On 04/ 7/10 03:37 PM, bsd wrote:

Nice there was no reprimand for the idiot who keeps saying...


Folks, please keep it civil or take your discussion off-list.

Can we please let this thread die now?

-Shawn
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?


You did state it yourself.

Why should Oracle, the second largest SW company on rge planet, put something 
s minor on the front page of oracle.com?

There are way more important things there...

And opensolaris.com never did count-downs...

And opensolaris.org is NOT responsible for the binary distribution...

So, where do you think, such a statement should occur?

Matthias

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-

Von: Don Quichotte dvandervo...@gmail.com
Just one little statement on the main page saying something like Sorry folks, looks 
like 2010.03 won't be out because we've got some bugs to kill so we at least know 
the delay isn't because they're quietly letting this project wither and die.

It's not asking much, it's just courtesy.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?


Hey, anonymous bsd mascot green, calm down...

I did call some statements of yours bullshit, especially the one claiming 
that osol was only made for x86. That's been a wrong statement, and as you kept 
insisting, I called it bullshit. I know otherwise, as I could follow internally what's 
been the ideas...

So, now, that we're getting back to business, I'd like to bury the war-axe and 
smoke a peace-pipe...

And as you saw, decent questions do get decent answers, that I would not call 
idiotic...

So, how's build 134 doing?

It seems, you have an thinkpad with a nvidia card, as the only reported systems 
having that reboot-loop-problem were some such...

  Matthias

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-

Von: bsd mascotgr...@yahoo.com
An: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Gesendet: 7.4.'10,  22:38

Nice there was no reprimand for the idiot who keeps saying BULLSHIT.

So, your comments are BULLSHIT.

Now, I bet I get some comments telling me my language is inappropriate, 
although that never happened to the other BULLSHITTER.

BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Paul Gress


On 04/ 7/10 04:53 PM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:



So, how's build 134 doing?

It seems, you have an thinkpad with a nvidia card, as the only 
reported systems having that reboot-loop-problem were some such...




I had the same problem with my Nvidia Quadro 1600M Graphics card in a 
Clevo D901C Portable Workstation.




Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Peace pipe accepted.  :-)

I set 'console=text' but it still loops.  I have also set 'acpi-user-options=2' 
because otherwise I get a kernel panic.  Anything after b129 is problematic for 
some reason.  

It's a Toshiba L505D-S5983.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread John Martin


On 04/ 7/10 07:58 PM, bsd wrote:

Peace pipe accepted.  :-)

I set 'console=text' but it still loops.  I have also set 'acpi-user-options=2' 
because otherwise I get a kernel panic.  Anything after b129 is problematic for 
some reason.

It's a Toshiba L505D-S5983.


Upgrading from b129 on several of my systems required
applying these two fixes documented in:

  http://opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=125446tstart=0

The first one fixed the panic reboot loop.


6914346 upgrade from OpenSolaris 2009.06 (111b2) to 130 fails with stale
http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6914346

After updating to build 130 or beyond, the system may panic
with messages of the form

/kernel/misc/amd64/pci_autoconfig:
undefined symbol 'pcie_get_rc_dip'
WARNING: mod_load: cannot load module 'pci_autoconfig'

panic[cpu0]/thread=fbc2e3a0:
failed to load misc/pci_autoconfig

Work-around: Boot the original boot environment (BE) instead
and correct the boot archive as follows

reboot into the earlier BE
u...@host$ pfexec beadm mount name of new BE /mnt
u...@host$ pfexec bootadm update-archive -F -R /mnt
u...@host$ pfexec beadm unmount name of new BE

At this point, the new BE can be booted into.

12380 image-update loses /dev/ptmx from /etc/minor_perm
http://defect.opensolaris.org/bz/show_bug.cgi?id=12380

When using image-update or the Package Manager to update to
build 125 or greater, remote access to the system via ssh(1) or
rlogin(1) may become unavailable. Alternatively, using
terminal programs such as gnome-terminal(1) or xterm(1) may
result in characters not being echoed or commands unable to be
typed.

Work-around: Boot the original boot environment (BE) instead
and correct the /etc/minor_perm file contained within as
follows

reboot into the earlier BE
u...@host$ pfexec beadm mount name of new BE /mnt
u...@host$ pfexec sh -c \
grep ^clone: /etc/minor_perm  /mnt/etc/minor_perm
u...@host$ pfexec touch /mnt/reconfigure
u...@host$ pfexec bootadm update-archive -R /mnt
u...@host$ pfexec beadm unmount name of new BE

At this point, the new BE can be booted into.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-07 Thread Ian Collins


On 04/ 8/10 11:58 AM, bsd wrote:

Peace pipe accepted.  :-)

I set 'console=text' but it still loops.  I have also set 'acpi-user-options=2' 
because otherwise I get a kernel panic.  Anything after b129 is problematic for 
some reason.

It's a Toshiba L505D-S5983.
   
Try creating a grub entry adding -kd flags for kernel$ to drop you into 
the kernel debugger.  I have this entry in my /rpool/boot/grub/menu.lst


title OpenSolaris Development snv_133 Debug
findroot (pool_rpool,0,a)
bootfs rpool/ROOT/opensolaris
kernel$ /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix -kd -B $ZFS-BOOTFS
module$ /platform/i86pc/$ISADIR/boot_archive

When you get the kernel debugger prompt, enter

[0]  moddebug/W 8000
[0]  :c

and you should see how far it gets before bailing.

--
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

When using debug I noticed the problem that John Martin described above which 
is:
/kernel/misc/amd64/pci_autoconfig:
undefined symbol 'pcie_get_rc_dip'
WARNING: mod_load: cannot load module 'pci_autoconfig'

I used the exact steps he published and am working now in b134!

Thank you!
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

The problems you identified were spot on and your solutions worked perfectly!

Thank you!
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-06 Thread Matthias Pfützner

You (James Mansion) wrote:
 ?? ?? (Martin Bochnig) wrote:
 No, you are missing the point.
 The idea was to provide a free and open AllInOne A to Z software
 platform stack, that would be able to compete with LinUX and to win
 the OS battle.
   
 Then that was a mind-numbingly stupid strategy - because:
 a) it would take so long that Sun would be out of business first (oh, look 
 ...)
 b) I'm not sure that's what customers really want
 c) having the best free stack is pointless without revenue
 This would have increased hardware sales and sales of
 service/maintenance/support contracts.
   
 So - we've given up trying to be like Microsoft, let's try and be like Red 
 Hat?

What about Apple? Apple is also a small Unix-Vendor, has NO OpenSource
Version, and keeps MacOS alive and kicking to generate immense revenue from
its IP... ;-)

I guess, that's not an option for OpenSolaris, as OSOL is Open Source but it
might well be an option for Solaris, just like the Mainframe OS etc...

These IP-Advantages will be coming in the form of appliances (like the
Exadata...)

BUT TO STATE THAT CLEAR HERE: I DON'T HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO ORACLE'S PLAN
W.R.T. SOLARIS/OPENSOLARIS!

   Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-06 Thread Matthias Pfützner

You (James Mansion) wrote:
 Microsoft have never had a problem with ISV mindshare because they made 
 things cheap and accessible. Free is just one form of cheap from that 
 perspective. I absolutely believe that Microsoft's success is not nearly so 
 much related to monopolistic practices as to their early ability to court 
 ISVs and their ability to use ABIs (like VBXs and OLE controls) to create a 
 marketplace for small ISVs. Microsoft took their eye off that ball a few 
 years back but they seem to have recovered.

But MS was and is in a very different position... ;-)

Now, with the second largest SW-vendor on earth as the owner of Solaris things
might well change...

 Maybe I'm just an old fart but I recall my dismay at the Byte headlines 

I did read Byte too, and am deeply sad, that it ceased to exist. Even its
online archive is gone, which is a big shame!

 that OO had failed and components had won. I was an early C++ adopter and 
 it was galling - because it was true. How many businesses ever got anywhere 
 with aftermarket controls on any of the X toolkits? Maybe Qt will create an 
 ecosystem - I don't know. But I think the lesson was that open standards 
 don't create that sort of ISV-friendly environment on their own and the 
 existence of such a market does wonders. Look at the iPhone app shop. Same 
 thing again.

So right! Look at all the hype around the iPad this easter weekend... ;-)
Nothing open, still more revenue than what's been decided to provide Haiti as
earthquake relieve help...

   Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-06 Thread Uros Nedic


 What about Apple? Apple is also a small Unix-Vendor, has NO OpenSource
 Version, and keeps MacOS alive and kicking to generate immense revenue from
 its IP... ;-)
 
I would like to give some of my thoughts regarding this statement. Namely,Apple 
doesn't sell MacOS - it actually sells hardware bundled with MacOS.It is, from 
my perspective very important thing, since they are selling somesort of 
Embedded System, which cannot be compared with OpenSolaris projectat all.

 I guess, that's not an option for OpenSolaris, as OSOL is Open Source but it
 might well be an option for Solaris, just like the Mainframe OS etc...
 
 These IP-Advantages will be coming in the form of appliances (like the
 Exadata...)
If we try to compare Apple embedded systems strategy with Exadata - again,it 
would not be good since there are lot of third-party applications thatare 
developed or ported on OpenSolaris. Of course, there are lot of 
third-partyapplication ported on MacOS but usually it was done by great help of 
Appledevelopers taking care that application be highly optimized regardingspeed 
execution.
 
 BUT TO STATE THAT CLEAR HERE: I DON'T HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO ORACLE'S PLAN
 W.R.T. SOLARIS/OPENSOLARIS!
 
Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-06 Thread Svein Skogen

On 06.04.2010 11:04, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
 You (James Mansion) wrote:
 ?? ?? (Martin Bochnig) wrote:
 No, you are missing the point.
 The idea was to provide a free and open AllInOne A to Z software
 platform stack, that would be able to compete with LinUX and to win
 the OS battle.
   
 Then that was a mind-numbingly stupid strategy - because:
 a) it would take so long that Sun would be out of business first (oh, look 
 ...)
 b) I'm not sure that's what customers really want
 c) having the best free stack is pointless without revenue
 This would have increased hardware sales and sales of
 service/maintenance/support contracts.
   
 So - we've given up trying to be like Microsoft, let's try and be like Red 
 Hat?
 
 What about Apple? Apple is also a small Unix-Vendor, has NO OpenSource
 Version, and keeps MacOS alive and kicking to generate immense revenue from
 its IP... ;-)

Funny that you should mention just Apple. I see that Solaris 10 has
genuine Adobe Flash.

This gives me the impression that Adobe has no problems developing
software for Solaris.

Now think about the boost in hardware-sales (for _REALLY_ high end
workstations) that could've been generated by something like Creative
Suite for OpenSolaris.

Those of Apples customers that are not ... rabid iFanatics, are
Apple-customers just to run Creative Suite on something not windows. I
personally know several who would've preferred running Creative Suite on
hardware that didn't come bundled with iTunes... (I for one would've
preferred it on my ThinkPad W500)...

//Svein

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-06 Thread Anon Y Mous

I think the engineers at Sun should take their time with this release and 
release it whenever it's ready and bug free and not let peer pressure from the 
community or from management force them to make a final 2010.04 release that 
has critical bugs in it. I want to use this next release on production servers 
which means that hopefully the critical bug list will be minimal. 

This bug especially:

http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6923585

seems like another good reason I've been staying with snv_129, as I don't think 
it's affected by it, but I'll test in VirtualBox just to make sure.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-06 Thread bsd

You can read many things into words and statements, but if you read carefully 
how Oracle responds to questions about Solaris and OpenSolaris, you can only 
wonder what will happen once the dust settles.

Oracle is investing more in Solaris than Sun did prior to the acquisition, and 
will continue to contribute technologies to OpenSolaris, as Oracle already does 
for many other open source projects. 

Oracle is investing more in Solaris... then mentions they will contribute 
technologies to OpenSolaris.  To me this clearly illustrates that Oracle is 
going to be developing Solaris independent of OpenSolaris, meaning OpenSolaris 
isn't just a development project for Solaris.  Especially given this:

Oracle CEO Larry Ellison said at then end of January that Solaris would become 
Oracle's enterprise operating system for SPARC-based systems and for clusters.

Oracle intends to use Solaris for SPARC and clusters.  OpenSolaris wasn't 
developed for SPARC, but rather x86.  This is also indicative that Oracle 
intends to develop Solaris independently of OpenSolaris and that OpenSolaris 
isn't a development project for Solaris.

'Oracle will ensure customers running OpenSolaris have an option for support 
on Oracle Sun Systems where it's required, though given the very little sales 
here, this will not be something we expect many customers to deploy going 
forward, Roberts said.'

OpenSolaris support will be available, but only on hardware purchased from 
Oracle, and it seems if they determine it's required.

It's a change we're still getting use to, though hopefully many of the public 
statements are very clear that Solaris is our now No. 1 enterprise OS and we 
will increase investment. We won't be able to talk about specific features, but 
the future is very bright. 

Again, Solaris is our number 1 enterprise OS.  Yes, for SPARC hardware, which 
is where the investments will be made.  OpenSolaris isn't their enterprise OS 
and isn't for SPARC hardware, so I don't see much investment by Oracle.

Personally, I don't see the commitment to OpenSolaris by Oracle.  It doesn't 
make sense for them to invest heavily in developing an enterprise Solaris for 
SPARC while simultaneously investing substantially in OpenSolaris, which won't 
offer them any signifcant return on investments.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3? (Please don't feed the troll)

2010-04-06 Thread Erik Trimble

Email from bsd is a consistent (if subtle) troll.


Please do not feed him by replying to any posts of his.


-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3? (Please don't feed the troll)

2010-04-06 Thread bsd

I'm entitled to share my thoughts, especially since I've used OpenSolaris from 
its inception through build 129; but it seems you're only accepting of opinions 
that align with your own?
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-06 Thread Anon Y Mous

This bug with ZFS deduplication is another one that needs to be fixed correctly 
before the next long term support stable release of OpenSolaris comes out:

http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6924824
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Simon Phipps wrote:
Ths thing I find interesting in the article, and indeed in many of your statements, is that you show absolutely no sign of self-doubt about whether open sourcing everything you could actually destroyed shareholder value and drove Sun down the toilet.

That's because it did not. See the penultimate paragraph of
http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/

I don't understand. I'm looking at 'we've achieved some amazing things
... despite the success of Sun's open source business, it still wasn't
enough to rescue Sun'.

That looks self-congratulatory to me, not doubting. I'm not sure how the
open sourcing was successful for Sun shareholders. Definitely
successful for Red Hat shareholders though. Where's the bit that says
'maybe embracing open source was a huge mistake and we screwed up'? Its
one thing to embrace open source by consuming it, but embracing it by
taking a huge IP investment and chucking over the wall? (Well, mostly ...)

The whole strategy seems to have been predicated on 'the enemy of my
enemy is my friend', presumably based on a massive chip-on-shoulder
brought about by NT eating your market in CAD and financial workstations.

Hopefully Larry's management team will see that there IS some market for
a not-Windows alternative for PC-clone workstations and that the
consistency, stability of interfaces and compatibility that defined
Solaris are a differentiator that can make it more attractive to OEMs
than Linux variants. But I'm not hopeful.

James

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-05 Thread Joerg Schilling

James Mansion ja...@mansionfamily.plus.com wrote:

 Simon Phipps wrote:
  Ths thing I find interesting in the article, and indeed in many of your 
  statements, is that you show absolutely no sign of self-doubt about 
  whether open sourcing everything you could actually destroyed shareholder 
  value and drove Sun down the toilet.  
  
 
  That's because it did not. See the penultimate paragraph of 
  http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/
 

 I don't understand. I'm looking at 'we've achieved some amazing things 
 ... despite the success of Sun's open source business, it still wasn't 
 enough to rescue Sun'.

 That looks self-congratulatory to me, not doubting. I'm not sure how the 
 open sourcing was successful for Sun shareholders.  Definitely 

You mentioned above that OpenSourcing Solaris was not enough to rescue Sun.


You are correct: without OpenSourcing Solaris, Sun would have been in trouble 
earlier. So you can answer your question I'm not sure how the open sourcing 
was successful for Sun shareholders. with a _yes_, as it helped to raise the 
Sun stock price.

I further believe that a closer collaboration with the cummunity (as intended 
by Sun in September 2004) would have given the additional momentum for Sun to 
push it into the win zone for a longer time.

This is however a lost chance and we cannot roll back time...

Jörg

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

James: For 3 pretty ROI-worthless aquisitions alone (Cobalt, STK and
MySQL) Sun's top-management spent 10 Billion USD (ten thousand
millions!!!).
Every time the behaved like kids: At hopelessly overheated markets -
instead of selling something - they bought! Obviously the paid way
overpriced amounts for much too little counter-valueadd.


If you closely watched the NYSE charts over the years you should know,
that these 10 Billions are more $$$, than Sun ever managed to generate
as a profit in all these years summed up.

To me that appears to be more related to Sun's liquidity problems.
And those were indeed severe management faults at the HIGHEST levels.

