[OGD] Pk seedlings
Sure do love a tennis match. Back and forth, back and forth . 'Quoth' the Raven, "Evermore" . back and forth. The only trouble is that we will never get to any 'Pk' point - not even hoping for set or match. Maybe we should call this the Pk Whimp-le-ton. Seems to me a lot like the Libby trial -- a very important question but those who really know what is going on just ain't talking while others can only speculate. Maybe it is time to go back to CITES. Let's try for something really juicy to speculate on: Will the US/EU CITES Police once again blow it like they did at one of the Redlands International Orchid Festivals a few years ago (French grower - don't remember which of the 'Family' it was) or will they exercise wisdom and cut the WOC some slack? Las Vegas - will you offer odds? Betters - go for stupidity and bureaucracy. That 'other' Jerry Fis(c)her identified the problem(s)(Orchids Digest, Vol 9, Issue 88) and nobody from AOS nor the Miami WOC has replied about how they are working with "Authority" to have things go smoothly - or even rationally: "The problem really is that if a person from the EU wants to purchase plants at the 19thWOC they have to have an import permit in advance from their countries management authority. This means they have to know exactly what they want to purchase well in advance of the WOC. ... Many other countries also require import permits and this all takes time. It is truly time for CITES reform regarding (ORCHID-my add) plants and I will shortly begin posting on this forum (and others) proposals as to how CITES could change to accommodate trade in truly art-prop material. I will be looking for feedback and if growers approve of these ideas I will ask for a statement of support. I will then begin to take this material to CITES officials in the US and Switzerland to see if change can occur." Don't like CITES? MAYBE WE CAN WE CONSIDER SOMETHING FOR WHICH I HAVE A DEEP PASSION (and something that can be accommodated by local/WOC societies - something over which they do have direct control): 1. Will all orchid shows (especially the WOC) set aside a special time for photographers - you know those guys and gals with tripods? Recently 'Rf WOC Bob' got right back on CITES but I have seen nothing on my comment on WOC and photographers dated 2 March 2007 Orchids Digest, Vol 9, Issue 82. 2. Will all orchid shows allow someone other than 'THE AOS chosen - FILM CAMERA - one' to take quality pictures of AOS awarded plants while they are being photographed for award record? I only write for myself but I would be perfectly resigned/willing to do so at 02:00 if that was the only time available. 3. When will the AOS recognize Digital Photography? Maybe they are reluctant to do so because it seems to me that their magazine 'frequently' has 'juiced' pictures. While I am on the soap box - but it is actually related. I ask that judges do the best they can to judge the quality of the photograph rather than the orchid. I was once told by a judge that my picture was not selected for a ribbon because the orchid I had selected to photograph was not of award quality. Maybe he was being kind but I don't think so - it WAS a lousy blossom but a very good PhotoShop pastel rendering worthy of an 'artistic' ribbon. I later sold the picture for US$50.00. PAX - but I fear not of my time. Jerry in IN ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk x St Ouen Timetable
I am curious, I am impressed that Glen has raised this to bloom so quickly. Where is this plant? Does it reside in Peru or here in the US? If it exists in the US, how could it have come from flasks imported in 2005? I and others know how long it takes to do this from flask. Can someone clarify this timeline? The reason I am interested is that so much has been made of the "legality" of flasks and plants, it just seems to me that it is way too early to be seeing blooming hybrids from flasks that were done legally. On top of that, I have noticed all the great response about this cross. To me, seeing a single flowered Phrag that holds this flower for 14 days (tops) is not a great achievement. Crossing Pk with complex or simple besseae crosses is just going to make big puffy single, maybe double flowers at best. The sequential blooming is lost in that type of breeding. I truly believe that the crosses of Pk x longifolium and sargentianum are going to be the foundation of great Pk hybrids, just as it was with besseae which has created some of the best sequentially blooming Phrags to date! That is what I am waiting for. Barbara ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk Controversy: Chuck Acker, Peter Croezen
