Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
In keeping with the brevity of the email below, YES Enough others have opined on the why, I have nothing new to add and I am happy to just say +1 ... -amrith > -Original Message- > From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:dava...@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 9:39 AM > To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) d...@lists.openstack.org> > Subject: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel > > Folks, > > See $TITLE :) > > Thanks, > Dims > > -- > Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
+1 to "my preference is to just start with the -dev channel" Thanks, Dims On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 4:23 AM, John Garbutt wrote: > On 16 May 2017 at 16:08, Doug Hellmann wrote: >> Excerpts from Sean Dague's message of 2017-05-16 10:49:54 -0400: >>> On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >>> > Folks, >>> > >>> > See $TITLE :) >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Dims >>> >>> I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev. >>> #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like >>> #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to >>> make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead >>> of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we >>> can get a broader conversation around the item in question. >>> >>> Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely >>> exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people >>> need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up >>> on things. >>> >>> I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are >>> being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize >>> them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until >>> that's actually a problem. >>> >>> -Sean >> >> +1, let's start with just the -dev channel and see if volume becomes >> an issue. > > +1 my preference is to just start with the -dev channel, and see how we go. > > +1 all the comments about the history and the discussion needing to be > summarised via ML/gerrit anyway. We can link to the logs of the -dev > channel for the "raw" discussion. > > Thanks, > johnthetubaguy > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 16 May 2017 at 16:08, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Sean Dague's message of 2017-05-16 10:49:54 -0400: >> On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> > Folks, >> > >> > See $TITLE :) >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Dims >> >> I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev. >> #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like >> #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to >> make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead >> of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we >> can get a broader conversation around the item in question. >> >> Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely >> exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people >> need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up >> on things. >> >> I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are >> being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize >> them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until >> that's actually a problem. >> >> -Sean > > +1, let's start with just the -dev channel and see if volume becomes > an issue. +1 my preference is to just start with the -dev channel, and see how we go. +1 all the comments about the history and the discussion needing to be summarised via ML/gerrit anyway. We can link to the logs of the -dev channel for the "raw" discussion. Thanks, johnthetubaguy __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On May 16, 2017, at 3:06 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > >> It's pretty clear now some see drawbacks in reusing #openstack-dev, and >> so far the only benefit expressed (beyond not having to post the config >> change to make it happen) is that "everybody is already there". By that >> rule, we should not create any new channel :) > > That was not the only concern expressed. It also silos us away from > the community who has elected us to represent them, potentially > creating another IRC echo chamber. Unless you somehow restrict access to the channel, it isn't much of a silo. I see TC members in many other channels, so it isn't as if there will be no interaction between TC members and the community that they serve. I also think that a channel like #openstack-tc is more discoverable to people who might want to interact with the TC, as it follows the same naming convention as #openstack-nova, #openstack-ironic, etc. -- Ed Leafe signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:13:05PM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Sean Dague wrote: > > On 05/16/2017 03:59 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > >> Thierry Carrez wrote: > >>> Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level > >>> of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community > >>> discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to > >>> pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have > >>> trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a > >>> specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level > >>> of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they > >>> *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid. > >> > >> To summarize, I fear that using a general development discussion channel > >> as the TC discussion channel will turn *every* development discussion > >> into a TC discussion. I don't think that's desirable. > > > > Maybe we have different ideas of what we expect to be the kinds of > > discussions and asks. What do you think would be in #openstack-tc that > > would not be appropriate for #openstack-dev, and why? > > It's the other way around. There are (hopefully more and more) > discussions in #openstack-dev that are noise for anyone watching this > channel in "TC-office-hours mode" (like a TC member who needs to pay > attention to what is being said on that channel). > > I prioritize channels based on the attention I need to pay to them. The > channel used for TC questions / office hours would be at the top of my > list, so I would rather avoid all the noise we can :) Same for me. If