[openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
Team, We currently delete logs for an app when we delete the app[1]. https://bugs.launchpad.net/solum/+bug/1463986 Perhaps there should be an optional setting at the tenant level that determines whether your logs are deleted or not by default (set to off initially), and an optional parameter to our DELETE calls that allows for the opposite action from the default to be specified if the user wants to override it at the time of the deletion. Thoughts? Thanks, Adrian __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
Yes, the log deletion should be optional. The question is what should be the default behavior. Should the default be to delete the logs and provide a flag to keep them, or keep the logs by default and provide a override flag to delete them? Delete-by-default is consistent with the view that when an app is deleted, all its artifacts are deleted (the app's meta data, the deployment units (DUs), and the logs). This behavior is also useful in our current state when the app resource and the CLI are in flux. For now, without a way to specify a flag, either to delete the logs or to keep them, delete-by-default behavior helps us clean all the log files from the application's cloud files container when an app is deleted. This is very useful for our CI jobs. Without this, we end up with lots of log files in the application's container, and have to resort to separate scripts to delete them up after an app is deleted. Once the app resource and CLI stabilize it should be straightforward to change the default behavior if required. - Devdatta From: Adrian Otto Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 6:54 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Team, We currently delete logs for an app when we delete the app[1]. https://bugs.launchpad.net/solum/+bug/1463986 Perhaps there should be an optional setting at the tenant level that determines whether your logs are deleted or not by default (set to off initially), and an optional parameter to our DELETE calls that allows for the opposite action from the default to be specified if the user wants to override it at the time of the deletion. Thoughts? Thanks, Adrian __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
Regardless of what the API defaults to, could we have the CLI prompt/warn so that the user easily knows that both options exist? Is there a precedent within OpenStack for a similar situation? E.g. > solum app delete MyApp Do you want to also delete your logs? (default is Yes): [YES/no] NOTE, if you choose No, application logs will remain on your account. Depending on your service provider, you may incur on-going storage charges. Thanks, -Keith From: Devdatta Kulkarni mailto:devdatta.kulka...@rackspace.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:56 AM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Yes, the log deletion should be optional. The question is what should be the default behavior. Should the default be to delete the logs and provide a flag to keep them, or keep the logs by default and provide a override flag to delete them? Delete-by-default is consistent with the view that when an app is deleted, all its artifacts are deleted (the app's meta data, the deployment units (DUs), and the logs). This behavior is also useful in our current state when the app resource and the CLI are in flux. For now, without a way to specify a flag, either to delete the logs or to keep them, delete-by-default behavior helps us clean all the log files from the application's cloud files container when an app is deleted. This is very useful for our CI jobs. Without this, we end up with lots of log files in the application's container, and have to resort to separate scripts to delete them up after an app is deleted. Once the app resource and CLI stabilize it should be straightforward to change the default behavior if required. - Devdatta From: Adrian Otto mailto:adrian.o...@rackspace.com>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 6:54 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Team, We currently delete logs for an app when we delete the app[1]. https://bugs.launchpad.net/solum/+bug/1463986 Perhaps there should be an optional setting at the tenant level that determines whether your logs are deleted or not by default (set to off initially), and an optional parameter to our DELETE calls that allows for the opposite action from the default to be specified if the user wants to override it at the time of the deletion. Thoughts? Thanks, Adrian __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
I agree, users should have a mechanism to keep logs around. I implemented the logs deletion feature after we got a bunch of requests from users to delete logs once they delete an app, so they don't get charged for storage once the app is deleted. My implementation deletes the logs by default and I think that is the right behavior. Based on user requests, that is exactly what they were asking for. I'm planning to add a --keep-logs flag in a follow up patch. The command will look as follows Solum delete app MyApp --keep-logs -Murali On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:19 PM, Keith Bray mailto:keith.b...@rackspace.com>> wrote: Regardless of what the API defaults to, could we have the CLI prompt/warn so that the user easily knows that both options exist? Is there a precedent within OpenStack for a similar situation? E.g. > solum app delete MyApp Do you want to also delete your logs? (default is Yes): [YES/no] NOTE, if you choose No, application logs will remain on your account. Depending on your service provider, you may incur on-going storage charges. Thanks, -Keith From: Devdatta Kulkarni mailto:devdatta.kulka...@rackspace.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:56 AM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Yes, the log deletion should be optional. The question is what should be the default behavior. Should the default be to delete the logs and provide a flag to keep them, or keep the logs by default and provide a override flag to delete them? Delete-by-default is consistent with the view that when an app is deleted, all its artifacts are deleted (the app's meta data, the deployment units (DUs), and the logs). This behavior is also useful in our current state when the app resource and the CLI are in flux. For now, without a way to specify a flag, either to delete the logs or to keep them, delete-by-default behavior helps us clean all the log files from the application's cloud files container when an app is deleted. This is very useful for our CI jobs. Without this, we end up with lots of log files in the application's container, and have to resort to separate scripts to delete them up after an app is deleted. Once the app resource and CLI stabilize it should be straightforward to change the default behavior if required. - Devdatta From: Adrian Otto mailto:adrian.o...@rackspace.com>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 6:54 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Team, We currently delete logs for an app when we delete the app[1]. https://bugs.launchpad.net/solum/+bug/1463986 Perhaps there should be an optional setting at the tenant level that determines whether your logs are deleted or not by default (set to off initially), and an optional parameter to our DELETE calls that allows for the opposite action from the default to be specified if the user wants to override it at the time of the deletion. Thoughts? Thanks, Adrian __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org<mailto:openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org>?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
+1 Murali. AFIAK, there is no precedent for what Keith proposes, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing. On Jun 16, 2015, at 12:21 AM, Murali Allada wrote: > I agree, users should have a mechanism to keep logs around. > > I implemented the logs deletion feature after we got a bunch of requests from > users to delete logs once they delete an app, so they don't get charged for > storage once the app is deleted. > > My implementation deletes the logs by default and I think that is the right > behavior. Based on user requests, that is exactly what they were asking for. > I'm planning to add a --keep-logs flag in a follow up patch. The command will > look as follows > > Solum delete app MyApp --keep-logs > > -Murali > > > > > > On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:19 PM, Keith Bray wrote: > >> Regardless of what the API defaults to, could we have the CLI prompt/warn so >> that the user easily knows that both options exist? Is there a precedent >> within OpenStack for a similar situation? >> >> E.g. >> > solum app delete MyApp >> Do you want to also delete your logs? (default is Yes): [YES/no] >> NOTE, if you choose No, application logs will remain on your >> account. Depending on your service provider, you may incur on-going storage >> charges. >> >> Thanks, >> -Keith >> >> From: Devdatta Kulkarni >> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" >> >> Date: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:56 AM >> To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" >> >> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete >> an app? >> >> Yes, the log deletion should be optional. >> >> >> The question is what should be the default behavior. Should the default be >> to delete the logs and provide a flag to keep them, or keep the logs by >> default and provide a override flag to delete them? >> >> Delete-by-default is consistent with the view that when an app is deleted, >> all its artifacts are deleted (the app's meta data, the deployment units >> (DUs), and the logs). This behavior is also useful in our current state when >> the app resource and the CLI are in flux. For now, without a way to specify >> a flag, either to delete the logs or to keep them, delete-by-default >> behavior helps us clean all the log files from the application's cloud files >> container when an app is deleted. >> >> This is very useful for our CI jobs. Without this, we end up with lots of >> log files in the application's container, >> >> and have to resort to separate scripts to delete them up after an app is >> deleted. >> >> >> Once the app resource and CLI stabilize it should be straightforward to >> change the default behavior if required. >> >> - Devdatta >> >> From: Adrian Otto >> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 6:54 PM >> To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Subject: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an >> app? >> >> Team, >> >> We currently delete logs for an app when we delete the app[1]. >> >> https://bugs.launchpad.net/solum/+bug/1463986 >> >> Perhaps there should be an optional setting at the tenant level that >> determines whether your logs are deleted or not by default (set to off >> initially), and an optional parameter to our DELETE calls that allows for >> the opposite action from the default to be specified if the user wants to >> override it at the time of the deletion. Thoughts? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Adrian >> __ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
On Jun 15, 2015, at 9:10 PM, Keith Bray mailto:keith.b...@rackspace.com>> wrote: Regardless of what the API defaults to, could we have the CLI prompt/warn so that the user easily knows that both options exist? Is there a precedent within OpenStack for a similar situation? E.g. > solum app delete MyApp Do you want to also delete your logs? (default is Yes): [YES/no] NOTE, if you choose No, application logs will remain on your account. Depending on your service provider, you may incur on-going storage charges. Interactive choices like that one can make it more confusing for developers who want to script with the CLI. My preference would be to label the app delete help text to clearly indicate that it deletes logs. Today the help text is: solum app delete Delete an application and all related artifacts. Initial alternative: solum app delete Delete an application and all related artifacts, including logs. We could add the --keep-logs option Murali mentioned and say this instead: solum app delete [--keep-logs] Delete an application and all related artifacts. Logs are kept if --keep-logs is used. This should conform to the principle of least surprise, allow for keeping logs around for those who want them, and not interfere with those wanting to script with the CLI. Cheers, Adrian Thanks, -Keith From: Devdatta Kulkarni mailto:devdatta.kulka...@rackspace.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:56 AM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Yes, the log deletion should be optional. The question is what should be the default behavior. Should the default be to delete the logs and provide a flag to keep them, or keep the logs by default and provide a override flag to delete them? Delete-by-default is consistent with the view that when an app is deleted, all its artifacts are deleted (the app's meta data, the deployment units (DUs), and the logs). This behavior is also useful in our current state when the app resource and the CLI are in flux. For now, without a way to specify a flag, either to delete the logs or to keep them, delete-by-default behavior helps us clean all the log files from the application's cloud files container when an app is deleted. This is very useful for our CI jobs. Without this, we end up with lots of log files in the application's container, and have to resort to separate scripts to delete them up after an app is deleted. Once the app resource and CLI stabilize it should be straightforward to change the default behavior if required. - Devdatta From: Adrian Otto mailto:adrian.o...@rackspace.com>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 6:54 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Team, We currently delete logs for an app when we delete the app[1]. https://bugs.launchpad.net/solum/+bug/1463986 Perhaps there should be an optional setting at the tenant level that determines whether your logs are deleted or not by default (set to off initially), and an optional parameter to our DELETE calls that allows for the opposite action from the default to be specified if the user wants to override it at the time of the deletion. Thoughts? Thanks, Adrian __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org<mailto:openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org>?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
Isn't that what the SDK is for? To chip in with a Product Management type hat on, I'd think the CLI should be primarily focused on user experience interaction, and the SDK should be primarily targeted for developer automation needs around programmatically interacting with the service. So, I would argue that the target market for the CLI should not be the developer who wants to script. -Keith From: Adrian Otto mailto:adrian.o...@rackspace.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 12:24 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Interactive choices like that one can make it more confusing for developers who want to script with the CLI. My preference would be to label the app delete help text to clearly indicate that it deletes logs __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
While I agree with what you're saying, the way the OpenStack clients are traditionally written/designed, the CLI *is* the SDK for those users who want to do scripting in a shell rather than in Python. If we go with your suggestion, we'd probably also want to have the ability to suppress those prompts for folks that want to shell script. On Jun 16, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Keith Bray wrote: > Isn't that what the SDK is for? To chip in with a Product Management type > hat on, I'd think the CLI should be primarily focused on user experience > interaction, and the SDK should be primarily targeted for developer > automation needs around programmatically interacting with the service. So, > I would argue that the target market for the CLI should not be the developer > who wants to script. > > -Keith > > From: Adrian Otto > Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" > > Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 12:24 PM > To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" > > Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an > app? > >> Interactive choices like that one can make it more confusing for developers >> who want to script with the CLI. My preference would be to label the app >> delete help text to clearly indicate that it deletes logs > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
That makes sense Randall.. .a sort of "Novice mode" vs. "Expert mode." I definitely want to see OpenStack to get easier to use, and lower the barrier to entry. If projects only cater to developers, progress will be slower than what it could be. -Keith On 6/16/15 4:52 PM, "Randall Burt" wrote: >While I agree with what you're saying, the way the OpenStack clients are >traditionally written/designed, the CLI *is* the SDK for those users who >want to do scripting in a shell rather than in Python. If we go with your >suggestion, we'd probably also want to have the ability to suppress those >prompts for folks that want to shell script. > >On Jun 16, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Keith Bray > wrote: > >> Isn't that what the SDK is for? To chip in with a Product Management >>type hat on, I'd think the CLI should be primarily focused on user >>experience interaction, and the SDK should be primarily targeted for >>developer automation needs around programmatically interacting with the >>service. So, I would argue that the target market for the CLI should >>not be the developer who wants to script. >> >> -Keith >> >> From: Adrian Otto >> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage >>questions)" >> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 12:24 PM >> To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" >> >> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we >>delete an app? >> >>> Interactive choices like that one can make it more confusing for >>>developers who want to script with the CLI. My preference would be to >>>label the app delete help text to clearly indicate that it deletes logs >> >>_ >>_ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: >>openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > >__ >OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
-1. There are developers and there are users/admins. The former tend to write in python. the latter, shell. Thanks, Kevin From: Keith Bray [keith.b...@rackspace.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 2:42 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Isn't that what the SDK is for? To chip in with a Product Management type hat on, I'd think the CLI should be primarily focused on user experience interaction, and the SDK should be primarily targeted for developer automation needs around programmatically interacting with the service. So, I would argue that the target market for the CLI should not be the developer who wants to script. -Keith From: Adrian Otto mailto:adrian.o...@rackspace.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 12:24 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Interactive choices like that one can make it more confusing for developers who want to script with the CLI. My preference would be to label the app delete help text to clearly indicate that it deletes logs __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
Kevin, I agree with your break out, except I think you are missing a 3rd category. 100's of public cloud support specialists, developers, and product management folks use the CLI without scripts every day in supporting the OpenStack services and customers. Using and interacting with the CLI is how folks learn the OpenStack services. The CLIs can be painful for those users when they actually want to learn the service, not shell script around it. -Keith From: , Kevin M mailto:kevin@pnnl.gov>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 6:28 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? -1. There are developers and there are users/admins. The former tend to write in python. the latter, shell. Thanks, Kevin From: Keith Bray [keith.b...@rackspace.com<mailto:keith.b...@rackspace.com>] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 2:42 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Isn't that what the SDK is for? To chip in with a Product Management type hat on, I'd think the CLI should be primarily focused on user experience interaction, and the SDK should be primarily targeted for developer automation needs around programmatically interacting with the service. So, I would argue that the target market for the CLI should not be the developer who wants to script. -Keith From: Adrian Otto mailto:adrian.o...@rackspace.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 12:24 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Interactive choices like that one can make it more confusing for developers who want to script with the CLI. My preference would be to label the app delete help text to clearly indicate that it deletes logs __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
It sounded like the push was, cli's for interactive, if you want to script, use python. My assertion was, developers script in python, users/admins script in shell usually. Not arguing against making the cli user experience more pleasant for interactive users, but realize shell is the way most user/admins will script since that is what they are accustomed to. Now, unfortunately there's probably a lot of scripts out there today, and if you make things more interactive, you risk breaking them horribly if you start requiring them to be default interactive :/ Thats not an easily solved problem. Best way I can think of is fix it in the new unified openstack client, and give the interactive binary a new name to run interactive mode. Shell scripts can continue to use the existing stuff without fear of breakage. Thanks, Kevin From: Keith Bray [keith.b...@rackspace.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 4:47 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Kevin, I agree with your break out, except I think you are missing a 3rd category. 100's of public cloud support specialists, developers, and product management folks use the CLI without scripts every day in supporting the OpenStack services and customers. Using and interacting with the CLI is how folks learn the OpenStack services. The CLIs can be painful for those users when they actually want to learn the service, not shell script around it. -Keith From: , Kevin M mailto:kevin@pnnl.gov>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 6:28 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? -1. There are developers and there are users/admins. The former tend to write in python. the latter, shell. Thanks, Kevin From: Keith Bray [keith.b...@rackspace.com<mailto:keith.b...@rackspace.com>] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 2:42 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Isn't that what the SDK is for? To chip in with a Product Management type hat on, I'd think the CLI should be primarily focused on user experience interaction, and the SDK should be primarily targeted for developer automation needs around programmatically interacting with the service. So, I would argue that the target market for the CLI should not be the developer who wants to script. -Keith From: Adrian Otto mailto:adrian.o...@rackspace.com>> Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 12:24 PM To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app? Interactive choices like that one can make it more confusing for developers who want to script with the CLI. My preference would be to label the app delete help text to clearly indicate that it deletes logs __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an app?
CLIs should get versioned like any other contract and allow for change (not be
restricted in stone to what's already out there{). With Solum, we have less to
worry about as we are at the early phases of adoption and growth. To someone's
earlier point, you can have —non-interactive flags which allows shell
scripting, or —interactive which provides a more positive human interaction
experience (defaulting either way, but my $0.2 is you default to human
interaction, is even the shell scripters start there to learn/test the
capabilities manually before scripting. I think projects can solve for both,
it just takes a willingness to do so. To the extent that can be tackled in the
new unified OpenStack client, that would be fantastic!
-Keith
From: , Kevin M mailto:kevin@pnnl.gov>>
Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)"
mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>>
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 7:05 PM
To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)"
mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>>
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an
app?
It sounded like the push was, cli's for interactive, if you want to script, use
python. My assertion was, developers script in python, users/admins script in
shell usually. Not arguing against making the cli user experience more pleasant
for interactive users, but realize shell is the way most user/admins will
script since that is what they are accustomed to.
Now, unfortunately there's probably a lot of scripts out there today, and if
you make things more interactive, you risk breaking them horribly if you start
requiring them to be default interactive :/ Thats not an easily solved
problem. Best way I can think of is fix it in the new unified openstack client,
and give the interactive binary a new name to run interactive mode. Shell
scripts can continue to use the existing stuff without fear of breakage.
Thanks,
Kevin
From: Keith Bray [keith.b...@rackspace.com<mailto:keith.b...@rackspace.com>]
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 4:47 PM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an
app?
Kevin, I agree with your break out, except I think you are missing a 3rd
category. 100's of public cloud support specialists, developers, and product
management folks use the CLI without scripts every day in supporting the
OpenStack services and customers. Using and interacting with the CLI is how
folks learn the OpenStack services. The CLIs can be painful for those users
when they actually want to learn the service, not shell script around it.
-Keith
From: , Kevin M mailto:kevin@pnnl.gov>>
Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)"
mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>>
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 6:28 PM
To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)"
mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>>
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an
app?
-1. There are developers and there are users/admins. The former tend to write
in python. the latter, shell.
Thanks,
Kevin
From: Keith Bray [keith.b...@rackspace.com<mailto:keith.b...@rackspace.com>]
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 2:42 PM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an
app?
Isn't that what the SDK is for? To chip in with a Product Management type hat
on, I'd think the CLI should be primarily focused on user experience
interaction, and the SDK should be primarily targeted for developer automation
needs around programmatically interacting with the service. So, I would argue
that the target market for the CLI should not be the developer who wants to
script.
-Keith
From: Adrian Otto mailto:adrian.o...@rackspace.com>>
Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)"
mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>>
Date: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 12:24 PM
To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)"
mailto:openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>>
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [Solum] Should logs be deleted when we delete an
app?
Interactive choices like that one can make it more confusing for developers who
want to script with the CLI. My preference would be to label the app delete
help text to clearly indicate that it deletes logs
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