Dot, I HAVE met one of these men and have been a close friend of his for over a decade. I had a lengthy email conversation with the other man that yielded lots of stories full of innuendo, and with clearly stated rumors. When I mentioned this conversation with him a few months later, he had no recollection of it and said he had no idea who I was. As for the Arias controversy... No one has dibs on facts on this one except Manolo and the workers in the lab there. I am not a supporter of him, but I do support the one who did business with him and am privy to some of the "facts" that many of the speculators out there purport to know but have gotten wrong. First of all, there is no evidence at this time of any deliberate wrongdoing, the operative word here being Deliberate. While it is obvious there is something awry here, there is nothing proved and where I come from, people are innocent until proved guilty. Labs do make mistakes, as all of you know and I'm sure many of you can think of various "mistakes" that have been made in the past. While unfortunate, they are cataclysmic in effect when you think of the countless people in possession of mis-named plants. As I said, there is no concrete evidence that there was intentional wrongdoing. When the true identity of the plants in question came to light and this was brought to Mr Arias' attention, he wasted no time in writing his letter and promised to make good on his product. That is a reasonable and honorable response to this kind of situation. All of this is fact. What irritates me no end is the financial twist some have put on this "saga". The one who is most outspoken against the Arias' has an obvious stake in the matter. It is to his benefit that the Arias's are made to look crooked. If there is only ONE TRUE SUPPLIER, then he and his partners stand to gain financially. Had Mr Croezen not been a player in this game, I would not be so peeved. But I believe he used controversy to line his and his partners' pockets. One would almost wonder if he is behind the events of this controversy since he seems to know so much about it. It is unfortunate that this person and his partners sold so many immature flasks that later died. At that time, no one really knew what conditions they needed to survive, let alone thrive. Couldn't they have waited until they knew how to handle these plants? Did they make money on this? Oh, Yes. Did they replace these flasks? Maybe some, but not all. That is not the case with the one who is my friend. He made an agreement that a lot of you out there speculated about and ridiculed, but he stood by his word. And his integrity saved a lot of you much grief and uncertainty. Had he abandoned the agreement to not sell his plants for 2 years, and sold his plants too early, many of you out there would have plants in your possession that were either dead or not what you paid for. Instead, he waited it out and grew the plants to a better stage of maturity. He took his time, gaining experience and knowledge of the new species. When it became clear to him there was a problem, he took the initiative to find out the facts. Once he knew what he was dealing with, he undid your deals and refunded your money. That was a hardship and a sacrifice from start to finish. But it was the right thing to do and that is what he does. AND, while so many out here in internet land are discussing it and debating the issues, and speculating and attacking, and bragging, and gossiping, and whatever, he has been quietly working in the background, growing the plants, taking care of business, checking things out, and watching out for his customer's best interests. You won't hear him out here blasting his competition, making sly insinuations, and creating doubt in people's minds. He won't stoop to that level. It would be good if everyone would take a lesson from his example. Yes, even me. Enough of this. I have a question of a different, but related matter. I have to go and ask that question in another post. Barbara > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:19:38 -0500 > From: Dorothy & Le Roy Barnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [OGD] Subject: Re: Chuck Acker > To: orchids@orchidguide.com > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > I must admit that I was taken back at such a strong attack. > > While I've not met either of these two gentlemen, I have, during my > time on both the OGD and SlipperTalk Forums, read many posts by Peter > Croezen. While he may be a bit hot-headed at times, I've not seen any > personal attacks by him regarding anyone involved in the kovachii saga. > > So I am wondering, Mr. Marriott, where is Peter Croezen's "history of > hating people"? How are his words "gossip maker/spreader"? What has > he said that is not true? > > I'd really like to know, because I've been following what Mr. Croezen > has said about the
[OGD] Pk seedlings
Peter, I agree that illegal mature Pk are being traded all over the world. However, what Glenn and I are offering for sale are Pk seedlings with a leaf span of less than 10 cm and yes, these are from legal flasks germinated more than three years ago,2003, by Alfredo Manrique in his legal Pk laboratory. We both supply legal Pk certificates with every sale, duplicate copies of which are returned to Alfredo Manrique in Lima for INRENA, the Peruvian CITES Authority. Peter who said: >Amazing how quickly they grow (er ... from flask), isn't it ? ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk Plants
Chuck Acker (Orchids by the Ackers, WI) and Jerry Fischer (Orchids Limited, MN) have been breeding and growing orchids for many years. Based on many visits to their ranges and laboratories, and many conversations with them, I'm very comfortable with both their breeding and growing skills and their ethics. Both have been very open about what they are doing and with what success. Granted, there may be some "shenanigans" going on somewhere in the U.S. or elsewhere - nothing new about that. In Wisconsin and Minnesota, Pk seedlings and crosses are legal and exactly as they are represented to be. Russ Tyler Brainerd, MN ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk seedlings are easy to grow.
Bill,
Concerning your post "Kovachii" I take it you
mean Phragmipedium kovachii, (note small letter k) commonly referred to as Pk on
public forums.
You speak of Pk seedlings "being impossible to
grow." I totally disagree One very experienced Phrag
grower/exhibitor/vendor tells me that in his experience, Pk seedlings are
easier to grow than Phrag besseae seedlings.
I base my disagreement with your post on my
personal experience and the experience of others as posted for some time now
on public forums . Yes there are some who have problems, but then there are
some who have problems with Phal. seedlings as well.
I feel sorry that you had a bad personal
experience, which may be due to one or more of many factors which you fail to
disclose. The biggest part of your problem may be "too high temperatures for in
flask seedlings" plus "from whom and when," you purchased the Pk flask and not
having been told a few basic rules to follow. You can truly not generalize from
that experience
You certainly can not speak for "anyone growing
them," which I take to mean "everyone growing them."
You can not speak for me, or the many Pk
seedling owners who are growing them successfully in many countries
all over the world; some of whom I know personally.
I think you are doing the vendors and indeed the
average Phrag growers a disservice with your post.
Pk seedlings, legally propagated in the
laboratories of CJM (Centro de Jardineria Manrique)are easy to
grow!
When in flask, you have to keep the temperatures in
mid to high sixties, for growing them warmer appears to produce toxins perhaps
(no proof) causing the leaves to turn yellow. CJM Pk flasks, kept
at 65 to 70 F, do not have this yellowing problem.
Pk seedlings can be compotted at a very early stage
and do well, even at higher temperatures than my own recommended
Intermediate temps {The plants naturally grow at 1900 meters above sea
level (6235 feet)}.
In my compots, Pk seedlings stay a healthy
green at temperatures around 65F and grow well. I also have some compots
at 80F, occasionally reaching 90 and 95F. These stay a healthy green but
grow slower than those at the lower temps.
My compotted Pk seedlings range in size from
1/2 to 3 inches. Even the 1/4 inch size Pk seedlings are
surviving and growing in NZ sphagnum moss. You must follow a few basic culture
rules for this species, but isn't that true for many orchid
species?
Bill, contrary to what you predict will happen,
I vision Pk species and hybrids on the benches of every Phrag
loving grower in the world, except those who consider big flowers ugly, as
one of my friends does.
When you say Silva, you probably mean well known
Peruvian orchid collector Manuel Arias Silva, who is not connected with CJM at
all.
To anyone contemplating purchasing legal Pk
seedlings, I guarantee that the CJM Pk seedlings are true Pk and easy
to grow when you follow a few basic steps.
Peter
___
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[OGD] Pk flasks, seedlings
Cody, I have also seen the Pk prices you talk about. Did you read the terms? The ones you are talking about do come from Peru's legal Pk lab # 2 and, as far as I know, will not be available until March 2007, for the owner signed a business contract with the vendor that he would not sell the seedlings for 2 years from date of purchase. Let me tell you that the first Pk seedlings coming from Peru's legal Pk laboratory #1, operated by Alfredo Manrique are now in the USA and should be available from Glen Decker, possibly in 2006. You will have to contact him, or wait for the first ones to become available in Canada. In a few months Alfredo's Pk flasks are expected in Canada and the seedlings will go on sale as soon as they are ready. I expect the prices to be very reasonable. Peter Cody: I was quite surprised at the prices one certain orchid nursery was offeringPk hybrids for...$250 US and if it was an international order, it had to beat least $1000 US. OMG people, where is the reality in this? Does thatnursery think so many people have the money for a plant costing that much?Maybe it's just an ego trip to be able to say ' I've got a Pk hybrid, haveyou gotten yours yet?" ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
Re: [OGD] Pk
> I must admit though, since it's likely already gone from it's native > habitat, it's good too see some being hybridized and kept alive. Yeah, but if it is already gone from its native habitat, that is only because so many people were obsessed with hybridizing it and keeping it alive at home. I haven't heard of condos or highways being built on Pk hillsides, just thousands of obsessed orchidists talking about how amazing the plant is.We orchid growers haven't come out of this situation smelling like roses. Note also that the hillsides were stripped long before artificially propagated plants could possibly have been generated in large numbers, so we can't blame CITES for preventing legal trade this time. We have seen the enemy and he is us. Nick -- Nicholas Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk
I was quite surprised at the prices one certain orchid nursery was offering Pk hybrids for...$250 US and if it was an international order, it had to be at least $1000 US. OMG people, where is the reality in this? Does that nursery think so many people have the money for a plant costing that much? Maybe it's just an ego trip to be able to say ' I've got a Pk hybrid, have you gotten yours yet?" Likely in a few years time, things will settle down. Yes, I'd like a plant of PK, but I sure as hell am not gonna pay THAT much for it! I think the nursery is bragging, just trying to openly say 'we have them, we've paid the money and now you should if you want one...no thanks, I'll wait. I must admit though, since it's likely already gone from it's native habitat, it's good too see some being hybridized and kept alive. But the price for a plant? I just can't se paying that much for it. Cody in Canada, where I've got tonnes of orchids blooming under my light! ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] PK .... Is enough please!!!!
>From long time and a lot of time many orchidists have invested in P. kovachii. I think there are thousands of orchids species and different topics to be analyzed in this forum. George is in the jail, Manuel Arias is very, very sick and his reputation underground. Are there another things that Manuel and his family must to pay? Kathy, (the George's wife) destroyed the George's Greenhouse and does not want him to have anything to do with orchids or orchid people. I can't understand. We live at the same world, we have in comun the same hobby. Yesterday, I called with Mrs. Eumelia (The Manuel's wife) and he told me the healt of Manuel is deteriorated. Also, she let me know INRENA athorized them for sale only flasks of PK accompanied with a cites permit. I don't find the way to still with this steril discussion and this forum is becoming only in discussion on P. kovachii. We're tired of the same thing for more than one year. We need more creative brains I like when somebody asking for important subject (not kovachii). Is enough please! César Fernández Avenida España Urbanización Campo Alegre Nº 0-229 San Cristóbal, Estado Táchira- Venezuela Cell: 0414-706.6509 Phone: 011-58-276-356.3830 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk genetic test
Peter O'Byrne who said: >If the Peruvian authorities (or anyone else) wanted to demonstrate the>illegality of an individual plant, they could do so, and will be in a>position to do so for generations to come. Peter you are absolutely right! >The real question is, will they want to ? INRENA sat on their collective asses for one full year, from the day Kovach brought his smuggled Pk plant to USA. During that year the Pk habitats were stripped bare, and thousands of illegally collected Pk's left the country right under their noses. Right after this year had past, INRENA then assigned the protection of Pk to Manuel Arias. For my Peruvian friends, who know Manuel Arias better than any of you who praise his virtues, as well as for me, this was the irony of all ironies! INRENA has yet to acknowledge, publicly, that Manuel Arias Silva was convicted and sentenced in the USA for smuggling Phragmipediums out of Peru. The Peruvian government, by providing Manuel Arias Silva with a substitute passport for the one the USDOJ had confiscated, played the biggest part in Manuel's escape from the USA. My answer to your question is, "NO!!" ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk seedlings in vitro - restriction?
