Re: WinRT vs World+Dog
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Joseph Cooney joseph.coo...@gmail.comwrote: Wpf was unable to ditch the ui thread and message pump stuff because it caused problems with the clip board (and possibly other things). Probably the same thing with WinRT. No, WinRT is better, Steve promised us this new world is going to be filled with speed and performance... why would he lie JosephWHY!!!. I got that joy joy down in my heart..where? down in my heart... the sun will come out...tommoz...you can bet your bottom dollar On 28/09/2011, at 11:24 AM, David Connors da...@codify.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:08 AM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com david.k...@microsoft.com wrote: If you think that WinRT got rid of UI threads and message pumps, you’d be wrong. :) ** That is really disappointing. -- *David Connors* | da...@codify.com | www.codify.com Codify Pty Ltd Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact
Re: WinRT vs World+Dog
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Preet Sangha preetsan...@gmail.comwrote: On 28 September 2011 14:24, David Connors da...@codify.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:08 AM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.comwrote: If you think that WinRT got rid of UI threads and message pumps, you’d be wrong. :) ** That is really disappointing. Why? The technologies are tried and tested and have years of stability behind them. If you watch the build 875 video you'll see how MS leverage the existing COM infrastructure to bridge the worlds. Personally I think using existing working stuff is what makes the new stuff interesting. IMNSHO the problem with window messaging is that the user interface in an application is essentially treated as owner-draw, including operations like moving a window etc. Every application is its own state machine and there is a huge amount of potential for balls ups. One would wonder what percentage of Application X has stopped responding (i.e. its message pump is screwed and it is not processing messages sent to it) are caused by defects that could otherwise be mitigated if that sort of work was taken off the hands of the programmers. My guess is a lot. We should really be in a world now where the UI is supervised with most event handling done by a well-written and bug free runtime. XAML has a lot of the capabilities to do this by virtue of the fact that it allows you to do pretty big chunks of the UI in a declarative way - but in the .NET world it is overlayed over the same old crap. I haven't had a chance to go through the Build content in detail but it looks like I assumed too much. -- *David Connors* | da...@codify.com | www.codify.com Codify Pty Ltd Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact
WinRT vs World+Dog
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 4:40 PM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.comwrote: Beside, I'm not sure why the entire .NET world should be considered legacy/off-topic once Win8 releases. We are just about to release Windows Phone 7.5, Silverlight 5 and just announced .NET Framework 4.5. The writing is on the wall. Win32 is beyond dated and chunks of .NET are based on it. People who say 93 are being kind and probably have not looked at how closely it matches Win16. I mean Ex, ExEx, Ex2 calls - I don't even know if there were any software architects involved in the creation of Win32. The knock on effect for .NET has been that the very-non-asynchronous nature of Win32 has caused stuff like WPF to have behaviours where the UI thread can block the render thread to stop story boards from running, etc. Window handles and message pumps? Please - this is 2011. I, for one, welcome our new WinRT overlords and look forward to an expedited demise of the rest of the API/UI kit confusion on the Windows platform. Something had to give in light of the relative sanity of Cocoa/OSX + CocoaTouch/OSX and the corresponding market success. I just wish they didn't add this HTML/JS stuff to Win8 - it makes little sense. David. PS: Has anyone had a peak under the kimono to see if it really IS not based on Win32? [?] -- *David Connors* | da...@codify.com | www.codify.com Codify Pty Ltd Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact 360.gif
Re: WinRT vs World+Dog
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 6:35 AM, David Connors da...@codify.com wrote: I, for one, welcome our new WinRT overlords and look forward to an expedited demise of the rest of the API/UI kit confusion on the Windows platform. Something had to give in light of the relative sanity of Cocoa/OSX + CocoaTouch/OSX and the corresponding market success. lol All Hail the New Steve I am hopeful to become an early disciple that way when they rule you all i will gain favour with our new lordso far...not so good at the whole gaining favor part...he knows me...but probably not in the best light...get it..Silverlight Downgrading caffeine... I just wish they didn't add this HTML/JS stuff to Win8 - it makes little sense. To all of us no, it makes no sense to the reviews of the business internally where they are all currently salivating at the potential to gain hordes of new customers into the Microsoft family via the trojan that which is HTML/JS Happy Days :)
RE: WinRT vs World+Dog
If you think that WinRT got rid of UI threads and message pumps, you’d be wrong. :) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:35 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: WinRT vs World+Dog On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 4:40 PM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.commailto:david.k...@microsoft.com wrote: Beside, I'm not sure why the entire .NET world should be considered legacy/off-topic once Win8 releases. We are just about to release Windows Phone 7.5, Silverlight 5 and just announced .NET Framework 4.5. The writing is on the wall. Win32 is beyond dated and chunks of .NET are based on it. People who say 93 are being kind and probably have not looked at how closely it matches Win16. I mean Ex, ExEx, Ex2 calls - I don't even know if there were any software architects involved in the creation of Win32. The knock on effect for .NET has been that the very-non-asynchronous nature of Win32 has caused stuff like WPF to have behaviours where the UI thread can block the render thread to stop story boards from running, etc. Window handles and message pumps? Please - this is 2011. I, for one, welcome our new WinRT overlords and look forward to an expedited demise of the rest of the API/UI kit confusion on the Windows platform. Something had to give in light of the relative sanity of Cocoa/OSX + CocoaTouch/OSX and the corresponding market success. I just wish they didn't add this HTML/JS stuff to Win8 - it makes little sense. David. PS: Has anyone had a peak under the kimono to see if it really IS not based on Win32? [cid:image001.gif@01CC7D40.59FB4480] -- David Connors | da...@codify.commailto:da...@codify.com | www.codify.comhttp://www.codify.com Codify Pty Ltd Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact inline: image001.gif
Re: WinRT vs World+Dog
I thought so, I don't think it's anything different to today, what the Windows team has learnt and taken is to mandate asynchronous calls for all Metro apps (A silverlight thing), sandbox and restrict file access, bring more friendly looking API's (A .NET thing). Correct me if I'm wrong, everything seems about the same, there's just more fixated rules around developing Metro/WinRT apps. Having not had a chance to even see the keynote still, can anyone tell me if the WinRT API's are accessible from legacy .NET applications? Should be the same right? On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:08 AM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.comwrote: If you think that WinRT got rid of UI threads and message pumps, you’d be wrong. :) ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Connors *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:35 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* WinRT vs World+Dog ** ** On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 4:40 PM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com wrote: Beside, I'm not sure why the entire .NET world should be considered legacy/off-topic once Win8 releases. We are just about to release Windows Phone 7.5, Silverlight 5 and just announced .NET Framework 4.5. ** ** The writing is on the wall. Win32 is beyond dated and chunks of .NET are based on it. People who say 93 are being kind and probably have not looked at how closely it matches Win16. I mean Ex, ExEx, Ex2 calls - I don't even know if there were any software architects involved in the creation of Win32. The knock on effect for .NET has been that the very-non-asynchronous nature of Win32 has caused stuff like WPF to have behaviours where the UI thread can block the render thread to stop story boards from running, etc. Window handles and message pumps? Please - this is 2011. ** ** I, for one, welcome our new WinRT overlords and look forward to an expedited demise of the rest of the API/UI kit confusion on the Windows platform. Something had to give in light of the relative sanity of Cocoa/OSX + CocoaTouch/OSX and the corresponding market success. ** ** I just wish they didn't add this HTML/JS stuff to Win8 - it makes little sense. ** ** David. ** ** PS: Has anyone had a peak under the kimono to see if it really IS not based on Win32? ** ** -- *David Connors* | da...@codify.com | www.codify.com Codify Pty Ltd Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact image001.gif
Re: WinRT vs World+Dog
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:08 AM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.comwrote: If you think that WinRT got rid of UI threads and message pumps, you’d be wrong. :) ** That is really disappointing. -- *David Connors* | da...@codify.com | www.codify.com Codify Pty Ltd Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact
Re: WinRT vs World+Dog
On 28 September 2011 14:24, David Connors da...@codify.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:08 AM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.comwrote: If you think that WinRT got rid of UI threads and message pumps, you’d be wrong. :) ** That is really disappointing. Why? The technologies are tried and tested and have years of stability behind them. If you watch the build 875 video you'll see how MS leverage the existing COM infrastructure to bridge the worlds. Personally I think using existing working stuff is what makes the new stuff interesting. -- regards, Preet, Overlooking the Ocean, Auckland
Re: WinRT vs World+Dog
Wpf was unable to ditch the ui thread and message pump stuff because it caused problems with the clip board (and possibly other things). Probably the same thing with WinRT. On 28/09/2011, at 11:24 AM, David Connors da...@codify.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:08 AM, David Kean david.k...@microsoft.com wrote: If you think that WinRT got rid of UI threads and message pumps, you’d be wrong. :) That is really disappointing. -- David Connors | da...@codify.com | www.codify.com Codify Pty Ltd Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact
