Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On 9/12/2005 5:31 AM Scott Leighton wrote: > On Sunday 11 September 2005 7:57 pm, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > > > As I said earlier, I would not object to a repository that > contained '3rd party' packages that SUSE makes no claim > of any responsibility. AFAIK That is what the suse-Mirrors with the apt7yum/yast/.. repositories are doing atm. > > But the stuff I receive on the media in the box set implies, > at least to me, that it meets SUSE's quality standards and > has passed QC, so I can trust that I will encounter no > issues using any packages on that media. ACK. > Sorry, but I don't see how that would work. You say 'broken or > low quality packages would be removed', well who does that? It's > SUSE's name on the distro, in order to even know a package is > broken, they would have to QC it, incurring that expense. Why > should they bother? ACK here too. >> I would hold Novell 100% responsible for the SuSE Linux release but I >> would be inclined to allow more participation in the SuSE Linux OSS >> products (which I think would end up being of very good quality >> overall anyway). > > Hey, I have absolutely no objection to having 3rd party stuff on > a downloadable ISO or a repository online somewhere. I just think > that loading up the official boxed set distro with a bunch of > extra stuff unnecessarily increases the cost of producing the > product and would confuse (and potentially infuriate if they > were broken) new users who already have package overload. ACK. If it is in the official box, I would assume that SUSE tested it or would have left it off that box. OJ -- Wenn man diese CD rückwärts abspielt, sind "Die satanischen Verse" zu hören. Das ist aber nicht weiter schlimm. Schlimm ist, dass sie Windows installiert, wenn man sie vorwärts abspielt. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
> > BTW (just because I'm curious), will Novell sell commercial support for > > the Linux SuSE OSS distribution? > > No way. However, commercial support is available for SLES / NLD and SUSE > Linux (retail version). Then I fail to see any relevance in the "Novell has to support the distribution and Debian does not" argument (which is false, anyway: as I've mentioned, companies *do* support Debian, no company seems to support SuSE Linux OSS anyway) for not including third-party packages in the official SuSE Linux OSS distribution. Alejo. http://azul.freaks-unidos.net/ ---=( Comunidad de Usuarios de Software Libre en Colombia )=--- ---=( http://bachue.com/colibri )=--=( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )=--- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Marcus Meissner wrote: > On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 08:49:39AM +0200, Christoph Thiel wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > > BTW (just because I'm curious), will Novell sell commercial support for > > > the Linux SuSE OSS distribution? > > > > No way. However, commercial support is available for SLES / NLD and SUSE > > Linux (retail version). > > Correction: Novell commercial support is NOT available for SUSE Linux retail. > (it has only installation support) No, it has "incident-based support and advanced support". Just browse to: http://www.novell.com/products/linuxprofessional/support/advanced.html Regards Christoph - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Tue, Sep 13, 2005 at 08:49:39AM +0200, Christoph Thiel wrote: > On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > > [...] > > > BTW (just because I'm curious), will Novell sell commercial support for > > the Linux SuSE OSS distribution? > > No way. However, commercial support is available for SLES / NLD and SUSE > Linux (retail version). Correction: Novell commercial support is NOT available for SUSE Linux retail. (it has only installation support) Ciao, Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: [...] > BTW (just because I'm curious), will Novell sell commercial support for > the Linux SuSE OSS distribution? No way. However, commercial support is available for SLES / NLD and SUSE Linux (retail version). Regards Christoph - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Mon, Sep 12, 2005 at 08:01:18AM -0500, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > Why not take that a bit further and make some of those packages from > 3rd party repositories official packages? And actually include them > in ISOs? I, though, don't feel this is very urgent and would be > satisfied with what I believe is likely to happen: Novell gradually > starting to include high-quality third party packages into the base > distribution. They actually do this if they find packages by other people are of general use for them/their users. For example there are some packages originally built by me in the distribution for some releases now. But they can't do this for every package because making a package what you call "official" produces additional work for them and they don't have infinite ressources. If you are so focused in putting stuff into ISOs you should just convince the 3rd party packagers to produce ISOs out of their repositories or do this on your own with their packages. Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpLwL6dOXDaX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
Just to clarify what SuSE users are expecting and what makes the main difference between a project for enthusiasts and by entushiasts of Free Software as Debian and a project like OpenSuSE, a project for and by people who wants to collaborate in a Novell/SuSE effort to open their technology to improve it and for enthusiasts of SuSE Linux and not just the Free Software ones (I mean, there is no SuSE GNU/Linux) : On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 08:01 -0500, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > They most certainly are. Look at: > > http://www.debian.org/support > There are a lots of sites like that about SuSE, but, none of them are really support, the kind of "commercial support" that organization of different kinds used to have with contracts by respected companies with well seasoned technicians backed by vendors who make the techonology. > If you are refering to commercial support, look at > > http://www.debian.org/consultants , > > which lists consultants in over 50 countries. As you can see, the > procedures in place around Debian allow these consultants to offer > commercial support around it, even though they control Debian, as a > whole, much less than Novell controls SuSE (since they have to go > through the regular procedures). I'm really concerned about it : I saw on that link just 3 folks on my country (Peru) and for one of them I know there is no evaluation process, but, I looked in countries around and saw that Argentina got just 8, Venezuela just 2, Colombia got none, etc. At least, in my country, there are 4 companies given support for SuSE and no less than 80 experts in SuSE around the country. However, developers collaboration should be defined, because one of the main objectives of the project is to gain more developers involved with SuSE Linux and from the roadmap http://www.opensuse.org/Roadmap (yes, OpenSuSE has one), we can see that early next year Novell/SuSE will open AutoBuild (which is not the same as buildd). OpenSuSE is not Debian, it shouldn't be Debian (at least for me), but, it can take good practices from Debian and Debian should do the same from others, so, it could take the next step to be as professional as Linux from SuSE is. Regards, -- Walter Cuestas Agramonte InfoSec / Open Source Consultant LPIC-1 CCLE-CCLI BCLA RHCE BNSA MCP, CCNA, IBM CS MCNE, CNS, CNI, CNST, CLS http://wcuestas.blog-city.com Phone : 511-97926168 # ## # # # # " # " # ##v## ## vvv ## # ## ## ## ### ### +++###++ ++# #++ +++# #+++ +###+ +++ +++ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
> > I believe having a lot of packages (without allowing redundant > > packages) would be good, even if some of them are not as properly > > maintained as they could be. I would rather have 3 ISOs of very > > properly maintained software + 4 ISOs of averagely maintained packages > > + 4 ISOs of sparringly maintained software than just 3 ISOs of very > > properly maintained software. I feel that allowing relatively unused > > I wonder why you are mentioning ISOs ? I mention ISOs because I was replying to a message where someone was complaining about having 432 ISOs as part of OpenSUSE. Replace ISO for "RPM" and multiply the number by the average number of RPMs that fit on a CD in my post and my general idea would continue to apply. > Besides that, as you have read the threads about it, I suppose that > you also noticed the complexity involved with how to best implement > that process. We still have to discuss a lot to get there, we'll > eventually do, and then maybe one could think about a process to > integrate some of those packages into SUSE Linux. But that decision > must be left to Novell alone. I agree that this is a very complex process! That, however, shouldn't make us put off discussing it and actually implementing it. But yes, I can wait (until 10.0 is out). :) > Let's first try to find the best ways of integrating 3rd party > repositories. I can agree with that. Why not take that a bit further and make some of those packages from 3rd party repositories official packages? And actually include them in ISOs? I, though, don't feel this is very urgent and would be satisfied with what I believe is likely to happen: Novell gradually starting to include high-quality third party packages into the base distribution. For example, if someone makes a high quality package (for a not previously packaged program) and it becomes popular, I fail to see a reason not to include that package in the ISOs... and in this case, I believe it would be a good option for Novell to work directly with the original packagers (assuming they have done a good work) rather than take over control of the package. > > In this case, if a package is poorly maintained, anyone should be > > allowed to contribute and help improve its quality. > > Sure. We can do that with 3rd party repositories, but not with ISOs. As I mentioned in my example, I don't see why high-quality packages from 3rd party repositories should be kept off the ISOs. > Is Debian offering installation support ? They're not. They most certainly are. Look at: http://www.debian.org/support If you are refering to commercial support, look at http://www.debian.org/consultants , which lists consultants in over 50 countries. As you can see, the procedures in place around Debian allow these consultants to offer commercial support around it, even though they control Debian, as a whole, much less than Novell controls SuSE (since they have to go through the regular procedures). > > [...] In their case, allowing anyone to create packages that are > > official part of the distribution has most certainly not decreased > > their overall quality. > > It's true that the Debian packages are very high quality. But AFAIK > that's because they're doing the exact opposite of what you're > saying: they have *official maintainers* that are in charge of > packages. They are *not* allowing "anyone" to create packages that > make it into the "official" Debian distribution. It's quite a long > and complex process of becoming an entitled official Debian package > maintainer, they raise the bar quite high for someone to get there, > and that's why they have good packages. They *do* allow anyone to become a package maintainer, as long as a process is followed. You can see more information about it here: http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/index.en.html They do allow anyone to become a Debian Developer! Anyone can create packages, by following a process and becoming what you're calling “official maintainers”. Sure, the process is slightly complex and long; they do "raise the bar", as you say. But it is an open and documented process that, if followed, allows you to directly participate on the construction of the distribution. It's much better than the “no, you can't do anything to control OpenSUSE in any way” approach. I was looking for something similar in OpenSUSE, which I suspect could also lead to us having packages of the quality that Debian users have come to expect. I suspected nothing like that did exist, so I wanted to get some reactions and see if we could start working on a proposal to allow third-party developers (like me; even though I do work in Novell, I would like my affiliation to OpenSUSE to be on exactly the same terms as that of third-party developers) to directly participate in building OpenSuSE. > > In my case I would package the Chicken Scheme compiler (along with > > many extensions) and the Ion window manager. Sure, they
