Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Could I bother you for a copy too?? Thankyou :) Holly JoFromOz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Janet Fraser wrote: This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my care packages with anyone who could use them. Best, J yes please! Jo (RM) -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
hi iam interested in your care packages also thanks as iam a bach of mid graduate working in alarge hospital thanks a lot Tania Laurie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would also love the see your care packages. Tania - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my care packages with anyone who could use them. Best, J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear all, I have put the information on my forum. You don't need to be a member to access them or cut and paste from the site. Bear in mind that we advertise midwives and birth attendants/doulas for free here so if you'd like us to advertise you, we recommend you join us! We love having students join too! http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11 Package 1 http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=200 Package 2 http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=201 Package 3 - Janet's own documents http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=202 Joyous Birth Home Birth Forum - a world first! http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/ Accessing Artemis Birth Trauma Recovery http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/accessingartemis - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Could I bother you for a copy too?? Thankyou :) Holly JoFromOz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Janet Fraser wrote: This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my care packages with anyone who could use them. Best, J yes please! Jo (RM) -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear all, I have put the information on my forum. You don't need to be a member to access them or cut and paste from the site. Bear in mind that we advertise midwives and birth attendants/doulas for free here so if you'd like us to advertise you, we recommend you join us! We love having students join too! http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11 Package 1 http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=200 Package 2 http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=201 Package 3 - Janet's own documents http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=202 Joyous Birth Home Birth Forum - a world first! http://www.joyousbirth.info/forums/ Accessing Artemis Birth Trauma Recovery http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/accessingartemis - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage hi iam interested in your care packages also thanks as iam a bach of mid graduate working in alarge hospital thanks a lot Tania Laurie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would also love the see your care packages. Tania - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my care packages with anyone who could use them. Best, J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Would love to see your care packages Janet. Will you post them? Sally - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my "care packages" with anyone who could use them. Best, J
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Janet, In what format are your care packages? Are they easily downoadable? If so I would love to look at them. Thanx Janet. Jeannine [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Wow what a response you've had Janet. I've now read thru all postings and have found your packages. So disregard my request. Many many thanx. Jeannine -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Thanks Mary, Deniseand Janet for your
interesting articles and web sites.
I have always had a special interest in the third
stage of labour and it is depressing to realise how much good evidence there is
'out there' written by doctors but universally ignored by doctors. One
line in particular spoke to me "if you change physiology, you create
pathology"
Nowwe have the added pressure of the
insidious practice of cord blood gas analysis, which means depriving the babies
of their cord blood as soon as is possible in order to send a section to the
blood gas machine for immediate analysis to check their levels! This is
being done routinely at our tertiary hospital, and is only a matter of time
before us smaller units follow suit. I'm sure the litigation-fearful
doctors will convince the hospital to buy an expensive machine for this too. (
they managed to spend $80,000 on a bladder scanner which is a bone of
contention, apart from being very innacurate on post-partum women, due to fluid
collection in the uterus, and quite useless over caesarean scars,it is
eroding further the use of good clinical midwiferyskills)
I also worry greatly about the new practice of
collecting stem cells to be frozen for a possible future need. To me it
seems to be purely driven from a commercial point. The parents are
convinced that they should spend lots of money to protect their child from an
unforseen future, when a little more attention to their physiological needs at
birth might be a better insurance for future health. If these cells are so
valuable, why are we trapping them in the placenta and throwing them away,
instead of letting the child benefit from them at birth as nature
intended?
Why is it that only the 'bad' trials that 'prove'
intervention is a good thing get accepted, when there is so much evidence
against it?
The discussion about possible links between early
cord clamping and autism and other developmental disorders is very interesting
too. I have much interest in this, as disability is part of my life too,
and have often wondered why we seem to have such an epidemic of ADD, Autism,
Behavioral problems and so on. It just seems so crazy to interfere with
the process when it is obviously so poorly understood by so many 'experts' most
of whom will not have ever even seen the process uninterfered with.
Has anyone done a study into long-term health
issues of homebirth children and compared rates ofdisorders with hospital
born children?
Regards, Sue
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil
is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke
- Original Message -
From:
Mary
Murphy
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological
3rd stage
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/bristol.asp
Try this link Sue. Cheers,
MM
Thanks Mary - I'd like to see it -
would you post or fax to me? Fax no is 94545953 - if you don't have it
on file.
Sue
Sue I have an
article By Dr John Stevenson critiquing the Prendiville third stage
trial. The doctors wouldnt take any notice as they deregistered him
for supporting homebirth practices etc. Im sure I have it somewhere if you
want it for yourself, cheers, MM
Hi
Denise
I wanted some info that I could
use in promoting physiological 3rd stage to doctors. I am aware of
recent studies which say that oxtocin should be routine for 3rd stage, and
this seems to have been adopted almost completely in hospitals. Where
a woman chooses otherwise there is little to help support her choice within
an obstetrically managed model of care. If there are any studies out
there that could present this arguement I would like to read
them.
The post script to this birth
was that she had an induction yesterday at T+ 4 for raised BP, had a quick
labour and normal delivery, standing, oxytocin third stage, but with a
sympathetic midwife who did not 'rush' this bit. All is well and home
today, quite happy with events. I just think it's such a shame that
her opinion was opposed, fairly aggressively, I wish we saw more women
take the trouble to inform themselves as this young lady
did.
Thanks,Sue
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is
for good men to do nothing"Edmund
Burke
- Original Message -
From: Denise Hynd
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent:
Friday, June 17, 2005 6:47 AM
Subject: Re:
[ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear
Sue
Who is it you want the
evidence for woman or the Ob?The
women has accept the dr's
scaremongering
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Dear Susan and All As a non-clinician I have kept out of this discussion, although I am very interested. A midwife friend of mine mentioned that blood loss was not really measured outside the birth unit so the true loss associated with managed 3rd stage is not really known (do you also think this?). Perhaps this could be a research proposal in your obstetric managed no doubt 99% managed 3rd stage unit!!! I am unsure of the logistics of it but its worth a thought. I seem to think we get nowhere with the benefits of nature etc (ie natural birth, breastfeeding) so perhaps it is time to broadcast the negatives of the interventions very clearly. Managed vs physiological 3rd stage would be a great one as so few women understand that the jab is an intervention. Perhaps the other side of the research could be a homebirth midwives practice (where the majority of 3rd stages are physiological). I am banking on the benefits of homebirthing for my 4 soon 5. I need all the help I can get. On the breastfeeding front, not one ear infection or any sickness in all 4 vs the repeat sickness of friends with the bottle-fed (but we knew that!). Kind regards Justine
RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Congrats Justine, I didnt know you were having another baby. Best wishes, MM From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Justine Caines Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2005 5:11 PM To: OzMid List Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Dear Susan and All As a non-clinician I have kept out of this discussion, although I am very interested. A midwife friend of mine mentioned that blood loss was not really measured outside the birth unit so the true loss associated with managed 3rd stage is not really known (do you also think this?). Perhaps this could be a research proposal in your obstetric managed no doubt 99% managed 3rd stage unit!!! I am unsure of the logistics of it but its worth a thought. I seem to think we get nowhere with the benefits of nature etc (ie natural birth, breastfeeding) so perhaps it is time to broadcast the negatives of the interventions very clearly. Managed vs physiological 3rd stage would be a great one as so few women understand that the jab is an intervention. Perhaps the other side of the research could be a homebirth midwives practice (where the majority of 3rd stages are physiological). I am banking on the benefits of homebirthing for my 4 soon 5. I need all the help I can get. On the breastfeeding front, not one ear infection or any sickness in all 4 vs the repeat sickness of friends with the bottle-fed (but we knew that!). Kind regards Justine
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage I agree that blood loss is rarely measured accurately, and only takes into account initial (labour ward) loss, C/S loss is rarely even recorded. I did read somewhere that in physiological birth initial loss may appear heavier but that overall loss is less with lochia normally complete in a couple of days as opposed to a week or more, but this was anecdotal. You are right - few women realise that 'the jab' is an unecessary interference, and really don't pay it much attention, they simply don't question it or place any importance on it. Perhaps if there was some strong indication that it could be a causitive factor for disabling conditions more women would question it's use. It would be interesting to know if physiological 3rd stage produced healthier children in the long run. It seems evident to me that this must be the case but unless a definite connection is made I fear that few doctors, clients or sadly even midwives willbe moved to try to change a practice which is so deeply ingrained in our birthing culture (the vast majority who birth in hospitals). I did not question active management myself for many years but the more I learn, the less I like it's continued practice. Congratulations on your pregnancy and continued good health to your family - when is the babe due? sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: Justine Caines To: OzMid List Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Dear Susan and AllAs a non-clinician I have kept out of this discussion, although I am very interested.A midwife friend of mine mentioned that blood loss was not really measured outside the birth unit so the true loss associated with managed 3rd stage is not really known (do you also think this?). Perhaps this could be a research proposal in your obstetric managed no doubt 99% managed 3rd stage unit!!!I am unsure of the logistics of it but its worth a thought.I seem to think we get nowhere with the benefits of nature etc (ie natural birth, breastfeeding) so perhaps it is time to broadcast the negatives of the interventions very clearly. Managed vs physiological 3rd stage would be a great one as so few women understand that the jab is an intervention.Perhaps the other side of the research could be a homebirth midwives practice (where the majority of 3rd stages are physiological).I am banking on the benefits of homebirthing for my 4 soon 5. I need all the help I can get.On the breastfeeding front, not one ear infection or any sickness in all 4 vs the repeat sickness of friends with the bottle-fed (but we knew that!).Kind regardsJustine No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.9/23 - Release Date: 20/06/2005
RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
I saw a fantastic father stand up for what he believed in. In a teaching hospital they informed him that they would cut the cord immediately in order to take blood gases. When he questioned this the doctor told him that it was to ensure that the baby was well at birth so that he could not sue them. This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. The doctors soon backed off. I was inspired by his clarity. Sally Westbury
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Justine, I have read somewhere once ( have no idea where) that what you are suggesting is in fact the case. Active third stage has less loss in labour ward ( seen by the doctors( but more loss over the next 5-7 days ( not seen or measured by the doctors and rarely by the midwife unless the woman reports it as excessive and surely this will be subjective depending on what her periods have been like). Physiologic has more loss at birth but less in the next 5-7 days but by the end of this time both groups will have got rid of the amount that nature determines that woman needs to get rid of based on how much extra she has from what is the norm for her. As for ear infections I bf all my kids for at least a year and my first one had many ear infections in his first year. He also had blocked tear ducts which led me to believe that anatomically he was just kinked up in that area. He grew out of it but bf does not prevent all infections. As I was once taught stasis is the basis of infection and when a child is retaining fluid behind the drum then he or she will be more prone to infection than others. Of course as you said we know formula makes mucous etc thicker and more prone to poolong thus leading to more infections but sometimes even bf is not enough to prevent it. Andreaa On 21/06/2005, at 9:14 PM, Mary Murphy wrote: x-tad-biggerCongrats Justine, I didn’t know you were having another baby. Best wishes, MM/x-tad-bigger x-tad-bigger /x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerFrom:/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerOn Behalf Of /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerJustine Caines/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerSent:/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger Tuesday, 21 June 2005 5:11 PM/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerTo:/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger OzMid List/x-tad-bigger x-tad-biggerSubject:/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage/x-tad-bigger Dear Susan and All As a non-clinician I have kept out of this discussion, although I am very interested. A midwife friend of mine mentioned that blood loss was not really measured outside the birth unit so the true loss associated with managed 3rd stage is not really known (do you also think this?). Perhaps this could be a research proposal in your obstetric managed no doubt 99% managed 3rd stage unit!!! I am unsure of the logistics of it but it’s worth a thought. I seem to think we get nowhere with the benefits of nature etc (ie natural birth, breastfeeding) so perhaps it is time to broadcast the negatives of the interventions very clearly. Managed vs physiological 3rd stage would be a great one as so few women understand that the jab is an intervention. Perhaps the other side of the research could be a homebirth midwives practice (where the majority of 3rd stages are physiological). I am banking on the benefits of homebirthing for my 4 soon 5. I need all the help I can get. On the breastfeeding front, not one ear infection or any sickness in all 4 vs the repeat sickness of friends with the bottle-fed (but we knew that!). Kind regards Justine
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my "care packages" with anyone who could use them. Best, J
RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
I would love to see your package Janet. Love Sally
RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Hi Janet I would love a copy of your package Alan [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Wednesday, 22 June 2005 9:24 AMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my "care packages" with anyone who could use them. Best, J
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
I would also love the see your care packages. Tania - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my "care packages" with anyone who could use them. Best, J
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
me too please. Kate - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my "care packages" with anyone who could use them. Best, J
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Janet Fraser wrote: This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my "care packages" with anyone who could use them. Best, J yes please! Jo (RM)
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Yes please Jo, I would love to read the care packages Glenys [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
oops sorry Janet, didn't mean to call you Jo, Glenys
RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Me too Trish -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: 22 June 2005 09:24 To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my care packages with anyone who could use them. Best, J
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Janet, Would your care packages be appropriate for a Midwifery led unit or case load midwifery? If so I would love a copy. Thanks Sonja - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my "care packages" with anyone who could use them. Best, J
RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Better send me one too Janet. As per our discussion on the other list, we should actually catch up with a phone call. Cheers Jo 08 8388 6918 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kate /or Nick Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:48 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage me too please. Kate - Original Message - From: Janet Fraser To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage This dad then told them that he believed in the benefit of allowing the cord to stop pulsating before cutting it and that he would sue them if they cut the cord unnecessarily. This is pretty much what I teach women about birth although I don't recommend suing all that often ;-). I certainly give the benefits of proceeding as nature has intended with all the built in safeguards but I also provide large documents with the dangers of each intervention. Women are always shocked by how little their hospital has told them. I'm happy to share my care packages with anyone who could use them. Best, J -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 - Release Date: 6/21/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.10/25 - Release Date: 6/21/2005
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Please send care package to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you. Ping
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear Susan
I seeMary Murphy has already responded to
your query
I know Lois Wattishas a fair bit of Information on her website about 3 stage!!
http://www.birthjourney.com/
As do other midwives like Sara
Wickham
Also recently Mary talked of a pharmocoligal
reference recently that goes into adverse effects of oxytocics!
n the adverse a
As I am not working in midwifery I have not kept current
dataon all the clinical issues
Denise Hynd
"Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the
sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by anyone,
our bodies will be handled."
Linda Hes
- Original Message -
From:
Susan
Cudlipp
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological
3rd stage
Hi Denise
I wanted some info that I could use in promoting
physiological 3rd stage to doctors. I am aware of recent studies which
say that oxtocin should be routine for 3rd stage, and this seems to have been
adopted almost completely in hospitals. Where a woman chooses otherwise
there is little to help support her choice within an obstetrically managed
model of care. If there are any studies out there that could present
this arguement I would like to read them.
The post script to this birth was that she had an
induction yesterday at T+ 4 for raised BP, had a quick labour and normal
delivery, standing, oxytocin third stage, but with a sympathetic midwife who
did not 'rush' this bit. All is well and home today, quite happy with
events. I just think it's such a shame that her opinion was opposed,
fairly aggressively, I wish we saw more women take the trouble to inform
themselves as this young lady did.
Thanks,Sue
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing"Edmund Burke
- Original Message -
From:
Denise Hynd
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 6:47
AM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery]
physiological 3rd stage
Dear Sue
Who is it you want the evidence for woman or
the Ob?The women has accept the dr's scaremongering
I think both need information on what is
informed consent
And she needs to be reminded to trust her own
god given body's ability to give birth which if she were in many other
"undeveloped" countries would not be questioned
see the Health Consumer's Council pages and
leaflets
http://www.hcc-wa.asn.au/pages/questions_doc.html
and as you sad on the cascade of Intervention
I can hear it in operation from
here!!
Denise Hynd
"Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for
the sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by
anyone, our bodies will be handled."
Linda Hes
- Original Message -
From:
Susan
Cudlipp
To: midwifery list
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:03
PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] physiological
3rd stage
Dear list-wives
Have just had a frustrating 'discussion' with
one of our obs. A woman has written a very clear birth plan stating that
she wants no interventions unless absolutely necessary. The
'problem' being that she is a JW and will not accept a transfusion under
any circumstances. The said obs was of the opinion that she should
not be 'allowed' the choice of physiological 3rd stagein this case
so as to prevent the risk of haemorrhage.
I wonder if any of you know of any studies
into physiological 3rd stage that I can use here? There is plenty of
'evidence' about the 'wisdom' of prophelactic use of oxytocics, but
naturally the doctors, and sadly very few midwives, have any experience of
expectant management of third stage.
I am quite upset about the attitude displayed
here that the woman's informed wishes are not being respected, but of
course got no-where in trying to discuss this. This girl is no more
likely to bleed than any other person, but she has now been 'persuaded' to
alter her birth plan. Thetrouble is she now has a raised BP at term
and has been admitted. I can almost hear the 'cascade'
starting!
Any good evidence gratefully
recieved.
Regards, Sue
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of
evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke
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Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
On a related issue, I find this to be an invaluable resource. http://www.cordclamping.com/ It has some great info on physiological 3rd stage as well as the dangers of early cord clamping. All OBs could use this info. I'm startled by how many hospitals think pulling on a cord is ok???!!! Janet
RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/bristol.asp Try this link Sue. Cheers, MM Thanks Mary - I'd like to see it - would you post or fax to me? Fax no is 94545953 - if you don't have it on file. Sue Sue I have an article By Dr John Stevenson critiquing the Prendiville third stage trial. The doctors wouldnt take any notice as they deregistered him for supporting homebirth practices etc. Im sure I have it somewhere if you want it for yourself, cheers, MM Hi Denise I wanted some info that I could use in promoting physiological 3rd stage to doctors. I am aware of recent studies which say that oxtocin should be routine for 3rd stage, and this seems to have been adopted almost completely in hospitals. Where a woman chooses otherwise there is little to help support her choice within an obstetrically managed model of care. If there are any studies out there that could present this arguement I would like to read them. The post script to this birth was that she had an induction yesterday at T+ 4 for raised BP, had a quick labour and normal delivery, standing, oxytocin third stage, but with a sympathetic midwife who did not 'rush' this bit. All is well and home today, quite happy with events. I just think it's such a shame that her opinion was opposed, fairly aggressively, I wish we saw more women take the trouble to inform themselves as this young lady did. Thanks,Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: Denise Hynd To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Dear Sue Who is it you want the evidence for woman or the Ob? The women has accept the dr's scaremongering I think both need information on what is informed consent And she needs to be reminded to trust her own god given body's ability to give birth which if she were in many other undeveloped countries would not be questioned see the Health Consumer's Council pages and leaflets http://www.hcc-wa.asn.au/pages/questions_doc.html and as you sad on the cascade of Intervention I can hear it in operation from here!! Denise Hynd Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by anyone, our bodies will be handled. Linda Hes - Original Message - From: Susan Cudlipp To: midwifery list Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:03 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Dear list-wives Have just had a frustrating 'discussion' with one of our obs. A woman has written a very clear birth plan stating that she wants no interventions unless absolutely necessary. The 'problem' being that she is a JW and will not accept a transfusion under any circumstances. The said obs was of the opinion that she should not be 'allowed' the choice of physiological 3rd stagein this case so as to prevent the risk of haemorrhage. I wonder if any of you know of any studies into physiological 3rd stage that I can use here? There is plenty of 'evidence' about the 'wisdom' of prophelactic use of oxytocics, but naturally the doctors, and sadly very few midwives, have any experience of expectant management of third stage. I am quite upset about the attitude displayed here that the woman's informed wishes are not being respected, but of course got no-where in trying to discuss this. This girl is no more likely to bleed than any other person, but she has now been 'persuaded' to alter her birth plan. Thetrouble is she now has a raised BP at term and has been admitted. I can almost hear the 'cascade' starting! Any good evidence gratefully recieved. Regards, Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 14/06/2005 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 17/06/2005
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Thank you so much, Mary. You've got to love
Dr. John. I have a story from the early days of Canada's settlement about
3rd stage management. One of our First Nations women was taken to a
"settlement" because the placenta seemed to be adhered to her body. When
the dr and nurses inspected, they couldn't believe that the placenta, uterus,
bladder and bowel were all pulled out. After that horrifying case,a
public healthnurse was sent in to the native settlement to find out what
was going on with the mw because they'd never seen such a thing before---usually
the mws handled things very well. Sure enough, the nurse witnessed the mw
jumping right away to pull on the placenta. She had an overwhelming fear
of the placenta being inside and, for some reason, thought it had to come away
quickly. The nurse grabbed her and prevented her from interfering.
The mw was beside herself but prevented from acting. After 1/2 hr, the
placenta came in a healthy way and the mw was amazed. The nurse gave her
an alarm clock and told her "If I'm not here, you wait 30 mins before touching
the woman or I'll come back and hit you with a frying pan". That became
her rule and they never again had any transports to the settlement for p.p.
problems.
After I read that story, I started having that
policy too. It works. I think it's very important to tell the
parents beforehand that the birth is not complete until the placenta comes
out. They must plan to continue with the dark, quiet and privacy of the
birth until the placenta is birthed. This discussion with both
parentsprevents the father from grabbing his cell phone and making
announcement calls in that precious newborntime period. The mw
"guarding the normal" extends well past the moment of birth into the placenta
and nursing time.
Gloria Lemay, Vancouver, BC Canada
- Original Message -
From:
Mary
Murphy
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 5:35 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological
3rd stage
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/bristol.asp
Try this link Sue. Cheers,
MM
Thanks Mary - I'd like to see it -
would you post or fax to me? Fax no is 94545953 - if you don't have it
on file.
Sue
Sue I have an
article By Dr John Stevenson critiquing the Prendiville third stage
trial. The doctors wouldnt take any notice as they deregistered him
for supporting homebirth practices etc. Im sure I have it somewhere if you
want it for yourself, cheers, MM
Hi
Denise
I wanted some info that I could
use in promoting physiological 3rd stage to doctors. I am aware of
recent studies which say that oxtocin should be routine for 3rd stage, and
this seems to have been adopted almost completely in hospitals. Where
a woman chooses otherwise there is little to help support her choice within
an obstetrically managed model of care. If there are any studies out
there that could present this arguement I would like to read
them.
The post script to this birth
was that she had an induction yesterday at T+ 4 for raised BP, had a quick
labour and normal delivery, standing, oxytocin third stage, but with a
sympathetic midwife who did not 'rush' this bit. All is well and home
today, quite happy with events. I just think it's such a shame that
her opinion was opposed, fairly aggressively, I wish we saw more women
take the trouble to inform themselves as this young lady
did.
Thanks,Sue
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is
for good men to do nothing"Edmund
Burke
- Original Message -
From: Denise Hynd
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent:
Friday, June 17, 2005 6:47 AM
Subject: Re:
[ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear
Sue
Who is it you want the
evidence for woman or the Ob?The
women has accept the dr's
scaremongering
I think both need
information on what is informed consent
And she needs to be reminded
to trust her own god given body's ability to give birth which if she were
in many other "undeveloped" countries would not be
questioned
see the Health Consumer's
Council pages and leaflets
http://www.hcc-wa.asn.au/pages/questions_doc.html
and as you sad on the cascade
of Intervention
I can hear it in operation
from here!!
Denise Hynd
"Let us support one another, not just in
philosophy but in action, for the sake of freedom
RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
That is our policy here on the Community Program. No new people coming into the house and no phone calls until the placenta is out. Cheers, Mary Murphy Gloria wrote: After I read that story, I started having that policy too. It works. I think it's very important to tell the parents beforehand that the birth is not complete until the placenta comes out. They must plan to continue with the dark, quiet and privacy of the birth until the placenta is birthed. This discussion with both parentsprevents the father from grabbing his cell phone and making announcement calls in that precious newborntime period. The mw guarding the normal extends well past the moment of birth into the placenta and nursing time. Gloria Lemay, Vancouver, BC Canada - Original Message - From: Mary Murphy To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 5:35 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/bristol.asp Try this link Sue. Cheers, MM Thanks Mary - I'd like to see it - would you post or fax to me? Fax no is 94545953 - if you don't have it on file. Sue Sue I have an article By Dr John Stevenson critiquing the Prendiville third stage trial. The doctors wouldnt take any notice as they deregistered him for supporting homebirth practices etc. Im sure I have it somewhere if you want it for yourself, cheers, MM Hi Denise I wanted some info that I could use in promoting physiological 3rd stage to doctors. I am aware of recent studies which say that oxtocin should be routine for 3rd stage, and this seems to have been adopted almost completely in hospitals. Where a woman chooses otherwise there is little to help support her choice within an obstetrically managed model of care. If there are any studies out there that could present this arguement I would like to read them. The post script to this birth was that she had an induction yesterday at T+ 4 for raised BP, had a quick labour and normal delivery, standing, oxytocin third stage, but with a sympathetic midwife who did not 'rush' this bit. All is well and home today, quite happy with events. I just think it's such a shame that her opinion was opposed, fairly aggressively, I wish we saw more women take the trouble to inform themselves as this young lady did. Thanks,Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing Edmund Burke - Original Message - From: Denise Hynd To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Dear Sue Who is it you want the evidence for woman or the Ob? The women has accept the dr's scaremongering I think both need information on what is informed consent And she needs to be reminded to trust her own god given body's ability to give birth which if she were in many other undeveloped countries would not be questioned see the Health Consumer's Council pages and leaflets http://www.hcc-wa.asn.au/pages/questions_doc.html and as you sad on the cascade of Intervention I can hear it in operation from here!! Denise Hynd Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by anyone, our bodies will be handled. Linda Hes - Original Message - From: Susan Cudlipp To: midwifery list Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:03 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Dear list-wives Have just had a frustrating 'discussion' with one of our obs. A woman has written a very clear birth plan stating that she wants no interventions unless absolutely necessary. The 'problem' being that she is a JW and will not accept a transfusion under any circumstances. The said obs was of the opinion that she should not be 'allowed' the choice of physiological 3rd stagein this case so as to prevent the risk of haemorrhage. I wonder if any of you know of any studies into physiological 3rd stage that I can use here? There is plenty of 'evidence' about the 'wisdom' of prophelactic use of oxytocics, but naturally the doctors, and sadly very few midwives, have any experience of expectant management of third stage. I am quite upset about the attitude displayed here that the woman's informed wishes are not being respected, but of course got no-where in trying to discuss this. This girl is no more likely to bleed than any other person, but she has now been 'persuaded' to alter her birth plan. Thetrouble is she now has a raised BP at term and has been admitted. I can almost hear the 'cascade' starting! Any good evidence gratefully recieved. Regards, Sue The only thing necessary for the triumph
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Thanks Mary - I'd like to see it - would you post
or fax to me? Fax no is 94545953 - if you don't have it on
file.
Sue
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing"Edmund Burke
- Original Message -
From:
Mary
Murphy
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] physiological
3rd stage
Sue I have an article
By Dr John Stevenson critiquing the Prendiville third stage trial. The
doctors wouldn?t take any notice as they deregistered him for supporting
homebirth practices etc. I?m sure I have it somewhere if you want it for
yourself, cheers, MM
From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
[mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Susan CudlippSent: Sunday, 19 June 2005 4:10
PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological
3rd stage
Hi
Denise
I wanted some info that I could
use in promoting physiological 3rd stage to doctors. I am aware of
recent studies which say that oxtocin should be routine for 3rd stage, and
this seems to have been adopted almost completely in hospitals. Where a
woman chooses otherwise there is little to help support her choice within an
obstetrically managed model of care. If there are any studies out there
that could present this arguement I would like to read
them.
The post script to this birth was
that she had an induction yesterday at T+ 4 for raised BP, had a quick labour
and normal delivery, standing, oxytocin third stage, but with a sympathetic
midwife who did not 'rush' this bit. All is well and home today, quite
happy with events. I just think it's such a shame that her opinion was
opposed, fairly aggressively, I wish we saw more women take the trouble
to inform themselves as this young lady
did.
Thanks,Sue
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is
for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke
- Original Message -
From: Denise Hynd
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Friday,
June 17, 2005 6:47 AM
Subject: Re:
[ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear
Sue
Who is it you want the evidence
for woman or the Ob?The women has
accept the dr's scaremongering
I think both need
information on what is informed consent
And she needs to be reminded to
trust her own god given body's ability to give birth which if she were in
many other "undeveloped" countries would not be
questioned
see the Health Consumer's
Council pages and leaflets
http://www.hcc-wa.asn.au/pages/questions_doc.html
and as you sad on the cascade of
Intervention
I can hear it in operation from
here!!
Denise Hynd
"Let us support one another, not just in philosophy
but in action, for the sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how
and by whom, if by anyone, our bodies will be
handled."
? Linda Hes
- Original Message -
From: Susan
Cudlipp
To: midwifery list
Sent:
Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:03 PM
Subject:
[ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear
list-wives
Have just had a frustrating
'discussion' with one of our obs. A woman has written a very clear birth
plan stating that she wants no interventions unless absolutely
necessary. The 'problem' being that she is a JW and will not accept
a transfusion under any circumstances. The said obs was of the
opinion that she should not be 'allowed' the choice of physiological 3rd
stagein this case so as to prevent the risk of
haemorrhage.
I wonder if any of you know of
any studies into physiological 3rd stage that I can use here? There
is plenty of 'evidence' about the 'wisdom' of prophelactic use of
oxytocics, but naturally the doctors, and sadly very few midwives, have
any experience of expectant management of third
stage.
I am quite upset about the
attitude displayed here that the woman's informed wishes are not being
respected, but of course got no-where in trying to discuss this.
This girl is no more likely to bleed than any other person, but she has
now been 'persuaded' to alter her birth plan. Thetrouble is she now
has a raised BP at term and has been admitted. I can almost hear the
'cascade' starting!
Any good evidence gratefully
recieved.
Regards,
Sue
"Th
[ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear list-wives Have just had a frustrating 'discussion' with one of our obs. A woman has written a very clear birth plan stating that she wants no interventions unless absolutely necessary. The 'problem' being that she is a JW and will not accept a transfusion under any circumstances. The said obs was of the opinion that she should not be 'allowed' the choice of physiological 3rd stagein this case so as to prevent the risk of haemorrhage. I wonder if any of you know of any studies into physiological 3rd stage that I can use here? There is plenty of 'evidence' about the 'wisdom' of prophelactic use of oxytocics, but naturally the doctors, and sadly very few midwives, have any experience of expectant management of third stage. I am quite upset about the attitude displayed here that the woman's informed wishes are not being respected, but of course got no-where in trying to discuss this. This girl is no more likely to bleed than any other person, but she has now been 'persuaded' to alter her birth plan. Thetrouble is she now has a raised BP at term and has been admitted. I can almost hear the 'cascade' starting! Any good evidence gratefully recieved. Regards, Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke
Re: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage
Dear Sue Who is it you want the evidence for woman or the Ob?The women has accept the dr's scaremongering I think both need information on what is informed consent And she needs to be reminded to trust her own god given body's ability to give birth which if she were in many other "undeveloped" countries would not be questioned see the Health Consumer's Council pages and leaflets http://www.hcc-wa.asn.au/pages/questions_doc.html and as you sad on the cascade of Intervention I can hear it in operation from here!! Denise Hynd "Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by anyone, our bodies will be handled." ? Linda Hes - Original Message - From: Susan Cudlipp To: midwifery list Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:03 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] physiological 3rd stage Dear list-wives Have just had a frustrating 'discussion' with one of our obs. A woman has written a very clear birth plan stating that she wants no interventions unless absolutely necessary. The 'problem' being that she is a JW and will not accept a transfusion under any circumstances. The said obs was of the opinion that she should not be 'allowed' the choice of physiological 3rd stagein this case so as to prevent the risk of haemorrhage. I wonder if any of you know of any studies into physiological 3rd stage that I can use here? There is plenty of 'evidence' about the 'wisdom' of prophelactic use of oxytocics, but naturally the doctors, and sadly very few midwives, have any experience of expectant management of third stage. I am quite upset about the attitude displayed here that the woman's informed wishes are not being respected, but of course got no-where in trying to discuss this. This girl is no more likely to bleed than any other person, but she has now been 'persuaded' to alter her birth plan. Thetrouble is she now has a raised BP at term and has been admitted. I can almost hear the 'cascade' starting! Any good evidence gratefully recieved. Regards, Sue "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"Edmund Burke No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 14/06/2005