there is a dedicated -tc channel, then when I see activity in the channel I would know I need to pay attention. If it is in -dev, I fear there would be frequent distractions jumping between channels to see if the activity is relevant to me or not. > > Looking at recent logs from #openstack-dev, I can see it would be a bit > painful to sort out what is actionable TC stuff from what is long > general development discussions and random are-you-around pings. > > -- > Thierry Carrez (ttx) > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 2017-05-16 23:13:05 +0200 (+0200), Thierry Carrez wrote: [...] > Looking at recent logs from #openstack-dev, I can see it would be a bit > painful to sort out what is actionable TC stuff from what is long > general development discussions and random are-you-around pings. I'm likely misunderstanding the specifics of what you expect to see discussed in this case. It seems to me like exactly the same sort of cross-project/inter-project communication I would expect to come up in informal IRC discussions where the participants might want to also get input from a handful of TC members. I would only be likely to prioritize the channel during scheduled TC member office hours and then treat it as potential mid-priority background where I'm mostly monitoring for nick/keyword highlights the rest of the time. Anything important should still surface in an ML thread afterward, and eventually in Gerrit if the action to be taken involves a motion/resolution or reference change. -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: Digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
Sean Dague wrote: > On 05/16/2017 03:59 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote: >> Thierry Carrez wrote: >>> Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level >>> of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community >>> discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to >>> pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have >>> trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a >>> specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level >>> of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they >>> *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid. >> >> To summarize, I fear that using a general development discussion channel >> as the TC discussion channel will turn *every* development discussion >> into a TC discussion. I don't think that's desirable. > > Maybe we have different ideas of what we expect to be the kinds of > discussions and asks. What do you think would be in #openstack-tc that > would not be appropriate for #openstack-dev, and why? It's the other way around. There are (hopefully more and more) discussions in #openstack-dev that are noise for anyone watching this channel in "TC-office-hours mode" (like a TC member who needs to pay attention to what is being said on that channel). I prioritize channels based on the attention I need to pay to them. The channel used for TC questions / office hours would be at the top of my list, so I would rather avoid all the noise we can :) Looking at recent logs from #openstack-dev, I can see it would be a bit painful to sort out what is actionable TC stuff from what is long general development discussions and random are-you-around pings. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 05/16/2017 03:59 PM, Thierry Carrez wrote: > Thierry Carrez wrote: >> Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level >> of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community >> discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to >> pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have >> trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a >> specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level >> of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they >> *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid. > > To summarize, I fear that using a general development discussion channel > as the TC discussion channel will turn *every* development discussion > into a TC discussion. I don't think that's desirable. Maybe we have different ideas of what we expect to be the kinds of discussions and asks. What do you think would be in #openstack-tc that would not be appropriate for #openstack-dev, and why? -Sean -- Sean Dague http://dague.net __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 2017-05-16 21:53:43 +0200 (+0200), Thierry Carrez wrote: [...] > I wouldn't say it's premature optimization, we create channels all the > time. #openstack-dev is a general discussion channel, which is used for > anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. If you look at recent logs, > you'll see that it is used for general community pings, but also lengthy > inter-project discussions. Those sound entirely on-topic for #openstack-dev to me. Like others on this thread I also worry that a TC-specific channel will seem "exclusive" when really we're just members of the community having discussions with other members of the community (elected or not). > Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level > of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community > discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to > pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have > trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a > specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level > of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they > *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid. If we go with office hours as proposed I for one would pay close attention to whatever's said on #openstack-dev during those scheduled timeframes, highlighted or not. Having a common highlight is merely a possible means of getting the attention of specific people in a channel without them needing to pay close attention to everything said in that channel. > It's pretty clear now some see drawbacks in reusing #openstack-dev, and > so far the only benefit expressed (beyond not having to post the config > change to make it happen) is that "everybody is already there". By that > rule, we should not create any new channel :) That was not the only concern expressed. It also silos us away from the community who has elected us to represent them, potentially creating another IRC echo chamber. -- Jeremy Stanley __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
