Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
So our old version of full-screen antialiasing (FSAA) was causing crashes. We have made changes to the supporting infrastructure for stability; these changes meant that some machines that used to do FSAA no longer could. We had a bug under windows that was causing the new mechanism to break. We fixed that for windows -- but we have another issue on macs. There is code in the mesh viewer that supports FSAA on macs; it's a bit big to pull over easily to viewer-development. It was my fault that I didn't realize that our fix to 2.2 didn't address macs properly until quite late in the release process. We chose to ship without the feature on Macs for this release. Macs are a small subset of our user base, and this feature only affects a subset of those users, and we felt that we should not hold up release for this issue. It's also my fault that I didn't call it out for release noting. I'm sorry about that. We do intend to restore full functioning FSAA on all capable platforms soon, hopefully with 2.3. If this affected you, I apologize. Q On Oct 20, 2010, at 3:17 AM, Trilo Byte wrote: Big fail there, Oz. None of the machines I've tested on have working anti-aliasing (on the Mac client), either in the subsequent developer snapshots or the official release you guys let get out the door. TriloByte On Oct 16, 2010, at 8:01 AM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: On 2010-10-15 18:00, Trilo Byte wrote: But on the flipside, the Project MESH viewer has working shadows for nVidia GPU's on Mac (never happened before on any known config), and anti-aliasing's fixed. If we could get that bit out of the mesh viewer and into the 2.2 pipeline, we'd really be in great shape IMO. The AA fix is in the 2.2 pipeline (I did that merge) ... not sure about the other (since I don't know which change that was). ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
On 2010-10-15 18:00, Trilo Byte wrote: But on the flipside, the Project MESH viewer has working shadows for nVidia GPU's on Mac (never happened before on any known config), and anti-aliasing's fixed. If we could get that bit out of the mesh viewer and into the 2.2 pipeline, we'd really be in great shape IMO. The AA fix is in the 2.2 pipeline (I did that merge) ... not sure about the other (since I don't know which change that was). ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
Are you planning to enable shine on prims with lighting/shadows on or is full lighting effects disable shininess something we need to accept as permanent and texture around? (Note that lighting in Kirstens also disables shine) From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) o...@lindenlab.com To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 11:01:38 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer On 2010-10-15 18:00, Trilo Byte wrote: But on the flipside, the Project MESH viewer has working shadows for nVidia GPU's on Mac (never happened before on any known config), and anti-aliasing's fixed. If we could get that bit out of the mesh viewer and into the 2.2 pipeline, we'd really be in great shape IMO. The AA fix is in the 2.2 pipeline (I did that merge) ... not sure about the other (since I don't know which change that was). ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
Shiny does work with the deferred renderer (or Lighting and Shadows as it's now called in the Mesh viewer). It's simply handled differently; it reflects light in the form of what's known as specular reflectance, instead of reflecting the sky environment (at one point it reflected both around 2008 and 2009). Different shiny settings effects the overall brightness and distribution of the specular exponent. On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Ann Otoole missannoto...@yahoo.comwrote: Are you planning to enable shine on prims with lighting/shadows on or is full lighting effects disable shininess something we need to accept as permanent and texture around? (Note that lighting in Kirstens also disables shine) -- *From:* Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) o...@lindenlab.com *To:* opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com *Sent:* Sat, October 16, 2010 11:01:38 AM *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer On 2010-10-15 18:00, Trilo Byte wrote: But on the flipside, the Project MESH viewer has working shadows for nVidia GPU's on Mac (never happened before on any known config), and anti-aliasing's fixed. If we could get that bit out of the mesh viewer and into the 2.2 pipeline, we'd really be in great shape IMO. The AA fix is in the 2.2 pipeline (I did that merge) ... not sure about the other (since I don't know which change that was). ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