Other errors certainly include a pricing policy, where 5 years old
processors still stood on the price list at their launch prices (such
as something like 7995 USD for a 600MHz UltraSPARC III non-Cu module
for the Blade 2000). And were the option price for a simple stupid
generic IDE-DVD-ROM drive for the Blade 150 was 295 EUR on sun.de (at
least from 2003 till 2006).


You are blaming the wrong man!
I made this mistake myself for far too long.

I agree with Joerg's statements below: Sun was not open enough. For
this reason substantial parts of real community-support were sent to
dust. While those parts of the community lost their trust   ...

(2007   ...Ian-Diana  ... etc.)

You forgot the trouble?
Reminder: http://www.michaeldolan.com/1102

Thursday, February 14th, 2008
“I told you so” in order? Roy Fielding resigns from OpenSolaris



Some choice quotes:

Sun didn’t just make vague statements to me about OpenSolaris;
they made promises about it being an open development project. That’s
the only way they could get someone like me to provide free labor for
their benefit. Given Sun’s recent track record on breaking promises,
another one doesn’t surprise me at all.




THAT was lost share holder value.




%martin




On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 12:38 PM, James Mansion
ja...@mansionfamily.plus.com wrote:
 Simon Phipps wrote:

 Ths thing I find interesting in the article, and indeed in many of your
 statements, is that you show absolutely no sign of self-doubt about whether
 open sourcing everything you could actually destroyed shareholder value and
 drove Sun down the toilet.

 That's because it did not. See the penultimate paragraph of
 http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/



 I don't understand. I'm looking at 'we've achieved some amazing things ...
 despite the success of Sun's open source business, it still wasn't enough to
 rescue Sun'.

 That looks self-congratulatory to me, not doubting. I'm not sure how the
 open sourcing was successful for Sun shareholders.  Definitely successful
 for Red Hat shareholders though.  Where's the bit that says 'maybe embracing
 open source was a huge mistake and we screwed up'?  Its one thing to embrace
 open source by consuming it, but embracing it by taking a huge IP investment
 and chucking over the wall? (Well, mostly ...)

 The whole strategy seems to have been predicated on 'the enemy of my enemy
 is my friend', presumably based on a massive chip-on-shoulder brought about
 by NT eating your market in CAD and financial workstations.

 Hopefully Larry's management team will see that there IS some market for a
 not-Windows alternative for PC-clone workstations and that the consistency,
 stability of interfaces and compatibility that defined Solaris are a
 differentiator that can make it more attractive to OEMs than Linux variants.
 But I'm not hopeful.

 James

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

I agree with that summary of real events and facts.
Hence I decided to post everything inline:


http://www.michaeldolan.com/1102


Thursday, February 14th, 2008
“I told you so” in order? Roy Fielding resigns from OpenSolaris

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2008-February/004488.html

In my opinion, Roy came up short in fully describing the issue, but he
did a great job focusing on the thread at hand regarding OpenSolaris
and trademark. The fact is, Sun is not an open source community or
development player. Sun wants all the benefits of saying it’s all
about open and freedom, yet, Sun does something completely different.
Nearly 3 years into OpenSolaris, the development is still behind the
firewall inside Sun. Nearly 3 years into OpenSolaris, open source
community developers would have to get Sun engineers to agree to
accept code. Nearly 3 years into OpenSolaris, developers have to
contribute copyright co-ownership to the corporation, Sun, in order to
contribute to OpenSolaris. Nearly 3 years into OpenSolaris, there are
still essential parts of the Solaris OS that are still not opened
under a free license (they call it the OpenSolaris Binary License… aka
proprietary). I could go on and on… but let me refer to Roy’s view
below.

Will Ian be next to resign? I can’t believe he really believes this is
the right execution of what sounded like an “open” strategy 2 years
ago… I knew better, but many fell for the bedtime story that sounded
sweet. Some will still argue that Sun’s great, open, etc., but they’re
brainwashed; anyone who really knows what’s going on should not be
fooled at this point in the game. “Open”Solaris is an OS that is
created by 1 company, with no outside input or control and has a code
repo on opensolaris.org… besides that, what has it done to contribute
or help any community of users?

Some choice quotes:

Sun didn’t just make vague statements to me about OpenSolaris;
they made promises about it being an open development project. That’s
the only way they could get someone like me to provide free labor for
their benefit. Given Sun’s recent track record on breaking promises,
another one doesn’t surprise me at all.

…

Most of the stuff in that letter about Sun’s responsibilities in
regard to “International Trademark Law” is nothing more than
snow being tossed in the eyes of technical folks who don’t have
access to their own lawyers.

…

In fact, if it weren’t for the extremely pig-headed way in which
Indiana was thrust on the community as Ian’s private domain, it could
have easily been a unifying path for
all of the distros. It could have given them a gate within
OpenSolaris in which to collaborate, instead of doing all of their
work in separate communities outside OpenSolaris.

Indiana is just another private marketing team within Sun that is
making private decisions about “OpenSolaris” that aren’t even in line
with the internal processes of Solaris Engineering, let alone the
published governance model of the OGB.

…

Sun agreed that “OpenSolaris” would be governed by the community
and yet has refused, in every step along the way, to cede any real
control over the software produced or the way it is produced, and
continues to make private decisions every day that are later promoted
as decisions for this thing we call OpenSolaris. Rather than be honest
about it and restructure the community to correspond to this MySolaris
style of over-the-wall development, Sun prefers to lie to the external
community members while ignoring their input.

…

This well is poisoned; the company has consumed its own future and
any pretense that the projects will ever govern themselves (as opposed
to being governed by whatever pointy-haired boss is hiding behind the
scenes) is now a joke.

…

There’s nothing particularly wrong with that choice — it is a
perfectly valid open source model for corporations that don’t need
active community participation. IMO, the resulting code tends to suck
a lot more than community-driven projects, but it is still open
source.

In any case, I am done with it. I hereby resign my status as a
Member of the OpenSolaris Community, effective immediately.




2010/4/5 Мартин Бохниг   (Martin Bochnig) mar...@martux.org:
 James: For 3 pretty ROI-worthless aquisitions alone (Cobalt, STK and
 MySQL) Sun's top-management spent 10 Billion USD (ten thousand
 millions!!!).
 Every time the behaved like kids: At hopelessly overheated markets -
 instead of selling something - they bought! Obviously the paid way
 overpriced amounts for much too little counter-valueadd.


 If you closely watched the NYSE charts over the years you should know,
 that these 10 Billions are more $$$, than Sun ever managed to generate
 as a profit in all these years summed up.

 To me that appears to be more related to Sun's liquidity problems.
 And those were indeed severe management faults at the HIGHEST levels.

 Other errors certainly include a pricing

Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

James, here you see that the opposite of your claims appears to be more true :



http://www.ratliff.net/blog/2008/02/14/not-with-a-bang-but-a-whimper/

Roy Fielding[1] finally quit the OpenSolaris community today, see his
resignation letter[2]. The kettle finally boiled over and the
realization come to many (but not all) that Sun is publishing their
Solaris code for marketing purposes, rather than creating an
independent, community-led, open source project with the ability to
make real decisions.

It seemed so promising at first: “[T]hey made promises about it being
an open development project. … Sun gave up its right to make arbitrary
decisions regarding the phrase ‘OpenSolaris’ as part of its public
agreement with the community in the form of the Charter. That was a
self-imposed restriction in exchange for the benefits of
community-driven development, freely made, and cannot be changed
except in accordance with the charter itself (for example, by amending
or dissolving the charter).” (excerpt from Roy Fielding’s resignation
letter) But it was a sham: “The charter has therefore been violated. …
Sun agreed that ‘OpenSolaris’ would be governed by the community and
yet has refused, in every step along the way, to cede any real control
over the software produced or the way it is produced, and continues to
make private decisions every day that are later promoted as decisions
for this thing we call OpenSolaris.” (excerpt from Roy Fielding’s
resignation letter



2010/4/5 Мартин Бохниг   (Martin Bochnig) mar...@martux.org:
 I agree with that summary of real events and facts.
 Hence I decided to post everything inline:


 http://www.michaeldolan.com/1102


 Thursday, February 14th, 2008
 “I told you so” in order? Roy Fielding resigns from OpenSolaris

 http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/ogb-discuss/2008-February/004488.html

 In my opinion, Roy came up short in fully describing the issue, but he
 did a great job focusing on the thread at hand regarding OpenSolaris
 and trademark. The fact is, Sun is not an open source community or
 development player. Sun wants all the benefits of saying it’s all
 about open and freedom, yet, Sun does something completely different.
 Nearly 3 years into OpenSolaris, the development is still behind the
 firewall inside Sun. Nearly 3 years into OpenSolaris, open source
 community developers would have to get Sun engineers to agree to
 accept code. Nearly 3 years into OpenSolaris, developers have to
 contribute copyright co-ownership to the corporation, Sun, in order to
 contribute to OpenSolaris. Nearly 3 years into OpenSolaris, there are
 still essential parts of the Solaris OS that are still not opened
 under a free license (they call it the OpenSolaris Binary License… aka
 proprietary). I could go on and on… but let me refer to Roy’s view
 below.

