Re: [opensuse-factory] New susegreeter / one-click help
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 To summarize what has been discussed during the IRC meeting: 1) It is unclear whether the greeter can be modified at this point, late in the 10.3 release cycle. Translators don't like the idea, will probably stay as it is now. 2) A *separate* "get help" desktop icon will be added, dedicated to getting online help to avoid suffering the dimension limitations of the greeter. 3) The label of the desktop icon is not decided. "Get help online" is a proposal. 4) The desktop icon will point to http://help.opensuse.org/, open konqueror or firefox when clicking on it, and content will hence be kept online. 5) Those help pages not being a local resource isn't an issue really, as all the ways to get help require an Internet connection anyway. 6) Being online, the resources are much easier to maintain and won't get blocked by the 10.3 feature freeze. 7) The HTML/CSS/PNG/... for http://help.opensuse.org will be maintained in a Subversion repository at Novell Forge: https://forgesvn1.novell.com/svn/opensuse/trunk/infrastructure/help.o.o 8) I will commit the current state of my implementation there this evening, after a little cleanup -- it's heavily based on the work of Francis Giannaros (just adds a second, intermediary screen for each option to provide some basic information about IRC, about web forums, etc...) 9) The current mockup can be seen here: http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/files/greeter/ (note that only the "Chat & Help" part is implemented as of now) 10) There's a bug to keep track of tasks and progress: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=300795 11) IRC meeting transcript on the topic is here: http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Status_Meeting_2007-08-15/transcript#Q_.26_A:_Greeter_and_.22get_help.22_icon And we'll probably be looking for translators as the translation team is already quite busy finishing 10.3. We also still have to discuss how to internationalize the pages. Several options are available: - - use browser language detection + have flags to switch the language on the HTML pages - - make different links depending on the language in the .desktop file (proposal by Stephan Binner): URL = http://help.opensuse.org/en/ URL[de] = http://help.opensuse.org/de/ URL[fr] = http://help.opensuse.org/fr/ ... IMHO, browser detection works fine. Question is what the default language of Konqueror and Firefox are (when it hasn't been set explicitly by the user in the browser configuration). Is it $LANG ? Or does it just default to en_US ? We probably won't be able to avoid little flags (or links) to explicitly choose the language though. Also, using server-side language detection from the browser's request avoids having to update the desktop link when another translation is added (because it's all kept on server side). cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGw/t/r3NMWliFcXcRAtAJAKC8Pgylx1B9Vg8nF79AjJ6Jy/cf8ACePYWY 5DsA9xSa8wyhJsbvumtB8W8= =Ur4t -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] New susegreeter / one-click help
> > http://bw.uwcs.co.uk/greeterIdea.png ]. Each Discover|Support|Create > > section could drill down into more detailed information, or perhaps > > different additional information could be displayed below depending on > > what the mouse hovered over. > > This is a fantastic example of what the greeter needs to be. Simple, > clear and something that everyone will look at... if only briefly... I second that (specially with text changin in the bottom while mouse passes the links, explaining briefly each section), but nobody gives a damn about that. Unfortunately. regards Marcio --- Druid - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] New susegreeter / one-click help
I am one of the multitude that is conditioned to simply close all the startup clutter. I rarely ever read the SUSE Greeter... I think I looked at it once... a couple of years ago. now it's an automatic click to close. I am not the only one. This is essentially the exact same knee-jerk reaction I see from most new users I help get started with openSUSE. The desktop starts up and it's click to close everything so they can "see" what they've got in this new Linux thing. > something a little more like the openSUSE.org homepage [ > http://bw.uwcs.co.uk/greeterIdea.png ]. Each Discover|Support|Create > section could drill down into more detailed information, or perhaps > different additional information could be displayed below depending on > what the mouse hovered over. This is a fantastic example of what the greeter needs to be. Simple, clear and something that everyone will look at... if only briefly... which is all it takes to spark interest. A box with a few hundred words is generally ignored. The simple graphic is so much more effective (a pain to translate though). OK, late now... but there's always 10.4 I guess. :-) C. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] New susegreeter / one-click help
Michael Loeffler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > ccing Karl as he's doing the translation coordination. I don't know how far > he's already on the greeter and if there is time for change now. We already started the second translation round. This means we can only accept new translations caused by fixing "major" bugs. I'd rather like to avoid touching susegreeter at this stage again. -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] New susegreeter / one-click help
Hi,
sorry for the late reply. See comments below
On Sunday 05 August 2007 00:42, Pascal Bleser wrote:
> I'd like to voice some concerns I have about the new susegreeter in 10.3.
>
> The background is that a few folks on IRC (including me) have been
> trying to push the idea of having a one-click icon on the desktop to get
> onto the #suse channel on freenode.
> We do think that it would be a valuable way for new users to get help
> from the community.
>
> What happened (unfortunately somewhat behind the scenes, which is why
> this email might seem a bit late) is that the concept was expanded to
> the following:
> 1) add such links to susegreeter, which is the big shiny "welcome to
> opensuse" window that is started when you first log in
> 2) not only link to #suse but also to the wiki, mailing-lists, forums, SDB
> 3) add a desktop icon to start susegreeter at a later point in time, not
> just on first login
> 4) for IRC, link to #opensuse instead of #suse -- #opensuse is currently
> just a redirect to #suse and would add an additional safety net just in
> case
>
> Here's a mockup of the current implementation:
> http://developer.kde.org/~binner/SUSEgreeter/
General idea behind that is to link the project better with the distrbution.
Therfor we think covering several aspects is a good thing.
>
> While the above is fine and a good idea,
luckily not everything is bad ;-)
> I think the current
> implementation (as of alpha7) is not very good, for the following reasons:
> * the text is too cluttered, and I'm not sure whether using underlined
> links are clear enough to unexperienced users (yeah, everyone knows the
> web and hyperlinks, but still)
I don't see the links an issue
> * the text is not "action oriented", which is pretty much what everyone
> agrees on is the better alternative in terms of usability
>
> What would be more effective (and easier to comprehend) would be to use
> action oriented bullet points (or similar), e.g.:
>
>
> The openSUSE community are helpful people. There are several ways to get
> in touch with other community members, such as forums, mailing lists and
> internet chat (IRC). On the openSUSE wiki there are also HOWTOs and
> other documentation. The first place to look for help is our support
> database.
> * get real-time support from the community using IRC chat
> * subscribe to support mailing-lists and get help from our very large
> user base
> * ask questions and/or search for answers in our communities' forums
> * search for information and help in our wiki articles and howtos
> * search our Support Database (SDB) for existing workarounds
Right, call to action looks better.
ccing Karl as he's doing the translation coordination. I don't know how far
he's already on the greeter and if there is time for change now.
>
> (each of the * being links that trigger the respective action)
> (.. and whatever the order is)
>
> Note that what would be even more effective is to have an intermediate
> screen with complementary information.
I'd say that's something for after 10.3.
> e.g. when clicking the IRC link (as above), get into another screen that
> shortly explains what IRC is, that the room is a community thing and by
> no means "official support", and with additional links, for example:
> * more information about IRC (-> wikipedia)
> * #suse channel rules (-> http://suse-irc.org/rules.html (1))
> and a big fat button "connect now" that would start the respective IRC
> client and connect to irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensuse
>
> (1) we could move that to opensuse.org or opensuse-community.org, might
> be more appropriate
>
> Same thing for mailing-lists, forums, SDB, wiki, ...
>
> And maybe it would be a good idea to split
> a) "how to contribute" type of links (build service, wiki, community)
> b) "how to get help" type of links (IRC, mailing-lists, forums, SDB, ...)
> in order to get more space in the greeter window (maybe use tabs in the
> susegreeter window ?)
>
> One thing that must really be kept in mind is that the "how to get help"
> links are not very interesting on first login and that the user will
> want to use them _when he needs help_.
> 1) "damn, my sound card doesn't work" or "why does amarok not play my
> MP3s" or ..., which leads to:
> 2) "where can I get help ?"
> 3) -> clearly label the desktop icon ("Get help!" would be most
I fully support the "Get help" labeling even as there is more written as
Support and Communication.
> appropriate IMO but then again, I can already hear suits claim "yeah but
> it's community support not official support and ...")
We are a community distribution so community help is one channel for official
support.
I'll put the susegreeter thing to today's IRC meting agenda to get agreement
on it.
M
> 4) -> clearly explain the options and quickly get the user there, which
> can be achieve
Re: [opensuse-factory] New susegreeter / one-click help
On Saturday 04 August 2007 18:25, Benji Weber wrote: > Indeed, I think a clearly labled desktop icon is essential to return > to the greeter/support options. Many users are conditioned to close > all the clutter that opens on first start without much more than > glancing at it. Greeter resembles to splash screens or popups and it can be expected to be closed without reading. I guess that old idea from 9.x times with a desktop item that opens greeter again was good. > Would it be possible in any way to give the user a > visual cue on closing the window that it could be re-accessed through > the icon on the desktop? Something like KDE's minimise to tray warning > perhaps. I would also add offline help that is (can be) installed on the computer. -- Regards, Rajko. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [opensuse-factory] New susegreeter / one-click help
On 04/08/07, Pascal Bleser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > While the above is fine and a good idea, I think the current > implementation (as of alpha7) is not very good, for the following reasons: > * the text is too cluttered, and I'm not sure whether using underlined > links are clear enough to unexperienced users (yeah, everyone knows the > web and hyperlinks, but still) > * the text is not "action oriented", which is pretty much what everyone > agrees on is the better alternative in terms of usability I very much agree, I don't think I'd bother to read the greeter in its current state. When the idea was first suggested I envisioned something a little more like the openSUSE.org homepage [ http://bw.uwcs.co.uk/greeterIdea.png ]. Each Discover|Support|Create section could drill down into more detailed information, or perhaps different additional information could be displayed below depending on what the mouse hovered over. Clearly a balance needs to be struck between having sufficient information available and having too much such that the user doesn't even spot the support options etc. > One thing that must really be kept in mind is that the "how to get help" > links are not very interesting on first login and that the user will > want to use them _when he needs help_. Indeed, I think a clearly labled desktop icon is essential to return to the greeter/support options. Many users are conditioned to close all the clutter that opens on first start without much more than glancing at it. Would it be possible in any way to give the user a visual cue on closing the window that it could be re-accessed through the icon on the desktop? Something like KDE's minimise to tray warning perhaps. _ Benjamin Weber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[opensuse-factory] New susegreeter / one-click help
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
I'd like to voice some concerns I have about the new susegreeter in 10.3.
The background is that a few folks on IRC (including me) have been
trying to push the idea of having a one-click icon on the desktop to get
onto the #suse channel on freenode.
We do think that it would be a valuable way for new users to get help
from the community.
What happened (unfortunately somewhat behind the scenes, which is why
this email might seem a bit late) is that the concept was expanded to
the following:
1) add such links to susegreeter, which is the big shiny "welcome to
opensuse" window that is started when you first log in
2) not only link to #suse but also to the wiki, mailing-lists, forums, SDB
3) add a desktop icon to start susegreeter at a later point in time, not
just on first login
4) for IRC, link to #opensuse instead of #suse -- #opensuse is currently
just a redirect to #suse and would add an additional safety net just in case
Here's a mockup of the current implementation:
http://developer.kde.org/~binner/SUSEgreeter/
While the above is fine and a good idea, I think the current
implementation (as of alpha7) is not very good, for the following reasons:
* the text is too cluttered, and I'm not sure whether using underlined
links are clear enough to unexperienced users (yeah, everyone knows the
web and hyperlinks, but still)
* the text is not "action oriented", which is pretty much what everyone
agrees on is the better alternative in terms of usability
What would be more effective (and easier to comprehend) would be to use
action oriented bullet points (or similar), e.g.:
The openSUSE community are helpful people. There are several ways to get
in touch with other community members, such as forums, mailing lists and
internet chat (IRC). On the openSUSE wiki there are also HOWTOs and
other documentation. The first place to look for help is our support
database.
* get real-time support from the community using IRC chat
* subscribe to support mailing-lists and get help from our very large
user base
* ask questions and/or search for answers in our communities' forums
* search for information and help in our wiki articles and howtos
* search our Support Database (SDB) for existing workarounds
(each of the * being links that trigger the respective action)
(.. and whatever the order is)
Note that what would be even more effective is to have an intermediate
screen with complementary information.
e.g. when clicking the IRC link (as above), get into another screen that
shortly explains what IRC is, that the room is a community thing and by
no means "official support", and with additional links, for example:
* more information about IRC (-> wikipedia)
* #suse channel rules (-> http://suse-irc.org/rules.html (1))
and a big fat button "connect now" that would start the respective IRC
client and connect to irc://irc.freenode.net/#opensuse
(1) we could move that to opensuse.org or opensuse-community.org, might
be more appropriate
Same thing for mailing-lists, forums, SDB, wiki, ...
And maybe it would be a good idea to split
a) "how to contribute" type of links (build service, wiki, community)
b) "how to get help" type of links (IRC, mailing-lists, forums, SDB, ...)
in order to get more space in the greeter window (maybe use tabs in the
susegreeter window ?)
One thing that must really be kept in mind is that the "how to get help"
links are not very interesting on first login and that the user will
want to use them _when he needs help_.
1) "damn, my sound card doesn't work" or "why does amarok not play my
MP3s" or ..., which leads to:
2) "where can I get help ?"
3) -> clearly label the desktop icon ("Get help!" would be most
appropriate IMO but then again, I can already hear suits claim "yeah but
it's community support not official support and ...")
4) -> clearly explain the options and quickly get the user there, which
can be achieved through action oriented bullet lists (as explained above)
Thanks for reading.
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
_\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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