Re: [opensource-dev] SL 2.0 latest release notes where??

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Montag 01 März 2010 schrieb Boroondas Gupte:
> Robert Martin schrieb:
> > Okay who hid the release notes for the latest (as of today)
> > SecondLife 2.0 viewer??
> 
> from the blog
>  0/03/01/viewer-2-beta-update>: "Aside from the voice SDK, no
>  additional changes were implemented."
> 
> The vivox SDK isn't part of the viewer source. So the remaining
>  question is still the difference between the exported, Snowglobe
>  re-branded source and the one used for the official beta builds.


- the snowglobe rebranded source does not build on linux without 
manual intervention
- the resulting binary does not work properly (complains about a 
broken llwebkit plugin on startup & every time you encounter html on a 
prim)



...that enough?


in light of the fact that there IS a linux binary for 2.0 beta, which 
works (within the limits of 2.0 beta), without showing the problems 
that I've been experiencing with the resulting binary from building 
snowglobe 2.0, I can safely assume that there are bigger differences 
between snowglobe 2.0 and secondlife 2.0 beta than just a few string 
constants in llversionviever.h... way bigger.

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[opensource-dev] BSD viewer talk from realXtend. Tuesday, 8:30 AM SLT

[Lawson English]

Tuesday's AW groupies meeting will be held an hour early at 8:30 AM PST at
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/ThorneBridgeTown/156/130/22

We will be hearing from members of the realxtend team about their naali 
viewer project and other realxtend stuff. Realxtend is an organization  
creating a SL-compatible virtual world sim software based on OpenSim. 
Naali is a from-scratch viewer that is being developed independently of 
Linden Lab.


http://www.realxtend.org/http://opensimulator.org/wiki/RealXtend

some background and current dev focus:

http://wiki.realxtend.org/index.php/Platform_Extensibility_Working_Group

IM Saijanai Kuhn in-world for a Groupies invite if the SLURL doesn't work.


Cya there.


Lawson
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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim & physics prediction

[Dzonatas Sol]

Being able to distribute physic data about objects in a passive manner 
has nothing to do with being able to network chat itself in a 
non-passive manner.

Argent Stonecutter wrote:
> If you don't mind days round trip for each line of chat.
>
> On 2010-02-28, at 14:05, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
>
>   
>> This is perfect then...
>>
>> If you are scheduled to meet in a sim later in the week, then why  
>> worry if all the static objects take a day to download from that sim  
>> through archaic usenet means. You would already have all the object  
>> information needed for physics and to render in a local storage.
>>
>> By the time everybody meets, there would be no lag to suddenly  
>> download all objects from a single host.
>>
>> Times that by 10,000 people... just for scalability concerns.
>>
>> Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2010-02-25, at 15:12, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
>>>   
 [Usenet] worked. It is still free and open.
 
>>> It used to be. It's getting harder and harder to get feeds these  
>>> days. Everyone just reads through Google Groups rather than trying  
>>> to find someone with a feed. SL and OpenSim started with the  
>>> equivalent of "Google Groups" already live.
>>>
>>> It wasn't even vaguely real-time. It was *OK* that the stanford- 
>>> munnari link was a daily airmailed magtape, nobody cared if their  
>>> newsfeed was a day behind.
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>
> "Welcome back, Anonymous, we're glad to see you again!"
>
>
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[opensource-dev] Fwd: Fwd: Third party viewer policy - RMS's response

[Gareth Nelson]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Richard Stallman 
Date: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy
To: Gareth Nelson 


   Thought this might be of interest to yourself and the FSF in general,
   they're essentially claiming "if your viewer is capable of talking to our
   servers, then it's bound by this long list of conditions"

IANAL, but I don't think they have any legal basis to impose any
conditions on a program merely because it is capable of talking to
their site.  If its developers have no accounts on Second Life, they
have not agreed to its terms of service.  It would be interesting to
see what a lawyer says about this.

They talk about publishing a list of third-party viewers, and they
could certainly insist on these conditions for listing a viewer in
that list.  Maybe that is all they are claiming to do.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Richard Stallman 
Date: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy
To: Gareth Nelson 


It is ok to forward my message.

   They are now saying that they'll only hold developers responsible if a
   viewer is designed to connect to their servers

It's nice of them to recognize that they can't make these demands
about general-purpose programs.  But their claim to have the power to
impose any conditions on designing a program to talk to their server
remains controversial.  I suggest asking a lawyer about it.
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-01, at 16:50, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
> It's their problem and yours really. And not one that apply in this
> environment.

Yes, that was my point, The analogy doesn't apply.

