Re: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
no ASMs are considerably different. Its supposed to manage everything. You dont give it a file, you give it entire disks and oracle does everything. Sets up files, manages, I/O, everything. you only look at the tablespace level. you dont even install any software on it. If your on SAN, you dont install SAN software on it. From: Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:14:27 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said that regular EIDE hard drives that you put in home PCs are plenty fast enough for most systems. He recommends getting 4 300 GB drives(1.2 TBs) for about $1400 to do this and to make tape backups off of this since they are really slow. Can any beta testers comment? Im pleased with the rename tablespace feature... that way I dont have to update TS$ anymore... I wonder if it was our complaining that got them to add it :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L
RE: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
HUMM, That gives me an even worse feeling. Not something I'll use that's for sure. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 9:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L no ASMs are considerably different. Its supposed to manage everything. You dont give it a file, you give it entire disks and oracle does everything. Sets up files, manages, I/O, everything. you only look at the tablespace level. you dont even install any software on it. If your on SAN, you dont install SAN software on it. From: Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:14:27 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said that regular EIDE hard drives that you put in home PCs are plenty fast enough for most systems. He recommends getting 4 300 GB drives(1.2 TBs) for about $1400 to do this and to make tape backups off of this since they are really slow. Can any beta testers comment? Im pleased with the rename tablespace feature... that way I dont have to update TS$ anymore... I wonder if it was our complaining that got them to add it :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
Re: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
As with anything I suppose, if a single vendor can be in control of more of the stack between application and physical server structure then there is a greater opportunity for benefits. For example, ASM offers the ability to add disks to a stripe without needing to redistribute(reload) the entire stripeset. A (bug-free) ASM product looks very very impressive to me. Time will tell how close Oracle are to achieving it. hth connor --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: no ASMs are considerably different. Its supposed to manage everything. You dont give it a file, you give it entire disks and oracle does everything. Sets up files, manages, I/O, everything. you only look at the tablespace level. you dont even install any software on it. If your on SAN, you dont install SAN software on it. From: Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:14:27 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said that regular EIDE hard drives that you put in home PCs are plenty fast enough for most systems. He recommends getting 4 300 GB drives(1.2 TBs) for about $1400 to do this and to make tape backups off of this since they are really slow. Can any beta testers comment? Im pleased with the rename tablespace feature... that way I dont have to update TS$ anymore... I wonder if it was our complaining that got them to add it :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information
RE: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
And the more that vendor, namely the database in this case, controls more and more of the stack the more any performance problem must be a database problem. No thank you. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 10:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As with anything I suppose, if a single vendor can be in control of more of the stack between application and physical server structure then there is a greater opportunity for benefits. For example, ASM offers the ability to add disks to a stripe without needing to redistribute(reload) the entire stripeset. A (bug-free) ASM product looks very very impressive to me. Time will tell how close Oracle are to achieving it. hth connor --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: no ASMs are considerably different. Its supposed to manage everything. You dont give it a file, you give it entire disks and oracle does everything. Sets up files, manages, I/O, everything. you only look at the tablespace level. you dont even install any software on it. If your on SAN, you dont install SAN software on it. From: Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:14:27 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said that regular EIDE hard drives that you put in home PCs are plenty fast enough for most systems. He recommends getting 4 300 GB drives(1.2 TBs) for about $1400 to do this and to make tape backups off of this since they are really slow. Can any beta testers comment? Im pleased with the rename tablespace feature... that way I dont have to update TS$ anymore... I wonder if it was our complaining that got them to add it :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services
RE: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
Hi, I sat in a presentation up here in Wisconsin. I got the distinct feeling that most of the new features aren't optional. Either you use them or you don't use 10g. I can't remember if ASM was one of those mandatory features. -- Joe Frohne Rawson Oaks Consulting, Remote Oracle Admins http://www.rawsonoaks.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oak Creek, WI, USA HUMM, That gives me an even worse feeling. Not something I'll use that's for sure. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 9:45 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L no ASMs are considerably different. Its supposed to manage everything. You dont give it a file, you give it entire disks and oracle does everything. Sets up files, manages, I/O, everything. you only look at the tablespace level. you dont even install any software on it. If your on SAN, you dont install SAN software on it. From: Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:14:27 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said that regular EIDE hard drives that you put in home PCs are plenty fast enough for most systems. He recommends getting 4 300 GB drives(1.2 TBs) for about $1400 to do this and to make tape backups off of this since they are really slow. Can any beta testers comment? Im pleased with the rename tablespace feature... that way I dont have to update TS$ anymore... I wonder if it was our complaining that got them to add it :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