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: ... > I believe having a lot of packages (without allowing redundant > packages) would be good, even if some of them are not as properly > maintained as they could be. I would rather have 3 ISOs of very > properly maintained software + 4 ISOs of averagely maintained packages > + 4 ISOs of sparringly maintained software than just 3 ISOs of very > properly maintained software. I feel that allowing relatively unused I wonder why you are mentioning ISOs ? I think the top priority should be to discuss how we could integrate 3rd party package repositories (like Packman, James Ogley's, various suser-* on gwdg.de, mine, ...) into the distribution, /not/ into ISOs but e.g. offer them as a choice list of installation sources in YaST2, aggregate information about them in the opensuse.org site, through a common build infrastructure, common policies, etc... I think that putting them into ISOs is definately not a good idea, as that isn't flexible enough. Furthermore, the added value of our 3rd party repositories is two-fold: 1) offer packages that are not included in SUSE Linux (although it already includes a lot of packages) 2) offer newer releases of packages that are included in SUSE Linux, as SUSE/Novell's policy is to stick with the version that's shipped with a release and only provide security fixes (that are usually backported) Although openSUSE is the effort to create a strong community around the SUSE Linux distribution and that we're all looking forward to work together on that, the ISOs and the boxed set are still "SUSE Linux" (OSS or not) and that's Novell/SUSE's reputation. Like Scott already said, Novell should not have to be liable (in terms of support) or have its name put on the packages made by others. Besides that, as you have read the threads about it, I suppose that you also noticed the complexity involved with how to best implement that process. We still have to discuss a lot to get there, we'll eventually do, and then maybe one could think about a process to integrate some of those packages into SUSE Linux. But that decision must be left to Novell alone. Even if you name the ISOs "unsupported", most people will say that SUSE Linux s**ks because there were broken packages on it. Let's first try to find the best ways of integrating 3rd party repositories. > packages into the distribution would be benefical, at least better > than not including them at all. I don't see any reasons why the > quality of the "3 ISOs of very properly maintained software" would > diminish by allowing the rest of the packages into the distribution. > In this case, if a package is poorly maintained, anyone should be > allowed to contribute and help improve its quality. Sure. We can do that with 3rd party repositories, but not with ISOs. > Oh, and we could use tools similar to Debian's popularity contest to > decide how to place our RPMs in our ISOs (probably marking the less > important ISOs as "additional" or "optional"). No, you can't compare Debian with Novell here. The decision of what makes it into the SUSE Linux distribution should (and shall) remain with Novell. Is Debian offering installation support ? They're not. > Certainly, I'm not advocating letting anyone put up random crap and > making it part of the distribution! I think there are many > alternatives less extreme than the "Novell remains in control" > approach. Novell remains in control of the SUSE Linux distribution. That's fine and has already been discussed a little. Let them do (almost) whatever it takes to keep on providing us with the solid distribution SUSE Linux has always been. And let us as a community build (almost) whatever we want on top of and around that. You could make your /own/ distribution based on SUSE Linux OSS + integrate packages from other repositories (like Packman or mine) into ISOs. That's fine, nothing wrong with that. > Althoug I use SLES, SUSE Pro and NLD almost every day, I've been a > long time Debian user: my perception is that most of their packages > are of *very* *good* quality (it should be said that I have very > little familiarity with Fedora). In their case, allowing anyone to > create packages that are official part of the distribution has most > certainly not decreased their overall quality. It's true that the Debian packages are very high quality. But AFAIK that's because they're doing the exact opposite of what you're saying: they have *official maintainers* that are in charge of packages. They are *not* allowing "anyone" to create packages that make it into the "official" Debian distribution. It's quite a long and complex process of becoming an entitled official Debian package maintainer, they raise the bar quite high for someone to get there, and that's why they have good packages. > In my case I would package the Chicken Scheme compiler (along with > many extensions) and the Ion window man
