Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On 24 Oct 2017, at 4:47, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Colleen Murphy wrote: >> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke >> mailto:diana.joan.cla...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen! >> >> You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the >> tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but >> retaining them". >> >> I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left >> OpenStack for their experiences on this front. >> >> Something along the lines of: >> >> "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't >> contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?". >> >> Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be >> predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there >> nonetheless. >> >> I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be >> useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on. > > Kind of parallel to the polling idea: > > John Dickinson has some interesting scripts that he runs to detect > deviation from a past contribution pattern (like someone who used to > contribute a few patches per cycle but did not contribute anything over > the past cycle, or someone who used to contribute a handful of patches > per month who did not send a single patch over the past month). Once > oddities in the contribution pattern are detected, he would contact the > person to ask if anything happened or changed that made them stop > contributing. > > John would probably describe it better than I did. I like that it's not > just quantitative but more around deviation from an established > contribution pattern, which lets him spot issues earlier. That's a pretty good summary. > > Note that this sort of analysis works well when combined with personal > outreach, which works better at project team level... If done at > OpenStack level you would likely have more difficulty making it feel > personal (if I end up reaching out to a Tacker dev that stopped > contributing, it won't be as effective as if the Tacker PTL did the > outreach). One thing we could do would be to productize those tools and > make them available to a wider number of people. TBH I haven't used these tools that much for a while. Between an increased an increased personal reach-out ("Hey, what's going on?") and obvious stuff like companies pulling away from OpenStack contributions, there haven't been any surprises. Most of the active contributors have been pretty up-front about their ability (or lack thereof) to contribute. > > -- > Thierry Carrez (ttx) > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Colleen Murphy wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke > > mailto:diana.joan.cla...@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen! > > > > You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the > > tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but > > retaining them". > > > > I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have > left > > OpenStack for their experiences on this front. > > > > Something along the lines of: > > > > "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't > > contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?". > > > > Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be > > predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there > > nonetheless. > > > > I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be > > useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on. > > Kind of parallel to the polling idea: > > John Dickinson has some interesting scripts that he runs to detect > deviation from a past contribution pattern (like someone who used to > contribute a few patches per cycle but did not contribute anything over > the past cycle, or someone who used to contribute a handful of patches > per month who did not send a single patch over the past month). Once > oddities in the contribution pattern are detected, he would contact the > person to ask if anything happened or changed that made them stop > contributing. > > John would probably describe it better than I did. I like that it's not > just quantitative but more around deviation from an established > contribution pattern, which lets him spot issues earlier. > It's great to hear that something like this already exists. > > Note that this sort of analysis works well when combined with personal > outreach, which works better at project team level... If done at > OpenStack level you would likely have more difficulty making it feel > personal (if I end up reaching out to a Tacker dev that stopped > contributing, it won't be as effective as if the Tacker PTL did the > outreach). That's a really good point, but I would counter that in certain circumstances this might not result in the most honest answers, if for example the reason for leaving was due to personal problems with the PTL or someone in the team leadership. Even with a personalized outreach approach, I think it's important that the data be recorded centrally so it can be analyzed across the various teams for trends. > One thing we could do would be to productize those tools and > make them available to a wider number of people. > ++ > > -- > Thierry Carrez (ttx) > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Excerpts from Thierry Carrez's message of 2017-10-24 13:47:32 +0200: > Colleen Murphy wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke > > mailto:diana.joan.cla...