RE: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
Just a couple of comments on this which hopefully won't go down the Marketing track too far. :) 1. I'm pretty sure Steve Adams agrees with you, since he co-presented on ASM at OracleWorld in San Fran. Not sure if he monitors this group actively or not, but I believe the presentation he did is loaded with all the other OracleWorld 2003 presentations so you can see what he said. 2. One point which makes a lot of sense to me, and it happens in a variety of places in 10g such as ASM and the RAC clusterware. If you have one vendor to raise an issue with (not that you'd need to do that with Oracle of course!), it's a lot easier to get an answer without the finger pointing that can go on between vendors. Take the clusterware example - if you run into a problem running RAC on Sun with the Sun Cluster technology and Veritas owning the disk side, who you gonna call? GhostBusters, maybe! But if you're running RAC on Sun with Oracle's clusterware and ASM, it's a lot easier to determine who to call. Pete Controlling developers is like herding cats. Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that! Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA -Original Message- Connor McDonald Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 2:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As with anything I suppose, if a single vendor can be in control of more of the stack between application and physical server structure then there is a greater opportunity for benefits. For example, ASM offers the ability to add disks to a stripe without needing to redistribute(reload) the entire stripeset. A (bug-free) ASM product looks very very impressive to me. Time will tell how close Oracle are to achieving it. hth connor --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: no ASMs are considerably different. Its supposed to manage everything. You dont give it a file, you give it entire disks and oracle does everything. Sets up files, manages, I/O, everything. you only look at the tablespace level. you dont even install any software on it. If your on SAN, you dont install SAN software on it. From: Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:14:27 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said that regular EIDE hard drives that you put in home PCs are plenty fast enough for most systems. He recommends getting 4 300 GB drives(1.2 TBs) for about $1400 to do this and to make tape backups off of this since they are really slow. Can any beta testers comment? Im pleased with the rename tablespace feature... that way I dont have to update TS$ anymore... I wonder if it was our complaining that got them to add it :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http
RE: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
Right. Then the finger pointing will be contained within Oracle Corp. I don't know whether ASM is a good idea, a bad one, or a mediocre one, but I don't believe holding one vendor responible will help resolve issues in a more timely manner. Pete Sharman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/19/2003 10:09 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To:Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers Just a couple of comments on this which hopefully won't go down the Marketing track too far. :) 1. I'm pretty sure Steve Adams agrees with you, since he co-presented on ASM at OracleWorld in San Fran. Not sure if he monitors this group actively or not, but I believe the presentation he did is loaded with all the other OracleWorld 2003 presentations so you can see what he said. 2. One point which makes a lot of sense to me, and it happens in a variety of places in 10g such as ASM and the RAC clusterware. If you have one vendor to raise an issue with (not that you'd need to do that with Oracle of course!), it's a lot easier to get an answer without the finger pointing that can go on between vendors. Take the clusterware example - if you run into a problem running RAC on Sun with the Sun Cluster technology and Veritas owning the disk side, who you gonna call? GhostBusters, maybe! But if you're running RAC on Sun with Oracle's clusterware and ASM, it's a lot easier to determine who to call. Pete Controlling developers is like herding cats. Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook Oh no, it's not. It's much harder than that! Bruce Pihlamae, long-term Oracle DBA -Original Message- Connor McDonald Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 2:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As with anything I suppose, if a single vendor can be in control of more of the stack between application and physical server structure then there is a greater opportunity for benefits. For example, ASM offers the ability to add disks to a stripe without needing to redistribute(reload) the entire stripeset. A (bug-free) ASM product looks very very impressive to me. Time will tell how close Oracle are to achieving it. hth connor --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: no ASMs are considerably different. Its supposed to manage everything. You dont give it a file, you give it entire disks and oracle does everything. Sets up files, manages, I/O, everything. you only look at the tablespace level. you dont even install any software on it. If your on SAN, you dont install SAN software on it. From: Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:14:27 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said
