Re:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
John, A few months ago (my how time flies) if I had seen your post the next stop would be the armory for a fully fueled flame-thrower. But times have changed I won't flame you, even though my opinions about MicroSoft remain. Personally, I think over the next 2 to 3 years we're in for another revolution in the software world. Open source software in the form of Linux, PostGreSql, MySql, Gnome, Lindows, etc... are going to make large inroads into what has been the sole purview of companies like MicroSoft, Oracle, IBM, etc... I don't think it's too far off base for us to see a PeopleSoft, or SAP version somewhere down the road that supports PostGreSql and/or MySql. Now this is personal opinion alone, but I see MicroSoft as trying to pull away from the pack onto it's own field with the .net infrastructure that their building. Sure MicroSoft products will work seamlessly with each other, but not with other technologies (read that as primarily Java). So we're all going to be left with one of two choices, use MicroSoft products, or everyone else's. Which leaves MicroSoft in a nice place. You can't be charged with being a monopoly when no one else wants to play on your field. I don't know about the rest of you but I'd prefer to keep my options open. Didn't someone say that proprietary solutions were dinosaurs?? And this from an Oracle zealot!!! What next??? The end of the world?? Dick Goulet BTW: Some of you may find the following rather interesting. Although one company did not want to list their license cost for the larger RFP'd project, I calculate it at better then $4 million. So Oracle is not the most platinum plated of them all. DATABASE STUDY SHOWS SQL SERVER SURPRISES | CRN An in-depth investigation into the pricing schemes offered by each of the major database vendors revealed several surprises, including an upset by Microsoft. The study showed that SQL Server 2000 offered better pricing, training and support than Oracle, IBM, Sybase and Intersystems. For the full details, click: http://www.crn.com/sections/coverstory/coverstory.asp?ArticleID=40277 -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Thanks guys. That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, and for the same reasons you mentioned. Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:35 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle. I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell. From: STEVE OLLIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800 no problem Rich. the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS. and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be placed on different disks and such. transaction logs are kind of like tables in that they must be placed in a device. so yes, these mirrored transaction logs can be kept apart and safe. Rachel's comment is also accurate however. if things go way wrong (usually happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that there's no way to archive it and you end up truncating it. users tend not to like it when they can't do DML ;-) anyway, once a transaction log has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database backup completes. and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups. -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Steve, when you say mirror are the writes duplicated from SQueaL Server or hardware? My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student who left the mirroring of redos up to hardware. One controller firmware patch is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos. So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same as Oracle. Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the mirrors be? Hope this isn't getting too off-topic. I just want to make sure that I'm not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more DBs here... Thx! Rich on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does it get overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode? Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product... Rich -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: STEVE OLLIG INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
to be Microsoft .NET / SQL server based. This in turn creates problems because a year ago it was easy to find a recruit internally who wanted to work as an Oracle DBA these days it is becoming much more difficult. We still do new Oracle development and those projects usually go in very well. Probably because we have consolidated our experienced Oracle developers into one or two areas that have a large commitment to Oracle and their experience helps the projects. Cheerio John -Original Message- Sent: March 3, 2003 9:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Thanks guys. That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for, and for the same reasons you mentioned. Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:35 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle. I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell. From: STEVE OLLIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800 no problem Rich. the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS. and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be placed on different disks and such. transaction logs are kind of like tables in that they must be placed in a device. so yes, these mirrored transaction logs can be kept apart and safe. Rachel's comment is also accurate however. if things go way wrong (usually happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that there's no way to archive it and you end up truncating it. users tend not to like it when they can't do DML ;-) anyway, once a transaction log has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database backup completes. and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups. -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Steve, when you say mirror are the writes duplicated from SQueaL Server or hardware? My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student who left the mirroring of redos up to hardware. One controller firmware patch is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos. So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same as Oracle. Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the mirrors be? Hope this isn't getting too off-topic. I just want to make sure that I'm not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more DBs here... Thx! Rich on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does it get overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode? Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product... Rich -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: STEVE OLLIG INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Well, if they are serious about staying in the big db market, they'd better keep trying. And, where do you catch the attention of managers and journalists? Show some big commitments to your platform by major companies or show performance benchmark results that rival or exceed your competition's. I'd like to see MS put some pressure on Oracle; maybe that would drive Oracle to reduce prices or make further improvement in the quality of management tools, etc. Glenn Stauffer - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Glenn Stauffer INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
www.opensource.org and other sites (The Register) and www.globetechnology.com (Globe Mail's technology news site) mentioned that MS considers LINUX a threat. Last week I attended an OS security class where each student had two PCs, one was a Windows2000 machine, one was a LINUX machine. The LINUX machine came with Gnome, which doesn't look all that bad. I would argue that the LINUX GUI needs a bit of streamlining but you can see that it has dramatically improved. LINUX still has software compatibility problems, the courseware referred to a LINUX configuration program that (for some unknown reason) wouldn't work on our LINUX machines. The LINUX machines seemed to have older hardware, I have the impression that they were the ones the training center had replaced and upgraded to Windows2000, but now had turned around and were using them for teaching OS security on LINUX. Speed was comparable. The irony is that as LINUX becomes more streamlined, vendors start charging for it... Will there be a meeting in the middle of open source OS and Windows? If Microsoft has to reduce its prices for Windows, how will it maintain its revenue growth? Advanced LINUX is not free either, I don't know how its price compares with the Windows2000 offering though. Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As long as I'm not replaced by an open source (cheap) DBA Stephane Paquette Administrateur de bases de donnees Database Administrator Standard Life www.standardlife.ca Tel. (514) 925-7187 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 5:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I don't believe MS will ever give up. Isn't that part of American Capitalism? Your competitor does you one better on some test, therefore you've got to better them. Give Oracle a couple of weeks and we'll here that one too. But seriously, how many of us really care about the TP-C benchmark? It's great for marketing and the sales droids but how do I relate that to the business needs of where I'm working? Great, we can push the database to 400K+ transactions per second, wow. Now if I could just get those 300 testers on the floor to take advantage of that when their tests are 5 minutes long!! Somehow the capabilities of the server/database combination has gotten SOO big that it can't be filled anymore or so the users think when they release the query from hell. BTW: As I look down the road to the future, I wonder how much of the commercial software industry is going to survive the wave of open source stuff coming down the pipe? Here I am, today, sitting at a MS Win2K desktop with Oracle running on the database server. A couple of years down the road I can see a Linux, or some derivative of it, as the desktop and PostgreSql on the database server. Processing data will still have to happen and relational data will still be around, but will MS and Oracle?? Damn good question I'd have to say. /* rant mode off, cool mode on */ Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2/27/2003 11:26 AM For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from).
Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from Microsoft. I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise. 1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... THEN. 2. MS SQL has nothing like package. 3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will have) 4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for whole session. 5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence). 6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to store passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS SQL) :-) 7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL. Just my notes from meeting. JP On Thursday 27 February 2003 21:35, you wrote: I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix stability to Windows stability. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jan Pruner INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
The major misconception is that open source is free (As in no charge, al la Free beer). This this not the case. It is free, as in you can see the source code, play with it, and distribute it. However, you need support, maintenance, etc. This is where the costs are. My company uses Linux for production servers. We didn't move to it strictly because of cost. We moved to it for freedom and flexibility (as opposed to being tied to IBM support contracts). We have paid for 5 people to undergo training and certification and pay for licenses for RedHat Advanced Server. It is worth every penny to not have to schedule weekly reboots of the servers (which the networking group, running windoze, has to). It is also priceless to no longer have IBM telling us that merely considering touching the RS6000 violates our support contract. -Candi Proud user of Evolution mail client on a linux box running KDE... and vmware for windows -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Boyle Candi INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Patrice, As a Win2K and Linux user, Linux is cheaper on two fronts, 1) at $900 per site for a Linux Advanced Server license vs. MS$ $1200 plus license (boy I hope memory is working here) and 2) Yes you can use older, lighter hardware get the same or sometimes even better performance than MS. One thing that sorta frosts me about MicroSoft is that every time they release a new version of their os or applications you end up having to acquire additional or new hardware. Whoever coined the phrase Bloatware must have been a MicroSoft employee. Dick Goulet Opinions expressed are personal. Reply Separator Author: Boivin; Patrice J [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2/28/2003 4:59 AM www.opensource.org and other sites (The Register) and www.globetechnology.com (Globe Mail's technology news site) mentioned that MS considers LINUX a threat. Last week I attended an OS security class where each student had two PCs, one was a Windows2000 machine, one was a LINUX machine. The LINUX machine came with Gnome, which doesn't look all that bad. I would argue that the LINUX GUI needs a bit of streamlining but you can see that it has dramatically improved. LINUX still has software compatibility problems, the courseware referred to a LINUX configuration program that (for some unknown reason) wouldn't work on our LINUX machines. The LINUX machines seemed to have older hardware, I have the impression that they were the ones the training center had replaced and upgraded to Windows2000, but now had turned around and were using them for teaching OS security on LINUX. Speed was comparable. The irony is that as LINUX becomes more streamlined, vendors start charging for it... Will there be a meeting in the middle of open source OS and Windows? If Microsoft has to reduce its prices for Windows, how will it maintain its revenue growth? Advanced LINUX is not free either, I don't know how its price compares with the Windows2000 offering though. Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As long as I'm not replaced by an open source (cheap) DBA Stephane Paquette Administrateur de bases de donnees Database Administrator Standard Life www.standardlife.ca Tel. (514) 925-7187 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 5:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I don't believe MS will ever give up. Isn't that part of American Capitalism? Your competitor does you one better on some test, therefore you've got to better them. Give Oracle a couple of weeks and we'll here that one too. But seriously, how many of us really care about the TP-C benchmark? It's great for marketing and the sales droids but how do I relate that to the business needs of where I'm working? Great, we can push the database to 400K+ transactions per second, wow. Now if I could just get those 300 testers on the floor to take advantage of that when their tests are 5 minutes long!! Somehow the capabilities of the server/database combination has gotten SOO big that it can't be filled anymore or so the users think when they release the query from hell. BTW: As I look down the road to the future, I wonder how much of the commercial software industry is going to survive the wave of open source stuff coming down the pipe? Here I am, today, sitting at a MS Win2K desktop with Oracle running on the database server. A couple of years down the road I can see a Linux, or some derivative of it, as the desktop and PostgreSql on the database server. Processing data will still have to happen and relational data will still be around, but will MS and Oracle?? Damn good question I'd have to say. /* rant mode off, cool mode on */ Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2/27/2003 11:26 AM For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a
Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Advanced Linux is free, but if you choose to buy prepackaged distribution then you have to pay for it. But you will find the same software as in downloaded distribution. :-) I'm using SuSE workstation for Oracle developing and everyday office work more than 2 years now and, personally (!), to work today on Windows200 is a pain for me. I'm using KDE desktop. JP On Friday 28 February 2003 13:59, you wrote: www.opensource.org and other sites (The Register) and www.globetechnology.com (Globe Mail's technology news site) mentioned that MS considers LINUX a threat. Last week I attended an OS security class where each student had two PCs, one was a Windows2000 machine, one was a LINUX machine. The LINUX machine came with Gnome, which doesn't look all that bad. I would argue that the LINUX GUI needs a bit of streamlining but you can see that it has dramatically improved. LINUX still has software compatibility problems, the courseware referred to a LINUX configuration program that (for some unknown reason) wouldn't work on our LINUX machines. The LINUX machines seemed to have older hardware, I have the impression that they were the ones the training center had replaced and upgraded to Windows2000, but now had turned around and were using them for teaching OS security on LINUX. Speed was comparable. The irony is that as LINUX becomes more streamlined, vendors start charging for it... Will there be a meeting in the middle of open source OS and Windows? If Microsoft has to reduce its prices for Windows, how will it maintain its revenue growth? Advanced LINUX is not free either, I don't know how its price compares with the Windows2000 offering though. Regards, Patrice Boivin Systems Analyst (Oracle Certified DBA) -Original Message- Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As long as I'm not replaced by an open source (cheap) DBA Stephane Paquette Administrateur de bases de donnees Database Administrator Standard Life www.standardlife.ca Tel. (514) 925-7187 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 5:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I don't believe MS will ever give up. Isn't that part of American Capitalism? Your competitor does you one better on some test, therefore you've got to better them. Give Oracle a couple of weeks and we'll here that one too. But seriously, how many of us really care about the TP-C benchmark? It's great for marketing and the sales droids but how do I relate that to the business needs of where I'm working? Great, we can push the database to 400K+ transactions per second, wow. Now if I could just get those 300 testers on the floor to take advantage of that when their tests are 5 minutes long!! Somehow the capabilities of the server/database combination has gotten SOO big that it can't be filled anymore or so the users think when they release the query from hell. BTW: As I look down the road to the future, I wonder how much of the commercial software industry is going to survive the wave of open source stuff coming down the pipe? Here I am, today, sitting at a MS Win2K desktop with Oracle running on the database server. A couple of years down the road I can see a Linux, or some derivative of it, as the desktop and PostgreSql on the database server. Processing data will still have to happen and relational data will still be around, but will MS and Oracle?? Damn good question I'd have to say. /* rant mode off, cool mode on */ Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2/27/2003 11:26 AM For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jan Pruner INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Sorry but point 7 isn't exactly true. Transaction logging does take place and can be backed up for reapplication to a database backup. Its not perhaps as well implemented as Oracle's but I have a system with the transaction log backed up every 30 minutes. The implementation is different but the effect is the same with the ability to do point in time recovery. And they do have log shipping capability in SQL Server 2000 (Enterprise). The point that really bothered me was the lack of multiplexing the writes to the transaction logs (redo). DB2/UDB has it. The MSS method (only option) is to Mirror. David From: Jan Pruner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:19:10 -0800 Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from Microsoft. I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise. 1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... THEN. 2. MS SQL has nothing like package. 3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will have) 4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for whole session. 5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence). 6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to store passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS SQL) :-) 7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL. Just my notes from meeting. JP On Thursday 27 February 2003 21:35, you wrote: I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix stability to Windows stability. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jan Pruner INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: david davis INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Not sure if this is true... I heard that to back up the transaction log, the database has to be stopped. ??? Pat. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from Microsoft. I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise. 1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... THEN. 2. MS SQL has nothing like package. 3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will have) 4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for whole session. 5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence). 6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to store passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS SQL) :-) 7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL. Just my notes from meeting. JP On Thursday 27 February 2003 21:35, you wrote: I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix stability to Windows stability. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jan Pruner INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Nope. Can backup online. However certain actions can't be perfomed while the transaction log is being backed. eg. Add new database file to the system. This also applies to database backups. David From: Boivin, Patrice J [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 08:59:14 -0800 Not sure if this is true... I heard that to back up the transaction log, the database has to be stopped. ??? Pat. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:19 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from Microsoft. I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise. 1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... THEN. 2. MS SQL has nothing like package. 3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will have) 4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for whole session. 5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence). 6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to store passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS SQL) :-) 7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL. Just my notes from meeting. JP On Thursday 27 February 2003 21:35, you wrote: I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix stability to Windows stability. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jan Pruner INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Boivin, Patrice J INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: david davis INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Hi I saw this list posted on an Oracle Newsgroup a while back :-) Oracle has multiversioning. SQL Server has no equivalent In Oracle reads don't block writes and writes don't block reads In Oracle there are unlimited row level locks In Oracle there is no such thing as lock escallation or page level locking In Oracle there is no need to use temp tables to accumulate intermediate level results In Oracle phyiscal transactions can be as large as logical transactions. No need to fragment them Oracle runs on platforms other than Windows Oracle has many trigger types not available in SQL Server Oracle lines the pockets of Larry Ellison rather than Bill Gates. Which means that someone is having fun with your money rather than just hoarding it. Also look at the link below for a longish (400+ lines) and very detailed technical comparison. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=faulkner+oracle+sqlserverhl=enlr=lang_en ie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8newwindow=1selm=FssV9.25204%24jM5.66998%40newsfeeds.bigp ond.comrnum=4 - Dale - Instant schema documentation for free? Check out the DDL to HTML facility in the freeware DBATool. http://www.DataBee.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Yes and no. If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware). OTOH, Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last transaction (no data lost) by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the online redos and the archives. Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does it get overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode? Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product... Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:05 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sorry but point 7 isn't exactly true. Transaction logging does take place and can be backed up for reapplication to a database backup. Its not perhaps as well implemented as Oracle's but I have a system with the transaction log backed up every 30 minutes. The implementation is different but the effect is the same with the ability to do point in time recovery. And they do have log shipping capability in SQL Server 2000 (Enterprise). The point that really bothered me was the lack of multiplexing the writes to the transaction logs (redo). DB2/UDB has it. The MSS method (only option) is to Mirror. David From: Jan Pruner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:19:10 -0800 Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from Microsoft. I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise. 1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... THEN. 2. MS SQL has nothing like package. 3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will have) 4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for whole session. 5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence). 6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to store passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS SQL) :-) 7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
last time I worked with SQL Server (at least 5 years ago, so this may be totally out of date) if the log file filled completely you had to truncate it to clear space, you could not archive off. If it was not filled, you could archive and clear it. --- Jesse, Rich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes and no. If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware). OTOH, Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last transaction (no data lost) by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the online redos and the archives. Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does it get overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode? Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product... Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:05 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sorry but point 7 isn't exactly true. Transaction logging does take place and can be backed up for reapplication to a database backup. Its not perhaps as well implemented as Oracle's but I have a system with the transaction log backed up every 30 minutes. The implementation is different but the effect is the same with the ability to do point in time recovery. And they do have log shipping capability in SQL Server 2000 (Enterprise). The point that really bothered me was the lack of multiplexing the writes to the transaction logs (redo). DB2/UDB has it. The MSS method (only option) is to Mirror. David From: Jan Pruner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:19:10 -0800 Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from Microsoft. I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise. 1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... THEN. 2. MS SQL has nothing like package. 3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will have) 4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for whole session. 5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence). 6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to store passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS SQL) :-) 7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rachel Carmichael INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the transaction log in SQeal Server. Same effect. the transaction log is a fixed size. it can be extended while the db is online. but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the day - it's been a while). if the transaction log fills up all DML stops. database still recoverable though. just need to clean out or extend the log and all is well again. no snapshot too old errors though ;-) -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Yes and no. If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware). OTOH, Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last transaction (no data lost) by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the online redos and the archives. Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does it get overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode? Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product... Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 11:05 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sorry but point 7 isn't exactly true. Transaction logging does take place and can be backed up for reapplication to a database backup. Its not perhaps as well implemented as Oracle's but I have a system with the transaction log backed up every 30 minutes. The implementation is different but the effect is the same with the ability to do point in time recovery. And they do have log shipping capability in SQL Server 2000 (Enterprise). The point that really bothered me was the lack of multiplexing the writes to the transaction logs (redo). DB2/UDB has it. The MSS method (only option) is to Mirror. David From: Jan Pruner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:19:10 -0800 Fresh in memory because 2 days ago I had meeting with MS SQL people from Microsoft. I will talk about MS SQL 2000 Enterprise. 1. MS SQL cannot handle exception. There is nothing like EXCEPTION WHEN ... THEN. 2. MS SQL has nothing like package. 3. MS SQL has nothing like partitioned table (next release in 2 years will have) 4. There is nothing like INSERT NOLOGGING. You have start/stop logging for whole session. 5. There's nothing like sequence (Well, IDENTITY column IS NOT sequence). 6. Well, you can use undocumented function pwdencrypt and pwdcompare to store passwords (the same hash function for storing users password is using MS SQL) :-) 7. There is nothing like ARCHIVE MODE in MS SQL. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: STEVE OLLIG INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Steve, when you say mirror are the writes duplicated from SQueaL Server or hardware? My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student who left the mirroring of redos up to hardware. One controller firmware patch is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos. So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same as Oracle. Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the mirrors be? Hope this isn't getting too off-topic. I just want to make sure that I'm not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more DBs here... Thx! Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the transaction log in SQeal Server. Same effect. the transaction log is a fixed size. it can be extended while the db is online. but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the day - it's been a while). if the transaction log fills up all DML stops. database still recoverable though. just need to clean out or extend the log and all is well again. no snapshot too old errors though ;-) -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Yes and no. If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware). OTOH, Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last transaction (no data lost) by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the online redos and the archives. Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does it get overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode? Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product... Rich -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
no problem Rich. the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS. and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be placed on different disks and such. transaction logs are kind of like tables in that they must be placed in a device. so yes, these mirrored transaction logs can be kept apart and safe. Rachel's comment is also accurate however. if things go way wrong (usually happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that there's no way to archive it and you end up truncating it. users tend not to like it when they can't do DML ;-) anyway, once a transaction log has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database backup completes. and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups. -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Steve, when you say mirror are the writes duplicated from SQueaL Server or hardware? My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student who left the mirroring of redos up to hardware. One controller firmware patch is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos. So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same as Oracle. Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the mirrors be? Hope this isn't getting too off-topic. I just want to make sure that I'm not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more DBs here... Thx! Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the transaction log in SQeal Server. Same effect. the transaction log is a fixed size. it can be extended while the db is online. but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the day - it's been a while). if the transaction log fills up all DML stops. database still recoverable though. just need to clean out or extend the log and all is well again. no snapshot too old errors though ;-) -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Yes and no. If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware). OTOH, Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last transaction (no data lost) by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the online redos and the archives. Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does it get overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode? Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product... Rich -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: STEVE OLLIG INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle. I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell. From: STEVE OLLIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800 no problem Rich. the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS. and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be placed on different disks and such. transaction logs are kind of like tables in that they must be placed in a device. so yes, these mirrored transaction logs can be kept apart and safe. Rachel's comment is also accurate however. if things go way wrong (usually happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that there's no way to archive it and you end up truncating it. users tend not to like it when they can't do DML ;-) anyway, once a transaction log has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database backup completes. and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups. -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Steve, when you say mirror are the writes duplicated from SQueaL Server or hardware? My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student who left the mirroring of redos up to hardware. One controller firmware patch is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos. So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same as Oracle. Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the mirrors be? Hope this isn't getting too off-topic. I just want to make sure that I'm not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more DBs here... Thx! Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the transaction log in SQeal Server. Same effect. the transaction log is a fixed size. it can be extended while the db is online. but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the day - it's been a while). if the transaction log fills up all DML stops. database still recoverable though. just need to clean out or extend the log and all is well again. no snapshot too old errors though ;-) -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Yes and no. If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware). OTOH, Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last transaction (no data lost) by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the online redos and the archives. Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and at a fixed size (as opposed to Oracle, where you can add redo groups on-the-fly)? In other words, if it fills up, what happens? Does it get overwritten or does the DB continue in an unrecoverable mode? Trying to understand more of this wonderful Enterprise product... Rich -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jesse, Rich INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
If you are an Oracle DBA and management switches to SQL Server no Oracle DBA in the world is going to sway that decision. By the the time an Oracle DBA will hear about that he or she is already slated for re-tooling. You were very lucky to be able to present to management. Many times the deal is over and you are sent to MS-SQL classes or quit. Another example of a DBMH system. (decision by marketing hype) Frankly you can't have a mission critical enterprise class RDBMS on a unreliable, unsecure OS. (ouch) BRad O. -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 3:35 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L The txn log is just a separate database file(s) and they can autogrow in increments (MB or %). The growth can be unrestricted or restricted to a fixed MB size. Though command line TSQL can create the files with space allocated in units (KB/MB/GB/TB). The wizard isn't quite as flexible. There can also be multiple transaction log files though I believe the virtual log files (logs within logs) extended through the additional files as needed as opposed to the circular log jumping that happens in Oracle. I think it is important as Oracle DBA's we have at least a conceptual knowledge of what SQL Server can and cannot do. So when management says they want to switch to SQL Server you have something to back up your opinions. I ran into this where the management was MSS/Win2K focused to the max I had to battle against them and the MS marketing guy. I won but it was a lot of work to prove my case. Actually, used application porting time/costs/metrics as DBMS/OS capabilities was a much harder sell. From: STEVE OLLIG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:49:29 -0800 no problem Rich. the transaction log mirroring can be done by the DBMS. and SQueal Server has disk devices much like a tablespace that can be placed on different disks and such. transaction logs are kind of like tables in that they must be placed in a device. so yes, these mirrored transaction logs can be kept apart and safe. Rachel's comment is also accurate however. if things go way wrong (usually happens to a novice dba) the transaction log can get stuffed so full that there's no way to archive it and you end up truncating it. users tend not to like it when they can't do DML ;-) anyway, once a transaction log has been truncated there is no transaction recovery until the next database backup completes. and yes - the database backup utility does hot backups. -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:47 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject:RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Steve, when you say mirror are the writes duplicated from SQueaL Server or hardware? My DBA instructor had distributed some e-mails from a student who left the mirroring of redos up to hardware. One controller firmware patch is all it took to corrupt both copies of the redos. So, if the mirror is done at the hardware level, it wouldn't be the same as Oracle. Also, if the TX logs are in the DB, how separated can the mirrors be? Hope this isn't getting too off-topic. I just want to make sure that I'm not burning any bridges by refusing to let SQueaL Server get any more DBs here... Thx! Rich Rich JesseSystem/Database Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quad/Tech International, Sussex, WI USA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 1:19 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Rich - on your first point - that's why you would choose to mirror the transaction log in SQeal Server. Same effect. the transaction log is a fixed size. it can be extended while the db is online. but shrinking it is quite a bother (at least was back in the day - it's been a while). if the transaction log fills up all DML stops. database still recoverable though. just need to clean out or extend the log and all is well again. no snapshot too old errors though ;-) -Original Message- From: Jesse, Rich [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Yes and no. If your logs are backed up every 30 minutes, then you are effectively saying that you are willing to lose up to 30 minutes of transactions, in the event of failure on the TX logs (e.g. hardware). OTOH, Oracle can easily be made to be completely recoverable up to the last transaction (no data lost) by duplicating, triplicating, etc. both the online redos and the archives. Also, isn't the transaction log area in SQueaL Server in the DB itself and at a fixed size
MS SQL hasn't given up!
For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Select * from dual / always gives good performance ... Okay ... MS got good numbers, so assume that system was so tweaked that no other program else might be running on it for all we know. Launch a local IE and see the TPC-C go down ... (I know, sometimes I can be evil ...) But TPC-C doesn't care about the effect of virus attacks? Available exploits? BSOD? Now that itanium is 64bit and faster, would you see a BSOD appear faster? I don't hate MS, I just like them less than I like Unix systems... that's all, it is a personal preference. ps: This email is sent using Outlook/2000 running on Windoz/2000. Raj - Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com Any views expressed here are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !! -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up! For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). *This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*1
Re: MS SQL hasn't given up!
If you know MS. You should know they will never give up. They will conquer the Universe one day. Resistance is futile. -- Lyndon Tiu Quoting DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED]: For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! I think it is foolish to ignore MS SQL at this point. I think that knowing MS SQL only benefits me as a Oracle DBA in the long-run. It helps to understand the core concepts of managing RDBMS. I don't think I could know both in the same amount of detail and frankly there is a lot more to know about Oracle from a purely RDBMS basis because there is more to deal with - I think this translates to more flexibility of an RDBMS. I think we become more valuable to employers and in the market if we can understand both to some degree. Sorry. Just observing reality. Paula Stankus 80% OCP DBA 8i, 100% DBA, X% Project Mgr, X% Developer, X% 9IAS ADministrator, X% ArcSDE Administrator, X% Data Architect, 100% Wife, Mother and Daughter, 100% Tired. -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up! For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! I agree - the biggest advantage Oracle has to MS SQL Server is Unix stability to Windows stability. -Original Message-From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:44 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Select * from dual / always gives good performance ... Okay ... MS got good numbers, so assume that system was so tweaked that no other program else might be running on it for all we know. Launch a local IE and see the TPC-C go down ... (I know, sometimes I can be evil ...) But TPC-C doesn't care about the effect of virus attacks? Available exploits? BSOD? Now that itanium is 64bit and faster, would you see a BSOD appear faster? I don't hate MS, I just like them less than I like Unix systems... that's all, it is a personal preference. ps: This email is sent using Outlook/2000 running on Windoz/2000. Raj - Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com Any views expressed here are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !! -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up! For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Paula, I like the 100% tired part. Raj - Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com Any views expressed here are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !! -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:09 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! I think it is foolish to ignore MS SQL at this point. I think that knowing MS SQL only benefits me as a Oracle DBA in the long-run. It helps to understand the core concepts of managing RDBMS. I don't think I could know both in the same amount of detail and frankly there is a lot more to know about Oracle from a purely RDBMS basis because there is more to deal with - I think this translates to more flexibility of an RDBMS. I think we become more valuable to employers and in the market if we can understand both to some degree. Sorry. Just observing reality. Paula Stankus 80% OCP DBA 8i, 100% DBA, X% Project Mgr, X% Developer, X% 9IAS ADministrator, X% ArcSDE Administrator, X% Data Architect, 100% Wife, Mother and Daughter, 100% Tired. *This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*1
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! I would be curious to know what changes they made to the OS, what services they decided not to run. Did they follow their own security guidelines before running the tests? Pat. -Original Message-From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:44 PMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Select * from dual / always gives good performance ... Okay ... MS got good numbers, so assume that system was so tweaked that no other program else might be running on it for all we know. Launch a local IE and see the TPC-C go down ... (I know, sometimes I can be evil ...) But TPC-C doesn't care about the effect of virus attacks? Available exploits? BSOD? Now that itanium is 64bit and faster, would you see a BSOD appear faster? I don't hate MS, I just like them less than I like Unix systems... that's all, it is a personal preference. ps: This email is sent using Outlook/2000 running on Windoz/2000. Raj - Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com Any views expressed here are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !! -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up! For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
Title: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! He's got a good point, performance at that point doesn't matter if your system must be rebooted weekly, and crashes every couple of days. The tests should be run 24x7 for 350 days... to get a real idea on what kind of reliability and performance you can get. -Original Message-From: Jamadagni, Rajendra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:44 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: MS SQL hasn't given up! Select * from dual / always gives good performance ... Okay ... MS got good numbers, so assume that system was so tweaked that no other program else might be running on it for all we know. Launch a local IE and see the TPC-C go down ... (I know, sometimes I can be evil ...) But TPC-C doesn't care about the effect of virus attacks? Available exploits? BSOD? Now that itanium is 64bit and faster, would you see a BSOD appear faster? I don't hate MS, I just like them less than I like Unix systems... that's all, it is a personal preference. ps: This email is sent using Outlook/2000 running on Windoz/2000. Raj - Rajendra dot Jamadagni at espn dot com Any views expressed here are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art !! -Original Message- From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:26 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: MS SQL hasn't given up! For your amusement, MS thinks they can "now" equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: MS SQL hasn't given up!
As long as I'm not replaced by an open source (cheap) DBA Stephane Paquette Administrateur de bases de donnees Database Administrator Standard Life www.standardlife.ca Tel. (514) 925-7187 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 5:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I don't believe MS will ever give up. Isn't that part of American Capitalism? Your competitor does you one better on some test, therefore you've got to better them. Give Oracle a couple of weeks and we'll here that one too. But seriously, how many of us really care about the TP-C benchmark? It's great for marketing and the sales droids but how do I relate that to the business needs of where I'm working? Great, we can push the database to 400K+ transactions per second, wow. Now if I could just get those 300 testers on the floor to take advantage of that when their tests are 5 minutes long!! Somehow the capabilities of the server/database combination has gotten SOO big that it can't be filled anymore or so the users think when they release the query from hell. BTW: As I look down the road to the future, I wonder how much of the commercial software industry is going to survive the wave of open source stuff coming down the pipe? Here I am, today, sitting at a MS Win2K desktop with Oracle running on the database server. A couple of years down the road I can see a Linux, or some derivative of it, as the desktop and PostgreSql on the database server. Processing data will still have to happen and relational data will still be around, but will MS and Oracle?? Damn good question I'd have to say. /* rant mode off, cool mode on */ Dick Goulet Reply Separator Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2/27/2003 11:26 AM For your amusement, MS thinks they can now equal Oracle in performance (wasn't that what they claimed 3 years ago?). Anyway, I tend to think of these benchmarks like the NASCAR winners. Yeah I'm going to go by a Chrysler because it won the NASCAR championship. http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707 Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Paquette INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
