Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Stefan Parvu]

> OpenSolaris community on February 14th 2008 because Sun did not make 
> OpenSolaris a truely oSS project:
> http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/watching-the-ripples

Im very sad by the latest development of (Open)Solaris.
I hope to be 100% wrong on this and think that OSOL and Solaris
will value and improve over time not as a legacy OS, ala AIX.

Lets hope that ! Time will tell us.

Greetings,
Stefan
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Joerg Schilling]

Stefan Parvu  wrote:

> What Im afraid, based on this example, is that Oracle is looking 
> for a simple market segment, where they could milk a lot
> of licenses for their products. Thats all. This means
> goodbye to old good Solaris from many parts of industry ! And might
> mean legacy :(
>
> Probable Cockcroft is starting to be right 
> http://perfcap.blogspot.com/2010/08/open-letter-to-my-sun-friends-at-oracle.html

I mentioned earlier this year that Sun did never make the promises from 
September 14th 2004 reality, I should add that Roy Fielding has been a member 
of the OpenSolaris pilot that started in September 2004 and he even has become 
a member of the CAB (a precursor of the OGB) in 2005. Roy Fielding left the 
OpenSolaris community on February 14th 2008 because Sun did not make 
OpenSolaris a truely oSS project:

http://roy.gbiv.com/untangled/2008/watching-the-ripples

Jörg

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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Stefan Parvu]

I know they uses SUSE and HP. I dont think Oracle is realizing anything
regarding this except there is no license revenue for them on 
HPC Solaris/systems.

And thats so plastic and real. Its true indeed since Sun/Solaris never
been a top 10 HPC player, *but* Sun did improve the image past
years and start convincing people about its HPC resources.

So Oracle should have invest and continue the effort. Thats my point.
HPC business is important but probable with a return a bit later.

What Im afraid, based on this example, is that Oracle is looking 
for a simple market segment, where they could milk a lot
of licenses for their products. Thats all. This means
goodbye to old good Solaris from many parts of industry ! And might
mean legacy :(

Probable Cockcroft is starting to be right 
http://perfcap.blogspot.com/2010/08/open-letter-to-my-sun-friends-at-oracle.html

stefan
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Paul Gress]

On 08/ 8/10 10:54 AM, Stefan Parvu wrote:

Another idea: I was driving today and came to my mind: huh
what could be a better example about a simple and classic
HPC setup, used on a practical matter: BMW Oracle Racing !

Is this a retired business used only by academic and governments ?
Of course not. BMW is a very commercial entity seeking profits.

http://www.oracle.com/technology/events/hpc_consortium2010/bmw_oracle_racing_frank_albina.pdf

Does this mean Oracle system's are not suitable doing HPC ? I bet Larry
does count if his team ends on 3rd or 4th position...

   



Looking at the link above, their using HP Blade servers and Linux.  I 
hope it makes him realize there's a need for HPC in Oracle and Solaris.  
He needs to advertise that this can be done using Oracle technology.


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Stefan Parvu]

Another idea: I was driving today and came to my mind: huh
what could be a better example about a simple and classic 
HPC setup, used on a practical matter: BMW Oracle Racing ! 

Is this a retired business used only by academic and governments ? 
Of course not. BMW is a very commercial entity seeking profits.

http://www.oracle.com/technology/events/hpc_consortium2010/bmw_oracle_racing_frank_albina.pdf

Does this mean Oracle system's are not suitable doing HPC ? I bet Larry
does count if his team ends on 3rd or 4th position... 

stefan
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Stefan Parvu]

>yes - that's simulation. What I said. And who do you think has these big
>weather simulation setups? Certainly not each TV station...

HPC is a vital business close to our society. If Oracle is a system company
they must play HPC and support it the way IBM and other big irons do.
Im not gonna start to explain you here the pro and cons of HPC 
nor advocate whats good about it. Who knows about HPC will 
understand me right ahead. 

I have no idea what Oracle is after but killing the HPC market will
have a negative impact on future Oracle x86/SPARC hdw. Oracle
is starting more and more to show visible signs that they will
play in a very restricted market segment for their DB products. 
Dicard here all marketing stunts and big liners mgmt talks about ;) 

About weather prediction: in US AFAIK there are already private
companies which can run different models. They offer the results
to many other private companies so, yes it is already a business. 
In EU things are on smaller scale so you will find governments involved. 
In Asia I have no info, probable close to EU. Some of these accounts 
are on Solaris already and killing them is simple not a smart move. 
Scientific community might move away from Sun/Oracle as a 
vendor/provider. And when they do that they will trigger others to
lose interest for Oracle systems: schools, agencies, universities etc. 
But probable this is what Oracle really wants !? 

Small, dedicated market segment ? If you need a DB and have big $$$
then you are lucky if not go somewhere else...

Greetings,
Stefan
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Erik Trimble]

On 8/7/2010 5:52 AM, Stefan Parvu wrote:

HPC is almost completely reserved for simulation these days, which means heavy
use by academic (and quasi-academic) organizations, with some government stuff
thrown in as as well.  I'm also of  course seeing usage for render farms. :-)
 

What are you talking about !? Think something simple and common which connects 
everything: weather prediction !

   
yes - that's simulation. What I said. And who do you think has these big 
weather simulation setups? Certainly not each TV station...



Oracle exiting HPC market shows clearly that they drive the hdw business of Sun
from a perspective of database house with no intimately knowledge of hardware
business nor understanding what means to invest in certain directions. Too bad.

Clear point Oracle is a business house not a technology house. Yep, looks like.

stefan
   
I wouldn't go that far. Certainly, Oracle has different priorities as to 
which markets are worth investing in, and HPC doesn't seem to make there 
required cost/profit cut.


Frankly, Sun was a technology house, and that's what got it into 
trouble. Business pays the bills. Gotta actually sell product for a 
profit to keep going.  DEC had a lot of the same problems.



That said, I'm not overjoyed by many of Oracle's marketing/sales 
decisions, as they seem to be overtly concerned with maximizing profit 
per sale, not maximizing profit per sector. ( That is, they seem to want 
to sell X things for Y profit each, even if you could sell 10X things 
for 0.4Y profit each).



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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Stefan Parvu]

>HPC is almost completely reserved for simulation these days, which means heavy
> use by academic (and quasi-academic) organizations, with some government 
> stuff 
> thrown in as as well.  I'm also of  course seeing usage for render farms. :-)

What are you talking about !? Think something simple and common which connects 
everything: weather prediction ! 

Oracle exiting HPC market shows clearly that they drive the hdw business of Sun
from a perspective of database house with no intimately knowledge of hardware 
business nor understanding what means to invest in certain directions. Too bad.

Clear point Oracle is a business house not a technology house. Yep, looks like.

stefan
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Edward Martinez]

> +-
> -
> | On 2010-08-05 19:39:07, Edward Martinez wrote:
> | 
> | And i  also like the part that it' says about being
> "package neutral" it would be nice if i could
> "bootstrap" netbsd's pkgsrc on to a illumos base
> install and compile  the packages i want. i'm
> probably a few that prefers pkgsrc over
> rpm,apt-get,yum, but i do like gentoo's emerge:)
> 
> pkgsrc works fine on Solaris. 
> -- 
> bda
> cyberpunk is dead. long live cyberpunk.
> ___
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
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> 

 So it does! since 1999. Now i gotta try it out on both solaris in 
virtualbox.I'm using pkgsrc in DragoflyBSD,slackware and of course on NETBSD, I 
love it.  I'll be looking forward for illumos releasing an installable OS based 
on ON and i'll slap pkgsrc to it. )  

http://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html#available-packages
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Damian Wojsław]

Groups for Illumos:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=115926828458102

http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=3283798


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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[john kroll]

Oh, please. None of this is "serious". I'm sure we can come up with a
real bunch of interesting names, but being *serious* isn't relevant.