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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton  wrote:

> I talked about banning every unknown or unidentified viewer that is not in
> the registry should I have a way to detect the viewer agent. Just like I
> have the right to restrict an unidentified web agent or telling an Internet
> Explorer 6.0 user than I do not support their obsolete browsers from my
> site.

Hmmph.  A SL region (especially a mainland one) is not exactly the
same as your private webserver.

In any case, you've been directed to the relevant JIRA, which is the
appropriate forum for Server/LSL enhancement requests.
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Bryon Ruxton]

It's not a concern that apply in this environment.

It would be an issue between the grid and the TPV developers to resolve.
Land owners don't control the markup language structure of their 3d
environment.


On 3/1/10 2:25 PM, "Argent Stonecutter"  wrote:

> On 2010-03-01, at 16:13, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
>> I talked about banning every unknown or unidentified viewer that is
>> not in
>> the registry should I have a way to detect the viewer agent. Just
>> like I
>> have the right to restrict an unidentified web agent or telling an
>> Internet
>> Explorer 6.0 user than I do not support their obsolete browsers from
>> my
>> site.
> 
> There are several sites where I have to lie about my browser, because
> their browser selection logic is screwed up.
> 
> Like the ones that only work if I set the user agent to IE6 or IE5.5.
> 
> Like the ones that insist I use Netscape Navigator 4 or better and
> don't work on Firefox.
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [opensource-dev] SL 2.0 latest release notes where??

[Soft Linden]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Robert Martin  wrote:
> Okay who hid the release notes for the latest (as of today) SecondLife
> 2.0 viewer??
>
> (aka what did they fix and whats newly broken)

It's not hidden. There aren't any notes, as there were no changes to
our code - just the voice daemon. That had some regressions that
didn't make old features work identically to the version we bundled
with 1.23.

https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/technology/release/blog/2010/03/01/viewer-2-beta-update

There's a huge pile of fixes to the viewer code that will ship in beta
4, but that's not dropping this week afaik. If you don't get change
notes on our own code, make noise again then.

Thanks!
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Re: [opensource-dev] SL 2.0 latest release notes where??

[Boroondas Gupte]

Robert Martin schrieb:
> Okay who hid the release notes for the latest (as of today) SecondLife
> 2.0 viewer??
from the blog
:
"Aside from the voice SDK, no additional changes were implemented."

The vivox SDK isn't part of the viewer source. So the remaining question
is still the difference between the exported, Snowglobe re-branded
source and the one used for the official beta builds.

cheers
Boroondas
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Re: [opensource-dev] SL 2.0 latest release notes where??

[Boroondas Gupte]

Robert Martin schrieb:
> Okay who hid the release notes for the latest (as of today) SecondLife
> 2.0 viewer??
from the blog
:
"Aside from the voice SDK, no additional changes were implemented."

The vivox SDK isn't part of the viewer source. So the remaining question
is still the difference between the exported, Snowglobe re-branded
source and the one used for the official beta builds.

cheers
Boroondas
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-01, at 16:13, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
> I talked about banning every unknown or unidentified viewer that is  
> not in
> the registry should I have a way to detect the viewer agent. Just  
> like I
> have the right to restrict an unidentified web agent or telling an  
> Internet
> Explorer 6.0 user than I do not support their obsolete browsers from  
> my
> site.

There are several sites where I have to lie about my browser, because  
their browser selection logic is screwed up.

Like the ones that only work if I set the user agent to IE6 or IE5.5.

Like the ones that insist I use Netscape Navigator 4 or better and  
don't work on Firefox.

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[opensource-dev] SL 2.0 latest release notes where??

[Robert Martin]

Okay who hid the release notes for the latest (as of today) SecondLife
2.0 viewer??

(aka what did they fix and whats newly broken)

-- 
Robert L Martin
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Bryon Ruxton]

Carlo,

I talked about banning every unknown or unidentified viewer that is not in
the registry should I have a way to detect the viewer agent. Just like I
have the right to restrict an unidentified web agent or telling an Internet
Explorer 6.0 user than I do not support their obsolete browsers from my
site. There is no violation of your privacy. This is regulation and policy
within my own land, for my user base and customers protection.

If a developer wants to test his own viewer, he is free go to a developer
sandbox reserved to that effect (where they allow it), or on its own land.
The bottom line is that if a TPV developer is not taking measures to be in
the registry, there is no reason for me to trust and allow that viewer to
enter my land. Others can make their own assessments as they see fit.

Initially, I thought LL was to restrict unidentified viewers all together.
And I can see why that could a bit much. Although you know there is a beta
grid for testing and if LL really wanted maximum security they could very
well do that and only allow testing (unidentified viewers) on the beta grid.
You are left with with those who can spoof other viewers but nevertheless it
would be a solid measure.