 Will Ian be next to resign? I can’t believe he really believes this is
 the right execution of what sounded like an “open” strategy 2 years
 ago… I knew better, but many fell for the bedtime story that sounded
 sweet. Some will still argue that Sun’s great, open, etc., but they’re
 brainwashed; anyone who really knows what’s going on should not be
 fooled at this point in the game. “Open”Solaris is an OS that is
 created by 1 company, with no outside input or control and has a code
 repo on opensolaris.org… besides that, what has it done to contribute
 or help any community of users?

 Some choice quotes:

    Sun didn’t just make vague statements to me about OpenSolaris;
 they made promises about it being an open development project. That’s
 the only way they could get someone like me to provide free labor for
 their benefit. Given Sun’s recent track record on breaking promises,
 another one doesn’t surprise me at all.

 …

    Most of the stuff in that letter about Sun’s responsibilities in
    regard to “International Trademark Law” is nothing more than
    snow being tossed in the eyes of technical folks who don’t have
    access to their own lawyers.

 …

    In fact, if it weren’t for the extremely pig-headed way in which
 Indiana was thrust on the community as Ian’s private domain, it could
 have easily been a unifying path for
    all of the distros. It could have given them a gate within
 OpenSolaris in which to collaborate, instead of doing all of their
 work in separate communities outside OpenSolaris.

    Indiana is just another private marketing team within Sun that is
 making private decisions about “OpenSolaris” that aren’t even in line
 with the internal processes of Solaris Engineering, let alone the
 published governance model of the OGB.

 …

    Sun agreed that “OpenSolaris” would be governed by the community
 and yet has refused, in every step along the way, to cede any real
 control over the software produced or the way it is produced, and
 continues to make private decisions every day that are later promoted
 as decisions for this thing we call OpenSolaris. Rather than be honest
 about it and restructure

Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?


Joerg Schilling wrote:
You are correct: without OpenSourcing Solaris, Sun would have been in trouble 
earlier.
What evidence do you have for this?  I know there have been externally 
sourced code contributions, but how much of it needed source rather than 
the stable ABIs, and how material is it really? More to the point - what 
revenue did it generate?
 So you can answer your question I'm not sure how the open sourcing 
was successful for Sun shareholders. with a _yes_, as it helped to raise the 
Sun stock price.
  
Very briefly, yes, but since then I think it hasn't materially helped 
shift anything that generated revenue for Sun, and Sun's stock hardly 
trended up on its recent improving quality.
I further believe that a closer collaboration with the cummunity (as intended 
by Sun in September 2004) would have given the additional momentum for Sun to 
push it into the win zone for a longer time.
  
Well you can believe that, but belief in that is behind a lot of the 
open source hype, and one thing that's hard to find is concrete evidence 
of how it translated into a sound business plan and revenue.

This is however a lost chance and we cannot roll back time...

  
Indeed, but we can try to learn from it, and I think questioning how and 
when open source is helpful to a technology creator is worthwhile.


Sun's position was fundamentally different to Red Hat and post-NetWare 
SUSE, since they owned the things they were giving away, and had done 
most of the development (or had paid for it).


I think its worth considering what they could have done differently and 
why. I can't help thinking that they would have had a better chance by 
going in completely the other direction and using their grip on Java and 
Open Office (and mysql, eventually) to try to cut off Linux's air supply 
and stunt its datacentre growth until Solaris on X64 could get a decent 
foothold, but its all conjecture, and it would have accepted handing a 
potential short-term gain to Microsoft.


James

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?


Мартин Бохниг (Martin Bochnig) wrote:

Solaris code for marketing purposes, rather than creating an
independent, community-led, open source project with the ability to
make real decisions.
  
I think you're missing the point.  What is the benefit to Sun 
shareholders to have Solaris so open, really?  Simple question - where 
does the money come from?


And yes  - they could have engaged and formed more of a community.  
Quite true.  But I don't accept that its necessarily relevant, unless 
you really think that Sun would fire 90% of its engineers and expect 
most of the development to come from the community and run lean and mean 
as a distro creator like Red Hat, with a few high profile engineers to 
show they have commitment and at least some core skills.


Whether or not OpenSolaris has a community or not is all but irrelevant 
so far as I can see because either way its not a revenue generator, and 
what Sun needed was revenue.


James

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010/4/5 Мартин Бохниг   (Martin Bochnig) mar...@martux.org:
 James: For 3 pretty ROI-worthless aquisitions alone (Cobalt, STK and
 MySQL) Sun's top-management spent 10 Billion USD (ten thousand
 millions!!!).
 Every time the behaved like kids: At hopelessly overheated markets -
 instead of selling something - they bought! Obviously the paid way
 overpriced amounts for much too little counter-valueadd.


 If you closely watched the NYSE charts over the years you should know,
 that these 10 Billions are more $$$, than Sun ever managed to generate
 as a profit in all these years summed up.

 To me that appears to be more related to Sun's liquidity problems.
 And those were indeed severe management faults at the HIGHEST levels.



During a recession, a company should cheaply acquire what it can get.
During overheated times, one should sell a few sub-enterprises for lots of cash.


Sun did the exact opposite: In both overheated times (2000 and
2005till2007) and in both recessions (after 911 and now).

Effectively they spent their gold reserves for worthless ROI.
Which brought them into a shortage of cash which could no longer
simply be compensated through mass-layoffs. At the end they were
forced to give themselves away for a few pennies!


p.s. Another aspect of their strategic mistakes was, that they focused
too much on a single market, while neglecting the rest. When that
single market suddenly collapsed (US market, and there only the TOP
500 enterprises and banks), they had a problem.


Also, they produced wonderful Ad´s but did not distribute them
sufficiently. And they didnt use enough distribution channels for
their  hardware. When I wanted to spen unbelievable EUR 1900,- for a
pretty minimalistic Sun Blade 150 with 128MB memory (!) in 2003, it
took them 2 or 3 weeks until I had it. And I could only order it via
FAX. Compare this to how Dell does it!




%mab
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010/4/5 James Mansion ja...@mansionfamily.plus.com:
 Мартин Бохниг (Martin Bochnig) wrote:

 Solaris code for marketing purposes, rather than creating an
 independent, community-led, open source project with the ability to
 make real decisions.


 I think you're missing the point.  What is the benefit to Sun shareholders
 to have Solaris so open, really?  Simple question - where does the money
 come from?




No, you are missing the point.
The idea was to provide a free and open AllInOne A to Z software
platform stack, that would be able to compete with LinUX and to win
the OS battle.

This would have increased hardware sales and sales of
service/maintenance/support contracts.

There the cash would have come from.
See, how IBM makes a living?




%martin
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010/4/5 Мартин Бохниг   (Martin Bochnig) mar...@martux.org:
 2010/4/5 Мартин Бохниг   (Martin Bochnig) mar...@martux.org:
 James: For 3 pretty ROI-worthless aquisitions alone (Cobalt, STK and
 MySQL) Sun's top-management spent 10 Billion USD (ten thousand
 millions!!!).
 Every time the behaved like kids: At hopelessly overheated markets -
 instead of selling something - they bought! Obviously the paid way
 overpriced amounts for much too little counter-valueadd.


 If you closely watched the NYSE charts over the years you should know,
 that these 10 Billions are more $$$, than Sun ever managed to generate
 as a profit in all these years summed up.

 To me that appears to be more related to Sun's liquidity problems.
 And those were indeed severe management faults at the HIGHEST levels.



 During a recession, a company should cheaply acquire what it can get.
 During overheated times, one should sell a few sub-enterprises for lots of 
 cash.


 Sun did the exact opposite: In both overheated times (2000 and
 2005till2007) and in both recessions (after 911 and now).

 Effectively they spent their gold reserves for worthless ROI.
 Which brought them into a shortage of cash which could no longer
 simply be compensated through mass-layoffs. At the end they were
 forced to give themselves away for a few pennies!


 p.s. Another aspect of their strategic mistakes was, that they focused
 too much on a single market, while neglecting the rest. When that
 single market suddenly collapsed (US market, and there only the TOP
 500 enterprises and banks), they had a problem.


