Re: [opensuse-factory] Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2
* houghi [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Jul 12. 2006 16:13]: 3) General notes. As far as I understand, I could just add OOo and then during installation will install all dependencies? Yes. What happens when I then want to deinstall OOo? Will it recognise the extra things it installed, or will that still be left behind? For (rpm) packages, just the package will be removed. For patterns, we're looking for proposals on how to do it. We would like to handle patterns as 'groups' so when you remove a pattern all members of that group are removed as well. But such semantics might not be intuitive. Consider the following case: You're using (maybe unwittingly) a specific functionality/application on a regular basis. Over time, your systems gets crowded and you decide to clean it up a bit. You do this by removing 'unneeded' patterns. Afterwards your above mentioned application is gone and you might not know to which pattern it belonged (or which package it was). Klaus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2
* James Oakley [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Jul 12. 2006 16:44]: You could also use this to select tasks independently of the desktop environment. If you select Productivity/Chat and you have KDE and GNOME selected, you would get Konversation and XChat, but if you just have KDE, you would just get Konversation. Thats already possible with patterns. I think that could be very powerful. :-) Klaus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2
* jdd [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Jul 12. 2006 21:04]: Klaus Kaempf wrote: Packages listed in selection are all required weak. Removal of such a package does not warn you about invalidating a selection. are you sure of that? Yes. ;-) I just installed a 10.0 to make tests for minisuse, I browsed all installed packages for minimal install and removed a lot of (small) packages really unusefull. At the end I was faced with a screen giving a list of needed packages with no possibility to don't install them, some as important as alsa, checkmedia or gnome-filesystem (on a terminal only system!). Thats a bug in the 10.0 implementation. It goes through all to-be-installed selections and installs their packages. You have to set the packages to 'taboo' to prevent this. In fact I see just now that I can uninstall them after install... Thats what I meant. And uninstalling all packages of a selection leaves the selection installed ... Klaus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2
* houghi [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Jul 14. 2006 11:53]: On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 11:26:41AM +0200, Klaus Kaempf wrote: You're using (maybe unwittingly) a specific functionality/application on a regular basis. Over time, your systems gets crowded and you decide to clean it up a bit. You do this by removing 'unneeded' patterns. Afterwards your above mentioned application is gone and you might not know to which pattern it belonged (or which package it was). Won't there still be th possability to install (and remove) individual packages? Of course there will. So when I remove unneeded patters and then decide I still want package X, I should be able to just install package X with 'search'. Sure. But you have to know the X. If you just deal with patterns, the X might not be obvious. Klaus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse-announce] SUSE Linux 10.2 Alpha2 Release - and distribution rename
On Thu, Jul 13, 2006 at 10:27:38PM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote: Torsdag 13 juli 2006 13:49 skrev houghi: Great news. Not so much the name, but taking away the confusion. You think this will end confusion? No. It will lessen the confusion. - Many of us have been trying to explain to people that the distro is SUSE Linux for the last 10 months. These people are going to be confused. The fact that we needed to explain should be a HUGE hint of how confusing it was. The majority of users still can't get it right. - Many people have been running SUSE Linux for years, but don't follow the news - they're going to be confused when they go to the store and the retail box says openSUSE. No, they won't. If they have been running SUSE for years, they will have at least heard the name openSUSE and the link with SUSE and Novell. What you sugest is the same as saying people might be confused about the Novell logo on SUSE. - I already anticipate a lot of people being confused about non-oss being available on the openSUSE dvd (assuming that'll still be the case on 10.2). And we'll still have to do a lot of explaining. Most people will expect that open means pure open source. Well, if such confusion would exist, we would have heard a LOT about it right now, as that is how the system already works in 10.1. The few pwople who are realy concerned by the complete openness or not of a distro will not buy it because it says open in the name. - There's a huge infrastructure of forums, websites, irc-channels etc. that will be obsoleted and have to change their names. Probably some of those won't change their domain name - that will cause confusion too. Ever heard of re-directions? - On the short term any name change will cause confusion - after all most people know that SUSE Linux is the correct name. It won't be the correct name after 10.2 Beta 3. And don't you remember the days that is was called S.u.S.E, or SuSE or just SUSE instead of SUSE Linux? Besides this namechange makes me feel like SLED/S is the real SUSE - and SL/openSUSE is lowest priority (kind of the same feeling I had when the package management changes were forced through after feature freeze), I expect a lot of other people will also see this as a sign of SL getting lower priority - which can harm the distro. The fact that people see this difference is already happening. I hear people taling about buying SLED instead of downloading 10.1 for whatever reason. I can not understand why that is a bad thing. Giving money to the people who develope openSUSE can not be a bad thing. I just hope that all of that extra money flows back to the developers. :-) Also hereby a lot of the history that SUSE name had is lost. The name is also too long. In other words - I don't like it. Ah, now we are at the real issue. You don't like it. Well, I don't like it either, yet it is the best option in this situation. Furthermore the namechange will steal attention from the community project. People will think openSUSE is just the name of the distro - and noone will know or care about the project. I doubt it. I think it will draw MORE attention to the site and therefore more people will be learning about openSUSE. Then it is up to us (not Novell) to make it interesting enough for people to hang on. On that note, I hope Firefox and other browsers will point to openSUSE by default intead of Novell.com ALL the people I know who actually use SUSE would have preferred to keep that name. All the people I know who likes openSUSE don't know what it's about - and don't use SUSE Linux. ALL the people I know who use SUSE AND the people I see posting prefere openSUSE. All the other people are confused by the two names gfor what they think is the same thing. All in all I think this decision is made 100% for the benefit of SLED/S - with little or no consideration for the many, many loyal and active SUSE Linux users. I again fail to see how this should be a bad thing. More money means ongoing developement for openSUSE. Current mood: Don't know whether to cry or break something. For me the cuurent mode is a hangover, but that has nothing to do with SUSE or openSUSE. On that matter I am happy. To be fair I do see some benefits: - Maybe now we can have everything on one server - unlike both ftp.opensuse.org and ftp.suse.com Also, yes. - A lot of people seem to like the name - hence it's been so damn hard trying to explain to these goofballs it's not the name of the distro. Why would all these goofballs need this explanation? If you need explaining something that abovious over and over again, then perhaps the goofballs are on to something. At first I also thought openSUSE was the name of the new distro and you can look it up how often I went into discussion that the distro was NOT openSUSE but SUSE. However I believe most of these people liked the name because they thought that openSUSE was non-Novell and
Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse-announce] SUSE Linux 10.2 Alpha2 Release - and distribution rename
houghi wrote: On Thu, Jul 13, 2006 at 01:21:03PM +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote: It's downloadable from today on and will be the last community/consumer distribution called SUSE Linux. We'll rename SUSE Linux into openSUSE. Great news. Not so much the name, but taking away the confusion. right. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2
Klaus Kaempf wrote: Thats a bug in the 10.0 implementation. right now I use 10.0 because I can't save the selection with 10.1 jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2
Hi, Andreas Jaeger schrieb: * Patterns define a functionality the system should have. This is indeed a currently missing feature. But it would be nice to have a more abstract definition of functionality - for example, a pattern should be able to say the user needs a PDF viewer and not the user needs xpdf. Currently, when selecting GNOME during installation and using the Add-On product, I get three PDF viewers: xpdf from the base X selection, evince from the GNOME selection and acroread from the Add-On product. Packages could provide a virtual symbol describing their functionality, every desktop-related pattern should require this virtual symbol and the package manager should be able to decide which one of the available alternatives matches the selected pattern in the best way. Andreas Hanke - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2
* Andreas Hanke [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Jul 14. 2006 17:13]: Hi, Andreas Jaeger schrieb: * Patterns define a functionality the system should have. This is indeed a currently missing feature. But it would be nice to have a more abstract definition of functionality - for example, a pattern should be able to say the user needs a PDF viewer and not the user needs xpdf. Agreed. pdf viewer is the pattern, xpdf is the package. Patterns are meant to be an abstraction from packages. So having a xpdf pattern is certainly wrong, pdf viewer is the right pattern name. Currently, when selecting GNOME during installation and using the Add-On product, I get three PDF viewers: xpdf from the base X selection, evince from the GNOME selection and acroread from the Add-On product. Parts of that are already implemented and working. Packages could provide a virtual symbol describing their functionality, every desktop-related pattern should require this virtual symbol and the package manager should be able to decide which one of the available alternatives matches the selected pattern in the best way. Thats probably too much work for package maintainers. And for most functionalities, there is typically a single 'preferred' implementation (== package) and possible alternative implementation. For the functionality mail-transfer-agent, 'postfix' is (currently) the preferred and 'sendmail', 'qmail', etc. are the alternative implementations. But the package-pattern relation is expressed in the pattern, not in the package. For user environments, things are a bit more complicated. The functionality mailer might be 'mutt' for the console, 'kmail' for KDE, and 'evolution' for GNOME. The 'mail program' pattern depends on the choosen user environment and must be calculated. The current pattern implementation supports this already. Klaus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2
Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Klaus Kaempf wrote: Thats a bug in the 10.0 implementation. right now I use 10.0 because I can't save the selection with 10.1 Saving and retreiving selections is close to the top of my list of things missing. Top is the package management then this feature. it's not very important for me, for the moment I just test some ideas I really like the new Package Group with patterns. I find it to be really exciting. I have two meanings on this one: * It's a very good idea, it will solve most of my problems choosing packages for minisuse (busybox is included by default in suse instal, should be nice to remove all the stuff it can replace :-) - just an example. * this can be very powerfull, but for the very same reason must be very carefully examined. I wonder if it's not risky to 10.2 (don't do again the libzypp error), we must fine tune the definitions and scenarii before going to the implementation. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse-factory] Re: [opensuse-announce] SUSE Linux 10.2 Alpha2 Release - and distribution rename
Andreas Jaeger wrote: Therefor the upcoming community/consumer version will be named openSUSE 10.2 well... I just notice that this need a rewriting of the front page first paragraph. I don't see any way to make it work with simply replacing SUSE Linux by openSUSE. We must have a way to use the word Linux there :-) (may be: openSUSE is the best Linux...) sorry :-(( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse-factory] zen updater still broken :-((
I thought the zen-updater story was finished; but as the ze icon was still blue after some warning mails I launche YOU and got an upadte (all default, launch you, accept-got the upadte) is this known? what kind of bug can this be??? of course 10.1 regularly updated thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse-factory] Workaround for saving selections (was: Re: Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2)
Hello,
Am Freitag, 14. Juli 2006 17:02 schrieb jdd:
right now [...] I can't save the selection with 10.1
I posted a possible workaround to the suse-linux mailinglist some time
ago, maybe it helps ;-)
You can save the package list with
rpm -qa --queryformat %{name}\n paketliste
Copy the file paketliste to the target machine and install all listed
packages with
xargs yast2 -i paketliste
(Of course, you have to setup the installation sources in YaST before.)
To optimize the operation, remove the already installed packages from
the list:
rpm -qa --queryformat '%{name}\n' | grep -Fvxf - paketliste \
| xargs yast2 -i
Disclaimer: This is completely untested!
(If you test it, please report back ;-)
Regards,
Christian Boltz
--
We have a Reinheits-Gebot (pureness requirement) in Germany per law
for beer (showing that our politicians indeed know what they talk about
on this matter) [Eberhard Moenkeberg in opensuse]
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Re: [opensuse-factory] Workaround for saving selections (was: Re: Packagage Groupings - From Selections in 10.1 to Patterns in 10.2)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Am Freitag, 14. Juli 2006 17:02 schrieb jdd:
right now [...] I can't save the selection with 10.1
I posted a possible workaround to the suse-linux mailinglist some time
ago, maybe it helps ;-)
You can save the package list with
rpm -qa --queryformat %{name}\n paketliste
Copy the file paketliste to the target machine and install all listed
packages with
xargs yast2 -i paketliste
(Of course, you have to setup the installation sources in YaST before.)
To optimize the operation, remove the already installed packages from
the list:
rpm -qa --queryformat '%{name}\n' | grep -Fvxf - paketliste \
| xargs yast2 -i
That does give me a list. The way I use it is to get a system ready for
new HW.
dump to user.sel the current package selection based on the profiles.
For example I have
devuser.sel Development System
servuser.selServer System
deskuser.selDexktop System
miniuser.selMini Install System
alluser.sel All Options System
So this new idea of package groupings really matches the way I used the
dump feature and install of the OS. I am looking into autoyast but I must
admit I really liked the way it was in 10.0
So on new HW I would do a install and do a diff for the differences needed
for hardware and the type of profile I wanted.
diff -c user.sel devuser.sel patch.sel
I then edit patch.sel to remove duplicates.
Then
patch patch.sel
Then I would bring this list into yast package selections and go through
and add any new items from the new SUSE Linux version. Then dump this
file to a new profile.sel where profile is the type of user I want to
create. This made it really easy to roll out a New Installation of SUSE
Linux for the customer. I would then have an invoice like below after
receiving a retail box.
1. New Hardware
2. One box SUSE Linux X
3. Installation and custom setup charge.
Then I would later tell them(after using SUSE Linux and falling in love
with it) that if they want a good support and a 5 year window on the OS
they may/should purchase a SLES X. I would make sure they understand that
the 5 year window is from the first release of the product. For example
SLES 10 would be aprox Jul 06. This really worked. I am able to get them
used to SUSE Linux and see how it benefits them. Then move them to a
purchased support contract with Novell should any thing happen to me.
So I see this new package grouping as very positive. My only concern is
to avoid a problem like what happened with the package manager in 10.1.
Does it look like there is sufficent time to get a great product for 10.2?
Thanks,
- --
Boyd Gerber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047
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