Dear Keith, please re-read the passage of the CITES regulations Peter (Croezen) posted on this forum. Please point out to us where it says that seedlings in vitro produced from "illegal" parents would not be freely tradable. Although I admit, that English is not my native tongue, I like to believe that my knowledge on the English language is sufficient to be able to note that no such restriction was sighted by me ... but maybe your eyesight is better than mine. regards Guido Prof. Dr. Guido J. Braem Naunheimer Str. 17 35633 Lahnau Deutschland/Germany ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk, thank you!
Thanks to everyone who has responded to my inquiry. I appreciate clearing up some of the confusion, though I think we are doomed to be mired in it for quite some time to come. Heather ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk and CITES and the 2 years contract
Hi list, I'm afraid there is soem confusion/mixup here. My understanding from the various contributions to this list is that the shipping of 'List I seedlings in a flask' between countries is not forbidden/hampered by the CITES regulations. This means that such an act complies with CITES regulations and is therfor allowed. In practice this should mean that the purchaser/owner of the flask in the USA, or elsewhere is legally safe with respect to the possession of such a flask with said content. Quite another thing is the 2 years contract. This has nothing to do with CITES whatsoever. This is a commercial contract between 2 contract parties with the said flask as the subject of the contract. This 2 years contract places restrictions on the use of, and acting with the flask by the purchaser in question. Of course this 2 years contract is legally binding, irrespective where the underwriters are, or live. Again, this 2 years contract has nothing to do with CITES, but is a commercial agreement between 2 parties describing restrictive conditions on goods sold. The question always is whether in a case like this a selling party will, want, or is able to enforce the contract conditions if the purchasing party is violating the contract conditions. Met vriendelijke groet, Guus Möhlmann Yours Sincerely, MöhltiMedia Gustaaf R. Möhlmann http://www.mohltimedia.com ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
[OGD] Pk seedlings and plants
Dear Folks, what Peter Croezen has been saying is fully correct. Seedlings of Phragmipedium in flasks (= in vitro) are legal, no matter where the parents come from, no matter where, by whom and from whom they were purchased or obtained. They can be marketed without restriction in any given country and from any given country to any other given country, at any time. CITES simply does not apply (and Peter has given you the text to prove it). Thus the paper signed by Jerry Fischer or anyone else agreeing to hold the seedlings for "x" time is worthless, meaningless etc. (and I want to see anyone spend money enforcing a worthless piece of paper). Of course mature plants are in the USA and in Europe. However, the great numbers that have been said to have reached Europe in the past are wrong. Of course I will not disclose any details, but there are "some" adult plants in various countries in Europe (as there are in the USA and Canada). The "release" of the seedlings with the INRENA papers is good and amusing. Good because now anyone can have his seedlings surface without having to admit that he/she has/had adult plants. And I would think that this will happen within the next 2 years. Amusing because the price will of course go tumbling down. The story of the besseae plants will repeat itself ... I remember the first plants of besseae coming into Germany and being sold for 2500 DM, then they soon went down to 250 DM and lower. And I am very curious when the first hybrids will show up .. And lets see who will have them surface. Jerry Fischer wrote: I think the best way the kovachii problem can be resolved is if all of the plants are tracked for 6 or 7 years. That is already impossible as there is no way to trace the adult plants that are now in the various countries and that are, of course illegal. No one will admit to having any of those and thus, the fairy tail of tracking all plants for a number of years is an illusion. Furthermore, I don't know too many commercial growers who are willing to disclose the source of their plants. And why should they? All seedlings obtained in vitro are legal . It suffices to get one flask with a receipt, wait long enough and you have legal flowering plants. As long as you can claim that they are from the flask, you can sell them legally in your country What is the moral of the story: You can't keep any plant off the market with any law, regulation, agreement, or whatever. regards Guido -- Prof. Dr. Guido J. Braem Naunheimer Str. 17 35633 Lahnau Deutschland/Germany ___ the OrchidGuide Digest (OGD) orchids@orchidguide.com http://orchidguide.com/mailman/listinfo/orchids_orchidguide.com