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen! > > > > You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the > > tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but > > retaining them". > > > > I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left > > OpenStack for their experiences on this front. > > > > Something along the lines of: > > > > "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't > > contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?". > > > > Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be > > predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there > > nonetheless. > > > > I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be > > useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on. > > Kind of parallel to the polling idea: > > John Dickinson has some interesting scripts that he runs to detect > deviation from a past contribution pattern (like someone who used to > contribute a few patches per cycle but did not contribute anything over > the past cycle, or someone who used to contribute a handful of patches > per month who did not send a single patch over the past month). Once > oddities in the contribution pattern are detected, he would contact the > person to ask if anything happened or changed that made them stop > contributing. > > John would probably describe it better than I did. I like that it's not > just quantitative but more around deviation from an established > contribution pattern, which lets him spot issues earlier. > > Note that this sort of analysis works well when combined with personal > outreach, which works better at project team level... If done at > OpenStack level you would likely have more difficulty making it feel > personal (if I end up reaching out to a Tacker dev that stopped > contributing, it won't be as effective as if the Tacker PTL did the > outreach). One thing we could do would be to productize those tools and > make them available to a wider number of people. > Yes, any tools that we can use to produce real data to inform an outreach program would be useful. Doug __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Colleen Murphy wrote: > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke > mailto:diana.joan.cla...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen! > > You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the > tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but > retaining them". > > I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left > OpenStack for their experiences on this front. > > Something along the lines of: > > "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't > contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?". > > Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be > predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there > nonetheless. > > I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be > useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on. Kind of parallel to the polling idea: John Dickinson has some interesting scripts that he runs to detect deviation from a past contribution pattern (like someone who used to contribute a few patches per cycle but did not contribute anything over the past cycle, or someone who used to contribute a handful of patches per month who did not send a single patch over the past month). Once oddities in the contribution pattern are detected, he would contact the person to ask if anything happened or changed that made them stop contributing. John would probably describe it better than I did. I like that it's not just quantitative but more around deviation from an established contribution pattern, which lets him spot issues earlier. Note that this sort of analysis works well when combined with personal outreach, which works better at project team level... If done at OpenStack level you would likely have more difficulty making it feel personal (if I end up reaching out to a Tacker dev that stopped contributing, it won't be as effective as if the Tacker PTL did the outreach). One thing we could do would be to productize those tools and make them available to a wider number of people. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke wrote: > Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen! > > You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the > tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but > retaining them". > > I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left > OpenStack for their experiences on this front. > > Something along the lines of: > > "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't > contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?". > > Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be > predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there > nonetheless. > I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on. Colleen > > Congrats again, > > --diana > > On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Colleen Murphy > wrote: > > A major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented > > contributors, but retaining them. They leave their communities or careers > > because of bias problems. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen in > OpenStack, > > but just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A long-term > > study of participation by underrepresented demographics will help us > answer > > this and fix it if necessary. > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen! You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but retaining them". I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left OpenStack for their experiences on this front. Something along the lines of: "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?". Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there nonetheless. Congrats again, --diana On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Colleen Murphy wrote: > A major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented > contributors, but retaining them. They leave their communities or careers > because of bias problems. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen in OpenStack, > but just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A long-term > study of participation by underrepresented demographics will help us answer > this and fix it if necessary. __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Excerpts from Colleen Murphy's message of 2017-10-15 11:38:47 +0200: > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Flavio Percoco wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > > inclusiveness > > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe > > this is a > > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, > > how you > > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > > improve > > first? > > > > Thank you, > > Flavio > > > > -- > > @flaper87 > > Flavio Percoco > > > > First, we need more data. We need a better gender study that doesn't rely > on first-name analysis and takes into account non-binary contributors. We > need data on who is participating from which country (I'm reasonably sure > this exists but I haven't found it published), what language they speak, > whether they are participating in IRC meetings and why or why not (time > zone problems? language barriers?). We need data on contribution by > ethnicity. > > A major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented > contributors, but retaining them. They leave their communities or careers > because of bias problems. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen in > OpenStack, but just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A > long-term study of participation by underrepresented demographics will help > us answer this and fix it if necessary. > > We do already know that we need to attract a more diverse contributor base. > To do that, we need to expand and support outreach programs, especially > things like Outreachy. It might not be a bad idea to start an > OpenStack-specific Outreachy-type thing. We need to offer more mentors to > the program so that we can support more interns. > > We need to be friendlier to new people. You might have no idea how much a > negative interaction on your first patch or your first question in IRC can > frame your opinion of a community. A new person can't help but wonder if > they are being treated that way because they have a feminine IRC nick or > because their English wasn't good. I certainly think no one here tries to > be unfriendly but I'm sure we could all do better to keep it in mind. I > think Feilong's point about being publicly shamed for making a language and > culture mistake is especially unfriendly and an example of something we can > do better at. > > Thanks for the great question. > > Colleen All good points, and well said. Doug __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
/me waves Thanks a bunch for replying to my email. As some of you may know, this is a topic that is very close to me and I that I pay lots of attention to. There's some overlap in some of your replies and I've taken notes offline so we can work together on some of them (although I'd love to see y'all pushing your ideas forward). I've decided to not summarize the thread here because I would prefer to encourage voters to read each of the replies. A summary from me would not pay justice to the effort you've put replying to my question. Thanks again and good luck to y'all, Flavio On 13/10/17 14:45 +0200, Flavio Percoco wrote: Greetings, Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and inclusiveness (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this is a broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how you think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve first? Thank you, Flavio -- @flaper87 Flavio Percoco -- @flaper87 Flavio Percoco signature.asc Description: PGP signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On 15/10/17 01:26 +0100, Erno Kuvaja wrote: What we really need to focus on is to get people _wanting_ to join us. There is next to nothing easy in OpenStack with all it's complexity and that's perfectly fine. Easy is not fun, we all want to challenge ourselves. And we have amazing community to support those who wants to join and make the difference. That is the group we need to grow and when we run out of scalability of helping the people who really wants to make the effort, then we should focus streamlining that process. I'm eager to say, we're wasting our time trying to make it super welcoming and easy just to join for everyone as long as we do not have the queue of people who really wants to make a difference. Think about it, feel free to tell that I'm totally wrong and just being ass by saying this, and when you do, please explain why you think so. I don't think you're totally wrong and I also think we might be having a problem attracting people to the community. Nevertheless, I don't think attracting people to the community is entirely related to being inclusive. If you do a massive marketing campain to attract people and your community is not welcoming (or simply ready to deal with that) then you'll end up pushing them away, hence my question ;) As you correctly pointed out, our community is amaizing but not perfect. We do have some serious issues to deal with to be more inclusive. So, I think you're onto something and your answer is valid, perhaps better in a different context. Flavio -- @flaper87 Flavio Percoco signature.asc Description: PGP signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Flavio Percoco wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe > this is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, > how you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > > -- > @flaper87 > Flavio Percoco > > First, we need more data. We need a better gender study that doesn't rely on first-name analysis and takes into account non-binary contributors. We need data on who is participating from which country (I'm reasonably sure this exists but I haven't found it published), what language they speak, whether they are participating in IRC meetings and why or why not (time zone problems? language barriers?). We need data on contribution by ethnicity. A major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but retaining them. They leave their communities or careers because of bias problems. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen in OpenStack, but just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A long-term study of participation by underrepresented demographics will help us answer this and fix it if necessary. We do already know that we need to attract a more diverse contributor base. To do that, we need to expand and support outreach programs, especially things like Outreachy. It might not be a bad idea to start an OpenStack-specific Outreachy-type thing. We need to offer more mentors to the program so that we can support more interns. We need to be friendlier to new people. You might have no idea how much a negative interaction on your first patch or your first question in IRC can frame your opinion of a community. A new person can't help but wonder if they are being treated that way because they have a feminine IRC nick or because their English wasn't good. I certainly think no one here tries to be unfriendly but I'm sure we could all do better to keep it in mind. I think Feilong's point about being publicly shamed for making a language and culture mistake is especially unfriendly and an example of something we can do better at. Thanks for the great question. Colleen __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Flavio Percoco wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this > is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how > you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > > -- > @flaper87 > Flavio Percoco > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > First of all, I'm not running for the position, so if this is inappropriate clutter by your view, skip and move on. I just think this is big enough topic to chip into the conversation and if doing so I get some of the current and/or future community/tc/ member thinking, I've more than succeeded. We've been talking about how we need to be more welcoming, inclusive, diverse and many more terms for achieving the same goal. And me if anyone as a one of the cores for top help wanted list project should be there in the front line yelling that we need more hands on the deck. Yet still I think we're trying to solve wrong problem by saying that we need to make OpenStack as welcoming as possible for everyone. There has been raised few issues we can all more or less stand behind, like Doug mentioning the -1s for typos, variable name disagreements etc. I totally disagree with his solution. We have brilliant mechanism to tackle that already, even the gerrit web ui provides one edit directly on the review, but it's culturally "not ok to touch someone else's patch (as this is individual contribution, not teamwork)". We need cultural attitude change to fix many of these issues as it's not the best usage of our gating nor reviewing resources to have yet another patch there in the queue to fix that typo. We likely still can all agree that the problem exists and is super annoying for everyone, but it's just one small thing. Taking that further we need to stop telling new contributors to find a typo and fix it as their first commit. We (Glance team) have even set disallowed change as part of our contribution guide for non-user facing typo fixes as they really don't benefit anyone but makes more work trying to keep the review queues in check and if one needs to figure out when (and why) some change was made, that clutter is not helpful in something like `git blame` either. That first commit is big thing, no doubt, and it's even bigger and more hooking thing when you actually do something meaningful with it! I still remember my fist commit as it was just after feature freeze, agreed as exception because it was part of making actually possible to run Images API v2. If that patch was comment typo fix, I probably couldn't be proudly telling about it now years later. That single word typo fix drowns so easily into the queue and the person proposing it has likely moved on week ago before the review is first time even eyeballed. This is likely one of the reasons to what Amrith said seeing, so many one commit contributors. The statistics does not tell how long it took to get that first commit merged (even if it was only one revision) and if the person was any way involved anymore when it did. Fei Long mentioned that he had work for long time to get there and it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy for me either when I joined, but guess what, we're both still here! And we're both still working hard to adjust ourselves and the community to be able to work effectively together, That happened because we were motivated to be part of the community, not just because it was made easy for us to so. That leads to my point here. We have amazing community, by no means it's perfect, but nevertheless we totally suck marketing it. I know people who likes to work with OpenStack as it's cool technology but don't want to deal with the bollox and politics in the community. And it's really not that bad, but when ever we talk about these things (publicly) we send out the message that we totally suck and we're super hostile to get anyone joining and that's most important thing we need to work on, time after time, year after year. If I was looking this as outsider now I likely wouldn't want to make the effort when the community itself claims that it sucks and it can't change in past (or future) year(s). What we really need to focus on is to get people _wanting_ to join us. There is next to nothing easy in OpenStack with all it's complexity and that's perfectly fine. Easy is not fun, we all want to challenge ourselves. And we have amazing community to support those who wants to join and make the difference. That is the group we need to grow and when we run out of scalability of helping the people who really w
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:46 PM Flavio Percoco wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe > this is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, > how you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve > first? > Hi Flavio, I'd continue promoting asynchronous communication, office hours and a good use of meetbot to generate good summaries (it's true that all IRC communication is logged, but it can be a lot of text to go through sometimes). I'd propose we write training material on inclusiveness to be included in the great work of the upstream institute. We can use this to build and maintain awareness in the community. It's important we don't think that training and educations are only for new-comers into the community. Especially after a few years in the community one may be tempted to fall into routines and/or preconceptions - it's important to keep an open mind towards people and ideas. One idea that has been bouncing in mind is trainings for newly elected PTLs or TCs or any other interested individuals. I'm thinking especially of leaders since their words often bear a stronger impact on the community. Perhaps self paced trainings where we present community guiding principles, code of conduct and vision or dedicated sessions at the PTG. Faithfully, Andrea Frittoli (andreaf) > Thank you, > Flavio > > -- > @flaper87 > Flavio Percoco > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
FeiLong, Thanks for raising the pain points as a non-English native speaker. I had similar experience with you in last 5 years. Language, timezone, culture are the common barriers for diversity and inclusiveness. We could identify what's the biggest obstacles for contributors to contribute happily. That could be done through discussions occurred in local meetup/online meeting in local language and bring conclusions back to the global community discussion. record the obstacles and find the way to overcome them. BTW, I really like the TC office hours. how you think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve first? 2017-10-14 3:22 GMT+08:00 feilong : > Thanks for asking, Flavio. That's one of the topic I mentioned in my > candidacy, that's because as a Chinese working on OpenStack in the past 6 > years, I do have some experiences about this though I agree it couldn't be > done in 1 cycle/year. But I think it's still a domain I can contribute for > OpenStack. > > I can still remember I had to join the Glance meeting at 2:00AM, and was > challenged because of saying "Hi guys" in a public channel though "Hi guys" > is used very common in New Zealand. Should we expect a non-English native > speaker to understand the details between “Hi there", "Hi guys" and "Hi > folks"? I think that's the language and culture barrier for many new > contributors. We (Brian, Erno) even tried to propose a panel at summit to > discuss it before. Currently, it's more important than ever to keep those > new contributors due to the changes happening around OpenStack nowadays. > > On 14/10/17 01:45, Flavio Percoco wrote: > > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe > this is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, > how you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > > -- > @flaper87 > Flavio Percoco > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: > openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribehttp://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > -- > Cheers & Best regards, > Feilong Wang (王飞龙) > -- > Senior Cloud Software Engineer > Tel: +64-48032246 <+64%204-803%202246> > Email: flw...@catalyst.net.nz > Catalyst IT Limited > Level 6, Catalyst House, 150 Willis Street, Wellington > -- > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > -- ChangBo Guo(gcb) Community Director @EasyStack __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Flavio Percoco wrote: > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I > believe this > is a broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, > how > you think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve first? Some rough ideas, that can be discussed as a community: - Force changes in leadership roles: I'm believe in rotations when that makes sense. We could think at some policy to not being at TC more than 2 cycles in a row (can re-apply after one cycle break). Same for PTL? (not sure on this one, some projects don't have much volunteers do run this position). But you get the idea. (some could ask why I didn't propose that during my TC mandate, it just popup in my mind by writing this email). - Keep encouraging asynchronous collaboration: dropping the TC meeting (and adding office hours) was a good example of how we can now have TC-related discussions around the globe without having to stay until late in the evening. I would like to encourage other projects to look at this concept. Hopefully we can get more contributors from around the globe and not just in US-friendly timezone. - Ensure projects growth: the number of core reviewers for some projects is imho alarming. Lack of reviewers? Lack of trust? Here are some number of the Top 5 projects (# of reviews in Pike, source stackalitics): #1 Nova - 12 cores #2 Infra - 13 cores (core, not root) #3 Cinder - 15 cores #4 Neutron - 13 cores (not counting all plugins repos, but numbers look good, probably thanks to the stadium) #5 TripleO - 32 (and we can continue) What TC can do? promote more mentoring, establish healthy policies to promote cores in projects, by defining as a community the metrics used, etc. Anyway, these things are (again) rough ideas, that we can be discussed here or somewhere else but I strongly believe we need people at TC who can, by their experience and motivation, make our community growing in healthy and diverse ways. -- Emilien Macchi __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Thanks for asking, Flavio. That's one of the topic I mentioned in my candidacy, that's because as a Chinese working on OpenStack in the past 6 years, I do have some experiences about this though I agree it couldn't be done in 1 cycle/year. But I think it's still a domain I can contribute for OpenStack. I can still remember I had to join the Glance meeting at 2:00AM, and was challenged because of saying "Hi guys" in a public channel though "Hi guys" is used very common in New Zealand. Should we expect a non-English native speaker to understand the details between “Hi there", "Hi guys" and "Hi folks"? I think that's the language and culture barrier for many new contributors. We (Brian, Erno) even tried to propose a panel at summit to discuss it before. Currently, it's more important than ever to keep those new contributors due to the changes happening around OpenStack nowadays. On 14/10/17 01:45, Flavio Percoco wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe > this is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from > y'all, how you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > > -- > @flaper87 > Flavio Percoco > > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- Cheers & Best regards, Feilong Wang (王飞龙) -- Senior Cloud Software Engineer Tel: +64-48032246 Email: flw...@catalyst.net.nz Catalyst IT Limited Level 6, Catalyst House, 150 Willis Street, Wellington -- __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Thanks Doug, I didn't know what caused the "Welcome New Contributor" thing show up in reviews, but that is exactly what I used to look for. -amrith On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Amrith Kumar's message of 2017-10-13 13:32:54 -0400: >> Flavio, >> >> Some months back I looked at a slide that Thierry showed at a meeting; >> it showed contributor statistics and it showed that there were a large >> number of contributors who made exactly 1 commit which sometimes got >> merged, but there was a huge drop off from 1 commit to 2 commits! >> >> So I got to thinking about what could cause that and how one could get >> to the second commit (once you're hooked, you are hooked!). >> >> To that end, I tried to give priority to first time committers; if I >> saw a commit that said "New Contributor", I try to not only thank them >> for it, but also be much more responsive. I hope that helped at least >> one contributor go from 1st commit to 2nd commit. > > This is a great point. It's easy to find new contributors because > we have a bot that drops a welcome message on their patch, and > gerrit can query by reviewer: > > https://review.openstack.org/#/q/reviewer:%22Welcome%252C+new+contributor!%22+status:open,n,z > >> >> Other than that, working (with Dims) trying to take up a number of >> initiatives that bring new contributors to OpenStack including >> >> - speaking to university students (a project I proposed a while back >> called OpenStack in the classroom[1]) >> - making presentations at Summit(s) meetups, and any other place which >> will have us to tell people about OpenStack[2]. >> - participate (as a mentor) in the OpenStack mentorship program, the >> Women of OpenStack program, and a myriad of other non-OpenStack >> community development programs >> >> Shameless plug for Dims & my presentation at Summit in Sydney about >> contributing to OpenStack [2]. >> >> Thanks for the question! >> >> -amrith >> >> [1] http://openstack.markmail.org/thread/qadfotwkoj6alivj >> [2] >> https://www.openstack.org/summit/sydney-2017/summit-schedule/events/19116/getting-started-with-contributing-to-openstack-dos-and-donts >> >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Flavio Percoco wrote: >> > Greetings, >> > >> > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and >> > inclusiveness >> > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this >> > is a >> > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how >> > you >> > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you >> > improve >> > first? >> > >> > Thank you, >> > Flavio >> > >> > -- >> > @flaper87 >> > Flavio Percoco >> > >> > __ >> > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev >> > >> > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Excerpts from Amrith Kumar's message of 2017-10-13 13:32:54 -0400: > Flavio, > > Some months back I looked at a slide that Thierry showed at a meeting; > it showed contributor statistics and it showed that there were a large > number of contributors who made exactly 1 commit which sometimes got > merged, but there was a huge drop off from 1 commit to 2 commits! > > So I got to thinking about what could cause that and how one could get > to the second commit (once you're hooked, you are hooked!). > > To that end, I tried to give priority to first time committers; if I > saw a commit that said "New Contributor", I try to not only thank them > for it, but also be much more responsive. I hope that helped at least > one contributor go from 1st commit to 2nd commit. This is a great point. It's easy to find new contributors because we have a bot that drops a welcome message on their patch, and gerrit can query by reviewer: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/reviewer:%22Welcome%252C+new+contributor!%22+status:open,n,z > > Other than that, working (with Dims) trying to take up a number of > initiatives that bring new contributors to OpenStack including > > - speaking to university students (a project I proposed a while back > called OpenStack in the classroom[1]) > - making presentations at Summit(s) meetups, and any other place which > will have us to tell people about OpenStack[2]. > - participate (as a mentor) in the OpenStack mentorship program, the > Women of OpenStack program, and a myriad of other non-OpenStack > community development programs > > Shameless plug for Dims & my presentation at Summit in Sydney about > contributing to OpenStack [2]. > > Thanks for the question! > > -amrith > > [1] http://openstack.markmail.org/thread/qadfotwkoj6alivj > [2] > https://www.openstack.org/summit/sydney-2017/summit-schedule/events/19116/getting-started-with-contributing-to-openstack-dos-and-donts > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Flavio Percoco wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > > inclusiveness > > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this > > is a > > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how > > you > > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > > improve > > first? > > > > Thank you, > > Flavio > > > > -- > > @flaper87 > > Flavio Percoco > > > > __ > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Flavio, Some months back I looked at a slide that Thierry showed at a meeting; it showed contributor statistics and it showed that there were a large number of contributors who made exactly 1 commit which sometimes got merged, but there was a huge drop off from 1 commit to 2 commits! So I got to thinking about what could cause that and how one could get to the second commit (once you're hooked, you are hooked!). To that end, I tried to give priority to first time committers; if I saw a commit that said "New Contributor", I try to not only thank them for it, but also be much more responsive. I hope that helped at least one contributor go from 1st commit to 2nd commit. Other than that, working (with Dims) trying to take up a number of initiatives that bring new contributors to OpenStack including - speaking to university students (a project I proposed a while back called OpenStack in the classroom[1]) - making presentations at Summit(s) meetups, and any other place which will have us to tell people about OpenStack[2]. - participate (as a mentor) in the OpenStack mentorship program, the Women of OpenStack program, and a myriad of other non-OpenStack community development programs Shameless plug for Dims & my presentation at Summit in Sydney about contributing to OpenStack [2]. Thanks for the question! -amrith [1] http://openstack.markmail.org/thread/qadfotwkoj6alivj [2] https://www.openstack.org/summit/sydney-2017/summit-schedule/events/19116/getting-started-with-contributing-to-openstack-dos-and-donts