There is no shine at all when lighting/shadows is enabled. Sorry. None whatsoever. Full shine black is just flat black. Full shine white is just flat white. Full shine textures are just the textures. It is completely broken. And this, in turn, breaks content that was sold with the expectation it was shiny. On the bright side it might make people rely less on shine to hide things that cannot be textured properly (sculpts generated from a wad of prims) or to cover a lack of decent texturing. I'm already discontinuing use of shine as much as possible because of this content breaker. And yes we will need the other aspects of texturing for mesh as soon as possible if possible. Wet looking skin with bulging veins on Cthu'lhu would indeed be awesome. But shine was broken once with windlight. Now it has been obliterated with deferred rendering. I don't expect to live long enough to see real time true reflectivity in Second Life. Like latex that actually reflects. Would be nice but there are miles and miles to go to get that gpu capability for real time translated to opengl and then farther to go to show up in Second life. Or third life or whatever this concept is called at that point 50 years from now if there is still an internet (doubtful) and civilians are allowed to be in possession of computers beyond what they are chipped with. From: Geenz Spad ge...@geenzo.com To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 12:41:48 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer Shiny does work with the deferred renderer (or Lighting and Shadows as it's now called in the Mesh viewer). It's simply handled differently; it reflects light in the form of what's known as specular reflectance, instead of reflecting the sky environment (at one point it reflected both around 2008 and 2009). Different shiny settings effects the overall brightness and distribution of the specular exponent. On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Ann Otoole missannoto...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you planning to enable shine on prims with lighting/shadows on or is full lighting effects disable shininess something we need to accept as permanent and texture around? (Note that lighting in Kirstens also disables shine) From: Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) o...@lindenlab.com To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 11:01:38 AM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer On 2010-10-15 18:00, Trilo Byte wrote: But on the flipside, the Project MESH viewer has working shadows for nVidia GPU's on Mac (never happened before on any known config), and anti-aliasing's fixed. If we could get that bit out of the mesh viewer and into the 2.2 pipeline, we'd really be in great shape IMO. The AA fix is in the 2.2 pipeline (I did that merge) ... not sure about the other (since I don't know which change that was). ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Ann Otoole missannoto...@yahoo.com wrote: There is no shine at all when lighting/shadows is enabled. Sorry. None whatsoever. Full shine black is just flat black. Full shine white is just flat white. Full shine textures are just the textures. It is completely broken. And this, in turn, breaks content that was sold with the expectation it was shiny. Shiny enables specular highlights, not reflections. Physically the two are the same thing, but in raster based graphics they are separate. That weird metallic colored blob we had before was just a quick and dirt hack, with lighting shadows enabled the viewer will do true specular highlights which depend on the angle of the light and the camera in order to be visible. I don't expect to live long enough to see real time true reflectivity in Second Life. Like latex that actually reflects. Would be nice but there are miles and miles to go to get that gpu capability for real time translated to opengl and then farther to go to show up in Second life. Or third life or whatever this concept is called at that point 50 years from now if there is still an internet (doubtful) and civilians are allowed to be in possession of computers beyond what they are chipped with. OpenGL has been able to do reflections for a long time now, it's just a very demanding process since you have to render the scene from the point of view of each reflective object in addition to the camera's view point. Older games would cheat and just render one cube map for the whole scene and use it for all reflections, but that may not be acceptable in sl. Once again, the dynamic, user made content in sl is what holds us back. There is no way to limit the number of reflective objects in view and using more then a hand full would bring all but the current top of the line cards to their knees. What we need is fine grain control over how objects are rendered instead of just everything in the view plain been drawn in full (LOD'd) detail. The shadow maps GI code does this with a distance based cut off. Having a distance / size cut off for reflections would help a lot with any over use of them. Adding in full impostors for all objects would be even better. Over all I'd say the viewer needs to start doing some serious resource management if we ever want to have a draw distance measured in kilometers. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