 Also, they produced wonderful Ad´s but did not distribute them
 sufficiently. And they didnt use enough distribution channels for
 their  hardware. When I wanted to spent unbelievable EUR 1900,- for a
 pretty minimalistic Sun Blade 150 with 128MB memory (!) in 2003, it
 took them 2 or 3 weeks until I had it. And I could only order it via
 FAX. Compare this to how Dell does it!



Now I recall the rest.
This price was pre-VAT!!!
Like all the prices on their site until circa 2007 or 2008!

Therefore add 16 % German VAT to these EUR 1900 for a humble Blade 150!
(Besides: Meanwhile German VAT is at 19%).




 %mab

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-05 Thread Simon Phipps


On Apr 5, 2010, at 14:19, Matthias Pfützner wrote:

 Therefore the idea
 to opensource the software has never been intended to create additional
 revenue from it, but to generate mind-share with the developer community, so
 that in FUTURE more ISVs, or big software-companies or even smaller mid-market
 software companies would again prefer Solaris as the basis for their
 apps. And, yes, that worked! Not in the way many hoped it would, but yes, it
 generated more mind-share, and with that additional HW-sales.

Exactly right. As it turned out it was also comfortably profitable. Sun's 
terminal problems lay elsewhere.

S.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-05 Thread Alan Coopersmith

Volker A. Brandt wrote:
 Hmmm... I have seen a number of OGB members post in the various lists.
 What do you want them to do?  Post yes, there will be 2010.03 every
 day?

None of the new OGB members are involved with the 2010.03 release.
People need to remember the OGB manages the community, not the distro.
The distro comes out of Project Indiana and various internal teams.

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?


Мартин Бохниг (Martin Bochnig) wrote:

No, you are missing the point.
The idea was to provide a free and open AllInOne A to Z software
platform stack, that would be able to compete with LinUX and to win
the OS battle.
  

Then that was a mind-numbingly stupid strategy - because:
a) it would take so long that Sun would be out of business first (oh, 
look ...)

b) I'm not sure that's what customers really want
c) having the best free stack is pointless without revenue

This would have increased hardware sales and sales of
service/maintenance/support contracts.
  
So - we've given up trying to be like Microsoft, let's try and be like 
Red Hat?


The difference, however, is massive: look at how much IP Sun created, 
and how much Red Hat create. Red Hat are canny in employing high profile 
(and high influence) Linux hackers, but how much do they actually fix or 
write? They look good on stats next to other Linux collaborators, but 
next to Sun's Solaris investment?


If you want Solaris to be Linux then say so. To me, a good 
differentiator was that Sun had leadership, authority, and resources. 
And you need those things to avoid tinkering on the periphery, and to 
enable doing hard or just nasty stuff. Unfortunately, two of those 
things seem to have caused what some people think is an epic fail in 
community engagement.  Trouble is, I'd rather Sun had those things and 
could drive Solaris than that they became great community members and 
mere peers.


To you, maybe Open Solaris is an opportunity to play at being an OS 
provider.  But to an OS user like me it was a way to observe the process 
and see what's coming - and get an affordable and reasonably current 
release based on the observation rather than marketing getting feature 
complete for an 'industrial' release. Whether or not source code was 
available to anyone outside Sun is largely irrelevant to me *providing* 
the binary bits are available in a way that would enable repackaging in 
a way like Belinix or Nexenta, which do provide refreshing alternatives 
of approach. I do think there's plenty of value to be had from openness 
that doesn't cede control or even necessarily expose sources - its just 
a shame that there has been some severe issues with expectation 
management and/or execution in the case of Open Solaris.

There the cash would have come from.
See, how IBM makes a living?
  
I don't see DB2 or AIX or the OS/400 or mainframe stuff being free. 
Sure, IBM sell services too, but they don't give away their IP. Looks 
like they're happy to milk Sun's tho.


I'm not saying you can't make a moderate open source business selling 
services on Other People's Stuff.  I'm concerned about what happens when 
you're the main author, and carry all the RD costs, and all the 
pre-market investment risk.  Bear in mind that the time delay between 
the engineering investment and the development technology risk both 
conspire to mean that you have to get a big return to pay for that RD - 
and if the stuff is free then the other guys you've let into the playing 
field as peers don't have those costs or risks to recoup. Or you can 
embrace the emperor's new clothes and develop in the open, and lose 
control and any USP.


Maybe Sun could have gone all out for community and given up control - 
and fired 90% of their engineers to reduce costs in line with a new 
business model where they're packagers and Innovation Happens Elsewhere? 
Is that really what you wanted?  Could that build ZFS? Java? Its usually 
bad enough having bike shed discussions internally.


Sometimes authoritative leadership with resources is necessary - compare 
and contrast the Debian ecosystem before and after Mr Shuttleworth's 
intervention.



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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?


Matthias Pfützner wrote:

You (James Mansion) wrote:
  
if you look at Sun's annual earnings documents, you might notice, that most of

Sun's revenue and especially margin was generated by big iron hardware.
  

Indeed I had.

And the money coming in from software was mostly licebnses to OEMs (think
Java), as far as those numbers have ever been published. So, I'm a bit
interpreting stuff here.
  
I agree. And I think that revenue did not improve materially from open 
sourcing that IP - while the move to open source surely gives up a 
degree of control.

apps. And, yes, that worked! Not in the way many hoped it would, but yes, it
generated more mind-share, and with that additional HW-sales.
  
Microsoft have never had a problem with ISV mindshare because they made 
things cheap and accessible. Free is just one form of cheap from that 
perspective. I absolutely believe that Microsoft's success is not nearly 
so much related to monopolistic practices as to their early ability to 
court ISVs and their ability to use ABIs (like VBXs and OLE controls) to 
create a marketplace for small ISVs. Microsoft took their eye off that 
ball a few years back but they seem to have recovered.


Maybe I'm just an old fart but I recall my dismay at the Byte headlines 
that OO had failed and components had won. I was an early C++ adopter 
and it was galling - because it was true. How many businesses ever got 
anywhere with aftermarket controls on any of the X toolkits? Maybe Qt 
will create an ecosystem - I don't know. But I think the lesson was that 
open standards don't create that sort of ISV-friendly environment on 
their own and the existence of such a market does wonders. Look at the 
iPhone app shop. Same thing again.

So, Oracle now is the second biggest SW-company of the world, they KNOW how to
monetize SW, and I hope and am sure, we will see some big monetizations coming
out of the assest that Oracle got with the acquisition of Sun. And that in
turn will again allow to let OpenSolaris live as well as Java. Larry stated it
cleary: It's not needed to produce margin or revenue directly, as long as it
helps generate revenue and margin over-all!
  
Well, I hope so. I really want Solaris and Java to survive and thrive - 
hopefully in a form that I can afford.  I don't want or need the source 
code for that to happen and I don't believe anyone outside of Oracle 
really needs it either - I think 'free as in beer' is enough, though as 
I've said to Martin its advantageous if the delivery is in a form that 
allows custom distributions to be created. Time was we all linked our 
kernels from objects, what was wrong with that? Modularity is the key - 
not an ability to run cc.  And personally I'm entirely happy to pay (a 
modest amount) for security fixes and upgrades.


I'm not questioning whether its worthwhile courting a hobbyist or SME 
market or even universities. I *am* questioning whether the full monty 
open source is necessary - or particularly helpful for long term 
viability, given what the release costs you.


James

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?


Simon Phipps wrote:

Exactly right. As it turned out it was also comfortably profitable. Sun's 
terminal problems lay elsewhere.

  
Which bit of the last financial statement shows evidence of this - that 
the profits came from open sourcing, not merely from software that was 
open source before Sun bought it or that was already being licensed 
before it was open source?


(Hmm - and in mysql's case, we could also ask 'how much more profitable 
than spending the billion on gov't bonds'?)


James

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-05 Thread Harry Putnam

Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de
writes:

  more ISVs,

ISV ?

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-05 Thread bsd

If it's the definition you're looking for, it is independent software vendor.
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-05 Thread Paul Gress


On 04/ 5/10 09:43 PM, Harry Putnam wrote:

Matthias PfÃ¼tznermatth...@pfuetzner.de
writes:

   

  more ISVs,
 

ISV ?

   



Independent Software Vendor
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Hello Uros!


 Officially they published that they will continue to support Java,
 OpenSolaris, NetBeans,Oracle and Independent Oracle UGs

Well, they said they will integrate NetBeans, but I know what you mean.

 but reality is
 completely different. They do notinteract with us (Leaders, at least) as
 Teresa did all the time, they do not send *any*promotional material, some
 of UGs has to have some money to pay for their meetingspaces, and they do
 not reply to questions asked via mailing-lists (except developers thatdid
 it before and was employed by SUN).

This is not a good situation, but I would not call it strategic decision.
They need to figure out how to continue working with UGs, and they need
to do it soon because many people are insecure now.

 I do not know how to explain this
 ituationbut ignoring or not supporting UGs.

Fair enough, but I would give them a bit more time.

 By the way, it is nice to hear that you are alive :).

Yes, thanks!


Regards -- VOlker
-- 

Volker A. Brandt  Consulting and Support for Sun Solaris
Brandt  Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: v...@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513  Schuhgröße: 45
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Hello HeCSa!


 I (we) sent emails to the assigned Oracle employee to deal with the
 communities, but didn't receive an answer in more than a month, or maybe
 more time.

Have you tried emailing Jimm Grisanzio, or someone from the OGB?

This sounds more like a communications problem.


Regards -- VOlker
-- 

Volker A. Brandt  Consulting and Support for Sun Solaris
Brandt  Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: v...@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513  Schuhgröße: 45
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Martin Bochnig

On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Volker A. Brandt v...@bb-c.de wrote:
 Hello HeCSa!


 I (we) sent emails to the assigned Oracle employee to deal with the
 communities, but didn't receive an answer in more than a month, or maybe
 more time.

 Have you tried emailing Jimm Grisanzio, or someone from the OGB?

 This sounds more like a communications problem.


 Regards -- VOlker



Now you are getting too Oracle-friendly.
While it is indeed nonsense to bash Oracle based on rumors and FUD,
this time you are going too far to the opposite end (not every of
their PR-statements might turn out to be the truth).
Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
logics from above? How would you?

Another thing which makes me really wonder is all the silence that
(does not) go(es) out from the newly elected OGB. And they don´t need
to be afraid of losing their jobs, because almost all of them either
never had a Sun position, or quit Sun long ago. Why this silence from
*them*??

Back to the OpenSolaris 2010.03 delay: If really just a technical
stopper is the reason for the delay, then it could be a thing as
simple as converting all vendor and license strings from Sun to
Oracle. On caiman this was webref´ed last week. Plus getting a fancy
Oracle backdrop in red, plus a new Grub- and bootup- screen etc, plus
the opensolaris.com website   ... etc.

The question is IF. And WHY all the silence and secrecy??



%martin
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Ian Collins


On 04/ 4/10 08:41 AM, Peter Jones wrote:

I have a question..


So you should have started a new thread!


I complete boot failure (hung on blue startup) on b133 updated...could not 
figure out what happened.However looking back I was using a flash drive usb 
which I removed before it failed.Could this be the same bug?
   
Try booting from your live CD, import rpool and add another entry in 
/rpool/boot/grub/menu.lst without the console=graphics option.  From mine:


title OpenSolaris Development snv_133 Debug
findroot (pool_rpool,0,a)
bootfs rpool/ROOT/opensolaris
kernel$ /platform/i86pc/kernel/$ISADIR/unix -B $ZFS-BOOTFS
module$ /platform/i86pc/$ISADIR/boot_archive

and select that on boot.  Then you should see where it sticks (I bet 
it's a bad boot archive).


--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Hello Martin!


 this time you are going too far to the opposite end (not every of
 their PR-statements might turn out to be the truth).

Of course.  This is called marketing. :-)

 Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
 open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
 logics from above? How would you?

1. They have worked on the takover for almost a year.
2. It is not clear whether he was laid off or decided to quit. And
   I certainly wouldn't know.

 Another thing which makes me really wonder is all the silence that
 (does not) go(es) out from the newly elected OGB. And they don´t need
 to be afraid of losing their jobs, because almost all of them either
 never had a Sun position, or quit Sun long ago. Why this silence from
 *them*??

Hmmm... I have seen a number of OGB members post in the various lists.
What do you want them to do?  Post yes, there will be 2010.03 every
day?

 Back to the OpenSolaris 2010.03 delay: If really just a technical
 stopper is the reason for the delay, then it could be a thing as
 simple as converting all vendor and license strings from Sun to
 Oracle. On caiman this was webref´ed last week. Plus getting a fancy
 Oracle backdrop in red, plus a new Grub- and bootup- screen etc, plus
 the opensolaris.com website   ... etc.

Hmmm... I am glad I can change the backdrop. :-)

 The question is IF. And WHY all the silence and secrecy??

Because they have other things to do?


Regards -- Volker
-- 

Volker A. Brandt  Consulting and Support for Sun Solaris
Brandt  Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: v...@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513  Schuhgröße: 45
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Peter Tribble

2010/4/4 Мартин Бохниг   (Martin Bochnig) mar...@martux.org:
 On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Volker A. Brandt v...@bb-c.de wrote:
 Hello HeCSa!


 I (we) sent emails to the assigned Oracle employee to deal with the
 communities, but didn't receive an answer in more than a month, or maybe
 more time.

 Have you tried emailing Jimm Grisanzio, or someone from the OGB?

 This sounds more like a communications problem.


 Regards -- VOlker



 Now you are getting too Oracle-friendly.
 While it is indeed nonsense to bash Oracle based on rumors and FUD,
 this time you are going too far to the opposite end (not every of
 their PR-statements might turn out to be the truth).

Oracle haven't made many statements so far, but I have yet to see
one that was untrue.

 Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
 open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
 logics from above? How would you?

I believe Simon quit. And Oracle have kept most of the engineering
organization intact; development work seems to continue to be active.

 Another thing which makes me really wonder is all the silence that
 (does not) go(es) out from the newly elected OGB. And they don´t need
 to be afraid of losing their jobs, because almost all of them either
 never had a Sun position, or quit Sun long ago. Why this silence from
 *them*??

Frankly, because we don't know either. And we've managed to get more
information and commitments out of Oracle than I think they would have
issued on their own. Also, the new OGB has been in office maybe three
days, and we haven't yet had a formal meeting.

 Back to the OpenSolaris 2010.03 delay: If really just a technical
 stopper is the reason for the delay, then it could be a thing as
 simple as converting all vendor and license strings from Sun to
 Oracle. On caiman this was webref´ed last week. Plus getting a fancy
 Oracle backdrop in red, plus a new Grub- and bootup- screen etc, plus
 the opensolaris.com website   ... etc.

 The question is IF. And WHY all the silence and secrecy??

Sun had a corporate culture that was very open and emphasized
communication. (Too much talk, too little profit, to be honest)

Oracle's corporate culture seems to be entirely the opposite. And not
only is the culture orders of magnitude more secretive, but I think the
newly acquired Sun employees are still adjusting.

I have no more idea what the release date is than anybody else. But
there have been absolutely clear public commitments that there will be
a release, and the only official statement on the date I've seen is that it
will be in the first half of calendar year 2010. (If people have been paying
attention they may have seen the term 2010.H1 used in places.)

-- 
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http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

 (If people have been paying
 attention they may have seen the term 2010.H1 used in places.)

Aaah, so that's what it means.  Thanks Peter.


Regards -- Volker
-- 

Volker A. Brandt  Consulting and Support for Sun Solaris
Brandt  Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: v...@bb-c.de
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Ken Mays

Hi Sarah,

Due to some security concerns and other issues, I'd flipped a coin
and await the forthcoming snv_b138 kernel release.

As for any independent distro releases between now and before snv_b138, my 
opinion is to wait on doing any major system upgrades, 'production' related 
migrations, or journalistic reviews until snv_138 is officially released. 

This is for mainly commented for current users using OpenSolaris for 'very' 
high-end production-grade audio/video workstations or high-availability servers 
with several TBs of in-flux data. 

If you are having ANY major issues with a prior OpenSolaris release, just give 
OSOL 2010.03 until April 16th or await the snv_138 kernel release.

You'll be 'very' glad you did.

~ Ken Mays
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Uros Nedic


 this time you are going too far to the opposite end (not every of
  their PR-statements might turn out to be the truth).
 
 Of course.  This is called marketing. :-)
 

This is called bad marketing. Once you promise something you have tofulfill 
it, otherwise nobody would trust you if you again promise something.
  Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
  open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
  logics from above? How would you?
 
 1. They have worked on the takover for almost a year.
 2. It is not clear whether he was laid off or decided to quit. And
I certainly wouldn't know.
 
  Another thing which makes me really wonder is all the silence that
  (does not) go(es) out from the newly elected OGB. And they don´t need
  to be afraid of losing their jobs, because almost all of them either
  never had a Sun position, or quit Sun long ago. Why this silence from
  *them*??
 