On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Flavio Percoco wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this > is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how > you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > > -- > @flaper87 > Flavio Percoco > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Excerpts from Flavio Percoco's message of 2017-10-13 14:45:28 +0200: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this > is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how > you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > If I had a magic wand, I would use it to find all of the -1 reviews in gerrit for typos, wording clarifications, markup corrections, variable naming disagreements, and other minor issues and turn them into +1/+2 votes with a follow-up patch from the reviewer to fix the problems. I think this one small change would transform our review culture from one of "seeking perfection in others" to "helping each other find perfection together", and the result would make us more welcoming to contributors of all types. Doug __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On 13/10/17 13:45, Flavio Percoco wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe > this is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, > how you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > > -- > @flaper87 > Flavio Percoco > Honestly, short of the the (already in progress) work to help new contributors getting on board I do not know what the best way is. But - that is down to me matching the "stereotypical" software engineer image people have - I did not have to work as hard to become part of the community as the people we are trying to encourage to join us will have to, and have had to already to get to a point where they want to join us. So - how could we make our community more inclusive? Ask, and listen to the problems people joining us in the past have had. Then use that information to find a solution. Iterate, find the next problem. Try to solve it. Repeat. Profit? OK ^ is a bit glib. But, this is not something we are going to solve in a cycle, or even a year - it will be a long term project, and someone like me, speaking from a position of privilege, about how to fix it is *not* how we should try to improve our situation. > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 02:45:28PM +0200, Flavio Percoco wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this > is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how > you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > I admit, I didn't include this topic in my email. And I'll be the first to say inclusiveness is an import and healthy issue to have for any project / society. Listening, and learning, what makes people comfortable to engage and contribute would be on my list. This applied both to any project and persons. I'd learn how other projects are responding to the topic and possible engage with those leaders to share successes. > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Greetings Flavio, My perception is that if we need to encourage the spreading of task, roles, responsibility amongst many. In other words, encourage building trust. Building trust should hopefully foster a personal sense of investment and responsibility, hopefully resulting in further diversity as time goes by improving contributor retention. That being said, I think step zero would be an assessment of what data is available and the identification of what is missing from the puzzle. -Julia On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Flavio Percoco wrote: > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this > is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how > you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you > improve > first? __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Hi Flavio, I would like to refer to another thread about areas the TC should be more active in raised by Ed Leafe where trust and mentorship were brought up by a few of us. I think one of the key factors of being open and inclusive is to help and mentor new contributors/community members regardless where and who they are. To mention examples, we have several places around the globe with time zones we didn’t necessarily keep in mind in the past or areas where language barriers are higher. I think we need to spend time on understanding what the barriers might be that keep people back from actively participating in the community while we are thinking about actions. Seeing the activity on the #openstack-tc channel I think that’s a great example of how to involve and engage more people in the different discussions by removing the dedicated meeting slot and switch to office hours and providing a forum where TC members are available to everyone. We have a new proposal to create a SIG called (something like) 'First Contact SIG’. I hope discussions on diversity and inclusiveness will come up there with the people who are passionate about on-boarding. As joining an open environment can be challenging and intimidating having people who are eager to help visible and accessible is crucial. To the margin, I think on the technology side we are progressing well, so I would not reflect on that in this thread. Thanks and Best Regards, Ildikó > On 2017. Oct 13., at 14:45, Flavio Percoco wrote: > > Greetings, > > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and > inclusiveness > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this > is a > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how > you > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve > first? > > Thank you, > Flavio > > -- > @flaper87 > Flavio Percoco > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
[openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?
Greetings, Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and inclusiveness (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this is a broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how you think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve first? Thank you, Flavio -- @flaper87 Flavio Percoco signature.asc Description: PGP signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev