Re: [PD] Sigmund~ parameters
Hi Miller, Here's a more detailed example. I've found that this problem is particularly obvious with minpower. The sound file I'm playing through sigmund has peaks varying mostly between 60 and 80, with occasional peaks around 90 (according to sigmund's env output). To my understanding the help file suggest that a value of minpower around 50 should detect pretty much all the notes, and a value around 90 would detect almost none. But in practice I find that there's almost no difference. I have to use values of minpower around 100 and 130, with 130 having the effect of effectively making sigmund output no notes at all. Is it a normal behaviour? Is there something I don't get in the way sigmund's work? I feel the growth parameter have this same issue, it feels to me that it's working quite differently in practice than what you would expect from reading the help file. Thanks for this wonderful object! Benoît Fortier Le jeudi 13 mars 2014 0h37, Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu a écrit : I presume you found the (very short) mention in the subppatch of the help wnidow (pd setting-parameters). Basically, if the measured signal power is less than minpower (expressed in dB) then the reported instantaneous potch is zero and no new notes will be reports (and this can give rise to repeated notes if the input power drifts below this value and then rises again.) growth is a threshold whereby sigmund~ may report repeated notes at teh same pitch, even if that pitch s continuously present in the signal, just because of a fall and subsequent rise in the measured power. This all needs a picture :) M On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 04:10:23PM -0700, Benoît Fortier wrote: Ok folks, never mind, I did some more testing with sigmund~ and I do now see that minpower and growth seems to be working. It works in a way I'm not quite sure to understand so I find it hard to use those parameters in a meaningful, predictable way, but I guess that's because of my limited understanding of what's going on exactly under the hood. Benoît Fortier Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h50, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca a écrit : Thanks for your reply. Yes I did some testing with fiddle and Helmholtz, If I need to I'll get to that in an other question. My question wasn't clear enough sorry about that. I would like first to clarify some aspect of the sigmund notes mode which seems very straight forward in the help file, namely growth and minpower parameter, but which in practice I find it doesn't quite work as expected. As anyone ever managed to get significantly different output by changing those two parameters? Are they working at all, and if so can anyone explain for the record how they actually work? Or maybe I'm missing something obvious? I'll ask a clearer question regarding other specific strategies for refining pitch tracking result soon, thank you for your help. Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h02, Alexandros Drymonitis adr...@gmail.com a écrit : Haven't tried [sigmund~], but [fiddle~] and [helmholtz~] (the latter by Katja Vetter) and I found [both fine but [helmholtz~] a bit better for my taste. I think it's a bit more responsive. What if you combine this with [env~] for example and this way you get pitch and amplitude... On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca wrote: Dear list, I've been working on a patch for quite a few months now which involves pitch tracking. I've explored many possible solutions, considering the pros and cons of every approach, made different tests, etc. I've also done a lot of reading (help files, forums, etc), but I couldn't find satisfying answers to all my questions. I am now in front of 4 or 5 different approach, each of which requires to do a certain number of compromise at different level. My feeling is that I am now at the point where I could possibly eliminate some of those compromise with your help. I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with one regarding Sigmund's notes parameters. I've done a lot of tests, changing one parameter at a time. I found that only the stable time and vibrato parameters seems to be affecting the output the way it should. The other parameters - growth and minpower - doesn't seem to be working the way it's described in the help file. Am I the only person who noticed that? When I looked in the list archives, I found someone else mentioning this issue but nobody replied (and i lost the link to the thread). I'm using my patch to track the pitch of a violin. What I'm trying to do is to convert the pitch of the violon into the most accurate note on message possible (with midi note and velocity). I need this patch to be as responsive as possible but also with as few insignificant output as possible. Thanks for your help! Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ parameters
Hmm..sounds like somethng's not workng rght. I'm traveling this week then booked solid next week, but I'll try to get a look at this when I can. cheers Miller On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:48:48AM -0700, Benoît Fortier wrote: Hi Miller, Here's a more detailed example. I've found that this problem is particularly obvious with minpower. The sound file I'm playing through sigmund has peaks varying mostly between 60 and 80, with occasional peaks around 90 (according to sigmund's env output). To my understanding the help file suggest that a value of minpower around 50 should detect pretty much all the notes, and a value around 90 would detect almost none. But in practice I find that there's almost no difference. I have to use values of minpower around 100 and 130, with 130 having the effect of effectively making sigmund output no notes at all. Is it a normal behaviour? Is there something I don't get in the way sigmund's work? I feel the growth parameter have this same issue, it feels to me that it's working quite differently in practice than what you would expect from reading the help file. Thanks for this wonderful object! Benoît Fortier Le jeudi 13 mars 2014 0h37, Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu a écrit : I presume you found the (very short) mention in the subppatch of the help wnidow (pd setting-parameters). Basically, if the measured signal power is less than minpower (expressed in dB) then the reported instantaneous potch is zero and no new notes will be reports (and this can give rise to repeated notes if the input power drifts below this value and then rises again.) growth is a threshold whereby sigmund~ may report repeated notes at teh same pitch, even if that pitch s continuously present in the signal, just because of a fall and subsequent rise in the measured power. This all needs a picture :) M On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 04:10:23PM -0700, Benoît Fortier wrote: Ok folks, never mind, I did some more testing with sigmund~ and I do now see that minpower and growth seems to be working. It works in a way I'm not quite sure to understand so I find it hard to use those parameters in a meaningful, predictable way, but I guess that's because of my limited understanding of what's going on exactly under the hood. Benoît Fortier Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h50, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca a écrit : Thanks for your reply. Yes I did some testing with fiddle and Helmholtz, If I need to I'll get to that in an other question. My question wasn't clear enough sorry about that. I would like first to clarify some aspect of the sigmund notes mode which seems very straight forward in the help file, namely growth and minpower parameter, but which in practice I find it doesn't quite work as expected. As anyone ever managed to get significantly different output by changing those two parameters? Are they working at all, and if so can anyone explain for the record how they actually work? Or maybe I'm missing something obvious? I'll ask a clearer question regarding other specific strategies for refining pitch tracking result soon, thank you for your help. Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h02, Alexandros Drymonitis adr...@gmail.com a écrit : Haven't tried [sigmund~], but [fiddle~] and [helmholtz~] (the latter by Katja Vetter) and I found [both fine but [helmholtz~] a bit better for my taste. I think it's a bit more responsive. What if you combine this with [env~] for example and this way you get pitch and amplitude... On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca wrote: Dear list, I've been working on a patch for quite a few months now which involves pitch tracking. I've explored many possible solutions, considering the pros and cons of every approach, made different tests, etc. I've also done a lot of reading (help files, forums, etc), but I couldn't find satisfying answers to all my questions. I am now in front of 4 or 5 different approach, each of which requires to do a certain number of compromise at different level. My feeling is that I am now at the point where I could possibly eliminate some of those compromise with your help. I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with one regarding Sigmund's notes parameters. I've done a lot of tests, changing one parameter at a time. I found that only the stable time and vibrato parameters seems to be affecting the output the way it should. The other parameters - growth and minpower - doesn't seem to be working the way it's described in the help file. Am I the only person who noticed that? When I looked in the list archives, I found someone else mentioning this issue but nobody replied (and i lost the link to the thread). I'm using my patch to track the pitch of a
[PD] Sigmund~ parameters
Dear list, I've been working on a patch for quite a few months now which involves pitch tracking. I've explored many possible solutions, considering the pros and cons of every approach, made different tests, etc. I've also done a lot of reading (help files, forums, etc), but I couldn't find satisfying answers to all my questions. I am now in front of 4 or 5 different approach, each of which requires to do a certain number of compromise at different level. My feeling is that I am now at the point where I could possibly eliminate some of those compromise with your help. I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with one regarding Sigmund's notes parameters. I've done a lot of tests, changing one parameter at a time. I found that only the stable time and vibrato parameters seems to be affecting the output the way it should. The other parameters - growth and minpower - doesn't seem to be working the way it's described in the help file. Am I the only person who noticed that? When I looked in the list archives, I found someone else mentioning this issue but nobody replied (and i lost the link to the thread). I'm using my patch to track the pitch of a violin. What I'm trying to do is to convert the pitch of the violon into the most accurate note on message possible (with midi note and velocity). I need this patch to be as responsive as possible but also with as few insignificant output as possible. Thanks for your help! Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ parameters
Haven't tried [sigmund~], but [fiddle~] and [helmholtz~] (the latter by Katja Vetter) and I found [both fine but [helmholtz~] a bit better for my taste. I think it's a bit more responsive. What if you combine this with [env~] for example and this way you get pitch and amplitude... On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.cawrote: Dear list, I've been working on a patch for quite a few months now which involves pitch tracking. I've explored many possible solutions, considering the pros and cons of every approach, made different tests, etc. I've also done a lot of reading (help files, forums, etc), but I couldn't find satisfying answers to all my questions. I am now in front of 4 or 5 different approach, each of which requires to do a certain number of compromise at different level. My feeling is that I am now at the point where I could possibly eliminate some of those compromise with your help. I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with one regarding Sigmund's notes parameters. I've done a lot of tests, changing one parameter at a time. I found that only the stable time and vibrato parameters seems to be affecting the output the way it should. The other parameters - growth and minpower - doesn't seem to be working the way it's described in the help file. Am I the only person who noticed that? When I looked in the list archives, I found someone else mentioning this issue but nobody replied (and i lost the link to the thread). I'm using my patch to track the pitch of a violin. What I'm trying to do is to convert the pitch of the violon into the most accurate note on message possible (with midi note and velocity). I need this patch to be as responsive as possible but also with as few insignificant output as possible. Thanks for your help! Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ parameters
Thanks for your reply. Yes I did some testing with fiddle and Helmholtz, If I need to I'll get to that in an other question. My question wasn't clear enough sorry about that. I would like first to clarify some aspect of the sigmund notes mode which seems very straight forward in the help file, namely growth and minpower parameter, but which in practice I find it doesn't quite work as expected. As anyone ever managed to get significantly different output by changing those two parameters? Are they working at all, and if so can anyone explain for the record how they actually work? Or maybe I'm missing something obvious? I'll ask a clearer question regarding other specific strategies for refining pitch tracking result soon, thank you for your help. Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h02, Alexandros Drymonitis adr...@gmail.com a écrit : Haven't tried [sigmund~], but [fiddle~] and [helmholtz~] (the latter by Katja Vetter) and I found [both fine but [helmholtz~] a bit better for my taste. I think it's a bit more responsive. What if you combine this with [env~] for example and this way you get pitch and amplitude... On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca wrote: Dear list, I've been working on a patch for quite a few months now which involves pitch tracking. I've explored many possible solutions, considering the pros and cons of every approach, made different tests, etc. I've also done a lot of reading (help files, forums, etc), but I couldn't find satisfying answers to all my questions. I am now in front of 4 or 5 different approach, each of which requires to do a certain number of compromise at different level. My feeling is that I am now at the point where I could possibly eliminate some of those compromise with your help. I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with one regarding Sigmund's notes parameters. I've done a lot of tests, changing one parameter at a time. I found that only the stable time and vibrato parameters seems to be affecting the output the way it should. The other parameters - growth and minpower - doesn't seem to be working the way it's described in the help file. Am I the only person who noticed that? When I looked in the list archives, I found someone else mentioning this issue but nobody replied (and i lost the link to the thread). I'm using my patch to track the pitch of a violin. What I'm trying to do is to convert the pitch of the violon into the most accurate note on message possible (with midi note and velocity). I need this patch to be as responsive as possible but also with as few insignificant output as possible. Thanks for your help! Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ parameters
Ok folks, never mind, I did some more testing with sigmund~ and I do now see that minpower and growth seems to be working. It works in a way I'm not quite sure to understand so I find it hard to use those parameters in a meaningful, predictable way, but I guess that's because of my limited understanding of what's going on exactly under the hood. Benoît Fortier Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h50, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca a écrit : Thanks for your reply. Yes I did some testing with fiddle and Helmholtz, If I need to I'll get to that in an other question. My question wasn't clear enough sorry about that. I would like first to clarify some aspect of the sigmund notes mode which seems very straight forward in the help file, namely growth and minpower parameter, but which in practice I find it doesn't quite work as expected. As anyone ever managed to get significantly different output by changing those two parameters? Are they working at all, and if so can anyone explain for the record how they actually work? Or maybe I'm missing something obvious? I'll ask a clearer question regarding other specific strategies for refining pitch tracking result soon, thank you for your help. Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h02, Alexandros Drymonitis adr...@gmail.com a écrit : Haven't tried [sigmund~], but [fiddle~] and [helmholtz~] (the latter by Katja Vetter) and I found [both fine but [helmholtz~] a bit better for my taste. I think it's a bit more responsive. What if you combine this with [env~] for example and this way you get pitch and amplitude... On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca wrote: Dear list, I've been working on a patch for quite a few months now which involves pitch tracking. I've explored many possible solutions, considering the pros and cons of every approach, made different tests, etc. I've also done a lot of reading (help files, forums, etc), but I couldn't find satisfying answers to all my questions. I am now in front of 4 or 5 different approach, each of which requires to do a certain number of compromise at different level. My feeling is that I am now at the point where I could possibly eliminate some of those compromise with your help. I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with one regarding Sigmund's notes parameters. I've done a lot of tests, changing one parameter at a time. I found that only the stable time and vibrato parameters seems to be affecting the output the way it should. The other parameters - growth and minpower - doesn't seem to be working the way it's described in the help file. Am I the only person who noticed that? When I looked in the list archives, I found someone else mentioning this issue but nobody replied (and i lost the link to the thread). I'm using my patch to track the pitch of a violin. What I'm trying to do is to convert the pitch of the violon into the most accurate note on message possible (with midi note and velocity). I need this patch to be as responsive as possible but also with as few insignificant output as possible. Thanks for your help! Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ parameters
I presume you found the (very short) mention in the subppatch of the help wnidow (pd setting-parameters). Basically, if the measured signal power is less than minpower (expressed in dB) then the reported instantaneous potch is zero and no new notes will be reports (and this can give rise to repeated notes if the input power drifts below this value and then rises again.) growth is a threshold whereby sigmund~ may report repeated notes at teh same pitch, even if that pitch s continuously present in the signal, just because of a fall and subsequent rise in the measured power. This all needs a picture :) M On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 04:10:23PM -0700, Benoît Fortier wrote: Ok folks, never mind, I did some more testing with sigmund~ and I do now see that minpower and growth seems to be working. It works in a way I'm not quite sure to understand so I find it hard to use those parameters in a meaningful, predictable way, but I guess that's because of my limited understanding of what's going on exactly under the hood. Benoît Fortier Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h50, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca a écrit : Thanks for your reply. Yes I did some testing with fiddle and Helmholtz, If I need to I'll get to that in an other question. My question wasn't clear enough sorry about that. I would like first to clarify some aspect of the sigmund notes mode which seems very straight forward in the help file, namely growth and minpower parameter, but which in practice I find it doesn't quite work as expected. As anyone ever managed to get significantly different output by changing those two parameters? Are they working at all, and if so can anyone explain for the record how they actually work? Or maybe I'm missing something obvious? I'll ask a clearer question regarding other specific strategies for refining pitch tracking result soon, thank you for your help. Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 Le mercredi 12 mars 2014 16h02, Alexandros Drymonitis adr...@gmail.com a écrit : Haven't tried [sigmund~], but [fiddle~] and [helmholtz~] (the latter by Katja Vetter) and I found [both fine but [helmholtz~] a bit better for my taste. I think it's a bit more responsive. What if you combine this with [env~] for example and this way you get pitch and amplitude... On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca wrote: Dear list, I've been working on a patch for quite a few months now which involves pitch tracking. I've explored many possible solutions, considering the pros and cons of every approach, made different tests, etc. I've also done a lot of reading (help files, forums, etc), but I couldn't find satisfying answers to all my questions. I am now in front of 4 or 5 different approach, each of which requires to do a certain number of compromise at different level. My feeling is that I am now at the point where I could possibly eliminate some of those compromise with your help. I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with one regarding Sigmund's notes parameters. I've done a lot of tests, changing one parameter at a time. I found that only the stable time and vibrato parameters seems to be affecting the output the way it should. The other parameters - growth and minpower - doesn't seem to be working the way it's described in the help file. Am I the only person who noticed that? When I looked in the list archives, I found someone else mentioning this issue but nobody replied (and i lost the link to the thread). I'm using my patch to track the pitch of a violin. What I'm trying to do is to convert the pitch of the violon into the most accurate note on message possible (with midi note and velocity). I need this patch to be as responsive as possible but also with as few insignificant output as possible. Thanks for your help! Benoît Fortier 581 995-5622 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 02:45:38PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Le 2012-02-25 à 09:34:00, Frank Barknecht a écrit : Yes, exactly. I often use data structures, well, as data structures and almost never use them for scores in a UPIC sense. What's UPIC ? I was referring to the UPIC composition tool by Iannis Xenakis (Unité Polyagogique Informatique du CEMAMu), that was one of the inspirations for the graphical score capabilities in data structures. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPIC Ciao -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:40:52AM -0800, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: - Original Message - From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca To: Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [PD] sigmund list sort Le 2012-02-24 à 09:51:00, Miller Puckette a écrit : It's odd, but it never occurred to me that one should be able to specify which field(s) to sort on -- it's x, then y. I should fix this... Nearly all the music I ever composed used a vertical time axis. Lots of people are in this situation, though perhaps not many are also into Pd DS. Data structures can be used for more than drawing a score with a vertical time axis. In Frank's case there aren't even any drawing instructions-- the only reason he's using x is because that's the field the canvas sort method uses. Yes, exactly. I often use data structures, well, as data structures and almost never use them for scores in a UPIC sense. Ciao -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Hi, On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 01:26:54PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: I have Pd-extended 42.5 that contains Michał Seta's sort, which used to be cubic (O(n³)) and with even lower sorting limits, until I made you replace the O(n²) [list-drip] that used O(n) stack, by one that runs in O(n) and uses O(log n) stack. I don't know any more recent version of list-abs. To me the home of [list]-abs is the CVS repository, but I'm a bad boy who practically never does proper releases. Ciao -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 09:38:20AM +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hi, On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 01:26:54PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: I have Pd-extended 42.5 that contains Michał Seta's sort, which used to be cubic (O(n³)) and with even lower sorting limits, until I made you replace the O(n²) [list-drip] that used O(n) stack, by one that runs in O(n) and uses O(log n) stack. I don't know any more recent version of list-abs. To me the home of [list]-abs is the CVS repository, Oops, SVN of course. At Sourceforge. Ciao -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Le 2012-02-25 à 09:34:00, Frank Barknecht a écrit : Yes, exactly. I often use data structures, well, as data structures and almost never use them for scores in a UPIC sense. What's UPIC ? __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Le 2012-02-25 à 09:45:00, Frank Barknecht a écrit : On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 09:38:20AM +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote: On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 01:26:54PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: I don't know any more recent version of list-abs. To me the home of [list]-abs is the CVS repository, Oops, SVN of course. At Sourceforge. Do you mean RCS, or do you mean SCCS ? __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 01:14:22PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: Le 2012-02-18 à 09:58:00, Miller Puckette a écrit : I believe there's no good way to do this in pd vanilla. THere should be a 'list sort' but I haven't figured out what would be the best design. (and there's probably already a list sort in Pd extended :) the [list-sort] abstraction uses a high-constant O(n²) algorithm that breaks once you try to sort more than 125 values. Actually [list-sort] since quite some time uses the sort method borrowed from Pd's data-structures for sorting. The problem here is not so much the sorting algorithm, which is very fast and can sort way more than 125 items. However copying the list to a data structure and back - this currently indeed has a problem with stack-overflows, as I'm now aware. Have to think about a fix ... Ciao -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Hi, attached is an approach using data structures to do the sorting of peaks. Somehow I forgot how to set the sort field in a data structure and cannot find it in the docs. Wasn't there some way to specify a different field than x for sorting? (Maybe it was simply sort fielname which I didn't try in my quick patch.) Ciao -- Frank On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 09:58:50AM -0800, Miller Puckette wrote: I believe there's no good way to do this in pd vanilla. THere should be a 'list sort' but I haven't figured out what would be the best design. (and there's probably already a list sort in Pd extended :) cheers Miller On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 04:19:58PM +0100, labyrinthuscochlearis wrote: hi all, what would be a good way to transform sigmund~'s peaks output so that I get a list with peak amplitudes but in the ascending order of the corresponding frequencies? thanks, christian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ peak-sort.pd Description: application/puredata set-peak.pd Description: application/puredata ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
It's odd, but it never occurred to me that one should be able to specify which field(s) to sort on -- it's x, then y. I should fix this... cheers Miller On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 06:46:08PM +0100, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hi, attached is an approach using data structures to do the sorting of peaks. Somehow I forgot how to set the sort field in a data structure and cannot find it in the docs. Wasn't there some way to specify a different field than x for sorting? (Maybe it was simply sort fielname which I didn't try in my quick patch.) Ciao -- Frank On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 09:58:50AM -0800, Miller Puckette wrote: I believe there's no good way to do this in pd vanilla. THere should be a 'list sort' but I haven't figured out what would be the best design. (and there's probably already a list sort in Pd extended :) cheers Miller On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 04:19:58PM +0100, labyrinthuscochlearis wrote: hi all, what would be a good way to transform sigmund~'s peaks output so that I get a list with peak amplitudes but in the ascending order of the corresponding frequencies? thanks, christian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Le 2012-02-24 à 09:51:00, Miller Puckette a écrit : It's odd, but it never occurred to me that one should be able to specify which field(s) to sort on -- it's x, then y. I should fix this... Nearly all the music I ever composed used a vertical time axis. Lots of people are in this situation, though perhaps not many are also into Pd DS. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Le 2012-02-24 à 09:02:00, Frank Barknecht a écrit : On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 01:14:22PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: the [list-sort] abstraction uses a high-constant O(n²) algorithm that breaks once you try to sort more than 125 values. Actually [list-sort] since quite some time uses the sort method borrowed from Pd's data-structures for sorting. I have Pd-extended 42.5 that contains Michał Seta's sort, which used to be cubic (O(n³)) and with even lower sorting limits, until I made you replace the O(n²) [list-drip] that used O(n) stack, by one that runs in O(n) and uses O(log n) stack. I don't know any more recent version of list-abs. The problem here is not so much the sorting algorithm, which is very fast and can sort way more than 125 items. Indeed, it's a slow version of mergesort written using linkedlists in C, which is still faster than nearly anything one could possibly come up with in pure Pd. However copying the list to a data structure and back - this currently indeed has a problem with stack-overflows, as I'm now aware. Have to think about a fix ... Make sure that your algos take less than O(n) stack space... If it's not a 125 element limit, it's 500 or 1000, and it can't get higher without recompiling Pd to be more indulgent. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
- Original Message - From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca To: Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [PD] sigmund list sort Le 2012-02-24 à 09:02:00, Frank Barknecht a écrit : On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 01:14:22PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: the [list-sort] abstraction uses a high-constant O(n²) algorithm that breaks once you try to sort more than 125 values. Actually [list-sort] since quite some time uses the sort method borrowed from Pd's data-structures for sorting. I have Pd-extended 42.5 that contains Michał Seta's sort, which used to be cubic (O(n³)) and with even lower sorting limits, until I made you replace the O(n²) [list-drip] that used O(n) stack, by one that runs in O(n) and uses O(log n) stack. I don't know any more recent version of list-abs. The problem here is not so much the sorting algorithm, which is very fast and can sort way more than 125 items. Indeed, it's a slow version of mergesort written using linkedlists in C, which is still faster than nearly anything one could possibly come up with in pure Pd. However copying the list to a data structure and back - this currently indeed has a problem with stack-overflows, as I'm now aware. Have to think about a fix ... Use an iterative loop instead of a recursive one and you will avoid the stack overflows. Make sure that your algos take less than O(n) stack space... If it's not a 125 element limit, it's 500 or 1000, and it can't get higher without recompiling Pd to be more indulgent. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
- Original Message - From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca To: Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu Cc: pd-list@iem.at Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [PD] sigmund list sort Le 2012-02-24 à 09:51:00, Miller Puckette a écrit : It's odd, but it never occurred to me that one should be able to specify which field(s) to sort on -- it's x, then y. I should fix this... Nearly all the music I ever composed used a vertical time axis. Lots of people are in this situation, though perhaps not many are also into Pd DS. Data structures can be used for more than drawing a score with a vertical time axis. In Frank's case there aren't even any drawing instructions-- the only reason he's using x is because that's the field the canvas sort method uses. -Jonathan __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
hi, thank you, i will look at it right away! all the best, christian Am Freitag, den 24.02.2012, 18:46 +0100 schrieb Frank Barknecht: Hi, attached is an approach using data structures to do the sorting of peaks. Somehow I forgot how to set the sort field in a data structure and cannot find it in the docs. Wasn't there some way to specify a different field than x for sorting? (Maybe it was simply sort fielname which I didn't try in my quick patch.) Ciao -- Frank On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 09:58:50AM -0800, Miller Puckette wrote: I believe there's no good way to do this in pd vanilla. THere should be a 'list sort' but I haven't figured out what would be the best design. (and there's probably already a list sort in Pd extended :) cheers Miller On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 04:19:58PM +0100, labyrinthuscochlearis wrote: hi all, what would be a good way to transform sigmund~'s peaks output so that I get a list with peak amplitudes but in the ascending order of the corresponding frequencies? thanks, christian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Thank you! I really have to get into GridFlow. All the best, c Am Samstag, den 18.02.2012, 11:28 -0500 schrieb Mathieu Bouchard: Le 2012-02-18 à 16:19:00, labyrinthuscochlearis a écrit : what would be a good way to transform sigmund~'s peaks output so that I get a list with peak amplitudes but in the ascending order of the corresponding frequencies? GridFlow's [#grade] gives you a list of item numbers in the order that you need to pick them so that they be sorted. This can be used for sorting a table with multiple columns according to one column, whereas other sorting tools in Pd might only support sorting individual values. http://gridflow.ca/help/%23grade-help.html You will need the appropriate conversion from list to grid (a kind of super-list type) and grid to list. Also, [#store] is a great shortcut for reordering elements using the output of [#grade]. This uses a plugin that you'd download from http://gridflow.ca/ __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] sigmund list sort
hi all, what would be a good way to transform sigmund~'s peaks output so that I get a list with peak amplitudes but in the ascending order of the corresponding frequencies? thanks, christian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Le 2012-02-18 à 16:19:00, labyrinthuscochlearis a écrit : what would be a good way to transform sigmund~'s peaks output so that I get a list with peak amplitudes but in the ascending order of the corresponding frequencies? GridFlow's [#grade] gives you a list of item numbers in the order that you need to pick them so that they be sorted. This can be used for sorting a table with multiple columns according to one column, whereas other sorting tools in Pd might only support sorting individual values. http://gridflow.ca/help/%23grade-help.html You will need the appropriate conversion from list to grid (a kind of super-list type) and grid to list. Also, [#store] is a great shortcut for reordering elements using the output of [#grade]. This uses a plugin that you'd download from http://gridflow.ca/ __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
I believe there's no good way to do this in pd vanilla. THere should be a 'list sort' but I haven't figured out what would be the best design. (and there's probably already a list sort in Pd extended :) cheers Miller On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 04:19:58PM +0100, labyrinthuscochlearis wrote: hi all, what would be a good way to transform sigmund~'s peaks output so that I get a list with peak amplitudes but in the ascending order of the corresponding frequencies? thanks, christian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund list sort
Le 2012-02-18 à 09:58:00, Miller Puckette a écrit : I believe there's no good way to do this in pd vanilla. THere should be a 'list sort' but I haven't figured out what would be the best design. (and there's probably already a list sort in Pd extended :) the [list-sort] abstraction uses a high-constant O(n²) algorithm that breaks once you try to sort more than 125 values. For [sigmund~]'s output this is not very relevant, what's relevant is that it can't deal with more than one « column », that is, it can't sort pairs of numbers. That's why I mention [#grade]. Not only it's using a lean O(n log n) algorithm that can work on millions of elements, it also gives you the ordering instead of applying the sorting. This means that you can fairly easily construct a sorter by any kind of key column, including cases computed on the fly (e.g. sort according to dbA computed using both amplitude and frequencies, where the dbA is not part of the table). That kind of modular design is something I borrowed from the APL language. __ | Mathieu BOUCHARD - téléphone : +1.514.383.3801 - Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Sigmund~ or Bonk~ question: discerning input between two sounds
Hi everyone, I'll be beat-boxing (with my voice) TWO sounds into my computer microphone: a Kick drum sound and a Hi-Hat sound. I would like to use some sort of spectral analysis object to send bangs when it recognizes them. I ran these two sounds through a spectral analyser and found that the Kick sound was between 100-300 hz and the Hi-Hat sound was between 1k-10k hz. What is the most precise way to do this? In [sigmund~], what are the arguments I would use, and how would I specify these ranges through these arguments? Thank you for your time, Sebastian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ or Bonk~ question: discerning input between two sounds
Check out timbreID by William Brent. Best, J On Nov 8, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Sebastian Valenzuela svalenzuelamu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I'll be beat-boxing (with my voice) TWO sounds into my computer microphone: a Kick drum sound and a Hi-Hat sound. I would like to use some sort of spectral analysis object to send bangs when it recognizes them. I ran these two sounds through a spectral analyser and found that the Kick sound was between 100-300 hz and the Hi-Hat sound was between 1k-10k hz. What is the most precise way to do this? In [sigmund~], what are the arguments I would use, and how would I specify these ranges through these arguments? Thank you for your time, Sebastian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund~
Hi, On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 06:35:51PM -0700, Benoît Fortier wrote: I'm using the sigmund~ object to get amplitude and pitch information for the loudest peaks of a signal (see the sinusoid-tracking help patch, which can be found in the sigmund~ help patch). Out of that information, I want to create, let's say, 5 midi notes corresponding to the 5 loudest peaks of the signal. How would you transform the peak amplitude outputs of sigmund, which are linear, into midi velocities in order to make those 5 notes sound with the same relative amplitude that they have in the analysed signal? It might be a stupid question but what are those linear peak amplitude values exactly? Do they have any unit? They don't have a unit, they specify the actual peak amplitude of a sine component in a signal. If you feed a sigmund~ with an unscaled [osc~] the peak reported should be close to 1, as the sinewave coming out of an [osc~] goes from -1 to 1, so the absolute peak is 1. If you attenuate this [osc~] by multiplying it by 0.5, sigmund~ should report a peak near 0.5 accordingly. The amplitude is linear in that it directly outputs this multiplication factor - multiplication by constants (homogeneity of degree 1) and addition (additivity) are the two linear operations here. See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_map for some gory details. There also are non-linear operations possible. For example multiplication of a signal with itself is a first step into the non-linear world. You may remember the parabolic curve if you plot f(x)=x*x which looks like a glass of wine and obviously is not a straight line(ar) anymore. dB-curves are similarily skewed, as are square root, log, or other [pow] curves. Now it's possible to express the amplitude of signals in various ways. The peak amplitude above actually already is a modification in that it only considers the absolute value of the actual amplitude (which is negative sometimes in the case of an [osc~], but not for a [phasor~]!). You could also look at the instantaneous amplitude of a signal with [snapshot~] for example, or calculate some kind of average, or use the absolute peak-to-peak-amplitude (which would be 2 for an [osc~]!) A very important amplitude specification is the RMS or root-mean-square amplitude. This is especially interesting as a signal's power is proportional to the square of RMS. RMS in Pd is calulated by the [env~] object. Now in music you very often are interested in powers, intensities or loudness (more complicated) values, for example you want something to be twice as loud as another sound. That's where logarithms and decibels come in. Check e.g. this http://hep.physics.indiana.edu/~rickv/Loudness_Scales.html for some details. In Pd an important thing to know is its non-standard use of the term dB: For example [env~] outputs values in dB which are scaled so that a [sig~ 1] will have an RMS of 100, and [sig~ 0] has RMS of 0. But to convert these into linear amplitude multipliers from 0 to 1 you cannot just divide by 100, as your intermediate values would be wrong: [sig~ 0.5] gives an [env~] of about 93.97 and not 0.5 as might be expected! Instead use [dbtorms] here, and [rmstodb] for the undo-operation. The attached file shows these operations in action. More reading stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplitude http://www.iu.edu/~emusic/acoustics/amplitude.htm Ciao -- Frank dB-and-more.pd Description: application/puredata ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] sigmund~
Hello all, I'm using the sigmund~ object to get amplitude and pitch information for the loudest peaks of a signal (see the sinusoid-tracking help patch, which can be found in the sigmund~ help patch). Out of that information, I want to create, let's say, 5 midi notes corresponding to the 5 loudest peaks of the signal. How would you transform the peak amplitude outputs of sigmund, which are linear, into midi velocities in order to make those 5 notes sound with the same relative amplitude that they have in the analysed signal? It might be a stupid question but what are those linear peak amplitude values exactly? Do they have any unit? More generally, can you give me any good reference, preferably online, that explain in details the physic and mathematic behind sound amplitude? I manage to work many things out by myself but i have to admit that my actual understanding of it is a little bit superficial. By the way, I have a good background in physic and mathematic so don't hesitate to suggest me more advanced readings. Thank you! I've learned a lot from you already just by reading the list. Benoît ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund~
For the second part of your question I guess Miller's book would be a good place to start, given that it also provides examples in pd. http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/techniques/latest/book-html/ For a more advanced source, though not an online resource, the Musimathics books look thorough and come highly recommended. -m 2011/9/30 Benoît Fortier benoitfort...@yahoo.ca Hello all, I'm using the sigmund~ object to get amplitude and pitch information for the loudest peaks of a signal (see the sinusoid-tracking help patch, which can be found in the sigmund~ help patch). Out of that information, I want to create, let's say, 5 midi notes corresponding to the 5 loudest peaks of the signal. How would you transform the peak amplitude outputs of sigmund, which are linear, into midi velocities in order to make those 5 notes sound with the same relative amplitude that they have in the analysed signal? It might be a stupid question but what are those linear peak amplitude values exactly? Do they have any unit? More generally, can you give me any good reference, preferably online, that explain in details the physic and mathematic behind sound amplitude? I manage to work many things out by myself but i have to admit that my actual understanding of it is a little bit superficial. By the way, I have a good background in physic and mathematic so don't hesitate to suggest me more advanced readings. Thank you! I've learned a lot from you already just by reading the list. Benoît ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Good stuff, ok will do. Thanks again, Julian On 17 February 2011 19:19, William Brent william.br...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, a Windows binary of [pitchEnv~] is up on my site: http://williambrent.conflations.com/pages/research.html#pitchEnv I hadn't put up Windows or the source yet because I was still in the middle of working on it, but I think it's fine so that's all up now. Let me know off list if you have issues with it. On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 4:03 PM, J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: Hey William, Appreciate the involvement... Unfortunately I'm on W7 atm. My main patch uses the MSD lib and after what I thought was a trivial problem with using it in Puredyne (my regular distro), last Nov, MSD is still not working for me. Fortunately I bought a 2nd hand lappy with W7 on it early Dec, so have been working in that since. The instrumentalist is a Mac guy but that doesn't help me prepare the piece. So yeah, a long way round of asking do you have a windows version? Funnily enough I was nosy'ing around your site a couple of months ago and d/l'd the timbre ID lib for further research. Looks well good:) Best wishes, Julian On 16 February 2011 19:02, William Brent william.br...@gmail.com wrote: Good to know about the reason for the 1Mhz maxfreq... Not really sure what to do with the viola d'amore source sounds if they are just not going to be stable. I think if you can settle for fewer harmonics and work out the flag logic there's hope yet. Another thing that occurred to me is that since the scratchy noise part of the viol sound is likely what's making the tracking jumpy, you could try to remove the noise. I've been working on an external that lets you rescale the amplitudes of harmonics in a pitched signal. There's an early draft on my website - it's called [pitchEnv~]. Using that, I scaled all the harmonics of your sample to 0, so that all the pitch related components are erased from the signal. The attached wav file is what's left...basically all the scratchy noise. Then I tried subtracting that noise from the original signal (delayed slightly based on the time it takes to do this analysis), and it did clean up the noise some. It wasn't perfect, but with some work this could produce a signal you send to [sigmund~] that would be more easily tracked out. I might have time to fiddle with that later, but if you download [pitchEnv~] you can give it a shot too. William -- William Brent www.williambrent.com “Great minds flock together” Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century www.conflations.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Ok, a Windows binary of [pitchEnv~] is up on my site: http://williambrent.conflations.com/pages/research.html#pitchEnv I hadn't put up Windows or the source yet because I was still in the middle of working on it, but I think it's fine so that's all up now. Let me know off list if you have issues with it. On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 4:03 PM, J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: Hey William, Appreciate the involvement... Unfortunately I'm on W7 atm. My main patch uses the MSD lib and after what I thought was a trivial problem with using it in Puredyne (my regular distro), last Nov, MSD is still not working for me. Fortunately I bought a 2nd hand lappy with W7 on it early Dec, so have been working in that since. The instrumentalist is a Mac guy but that doesn't help me prepare the piece. So yeah, a long way round of asking do you have a windows version? Funnily enough I was nosy'ing around your site a couple of months ago and d/l'd the timbre ID lib for further research. Looks well good:) Best wishes, Julian On 16 February 2011 19:02, William Brent william.br...@gmail.com wrote: Good to know about the reason for the 1Mhz maxfreq... Not really sure what to do with the viola d'amore source sounds if they are just not going to be stable. I think if you can settle for fewer harmonics and work out the flag logic there's hope yet. Another thing that occurred to me is that since the scratchy noise part of the viol sound is likely what's making the tracking jumpy, you could try to remove the noise. I've been working on an external that lets you rescale the amplitudes of harmonics in a pitched signal. There's an early draft on my website - it's called [pitchEnv~]. Using that, I scaled all the harmonics of your sample to 0, so that all the pitch related components are erased from the signal. The attached wav file is what's left...basically all the scratchy noise. Then I tried subtracting that noise from the original signal (delayed slightly based on the time it takes to do this analysis), and it did clean up the noise some. It wasn't perfect, but with some work this could produce a signal you send to [sigmund~] that would be more easily tracked out. I might have time to fiddle with that later, but if you download [pitchEnv~] you can give it a shot too. William -- William Brent www.williambrent.com “Great minds flock together” Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century www.conflations.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Thanks guys, that's really helpful - got things a bit straighter. So can I say for clarification (and I noticed it came up on an earlier thread when (of the top of my head) someone was asking why the attack settings didn't work for tracks and they had to use [env~] - vibrato stabletime minpower growth Have no effect when in 'tracks' mode./? Not really sure what to do with the viola d'amore source sounds if they are just not going to be stable. Having the huge hop npts settings seems kinda counter-productive and also introduces a significant delay. I guess if I want a smoother sound I could always sample and loop a small portion of the viola sound as he plays. My thinking atm is to go with the sound from sigmund 'cos that IS the sound. BTW, I started out with fiddle~ and sigmund is much more responsive and more importantly better sounding. Anyway back to the flags and my attacks and decays I guess. Very best wishes, Julian On 16 February 2011 03:16, Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu wrote: Perhaps this should be a new thread but why does sigmund have a frequency range of 100,000hz, and what would be a decent useable range from practical experience? Strange - I never read that part of the help patch carefully. It's even stranger because it actually says the default maxfreq is 1,000,000 Hz, not 100,000. I'll assume there's a good reason for this that I'm just missing. But otherwise I think I'm understanding that setting in the same way you are: it puts a cap on the highest spectrum component that you want [sigmund~] to report. Assuming that's correct, I'd say you're safe capping it at 15kHz. That'll keep the number of oscillators you need practical without losing serious high end detail. But I think the best advice is to trust your ears...with some sounds (like speech) you might not be disturbed if you cap it at 10kHz. The default maximum frequency of a million means that, on most existing audio hardware, there's effectively no limit. Sigmund~ can never report a frequency above the Nyquist, so unless the sample rate is more than two MhZ the Nyquist is the effective limit. It's usually OK to leave it at the default, but for some instruments the pitch output is more stable when it's set lower. cheers Miller ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Hey William, Appreciate the involvement... Unfortunately I'm on W7 atm. My main patch uses the MSD lib and after what I thought was a trivial problem with using it in Puredyne (my regular distro), last Nov, MSD is still not working for me. Fortunately I bought a 2nd hand lappy with W7 on it early Dec, so have been working in that since. The instrumentalist is a Mac guy but that doesn't help me prepare the piece. So yeah, a long way round of asking do you have a windows version? Funnily enough I was nosy'ing around your site a couple of months ago and d/l'd the timbre ID lib for further research. Looks well good:) Best wishes, Julian On 16 February 2011 19:02, William Brent william.br...@gmail.com wrote: Good to know about the reason for the 1Mhz maxfreq... Not really sure what to do with the viola d'amore source sounds if they are just not going to be stable. I think if you can settle for fewer harmonics and work out the flag logic there's hope yet. Another thing that occurred to me is that since the scratchy noise part of the viol sound is likely what's making the tracking jumpy, you could try to remove the noise. I've been working on an external that lets you rescale the amplitudes of harmonics in a pitched signal. There's an early draft on my website - it's called [pitchEnv~]. Using that, I scaled all the harmonics of your sample to 0, so that all the pitch related components are erased from the signal. The attached wav file is what's left...basically all the scratchy noise. Then I tried subtracting that noise from the original signal (delayed slightly based on the time it takes to do this analysis), and it did clean up the noise some. It wasn't perfect, but with some work this could produce a signal you send to [sigmund~] that would be more easily tracked out. I might have time to fiddle with that later, but if you download [pitchEnv~] you can give it a shot too. William ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Hey William, Ho hum..., Cheers for having a look though. I'm not completely clear about the continuation flags? I can see from the help file that they're there but what do they mean? Perhaps this should be a new thread but why does sigmund have a frequency range of 100,000hz, and what would be a decent useable range from practical experience? Regards, Julian On 13 February 2011 02:50, William Brent william.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Julian, I just looked at the patches and I hear what you're talking about now. The erratic changes are because it's really hard to get nice smooth tracks by analyzing this kind of signal. With violin samples I got useable results, but the rougher timbre of your viol has a lot of high frequencies that emerge and disappear unpredictably. I think that getting 48 stable tracks out of it is probably a lost cause...even with only 10 it was pretty bad with sigmund~'s default settings. The only way I could imagine improving things is to use the flag that shows up with each track list to indicate whether it's a new track or a continuation of an old one. With that information, you could try fading in new tracks on free oscillators in the bank to avoid the sudden discontinuity when frequency jumps by a huge amount. Data from a continuing track could safely be sent to the same oscillator. I guess you could also EQ it to get rid of those unpredictable high frequencies - I plotted the spectrogram and the most troublesome ones are above 2500Hz. Of course, that would also put a big damper on the timbre you're interested in... I wish I had a great solution for you, but this is a tough one. Assigning frequencies to specific oscillators in your bank based on track flags really seems like the best bet. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: Right then, I have only sent one sample only: '7_45_A_violadamore.wav' (7-string number, 45-midi number, A-note) which you will need to send into sigmund~ - I'm using [throw~ viola_samples] to get it in. From sigmund~ it goes into '[pd sine_output] then thrown to [sines] which has a switch~, top right. I'm using GEM and MSD to create a 'swarm' which has the partials mapped to it so I haven't included my output~ as that would mean including loads of extra files. So you will need an output~ to [catch~] the 2 track [throws~] [throw~ revsound_L] [throw~ revsound_R] I suppose it's quite possible that as your not receiving any pan info the audio will be stuck either left or right anyway? What I was trying to achieve with the [attdec_gen2] inside [sine_rev_gen_2] was a simple attack and decay but what is happening is that they are being triggered all the time, aargh. I would really like the amp and freq from sigmund~ to be as quick and as smooth as possible, so any assistance with that will be hugely helpful. As I'm not hugely confident in my programming abilities please point out any obvious mistakes and any and all tips and tricks/elegant solutions gratefully accepted. Really appreciate the help people. Cheers, Julian On 11 February 2011 21:18, J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: Hey William, Many thanks for offering to have a look at this for me. I'm currently trying to extricate the offending section out of what has now ballooned up into a very involved patch (certainly for me anyway). In the process of doing this I have realised that I am mistakenly constantly sending attacks and decays to the[osc~]'s. It would probably be best for me to just send it 'as is' rather than trying to sort it out. I'm somewhat in over my head with this as it is (maybe not always a bad place to be) and could really do with some advice/help/coding-elegance as my brain is starting to melt. Mathieu, If you mean the tuning of the viola, yes it's the standard D Maj tuning, low to high A D A D F# A D. Very best wishes, Julian P.S. Back soon On 10 February 2011 23:16, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, William Brent wrote: I'm doing a piece with a viola d'amore (7 string viol) Oops, that's not a violin :) I don't know the lowest note on that one offhand... Is everybody only ever using the default tuning on those things ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC -- William Brent www.williambrent.com “Great minds flock together” Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century www.conflations.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
I'm not completely clear about the continuation flags? I can see from the help file that they're there but what do they mean? On every analysis period, several track reports are output in a burst. These provide the frequency and amplitude of what [sigmund~] considers the most important components in the spectrum. It does its best to find continuity between the components in the current frame and those in the previous frame. Of course, sometimes it fails to connect things nicely, sometimes there are new components that weren't there last time, and sometimes old components disappear. That's why each track report has its own flag. If it's a new track that flag will be 1. If it's a continuation of a previously existing track, the flag will be 0. So you can do some patching logic to make sure that continuing track information is always routed to the appropriate oscillator in your bank (i.e., the one that is already tuned to roughly that frequency). If you have a new track with a flag of 1, you'd want to send that track information to a silent (currently free) oscillator in your bank, and fade it up to the desired amplitude so that you don't hear a click from sudden change in frequency. Perhaps this should be a new thread but why does sigmund have a frequency range of 100,000hz, and what would be a decent useable range from practical experience? Strange - I never read that part of the help patch carefully. It's even stranger because it actually says the default maxfreq is 1,000,000 Hz, not 100,000. I'll assume there's a good reason for this that I'm just missing. But otherwise I think I'm understanding that setting in the same way you are: it puts a cap on the highest spectrum component that you want [sigmund~] to report. Assuming that's correct, I'd say you're safe capping it at 15kHz. That'll keep the number of oscillators you need practical without losing serious high end detail. But I think the best advice is to trust your ears...with some sounds (like speech) you might not be disturbed if you cap it at 10kHz. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Perhaps this should be a new thread but why does sigmund have a frequency range of 100,000hz, and what would be a decent useable range from practical experience? Strange - I never read that part of the help patch carefully. It's even stranger because it actually says the default maxfreq is 1,000,000 Hz, not 100,000. I'll assume there's a good reason for this that I'm just missing. But otherwise I think I'm understanding that setting in the same way you are: it puts a cap on the highest spectrum component that you want [sigmund~] to report. Assuming that's correct, I'd say you're safe capping it at 15kHz. That'll keep the number of oscillators you need practical without losing serious high end detail. But I think the best advice is to trust your ears...with some sounds (like speech) you might not be disturbed if you cap it at 10kHz. The default maximum frequency of a million means that, on most existing audio hardware, there's effectively no limit. Sigmund~ can never report a frequency above the Nyquist, so unless the sample rate is more than two MhZ the Nyquist is the effective limit. It's usually OK to leave it at the default, but for some instruments the pitch output is more stable when it's set lower. cheers Miller ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Hi Julian, I just looked at the patches and I hear what you're talking about now. The erratic changes are because it's really hard to get nice smooth tracks by analyzing this kind of signal. With violin samples I got useable results, but the rougher timbre of your viol has a lot of high frequencies that emerge and disappear unpredictably. I think that getting 48 stable tracks out of it is probably a lost cause...even with only 10 it was pretty bad with sigmund~'s default settings. The only way I could imagine improving things is to use the flag that shows up with each track list to indicate whether it's a new track or a continuation of an old one. With that information, you could try fading in new tracks on free oscillators in the bank to avoid the sudden discontinuity when frequency jumps by a huge amount. Data from a continuing track could safely be sent to the same oscillator. I guess you could also EQ it to get rid of those unpredictable high frequencies - I plotted the spectrogram and the most troublesome ones are above 2500Hz. Of course, that would also put a big damper on the timbre you're interested in... I wish I had a great solution for you, but this is a tough one. Assigning frequencies to specific oscillators in your bank based on track flags really seems like the best bet. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: Right then, I have only sent one sample only: '7_45_A_violadamore.wav' (7-string number, 45-midi number, A-note) which you will need to send into sigmund~ - I'm using [throw~ viola_samples] to get it in. From sigmund~ it goes into '[pd sine_output] then thrown to [sines] which has a switch~, top right. I'm using GEM and MSD to create a 'swarm' which has the partials mapped to it so I haven't included my output~ as that would mean including loads of extra files. So you will need an output~ to [catch~] the 2 track [throws~] [throw~ revsound_L] [throw~ revsound_R] I suppose it's quite possible that as your not receiving any pan info the audio will be stuck either left or right anyway? What I was trying to achieve with the [attdec_gen2] inside [sine_rev_gen_2] was a simple attack and decay but what is happening is that they are being triggered all the time, aargh. I would really like the amp and freq from sigmund~ to be as quick and as smooth as possible, so any assistance with that will be hugely helpful. As I'm not hugely confident in my programming abilities please point out any obvious mistakes and any and all tips and tricks/elegant solutions gratefully accepted. Really appreciate the help people. Cheers, Julian On 11 February 2011 21:18, J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: Hey William, Many thanks for offering to have a look at this for me. I'm currently trying to extricate the offending section out of what has now ballooned up into a very involved patch (certainly for me anyway). In the process of doing this I have realised that I am mistakenly constantly sending attacks and decays to the[osc~]'s. It would probably be best for me to just send it 'as is' rather than trying to sort it out. I'm somewhat in over my head with this as it is (maybe not always a bad place to be) and could really do with some advice/help/coding-elegance as my brain is starting to melt. Mathieu, If you mean the tuning of the viola, yes it's the standard D Maj tuning, low to high A D A D F# A D. Very best wishes, Julian P.S. Back soon On 10 February 2011 23:16, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, William Brent wrote: I'm doing a piece with a viola d'amore (7 string viol) Oops, that's not a violin :) I don't know the lowest note on that one offhand... Is everybody only ever using the default tuning on those things ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC -- William Brent www.williambrent.com “Great minds flock together” Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century www.conflations.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Hey William, Many thanks for offering to have a look at this for me. I'm currently trying to extricate the offending section out of what has now ballooned up into a very involved patch (certainly for me anyway). In the process of doing this I have realised that I am mistakenly constantly sending attacks and decays to the[osc~]'s. It would probably be best for me to just send it 'as is' rather than trying to sort it out. I'm somewhat in over my head with this as it is (maybe not always a bad place to be) and could really do with some advice/help/coding-elegance as my brain is starting to melt. Mathieu, If you mean the tuning of the viola, yes it's the standard D Maj tuning, low to high A D A D F# A D. Very best wishes, Julian P.S. Back soon On 10 February 2011 23:16, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, William Brent wrote: I'm doing a piece with a viola d'amore (7 string viol) Oops, that's not a violin :) I don't know the lowest note on that one offhand... Is everybody only ever using the default tuning on those things ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
I'm doing a piece with a viola d'amore (7 string viol) Oops, that's not a violin :) I don't know the lowest note on that one offhand... ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Could you make a simple example patch that demonstrates the rhythmicized/pulsed result that you don't like? Without knowing exactly what's going on in your patch, my first question would be whether or not you're smoothing the frequencies and amplitudes with a [line~] or something else. Maybe sudden changes due to fleeting tracking errors cause glitches that pulse in sync with the analysis period? With a violin as input you should get a reasonable enough spectrum to get stable harmonic tracking with a window much smaller than 65536. The low G on a violin is 196Hz, so the bin spacing you'd get with -npts 4096 would give plenty of resolution for catching multiples of that fundamental and higher ones, and only 92ms of extra delay. The hop setting you choose will just affect how often the information is updated (and CPU usage too). You should expect to deal with some temporary tracking errors during moments like attacks, where components of the spectrum won't be in a perfectly harmonic relationship. Going beyond 131072 points using Pd's built-in mayer_fft() has given me garbage as output in the past. Maybe someone else knows something about this limitation? On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 11:41 AM, J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I'm doing a piece with a viola d'amore (7 string viol) where [sigmund~] is analysing the live input and feeding 48 tracks/partials to a bank of 48 [osc~] for resynthesis and a bit of jiggery-pokery, mainly reversing the amplitudes so the quietest partials are the loudest and vice versa. The viola is playing long(ish) single notes between 1-3 seconds and the problem I am having is that when sigmund processes the partials they come out rhythmicised/pulses which seems to be a combination of the 'hop' and 'npts' settings. As the values for hop and npts get higher the pulses get longer up until my current huge setting: [sigmund~ -npts 65536 -hop 65536 -npeak 48 tracks] when the partial frequencies balance out into steady lines. I have also tried -hop 131072 which works too but trying that with the -npts completely locks pd. The problem I have now is that there is a significant delay between the beginning of the processing in comparison to the viola and worse still is the overlap after the viola has stopped playing. Also the viola notes are indeterminate so I can't just set a cutoff to sync the two together. I could use the input of the viola to gate the tail of the processing but I am currently using a combination of [env~] and [lop~] so that as the performer plays his amplitude controls the processing in reverse, so when he's loud the processing is quiet etc. I suppose I can add another layer on top of the end I am aware that the gap between the two sounding events is caused by the huge window sizes I am using and that there may well be no way around this to get the kind of sound from the processing I'm looking for, i.e. without the pulses, but I am wondering if anyone has any tips and tricks I can apply to try and bring the two sounds, viola and processing, closer together. Or ideally some way of achieving the smoother processing with lower npts and hop settings. This is for a live performance btw. All good wishes, Julian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- William Brent www.williambrent.com “Great minds flock together” Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century www.conflations.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, William Brent wrote: I'm doing a piece with a viola d'amore (7 string viol) Oops, that's not a violin :) I don't know the lowest note on that one offhand... Is everybody only ever using the default tuning on those things ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Sigmund~ and tracks.
Hi all, I'm doing a piece with a viola d'amore (7 string viol) where [sigmund~] is analysing the live input and feeding 48 tracks/partials to a bank of 48 [osc~] for resynthesis and a bit of jiggery-pokery, mainly reversing the amplitudes so the quietest partials are the loudest and vice versa. The viola is playing long(ish) single notes between 1-3 seconds and the problem I am having is that when sigmund processes the partials they come out rhythmicised/pulses which seems to be a combination of the 'hop' and 'npts' settings. As the values for hop and npts get higher the pulses get longer up until my current huge setting: [sigmund~ -npts 65536 -hop 65536 -npeak 48 tracks] when the partial frequencies balance out into steady lines. I have also tried -hop 131072 which works too but trying that with the -npts completely locks pd. The problem I have now is that there is a significant delay between the beginning of the processing in comparison to the viola and worse still is the overlap after the viola has stopped playing. Also the viola notes are indeterminate so I can't just set a cutoff to sync the two together. I could use the input of the viola to gate the tail of the processing but I am currently using a combination of [env~] and [lop~] so that as the performer plays his amplitude controls the processing in reverse, so when he's loud the processing is quiet etc. I suppose I can add another layer on top of the end I am aware that the gap between the two sounding events is caused by the huge window sizes I am using and that there may well be no way around this to get the kind of sound from the processing I'm looking for, i.e. without the pulses, but I am wondering if anyone has any tips and tricks I can apply to try and bring the two sounds, viola and processing, closer together. Or ideally some way of achieving the smoother processing with lower npts and hop settings. This is for a live performance btw. All good wishes, Julian ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] sigmund~ constant noise problem
hi, I'm using sigmund~ to get sound input from microphone(with adc~), the data is controling the movement of gem objects. But it seems that the sigmund~ respond to silence as well and react in a constant change of the data. Is there a way to control this noise? Thanks, shaul ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund~ constant noise problem
Shaul Tzemach wrote: hi, I'm using sigmund~ to get sound input from microphone(with adc~), the data is controling the movement of gem objects. But it seems that the sigmund~ respond to silence as well and react in a constant change of the data. Is there a way to control this noise? Depends on the 'noise' and what is producing it. Ideally you should first of all try to achieve the best signal:noise ratio for the signal you want to use to feed sigmund~. After which you might try some sort of gating, depending on the source type (you talk about silence so you could look at e.g. at [threshold~] or [env~]) and application. Lorenzo Thanks, shaul ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund~ constant noise problem
Hi, I always put a [env] to gate the sigmund data ouput. Whenever [env] gets below a certains level (basically that of your noise), you use a [ X] to output a binary number (0 when it goes below X), which then controls a [spigot], which blocks the data flowing from sigmund. The only tricky part is to tune this to the right noise level. Pierre 2011/1/9 Lorenzo Sutton lsut...@libero.it Shaul Tzemach wrote: hi, I'm using sigmund~ to get sound input from microphone(with adc~), the data is controling the movement of gem objects. But it seems that the sigmund~ respond to silence as well and react in a constant change of the data. Is there a way to control this noise? Depends on the 'noise' and what is producing it. Ideally you should first of all try to achieve the best signal:noise ratio for the signal you want to use to feed sigmund~. After which you might try some sort of gating, depending on the source type (you talk about silence so you could look at e.g. at [threshold~] or [env~]) and application. Lorenzo Thanks, shaul ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund~ Vs fiddle~
On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 05:50:22PM -0400, Alexandre Porres wrote: simple basic question: Any special considerations of how they differ? I'm willing to do pitch tracking and also getting lists of partials and frequency in realtime. Check http://www.mail-archive.com/pd-list@iem.at/msg30524.html Btw.: I couldn't find this thread using the search engine on http://lists.puredata.info searching for fiddle sigmund or pitch tracking sinusoidal analysis or various combinations of these. What am I doing wrong? Ciao -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [sigmund~] and [fiddle~]
Hallo, Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Mon, 12/7/09, Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org wrote: Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Can [sigmund~] do everything [fiddle~] can do (or do it better)? I leave the first part of the question as a task to the reader of both help files. I don't understand: Does this mean you haven't read them? That you have and it's obvious? That you have and it isn't? I'm sorry, my attempt to be funny seemed to have failed horribly. Both sigmund~ and fiddle~ do pitch tracking and sinusoidal analysis, i.e. track partials in a signal. Where fiddle~ uses a fixed set of outlets to report various pitch info, sigmund~ reconfigures its outlets according to arguments. Both fiddle~ and sigmund~ can give similar info, in fact it's almost the same. I won't repeat these here, for this indeed check the help files. sigmund~ doesn't have an explicit attack outlet, instead you use the more musical note outlet, which combines pitch and attack info. The various internal configuration settings of both objects are practically the same as well, some are reorganized a bit( i.e. amp-range is gone in sigmund~ which instead offers minpower and growth) Unless I'm overlooking something, neither help patch mentions the other object. Obviously [sigmund~] has a lot more goodies than [fiddle~], but without spending a long span of time studying each object in depth, it's unclear whether some functions of [fiddle~] were left out of [sigmund~] or subsumed under one of its new features. Obviously it's not that obvious. :) (I'm trying to be funny here again!) As I see it sigmund~ doesn't have that many new goodies (except table analysis). It seems to be more like a cosmetic rewrite to make it easier to use than fiddle~. The number of outlets has been reduced and their meaning is clearer IMO. But under the hood I think it uses a better algorithm. In my experiments it reports pitch faster and more reliable and stable than fiddle~. So if you can use sigmund~ I would recommend it over fiddle~ as a replacement. Ciao -- Frank ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [sigmund~] and [fiddle~]
But under the hood I think it uses a better algorithm. In my experiments it reports pitch faster and more reliable and stable than fiddle~. So if you can use sigmund~ I would recommend it over fiddle~ as a replacement. Back in the LAC 2008 in Cologne, I asked Miller that very question: what is the difference between fiddle~ and sigmund~. He said sigmund~ was the best pitch tracker he had programmed so far. So I guess fiddle is still alive just for compatibility reasons. alabala -- ypatios ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [sigmund~] and [fiddle~]
I only have little experience, but from what I've seen so far is that pitch detection with sigmund~ is faster than fiddle~. On the other hand I found the level setting 'minpower' not working or at least nor responsive to changes that I tried out. I do not have experimented with the corresponding settings in fiddle~. Jurgen On Dec 8, 2009, at 6:10 PM, ypatios wrote: But under the hood I think it uses a better algorithm. In my experiments it reports pitch faster and more reliable and stable than fiddle~. So if you can use sigmund~ I would recommend it over fiddle~ as a replacement. Back in the LAC 2008 in Cologne, I asked Miller that very question: what is the difference between fiddle~ and sigmund~. He said sigmund~ was the best pitch tracker he had programmed so far. So I guess fiddle is still alive just for compatibility reasons. alabala -- ypatios ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [sigmund~] and [fiddle~]
Hallo, Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Can [sigmund~] do everything [fiddle~] can do (or do it better)? I leave the first part of the question as a task to the reader of both help files. About the second part: In my tests, [sigmund~] indeed did it better. Ciao -- Frank ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [sigmund~] and [fiddle~]
--- On Mon, 12/7/09, Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org wrote: From: Frank Barknecht f...@footils.org Subject: Re: [PD] [sigmund~] and [fiddle~] To: pd-list@iem.at Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 10:04 AM Hallo, Jonathan Wilkes hat gesagt: // Jonathan Wilkes wrote: Can [sigmund~] do everything [fiddle~] can do (or do it better)? I leave the first part of the question as a task to the reader of both help files. I don't understand: Does this mean you haven't read them? That you have and it's obvious? That you have and it isn't? Unless I'm overlooking something, neither help patch mentions the other object. Obviously [sigmund~] has a lot more goodies than [fiddle~], but without spending a long span of time studying each object in depth, it's unclear whether some functions of [fiddle~] were left out of [sigmund~] or subsumed under one of its new features. If anyone has some experience using both objects, it would be nice to add a sentence to [sigmund~]'s help patch clarifying its relationship to [fiddle~] (and vice versa). Thanks, Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] [sigmund~] and [fiddle~]
Hello, Can [sigmund~] do everything [fiddle~] can do (or do it better)? BTW: I'm finding that to use [sigmund~] with tables, the -t flag is unnecessary-- just remove it in the example in the subpatch and you get the same results. Not sure if that's a bug or not, but it makes me wonder: what's the purpose of having the -t flag? Thanks, Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund~ env output
Hmm - there shouldn't be any difference between sigmund~'s env output and that of env~. What latform are you on? Perhaps I should check this out. This is on the winXP version. thanks Oded ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] sigmund~ env output
Hmm - there shouldn't be any difference between sigmund~'s env output and that of env~. What latform are you on? Perhaps I should check this out. cheers Miller On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 03:51:44AM -0700, Oded Ben-Tal wrote: should the output of: [sigmund~ env] be the same (or very similar) to the output of [env~] I think there is a typo in the help file (where env == notes). but I get pretty wild output from sigmund that bears no relation (that I can hear) to the input sound envelope. I'm using pd-extended 0.40.3 Oded ___ Oded Ben-Tal http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~oded o...@ccrma.stanford.edu ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] sigmund~ env output
should the output of: [sigmund~ env] be the same (or very similar) to the output of [env~] I think there is a typo in the help file (where env == notes). but I get pretty wild output from sigmund that bears no relation (that I can hear) to the input sound envelope. I'm using pd-extended 0.40.3 Oded ___ Oded Ben-Tal http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~oded o...@ccrma.stanford.edu ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis) (robbert van hulzen)
Hi Jared, You can find Pd 0.40-2 here http://crca.ucsd.edu/~msp/software.html it should have sigmund~ in it. best, Jaime [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.realidadvisual.org/jaimeoliver www-crca.ucsd.edu/ www.realidadvisual.org On 4/3/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Send PD-list mailing list submissions to pd-list@iem.at To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of PD-list digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: frequency graphing in gem (Luigi Rensinghoff) 2. Re: Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis) (robbert van hulzen) 3. Re: frequency graphing in gem (Patco) 4. Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-test7-windowsxp missing objects (Derek Holzer) 5. Re: boids2d, boids3d (Roman Haefeli) 6. berlin (Enrique Erne) 7. Sorta OT - More touring (Dafydd Hughes) 8. Pd-0.39.2-extended-test7-windowsxp missing objects (robbert van hulzen) 9. Re: Sorta OT - More touring (Georg Holzmann) 10. rme cards with mbp (marius schebella) 11. [Gem] playlist abstraction for [pix_film] (Thomas Mayer) 12. Re: Pd-0.39.2-extended-test7-windowsxp missing objects (Hans-Christoph Steiner) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 12:42:40 +0200 From: Luigi Rensinghoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PD] frequency graphing in gem To: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed There was a thread not too long ago http://lists.puredata.info/search/PD-list? query=wavdisplaymax=20result=normalsort=score thats a search result on the pd-list for wavdisplay There shuld be a working patch Luigi pd Am 03.04.2007 um 10:39 schrieb Peter Plessas: Have a look at Gem's [scopeXYZ~] too lgPP Nose Hair wrote: I'm trying to get an audio graph to work in gem. I would like it to show the waveform like a table. I have gotten as far as getting a good sample graph but it doesnt work as expected with frequency. Any help would be apreciated. I have included my patch files. The main one is called waveform. Thanks Alain - --- ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:38:26 +0200 From: robbert van hulzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PD] Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis) To: David Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED], pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII hmmm... maybe i did... what would good old sigmund f himself have to say about this little slip? On 4/2/07 9:50 PM, David Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 4/2/07, robbert van hulzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: alternatively, if you don't want to compile yourself: the 0.40.2 autobuilds on puredate.info have recent versions (i assume you want = 0.40.2 because of [sigmund~]). Hi, I think you mean: puredata.info NOT pureDATE.info ;-) ~David -- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 12:57:58 +0200 From: Patco [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PD] frequency graphing in gem To: Nose Hair [EMAIL PROTECTED], pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Nose Hair a ?crit : I'm trying to get an audio graph to work in gem. I would like it to show the waveform like a table. I have gotten as far as getting a good sample graph but it doesnt work as expected with frequency. Any help would be apreciated. I have included my patch files. The main one is called waveform. Thanks Alain ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list hi, take a look at this: http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2005-06/028944.html -- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:11:43 +0200 From: Derek Holzer [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [PD] Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis)
hmmm... maybe i did... what would good old sigmund f himself have to say about this little slip? On 4/2/07 9:50 PM, David Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 4/2/07, robbert van hulzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: alternatively, if you don't want to compile yourself: the 0.40.2 autobuilds on puredate.info have recent versions (i assume you want = 0.40.2 because of [sigmund~]). Hi, I think you mean: puredata.info NOT pureDATE.info ;-) ~David ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis)
Jared wrote: robbert van hulzen wrote: a dotted line indicates that the object can't be created, i think it gets the status of a comment. you also see it in the pd window: sigmund~ ... couldn't create. [sort] is part of zexy, works for me also in 0.39.2-ext-test7. do other zexy objects get created? [sigmund~]--which looks really interesting!--works only on 0.40.2 for me-- it's in miller's 0.40.2 and in the autobuild of 18 march i'm trying out. the help-file says 'updated for 0.40' though, so i don't know its history. btw the autobuild comes with the warning stuff may not work--in my case, [moog~] for example won't be created. cheers, robbert Appologies for my lack of experience, but where would I get zexy? Or check to see if I have it? Likewise, for 0.40.2, where would I get that? From http://puredata.info/downloads or elsewhere? ftp://ftp.iem.at/pub/pd/Externals/ZEXY/ however, this might not be the most uptodate version, which you will only get via CVS (see puredata.info for more info on this); in the latter case, you will have to compile it yourself. mfga.sdr IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis)
alternatively, if you don't want to compile yourself: the 0.40.2 autobuilds on puredate.info have recent versions (i assume you want = 0.40.2 because of [sigmund~]). On 4/2/07 12:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: for 0.40.2, where would I get that? From http://puredata.info/downloads or elsewhere? ftp://ftp.iem.at/pub/pd/Externals/ZEXY/ however, this might not be the most uptodate version, which you will only get via CVS (see puredata.info for more info on this); in the latter case, you will have to compile it yourself. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis)
On 4/2/07, robbert van hulzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: alternatively, if you don't want to compile yourself: the 0.40.2 autobuilds on puredate.info have recent versions (i assume you want = 0.40.2 because of [sigmund~]). Hi, I think you mean: puredata.info NOT pureDATE.info ;-) ~David ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis)
robbert van hulzen wrote: a dotted line indicates that the object can't be created, i think it gets the status of a comment. you also see it in the pd window: sigmund~ ... couldn't create. [sort] is part of zexy, works for me also in 0.39.2-ext-test7. do other zexy objects get created? [sigmund~]--which looks really interesting!--works only on 0.40.2 for me-- it's in miller's 0.40.2 and in the autobuild of 18 march i'm trying out. the help-file says 'updated for 0.40' though, so i don't know its history. btw the autobuild comes with the warning stuff may not work--in my case, [moog~] for example won't be created. cheers, robbert Appologies for my lack of experience, but where would I get zexy? Or check to see if I have it? Likewise, for 0.40.2, where would I get that? From http://puredata.info/downloads or elsewhere? Thanks again, and sorry if these are questions with obvious answers. -Jared ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Sigmund and Sort (Was Real-time frequency filtering and analysis)
Jaime Oliver wrote: you could also check sigmund~ it will give you a list of frequencies and amplitudes in order of amplitude. J I think this is a result of my lack of experience with PD, but when I create an object and put sigmund~ in it the border stays dotted. The same thing was happening when I tried to use sort (which I thought was built-in, although I could be wrong). Am I doing something wrong, or do I need to install extra patches/libraries? I'm using 0.39-2, the default install on Ubuntu. Thanks again for everyone's help! -Jared ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