 Hmmm... I have seen a number of OGB members post in the various lists.
 What do you want them to do?  Post yes, there will be 2010.03 every
 day?
 
I'm speaking with Jim very frequently and he even doesn't have enough fundsto 
send me few OpenSolaris Bibles so we could have one in each branch andfor our 
Honored members.
  Back to the OpenSolaris 2010.03 delay: If really just a technical
  stopper is the reason for the delay, then it could be a thing as
  simple as converting all vendor and license strings from Sun to
  Oracle. On caiman this was webref´ed last week. Plus getting a fancy
  Oracle backdrop in red, plus a new Grub- and bootup- screen etc, plus
  the opensolaris.com website   ... etc.
 
 Hmmm... I am glad I can change the backdrop. :-)
 
  The question is IF. And WHY all the silence and secrecy??
 
 Because they have other things to do?
At least ORACLE could publish one Community-oriented statement tellingeveryone 
what is going on, and what will happen in near future. It'd consumenot more 
than one hour writing such statement.

 
 
 Regards -- Volker
 -- 
 
 Volker A. Brandt  Consulting and Support for Sun Solaris
 Brandt  Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
 Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: v...@bb-c.de
 Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513  Schuhgröße: 45
 Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
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Regards,Uros  
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Uros Nedic


 
 I have no more idea what the release date is than anybody else. But
 there have been absolutely clear public commitments that there will be
 a release, and the only official statement on the date I've seen is that it
 will be in the first half of calendar year 2010. (If people have been paying
 attention they may have seen the term 2010.H1 used in places.)

If ORACLE can do it, I believe that majority of community would be happyif you 
mark Releases like 2010.Qx where x is member of following set -{1, 2, 3, 4}.
Uros
 
 -- 
 -Peter Tribble
 http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

You (?? ??   (Martin Bochnig)) wrote:
 Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
 open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
 logics from above? How would you?

He left on his own:

   http://twitter.com/webmink/status/10861922797

   http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/

As he left on March 8th, and the change to Oracle in the UK was on March 1st,
it's absolutely clear, that he decided on his own to leave Oracle. He had a
job at Oracle, otherwhise he would have left BEFORE March 1st! So, do not TURN
truth to FUD, like you try to do for days, if not weeks lately!

 Another thing which makes me really wonder is all the silence that
 (does not) go(es) out from the newly elected OGB. And they don´t need
 to be afraid of losing their jobs, because almost all of them either
 never had a Sun position, or quit Sun long ago. Why this silence from
 *them*??

They are NOT all Oracle people, so it's up to THEM to decide how and what to
tell when...

BTW: Simon Phipps is PART of the new OGB!

 Back to the OpenSolaris 2010.03 delay: If really just a technical
 stopper is the reason for the delay, then it could be a thing as
 simple as converting all vendor and license strings from Sun to
 Oracle. On caiman this was webref´ed last week. Plus getting a fancy
 Oracle backdrop in red, plus a new Grub- and bootup- screen etc, plus
 the opensolaris.com website   ... etc.

So, what's your point here? That needs to be done! Regardless of delay in
OSOL2010.0X...

 The question is IF. And WHY all the silence and secrecy??

That's the question! Yes! But here, no-one can answer, because, as stated
multiple times, the people here simply don't know!

 Matthias
-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Erst als die Faschisten
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | die Comics zensierten,
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | wurde mir klar, wie übel
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread HeCSa


Hi, Volker!

On 04/ 4/10 06:12 AM, Volker A. Brandt wrote:

Hello HeCSa!


   

I (we) sent emails to the assigned Oracle employee to deal with the
communities, but didn't receive an answer in more than a month, or maybe
more time.
 

Have you tried emailing Jimm Grisanzio, or someone from the OGB?

This sounds more like a communications problem.
   


No, because I understand Jim is not who can send us CD's and/or 
minibooks for our next Latinamerican Installation Festival (we sent, 
from the Venezuela, Colombia, and Argentina, for exampe, several emails 
about this), or who is in charge of sending us news about the position 
of Oracle about the UGs.

Maybe I am wrong. Am I?
Thanks, and best regards,

HeCSa



Regards -- VOlker
   

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Simon Phipps

It's been an interesting does he take sugar experience watching the 
conversation about me; I thought I'd interject with a link to a story that has 
correct information: 

http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/former-sun-open-source-officer-joins-osi-board-109

As for Oracle:  Oracle are famous for their clearly-defined strategy of not 
making statements about unreleased products. I anticipate that most advance 
information will come in the form of actions rather than words. 

S.


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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Martin Bochnig

On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Simon Phipps webm...@opensolaris.org wrote:
 It's been an interesting does he take sugar experience watching the 
 conversation about me; I thought I'd interject with a link to a story that 
 has correct information:

 http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/former-sun-open-source-officer-joins-osi-board-109

 As for Oracle:  Oracle are famous for their clearly-defined strategy of not 
 making statements about unreleased products. I anticipate that most advance 
 information will come in the form of actions rather than words.

 S.




Hi Simon,

I would like to apologize, that I did not recognize back then (2007),
how much more I should have trusted you.

Thank you for being a good one and for your achievements!
I regret, that I did not see it before.


GOOD LUCK to you on all scales!!!



%martin
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

Martin,

sorry, yes, you're right, I didn't want to discredit you...

There's been too much FUD here lately, thererfore I might be over-reacting!

Sorry again!

  Matthias

You (?? ??   (Martin Bochnig)) wrote:
 2010/4/4 Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de:
  You (?? ??   (Martin Bochnig)) wrote:
  Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
  open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
  logics from above? How would you?
 
  He left on his own:
 
    http://twitter.com/webmink/status/10861922797
 
    http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/
 
  As he left on March 8th, and the change to Oracle in the UK was on March 
  1st,
  it's absolutely clear, that he decided on his own to leave Oracle. He had a
  job at Oracle, otherwhise he would have left BEFORE March 1st!
 
 
 Sorry for this (single) point of having been misinformed.
 I got my Info from a (new) OGB member and - given his trustworthyness
 - believed him without further verifying (in contrast to my usual
 behaviour).
 
 
 
 
  So, do not TURN
  truth to FUD, like you try to do for days, if not weeks lately!
 [snip]
  Matthias
  --
  Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Erst als die Faschisten
  Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | die Comics zensierten,
  D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | wurde mir klar, wie übel
  Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | diese Leute waren. 
  Fellini
 
 
 
 
 DITTO!
 
 Interesting.
 I ???
 
 You must be confusing me with somebody else.
  I hardly posted, and if I did, then it was not related to this subject.
 
 You have no URL??
 You corrected me in one aspect. That´s good.
 But be so friendly and do your homework before writing something like this:
 
  So, do not TURN
  truth to FUD, like you try to do for days, if not weeks lately!
 [snip]
  Matthias
 
 
 
 You cannot mean me.
 
 
 Trink ´ne Tasse Kaffee und denk drueber nach.
 

-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Lieber morgens zu müde vom
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | Sex, als abends zu müde 
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | für Sex!
Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Unbekannte Quelle
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

You (Joerg Schilling) wrote:
 Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de wrote:
 
  You (?? ??   (Martin Bochnig)) wrote:
   Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
   open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
   logics from above? How would you?
 
  He left on his own:
 
 http://twitter.com/webmink/status/10861922797
 
 http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/
 
  As he left on March 8th, and the change to Oracle in the UK was on March 
  1st,
  it's absolutely clear, that he decided on his own to leave Oracle. He had a
  job at Oracle, otherwhise he would have left BEFORE March 1st! So, do not 
  TURN
 
 Unles you can explain us the legal situation in Britain, you seem to make 
 assumptions that have not been proven.
 
 In Germany there is paragraph 613a BGB (Betriebsübergang) that grants the 
 continuation of a job even if the company is sold. If there is something 
 similar
 in Britain, your asumptions are false.

I know from a lot of my colleagues inside Sun/Oracle, that ALL that saw the
LEC have had new contract-offers and have to had those signed BEFORE.

From that I assume, that this is the same for Simon. Yes, an assumption, but
based on infos from a lot of colleagues over there in UK!

And the BGB is one of the reasons, why LEC in Britain was earlier than the LEC
in Germany (expected July 1st).

  truth to FUD, like you try to do for days, if not weeks lately!
 
 The text in his Blog seems to be neutral and I cannot see a hint that proves 
 one 
 or the other.
 
 In Germany it is completely unusual to leave a company on days different from 
 the end of a month or at least the mid of a month. If someone leaves at March 
 8th and does not immediately start a new job, this would be a hint for being 
 fired. Without an explanation from Simon, everything is speculative.

Yes, it might be good to hear from Simon, but, as stated, everyone that saw
March 1st had an offer from Oracle (afaik)...

 Note that Simon originially claimed that he does not yet know whet to do next.
 The fact that he now is a director at the OpenSource Initiative does not help 
 us
 
 Jörg

  Matthias
-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Lieber morgens zu müde vom
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | Sex, als abends zu müde 
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | für Sex!
Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Unbekannte Quelle
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

OK, as Simon now stated, that he has not been offered a position at Oracle, I
have to withdraw my assumption, that everybody who passed March 1st was
offered one...

Sorry for the confusion...

  Matthias

I (Matthias Pfützner) wrote:
 You (Joerg Schilling) wrote:
  Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de wrote:
  
   You (?? ??   (Martin Bochnig)) wrote:
Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
logics from above? How would you?
  
   He left on his own:
  
  http://twitter.com/webmink/status/10861922797
  
  http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/
  
   As he left on March 8th, and the change to Oracle in the UK was on March 
   1st,
   it's absolutely clear, that he decided on his own to leave Oracle. He had 
   a
   job at Oracle, otherwhise he would have left BEFORE March 1st! So, do not 
   TURN
  
  Unles you can explain us the legal situation in Britain, you seem to make 
  assumptions that have not been proven.
  
  In Germany there is paragraph 613a BGB (Betriebsübergang) that grants the 
  continuation of a job even if the company is sold. If there is something 
  similar
  in Britain, your asumptions are false.
 
 I know from a lot of my colleagues inside Sun/Oracle, that ALL that saw the
 LEC have had new contract-offers and have to had those signed BEFORE.
 
 From that I assume, that this is the same for Simon. Yes, an assumption, but
 based on infos from a lot of colleagues over there in UK!
 
 And the BGB is one of the reasons, why LEC in Britain was earlier than the LEC
 in Germany (expected July 1st).
 
   truth to FUD, like you try to do for days, if not weeks lately!
  
  The text in his Blog seems to be neutral and I cannot see a hint that 
  proves one 
  or the other.
  
  In Germany it is completely unusual to leave a company on days different 
  from 
  the end of a month or at least the mid of a month. If someone leaves at 
  March 
  8th and does not immediately start a new job, this would be a hint for 
  being 
  fired. Without an explanation from Simon, everything is speculative.
 
 Yes, it might be good to hear from Simon, but, as stated, everyone that saw
 March 1st had an offer from Oracle (afaik)...
 
  Note that Simon originially claimed that he does not yet know whet to do 
  next.
  The fact that he now is a director at the OpenSource Initiative does not 
  help 
  us
  
  Jörg
 
   Matthias
 -- 
 Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Lieber morgens zu müde vom
 Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | Sex, als abends zu müde 
 D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | für Sex!
 Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Unbekannte Quelle
 

-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Lieber morgens zu müde vom
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | Sex, als abends zu müde 
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | für Sex!
Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Unbekannte Quelle
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

And, for the audience to note here, we (a couple people inside Sun/Oracle) are
also trying to get those, who can speak to send out some words.

But, as Simon said:

Oracle is a company that passes information along, once the decisions are
made. As long as there are no decisions, there is no info.

It's as simple as that.

 Matthias

I (Matthias Pfützner) wrote:
 OK, as Simon now stated, that he has not been offered a position at Oracle, I
 have to withdraw my assumption, that everybody who passed March 1st was
 offered one...
 
 Sorry for the confusion...
 
   Matthias
 
 I (Matthias Pfützner) wrote:
  You (Joerg Schilling) wrote:
   Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de wrote:
   
You (?? ??   (Martin Bochnig)) wrote:
 Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
 open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
 logics from above? How would you?
   
He left on his own:
   
   http://twitter.com/webmink/status/10861922797
   
   http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/
   
As he left on March 8th, and the change to Oracle in the UK was on 
March 1st,
it's absolutely clear, that he decided on his own to leave Oracle. He 
had a
job at Oracle, otherwhise he would have left BEFORE March 1st! So, do 
not TURN
   
   Unles you can explain us the legal situation in Britain, you seem to make 
   assumptions that have not been proven.
   
   In Germany there is paragraph 613a BGB (Betriebsübergang) that grants the 
   continuation of a job even if the company is sold. If there is something 
   similar
   in Britain, your asumptions are false.
  
  I know from a lot of my colleagues inside Sun/Oracle, that ALL that saw the
  LEC have had new contract-offers and have to had those signed BEFORE.
  
  From that I assume, that this is the same for Simon. Yes, an assumption, 
  but
  based on infos from a lot of colleagues over there in UK!
  
  And the BGB is one of the reasons, why LEC in Britain was earlier than the 
  LEC
  in Germany (expected July 1st).
  
truth to FUD, like you try to do for days, if not weeks lately!
   
   The text in his Blog seems to be neutral and I cannot see a hint that 
   proves one 
   or the other.
   
   In Germany it is completely unusual to leave a company on days different 
   from 
   the end of a month or at least the mid of a month. If someone leaves at 
   March 
   8th and does not immediately start a new job, this would be a hint for 
   being 
   fired. Without an explanation from Simon, everything is speculative.
  
  Yes, it might be good to hear from Simon, but, as stated, everyone that saw
  March 1st had an offer from Oracle (afaik)...
  
   Note that Simon originially claimed that he does not yet know whet to do 
   next.
   The fact that he now is a director at the OpenSource Initiative does not 
   help 
   us
   
   Jörg
  
Matthias
  -- 
  Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Lieber morgens zu müde 
  vom
  Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | Sex, als abends zu müde 
  D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | für Sex!
  Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Unbekannte Quelle
  
 
 -- 
 Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Lieber morgens zu müde vom
 Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | Sex, als abends zu müde 
 D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | für Sex!
 Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Unbekannte Quelle
 

-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Lieber morgens zu müde vom
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | Sex, als abends zu müde 
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | für Sex!
Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Unbekannte Quelle
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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?

2010-04-04 Thread Martin Bochnig

2010/4/4 Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de:
 Martin,

 sorry, yes, you're right, I didn't want to discredit you...

 There's been too much FUD here lately, thererfore I might be over-reacting!

 Sorry again!

      Matthias




Matthias, ok.
Thanks for publicly correcting your previous statement.
I can understand your general agression towards FUD-fed threads like that.
And nowadays I did not initiate it. Like you I rather protested against it:

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-April/055347.html


All that I did say earlier today was, that Oracle is not an innocent
holy Saint Sunacle. And while I disagree with the
OracleHasKilledOpenSolaris-FUD (which it clearly was), that I find it
at the same time important not to praise or defend Oracle more than
they deserve at this point (of current knowledge) in IT-history.

Only time can show, if they decide to back their (few) pro-OpenSolaris
words with good action.

Then we know more.



%martin



 You (?? ??   (Martin Bochnig)) wrote:
 2010/4/4 Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de:
  You (?? ??   (Martin Bochnig)) wrote:
  Did you notice? Their first move after the takeover was to lay-off Sun
  open-source officer Simon Phipps. Can you explain this with your
  logics from above? How would you?
 
  He left on his own:
 
    http://twitter.com/webmink/status/10861922797
 
    http://webmink.com/2010/03/08/sundown/
 
  As he left on March 8th, and the change to Oracle in the UK was on March 
  1st,
  it's absolutely clear, that he decided on his own to leave Oracle. He had a
  job at Oracle, otherwhise he would have left BEFORE March 1st!


 Sorry for this (single) point of having been misinformed.
 I got my Info from a (new) OGB member and - given his trustworthyness
 - believed him without further verifying (in contrast to my usual
 behaviour).




  So, do not TURN
  truth to FUD, like you try to do for days, if not weeks lately!
 [snip]
          Matthias
  --
  Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER      | Erst als die Faschisten
  Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | die Comics zensierten,
  D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | wurde mir klar, wie übel
  Germany      | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | diese Leute waren. 
  Fellini
 



 DITTO!

 Interesting.
 I ???

 You must be confusing me with somebody else.
  I hardly posted, and if I did, then it was not related to this subject.

 You have no URL??
 You corrected me in one aspect. That´s good.
 But be so friendly and do your homework before writing something like this:

  So, do not TURN
  truth to FUD, like you try to do for days, if not weeks lately!
 [snip]
          Matthias



 You cannot mean me.


 Trink ´ne Tasse Kaffee und denk drueber nach.


 --
 Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER      | Lieber morgens zu müde vom
 Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | Sex, als abends zu müde
 D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | für Sex!
 Germany      | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Unbekannte Quelle

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Re: [osol-discuss] Any news about 2010.3?