Irreverent, maybe. :-) 

trademark pending  ??
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Bryan Horstmann-Allen]

+--
| On 2010-08-05 19:39:07, Edward Martinez wrote:
| 
| And i  also like the part that it' says about being "package neutral" it 
would be nice if i could "bootstrap" netbsd's pkgsrc on to a illumos base 
install and compile  the packages i want. i'm probably a few that prefers 
pkgsrc over rpm,apt-get,yum, but i do like gentoo's emerge:)

pkgsrc works fine on Solaris. 
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Edward Martinez]

> Garrett D'Amore, the "Benevolent Dictator for now" of
> the IllumOS project, has posted a slide show in pdf
> format:
> 
> http://www.illumos.org/attachments/download/3/illumos.
> pdf
> 
> At the present time, the only thing I cared is that
> these great slides are made using Oracle's
> OpenOffice.org 3.2 (pls see att scrnshot).  :-)
> 
> Ed.:  Forgot to mention that, as shown in one of the
> slides, the IllumOS is also partnered by SchilliX,
> BeleniX, and Joyent (as per Sir Bryan Cantrill,
> Joyent's newly minted VP of Engineering), etc.
> 
> 
> > A number of the community leaders from the
> > OpenSolaris community have
> > been working quietly together on a new effort
> called
> > Illumos, and we're
> > just about ready to fully disclose our work to,
> and
> > invite the general
> > participation of, the general public.
> > 
> > We believe that everyone who is interested in
> > OpenSolaris should be
> > interested in what we have to say, and so we
> invite
> > the entire
> > OpenSolaris community to join us for a
> presentation
> > on at 1PM EDT on
> > August 3, 2010.
> > 
> > You can find out the full details of how to listen
> in
> > to our conference,
> > or attend in person (we will be announcing from
> New
> > York City) by
> > visiting http://www.illumos.org/announce (The
> final
> > details shall be
> > posted there not later than 1PM EDT Aug 1, 2010.)
> > 
> > We look forward to seeing you there!
> > 
> >   - Garrett D'Amore & the rest of the Illumos Cast
> 
> Message was edited by: waynel

I like this at the beginning, it's like if it is saying "SunOS":

Light as in coming from the "Sun...
OS" as in Operating System

And i  also like the part that it' says about being "package neutral" it would 
be nice if i could "bootstrap" netbsd's pkgsrc on to a illumos base install and 
compile  the packages i want. i'm probably a few that prefers pkgsrc over 
rpm,apt-get,yum, but i do like gentoo's emerge:)

it's great to see a great list of top partners, illumos will succeed , I think 
ZFS creator, bill moore  works for nexenta, so in a way nexenta is becoming SUN 
2.0 ;) i can picture it now "nexenta microsystems", only if they sold units:)
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[W. Wayne Liauh]

Garrett D'Amore, the "Benevolent Dictator for now" of the IllumOS project, has 
posted a slide show in pdf format:

http://www.illumos.org/attachments/download/3/illumos.pdf

At the present time, the only thing I cared is that these great slides are made 
using Oracle's OpenOffice.org 3.2 (pls see att scrnshot).  :-)




> A number of the community leaders from the
> OpenSolaris community have
> been working quietly together on a new effort called
> Illumos, and we're
> just about ready to fully disclose our work to, and
> invite the general
> participation of, the general public.
> 
> We believe that everyone who is interested in
> OpenSolaris should be
> interested in what we have to say, and so we invite
> the entire
> OpenSolaris community to join us for a presentation
> on at 1PM EDT on
> August 3, 2010.
> 
> You can find out the full details of how to listen in
> to our conference,
> or attend in person (we will be announcing from New
> York City) by
> visiting http://www.illumos.org/announce (The final
> details shall be
> posted there not later than 1PM EDT Aug 1, 2010.)
> 
> We look forward to seeing you there!
> 
>   - Garrett D'Amore & the rest of the Illumos Cast
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Erik Trimble]

On 8/5/2010 9:26 AM, devsk wrote:

On 8/5/2010 4:06 AM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
 

I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS",
 

contrasted with "I am a PC" and "I am a Mac"
 


 

- iOS ? (if not copyrighted already by Apple)...

   

Naahhh. I'd perfer a bit of hubris, and go with
"TheOS".

Or, maybe TOTOS (The One True OS).


 

Why are people making fun of such a serious attempt at suggesting a good short name? The 
"OS" in ImOS is OpenSolaris.
   


Oh, please.   None of this is "serious".  I'm sure we can come up with a 
real bunch of interesting names, but being *serious* isn't relevant.


Irreverent, maybe. :-)

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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[devsk]

> On 8/5/2010 4:06 AM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
> >> I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS",
> contrasted with "I am a PC" and "I am a Mac"
> >>  
> > - iOS ? (if not copyrighted already by Apple)...
> >
> 
> Naahhh. I'd perfer a bit of hubris, and go with
> "TheOS".
> 
> Or, maybe TOTOS (The One True OS).
> 
> 

Why are people making fun of such a serious attempt at suggesting a good short 
name? The "OS" in ImOS is OpenSolaris.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Brandon Hume]

On Thu, 2010-08-05 at 07:06 -0700, Erik Trimble wrote:
> I know, but, it's Theo.  And, that's all I'm gonna say on that topic. :-)

I'm not sure that the OpenSolaris codebase is sufficiently angry and
rude to be a *proper* Theo.  *Cough*  :)


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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[ken mays]

I was making a bunch of source tarballs to archive the latest Oracle Xorg and 
ON snv_146 based sources.

We found out that snv_145 built successfully with the merges from IllumOS gate 
from another developer and today I was working on reviewing the snv_146 build 
which was respun yesterday.

Based on the demo presentation, there is hope of a successful public core 
binary with the recent ON and Xorg updates.

~ Ken Mays





  
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Alan Coopersmith]

Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> Hmm...didn't FOX gate have Martin's ports of drivers for some
> of the legacy SPARC graphics hardware?  Having a fair bit of same
> still in use, those are still a matter of concern for me.

Yes, but those aren't in sync with current X servers, and he hasn't
touched them in the FOX gate since March 2009 - in fact, we're coming
up on the one year anniversary of the last commit by anyone to the
fox-gate hg repo - August 17, 2009.   If Martin's still working on them,
he's been doing it somewhere else.

> It'd be great to see them separable from the basic X server, if Oracle
> doesn't wish to maintain them, so that they could be an addition from
> a separate repository, rather than requiring an entire alternative X server.

That requires someone to actively maintain them, since the Xorg driver API/ABI
changes between upstream releases.

> Either or both of those are presumably for the community to deal with;
> but it would sure help if coexistence with (rather than replacement of)
> "standard" software were possible.

I am happy to add new source repositories and committers to the FOX project
if people want to do work there, but right now, no one is.   (Other than the
project gates we're using to stage the upgrades to new Xorg versions before
they're ready to integrate to the main Nevada gate, like the Xorg-1.9-merge
gate I recently made there - but only Niveditha & I have been working on those.)

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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Erik Trimble]

On 8/5/2010 6:48 AM, joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de wrote:

Erik Trimble  wrote:

   

On 8/5/2010 4:06 AM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
 

I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS", contrasted with "I am a PC" and "I am 
a Mac"

 

- iOS ? (if not copyrighted already by Apple)...

   

Naahhh. I'd perfer a bit of hubris, and go with "TheOS".
 

http://theos.com/

Jörg
   



I know, but, it's Theo.  And, that's all I'm gonna say on that topic. :-)


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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Erik Trimble]

On 8/5/2010 5:30 AM, Ashish Nabira wrote:
Answer is simple. HPC business is negative margin, and Oracle don't do 
any negative margin business.


  * Ashish Nabira *
Enterprise IT Architect

*Sun Microsystems, Inc.*
7th floor , Prestige Obelisk, Kasturba Rd
Bangalore, KN 560025 IN
Phone x89854/+91 8066930 854
Mobile +919845082183
Email ashish.nab...@sun.com 



On 05-Aug-10, at 1:14 AM, Paul Gress wrote:

On 08/ 4/10 02:26 PM, David Brodbeck wrote:

On Aug 4, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Paul Gress wrote:
   

Larry sees the profitable market as servers and databases.  HPC, won't help 
databases.  HPC (high performance computers) basically are derived from servers 
with additional components added to them to make them function as a 
workstation, this is my interpretation, I'm sure some one will probably correct 
me if I'm wrong.
 

There are certainly desktop High Performance Computing applications, but it's 
much more common for HPC nodes to be servers of some description.  Generally 
they're biased towards large amounts of CPU power, and/or have multiple GPU 
cards installed, to provide lots of computational speed.

   


Thanks for the added info.  In you opinion, does HPC have any benefit 
for database applications.  I imagine the high CPU count will but the 
GPU count won't, as in CUDA.  If this is true, why is Oracle not 
participating in any conferences or even updated their own web page 
(http://wikis.sun.com/display/HPCCommunity/Home), last updated on Oct 
2009..


Paul




HPC is almost completely reserved for simulation these days, which means 
heavy use by academic (and quasi-academic) organizations, with some 
government stuff thrown in as as well.  I'm also of course seeing usage 
for render farms. :-)


The key thing about the HPC market is it is very cost-sensitive, mainly 
because of the vast numbers of compute nodes that are bought.   I'd not 
say a "negative margin" area, but certainly, nothing like the margins 
Oracle typically goes for.  I certainly don't see the HPC market willing 
to cough up the dough for the Oracle Premium Support contract per node, 
and without that, Oracle has very little (institutional) reason to sell 
into a market that's not going to make much money for them.


And, before anyone asks, Databases don't really do HPC clusters yet.  At 
least, databases in the sense of a traditional RDBMS (things like MySQL 
read-only content distribution farms run just fine, but that's not the 
same as being able to run a back-end DB for something like OLTP).




And, as always, I do not speak for Oracle, not do I have non-public 
knowledge about any Oracle product, business practice, or policy.


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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Joerg Schilling]

Erik Trimble  wrote:

> On 8/5/2010 4:06 AM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
> >> I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS", contrasted with "I am a PC" 
> >> and "I am a Mac"
> >>  
> > - iOS ? (if not copyrighted already by Apple)...
> >
>
> Naahhh. I'd perfer a bit of hubris, and go with "TheOS".

http://theos.com/

Jörg

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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Erik Trimble]

On 8/5/2010 4:06 AM, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:

I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS", contrasted with "I am a PC" and "I am 
a Mac"
 

- iOS ? (if not copyrighted already by Apple)...
   


Naahhh. I'd perfer a bit of hubris, and go with "TheOS".

Or, maybe TOTOS (The One True OS).




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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Ashish Nabira]

Answer is simple. HPC business is negative margin, and Oracle don't do  
any negative margin business.


 Ashish Nabira
Enterprise IT Architect

Sun Microsystems, Inc.
7th floor , Prestige Obelisk, Kasturba Rd
Bangalore, KN 560025 IN
Phone x89854/+91 8066930 854
Mobile +919845082183
Email ashish.nab...@sun.com


On 05-Aug-10, at 1:14 AM, Paul Gress wrote:

On 08/ 4/10 02:26 PM, David Brodbeck wrote:


On Aug 4, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Paul Gress wrote:

Larry sees the profitable market as servers and databases.  HPC,  
won't help databases.  HPC (high performance computers) basically  
are derived from servers with additional components added to them  
to make them function as a workstation, this is my interpretation,  
I'm sure some one will probably correct me if I'm wrong.


There are certainly desktop High Performance Computing applications,  
but it's much more common for HPC nodes to be servers of some  
description.  Generally they're biased towards large amounts of CPU  
power, and/or have multiple GPU cards installed, to provide lots of  
computational speed.





Thanks for the added info.  In you opinion, does HPC have any benefit  
for database applications.  I imagine the high CPU count will but the  
GPU count won't, as in CUDA.  If this is true, why is Oracle not  
participating in any conferences or even updated their own web page (http://wikis.sun.com/display/HPCCommunity/Home 
), last updated on Oct 2009..


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Matthias Pfützner]

I (Matthias Pfützner) wrote:
> And: BTW: Sun/Oracle also no longer sells Monitors,
> so, the only "desktop" HW currently are the Sun Rays...

Meant in the "traditional sense" of a real system at the desktop or
deskside...

And: Yes, there still are mouse and keyboards for the Sun Rays..., afaik...

Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Calum Benson]

On 5 Aug 2010, at 12:24, Calum Benson wrote:

> 
> On 5 Aug 2010, at 12:06, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:
> 
>>> I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS", contrasted with "I am a PC" 
>>> and "I am a Mac"
>> 
>> - iOS ? (if not copyrighted already by Apple)...
> 
> The good news is that it isn't copyrighted by Apple. The bad news is that 
> it's copyrighted by Cisco, who granted Apple licence to use it :)

(And before anyone picks me up on it-- yes, I know "iOS" is actually a 
trademark, not a copyright.)

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
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mailto:calum.ben...@oracle.com Solaris Desktop Team
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Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Oracle Corp.

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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Calum Benson]

On 5 Aug 2010, at 12:06, Dmitry G. Kozhinov wrote:

>> I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS", contrasted with "I am a PC" 
>> and "I am a Mac"
> 
> - iOS ? (if not copyrighted already by Apple)...

The good news is that it isn't copyrighted by Apple. The bad news is that it's 
copyrighted by Cisco, who granted Apple licence to use it :)



Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Interaction Designer Oracle Corporation Ireland Ltd.
mailto:calum.ben...@oracle.com Solaris Desktop Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Oracle Corp.

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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Dmitry G. Kozhinov]

This is great to have a community-driven OS/Net consolidation, but... what the 
point to do a "secret" preparation work and announce the project release date, 
if we still cannot see any information on illumos.org on how to build the 
OS/Net? Or maybe download any binary? We only know that the project exists.

Am I missing something?
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Matthias Pfützner]

You (Ian Collins) wrote:
> On 08/ 5/10 06:32 PM, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
>>> The nVIDIA device driver is written by nVIDIA, not
>>> Oracle!
>>>
>>> Solaris/OpenSolaris is not specifically a Server or
>>> Workstation OS, it's an
>>> OS. People use it. Oracle/Sun currently only sells
>>> server-hardware. So, trying
>>> to derive from that fact, that Solaris/OpenSolaris is
>>> only a server OS is a
>>> conclusion done by someone. But, if people would be
>>> using Solaris/OpenSolaris
>>> more for Desktop, then that would be helping nVIDIA
>>> in porting/migrating (my
>>> guess).
>>>
>>>  
>> AFAIK, the Ultra 27 (fairly powerful x86 tower, notwithstanding the name)
>> and Sun Rays (thin client, used together with a server) are still sold,
>> so "Oracle/Sun currently only sells server-hardware" isn't accurate.
>>
>
> I thought the U27 had vanished form the portfolio, I couldn't find it on 
> sun.com last time I looked.

For those with a sunsolve account:

http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=index

Select

Desktop/Workstations

and in the box to the right of that, where you could select the individual
systems, all are under the category "EOL Systems".


http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/validateUser.do?target=Systems/Ultra27/Ultra27

And: The Sun Rays themselves require a SERVER part, with DESKTOP
software. That's, why I said, that Solaris/OpenSolaris doesn't care, whether
you run it on a desktop hardware or on a server hardware, the software, that
you need, is part of it! And: BTW: Sun/Oracle also no longer sells Monitors,
so, the only "desktop" HW currently are the Sun Rays...

Matthias
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Dmitry G. Kozhinov]

>I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS", contrasted with "I am a PC" and 
>"I am a Mac"

- iOS ? (if not copyrighted already by Apple)...
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Joerg Schilling]

Alan Coopersmith  wrote:

> Ivan Wang wrote:
> > You need a distro built upon it to actually benefit from illumos, plus 
> > things like X Windows stack (FOX gate?,)
>
> The FOX gate is obsolete and no longer maintained, since the project to
> replace all portions of the X consolidation with open source completed.
> The xnv-clone published by the X Consolidation project is fully open source,
> and is the exact source used in Nevada builds now.

Congratiolations!

> http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Project+x-cons/


Jörg

-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Ian Collins]

On 08/ 5/10 06:32 PM, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:

The nVIDIA device driver is written by nVIDIA, not
Oracle!

Solaris/OpenSolaris is not specifically a Server or
Workstation OS, it's an
OS. People use it. Oracle/Sun currently only sells
server-hardware. So, trying
to derive from that fact, that Solaris/OpenSolaris is
only a server OS is a
conclusion done by someone. But, if people would be
using Solaris/OpenSolaris
more for Desktop, then that would be helping nVIDIA
in porting/migrating (my
guess).

 

AFAIK, the Ultra 27 (fairly powerful x86 tower, notwithstanding the name)
and Sun Rays (thin client, used together with a server) are still sold,
so "Oracle/Sun currently only sells server-hardware" isn't accurate.
   


I thought the U27 had vanished form the portfolio, I couldn't find it on 
sun.com last time I looked.