RE: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
This could simplify life, particularly with wait event-based tuning. If Oracle properly instruments these additional layers for timing, it makes it easy to diagnose performance problems, not harder. Interested in Cary's thoughts on this. Adam Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/19/2003 07:49 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc Subject RE: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers And the more that vendor, namely the database in this case, controls more and more of the stack the more any performance problem must be a database problem. No thank you. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 10:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L As with anything I suppose, if a single vendor can be in control of more of the stack between application and physical server structure then there is a greater opportunity for benefits. For example, ASM offers the ability to add disks to a stripe without needing to redistribute(reload) the entire stripeset. A (bug-free) ASM product looks very very impressive to me. Time will tell how close Oracle are to achieving it. hth connor --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: no ASMs are considerably different. Its supposed to manage everything. You dont give it a file, you give it entire disks and oracle does everything. Sets up files, manages, I/O, everything. you only look at the tablespace level. you dont even install any software on it. If your on SAN, you dont install SAN software on it. From: Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri AM 09:14:27 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said that regular EIDE hard drives that you put in home PCs are plenty fast enough for most systems. He recommends getting 4 300 GB drives(1.2 TBs) for about $1400 to do this and to make tape backups off of this since they are really slow. Can any beta testers comment? Im pleased with the rename tablespace feature... that way I dont have to update TS$ anymore... I wonder if it was our complaining that got them to add it :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line
Re: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers
SAME is stripe and mirror everything. There is a doc on otn by that name. ASMs will do that for you, 'in theory'. kyte is the technical face of oracle. This is why they pay him so much money. presentation would have been better if people didnt play 'stump the dba'. It seems like people were trying to show him how smart they were by asking irrelevent narrow questions that will be in the docs when they come in the next couple of months... wish he would have cut them off and covered more big picture stuff. From: Michael Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/12/19 Fri PM 01:14:29 EST To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: 10g new features question for beta testers I was in Reston last night, too. Also, Tom repeatedly emphasized RMAN, which I've not spent enough time mastering, will be even more important in 10g. Does everyone here use RMAN that is using 9i currently? BTW. Tom mentioned SAME, as you say, but I can not remember what he said about it. Sorry. Maybe Ryan remembers? As far as ASM, I thought it was interesting that ASM was supposed to run as additional PMON/SMON processes with separate dynamic V$ views as the API. I was pretty impressed that Tom was spending the week before holidays travelling around and doing Oracle presentations. He is really amazing. Regards, Mike --- Goulet, Dick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is not exactly a new feature. Oracle 9i has Oracle Managed Files where you give it a directory and then just build tablespaces. The database picks the filenames for you. Now mind you it does work, but I'll be damned if I use it in anything other than a development environment. For some reason Oracle has never gotten over that DUMB SAME (Stripe And Mirror Everything) idea. The concept is great in theory, but in practice it's absolutely abysmal at best. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 8:24 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I saw a presentation from Oracle on 10g new features last night in Reston,VA. I know atleast one other person from the list was there. Since Oracle is releasing details and its going to be released(in theory) in the next 2 weeks, I was wondering if you guys could talk about it. 1. does ASMs work as well as Oracle claims? I always wonder about first generation features... takes most software vendors a couple of generations to get it right(takes any project Im on just as long). This is a radical departure. for those of you who dont know. Oracle claims that they will manage your disks for you. All you do is give Oracle some Raw Disks and Oracle will set up, and handle all your datafiles. All you do is look at logical tablespaces. It will also handle I/O balancing. How well does this work? Anyone test it with a SAN? 2. RAC Load Balancing. Oracle claims that you only need Oracle software from now on. They also claim that you can load balance multiple applications. Lets say you have One application that runs batch loads over night and a transactional application during the day oracle will automatically steal resources from the other when its not busy... anyone test this? 3. Flashback database. Kyte was the presenter and he said that you can keep massive undo areas, so that if you have a failure or delete data you shouldnt have you can have oracle automatically write the DML necessary to bring it back to any point in time. Kyte said that regular EIDE hard drives that you put in home PCs are plenty fast enough for most systems. He recommends getting 4 300 GB drives(1.2 TBs) for about $1400 to do this and to make tape backups off of this since they are really slow. Can any beta testers comment? Im pleased with the rename tablespace feature... that way I dont have to update TS$ anymore... I wonder if it was our complaining that got them to add it :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego