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Sunday 11 September 2005 7:57 pm, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > > I fail to see how having an additional set of CDs, marked as > "additional" or "optional" would hurt you: you'd get exactly the same > CDs, with exactly the same quality, plus an additional set of > "optional" or "additional" CDs with additional packages. > It's not really a question of it 'hurting me', it's more a matter of maintaining the image of the distro, especially the box version that one is actually paying out hard cash to obtain. As I said earlier, I would not object to a repository that contained '3rd party' packages that SUSE makes no claim of any responsibility. But the stuff I receive on the media in the box set implies, at least to me, that it meets SUSE's quality standards and has passed QC, so I can trust that I will encounter no issues using any packages on that media. > Just in case you got the right idea, I am in no way advocating that > broken / low low quality packages into SuSE! As I said, I am > advocating alternatives that would get us plently of relatively > good-quality packages in the distribution. Broken or low low quality > packages should be removed. As I said, the "only Novell decides what > goes in" approach is way too extreme. Sorry, but I don't see how that would work. You say 'broken or low quality packages would be removed', well who does that? It's SUSE's name on the distro, in order to even know a package is broken, they would have to QC it, incurring that expense. Why should they bother? > > For example, I plan to make a few of my own that I think have very > very little chances of ending up "broken or low low quality". With > the current approach, these get locked out of the official > distribution. > I think that is asking too much of SUSE to track and figure out what is broken and what is low quality. > I would hold Novell 100% responsible for the SuSE Linux release but I > would be inclined to allow more participation in the SuSE Linux OSS > products (which I think would end up being of very good quality > overall anyway). Hey, I have absolutely no objection to having 3rd party stuff on a downloadable ISO or a repository online somewhere. I just think that loading up the official boxed set distro with a bunch of extra stuff unnecessarily increases the cost of producing the product and would confuse (and potentially infuriate if they were broken) new users who already have package overload. Not trying to argue or anything, just presenting a user perspective on what it means to the user when they lay out cash for a boxed set. I know I expect things to just work, that's why I pay for it. Scott -- POPFile, the OpenSource EMail Classifier http://popfile.sourceforge.net/ Linux 2.6.11.4-21.9-default x86_64 SuSE Linux 9.3 (x86-64) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Sunday 11 September 2005 09:57 pm, Scott Leighton wrote: > On Sunday 11 September 2005 6:53 pm, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > > I've been reading most of the thread on package creation and trust > > and I still think we should be considering a different approach of > > allowing direct involvement and participation of third parties on > > the construction of OpenSUSE. > > > > I believe having a lot of packages (without allowing redundant > > packages) would be good, even if some of them are not as properly > > maintained as they could be. > >Well, as an end-user my perspective differs. I plan to buy the > box set when it comes out in October. As far as I'm concerned, > the quality of the packages is a direct reflection on Novell/SUSE. > If there are broken or low low quality packages, it will reflect > poorly on Novell/SUSE. > > Now, if you are simply talking about making a repository of > packages available (but not on the official DVD/CD's I buy > from SUSE), then that's a different matter, but if it's in > the boxed set I buy, SUSE is 100% responsible in my > mind. I don't think it would be a good business decision > to allow any low quality items into the official distro. > >Scott == I think I would have to agree with Scott here Alejandro. If you want to keep it just Linux and out of reach for many users/converts, doing things as you describe, would be an excellent method. Debian is stable because it uses solid, stable versions of the programs released for Linux, but they are also older and dated. Debian is also one of the more difficult distros to install and maintain, even for users already acclimated to Linux. That's not to say Debian doesn't have it's place, but it's not something that will convince users to move to Linux. You look at the whole thing as an experienced user having probably used Linux for quite a long time, right? You need to step back and take another look at what needs to be done to encourage computer users to take the plunge. In this case, many times less is more. Most users don't need 10 word processors or 5 browsers, etc., so why inundate them with so much? There are those of us that love this stuff though, as I'm sure you are one, so I'm happy that SuSE provides them to us. But when there are already plenty provided that are more heavily requested, why add more that are not? I haven't understood why Krusader hasn't been included in the package either, but it's a simple compile and easy to add for me. As long as the tools are made available to us to accomplish these things, shouldn't that be enough? If you have a desire for other things, start your own repository of files approved for SuSE install, as Scott mentioned. That would be the best way for users to have access to those things, if they want/need them, don't you think? I, like Scott, expect a certain amount of bleeding edge, but I also expect a stable setup as well. If you check around, I think you will find that is something many Windows users are tired of, the unstable nature of the OS. I don't think we want to give them another, that's even more difficult to install and maintain. end of line Lee - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
> As far as I'm concerned, the quality of the packages is a direct > reflection on Novell/SUSE. If there are broken or low low quality > packages, it will reflect poorly on Novell/SUSE. > > Now, if you are simply talking about making a repository of packages > available (but not on the official DVD/CD's I buy from SUSE), then > that's a different matter, but if it's in the boxed set I buy, SUSE > is 100% responsible in my mind. I don't think it would be a good > business decision to allow any low quality items into the official > distro. I fail to see how having an additional set of CDs, marked as "additional" or "optional" would hurt you: you'd get exactly the same CDs, with exactly the same quality, plus an additional set of "optional" or "additional" CDs with additional packages. Just in case you got the right idea, I am in no way advocating that broken / low low quality packages into SuSE! As I said, I am advocating alternatives that would get us plently of relatively good-quality packages in the distribution. Broken or low low quality packages should be removed. As I said, the "only Novell decides what goes in" approach is way too extreme. For example, I plan to make a few of my own that I think have very very little chances of ending up "broken or low low quality". With the current approach, these get locked out of the official distribution. I would hold Novell 100% responsible for the SuSE Linux release but I would be inclined to allow more participation in the SuSE Linux OSS products (which I think would end up being of very good quality overall anyway). Thanks. Alejo. http://azul.freaks-unidos.net/ ---=( Comunidad de Usuarios de Software Libre en Colombia )=--- ---=( http://bachue.com/colibri )=--=( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )=--- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Sunday 11 September 2005 6:53 pm, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > I've been reading most of the thread on package creation and trust and > I still think we should be considering a different approach of > allowing direct involvement and participation of third parties on the > construction of OpenSUSE. > > I believe having a lot of packages (without allowing redundant > packages) would be good, even if some of them are not as properly > maintained as they could be. Well, as an end-user my perspective differs. I plan to buy the box set when it comes out in October. As far as I'm concerned, the quality of the packages is a direct reflection on Novell/SUSE. If there are broken or low low quality packages, it will reflect poorly on Novell/SUSE. Now, if you are simply talking about making a repository of packages available (but not on the official DVD/CD's I buy from SUSE), then that's a different matter, but if it's in the boxed set I buy, SUSE is 100% responsible in my mind. I don't think it would be a good business decision to allow any low quality items into the official distro. Scott -- POPFile, the OpenSource EMail Classifier http://popfile.sourceforge.net/ Linux 2.6.11.4-21.9-default x86_64 SuSE Linux 9.3 (x86-64) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
I've been reading most of the thread on package creation and trust and I still think we should be considering a different approach of allowing direct involvement and participation of third parties on the construction of OpenSUSE. I believe having a lot of packages (without allowing redundant packages) would be good, even if some of them are not as properly maintained as they could be. I would rather have 3 ISOs of very properly maintained software + 4 ISOs of averagely maintained packages + 4 ISOs of sparringly maintained software than just 3 ISOs of very properly maintained software. I feel that allowing relatively unused packages into the distribution would be benefical, at least better than not including them at all. I don't see any reasons why the quality of the "3 ISOs of very properly maintained software" would diminish by allowing the rest of the packages into the distribution. In this case, if a package is poorly maintained, anyone should be allowed to contribute and help improve its quality. Oh, and we could use tools similar to Debian's popularity contest to decide how to place our RPMs in our ISOs (probably marking the less important ISOs as "additional" or "optional"). Certainly, I'm not advocating letting anyone put up random crap and making it part of the distribution! I think there are many alternatives less extreme than the "Novell remains in control" approach. Althoug I use SLES, SUSE Pro and NLD almost every day, I've been a long time Debian user: my perception is that most of their packages are of *very* *good* quality (it should be said that I have very little familiarity with Fedora). In their case, allowing anyone to create packages that are official part of the distribution has most certainly not decreased their overall quality. In my case I would package the Chicken Scheme compiler (along with many extensions) and the Ion window manager. Sure, they are relatively unpopular, but having them part of the distribution would surely make the life of those who depend on them easier. With the current approach, I can't see any reasons why third-party developers would prefer to participate in (i.e. create packages for, promote, etc.) OpenSuSE rather than a distribution such as Debian, where they can become directly involved (as long as the specified procedures are followed). The reason I ask this is because, being a Novell employee, I am genuinously concerned with the future of OpenSUSE and I think its chances of success would be greater with a different approach. I know most of the Novell guys at SuSE are currently occupied with getting the 10.0 release out, but I find this issue far more important. It's a shame I couldn't jump into the discussion earlier. Thanks. Alejo. http://azul.freaks-unidos.net/ ---=( Comunidad de Usuarios de Software Libre en Colombia )=--- ---=( http://bachue.com/colibri )=--=( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )=--- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > > > We are interested in creating a centralized repository of packaged > > > software following some guidelines/policies to integrate properly, > > > right? > > > > Yes, I guess we all agree! For now I'd just like to point out one > > thing: Please drop the idea of one centralized distribution that > > everyone is trying to get changes / packages in. I know that this > > sound very strange at first, but it will be fundamental for the future > > success of openSUSE! > > Hmm, I'm not sure I follow you. Why should we drop this idea? And why > is droping it fundamental for the future success of OpenSUSE? Robert and Daniel already gave great summaries of why this makes sense - there isn't much I could add to it right now ;) > Isn't this, to allow participation from everyone in building SuSE (in, > among others, the form of changes / packages), the point of OpenSUSE? Yes, but the idea of distributed / parallel distribution development contrary to a centralized approach doesn't prevent anyone from participating. Actually I guess it will rather make a much broader participance possible! But again, it will definitely take some time to get there... Regards Christoph - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
The SUSE Super project is a perfect example of this concept... Why isn't everybody willing to contribute to that one or create their own project? There could be a SUSE Multimedia Project, a SUSE JFS Project, a SUSE WhateverYouWant Project... it all depends on you guys... Daniel Daniel Secareanu wrote: I guess people haven't yet figured it out that is the other way around from what they expect. Novell/SUSE has opened SUSE Linux for you to do whatever you want with it for yourself. This means you have access to that technology for your playground... It doesn't mean that you can move your playground inside Novell/SUSE... It means you can take OpenSUSE and create your own SUSE Linux, but not enforce your personal wishes and desires upon Novell/SUSE... If the Novell/SUSE guys think any of your proposals make sense and your packages are worth inserting in the professional distros, they will do so... Until then, the toys are yours to play with... just don't force Novell/SUSE to like your toys :) they are definitely looking at them, if that's your concern... Daniel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
I guess people haven't yet figured it out that is the other way around from what they expect. Novell/SUSE has opened SUSE Linux for you to do whatever you want with it for yourself. This means you have access to that technology for your playground... It doesn't mean that you can move your playground inside Novell/SUSE... It means you can take OpenSUSE and create your own SUSE Linux, but not enforce your personal wishes and desires upon Novell/SUSE... If the Novell/SUSE guys think any of your proposals make sense and your packages are worth inserting in the professional distros, they will do so... Until then, the toys are yours to play with... just don't force Novell/SUSE to like your toys :) they are definitely looking at them, if that's your concern... Daniel Robert Schiele wrote: On Fri, Sep 09, 2005 at 10:51:11AM -0500, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: Isn't this, to allow participation from everyone in building SuSE (in, among others, the form of changes / packages), the point of OpenSUSE? It is to allow everybody to build everything he wants _using_ SUSE and (if he likes) sharing this with others. If you have a centralized approach everything that will happen is that everybody tries to push his pet project into the "official" SUSE resulting in a 423 ISOs distribution with terabytes of stuff nobody actually needs. Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Fri, Sep 09, 2005 at 10:51:11AM -0500, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > > Yes, I guess we all agree! For now I'd just like to point out one thing: > > Please drop the idea of one centralized distribution that everyone is > > trying to get changes / packages in. I know that this sound very strange > > at first, but it will be fundamental for the future success of openSUSE! > > Hmm, I'm not sure I follow you. Why should we drop this idea? And > why is droping it fundamental for the future success of OpenSUSE? Because it just does not scale. People expect from their distribution: - quality, - completeness, and - up-to-dateness but with a limiting bottleneck you can only solve two of these three goals. > Isn't this, to allow participation from everyone in building SuSE (in, > among others, the form of changes / packages), the point of OpenSUSE? It is to allow everybody to build everything he wants _using_ SUSE and (if he likes) sharing this with others. If you have a centralized approach everything that will happen is that everybody tries to push his pet project into the "official" SUSE resulting in a 423 ISOs distribution with terabytes of stuff nobody actually needs. Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpeRIubWKTm0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
> > We are interested in creating a centralized repository of packaged > > software following some guidelines/policies to integrate properly, > > right? > > Yes, I guess we all agree! For now I'd just like to point out one thing: > Please drop the idea of one centralized distribution that everyone is > trying to get changes / packages in. I know that this sound very strange > at first, but it will be fundamental for the future success of openSUSE! Hmm, I'm not sure I follow you. Why should we drop this idea? And why is droping it fundamental for the future success of OpenSUSE? Isn't this, to allow participation from everyone in building SuSE (in, among others, the form of changes / packages), the point of OpenSUSE? Confused, Alejo. http://azul.freaks-unidos.net/ ---=( Comunidad de Usuarios de Software Libre en Colombia )=--- ---=( http://bachue.com/colibri )=--=( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )=--- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Pascal Bleser wrote: [...] > Note that we're currently more or less waiting for the SUSE staff to > release 10.0 final to have them actively involved into that topic. Let's > just give them some time to concentrate on giving us the best SUSE Linux > that has ever been ;) Pascal, great point! ;) Regards Christoph - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > I've briefly looked at it and it seems to only explain how to build the > RPM packages. What I'm looking for is a guide explaining the procedures > that I need to follow in order to get my packages (the RPMs I build > following the steps in SUSE_Build_Tutorial) to become part of OpenSUSE > (instead of third-party packages). What do I need to do in order for my > packages to become part of OpenSUSE (e.g. distributed in the OpenSUSE > ISO files, listed in the official package listings, etc.)? There isn't an "official guideline", as we don't have the storied "openSUSE build infrastructure" in place yet. For now the only way to go would be to file an enhancement request in bugzilla an attach your specfiles to it. If we like the package and want to have it in SUSE Linux, we might take up your work, review it and put it into in. Note: This is the current way to go - this will change dramatically in the future. > We are interested in creating a centralized repository of packaged > software following some guidelines/policies to integrate properly, > right? Yes, I guess we all agree! For now I'd just like to point out one thing: Please drop the idea of one centralized distribution that everyone is trying to get changes / packages in. I know that this sound very strange at first, but it will be fundamental for the future success of openSUSE! Regards Christoph - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: >>> Also, are there some guidelines/policies to standarize the behaviour >>> of packages in OpenSuSE? >> http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfref_library/detail.php?tab=doc&reference_id=1544&group=1367 > Thanks! I'll take a look. >>> Could someone please point out where can I find a document describing >>> the steps I need to follow in order to build a package >> http://www.opensuse.org/SUSE_Build_Tutorial > Thanks for that URL too. > > I've briefly looked at it and it seems to only explain how to build > the RPM packages. What I'm looking for is a guide explaining the > procedures that I need to follow in order to get my packages (the RPMs > I build following the steps in SUSE_Build_Tutorial) to become part of > OpenSUSE (instead of third-party packages). What do I need to do in > order for my packages to become part of OpenSUSE (e.g. distributed in > the OpenSUSE ISO files, listed in the official package listings, > etc.)? We have started to discuss that but we're still far(?) away from having real solutions and thought out concepts on how to do that. Please read the quite long thread about that here in the archives: http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse/2005-Sep/0200.html > We are interested in creating a centralized repository of packaged > software following some guidelines/policies to integrate properly, > right? Yes we are. Please read the email thread above and you'll see that it isn't an easy task but we've started to think about it ;) Thanks to Andreas Girardet's work, the following wiki page also summarizes most of what has been discussed so far: http://www.opensuse.org/Packager Note that we're currently more or less waiting for the SUSE staff to release 10.0 final to have them actively involved into that topic. Let's just give them some time to concentrate on giving us the best SUSE Linux that has ever been ;) Get involved in the discussion as soon as we start picking it up again. Of course, you may also post your ideas, comments or whatever right now, but it would be a lot more useful in a very few weeks' time. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> _\_v ===> FOSDEM 2006 -- February 2006 in Brussels <=== -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDIaAJr3NMWliFcXcRAvRWAKCSrC4bgVTu13Cl5H01MGlgnQENfQCfX50H oz3GQ4AqVz51HWOhpScqBkg= =DEn8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
Hi. > > Also, are there some guidelines/policies to standarize the behaviour > > of packages in OpenSuSE? > > http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfref_library/detail.php?tab=doc&reference_id=1544&group=1367 Thanks! I'll take a look. > > Could someone please point out where can I find a document describing > > the steps I need to follow in order to build a package > > http://www.opensuse.org/SUSE_Build_Tutorial Thanks for that URL too. I've briefly looked at it and it seems to only explain how to build the RPM packages. What I'm looking for is a guide explaining the procedures that I need to follow in order to get my packages (the RPMs I build following the steps in SUSE_Build_Tutorial) to become part of OpenSUSE (instead of third-party packages). What do I need to do in order for my packages to become part of OpenSUSE (e.g. distributed in the OpenSUSE ISO files, listed in the official package listings, etc.)? We are interested in creating a centralized repository of packaged software following some guidelines/policies to integrate properly, right? Thanks! :) Alejo. http://azul.freaks-unidos.net/ ---=( Comunidad de Usuarios de Software Libre en Colombia )=--- ---=( http://bachue.com/colibri )=--=( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )=--- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... > Subject: Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE > > I have a question that I am sure if for lack of education. > I have a "source" rpm package that I need to modify (i.e. change some of > the "c" programs). ... On 9/8/05, Schwartz, Matthew (GE Healthcare) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Frist you need to install the source SRPM > > Rpm -ivh filename.srpm > > Then edit the c code > > Then rebuild the rpm > > Rpmbuild -ba filename.spec Take advantage of RPM's "patch" functionality. Using this method, your modifications are supplied as a separate file(s) within the source RPM. These files are then used to automatically patch the "official" source at build time. A quick net search will give you more information on how to do this. In addition, you may want to check out the SUSE Package Conventions available at http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfref_library/detail.php?tab=doc&reference_id=1544&group=1367 - Paul - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
Frist you need to install the source SRPM
Rpm -ivh filename.srpm
Then edit the c code
Then rebuild the rpm
Rpmbuild -ba filename.spec
Matthew
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 11:09 AM
To: opensuse@opensuse.org
Subject: Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
I have a question that I am sure if for lack of education.