Thierry Carrez wrote: > Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level > of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community > discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to > pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have > trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a > specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level > of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they > *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid. To summarize, I fear that using a general development discussion channel as the TC discussion channel will turn *every* development discussion into a TC discussion. I don't think that's desirable. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
Jeremy Stanley wrote: > On 2017-05-16 09:38:34 -0400 (-0400), Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> See $TITLE :) > > Trying not to rehash other points, I'm in favor of using > #openstack-dev for now until we see it's not working out. Creating a > new channel for this purpose before we've even undertaken the > experiment seems like a social form of premature optimization. I wouldn't say it's premature optimization, we create channels all the time. #openstack-dev is a general discussion channel, which is used for anything that doesn't fit anywhere else. If you look at recent logs, you'll see that it is used for general community pings, but also lengthy inter-project discussions. Here we have a clear topic, and TC members need to pay a certain level of attention to whatever is said. Mixing it with other community discussions (which I have to prioritize lower) just makes it harder to pay the right level of attention to the channel. Basically I have trouble to see how we can repurpose a general discussion channel into a specific group office-hours channel (different topics, different level of attention to be paid). Asking people to use a ping list when they *really* need to get TC members attention feels like a band-aid. It's pretty clear now some see drawbacks in reusing #openstack-dev, and so far the only benefit expressed (beyond not having to post the config change to make it happen) is that "everybody is already there". By that rule, we should not create any new channel :) -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote: > rooters these days). Something like "tc-members" can be used to > address a question specifically to those on the TC who happen to be > around and paying attention and also gives people looking at the > logs a useful string to grep/search/whatever. I've gone ahead and > configured my client to highlight on that now. Awesome idea... this may also be as close to an in-band tag (ML subject-like tag) as we're going to get short of #topic in IRC. (/me avoids discussion of the effectiveness of such a feature). dt P.S. I used 'tc-member' to catch both singular and plural forms. -- Dean Troyer dtro...@gmail.com __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Sean McGinnis wrote: > If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross- > talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep > through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC > discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very > easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture > of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the > lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at. Right now the filtering aspect is swaying me to a dedicated channel. There is really no way to extract topics out of IRC logs, and for many discussions we do not need to be able to do that. Here we are talking about the background information for decisions that will be summarized and recorded elsewhere. I would really like to not add a new channel and do like the increased traffic in -dev as of the last few months, but right now I think -tc may be warranted. dt -- Dean Troyer dtro...@gmail.com __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 2017-05-16 09:38:34 -0400 (-0400), Davanum Srinivas wrote: > See $TITLE :) Trying not to rehash other points, I'm in favor of using #openstack-dev for now until we see it's not working out. Creating a new channel for this purpose before we've even undertaken the experiment seems like a social form of premature optimization. If the concern is that it's hard to get the attention of (I hate to say "ping" since contextlessly highlighting people in channel to find out whether they're around is especially annoying to me at least) members of the OpenStack Technical Committee, the Infra team's root sysadmins already solved this issue by all configuring their clients to highliht on a specific keyword (in that case, "infra-root" mentioned in channel gets the attention of most of our rooters these days). Something like "tc-members" can be used to address a question specifically to those on the TC who happen to be around and paying attention and also gives people looking at the logs a useful string to grep/search/whatever. I've gone ahead and configured my client to highlight on that now. As for losing context when a discussion transfers from informal temperature taking, brainstorming and bikeshedding in IRC to a less synchronous thread on the ML, simply making sure to include a URL to the point in the channel log where the discussion began ought to be sufficient (and should be encouraged _regardless_ of which channel that was). -- Jeremy Stanley signature.asc Description: Digital signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
Davanum Srinivas wrote: > On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Michał Jastrzębski wrote: >> On 16 May 2017 at 08:32, Doug Hellmann wrote: >>> Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-05-16 10:17:35 -0500: My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel. One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any non TC conversations interlaced. If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross- talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at. >>> >>> I definitely understand this desire. I think, though, that any >>> significant conversations should be made discoverable via an email >>> thread summarizing them. That honors the spirit of moving our >>> "decision making" to asynchronous communication tools. I also prefer we opt for an #openstack-tc channel. A channel is defined by the topic of its discussions, and #openstack-dev is a catch-all, a default channel. Reusing it for topical discussions will force everyone to filter through random discussions in order to get to the really-TC-related ones. Yes, it's not used much. But that isn't a good reason to recycle it. >> To both this and Dims's concerns, I actually think we need some place >> to just come and ask "guys, is this fine?". If answer would be "let's >> talk on ML because it's important", that's cool, but on the other hand >> sometimes simple "yes" would suffice. Not all conversations with TC >> requires mailing thread, but I'd love to have some "semi-official" TC >> space where I can drop question, quickly discuss cross-project issues >> and such. > > Michal, > > Let's try using the ping list on #openstack-dev channel: > cdent dhellmann dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 fungi johnthetubaguy > mordred sdague smcginnis stevemar ttx > > The IRC nicks are here: > https://governance.openstack.org/tc/#current-members If you need a ping list to reuse the default channel as a TC "office hours" channel, that kind of proves that a dedicated channel would be more appropriate :) -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 2017-05-16 11:46 AM, Sean Dague wrote: On 05/16/2017 11:17 AM, Sean McGinnis wrote: On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, See $TITLE :) Thanks, Dims My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel. One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any non TC conversations interlaced. If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross- talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at. The thing is, IRC should never be a summary or long term storage medium. IRC is a discussion medium. It is a hallway track. It's where ideas bounce around lots are left on the floor, there are lots of misstatements as people explore things. It's not store and forward messaging, it's realtime chat. If we want digestible summaries with context, that's never IRC, and we shouldn't expect people to look to IRC for that. It's source material at best. I'm not sure of any IRC conversation that's ever been clean, easy to read, and captures the entire context within it without jumping to assumptions of shared background that the conversation participants already have. Summaries with context need to emerge from here for people to be able to follow along (out to email or web), and work their way back into the conversations. -Sean I'll disagree on this point. I do agree IRC is a discussion medium. I further agree that any agreements decided upon need to be further disseminated via other media. However, I disagree the only value for those trying to catch up with items that took place in the past lies in a digestible summary. The conversation of how that agreement was arrived at holds great value. Feel free to disregard what I have to say, because I'm not really involved right now. But I would like to feel that should occasion arise I could step back in, do my homework reading past conversations and have a reasonable understanding of the current state of things. For me OpenStack is about people, foibles and mistakes included. I think there is a huge value in seeing how a conversation develops and how an agreement came into being, sometimes this is far more valuable to me than the agreement itself. Agreements and policies are constantly changing, but the process of discussion and how we reach this agreement is often more important both to me and as a demonstration to others of how to interact effectively than the final agreement, which will likely change next release or two. If you are going to do away with tc meetings and I can't find the backstory in an IRC tc meeting log then at least let me find the backstory in a channel somewhere. I am in favour of using #openstack-dev for this purpose. I appreciate Sean McGuinnis' point about have the conversation focused, I don't think you would get that even if you had a dedicated #openstack-tc channel. Either channel would include side conversations and unrelated chat, I don't see anyway for that not to happen. So for me I would go with using what we already have, also including Sean and Doug's previous points that we already are fractured enough, it sure would be nice to see some good use of already existing public spaces. Thank you, Anita. __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > On 16 May 2017 at 08:32, Doug Hellmann wrote: >> Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-05-16 10:17:35 -0500: >>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >>> > Folks, >>> > >>> > See $TITLE :) >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Dims >>> > >>> >>> My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel. >>> >>> One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to >>> attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on >>> what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any >>> non TC conversations interlaced. >>> >>> If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross- >>> talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep >>> through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC >>> discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very >>> easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture >>> of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the >>> lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at. >>> >>> Sean >>> >> >> I definitely understand this desire. I think, though, that any >> significant conversations should be made discoverable via an email >> thread summarizing them. That honors the spirit of moving our >> "decision making" to asynchronous communication tools. > > To both this and Dims's concerns, I actually think we need some place > to just come and ask "guys, is this fine?". If answer would be "let's > talk on ML because it's important", that's cool, but on the other hand > sometimes simple "yes" would suffice. Not all conversations with TC > requires mailing thread, but I'd love to have some "semi-official" TC > space where I can drop question, quickly discuss cross-project issues > and such. Michal, Let's try using the ping list on #openstack-dev channel: cdent dhellmann dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 fungi johnthetubaguy mordred sdague smcginnis stevemar ttx The IRC nicks are here: https://governance.openstack.org/tc/#current-members Looks like the foundation page needs refreshing, will ping folks about it. https://www.openstack.org/foundation/tech-committee/ Thanks, Dims >> Doug >> >> __ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 16 May 2017 at 08:32, Doug Hellmann wrote: > Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-05-16 10:17:35 -0500: >> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> > Folks, >> > >> > See $TITLE :) >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Dims >> > >> >> My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel. >> >> One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to >> attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on >> what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any >> non TC conversations interlaced. >> >> If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross- >> talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep >> through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC >> discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very >> easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture >> of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the >> lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at. >> >> Sean >> > > I definitely understand this desire. I think, though, that any > significant conversations should be made discoverable via an email > thread summarizing them. That honors the spirit of moving our > "decision making" to asynchronous communication tools. To both this and Dims's concerns, I actually think we need some place to just come and ask "guys, is this fine?". If answer would be "let's talk on ML because it's important", that's cool, but on the other hand sometimes simple "yes" would suffice. Not all conversations with TC requires mailing thread, but I'd love to have some "semi-official" TC space where I can drop question, quickly discuss cross-project issues and such. > Doug > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 05/16/2017 11:17 AM, Sean McGinnis wrote: > On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> Folks, >> >> See $TITLE :) >> >> Thanks, >> Dims >> > > My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel. > > One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to > attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on > what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any > non TC conversations interlaced. > > If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross- > talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep > through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC > discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very > easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture > of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the > lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at. The thing is, IRC should never be a summary or long term storage medium. IRC is a discussion medium. It is a hallway track. It's where ideas bounce around lots are left on the floor, there are lots of misstatements as people explore things. It's not store and forward messaging, it's realtime chat. If we want digestible summaries with context, that's never IRC, and we shouldn't expect people to look to IRC for that. It's source material at best. I'm not sure of any IRC conversation that's ever been clean, easy to read, and captures the entire context within it without jumping to assumptions of shared background that the conversation participants already have. Summaries with context need to emerge from here for people to be able to follow along (out to email or web), and work their way back into the conversations. -Sean -- Sean Dague http://dague.net __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
Excerpts from Sean McGinnis's message of 2017-05-16 10:17:35 -0500: > On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > > Folks, > > > > See $TITLE :) > > > > Thanks, > > Dims > > > > My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel. > > One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to > attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on > what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any > non TC conversations interlaced. > > If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross- > talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep > through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC > discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very > easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture > of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the > lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at. > > Sean > I definitely understand this desire. I think, though, that any significant conversations should be made discoverable via an email thread summarizing them. That honors the spirit of moving our "decision making" to asynchronous communication tools. Doug __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
Michał, My fear is that anything said on that channel will come down as "TC told us to do / not do such-and-such a thing" -- Dims On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Michał Jastrzębski wrote: > On 16 May 2017 at 07:49, Sean Dague wrote: >> On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> See $TITLE :) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dims >> >> I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev. >> #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like >> #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to >> make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead >> of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we >> can get a broader conversation around the item in question. >> >> Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely >> exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people >> need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up >> on things. >> >> I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are >> being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize >> them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until >> that's actually a problem. >> >> -Sean > > I, on the flip side, would be all for #openstack-tc. First, > #openstack-dev is not obvious to look for TC members, #openstack-tc > would be channel to talk about tc related stuff, which in large > portion would be something significant and worth coming back to, so > having this "filtered" field just for cross-community discussions > would make digging through logs much easier. > >> -- >> Sean Dague >> http://dague.net >> >> __ >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev -- Davanum Srinivas :: https://twitter.com/dims __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 09:38:34AM -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > Folks, > > See $TITLE :) > > Thanks, > Dims > My preference would be to have an #openstack-tc channel. One thing I like about the dedicated meeting time was if I was not able to attend, or when I was just a casual observer, it was easy to catch up on what was discussed because it was all in one place and did not have any non TC conversations interlaced. If we just use -dev, there is a high chance there will be a lot of cross- talk during discussions. There would also be a lot of effort to grep through the full day of activity to find things relevant to TC discussions. If we have a dedicated channel for this, it makes it very easy for anyone to know where to go to get a clean, easy to read capture of all relevant discussions. I think that will be important with the lack of a captured and summarized meeting to look at. Sean __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
Excerpts from Sean Dague's message of 2017-05-16 10:49:54 -0400: > On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > > Folks, > > > > See $TITLE :) > > > > Thanks, > > Dims > > I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev. > #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like > #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to > make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead > of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we > can get a broader conversation around the item in question. > > Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely > exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people > need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up > on things. > > I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are > being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize > them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until > that's actually a problem. > > -Sean > +1, let's start with just the -dev channel and see if volume becomes an issue. Doug __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 16 May 2017 at 07:49, Sean Dague wrote: > On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: >> Folks, >> >> See $TITLE :) >> >> Thanks, >> Dims > > I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev. > #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like > #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to > make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead > of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we > can get a broader conversation around the item in question. > > Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely > exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people > need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up > on things. > > I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are > being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize > them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until > that's actually a problem. > > -Sean I, on the flip side, would be all for #openstack-tc. First, #openstack-dev is not obvious to look for TC members, #openstack-tc would be channel to talk about tc related stuff, which in large portion would be something significant and worth coming back to, so having this "filtered" field just for cross-community discussions would make digging through logs much easier. > -- > Sean Dague > http://dague.net > > __ > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 05/16/2017 09:38 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > Folks, > > See $TITLE :) > > Thanks, > Dims I'd rather avoid #openstack-tc and just use #openstack-dev. #openstack-dev is pretty low used environment (compared to like #openstack-infra or #openstack-nova). I've personally been trying to make it my go to way to hit up members of other teams whenever instead of diving into project specific channels, because typically it means we can get a broader conversation around the item in question. Our fragmentation of shared understanding on many issues is definitely exacerbated by many project channels, and the assumption that people need to watch 20+ different channels, with different context, to stay up on things. I would love us to have the problem that too many interesting topics are being discussed in #openstack-dev that we feel the need to parallelize them with a different channel. But I would say we should wait until that's actually a problem. -Sean -- Sean Dague http://dague.net __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][all] Do we need a #openstack-tc IRC channel
On 16/05/17 09:38 -0400, Davanum Srinivas wrote: Folks, See $TITLE :) Thanks, Dims Just to give more context to other folks: This came up when we were discussing how we can move forward with the idea of replacing the TC meetings. One concern is that by not having meetings, it might be hard to contact the TC other than sending emails to the ML, which is not ideal for all cases. One option is to just use #openstack-dev and the other one is, well, create the #openstack-tc channel. I'm ok with whatever option, really. However, using #openstack-dev would help with the following: * We're all there and, more importantly, most of the comunity is there already. Whenever discussions will happen, they'll be logged and they encourage other ppl to join, ask questions, or just lurk. * #openstack-tc gives the sense of a "special" group, which we're not. Yes, we've responsibilities. Yes, we are a team BUT we serve the community and I don't want anyone feeling that "#openstack-tc" is just were the "TC" hangs out. * New members in the community are more likely to join #openstack-dev first. There are some drawbacks, though: * Whenever there are ad-hoc conversations that need to happen, using #openstack-dev might end up "locking" the channel until those conversations are finished. Not explicitly but it'll happen. A dedicated channel would allow for reducing the noise during these discussions. Flavio -- @flaper87 Flavio Percoco signature.asc Description: PGP signature __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev