Re: [osol-discuss] Pointless KDE vs. GNOME discussion was Re: [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:32:18 -0500 > > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:10:24 -0500 > > > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:46:38 -0500 > > > > > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:02 AM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL > PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > I've used both Gnome and KDE off and on since 0.x days but > ditched both > [snip] > > > > > Right. But enabling such features should be an option, not default > > > requirement. > > > > The law makes it a requirement. > > No it doesn't. It needs to be available as an option for > those who require such in certain environments, but not all. It does if you want to sell to government entities, etc. which Sun obviously does and wants to. That's my point. > > > And I've had it whispered in my ear that a lot of the decision by > > > various US corps to back Gnome was based more on nationalism > > > concerns than technical merit. > > > > The difference is that a Sun person is the one that stated that. It > > wasn't "rumours" or "whispered in my ear." > > Call it what you like. Doesn't change reality... Indeed, it does not. Which reality it doesn't change is up for debate though :-) > > > > > > Sun spent millions on GNOME in years past before xfce was really > known > > > > > > at all, so it makes sense for them to stick with their > investment. > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. When you've made a mistake, smart leaders correct > > > > > rather than pouring good money after bad. > > > > > > > > I haven't seen anything to prove it was a mistake yet. > > Can you cite instance where has Gnome replaced MS in corp/govt.? I can > cite cases where KDE has. Seems to indicate to me that betting the > farm on Gnome _might_ have been a mistake... Sure. Go look on Novell's website :-) > > > > Quite the opposite. > > > > > > Then why, despite all this backing by various US corp entities, does > > > Gnome still take back seat to KDE by something like 3:1 ratio in terms > > > > Where are you getting those statistics from? > > Google is your friend. You're an analyst. Don't make me do your > legwork. They're your stats, not mine :-) > > It doesn't make much sense given that: > > > > * RedHat uses GNOME by default and is the most well GNU/Linux distribution > > RedHat is a lame distro whose only "feature" is a psuedo offerings of > indemnification and support that fail to actually pan out in the real > world. Nobody I know uses it in production environment unless forced to > do so by phb's lacking in technical competence, i.e. decisions based on > politics rather that technical merit. A lame distro that makes millions for RedHat every year in subscriptions :-) > > * Novell used GNOME by default in their enterprise distribution > > > > * Novell purchased Ximian years ago, which is a GNOME company > > > > * Sun chose GNOME years ago > > > > ..etc. > > > > Debain, (K)Ubuntu, and Slackware of the most popular. But why are we > talking about Linux? Because you don't hear about mass desktop deployments of *NIX-like platforms with anything else? > > Which desktop I'm using makes little difference in the end. > > I don't appreciate that you've inappropriately and erroneously changed > the subject heading in what appears to be an effort at belittling my > input by relegating to status of a "religious war". Especially since I I'm the one responding, aren't I? :) The point is, that in the end, everyone has their particular view of a project. Most of us are never going to change our view of KDE, GNOME, etc. We encountered them and stuck with it for whatever reason. I doubt I will ever change my view of KDE's licensing or library choices, and I doubt you will ever change your view of GNOME or XFCE. So, there's little point to the discussion, hence the subject :-) > Gnome. In this context I have pointed to some things I do not like > about Gnome related to lack of stability, sluggish performance, and > purposeful crippling of capabilities that were formerly present under > the guise of "usability". And also I would welcome a modern > Xfce-4.4.x, as Blastwave's repo is still on 4.2, and quite out of date. File bugs. However, I can just about guarantee that Xfce someday will be accused of being bloated too, (actually I've already seen that from those that used it from early, early versions). One man's bloat, is another man's "must have feature." Cheers, -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even mor
Re: [osol-discuss] Pointless KDE vs. GNOME discussion was Re: [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