I have a "source" rpm package that I need to modify (i.e. change some of
the "c" programs).
How can I make changes to the source (I know, use the editor but keep
reading) and still make sure that my "rpm" is valid?
How can I then generate a binary RPM ready for distribution? can I use yast
for this purpose? or is it some rpm commands?
Regards,
Uriel
greetings / avec mes meilleures salutations / Cordialmente
mit freundlichen Grüßen / Med vänlig hälsning
"Andreas
Girardet"To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]cc:
.com> Subject: Re: [opensuse]
Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
09/08/2005 10:20
AM
Please respond to
opensuse
FYI
http://www.opensuse.org/SUSE_Build_Tutorial
-
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Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
On Thursday 08 September 2005 10:08 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I have a question that I am sure if for lack of education. > I have a "source" rpm package that I need to modify (i.e. change some of > the "c" programs). > How can I make changes to the source (I know, use the editor but keep > reading) and still make sure that my "rpm" is valid? > How can I then generate a binary RPM ready for distribution? can I use yast > for this purpose? or is it some rpm commands? I have found this RPM tutorial to be quite good... http://www.gurulabs.com/GURULABS-RPM-LAB/GURULABS-RPM-GUIDE-v1.0.PDF - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
I have a question that I am sure if for lack of education.
I have a "source" rpm package that I need to modify (i.e. change some of
the "c" programs).
How can I make changes to the source (I know, use the editor but keep
reading) and still make sure that my "rpm" is valid?
How can I then generate a binary RPM ready for distribution? can I use yast
for this purpose? or is it some rpm commands?
Regards,
Uriel
greetings / avec mes meilleures salutations / Cordialmente
mit freundlichen Grüßen / Med vänlig hälsning
"Andreas
Girardet"To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]cc:
.com> Subject: Re: [opensuse]
Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
09/08/2005 10:20
AM
Please respond to
opensuse
FYI
http://www.opensuse.org/SUSE_Build_Tutorial
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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message may be an attorney-client communication and/or work product and
as such is privileged and confidential. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it
to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have
received this document in error and that any review, dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
by e-mail, and delete the original message.
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Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
Hi, On Thursday, September 08, 2005 at 09:07:41, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote: > Could someone please point out where can I find a document describing > the steps I need to follow in order to build a package http://www.opensuse.org/SUSE_Build_Tutorial > Also, are there some guidelines/policies to standarize the behaviour > of packages in OpenSuSE? http://forge.novell.com/modules/xfref_library/detail.php?tab=doc&reference_id=1544&group=1367 Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Subsystems "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
FYI http://www.opensuse.org/SUSE_Build_Tutorial - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse] Creating new packages for OpenSuSE
Hello. Could someone please point out where can I find a document describing the steps I need to follow in order to build a package and make it part of OpenSuSE? I'm interested in packaging some programs that I need which haven't been packaged as part of SuSE as far as I can tell; I would start with the Ion window manager and Chicken Scheme interpreter/compiler. Also, are there some guidelines/policies to standarize the behaviour of packages in OpenSuSE? Thanks! Alejo. http://azul.freaks-unidos.net/ ---=( Comunidad de Usuarios de Software Libre en Colombia )=--- ---=( http://bachue.com/colibri )=--=( [EMAIL PROTECTED] )=--- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