--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Richard L. Hamilton]

> The nVIDIA device driver is written by nVIDIA, not
> Oracle!
> 
> Solaris/OpenSolaris is not specifically a Server or
> Workstation OS, it's an
> OS. People use it. Oracle/Sun currently only sells
> server-hardware. So, trying
> to derive from that fact, that Solaris/OpenSolaris is
> only a server OS is a
> conclusion done by someone. But, if people would be
> using Solaris/OpenSolaris
> more for Desktop, then that would be helping nVIDIA
> in porting/migrating (my
> guess).
> 

AFAIK, the Ultra 27 (fairly powerful x86 tower, notwithstanding the name)
and Sun Rays (thin client, used together with a server) are still sold,
so "Oracle/Sun currently only sells server-hardware" isn't accurate.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Richard L. Hamilton]

> Ivan Wang wrote:
> > You need a distro built upon it to actually benefit
> from illumos, plus things like X Windows stack (FOX
> gate?,)
> 
> The FOX gate is obsolete and no longer maintained,
> since the project to
> replace all portions of the X consolidation with open
> source completed.
> The xnv-clone published by the X Consolidation
> project is fully open source,
> and is the exact source used in Nevada builds now.
> 
> http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Project+x-cons/
> 
> -- 
> -Alan Coopersmith-
> -alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
> Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window
> ow System

Hmm...didn't FOX gate have Martin's ports of drivers for some
of the legacy SPARC graphics hardware?  Having a fair bit of same
still in use, those are still a matter of concern for me.

It'd be great to see them separable from the basic X server, if Oracle
doesn't wish to maintain them, so that they could be an addition from
a separate repository, rather than requiring an entire alternative X server.

(it's understood that they don't support everything that the old Xsun did,
but every little bit helps; for instance, while I'd lose my XVR-1000,
I might still be able to use the Creator-3D or the XVR-100)

The opened version of Xsun (which would be minus certain 3rd party
functionality) might also let the rest of the old driver binaries work.

Either or both of those are presumably for the community to deal with;
but it would sure help if coexistence with (rather than replacement of)
"standard" software were possible.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Alan Coopersmith]

Ivan Wang wrote:
> You need a distro built upon it to actually benefit from illumos, plus things 
> like X Windows stack (FOX gate?,)

The FOX gate is obsolete and no longer maintained, since the project to
replace all portions of the X consolidation with open source completed.
The xnv-clone published by the X Consolidation project is fully open source,
and is the exact source used in Nevada builds now.

http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Project+x-cons/

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System

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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Ivan Wang]

Ugh, I am not sure people are missing the point here.
In fact, it's the point that illumos is an unburdened O/N, and O/N only.
You need a distro built upon it to actually benefit from illumos, plus things 
like X Windows stack (FOX gate?,) GNOME desktop or whatever desktop environment 
of choice by distro builder.

Where is that distro?

One cannot count on Indiana to switch, because if Oracle were to do it, it 
would be easier just resume /dev release after all. 
StormOS site hasn't been updated for several months I think.

It is the same reason, I think, why indiana is created, and as its predecessor, 
SXCE, for nevada code base.

As matter of fact, only when a distro using illumos emerges, current stagnancy 
can be improved. 

> I think people are missing the point here. This is
> just my $0.02, but
> the effort is akin to kernel.org. They are
> maintaining a fully-open
> base system in which others may build a distribution
> from. It is a lot
> of userland too, but its most akin to being kernel,
> libc, and what one
> expects in /sbin. They want to be upstream
> compatible. If a
> distribution wants to use their revision of ON as a
> _basis_ for their
> distribution, great. Efforts to support third party
> components will
> generally sit upon a full distribution, which is not
> being provided by
> IllumOS.
> 
> They mentioned that a "distribution" may be released,
> but its whole
> purpose is a bootstrap to help create a more complete
> full
> distribution. If you want a workstation/desktop
> class, one could for
> instance use StormOS or similar, which is a
> workstation/desktop
> edition above Nexenta Core by another third party. We
> are all talking
> about various building blocks here. One can't expect
> the end product
> from the group thats solely focused on engine parts.
> 
> ___
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>
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[devsk]

"Illumos" is quite a mouthful for most of the world population to pronounce and 
not a good catch-on name. I suggest ImOS (yeah, that's called "I am OS", 
contrasted with "I am a PC" and "I am a Mac"...;-)) as an acronym for Illumos.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[David Brodbeck]

On Aug 4, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Paul Gress wrote:

> On 08/ 4/10 02:26 PM, David Brodbeck wrote:
>> 
>> On Aug 4, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Paul Gress wrote:
>>   
>>> Larry sees the profitable market as servers and databases.  HPC, won't help 
>>> databases.  HPC (high performance computers) basically are derived from 
>>> servers with additional components added to them to make them function as a 
>>> workstation, this is my interpretation, I'm sure some one will probably 
>>> correct me if I'm wrong.
>>> 
>> There are certainly desktop High Performance Computing applications, but 
>> it's much more common for HPC nodes to be servers of some description.  
>> Generally they're biased towards large amounts of CPU power, and/or have 
>> multiple GPU cards installed, to provide lots of computational speed.
>> 
>>   
> 
> Thanks for the added info.  In you opinion, does HPC have any benefit for 
> database applications.

I think generally it's more useful for highly parallel, 
computationally-intensive applications -- for example, scientific modeling, 
raytracing, finite element analysis, etc.  Databases tend to be more I/O 
intensive.

-- 

David Brodbeck
System Administrator, Linguistics
University of Washington




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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Paul Gress]

On 08/ 4/10 03:42 PM, John Martin wrote:

On 08/ 4/10 12:04 PM, Paul Gress wrote:


  When I read the
Hardware Compatability notes for PTC Pro-Engineer WF5, it states there
are no current plans for its next generation WF6 MCAD product to be
developed on Solaris 10. This means to me, ...


Careful asserting cause to effect.  Linux support for Wildfire
was dropped a long time ago when there were still plenty of
workstation choices from Linux vendors.



Yes, I remember.  And it was officially announced, where nothing has 
officially been announced for Solaris 10, just a note in the WF5 
hardware notes.  Also, with Linux I believe the main cause for non 
support are either one or two things if not both,  Red Had wouldn't 
throw any money their way or that the Linux Kernel was a moving target.  
When I first read about WF6, I always thought that they're talking about 
Solaris 10 and not Solaris Next, but as time goes by my thinking gets 
more swayed towards that Solaris is finished, at least with PTC.  And 
yes, I know I'm assuming, but with nothing officially announced, it's 
all I have.


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Paul Gress]

On 08/ 4/10 02:26 PM, David Brodbeck wrote:

On Aug 4, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Paul Gress wrote:
   

Larry sees the profitable market as servers and databases.  HPC, won't help 
databases.  HPC (high performance computers) basically are derived from servers 
with additional components added to them to make them function as a 
workstation, this is my interpretation, I'm sure some one will probably correct 
me if I'm wrong.
 

There are certainly desktop High Performance Computing applications, but it's 
much more common for HPC nodes to be servers of some description.  Generally 
they're biased towards large amounts of CPU power, and/or have multiple GPU 
cards installed, to provide lots of computational speed.

   


Thanks for the added info.  In you opinion, does HPC have any benefit 
for database applications.  I imagine the high CPU count will but the 
GPU count won't, as in CUDA.  If this is true, why is Oracle not 
participating in any conferences or even updated their own web page 
(http://wikis.sun.com/display/HPCCommunity/Home), last updated on Oct 2009..


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[John Martin]

On 08/ 4/10 12:04 PM, Paul Gress wrote:


  When I read the
Hardware Compatability notes for PTC Pro-Engineer WF5, it states there
are no current plans for its next generation WF6 MCAD product to be
developed on Solaris 10. This means to me, ...


Careful asserting cause to effect.  Linux support for Wildfire
was dropped a long time ago when there were still plenty of
workstation choices from Linux vendors.


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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[David Brodbeck]

On Aug 4, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Paul Gress wrote:
> Larry sees the profitable market as servers and databases.  HPC, won't help 
> databases.  HPC (high performance computers) basically are derived from 
> servers with additional components added to them to make them function as a 
> workstation, this is my interpretation, I'm sure some one will probably 
> correct me if I'm wrong.

There are certainly desktop High Performance Computing applications, but it's 
much more common for HPC nodes to be servers of some description.  Generally 
they're biased towards large amounts of CPU power, and/or have multiple GPU 
cards installed, to provide lots of computational speed.

-- 

David Brodbeck
System Administrator, Linguistics
University of Washington




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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Paul Gress]

On 08/ 4/10 01:15 PM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:


As others have mentioned, CUDA and OpenCL are also useful on servers.

I guess, I'm getting, where you're after...

IF you want DESKTOPS, you need to have someone certify them (HCTS), so that
they appear in the HCL (Sun/Oracle isn't in that business currently/any
more). Solaris/OpenSolaris does not care, if it's run on a workstation or a
server, it runs on all... ;-)

   


Almost, you need apps to run on them.  Desktop apps would be Gimp, 
Openoffice, Gnucash, etc.  Workstation apps are MCAD, ECAD, Software for 
CATSCAN, Software for Molecule modeling, Weather prediction, and so on.  
They require much more computer horsepower.  Just certifying a platform 
doesn't create demand.  Sun years ago had this industry, the same as SGI 
had the Motion Video industry.  It seems Sun or Oracle let this go at 
acquisition time.  By stopping this, they saved a lot of money for 
development and paying various partners/vendors to continue development 
on Solaris.  Yes, this is how I see it, Sun had to pay Adobe for 
acroreader on the X86 platform.  I believe that has stopped here.  You 
will see upgrades to the 9.XX line (paid for), but not 10.XX line (not 
paid for).  Unless Larry sees a profit, it won't happen.  This is how I 
believe Larry made Sun profitable in the recent quarter.  He stopped the 
bleeding of money to various vendors to keep a non-profitable market open.


Larry sees the profitable market as servers and databases.  HPC, won't 
help databases.  HPC (high performance computers) basically are derived 
from servers with additional components added to them to make them 
function as a workstation, this is my interpretation, I'm sure some one 
will probably correct me if I'm wrong.  I don't believe Oracle is going 
to be pursuing this industry.  It doesn't help databases.


Paul


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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Matthias Pfützner]

You (Paul Gress) wrote:
> On 08/ 4/10 11:40 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
>>
>> I guess, I don't get, what you're after?
>>
>> The nVIDIA device driver is written by nVIDIA, not Oracle!
>>
>> Solaris/OpenSolaris is not specifically a Server or Workstation OS, it's an
>> OS. People use it. Oracle/Sun currently only sells server-hardware. So, 
>> trying
>> to derive from that fact, that Solaris/OpenSolaris is only a server OS is a
>> conclusion done by someone. But, if people would be using Solaris/OpenSolaris
>> more for Desktop, then that would be helping nVIDIA in porting/migrating (my
>> guess).
>>
>> You all here can help with that:
>>
>> Now with the 3rd-party hardware support option, you only need to certify your
>> workstations using the HCTS, and buy support contracts... ;-) It's up to the
>> end-user, what they use the software (or here: the OS) for... ;-)
>>
>>
>
> I guess you not getting where I'm going.  Nvidia is not going to write 
> device drivers if there's no market.  Without any more HPC and 
> Workstations, why would you write it?

As others have mentioned, CUDA and OpenCL are also useful on servers.

I guess, I'm getting, where you're after...

IF you want DESKTOPS, you need to have someone certify them (HCTS), so that
they appear in the HCL (Sun/Oracle isn't in that business currently/any
more). Solaris/OpenSolaris does not care, if it's run on a workstation or a
server, it runs on all... ;-)

> I have been using 
> Solaris/Opensolaris for 15 years as a Workstation.  I started with an 
> Ultra2 running Pro-Engineer a MCAD application, and continued through today 
> using Opensolaris on an HPZ800 Workstation.  Where I'm afraid is Oracle has 
> removed all Workstations from their product offering and hasn't updated the 
> HPC website for almost a year.  When I read the Hardware Compatability 
> notes for PTC Pro-Engineer WF5, it states there are no current plans for 
> its next generation WF6 MCAD product to be developed on Solaris 10.  This 
> means to me, that funding to keep development going has ceased, from Oracle 
> and PTC.

Oracle is not responsible for what PTC does with PTC Pro-Engineer...

> I believe this is only the tip of the Iceberg.  Without 
> Workstations being offered, the ECAD, MCAD and HPC communities will dry up.

As I said: If you want to run Solaris/OpenSolaris on a workstation, currently
you need to run Solaris/OpenSolaris on a non-Oracle HW. In order to have
Oracle recognize the need or see some revenue, those WorkStations would need
to be in the HCL and you would need to buy a support contract for them. That
might influence Oracle. If it would also influence PTC, I have no idea... ;-)

> Nvidia will waste their time developing a driver which no one can use.  

As stated: Solaris/OpenSolaris runs on more Workstations than only those that
once came from Sun. Have those certified, have those in use and PTC and nVIDIA
might re-think their current position...

> They need applications that require it.  I see IBM, the makers of Catia and 
> Solidworks announced a new CAD program to run on Windows, MacOS and Linux.  
> Where is Solaris/Opensolaris?  If Oracle isn't supporting their OS on 
> Workstations, why should anybody else?

Again: As stated clearly in:


http://www.oracle.com/us/products/servers-storage/solaris/non-sun-x86-081976.html

Solaris IS supported on ALL systems listed as CERTIFIED in the HCL (by
Oracle!). And getting systems into the certified state in the HCL is by
running the HCTS. It's "as easy" as that... That's what I started saying in
the beginning. Yes, it's a chicken/egg problem, but currently there seems to
be no profitable market for Sun/Oracle workstations. Others have higher
volume, and can therefore be cheaper. And cheap counts in many cases. Again:
This is all my thinking!

> Paul

Matthias
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Paul Gress]

On 08/ 4/10 12:48 PM, John Martin wrote:

On 08/ 4/10 11:24 AM, Paul Gress wrote:


Yes I believe that would be true if the OS was developed for
Workstations. The only commitment I see from Oracle is Servers and
Databases. Would CUDA help there?


Large scale GPGPU deployment is being done on servers.



As HPC?, and for what industry?  I guess I don't understand servers.  I 
at one point in time looked at utilizing Sun/Oracle Servers as a HPC for 
my MCAD, but I couldn't determine if any could fit a Nvidia Quadro 
FX5800 graphics card, let alone supply the additional power required.  I 
did find some with a PCI Express x16 slot.  I'm not sure if Oracle is 
pushing this type of computer any more.


Me I would love to see Oracle go gungho with Workstations and HPC's 
again.  I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary yet.


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[John Martin]

On 08/ 4/10 11:24 AM, Paul Gress wrote:


Yes I believe that would be true if the OS was developed for
Workstations. The only commitment I see from Oracle is Servers and
Databases. Would CUDA help there?


Large scale GPGPU deployment is being done on servers.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[valrh...@gmail.com]

So CUDA is for numerical computation, and doesn't involve any display, per se. 
Of course you can visualize your results with the graphics card in many cases 
with OpenGL directly, but that's not the point.

There have long been rumors about a CUDA driver for Solaris / OpenSolaris, but 
it's never been official.

One technical detail: NVIDIA's compilers take either CUDA C -or- OpenCL, and 
compile the source code to a form of assembler called PTX, and that's fed to 
the graphics card. So by CUDA, I mean CUDA and OpenCL, since one driver will 
automatically support both, the way they have it architected and designed. They 
are not stupid; they want people to use their cards, so they support OpenCL 
more than anyone.

And, frankly, vendor independence isn't all it's cracked up to be in this 
situation. ATI/AMD have not invested much effort in getting their act together 
on OpenCL in the real world. Probably 95+% that I know of, doing real 
scientific or engineering work, are doing it with CUDA, because it's much more 
established, and the real investment isn't in the boards, but in the months and 
years it takes to learn the programming paradigm. 

But remember that, with any NVIDIA CUDA driver, it will always support the 
latest OpenCL, too (and any open distribution should loudly insist on that 
capability). It's not that I think people here should spend the resources doing 
that, but more to get in contact with NVIDIA and make sure their drivers are 
available.

I can tell you that it would be PERFECT for us to have a Nexenta-like 
non-desktop distribution based on IllumOS, where we could run a very efficient 
small OS and use it to deploy a lot of GPUs. Much as you want the OS and its 
details to be invisible for NAS storage, just presenting a mapped drive via NFS 
to the user, if you could do the same with a GPU for computing, that owuld be 
ideal. I just need a command line, access to a lot of storage and RAM, and 
that's it. SSHing in and out is perfectly fine; don't even need (or want) much 
of a GUI.

Right now, there is NO platform that would give my data the security and 
management features of ZFS, and the access to GPU computing. If IllumOS could 
do this in a reliable, straightforward manner, I could see it being deployed in 
a lot of places very quickly. Thanks!
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Paul Gress]

On 08/ 4/10 11:40 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:


I guess, I don't get, what you're after?

The nVIDIA device driver is written by nVIDIA, not Oracle!

Solaris/OpenSolaris is not specifically a Server or Workstation OS, it's an
OS. People use it. Oracle/Sun currently only sells server-hardware. So, trying
to derive from that fact, that Solaris/OpenSolaris is only a server OS is a
conclusion done by someone. But, if people would be using Solaris/OpenSolaris
more for Desktop, then that would be helping nVIDIA in porting/migrating (my
guess).

You all here can help with that:

Now with the 3rd-party hardware support option, you only need to certify your
workstations using the HCTS, and buy support contracts... ;-) It's up to the
end-user, what they use the software (or here: the OS) for... ;-)

   


I guess you not getting where I'm going.  Nvidia is not going to write 
device drivers if there's no market.  Without any more HPC and 
Workstations, why would you write it?  I have been using 
Solaris/Opensolaris for 15 years as a Workstation.  I started with an 
Ultra2 running Pro-Engineer a MCAD application, and continued through 
today using Opensolaris on an HPZ800 Workstation.  Where I'm afraid is 
Oracle has removed all Workstations from their product offering and 
hasn't updated the HPC website for almost a year.  When I read the 
Hardware Compatability notes for PTC Pro-Engineer WF5, it states there 
are no current plans for its next generation WF6 MCAD product to be 
developed on Solaris 10.  This means to me, that funding to keep 
development going has ceased, from Oracle and PTC.  I believe this is 
only the tip of the Iceberg.  Without Workstations being offered, the 
ECAD, MCAD and HPC communities will dry up.


Nvidia will waste their time developing a driver which no one can use.  
They need applications that require it.  I see IBM, the makers of Catia 
and Solidworks announced a new CAD program to run on Windows, MacOS and 
Linux.  Where is Solaris/Opensolaris?  If Oracle isn't supporting their 
OS on Workstations, why should anybody else?


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Matthias Pfützner]

You (Paul Gress) wrote:
> On 08/ 4/10 09:40 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
>>
>> I wasn't refering to Illumos adding anything. I just mentioned, that nVIDIA
>> does write the driver for all versions of Solaris and that they are therefore
>> the focal point of contact, just like you mentioned. I only asked you, as you
>> are in good contact with nVIDIA and might have known anything about their
>> possible plans w.r.t. CUDA or OpenCL... ;-) But: I know: No Comment...;-)
>>
>> And: Yes, if there's business, they'll do it, that's for sure...
>
> Yes I believe that would be true if the OS was developed for Workstations.  
> The only commitment I see from Oracle is Servers and Databases.  Would CUDA 
> help there?

I guess, I don't get, what you're after?

The nVIDIA device driver is written by nVIDIA, not Oracle!

Solaris/OpenSolaris is not specifically a Server or Workstation OS, it's an
OS. People use it. Oracle/Sun currently only sells server-hardware. So, trying
to derive from that fact, that Solaris/OpenSolaris is only a server OS is a
conclusion done by someone. But, if people would be using Solaris/OpenSolaris
more for Desktop, then that would be helping nVIDIA in porting/migrating (my
guess).

You all here can help with that:

Now with the 3rd-party hardware support option, you only need to certify your
workstations using the HCTS, and buy support contracts... ;-) It's up to the
end-user, what they use the software (or here: the OS) for... ;-)

  Matthias
-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | I report bugs to Sun and 
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | when I'm not ignored, I'm
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | told that that's the way
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Mike Gerdts]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Paul Gress  wrote:
> On 08/ 4/10 09:40 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
>
> I wasn't refering to Illumos adding anything. I just mentioned, that nVIDIA
> does write the driver for all versions of Solaris and that they are
> therefore
> the focal point of contact, just like you mentioned. I only asked you, as
> you
> are in good contact with nVIDIA and might have known anything about their
> possible plans w.r.t. CUDA or OpenCL... ;-) But: I know: No Comment...;-)
>
> And: Yes, if there's business, they'll do it, that's for sure...
>
>
>
> Yes I believe that would be true if the OS was developed for Workstations.
> The only commitment I see from Oracle is Servers and Databases.  Would CUDA
> help there?
>

CUDA and OpenCL seem to be heavily used in HPC for general purpose
calculations - not necessarily for displaying to a screen.  For
example...

http://www.nvidia.com/object/io_1226945999108.html

-- 
Mike Gerdts
http://mgerdts.blogspot.com/
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Joe Little]

I think people are missing the point here. This is just my $0.02, but
the effort is akin to kernel.org. They are maintaining a fully-open
base system in which others may build a distribution from. It is a lot
of userland too, but its most akin to being kernel, libc, and what one
expects in /sbin. They want to be upstream compatible. If a
distribution wants to use their revision of ON as a _basis_ for their
distribution, great. Efforts to support third party components will
generally sit upon a full distribution, which is not being provided by
IllumOS.

They mentioned that a "distribution" may be released, but its whole
purpose is a bootstrap to help create a more complete full
distribution. If you want a workstation/desktop class, one could for
instance use StormOS or similar, which is a workstation/desktop
edition above Nexenta Core by another third party. We are all talking
about various building blocks here. One can't expect the end product
from the group thats solely focused on engine parts.

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Paul Gress  wrote:
> On 08/ 4/10 09:40 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
>
> I wasn't refering to Illumos adding anything. I just mentioned, that nVIDIA
> does write the driver for all versions of Solaris and that they are
> therefore
> the focal point of contact, just like you mentioned. I only asked you, as
> you
> are in good contact with nVIDIA and might have known anything about their
> possible plans w.r.t. CUDA or OpenCL... ;-) But: I know: No Comment...;-)
>
> And: Yes, if there's business, they'll do it, that's for sure...
>
>
>
> Yes I believe that would be true if the OS was developed for Workstations.
> The only commitment I see from Oracle is Servers and Databases.  Would CUDA
> help there?
>
>
>
> But, like Adrian Cockcroft did twitter last night: "I predict that #illumos
> will be just as irrelevant as Solaris has been for the last few
> years. Legacy."
>
>
>
> Illumos will hopefully move in a somewhat Desktop/Workstation direction.
> But I don't see that for at least 3 months until they get the building
> process streamlined, then they can focus on enhancing it.
>
>
> Paul
>
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>
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Paul Gress]

On 08/ 4/10 09:40 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:


I wasn't refering to Illumos adding anything. I just mentioned, that nVIDIA
does write the driver for all versions of Solaris and that they are therefore
the focal point of contact, just like you mentioned. I only asked you, as you
are in good contact with nVIDIA and might have known anything about their
possible plans w.r.t. CUDA or OpenCL... ;-) But: I know: No Comment...;-)

And: Yes, if there's business, they'll do it, that's for sure...

   



Yes I believe that would be true if the OS was developed for 
Workstations.  The only commitment I see from Oracle is Servers and 
Databases.  Would CUDA help there?





But, like Adrian Cockcroft did twitter last night: "I predict that #illumos
will be just as irrelevant as Solaris has been for the last few
years. Legacy."

   



Illumos will hopefully move in a somewhat Desktop/Workstation 
direction.  But I don't see that for at least 3 months until they get 
the building process streamlined, then they can focus on enhancing it.



Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Matthias Pfützner]

John, you know me!

I only was dissatisfied by Adrian's comment, he also should know better!

  Matthias

You (John Martin) wrote:
> On 08/ 4/10 09:40 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
>
>> But, like Adrian Cockcroft did twitter last night:
>
> Mr. Ellison is backing Solaris.  Pick your horse.
>

-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | I report bugs to Sun and 
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | when I'm not ignored, I'm
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | told that that's the way
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[John Martin]

On 08/ 4/10 09:40 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:


But, like Adrian Cockcroft did twitter last night:


Mr. Ellison is backing Solaris.  Pick your horse.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Matthias Pfützner]

John

You (John Martin) wrote:
> On 08/ 4/10 05:27 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:
>> John Martin, any ideas?
>>
>> As this also would work for the "standard" Solaris, because at least, nVIDIA
>> already does provide the drivers for Solaris...
>
> I don't see how Illumos provides added incentive
> (ignoring potential open versus closed friction).
>
> NVIDIA owns CUDA.  Let them know how many Quadro boards
> you will buy.