And when I mean viewer, I mean the viewer mainly. I agree that an Avatar
shouldn't be necessarily banned everywhere for using such viewer in one
location under the currently assumed policy. That's a legit concern to have
as a developer. I personally wouldn't support such drastic measures and
don't endorse or use the type of device you describe. The reason such
imperfect measures exists though, is precisely because there are no
alternatives at this time.

All I am asking is the minimum standards which currently apply to browsers.
Some kind of cookies down the road would be nice too.

> DO NOT ADD YOUR VIEWER... at least not until
> the great majority agrees with the literal wording of the final
> published TPV policy, and we're far from that.
nods

On 3/1/10 5:04 AM, "Carlo Wood"  wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 07:55:57PM -0800, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
>> Of course, I know that Tigro. But just like any web site can detect a
>> user-agent and block it, I'd like to be able to detect the viewer agent,
>> (perhaps via llGetAgentInfo) of the avatar getting on my land anyway.
>> Such would be useful for various other reasons such a compatibility checks,
>> analysis of traffic sources, who you visitors are etc...
> 
> Actually, since you clearly WILL use this info to ban people from
> your shops,... it's a violation of privacy.
> 
> Look at that scam object that was released not long ago, being
> sold for a monthly fee of L$ 700... It adds peoples names to
> a central database once they are detected (hopefully without
> any false-positives) to use a known-bad viewer (ie, neillife
> or cryolife, listed by name in the blog threads). Result:
> that account is from then on banned in EVERY sim that uses
> this object. There is so much wrong with that that I won't
> even begin.
> 
> Add to that remarks in the said blog like "every possible
> banned thief is a benefit", and the conclusion is easy:
> If LL makes the agent ID's public, people will soon ban
> *ALL* minor TPV's (being all of them, except maybe emerald,
> because that has already a pretty large userbase) "just in case".
> 
> The result: Total death to all TPV development; nobody will
> be able to start with their own new viewer, because nobody
> will use a viewer that is instantly banned JUST because it's
> used by a minority and you "never know if won't be stealing
> my stuff".
> 
> Hence, privacy.


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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Miro]

I have not seen any post from a Linden endorsing  (or anything, for that 
matter) this product.

On 03/01/2010 03:37 PM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> i thought LL had approved the methods used...
>
> On 1/3/2010 03:25, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) wrote:
>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
>>   wrote:
>>> Without proofs that might have just as well have come from the butt of
>>> Neil or some other person pissed at Skills for catching their customers
>>> using malicious clients.
>>
>> Since the methods are secret, we have only the vendor's word that they
>> are legitimate and legal.
>>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkuMJXUACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmU6iwCeOSHd+HdtrqPB+DtwSzavgPxA
> n88An22Itfs4HynuIs09cN2LukJLuO00
> =NSCL
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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-- 
Co-owner, Animations Rising: http://tinyurl.com/l959f2
Digital art by Miro: http://tinyurl.com/lwtw3q
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

i can't see that video because it got copywrong from Vevo and Vevo don't
like my country...

was that by anychance a rickroll?

On 1/3/2010 11:59, Robert Martin wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Lance Corrimal
>  wrote:
> 
>> set the media url to something that is not an url to a video, but the url of 
>> a
>> script that exploits something in quicktime to gather data about the client
>> requesting that url, and poof you have all kind of cans of worms wide open.
>>
>>
>> ...and "flash on a prim" isn't going to make the whole grid more stable and
>> secure either.
>>
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> 
> What would help is having the Shared Media happen inside a sandboxed browser
> (hint lock down the embedded browser) if you have the right limits and
> locks then the worst thing that could happen is they see this
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ.
> 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkuMJcEACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmXquACfTIHn4LUE8enkJPxmiepkDYzS
wE8An00Cr5FmsVf1jXxFIgIZbDMjLYot
=09q3
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

i thought LL had approved the methods used...

On 1/3/2010 03:25, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
>  wrote:
>> Without proofs that might have just as well have come from the butt of
>> Neil or some other person pissed at Skills for catching their customers
>> using malicious clients.
> 
> Since the methods are secret, we have only the vendor's word that they
> are legitimate and legal.
> 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkuMJXUACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmU6iwCeOSHd+HdtrqPB+DtwSzavgPxA
n88An22Itfs4HynuIs09cN2LukJLuO00
=NSCL
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Thomas Shikami]

Lance Corrimal schrieb:
> /me snickers
> what was the name of this other pseudo virtual world that runs on flash 
> inside 
> a browser...
>
> that should work on a prim, shouldn't it?
> ___
>   
Lively by Google?
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Thomas Shikami]

Just a quick intermezzo to stop confusion...
TPV is about Third Party Viewers... LL's viewer (not Snowglobe) will 
always comply. About prohibited use, I'll assume that there will be 
something added along, that features present in LL's original viewers 
are allowed in TPV as well. Like exporting full permissive textures, 
copy/pasting text in Notecards to export/change creator. Copy/Pasting 
scripts to export/change creator and overcome permissions to transfer 
and/or modify.
I hope, that this will be addressed in the TPV the way that features 
LL's viewer provides, will not be outruled in TPV.