Case in point... http://www.flickr.com/photos/50275...@n04/5079086973/ The floors have Shiny set to medium. leliel wrote: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Ann Otoolemissannoto...@yahoo.com wrote: There is no shine at all when lighting/shadows is enabled. Sorry. None whatsoever. Full shine black is just flat black. Full shine white is just flat white. Full shine textures are just the textures. It is completely broken. And this, in turn, breaks content that was sold with the expectation it was shiny. Shiny enables specular highlights, not reflections. Physically the two are the same thing, but in raster based graphics they are separate. That weird metallic colored blob we had before was just a quick and dirt hack, with lighting shadows enabled the viewer will do true specular highlights which depend on the angle of the light and the camera in order to be visible. I don't expect to live long enough to see real time true reflectivity in Second Life. Like latex that actually reflects. Would be nice but there are miles and miles to go to get that gpu capability for real time translated to opengl and then farther to go to show up in Second life. Or third life or whatever this concept is called at that point 50 years from now if there is still an internet (doubtful) and civilians are allowed to be in possession of computers beyond what they are chipped with. OpenGL has been able to do reflections for a long time now, it's just a very demanding process since you have to render the scene from the point of view of each reflective object in addition to the camera's view point. Older games would cheat and just render one cube map for the whole scene and use it for all reflections, but that may not be acceptable in sl. Once again, the dynamic, user made content in sl is what holds us back. There is no way to limit the number of reflective objects in view and using more then a hand full would bring all but the current top of the line cards to their knees. What we need is fine grain control over how objects are rendered instead of just everything in the view plain been drawn in full (LOD'd) detail. The shadow maps GI code does this with a distance based cut off. Having a distance / size cut off for reflections would help a lot with any over use of them. Adding in full impostors for all objects would be even better. Over all I'd say the viewer needs to start doing some serious resource management if we ever want to have a draw distance measured in kilometers. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
“Or third life orwhatever this concept is called at that point 50 years from now if there isstill an internet (doubtful) and civilians are allowed to be in possessionof computers beyond what they are chipped with.” We have to all stand together for our rights of free speech, creativity and don’t let them implant you chips then we all should be fine in 50 years from now. Just think about it there a general awakening that is happening, people start to realize that the gov has too much power, we just need to take it back. From: Jonathan Goodman Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 10:49 PM To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer Case in point... http://www.flickr.com/photos/50275...@n04/5079086973/ The floors have Shiny set to medium. leliel wrote: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Ann Otoole mailto:missannoto...@yahoo.com wrote: There is no shine at all when lighting/shadows is enabled. Sorry. None whatsoever. Full shine black is just flat black. Full shine white is just flat white. Full shine textures are just the textures. It is completely broken. And this, in turn, breaks content that was sold with the expectation it was shiny. Shiny enables specular highlights, not reflections. Physically the two are the same thing, but in raster based graphics they are separate. That weird metallic colored blob we had before was just a quick and dirt hack, with lighting shadows enabled the viewer will do true specular highlights which depend on the angle of the light and the camera in order to be visible. I don't expect to live long enough to see real time true reflectivity in Second Life. Like latex that actually reflects. Would be nice but there are miles and miles to go to get that gpu capability for real time translated to opengl and then farther to go to show up in Second life. Or third life or whatever this concept is called at that point 50 years from now if there is still an internet (doubtful) and civilians are allowed to be in possession of computers beyond what they are chipped with. OpenGL has been able to do reflections for a long time now, it's just a very demanding process since you have to render the scene from the point of view of each reflective object in addition to the camera's view point. Older games would cheat and just render one cube map for the whole scene and use it for all reflections, but that may not be acceptable in sl. Once again, the dynamic, user made content in sl is what holds us back. There is no way to limit the number of reflective objects in view and using more then a hand full would bring all but the current top of the line cards to their knees. What we need is fine grain control over how objects are rendered instead of just everything in the view plain been drawn in full (LOD'd) detail. The shadow maps GI code does this with a distance based cut off. Having a distance / size cut off for reflections would help a lot with any over use of them. Adding in full impostors for all objects would be even better. Over all I'd say the viewer needs to start doing some serious resource management if we ever want to have a draw distance measured in kilometers. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
On 2010-10-15 13:07, Ponzu wrote: I tried this viewer last night. As I am sure you Lindens know, it is based on a version of viewer-development that is many days old. (Some complaint, huh?) Could perhaps someone help the Mesh team pull the most relevant changesets from viewer-dev so their next release lacks the more annoying problems? (such as my personal favorite, SH-173 8-) How frequently a team pulls from viewer-development is up to the team. It should not surprise you to hear that in the final days leading up to releasing a viewer, this task might take a back seat to putting the finishing touches on the feature one is building the Project Viewer to test. It happens that the last few days have also been a busy time in the viewer-development repository, with fixes coming back from the viewer-beta and yesterday the Display Names project merging in. I think that if I were deciding on when to sync with the latest from viewer-development, I too might have decided to wait a bit. Have no fear... any future mesh project viewers will have pulled more from viewer-development, and it will all come together before being in a Beta or released Viewer. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
We just pulled from viewer-development yesterday actually, but we had already released the initial beta viewer. We try to stay reasonably up to date, but we don't merge the latest changes every day. Don't worry we will stay synced! -Nyx On 10/15/2010 01:29 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) wrote: On 2010-10-15 13:07, Ponzu wrote: I tried this viewer last night. As I am sure you Lindens know, it is based on a version of viewer-development that is many days old. (Some complaint, huh?) Could perhaps someone help the Mesh team pull the most relevant changesets from viewer-dev so their next release lacks the more annoying problems? (such as my personal favorite, SH-173 8-) How frequently a team pulls from viewer-development is up to the team. It should not surprise you to hear that in the final days leading up to releasing a viewer, this task might take a back seat to putting the finishing touches on the feature one is building the Project Viewer to test. It happens that the last few days have also been a busy time in the viewer-development repository, with fixes coming back from the viewer-beta and yesterday the Display Names project merging in. I think that if I were deciding on when to sync with the latest from viewer-development, I too might have decided to wait a bit. Have no fear... any future mesh project viewers will have pulled more from viewer-development, and it will all come together before being in a Beta or released Viewer. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
Yikes. It sounds like you think I was complaining. not at all. Just encouraging a little. ponzu On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Oz Linden (Scott Lawrence) o...@lindenlab.com wrote: On 2010-10-15 13:07, Ponzu wrote: I tried this viewer last night. As I am sure you Lindens know, it is based on a version of viewer-development that is many days old. (Some complaint, huh?) Could perhaps someone help the Mesh team pull the most relevant changesets from viewer-dev so their next release lacks the more annoying problems? (such as my personal favorite, SH-173 8-) How frequently a team pulls from viewer-development is up to the team. It should not surprise you to hear that in the final days leading up to releasing a viewer, this task might take a back seat to putting the finishing touches on the feature one is building the Project Viewer to test. It happens that the last few days have also been a busy time in the viewer-development repository, with fixes coming back from the viewer-beta and yesterday the Display Names project merging in. I think that if I were deciding on when to sync with the latest from viewer-development, I too might have decided to wait a bit. Have no fear... any future mesh project viewers will have pulled more from viewer-development, and it will all come together before being in a Beta or released Viewer. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
But on the flipside, the Project MESH viewer has working shadows for nVidia GPU's on Mac (never happened before on any known config), and anti-aliasing's fixed. If we could get that bit out of the mesh viewer and into the 2.2 pipeline, we'd really be in great shape IMO. Trilo On Oct 15, 2010, at 10:07 AM, Ponzu wrote: I tried this viewer last night. As I am sure you Lindens know, it is based on a version of viewer-development that is many days old. (Some complaint, huh?) Could perhaps someone help the Mesh team pull the most relevant changesets from viewer-dev so their next release lacks the more annoying problems? (such as my personal favorite, SH-173 8-) best regards, lee ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
Re: [opensource-dev] Project-MESH viewer
Nyx Linden wrote: We just pulled from viewer-development yesterday actually, but we had already released the initial beta viewer. We try to stay reasonably up to date, but we don't merge the latest changes every day. Don't worry we will stay synced! -Nyx Its anyway awsome - ty and all working on it :) Armin ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