I wasn't refering to Illumos adding anything. I just mentioned, that nVIDIA
does write the driver for all versions of Solaris and that they are therefore
the focal point of contact, just like you mentioned. I only asked you, as you
are in good contact with nVIDIA and might have known anything about their
possible plans w.r.t. CUDA or OpenCL... ;-) But: I know: No Comment...;-)

And: Yes, if there's business, they'll do it, that's for sure...

But, like Adrian Cockcroft did twitter last night: "I predict that #illumos
will be just as irrelevant as Solaris has been for the last few
years. Legacy."

And that coming from Adrian, former Mr Solaris... ;-(

Matthias

P.S.: The quote below is from the famous "Unix Haters Handbook", and appears
  here just by accident (/dev/random selection of signatures... ;-) )
-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | I report bugs to Sun and 
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | when I'm not ignored, I'm
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | told that that's the way
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[John Martin]

On 08/ 4/10 05:27 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:

John Martin, any ideas?

As this also would work for the "standard" Solaris, because at least, nVIDIA
already does provide the drivers for Solaris...


I don't see how Illumos provides added incentive
(ignoring potential open versus closed friction).

NVIDIA owns CUDA.  Let them know how many Quadro boards
you will buy.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Peter Jones]

The Illumos Project
Posted: Jul 31, 2010 2:18 AM
To: OpenSolaris » discuss
Cc: Communities » advocacy » discuss

Click to reply to this thread   Reply

A number of the community leaders from the OpenSolaris community have
been working quietly together on a new effort called Illumos, and we're
just about ready to fully disclose our work to, and invite the general
participation of, the general public.

We believe that everyone who is interested in OpenSolaris should be
interested in what we have to say, and so we invite the entire
OpenSolaris community to join us for a presentation on at 1PM EDT on
August 3, 2010.

You can find out the full details of how to listen in to our conference,
or attend in person (we will be announcing from New York City) by
visiting http://www.illumos.org/announce (The final details shall be
posted there not later than 1PM EDT Aug 1, 2010.)

We look forward to seeing you there!

- Garrett D'Amore & the rest of the Illumos Cast


I wish you luck however I hope you will shorten the project name to OSI or ICE 
as the name no doubt will not transfer so easily between 
countries,disabilities, or cultures? Will  you also considering a simplified 
logo of a sun or planet in MAC graphics style which seems very appropriate?
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Tom Kranz]

> If you're going there, I'd be more interested in
> OpenCL, which
> is vendor-independent.  That for Nvidia devices,
> getting to OpenCL
> might also get one to CUDA along the way is to my
> mind secondary.

As an end result, that's a good goal to aim for - but there's already been a 
proof-of-concept port of CUDA to OpenSolaris, and so I'm assuming (eagerly 
hoping, actually) that CUDA could be a realistically achievable short-term 
solution.

Cheers,
TOM
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Richard L. Hamilton]

> John Martin, any ideas?
> 
> As this also would work for the "standard" Solaris,
> because at least, nVIDIA
> already does provide the drivers for Solaris...
> 
> http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_home_new.html
> http://www.nvidia.com/object/what_is_cuda_new.html
> http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cuda_3_1_downloads.
> html
> 
> Also curious, although I guess, I would not do any
> active programming for
> it... ;-)

If you're going there, I'd be more interested in OpenCL, which
is vendor-independent.  That for Nvidia devices, getting to OpenCL
might also get one to CUDA along the way is to my mind secondary.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Matthias Pfützner]

John Martin, any ideas?

As this also would work for the "standard" Solaris, because at least, nVIDIA
already does provide the drivers for Solaris...

http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_home_new.html
http://www.nvidia.com/object/what_is_cuda_new.html
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/cuda_3_1_downloads.html

Also curious, although I guess, I would not do any active programming for
it... ;-)

  Matthias

You (valrh...@gmail.com) wrote:
> Secondarily, is there any possible way you can talk to NVIDIA and get CUDA 
> support running with this? That would be an enormous watershed for some of us 
> who do GPU computing for scientific work. I need a robust filesystem and 
> management (ZFS is my only choice now), and it's painful to have to keep 
> Linux around mainly for CUDA. That would be huge, if you guys could swing it 
> somehow.


-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Sie (Susanne Tamaro) ist 
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | auf eine geradezu hin-
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | reißende Weise blöd.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Ben]

Love the sound of this project!

If there is a fork in the future, do we think that we can just point our 
installs to the Illumos repo and do `pkg image-update`?  Or am I missing the 
point somewhat?

Whatever happens, good luck to you guys!
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Ivan Wang]

One thing I didn't figure out from the announcement, since illumos starts as an 
ON without corporate burden, is there game plan to also get a sample distro 
using illumos ON? Nexenta might be one but probably a more desktop-oriented one 
is needed, the need is like what it was at the time project Indiana is created. 
ON itself does not "market" on its own, nor it is readily usable by who does 
not build everything from the scratch. 

Still, wish all the best to the illumos project and much much appreciation to 
you for putting up this effort. 

Thank you.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Dave Koelmeyer]

> Hmm ... a "spork" ...
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/03/illumos_openso
> laris_spork/ ...

Typical b**chy write-up from Mr Prick-it Morgan. A "spork" eh? He's so talented 
and so funny!
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[valrh...@gmail.com]

Congrats on the new project!

A quick business-case question for you: is there a way you might offer 
something reasonable in return for some financial support / donations from the 
community? There are a lot of us who depend on OpenSolaris, and are frustrated 
by the lack of updates, bug fixes, etc. This is, as you say, like an insurance 
policy. And especially if, going forward, the community coalesces around this. 
The (free) advice I've gotten here on this forum, for example, blows anything 
I've ever seen elsewhere (Linux, in particular, not even thinking about the 
monstrosity from Redmond) out of the water. For those of us who are building 
infrastructure around OpenSolaris now, a free version that will be maintained 
and updated and bug-fixed is an important investment in the future, so we 
aren't orphaned. 

Would community contributions now speed the process, and possibly lead to a 
full-fledged distribution? Or are you guys already all set as far as money 
goes? And is there something you might offer those of us who can pony up some 
reasonable amount of cash to help you developers along? 

Secondarily, is there any possible way you can talk to NVIDIA and get CUDA 
support running with this? That would be an enormous watershed for some of us 
who do GPU computing for scientific work. I need a robust filesystem and 
management (ZFS is my only choice now), and it's painful to have to keep Linux 
around mainly for CUDA. That would be huge, if you guys could swing it somehow.

Thanks so much for doing this!!
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Jonathan Adams]

Hmm ... a "spork" ... 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/03/illumos_opensolaris_spork/ ...

I like it, I'm glad because it means there is a better looking future after 
build 134.

At the end of the day I'd love it if Oracle just started talking and carried on 
developing the project as a community ... but as I'm sure Garrett has worked 
out that is very unlikely to happen without a shove, and unlikely to happen to 
as much of an extent as both of us would like.
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Euan Thoms]

I'm so excited and I just can't hide it. I about to loose control.. 
and wait a minute, I can't attend the webinar unless I have Windows or Mac OS. 
"Add to your Outlook Calendar", WTF!!! Oh well, guess I'll just go to bed early 
and catch the news tomorrow on my OpenSolaris or Linux box. Sounds very 
promising... and just when I was about to give up on opensolaris.  :-)
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Dave Koelmeyer]

> Maybe it's as simple as a few people getting
> sufficiently sick of seeing 
> the discussion boards full of people saying "Someone
> should do this" and 
> "Someone should do that"; and decided to simply do
> something instead of 
> complaining that someone else should do something?

If it's anything like the current distro, with *affordable* paid support in 
line with pre-Oracle arrangements, then I'm in. 

Dave
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Bruno Sousa]

Well, personally i would prefer if they all kept their work within
Oracle/Sun, but let's see what this Illumos project will be..

Interesting that they have people from Nexenta, and the site is hosted
within Stanford University Network...so back to home? ;)

Bruno
On 2-8-2010 21:43, Edward Martinez wrote:
>> A number of the community leaders from the
>> OpenSolaris community have
>> been working quietly together on a new effort called
>> Illumos, and we're
>> just about ready to fully disclose our work to, and
>> invite the general
>> participation of, the general public.
>>
>> We believe that everyone who is interested in
>> OpenSolaris should be
>> interested in what we have to say, and so we invite
>> the entire
>> OpenSolaris community to join us for a presentation
>> on at 1PM EDT on
>> August 3, 2010.
>>
>> You can find out the full details of how to listen in
>> to our conference,
>> or attend in person (we will be announcing from New
>> York City) by
>> visiting http://www.illumos.org/announce (The final
>> details shall be
>> posted there not later than 1PM EDT Aug 1, 2010.)
>>
>> We look forward to seeing you there!
>>
>>   - Garrett D'Amore & the rest of the Illumos Cast
>> 
> I think it would  be awesome, if former Solaris devs that used to work for 
> SUN would  be invited to participate in illunos, people like: Bryan Cantrill, 
> Bill Moore, Greg Lanvender,etc  in a way, It would be  like getting the SUN 
> band together;)
>   


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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Edward Martinez]

> A number of the community leaders from the
> OpenSolaris community have
> been working quietly together on a new effort called
> Illumos, and we're
> just about ready to fully disclose our work to, and
> invite the general
> participation of, the general public.
> 
> We believe that everyone who is interested in
> OpenSolaris should be
> interested in what we have to say, and so we invite
> the entire
> OpenSolaris community to join us for a presentation
> on at 1PM EDT on
> August 3, 2010.
> 
> You can find out the full details of how to listen in
> to our conference,
> or attend in person (we will be announcing from New
> York City) by
> visiting http://www.illumos.org/announce (The final
> details shall be
> posted there not later than 1PM EDT Aug 1, 2010.)
> 
> We look forward to seeing you there!
> 
>   - Garrett D'Amore & the rest of the Illumos Cast

I think it would  be awesome, if former Solaris devs that used to work for SUN 
would  be invited to participate in illunos, people like: Bryan Cantrill, Bill 
Moore, Greg Lanvender,etc  in a way, It would be  like getting the SUN band 
together;)
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[ken mays]

--- On Mon, 8/2/10, Joerg Schilling  wrote:

> 
> > I think that is something very much deep inside the
> community - the
> > love for secrecy.
> 
> Every project starts "in the secret". If you like to come
> up with something 
> that looks seriously and that is working, you need to
> prepare it. Even SchilliX 
> was not done within 3 days between June 14th and June 17th
> 2005 but in the six 
> months before and few people did know about this.
> 
> Eric Raymond said: "Release early and release often". He
> did not say release 
> immediately.
> 
> > Remember "Secret Six" - many years ago when Sun
> stopped Solaris x86.
> > Then OpenSolaris Pilot, then many OpenSolaris
> projects, that were done secretly.
> Jörg

Some group name like the 'Deep Six' or 'Illuminus' (i.e. 'Illuminati')?

Ref: http://www.illumos.org/projects/site/wiki/Announcement

The Illumos website looks grand and it seems a well-spirited direction 
to foster community development and focus for an OpenSolaris-based distro.
Not the 'one-person' show of many community distros where resources and funding 
are always constrained.

The Illumos founders are a very capable group. I imagine visionary leaders like 
Mark Shuttleworth or Garrett D' Amore leading the pack.

As they say in the movies, godspeed

~ Ken Mays
P.S. Possible Illumos trailer?   
http://www.nick.com/videos/clip/NTV_clone_wars_trailer.html



  
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Stefan Parvu]

> I think that is something very much deep inside the community - the
> love for secrecy.
> Remember "Secret Six" - many years ago when Sun stopped Solaris x86.
> Then OpenSolaris Pilot, then many OpenSolaris projects, that were done 
> secretly.

I do recall every bit of it and I do recall how hard time
I had to explain to other people and convince them about OSOL, all
these stories and fictions - they are real and exist ! Cmon!

As I said to John already, if Garret is up to something 
thats very cool and laudable and he should properly 
announce his effort. He did publish some weeks ago an 
entry in his blog saying just wait, we all be saved
and delivered - Whats that, what should we understand out of it ?
That they are building a new distro ? Who they , why, how !?
And why on his blog ? If he is talking about OSOL normal place
would be under OSOL mailing list not on wordpress, blogspot ...

In addition, if he is up to something he should first publish and
set some minimal goals open to anybody *before* making a
teleconference, announcing his work, project. He should
gather opinions, if he wants community - for instance
hosting, servers, contributions, members, names, colors
etc etc... From day 0 !

I will keep quiet now, but at least thats my opinion.
 
> It is quite hard to change people' mind and way of thinking. We (community) 
> will
> get there (being open) eventually, but it will take quite some time.

I hope, we will.

stefan 
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Joerg Schilling]

Cyril Plisko  wrote:

> I think that is something very much deep inside the community - the
> love for secrecy.

Every project starts "in the secret". If you like to come up with something 
that looks seriously and that is working, you need to prepare it. Even SchilliX 
was not done within 3 days between June 14th and June 17th 2005 but in the six 
months before and few people did know about this.

Eric Raymond said: "Release early and release often". He did not say release 
immediately.

> Remember "Secret Six" - many years ago when Sun stopped Solaris x86.
> Then OpenSolaris Pilot, then many OpenSolaris projects, that were done 
> secretly.

At that time Sun did say we are willing to talk with six fou you (but not John 
Groenveld). I see no relation to the sutuation we currently have. Oracle is not
talking with the community and if this did change, the OGB did announce this in 
public.


Jörg

-- 
 EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)  
   joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: 
http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Damian Wojsław]

Quoting Alan Hargreaves - Principal Field Technologist  
:


[cut]

get there (being open) eventually, but it will take quite some time.
Maybe it's as simple as a few people getting sufficiently sick of  
seeing the discussion boards full of people saying "Someone should  
do this" and "Someone should do that"; and decided to simply do  
something instead of complaining that someone else should do  
something?


Alan Hargreaves
(who really has no idea what they will be announcing)


And then maybe just they wouldn't like to promise something they  
wouldn't be able to deliver? This is difficult time to anything  
OpenSolaris related and if I was to put together something, I'd try to  
make it work first and then invite people, rather than shouting around  
that I'm going to build new distro and then not being able to for any  
reason.


Regards


--
Damian Wojsław



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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Alan Hargreaves - Principal Field Technologist]

 On 08/02/10 17:20, Cyril Plisko wrote:

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Stefan Parvu  wrote:

A number of the community leaders from the OpenSolaris community have
been working quietly together on a new effort called Illumos, and we're

Why quietly ? Is this a secret organization or !? If you value the community why
haven't you talked public *before* your project has started ?

I think that is something very much deep inside the community - the
love for secrecy.
Remember "Secret Six" - many years ago when Sun stopped Solaris x86.
Then OpenSolaris Pilot, then many OpenSolaris projects, that were done secretly.

It is quite hard to change people' mind and way of thinking. We (community) will
get there (being open) eventually, but it will take quite some time.
Maybe it's as simple as a few people getting sufficiently sick of seeing 
the discussion boards full of people saying "Someone should do this" and 
"Someone should do that"; and decided to simply do something instead of 
complaining that someone else should do something?


Alan Hargreaves
(who really has no idea what they will be announcing)
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Cyril Plisko]

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:40 AM, Stefan Parvu  wrote:
>>A number of the community leaders from the OpenSolaris community have
>>been working quietly together on a new effort called Illumos, and we're
>
> Why quietly ? Is this a secret organization or !? If you value the community 
> why
> haven't you talked public *before* your project has started ?

I think that is something very much deep inside the community - the
love for secrecy.
Remember "Secret Six" - many years ago when Sun stopped Solaris x86.
Then OpenSolaris Pilot, then many OpenSolaris projects, that were done secretly.

It is quite hard to change people' mind and way of thinking. We (community) will
get there (being open) eventually, but it will take quite some time.



-- 
Regards,
        Cyril
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Re: [osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Stefan Parvu]

>A number of the community leaders from the OpenSolaris community have
>been working quietly together on a new effort called Illumos, and we're

Why quietly ? Is this a secret organization or !? If you value the community why
haven't you talked public *before* your project has started ? 

thanks,
stefan
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[osol-discuss] The Illumos Project

[Garrett D'Amore]

A number of the community leaders from the OpenSolaris community have
been working quietly together on a new effort called Illumos, and we're
just about ready to fully disclose our work to, and invite the general
participation of, the general public.

We believe that everyone who is interested in OpenSolaris should be
interested in what we have to say, and so we invite the entire
OpenSolaris community to join us for a presentation on at 1PM EDT on
August 3, 2010.

You can find out the full details of how to listen in to our conference,
or attend in person (we will be announcing from New York City) by
visiting http://www.illumos.org/announce (The final details shall be
posted there not later than 1PM EDT Aug 1, 2010.)

We look forward to seeing you there!

  - Garrett D'Amore & the rest of the Illumos Cast
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