Two other things I hope, freebie exporting will not be allowed. And; 
There'll be a permissions flag that will allow creators to allow their 
creation to be exported into other grids... a flag which might also 
allow automatic export through grids.
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Montag, 1. März 2010 16:28:47 schrieb Argent Stonecutter:

> > ...and "flash on a prim" isn't going to make the whole grid more
> > stable and
> > secure either.
> 
> No, I've been arguing that "web on a prim" was a bad idea for some
> years now. Yes, I'm enjoying the schadenfreude, thank you very much.
 


/me snickers
what was the name of this other pseudo virtual world that runs on flash inside 
a browser...

that should work on a prim, shouldn't it?
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-03-01, at 08:49, Lance Corrimal wrote:

> Am Montag, 1. März 2010 15:42:00 schrieb Argent Stonecutter:
>> On 2010-02-28, at 21:30, Miro wrote:
>>> You might wish to make time to read this (very long) thread, if you
>>> have
>>> not already:
>>>
>>> https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/10467
>>>
>>> Some research has been done into how the device works. Apparently it
>>> exploits a vulnerability in QuickTime to access users' computers and
>>> "mine" information about what software is, or was, installed on  
>>> them.
>>
>> I think people are misunderstanding what's going on here.
>>
>> Quicktime doesn't listen on port 80.
>>
>> Parcel video depends on Quicktime. If you uninstall quicktime, parcel
>> video doesn't work.
>>
>> This is almost certainly someone misinterpreting a parcel media
>> request FROM the viewer to port 80 on an external server.
>
> so what?
> set the media url to something that is not an url to a video, but  
> the url of a
> script that exploits something in quicktime to gather data about the  
> client
> requesting that url, and poof you have all kind of cans of worms  
> wide open.

That's true, but the evidence so far provided is consistent with them  
doing no more than stripping IPs out.

> ...and "flash on a prim" isn't going to make the whole grid more  
> stable and
> secure either.

No, I've been arguing that "web on a prim" was a bad idea for some  
years now. Yes, I'm enjoying the schadenfreude, thank you very much.
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Montag, 1. März 2010 15:59:17 schrieb Robert Martin:
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Lance Corrimal
> 
>  wrote:
> > set the media url to something that is not an url to a video, but the url
> > of a script that exploits something in quicktime to gather data about the
> > client requesting that url, and poof you have all kind of cans of worms
> > wide open.
> >
> >
> > ...and "flash on a prim" isn't going to make the whole grid more stable
> > and secure either.
> What would help is having the Shared Media happen inside a sandboxed
>  browser (hint lock down the embedded browser) if you have the right limits
>  and locks then the worst thing that could happen is they see this
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ.



that would be the sensible thing to do.

... any bets that even if someone would code that into snowglobe 2.0, it 
wouldn't make it into the official stock viewer?
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Morgaine]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Argent Stonecutter
wrote:

> Then make the policy state that. Right now people are seeing it as
> ambiguous.



+1 Argent.

Joe has provided very clear and totally unambiguous phrasings, LL please use
them.

While lawyers may thrive on pocket-lining ambiguity which empowers them to
shift the goal posts at will when applying the rules or in court, it is not
in the interest of the community for the wording of ToS, TPV or FAQ to be
ambiguous.  Get rid of the previous mess on this issue and use Joe's
formulation, please.

It vastly simplifies GPL compliance when the statements concerning
developers, users, and viewers connecting to SL are entirely separate.  It
then becomes very easy to identify that there are no "further restrictions"
on the developer's GPL-guaranteed *freedoms to modify and distribute* GPL
software.  Restrictions that apply to viewers when they connect to SL, or
restrictions that apply to users of SL, are of no interest to the GPL at
all, so making sure that developers do not appear in any statement
concerning restrictions is the key to GPL compliance.  It's really easy to
be GPL compliant.

Joe's post here is entirely compliant with GPLv2 clause 6, purely because of
that clean separation.  This same approach of keeping the three targets of
restrictions separate needs to be used also when the other areas of GPL
non-compliance are addressed.  It will then be easy to make rapid progress.

