Re: [osdcmy-public] [Sahana Eden] Why replace PHP with Python?

[CL Chow]

Ahmad, FYI, I'm not and won't commenting my friends nor gossiping over here.
Whatever you like to think of and interpret. Peace.

Regards,
CL Chow
"Please do not send me Microsoft Office/Apple iWork documents. Send
OpenDocument instead! http://fsf.org/campaigns/opendocument/";




On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 2:15 PM, CL Chow  wrote:

> For the moment, I would recommend Sf with Propel due to Propel's stability.
> But personally I prefer Doctrine more, the learning curve is less steep and
> it is the one that bears most similarity to Active Record too, but currently
> it still lacks quite a lot of essential functions most notable Relational
> Database's Constraints (else, it works great!!! and I'm actually using
> Doctrine now for my projects) . Both next version of Propel and Doctrine has
> huge improvement but are still under development. Doctrine 2.0 will fix and
> add most of the support, the most interesting features for me so far is the
> database batch processing. You can look at their blogs for more detail.
> Propel starting version 1.4 will bear similarity to Active Records but still
> not implemented to the current version of Symfony(1.4), hence it's easier to
> learn and use. But in the long run, I would prefer Doctrine because of the
> doctrine's development teams are actually from symfony's. If you want, you
> can use Zend's Db Active Records in Symfony, But I haven't tried that XD
>
> Regards,
> CL Chow
> "Please do not send me Microsoft Office/Apple iWork documents. Send
> OpenDocument instead! http://fsf.org/campaigns/opendocument/";
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Azril Nazli Alias 
> wrote:
>
>> Cl Chow,Which one dod you prefer, SF with Doctrine or SF with
>> Propelwhich one have the nearest similaratity to RoR Active Record ?
>>
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Re: [osdcmy-public] [Sahana Eden] Why replace PHP with Python?

[CL Chow]

For the moment, I would recommend Sf with Propel due to Propel's stability.
But personally I prefer Doctrine more, the learning curve is less steep and
it is the one that bears most similarity to Active Record too, but currently
it still lacks quite a lot of essential functions most notable Relational
Database's Constraints (else, it works great!!! and I'm actually using
Doctrine now for my projects) . Both next version of Propel and Doctrine has
huge improvement but are still under development. Doctrine 2.0 will fix and
add most of the support, the most interesting features for me so far is the
database batch processing. You can look at their blogs for more detail.
Propel starting version 1.4 will bear similarity to Active Records but still
not implemented to the current version of Symfony(1.4), hence it's easier to
learn and use. But in the long run, I would prefer Doctrine because of the
doctrine's development teams are actually from symfony's. If you want, you
can use Zend's Db Active Records in Symfony, But I haven't tried that XD

Regards,
CL Chow
"Please do not send me Microsoft Office/Apple iWork documents. Send
OpenDocument instead! http://fsf.org/campaigns/opendocument/";




On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Azril Nazli Alias wrote:

> Cl Chow,Which one dod you prefer, SF with Doctrine or SF with
> Propelwhich one have the nearest similaratity to RoR Active Record ?
>
> --
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Re: [osdcmy-public] [Sahana Eden] Why replace PHP with Python?

[Azril Nazli Alias]

Cl Chow,Which one dod you prefer, SF with Doctrine or SF with
Propelwhich one have the nearest similaratity to RoR Active Record ?

-- 
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Re: [osdcmy-public] [Sahana Eden] Why replace PHP with Python?

[Boh Yap]

hi,

most will know, I'm not a PHP user but a Python guy..

I think for their team to and make such a decision is not a trivial
one. They must have encountered issues that caused them to think that
way & make those decisions.

Also, I think, SAHANA is a very mission-critical system, and you are
usually implementing it under stressful conditions (there is a
disaster going on)!

Also its the type of app where you have to setup & config very
quickly, and needs to be stable. Who knows they may also need to make
modifications on the fly...

Comparing Facebook and SAHANA, is not comparing apples to apples, if
SAHANA fails, ppl may die... facebook? I that fails maybe there'll be
better productivity all round ;-) and the moral motivations are
entirely different, one grp is trying to help others, MZukerburg just
wants to control the world!

;-)

but its good PR for Python.


On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:53 PM, CL Chow  wrote:
> I'm a PHP guy but I agree most of the statement. And don't forget facebook
> actually compile their php codes to c++
> Trying to make a highly scalable PHP application is a pain. With all the
> fuss of setting up caching mechanism, load balancing.
> And not forgetting apache.
> The one who wrote the article is a PHP guy and I do think that he concluded
> most of our pain. Well, except for the seperation of logic because most of
> us are practicing MVC or at least using a MVC framework.
> And yes, and I do use frameworks like Symfony and Zend.
> ps
> For me, the only usable PHP version now is 5.3 but everyone is reluctant to
> change(Luckily Zend and Symfony are going to 5.3). I don't understand why
> some still relies on those deprecated malpracticed features.
> Regards,
> CL Chow
> "Please do not send me Microsoft Office/Apple iWork documents. Send
> OpenDocument instead! http://fsf.org/campaigns/opendocument/";
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Hasanuddin Abu Bakar 
> wrote:
>>
>> large apps and large group of users are 2 different things.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> On 6 Aug 2010, at 22:46, Nuhaa All Bakry  wrote:
>>
>> havent been to their website yet but this kinda harsh and the person who
>> wrote it must hv had never wrote in php. large app? there's facebook. we use
>> frameworks these days, there's ur obj oriented n well separated logic n
>> presentation, and RAD for that matter...
>>
>> nuhaa
>> Sent from my phone
>> On 06/08/2010, at 10:59, CL Chow  wrote:
>>
>> Sahana, a FOSS disaster Management System,
>> Project homepage: sahanafoundation.org/
>> Wikil: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahana_FOSS_Disaster_Management_System
>> Originally written in PHP(which is now call Agasti) has recently branch a
>> Python version called Sahana Eden.
>> Here are some interesting reasons from the Eden developers according to
>> the wiki.
>> As quoted from the project's wiki
>> eden.sahanafoundation.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestionsPython
>> == Why replace PHP with Python? ==
>> We believe we can attract more developers if we change from PHP to Python.
>> PHP is not a good language for building large, maintainable applications:
>> http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/index.html
>>  * especially when using it to write out complex Javascript (the syntaxes
>> are always tripping you up)
>>  * doesn't enforce Object Orientation
>>  * poor separation of Presentation & Code
>> Python is fully Object Oriented ('everything is an Object')
>> Python is an interpreted language, similar to PHP & relatively easy for
>> developers to adapt to.
>> Java would be a reasonable choice, but the barrier to entry with Java is
>> much harder - setting up the compiler environment, etc
>>  * this doesn't fit the RAD needs of the project.
>>  * we can still access any useful Java libs via Jython:
>> http://www.jython.org/
>> Ruby-on-Rails might be a good choice, but that's primarily for Web2.0 apps
>> still & Sahana is more than just that.[[BR]]
>> Performance is also worse than for Python:
>> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python&lang2=ruby
>> Python also supports a wide range of libraries for adding extra
>> functionality, including in the GIS space:[[BR]]
>> (There are no PHP libraries for GIS)
>>  * http://trac.gispython.org/lab/wiki
>>  * http://featureserver.org
>>  * http://tilecache.org
>>  * http://mapfish.org
>> Python is also the language in which the support infrastructure is
>> written: Bzr, Trac
>>  * ESR's take on Python: http://pythonology.org/success&story=esr
>>  * Python as an Agile language:
>> http://agiletesting.blogspot.com/2005/02/python-as-agile-language.html
>>  * Python is fun!: http://xkcd.com/353/
>> 
>> Enjoy ;)
>> Regards,
>> CL Chow
>>
>>
>> --
>> Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/
>>
>> Facebook Fan page
>>
>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577
>>
>> http://www.facebook.com/OSDC.my
>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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Re: [osdcmy-public] [Sahana Eden] Why replace PHP with Python?

[CL Chow]

I'm a PHP guy but I agree most of the statement. And don't forget facebook
actually compile their php codes to c++
Trying to make a highly scalable PHP application is a pain. With all the
fuss of setting up caching mechanism, load balancing.
And not forgetting apache.
The one who wrote the article is a PHP guy and I do think that he concluded
most of our pain. Well, except for the seperation of logic because most of
us are practicing MVC or at least using a MVC framework.

And yes, and I do use frameworks like Symfony and Zend.

ps
For me, the only usable PHP version now is 5.3 but everyone is reluctant to
change(Luckily Zend and Symfony are going to 5.3). I don't understand why
some still relies on those deprecated malpracticed features.