A minor nit: Section 508 applies to software which Federal agencies "develop, procure, maintain, or use electronic and information technology". Sun (or any other publicly traded company) is not required by law to conform to Section 508 unless they desire to provide their software/services to the U.S. government. INOW, if you are not working for, or supplying software to the government, then you are more than free to completely ignore Section 508 and any other accessibility/usability enhancements as you please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_508 Flame on. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Pointless KDE vs. GNOME discussion was Re: [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:32:18 -0500 "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:10:24 -0500 > > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:46:38 -0500 > > > > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:02 AM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > I've used both Gnome and KDE off and on since 0.x days but > > ditched both [snip] > > Right. But enabling such features should be an option, not default > > requirement. > > The law makes it a requirement. No it doesn't. It needs to be available as an option for those who require such in certain environments, but not all. [snip] > > And I've had it whispered in my ear that a lot of the decision by > > various US corps to back Gnome was based more on nationalism > > concerns than technical merit. > > The difference is that a Sun person is the one that stated that. It > wasn't "rumours" or "whispered in my ear." Call it what you like. Doesn't change reality... > > > > > Sun spent millions on GNOME in years past before xfce was really > > known > > > > > at all, so it makes sense for them to stick with their investment. > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. When you've made a mistake, smart leaders correct > > > > rather than pouring good money after bad. > > > > > > I haven't seen anything to prove it was a mistake yet. Can you cite instance where has Gnome replaced MS in corp/govt.? I can cite cases where KDE has. Seems to indicate to me that betting the farm on Gnome _might_ have been a mistake... > > > Quite the opposite. > > > > Then why, despite all this backing by various US corp entities, does > > Gnome still take back seat to KDE by something like 3:1 ratio in terms > > Where are you getting those statistics from? Google is your friend. You're an analyst. Don't make me do your legwork. > It doesn't make much sense given that: > > * RedHat uses GNOME by default and is the most well GNU/Linux distribution RedHat is a lame distro whose only "feature" is a psuedo offerings of indemnification and support that fail to actually pan out in the real world. Nobody I know uses it in production environment unless forced to do so by phb's lacking in technical competence, i.e. decisions based on politics rather that technical merit. > * Novell used GNOME by default in their enterprise distribution > > * Novell purchased Ximian years ago, which is a GNOME company > > * Sun chose GNOME years ago > > ..etc. > Debain, (K)Ubuntu, and Slackware of the most popular. But why are we talking about Linux? > I suppose it depends on whether you are looking at the US or European markets. Somewhat. KDE is defacto standard with most Euro govt. agencies I'm aware of that are on Linux platform. > > of user base? I'll venture a hypothesis: any *nix based DE is not going > > to be able to seriously compete w/MS for corp workstation in the > > foreseeable future. Hence the lack of uptake in this market despite > > That I can agree with. > > > the various periodic marketing pushes from Novell, IBM, etc. So who's > > left as user base? People smart enough to not want a crippled DE > > that's designed to be "usable" by lowest common demominator (e.g. does > > the print dialog still omit "duplex" option in name of > > "usability"?), and this sector seems to exhibit strong preference for > > KDE. > > Crippled is a matter of perspective. I consider almost all of the > current *NIX desktops to be crippled in one way or another. > > As for the rest; that's just opinion -- so no facts or figures are > going to make any difference there. > > > Thankfully there are some within Sun who see this issue differently than > > you and are actively working on porting of KDE;) > > *shrug* I don't really care. > > I spend most of my time in a terminal window or a browser. So do I. Plus email. It's pretty tough to get any work done when your DE/MUA is crashing daily. > Which desktop I'm using makes little difference in the end. I don't appreciate that you've inappropriately and erroneously changed the subject heading in what appears to be an effort at belittling my input by relegating to status of a "religious war". Especially since I am specifically not advocating for KDE. Yes, I applaud that others w/in Sun have so users will have another viable option when presented with what in my experience has been a terminally broken Gnome. In this context I have pointed to some things I do not like about Gnome related to lack of stability, sluggish performance, and purposeful crippling of capabilities that were formerly present under the guise of "usability". And also I would welcome a modern Xfce-4.4.x, as Blastwave's repo is still on 4.2, and quite
Re: [osol-discuss] Pointless KDE vs. GNOME discussion was Re: [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Steven Stallion wrote: > INOW, if you are not working for, or supplying software to the > government, then you are more than free to completely ignore Section > 508 and any other accessibility/usability enhancements as you please. Ignore Section 508 yes, but US companies also have to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act for their workers and customers. Of course, none of these say we can't add KDE, Xfce, Enlightenment, or any other desktop, as long as we have at least one fully compliant desktop that provides all the functionality needed. After all, we still have non-compliant CDE, and just added compiz... -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Pointless KDE vs. GNOME discussion was Re: [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Steven Stallion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A minor nit: > > Section 508 applies to software which Federal agencies "develop, > procure, maintain, or use electronic and information technology". True, but Sun obviously wants to sell to provide software/services to the government :-) > Sun (or any other publicly traded company) is not required by law to > conform to Section 508 unless they desire to provide their > software/services to the U.S. government. > > INOW, if you are not working for, or supplying software to the > government, then you are more than free to completely ignore Section > 508 and any other accessibility/usability enhancements as you please. At your own peril I might suggest :-) -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Pointless KDE vs. GNOME discussion was Re: [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:10:24 -0500 > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:46:38 -0500 > > > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:02 AM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > I've used both Gnome and KDE off and on since 0.x days but ditched > both > > > > > in favor of Xfce in more recent years. In my opinion Sun (along > with > > > > > other US corps) bet on the wrong horse with Gnome. I'm looking > forward > > > > > to the ongoing KDE4 work (although KDE has become a bit too > "glitzy" for > > > > > me) but that's going to be a while yet. > > > > > > > > > > What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some > > > > > energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice > window > > > > > manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title > bar > > > > > scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse > > > > > scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" > to > > > > > it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? > > > > > > > > xfce has a long way to go before getting to Section 508 compliance, > etc. > > > > > > Not sure about this one, but who cares? Why should majority suffer > > > additional bloat and bugs for a small minority so long as _other_ > > > options exist that _do_ accommodate that minority? > > > > Sun as a public company is *required* by law to seek Section 508 > compliance. > > > > People who don't have friends or family members, or who themselves are > > not physically disadvantaged in some way, often don't understand the > > need for Section 508 compliance. > > > > These folks are disadvantaged, through no fault of their own usually, > > and deserve the same opportunities we have to use software and live > > life. > > Right. But enabling such features should be an option, not default > requirement. The law makes it a requirement. > > > > GNOME is far more mature as a platform than KDE or XFCE, right now, > > > > when it comes to accessibility, etc. > > > > > > -1 > > > > -1 what? > > > > > > For many business purposes, GNOME still has friendlier licensing than > > > > KDE or components KDE relies on as well. > > Well now you're citing licensing issue to support claim that Gnome is > more mature and accessible. Moreover, seeing how KDE has been in No, I am not. I never stated that. > existence longer than Gnome, how can you assert it's less mature. Same > for Xfce if you take into account that it's based/ported from CDE. More mature because GNOME has had more structured, corporate involvement and more usability studies done than KDE. > > > Care to back this up with specific references? > > > > It's quite simple. GNOME is primarily LGPL. KDE relies on many GPL > > components, especially its core window toolkit. > > > > Sun came to the same conclusion when they chose GNOME, so I'm told. > > And I've had it whispered in my ear that a lot of the decision by > various US corps to back Gnome was based more on nationalism > concerns than technical merit. The difference is that a Sun person is the one that stated that. It wasn't "rumours" or "whispered in my ear." > > > > Sun spent millions on GNOME in years past before xfce was really known > > > > at all, so it makes sense for them to stick with their investment. > > > > > > No it doesn't. When you've made a mistake, smart leaders correct > > > rather than pouring good money after bad. > > > > I haven't seen anything to prove it was a mistake yet. > > > > Quite the opposite. > > Then why, despite all this backing by various US corp entities, does > Gnome still take back seat to KDE by something like 3:1 ratio in terms Where are you getting those statistics from? It doesn't make much sense given that: * RedHat uses GNOME by default and is the most well GNU/Linux distribution * Novell used GNOME by default in their enterprise distribution * Novell purchased Ximian years ago, which is a GNOME company * Sun chose GNOME years ago ..etc. I suppose it depends on whether you are looking at the US or European markets. > of user base? I'll venture a hypothesis: any *nix based DE is not going > to be able to seriously compete w/MS for corp workstation in the > foreseeable future. Hence the lack of uptake in this market despite That I can agree with. > the various periodic marketing pushes from Novell, IBM, etc. So who's > left as user base? People smart enough to not want a crippled DE > that's designed to be "usable" by lowest common demominator (e.g. does > the print dialog still omit "duplex" option in name of > "usability"?), and this sector seems to exhibit stro