It's worth highlighting the importance of the phrase "viewers when they
connect to SL", or "we're only talking about conditions that apply when a
TPV connects to Linden Lab's grid(s)" as Joe wrote.  This is crucial.  It
means that LL's restrictions do not apply to the same viewer being used on
an independent grid for example.  Joe's clear qualification of "viewer" with
"connecting to SL" is a community-friendly form of wording that clearly
limits the scope of restrictions to SL alone, and it isolates "modify and
distribute" from "use" perfectly for GPL purposes.


Morgaine.






===

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Argent Stonecutter
wrote:

>
> On 2010-02-28, at 19:36, Joe Linden wrote:
>
>  TPV developers may choose to list their viewers in the Directory for the
>> value of receiving a wider awareness than they may be able to create
>> themselves, or not.  That's entirely up to the developer.  All viewers that
>> connect to the SL grids will need to abide by the TPV Policy regardless of
>> their choice to list in the Directory.
>>
>> And, since we're only talking about conditions that apply when a TPV
>> connects to Linden Lab's grid(s), we reserve the right to add, subtract, or
>> otherwise modify those conditions at any point in the future.
>>
>
> Then make the policy state that. Right now people are seeing it as
> ambiguous.
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Robert Martin]

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Lance Corrimal
 wrote:

> set the media url to something that is not an url to a video, but the url of a
> script that exploits something in quicktime to gather data about the client
> requesting that url, and poof you have all kind of cans of worms wide open.
>
>
> ...and "flash on a prim" isn't going to make the whole grid more stable and
> secure either.
>
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What would help is having the Shared Media happen inside a sandboxed browser
(hint lock down the embedded browser) if you have the right limits and
locks then the worst thing that could happen is they see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ.

-- 
Robert L Martin
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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim & physics prediction

[Lawson English]

We DO use Second Life chat, afterall...


Argent Stonecutter wrote:
> If you don't mind days round trip for each line of chat.
>
> On 2010-02-28, at 14:05, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
>
>   
>> This is perfect then...
>>
>> 
[...]
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Montag, 1. März 2010 15:42:00 schrieb Argent Stonecutter:
> On 2010-02-28, at 21:30, Miro wrote:
> > You might wish to make time to read this (very long) thread, if you
> > have
> > not already:
> >
> > https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/10467
> >
> > Some research has been done into how the device works. Apparently it
> > exploits a vulnerability in QuickTime to access users' computers and
> > "mine" information about what software is, or was, installed on them.
> 
> I think people are misunderstanding what's going on here.
> 
> Quicktime doesn't listen on port 80.
> 
> Parcel video depends on Quicktime. If you uninstall quicktime, parcel
> video doesn't work.
> 
> This is almost certainly someone misinterpreting a parcel media
> request FROM the viewer to port 80 on an external server.

so what?
set the media url to something that is not an url to a video, but the url of a 
script that exploits something in quicktime to gather data about the client 
requesting that url, and poof you have all kind of cans of worms wide open.


...and "flash on a prim" isn't going to make the whole grid more stable and 
secure either.

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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-02-28, at 21:49, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> hm, i didn't thought he did collect IP addresses, but even if the  
> system
> does catch IP addresses (which isn't such a big deal if you keep your
> machine safe) an IP address wouldn't be of any help identifying
> malicious clients, unless the malicious clients in question routed  
> stuff
> thru a known proxy.

If you read the thread they're talking about the ability of the system  
to identify alts.

Which is precisely what a simple IP sniffer using parcel media would  
be good for.

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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-02-28, at 21:30, Miro wrote:

> You might wish to make time to read this (very long) thread, if you  
> have
> not already:
>
> https://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/10467
>
> Some research has been done into how the device works. Apparently it
> exploits a vulnerability in QuickTime to access users' computers and
> "mine" information about what software is, or was, installed on them.

I think people are misunderstanding what's going on here.

Quicktime doesn't listen on port 80.

Parcel video depends on Quicktime. If you uninstall quicktime, parcel  
video doesn't work.

This is almost certainly someone misinterpreting a parcel media  
request FROM the viewer to port 80 on an external server.

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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-02-28, at 19:36, Joe Linden wrote:

> TPV developers may choose to list their viewers in the Directory for  
> the value of receiving a wider awareness than they may be able to  
> create themselves, or not.  That's entirely up to the developer.   
> All viewers that connect to the SL grids will need to abide by the  
> TPV Policy regardless of their choice to list in the Directory.
>
> And, since we're only talking about conditions that apply when a TPV  
> connects to Linden Lab's grid(s), we reserve the right to add,  
> subtract, or otherwise modify those conditions at any point in the  
> future.

Then make the policy state that. Right now people are seeing it as  
ambiguous.
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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim & physics prediction

[Argent Stonecutter]

If you don't mind days round trip for each line of chat.

On 2010-02-28, at 14:05, Dzonatas Sol wrote:

> This is perfect then...
>
> If you are scheduled to meet in a sim later in the week, then why  
> worry if all the static objects take a day to download from that sim  
> through archaic usenet means. You would already have all the object  
> information needed for physics and to render in a local storage.
>
> By the time everybody meets, there would be no lag to suddenly  
> download all objects from a single host.
>
> Times that by 10,000 people... just for scalability concerns.
>
> Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>> On 2010-02-25, at 15:12, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
>>> [Usenet] worked. It is still free and open.
>>
>> It used to be. It's getting harder and harder to get feeds these  
>> days. Everyone just reads through Google Groups rather than trying  
>> to find someone with a feed. SL and OpenSim started with the  
>> equivalent of "Google Groups" already live.
>>
>> It wasn't even vaguely real-time. It was *OK* that the stanford- 
>> munnari link was a daily airmailed magtape, nobody cared if their  
>> newsfeed was a day behind.
>>
>>
>

"Welcome back, Anonymous, we're glad to see you again!"


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Re: [opensource-dev] Doxygen For SnowGlobe 2.0

[JB Hancroft]

Typo, "schmypo"... thanks for posting it!  :)

- JB

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:13 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) <
mag...@matrisync.com> wrote:

> Nice. But...erm..."Snowgobe Documentation 2.0"? :-)
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Brandon Husbands  wrote:
> >  http://dimentox.com/sg2dox/  snowglobe2 doxygen
> >  full zip http://www.dimentox.com/html.zip
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Marine Kelley]

Bzzt. It has changed name recently. But thanks. lol

That's because we don't frequent the same people I guess... Fret not  
though, your Emerald includes RLV actually. Smile, you've been  
assimilated ! *winks*



On 1 mars 2010, at 14:18, Carlo Wood  wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 02:15:16PM +0100, Marine Kelley wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If LL makes the agent ID's public, people will soon ban
>>> *ALL* minor TPV's (being all of them, except maybe emerald,
>>> because that has already a pretty large userbase) "just in case".
>>>
>> Ahem ! Define "minor" TPV please.
>
> *and* Restrained Life, of course ;) (sorry, it's just that I never
> hear about your viewer while in-world, while lots of people
> talk about using emerald). But that probably has to do more
> with me than anything else :p
>
> Not making a joke about liking to be banned in the first place,
> Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 02:15:16PM +0100, Marine Kelley wrote:
> 
> >
> >If LL makes the agent ID's public, people will soon ban
> >*ALL* minor TPV's (being all of them, except maybe emerald,
> >because that has already a pretty large userbase) "just in case".
> >
> Ahem ! Define "minor" TPV please.

*and* Restrained Life, of course ;) (sorry, it's just that I never
hear about your viewer while in-world, while lots of people
talk about using emerald). But that probably has to do more
with me than anything else :p

Not making a joke about liking to be banned in the first place,
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Marine Kelley]

>
> If LL makes the agent ID's public, people will soon ban
> *ALL* minor TPV's (being all of them, except maybe emerald,
> because that has already a pretty large userbase) "just in case".
>
Ahem ! Define "minor" TPV please. 
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:15:28PM -0500, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)  
wrote:
> There is already at least one viewer developer who is also selling a
> product claiming to identify (by some secret proprietary means)
> avatars running "bad" viewers and ban them.

Scenario:

Newbie visits Second life.
Newbie tries out a few viewers to see which he likes best, and settles with 
Snowglobe.
Newbie is banned from all those places that his new friends say have good shops.

-- 
Carlo Wood 

PS For those who didn't read about this before: that is because once detected,
   your account name is added to a central database, and it doesn't matter
   anymore what viewer you are using.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Doxygen For SnowGlobe 2.0

[Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)]

Nice. But...erm..."Snowgobe Documentation 2.0"? :-)

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Brandon Husbands  wrote:
>  http://dimentox.com/sg2dox/  snowglobe2 doxygen
>  full zip http://www.dimentox.com/html.zip
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 07:55:57PM -0800, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
> Of course, I know that Tigro. But just like any web site can detect a
> user-agent and block it, I'd like to be able to detect the viewer agent,
> (perhaps via llGetAgentInfo) of the avatar getting on my land anyway.
> Such would be useful for various other reasons such a compatibility checks,
> analysis of traffic sources, who you visitors are etc...

Actually, since you clearly WILL use this info to ban people from
your shops,... it's a violation of privacy.

Look at that scam object that was released not long ago, being
sold for a monthly fee of L$ 700... It adds peoples names to
a central database once they are detected (hopefully without
any false-positives) to use a known-bad viewer (ie, neillife
or cryolife, listed by name in the blog threads). Result:
that account is from then on banned in EVERY sim that uses
this object. There is so much wrong with that that I won't
even begin.

Add to that remarks in the said blog like "every possible
banned thief is a benefit", and the conclusion is easy:
If LL makes the agent ID's public, people will soon ban
*ALL* minor TPV's (being all of them, except maybe emerald,
because that has already a pretty large userbase) "just in case".

The result: Total death to all TPV development; nobody will
be able to start with their own new viewer, because nobody
will use a viewer that is instantly banned JUST because it's
used by a minority and you "never know if won't be stealing
my stuff".

Hence, privacy.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 06:08:14PM -0800, Joe Linden wrote:
> I'll let the text from the policy speak for itself on this question: "You must
> not use or provide any functionality that Linden Lab s viewers do not have for
> exporting content from Second Life unless the functionality verifies that the
> content to be exported was created by the Second Life user who is using the
> Third-Party Viewer."

Assuming that "exporting" means "writing to harddisk", it is thus ok to
export textures, sounds, animations, ... and everything else in the cache.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 05:30:39PM -0800, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
> i.e. You either comply AND feature in the "viewer registry". OR ignore it, as
> you said and you’d be in breach of the TOS as such: “5.6 You will indemnify
> Linden lab from claims arising from breach of this Agreement by you, from your
> use of Second Life, from loss of Content due to your actions, or from alleged
> infringement by you”.
> 
> And I don’t think opting out of the "viewer registry" should or ever will be 
> an
> option.

And what might your Linden name be?

Please, all viewer developers, THINK before you chain yourself to
this "list". Adding your viewer will make it so much easier for
LL to do what they do best: namely, do what they want despite
all complains. DO NOT ADD YOUR VIEWER... at least not until
the great majority agrees with the literal wording of the final
published TPV policy, and we're far from that.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Jesse Barnett]

Apologies to group as I know that this is off topic but did not want this to
go unanswered.

I am not the one that discovered the Quicktime link but it was easy to
"prove".

All you have to do is uninstall Quicktime on a Windows machine and you are
invisible even testing with a ripper client that everyone else is being
caught with.

And by now everyone should know that I have taken a very strong stance
against ripping and ripper clients and am not Neil.

Jesse Barnett

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Tigro Spottystripes <
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Without proofs that might have just as well have come from the butt of
> Neil or some other person pissed at Skills for catching their customers
> using malicious clients.
>
> On 1/3/2010 01:34, Miro wrote:
> > I urge you to read the thread. There are details there. To quote on
> > poster...
> > https://blogs.secondlife.com/message/111885#111885
> >
> > "I've learned from sources "close to the developer" just HOW this system
> > works, Via your Media stream access, it accesses your computers AppData
> > folder, searching for installations of identified "copybot" capable
> > viewers, exploiting a function used by programs like flash player,
> > quicktime, and others such as that, that check to see which version is
> > on your system, telling you when you need to update. YOU DONT HAVE TO BE
> > ON THE VIEWER TO BE DETECTED, ONLY HAVE TO HAVE INSTALLED IT AT ONE
> > POINT..."
> >
> > And another
> > https://blogs.secondlife.com/message/112121#112121
> >
> > "IN the meantime, a few tests have been conducted that suggest abuse of
> > port 80 via Quicktime and the Windows filesystem.
> >
> > 1) Disabling media and uninstalling quicktime seems to completely shut
> > this system down, in regards to detecting alts.  Existing avatar keys
> > are still banned, but its "mysterious alt detection" begins to fail.
> >
> > 2) Only some hacked viewers are being detected, and fewer when in Linux.
> >   Further, whereas in Windows if you use a normal viewer but have a
> > hacked one installed, it seems to pick you up (thus eliminating the
> > bouncer analogy, unless you think it's also OK for the bouncer to go to
> > your house and beat up your family), in Linux that function ceases to
> work.
> >
> > 3) Alternative plugins that can handle quicktime functions, when forced
> > to work on a fresh compile of a viewer build, seem to completely block
> > all functions other than being added to the database while using a
> > viewer that announces itself as Cryolife, Streetlife, etc.
> >
> > These all indicate scanning of Windows Application Data, app_data, or
> > even Windows Registry entries without consent.  Additionally, all of
> > this explains why vanilla SL users using Mac OS are getting banned by
> > the system; Mac OS handles the version updates for Quicktime rather than
> > it having that capability enabled on itself, thus making it impossible
> > for this system to function properly against the Mac OS.   So, to
> > prevent that from being noticed, Skills made all Mac OS users get the
> > kill signal because their computers wont allow her/his/its Gemini system
> > to access data on the machine.   This way, Skills can just assert the
> > person was "obviously" using a malicious viewer, defaming them to hide
> > the inefficacy of the system itself."
> >
> > On 02/28/2010 11:02 PM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> > So, all that the scriptkiddies out there need to do to evade the all
> > mighty Gemini CDS malicious client user detection system is to not have
> > Quicktime installed? And LL is letting all their users run around with
> > their machines open to attack by anyone? That doesn't sound plausible at
> > all...
> >
> > On 1/3/2010 00:58, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) wrote:
>  On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
>    wrote:
> > hm, i didn't thought he did collect IP addresses, but even if the
> > system
> > does catch IP addresses (which isn't such a big deal if you keep your
> > machine safe) an IP address wouldn't be of any help identifying
> > malicious clients, unless the malicious clients in question routed
> > stuff
> > thru a known proxy.
> 
>  Sounds to me like we're talking about a lot more than IP address.
>  There have been both remote file system reading and arbitrary code
>  execution vulnerabilities in Quicktime in the past.
> 
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>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkuLRf8ACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmXijgCfR8yqNqXT9st0W3lYIK5gOLp+
> MyMAnjOcJ9xf/CkwIPKnHgH0/K6XLXRa
> =NL2i
> -END PG

Re: [opensource-dev] Is there free images in second life

[Boroondas Gupte]

Rustam Rakhimov schrieb:
> Thanks for response.
>
> But I need image in my Inventory, and I wanna be able to change
> properties of that image.
>
> But images what I have like LIbrary->Photo and Library->textures but
> there is no permission about changing properties
Drag and drop them from the "Library" part of the inventory to the "My
Inventory" part to get full-perm copies.

> So I wanna be able to change properties,
What you can change are Name, Description and next owner permissions, as
well as share with group, the permission for anyone to copy or setting
for sale.
> for example add some URL or something like that
Might it be you're actually looking for shared media
?

> And I visit that land, but there is no images to take for free, or I
> didn't find it
It's still there, I just checked. Look to the East-North-East and watch
for a huge, green and pink "Textures by Torley <3 CLICK FOR FREE" sign.

cheers
Boroondas
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Boroondas Gupte]

Bryon Ruxton schrieb:
> Of course, I know that Tigro. But just like any web site can detect a
> user-agent and block it,
True, but that's not its purpose. If you use it for blocking, you'll
hurt honest clients the most. Can you say VWR-16262
 and SNOW-534
?
> I'd like to be able to detect the viewer agent,
> (perhaps via llGetAgentInfo) of the avatar getting on my land anyway.
> Such would be useful for various other reasons such a compatibility checks,
>   
Compatibility checks should be done by the grid's login and sim servers.
Except of course for streaming media and web content, for which the web
or streaming server can do it, based on HTTP user agent and Accept
request-header
. Except
the user agent might (have to!) be spoofed in the future, even by
Snowglobe and the official Viewer, due to stupid blocking (see issues
linked above).

For new features (e.g. in the style of RLV), I strongly advise to use
protocol versioning and protocol negotiation, so that all compatible
clients can use them, and not only the ones known in advance to be
compatible.
> analysis of traffic sources, who you visitors are etc...
Maybe we shouldn't only require a privacy policy from viewer developers
but also from land owners?

Boroondas
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[opensource-dev] qtwebkit source out of date, API incompatible with 2.0 code base

[Robin Cornelius]

Hey everyone,

With 2.0 the api for the qtwebkit library has changed again and the
current versions available on hg.secondlife.com are significantly out
of date again. This means that its not possible to build completely
from source or have a totally standalone/64 bit versions like many of
us were building in the past. Currently we are disabling webkit and
thus breaking shared media and everything else that relies on it in
order to build 2.0 standalone completely.

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-509

I'm sure this is probably just an oversite with the priority to get
the 2.0 code exported but if someone could take a look at this and
push the appropriate llqtwebkit to hg.secondlife.com it would be very
helpful.

Regards

Robin
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Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party Viewer Policy

[Latif Khalifa]

Joe,

While we're on the subject of clarifying the text of the policy, I
have a question regarding 1. g). Is it really necessary to mandate a
version number be presented on the login screen? Or is that wording
just assuming every third party viewer is based on Linden GPLed client
code?

Latif
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