Regards,
CL Chow
"Please do not send me Microsoft Office/Apple iWork documents. Send
OpenDocument instead! http://fsf.org/campaigns/opendocument/";




On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Hasanuddin Abu Bakar
wrote:

> large apps and large group of users are 2 different things.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 6 Aug 2010, at 22:46, Nuhaa All Bakry  wrote:
>
> havent been to their website yet but this kinda harsh and the person who
> wrote it must hv had never wrote in php. large app? there's facebook. we use
> frameworks these days, there's ur obj oriented n well separated logic n
> presentation, and RAD for that matter...
>
> nuhaa
>
> Sent from my phone
>
> On 06/08/2010, at 10:59, CL Chow < 
> klrkdek...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sahana, a FOSS disaster Management System,
> Project homepage:  
> 
> sahanafoundation.org/
> Wikil: 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahana_FOSS_Disaster_Management_System
>
> Originally written in PHP(which is now call Agasti) has recently branch a
> Python version called Sahana Eden.
> Here are some interesting reasons from the Eden developers according to the
> wiki.
>
> As quoted from the project's wiki
> 
> eden.sahanafoundation.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestionsPython
>
> == Why replace PHP with Python? ==
> We believe we can attract more developers if we change from PHP to Python.
>
> PHP is not a good language for building large, maintainable applications:
>  
> 
> http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/index.html
>  * especially when using it to write out complex Javascript (the syntaxes
> are always tripping you up)
>  * doesn't enforce Object Orientation
>  * poor separation of Presentation & Code
>
> Python is fully Object Oriented ('everything is an Object')
>
> Python is an interpreted language, similar to PHP & relatively easy for
> developers to adapt to.
>
> Java would be a reasonable choice, but the barrier to entry with Java is
> much harder - setting up the compiler environment, etc
>  * this doesn't fit the RAD needs of the project.
>  * we can still access any useful Java libs via Jython:
>  http://www.jython.org/
>
> Ruby-on-Rails might be a good choice, but that's primarily for Web2.0 apps
> still & Sahana is more than just that.[[BR]]
> Performance is also worse than for Python:
> 
> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python&lang2=ruby
>
> Python also supports a wide range of libraries for adding extra
> functionality, including in the GIS space:[[BR]]
> (There are no PHP libraries for GIS)
>  * 
> http://trac.gispython.org/lab/wiki
>  *  
> http://featureserver.org
>  *  http://tilecache.org
>  *  http://mapfish.org
>
>  Python is also the language in which the support infrastructure is
> written: Bzr, Trac
>
>  * ESR's take on Python: 
> 
> http://pythonology.org/success&story=esr
>  * Python as an Agile language:
> 
> http://agiletesting.blogspot.com/2005/02/python-as-agile-language.html
>  * Python is fun!:  
> http://xkcd.com/353/
> 
>
> Enjoy ;)
>
> Regards,
> CL Chow
>
>
>  --
> Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia 
> 

Re: [osdcmy-public] [Sahana Eden] Why replace PHP with Python?

[Hasanuddin Abu Bakar]

large apps and large group of users are 2 different things.

Sent from my iPhone

On 6 Aug 2010, at 22:46, Nuhaa All Bakry  wrote:

havent been to their website yet but this kinda harsh and the person who
wrote it must hv had never wrote in php. large app? there's facebook. we use
frameworks these days, there's ur obj oriented n well separated logic n
presentation, and RAD for that matter...

nuhaa

Sent from my phone

On 06/08/2010, at 10:59, CL Chow  wrote:

Sahana, a FOSS disaster Management System,
Project homepage:  sahanafoundation.org/
Wikil: 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahana_FOSS_Disaster_Management_System

Originally written in PHP(which is now call Agasti) has recently branch a
Python version called Sahana Eden.
Here are some interesting reasons from the Eden developers according to the
wiki.

As quoted from the project's wiki

eden.sahanafoundation.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestionsPython

== Why replace PHP with Python? ==
We believe we can attract more developers if we change from PHP to Python.

PHP is not a good language for building large, maintainable applications:
 
http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/index.html
 * especially when using it to write out complex Javascript (the syntaxes
are always tripping you up)
 * doesn't enforce Object Orientation
 * poor separation of Presentation & Code

Python is fully Object Oriented ('everything is an Object')

Python is an interpreted language, similar to PHP & relatively easy for
developers to adapt to.

Java would be a reasonable choice, but the barrier to entry with Java is
much harder - setting up the compiler environment, etc
 * this doesn't fit the RAD needs of the project.
 * we can still access any useful Java libs via Jython:
http://www.jython.org/

Ruby-on-Rails might be a good choice, but that's primarily for Web2.0 apps
still & Sahana is more than just that.[[BR]]
Performance is also worse than for Python:

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python&lang2=ruby

Python also supports a wide range of libraries for adding extra
functionality, including in the GIS space:[[BR]]
(There are no PHP libraries for GIS)
 * http://trac.gispython.org/lab/wiki
 * http://featureserver.org
 * http://tilecache.org
 * http://mapfish.org

 Python is also the language in which the support infrastructure is written:
Bzr, Trac

 * ESR's take on Python: 
http://pythonology.org/success&story=esr
 * Python as an Agile language:

http://agiletesting.blogspot.com/2005/02/python-as-agile-language.html
 * Python is fun!: http://xkcd.com/353/


Enjoy ;)

Regards,
CL Chow


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Re: [osdcmy-public] [Sahana Eden] Why replace PHP with Python?

[Nuhaa All Bakry]

havent been to their website yet but this kinda harsh and the person who wrote 
it must hv had never wrote in php. large app? there's facebook. we use 
frameworks these days, there's ur obj oriented n well separated logic n 
presentation, and RAD for that matter...

nuhaa

Sent from my phone

On 06/08/2010, at 10:59, CL Chow  wrote:

> Sahana, a FOSS disaster Management System, 
> Project homepage: sahanafoundation.org/
> Wikil: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahana_FOSS_Disaster_Management_System
> 
> Originally written in PHP(which is now call Agasti) has recently branch a 
> Python version called Sahana Eden.
> Here are some interesting reasons from the Eden developers according to the 
> wiki.
> 
> As quoted from the project's wiki
> eden.sahanafoundation.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestionsPython
> 
> == Why replace PHP with Python? ==
> We believe we can attract more developers if we change from PHP to Python.
> 
> PHP is not a good language for building large, maintainable applications:
> http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/index.html
>  * especially when using it to write out complex Javascript (the syntaxes are 
> always tripping you up)
>  * doesn't enforce Object Orientation
>  * poor separation of Presentation & Code
> 
> Python is fully Object Oriented ('everything is an Object')
> 
> Python is an interpreted language, similar to PHP & relatively easy for 
> developers to adapt to.
> 
> Java would be a reasonable choice, but the barrier to entry with Java is much 
> harder - setting up the compiler environment, etc
>  * this doesn't fit the RAD needs of the project.
>  * we can still access any useful Java libs via Jython: http://www.jython.org/
> 
> Ruby-on-Rails might be a good choice, but that's primarily for Web2.0 apps 
> still & Sahana is more than just that.[[BR]]
> Performance is also worse than for Python: 
> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python&lang2=ruby
> 
> Python also supports a wide range of libraries for adding extra 
> functionality, including in the GIS space:[[BR]]
> (There are no PHP libraries for GIS)
>  * http://trac.gispython.org/lab/wiki
>  * http://featureserver.org
>  * http://tilecache.org
>  * http://mapfish.org
> 
> Python is also the language in which the support infrastructure is written: 
> Bzr, Trac
> 
>  * ESR's take on Python: http://pythonology.org/success&story=esr
>  * Python as an Agile language: 
> http://agiletesting.blogspot.com/2005/02/python-as-agile-language.html
>  * Python is fun!: http://xkcd.com/353/
> 
> 
> Enjoy ;)
> 
> Regards,
> CL Chow
> 
> 
> -- 
> Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/
>  
> Facebook Fan page
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> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=98685301577
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[osdcmy-public] [Sahana Eden] Why replace PHP with Python?

[CL Chow]

Sahana, a FOSS disaster Management System,
Project homepage: sahanafoundation.org/
Wikil: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahana_FOSS_Disaster_Management_System

Originally written in PHP(which is now call Agasti) has recently branch a
Python version called Sahana Eden.
Here are some interesting reasons from the Eden developers according to the
wiki.

As quoted from the project's wiki
eden.sahanafoundation.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestionsPython

== Why replace PHP with Python? ==
We believe we can attract more developers if we change from PHP to Python.

PHP is not a good language for building large, maintainable applications:
http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/index.html
 * especially when using it to write out complex Javascript (the syntaxes
are always tripping you up)
 * doesn't enforce Object Orientation
 * poor separation of Presentation & Code

Python is fully Object Oriented ('everything is an Object')

Python is an interpreted language, similar to PHP & relatively easy for
developers to adapt to.

Java would be a reasonable choice, but the barrier to entry with Java is
much harder - setting up the compiler environment, etc
 * this doesn't fit the RAD needs of the project.
 * we can still access any useful Java libs via Jython:
http://www.jython.org/

Ruby-on-Rails might be a good choice, but that's primarily for Web2.0 apps
still & Sahana is more than just that.[[BR]]
Performance is also worse than for Python:
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python&lang2=ruby

Python also supports a wide range of libraries for adding extra
functionality, including in the GIS space:[[BR]]
(There are no PHP libraries for GIS)
 * http://trac.gispython.org/lab/wiki
 * http://featureserver.org
 * http://tilecache.org
 * http://mapfish.org

Python is also the language in which the support infrastructure is written:
Bzr, Trac

 * ESR's take on Python: http://pythonology.org/success&story=esr
 * Python as an Agile language:
http://agiletesting.blogspot.com/2005/02/python-as-agile-language.html
 * Python is fun!: http://xkcd.com/353/


Enjoy ;)

Regards,
CL Chow

-- 
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