Re: [PD] DSP crashing - PD freezes.

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

OK, I've uploaded the fix (I hope correctly) to msp.ucsd.edu/software.html,
as "0.53-2test1".  If that seems to work for everyone I'll rename it "0.53-2".

Thanks to all the help from several people (and to the portaudio folks!)

Miller
On Sat, Feb 04, 2023 at 03:09:21PM -0800, Theron Trowbridge wrote:
> It works on my Mac Mini M1 (upgraded to Ventura 13.2 last night) as well.
> The callbacks setting doesn't seem to have any obvious effect, but I didn't
> do anything too crazy with it.
> 
> Thanks for all the troubleshooting on this, it's a big help for me right
> now!
> 
> 
> -Theron
> ^
> 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 3:22 AM Dan Wilcox  wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Feb 4, 2023, at 11:46 AM, Denis Połeć  wrote:
> >
> > As far as I can tell, everything is going smoothly with the callback
> > settings.
> > However, I still haven't quite understood what it is for.
> >
> >
> > There was some discussion, maybe a year ago, about changing the name of
> > this option and finding ways to make it clear what it does.
> >
> > Copy/paste from Christof's email replay to Romain, to which you were not
> > in CC:
> >
> >  Are there situations when using
> > callbacks  (on CoreAudio) bring any benefit?
> >
> >
> > With "callbacks" enabled, Pd runs directly on the audio thread.
> > Generally, this is not really recommended because Pd itself is not
> > realtime safe. Many operations block for an indeterminate amount of
> > time, e.g. any call to "malloc()", network IO, file system operations,
> > etc. The upside is that you can avoid some extra delay (see below).
> >
> > With Pd's ringbuffer scheduler (= "callbacks" disabled), you can freely
> > adjust the delay according to? your needs. (The "delay" parameter
> > basically sets the size of the ringbuffer.) The price you pay is some
> > extra delay (1x the hardware buffer size). To minimize this extra delay,
> > you would set the /hardware buffer size/ as low as possible (e.g. 64
> > samples) since the audio callback does nothing but transfer a bunch of
> > samples. In this case, the extra latency would be as low as 64 samples,
> > so nothing to worry about too much.
> >
> > (The "callback" option can indeed make a noticable difference when using
> > Jack with larger block sizes. Ideally you would just use the smallest
> > Jack block size possible, but this might not work well for other Jack
> > clients...)
> >
> > As a side note: up until now, Pd's scheduler thread regularly goes to
> > sleep for a fixed duration, so it may wake up a bit too late. If the
> > delay setting is too low, this can lead to drop outs. With my
> > "scheduler_fix" branch, the scheduler thread waits on a semaphore and is
> > notified immediately when audio data is available. In my experience so
> > far, this allows for lower "delay" settings than before.
> >
> > Christof
> >
> >
> > 
> > Dan Wilcox
> > @danomatika 
> >  >  >
> > danomatika.com
> > robotcowboy.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >  
> >



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Re: [PD] DSP crashing - PD freezes.

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Bizarre... looks like the compile flags went whack somehow (API 4 is
portaudio, which is precisely what I updated).  I'll dig around in the
compiler output and see if I can psychoanalyse...

thanks
Miller

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 10:12:08PM -0800, Theron Trowbridge wrote:
> Mac Mini M1, Ventura 13.1
> 
> It works better in some ways - the windows close and things quit when I ask
> them to. I don't have to force quit, and it doesn't seem to be messing up
> audio on the computer.
> 
> But when I turn on the DSP the output console just spams "unknown API" over
> and over again, and when I go into audios settings, I don't see my usual
> devices. The input device list has three options: "input device #1", "input
> device #2" and "input device #3" and there is no pull-down menu for output
> device, but only says "(same as input device)..." And I can't get it to
> make any sound.
> 
> When I turn off DSP, it outputs "sys_close_audio: unknown API 4"
> 
> 
> -Theron
> ^
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:24 PM Miller Puckette  wrote:
> 
> > OK (and thanks to Zmoelnig's CI machine)- here's a version of Pd with
> > the newest stable portaudio - can someone with MacOS 13 test this and see
> > if
> > the problem is still there?
> >
> > http://msp.ucsd.edu/tmp/pure-data_pa-v19.7.0_Darwin.zip
> >
> > cheers
> > Miller
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 01:28:14PM -0800, Miller Puckette via Pd-list
> > wrote:
> > > Thanks for the heads-up... Pd is carrying around a rather old version of
> > > portaudio - I'm in the middle of trying to update ot the latest stable
> > version,
> > > will let you know when I have something you can try...
> > >
> > > Miller
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 01:46:22PM -0800, Theron Trowbridge wrote:
> > > > I have similar issues on my Mac Mini M1 running Ventura 13.1. If I do
> > > > anything to generate audio, I cannot get it to quit normally, and have
> > to
> > > > force quit. It also screws up audio playback on the machine a little
> > bit
> > > > (pausing a YouTube video stutters a few times before it ceases to play
> > > > audio, for example) until I restart the computer (didn't think to try
> > and
> > > > kill the CoreAudio process).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Theron
> > > > ^
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:09 PM William Brent <
> > william.br...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This was originally reported on this list Oct 27 2022 (see this
> > thread
> > > > > <
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2022-10/131609.html__;!!Mih3wA!FTX7ZBUz4d6gyF2FNd0fVyy0AM3EJ8dsNg5XR5I0kLxUB_tQoZnnxvzASC7vdL5WsMyhuRfHPRhHSzQZ9RwRUfQ$
> > >), and
> > > > > I can also confirm it second-hand via someone I'm currently
> > collaborating
> > > > > with. He accidentally upgraded to Ventura and since then has been
> > unable to
> > > > > quit Pd using Pd menu/Quit or command-Q. It's the only reason I
> > haven't
> > > > > upgraded to macOS 13!
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 2:26 PM Phil Stone 
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I cannot reproduce it by disabling/enabling DSP on an M1 Macbook
> > running
> > > > >> Monterrey and Pd 0.53-1.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> *From: *Pd-list  on behalf of Denis
> > Połeć <
> > > > >> denis.po...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> *Date: *Monday, January 30, 2023 at 11:10 AM
> > > > >> *To: *pd-list@lists.iem.at 
> > > > >> *Subject: *[PD] DSP crashing - PD freezes.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hello everyone,
> > > > >> I am experiencing an issue with Pure Data (0.53-1) on macOS Ventura
> > > > >> (13.2) running on an Apple Silicon machine. Whenever I make changes
> > to some
> > > > >> of the DSP settings, such as disabling and enabling it again, the
> > > > >> application freezes and I have to force close it. This also causes
> > my audio
> > > > >> to crash, and I have to kill CoreAudio in order to get it back up
> > and
> > > > 

Re: [PD] DSP crashing - PD freezes.

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

OK (and thanks to Zmoelnig's CI machine)- here's a version of Pd with
the newest stable portaudio - can someone with MacOS 13 test this and see if
the problem is still there?

http://msp.ucsd.edu/tmp/pure-data_pa-v19.7.0_Darwin.zip

cheers
Miller

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 01:28:14PM -0800, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> Thanks for the heads-up... Pd is carrying around a rather old version of
> portaudio - I'm in the middle of trying to update ot the latest stable 
> version,
> will let you know when I have something you can try...
> 
> Miller
> 
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 01:46:22PM -0800, Theron Trowbridge wrote:
> > I have similar issues on my Mac Mini M1 running Ventura 13.1. If I do
> > anything to generate audio, I cannot get it to quit normally, and have to
> > force quit. It also screws up audio playback on the machine a little bit
> > (pausing a YouTube video stutters a few times before it ceases to play
> > audio, for example) until I restart the computer (didn't think to try and
> > kill the CoreAudio process).
> > 
> > 
> > -Theron
> > ^
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:09 PM William Brent 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > This was originally reported on this list Oct 27 2022 (see this thread
> > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2022-10/131609.html__;!!Mih3wA!FTX7ZBUz4d6gyF2FNd0fVyy0AM3EJ8dsNg5XR5I0kLxUB_tQoZnnxvzASC7vdL5WsMyhuRfHPRhHSzQZ9RwRUfQ$
> > >  >), and
> > > I can also confirm it second-hand via someone I'm currently collaborating
> > > with. He accidentally upgraded to Ventura and since then has been unable 
> > > to
> > > quit Pd using Pd menu/Quit or command-Q. It's the only reason I haven't
> > > upgraded to macOS 13!
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 2:26 PM Phil Stone  wrote:
> > >
> > >> I cannot reproduce it by disabling/enabling DSP on an M1 Macbook running
> > >> Monterrey and Pd 0.53-1.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *From: *Pd-list  on behalf of Denis Połeć <
> > >> denis.po...@gmail.com>
> > >> *Date: *Monday, January 30, 2023 at 11:10 AM
> > >> *To: *pd-list@lists.iem.at 
> > >> *Subject: *[PD] DSP crashing - PD freezes.
> > >>
> > >> Hello everyone,
> > >> I am experiencing an issue with Pure Data (0.53-1) on macOS Ventura
> > >> (13.2) running on an Apple Silicon machine. Whenever I make changes to 
> > >> some
> > >> of the DSP settings, such as disabling and enabling it again, the
> > >> application freezes and I have to force close it. This also causes my 
> > >> audio
> > >> to crash, and I have to kill CoreAudio in order to get it back up and
> > >> running.
> > >>
> > >> Does anyone else experience this issue?
> > >> I have tried older versions, but I am getting the same result. Is this an
> > >> issue with Ventura? Can someone reproduce this?
> > >>
> > >> thanks.
> > >> denis. :)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> > >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
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> > >>  
> > >> ___
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> > >>  
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > William Brent
> > >
> > > “Great minds flock together”
> > > Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.conflations.com__;!!Mih3wA!FTX7ZBUz4d6gyF2FNd0fVyy0AM3EJ8dsNg5XR5I0kLxUB_tQoZnnxvzASC7vdL5WsMyhuRfHPRhHSzQZSCeOCOU$
> > >  
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> > >  
> > >
> 
> > ___
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> >  
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] DSP crashing - PD freezes.

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Thanks for the heads-up... Pd is carrying around a rather old version of
portaudio - I'm in the middle of trying to update ot the latest stable version,
will let you know when I have something you can try...

Miller

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 01:46:22PM -0800, Theron Trowbridge wrote:
> I have similar issues on my Mac Mini M1 running Ventura 13.1. If I do
> anything to generate audio, I cannot get it to quit normally, and have to
> force quit. It also screws up audio playback on the machine a little bit
> (pausing a YouTube video stutters a few times before it ceases to play
> audio, for example) until I restart the computer (didn't think to try and
> kill the CoreAudio process).
> 
> 
> -Theron
> ^
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:09 PM William Brent 
> wrote:
> 
> > This was originally reported on this list Oct 27 2022 (see this thread
> >  >  >), and
> > I can also confirm it second-hand via someone I'm currently collaborating
> > with. He accidentally upgraded to Ventura and since then has been unable to
> > quit Pd using Pd menu/Quit or command-Q. It's the only reason I haven't
> > upgraded to macOS 13!
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 2:26 PM Phil Stone  wrote:
> >
> >> I cannot reproduce it by disabling/enabling DSP on an M1 Macbook running
> >> Monterrey and Pd 0.53-1.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From: *Pd-list  on behalf of Denis Połeć <
> >> denis.po...@gmail.com>
> >> *Date: *Monday, January 30, 2023 at 11:10 AM
> >> *To: *pd-list@lists.iem.at 
> >> *Subject: *[PD] DSP crashing - PD freezes.
> >>
> >> Hello everyone,
> >> I am experiencing an issue with Pure Data (0.53-1) on macOS Ventura
> >> (13.2) running on an Apple Silicon machine. Whenever I make changes to some
> >> of the DSP settings, such as disabling and enabling it again, the
> >> application freezes and I have to force close it. This also causes my audio
> >> to crash, and I have to kill CoreAudio in order to get it back up and
> >> running.
> >>
> >> Does anyone else experience this issue?
> >> I have tried older versions, but I am getting the same result. Is this an
> >> issue with Ventura? Can someone reproduce this?
> >>
> >> thanks.
> >> denis. :)
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>  
> >> ___
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> >>  
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > William Brent
> >
> > “Great minds flock together”
> > Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century
> >
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.conflations.com__;!!Mih3wA!FTX7ZBUz4d6gyF2FNd0fVyy0AM3EJ8dsNg5XR5I0kLxUB_tQoZnnxvzASC7vdL5WsMyhuRfHPRhHSzQZSCeOCOU$
> >  
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> >  
> >

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Re: [PD] verbose object search paths not displaying unless debug4?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 07:27:59PM +0100, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> On 1/24/23 17:36, Peter P. wrote:
> > Hi list,
> > 
> > I am trying to trace the non-loading of an external, iemguts in my case.
> > I enabled verbose messages either in the "Path" preferences or by the 
> > command
> > line flag. Nevertheless the familiar dump of all the places that are
> > being searched is not displayed unless I enable verbose mode 4. Is this
> > intentional and has this behavior been modified recently?
> 
> i guess it was part of the logpost-refactoring:
> https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/1389
> 
> iirc, the outcome is that with "-verbose" you get an extra level of
> verbosity beyond "debug"¹
> 
> to be honest, i think that it's not asking too much to add both "-verbose"
> on the cmdline *and* raise the log-level in the GUI.
> (but then: i typically have set my log-level to "4" anyhow)
> 
> gfmdsar
> IOhannes
> 
> 
> 
> ¹ well not only; there's still the possibility to output at an "error" level
> if and only if "-verbose" was given. but the general idea is what i wrote
> above.

actually, would it work to set the verbose level of -verbose output to
normal?  Since you've already set the verbose flag anyway, I think all
such output ala "if (pd_verbose) ..." should then not be filtered by the
GUI verbose setting.

(I also got bitten by this at least once in the past :)

M

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Re: [PD] Pd download pages are down

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hi all -

I believe the site went down last night but is back up now.

cheers
Miller

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 04:41:55PM +0100, Peter P. wrote:
> Mario, both currently are working from within my country on the european
> continent.
> 
> * mario buoninfante  [2023-01-23 16:22]:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Just wanted to report that at the moment there is no way to download Pd
> > from:
> > 
> >  * 
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://puredata.info/downloads/pure-data__;!!Mih3wA!Gl9wzD4LRO_V-DgtqSMDqrbx9YQpH3JSoaBLNWoIUT5RpBJ1ed7CyMuCTgOBpmd7CoIikYvgFnaBI5Ns28Y$
> >  
> >  * http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.html
> > 
> > because these seem to be both "broken".
> > 
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Mario
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > musician, QA engineer, mental health first aider MHFA England
> > 
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://isoneph.bandcamp.com/__;!!Mih3wA!Gl9wzD4LRO_V-DgtqSMDqrbx9YQpH3JSoaBLNWoIUT5RpBJ1ed7CyMuCTgOBpmd7CoIikYvgFnaB8bqvQjI$
> >  
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://vdof.bandcamp.com/__;!!Mih3wA!Gl9wzD4LRO_V-DgtqSMDqrbx9YQpH3JSoaBLNWoIUT5RpBJ1ed7CyMuCTgOBpmd7CoIikYvgFnaBU7OIFnw$
> >  
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mbuoninfante.tumblr.com__;!!Mih3wA!Gl9wzD4LRO_V-DgtqSMDqrbx9YQpH3JSoaBLNWoIUT5RpBJ1ed7CyMuCTgOBpmd7CoIikYvgFnaB3WzI-3E$
> >  
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://vimeo.com/creativecodingsalerno__;!!Mih3wA!Gl9wzD4LRO_V-DgtqSMDqrbx9YQpH3JSoaBLNWoIUT5RpBJ1ed7CyMuCTgOBpmd7CoIikYvgFnaBJu3ktRg$
> >  
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/mariobuoninfante__;!!Mih3wA!Gl9wzD4LRO_V-DgtqSMDqrbx9YQpH3JSoaBLNWoIUT5RpBJ1ed7CyMuCTgOBpmd7CoIikYvgFnaBeCNhz1s$
> >  
> 
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> >  
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Pd0.53-1 for Windows downloads look like Pd0.53-0

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

OK, I think I have this fixed - you can download them again from the
usual site, msp.ucsd.edu.

I had made a serious and stupid mistake putting out the 64-bit release (The
32-bit one appears to have been OK).  The good news is that the previous
files actually were 0.53-0, i.e., the "about pd" panel at least wasn't lying.

I didn't update the filename.  To check which file you have you can look at its
size which I gave on the website.

cheers
Miller

On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 01:11:23AM -0300, Lucas Cordiviola wrote:
> Good catch!
> 
> I can confirm the I get "Pd version 0.53.0" on the downloads for "version
> 0.53-1" from Miller's site (on both arch versions i386 and amd64).
> 
> @ Miller please fix it.
> 
> 
> :)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
> 
> On 29/12/2022 09:58, Benjamin Wesch wrote:
> > Hi and first of all: thank you so much for this beautiful piece of
> > software! I hope I'm addressing this correctly here: Since around 3
> > years, I've always (happily) downloaded the newest Windows Pd versions
> > from http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.html ... the current version
> > irritated me a bit though since it doesn't seem to include all the
> > changes that I've been following on github.
> > 
> > I downloaded and checked the installer and the zipped version. When I
> > open "Help"->"About Pd" from the menu, it says "Pd version 0.53.0".
> > Since that might just be a missing manual edit, I checked for changes
> > in help files and .tcl files that should be present (sigmund~-help.pd
> > for example) and can confirm that these are also missing in the
> > installer and zip of Pd0.53-1. I then built the current release myself
> > from 
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/releases/tag/0.53-1__;!!Mih3wA!Gqf8nBzQ-hIcN9_qKlo09EjLHHYRsaKskjlk7uo7bdQuvnD10klNT5s2otHff8Hp_zzsbN2lcOjHv-UB$
> >   and
> > everything looks correct now (including "About Pd").
> > 
> > I hope I didn't do anything wrong on my side - but otherwise, I hope
> > this might help to get the downloads fixed. All the best! Ben
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] [leapmotion] version 0.2.0 on deken

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Nah.. it's just the command "xcodebuild -configuration Deployment -project 
pd~.xcodeproj/" (which has to be replaced) - after which I appear simply to
have copied the sources and help file into the built "mxo" bundle.

cheers
M

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 07:19:23PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> Ok, that explains a lack of separate tarball. Is the build script in the main 
> pd repo anywhere?
> 
> Also, if you buy used, get an M1 as a minimum. Don't buy an Intel CPU 
> otherwise you'll be revisiting this topic in a few years.
> 
> > On Dec 29, 2022, at 7:16 PM, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> > 
> > Sources are exactly the same as in extra/pd~ - needed files are
> > pd~.c and binarymsg.c .  I had these compiling with the 7.x Max SDK but
> > the 8.x one has dropped "xcodebuild" for cmake so the build and
> > release scripts have to be revisited.
> > 
> > Anyway I'm leaning toward buying a used macmini for decently cheap and
> > can get on this once that's done.
> > 
> > cheers
> > Miller
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] [leapmotion] version 0.2.0 on deken

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Sources are exactly the same as in extra/pd~ - needed files are
pd~.c and binarymsg.c .  I had these compiling with the 7.x Max SDK but
the 8.x one has dropped "xcodebuild" for cmake so the build and
release scripts have to be revisited.

Anyway I'm leaning toward buying a used macmini for decently cheap and
can get on this once that's done.

cheers
Miller

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 06:44:20PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> Is there a source code tarball for pd~ for Max? I'd be willing to build it if 
> installing the requisite SDKs is relatively easy. If the process can be 
> automated, we could consider using the build servers ala Pd vanilla.
> 
> > On Dec 29, 2022, at 4:52 PM, Dan Wilcox  wrote:
> > 
> > Ah, ok... the "pd~" object for Max... not its equivalent for pd. Now I 
> > understand why you need cmake which, in any case, is easily installable via 
> > homebrew. As for the Max SDK, I imagine it probably requires a more recent 
> > OS than 10.14 or 10.15, so you are best off with a Mac mini M1 or M2 at 
> > this point.
> > 
> >> On Dec 29, 2022, at 4:49 PM, Miller Puckette  >> > wrote:
> >> 
> >> Trying to compile and test it under Max - so that Max users can enjoy the
> >> powerful features of Pd at last :)
> >> 
> >> M
> >> 
> >> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 04:47:50PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> >>> Actually, isn't pd~ already compiled for arm64? What am I missing...?
> >>> 
> >>> % file /Applications/Pd-0.53-1.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pd~/pd~.d_fat
> >>> /Applications/Pd-0.53-1.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pd~/pd~.d_fat: 
> >>> Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures: [x86_64:Mach-O 64-bit 
> >>> bundle x86_64] [arm64:Mach-O 64-bit bundle arm64]
> >>> /Applications/Pd-0.53-1.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pd~/pd~.d_fat (for 
> >>> architecture x86_64): Mach-O 64-bit bundle x86_64
> >>> /Applications/Pd-0.53-1.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pd~/pd~.d_fat (for 
> >>> architecture arm64):  Mach-O 64-bit bundle arm64
> >>> 
> >>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 07:49:43PM +0100, IOhannes m zm?lnig wrote:
>  Am 28. Dezember 2022 16:20:08 MEZ schrieb "Jo?o Pais" 
>  mailto:jmmmp...@gmail.com> 
>  >>:
> > ah ah actually the wink was for Miller - pd~ doesn't work on M1 yet.
>  
>  Why not?
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Dan Wilcox
> >>> @danomatika 
> >>>  >>>  
> >>> 
> >>>  >
> >>> danomatika.com 
> >>>  >>>  > 
> >>>  >>>  
> >>> 
> >>>  >
> >>> robotcowboy.com 
> >>>  >>>  > 
> >>>  >>>  
> >>> 
> >>>  >
> > 
> > 
> > Dan Wilcox
> > @danomatika 
> >  >  >
> > danomatika.com 
> >  >  >
> > robotcowboy.com 
> >  >  >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] [leapmotion] version 0.2.0 on deken

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Trying to compile and test it under Max - so that Max users can enjoy the
powerful features of Pd at last :)

M

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 04:47:50PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> Actually, isn't pd~ already compiled for arm64? What am I missing...?
> 
> % file /Applications/Pd-0.53-1.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pd~/pd~.d_fat
> /Applications/Pd-0.53-1.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pd~/pd~.d_fat: Mach-O 
> universal binary with 2 architectures: [x86_64:Mach-O 64-bit bundle x86_64] 
> [arm64:Mach-O 64-bit bundle arm64]
> /Applications/Pd-0.53-1.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pd~/pd~.d_fat (for 
> architecture x86_64): Mach-O 64-bit bundle x86_64
> /Applications/Pd-0.53-1.app/Contents/Resources/extra/pd~/pd~.d_fat (for 
> architecture arm64):  Mach-O 64-bit bundle arm64
> 
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 07:49:43PM +0100, IOhannes m zm?lnig wrote:
> > Am 28. Dezember 2022 16:20:08 MEZ schrieb "Jo?o Pais"  > >:
> >> ah ah actually the wink was for Miller - pd~ doesn't work on M1 yet.
> > 
> > Why not?
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] [leapmotion] version 0.2.0 on deken

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I don't have a recent enough mac to compile for M1.  I'm almost ready to
hold my nose and buy one.  Mac SDK requires cmake which I don't think my
department has managed to get running on their machines yet.  UGH...

M

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 07:49:43PM +0100, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> Am 28. Dezember 2022 16:20:08 MEZ schrieb "João Pais" :
> >ah ah actually the wink was for Miller - pd~ doesn't work on M1 yet.
> 
> Why not?
> 
> 
> mfg.sfg.jfd
> IOhannes
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] [leapmotion] version 0.2.0 on deken

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I think Max users can use pd~ to run this.

cheers
Miller

On Sun, Dec 25, 2022 at 06:08:44PM -0500, William Brent wrote:
> Hey Joao,
> 
> Chikashi also has a mac build of [leapmotion] available here
>   >, but it seems to be using SDK 1.
> So at least this version allows us to use 2.3.1. That's as far as we can go
> on macOS unless Leap changes their stance on mac development. But I'm
> messing around some with the latest 5.7.2 SDK and I'm not having any
> trouble building/linking on both Linux and Windows. And on those platforms
> I'm able to connect to both the original Leap Motion Controller and the new
> Ultraleap hardware.
> 
> I'm not sure about the best way to consolidate everything that's been done
> in this area, especially since I decided to remove the FLEXT layer, which
> will be important for Max/MSP users. Myself, I'm only interested in
> building this for Pd and I want to keep things as simple as possible. And
> if I follow through working with SDK 5.7.2, we'll have access to the latest
> version of Leap software/hardware on all 3 platforms. I'm totally open to
> working and organizing together on this...whatever seems to be the best
> way. I think I'll have time to get the code up to a good stopping point
> over the holidays.
> 
> As for the gestures - do you mean adding a system for training/recognizing
> user-defined gestures beyond the existing circle/swipe/tap gestures? I'm
> interested in that idea for sure, but don't have the deep learning chops to
> pull it off yet.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2022 at 1:21 PM João Pais  wrote:
> 
> > Hi William,
> > nice that you made this also for mac. I'm thinking that since each version
> > of the object is in a different repository (I have the windows version, you
> > have mac, and Chikashi has linux), would it make sense to cross-reference
> > them? I guess putting them all together might be too much.
> >
> > I haven't used my leap too much, mostly because after some performances I
> > wanted to use more complex control such as gestures. But I couldn't program
> > anything myself, and didn't find any way of using e.g. machine learning or
> > similar for that. Is this some kind of work you also do? Could you
> > recommend any such libraries, even if not for Pd?
> >
> > Best,
> > Joao
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > After years of using Chikashi Miyama's [leapmotion] object, I decided to
> > fork his repo in order to make some changes and build against the most
> > recently available Leap SDK for macOS (2.3.1). Information about specific
> > changes can be found by visiting the repo:
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/wbrent/leapmotion__;!!Mih3wA!Haw4yo5G_N5jRUNIA9_p9jl43vxppxKYmzyb0cOH8fDT60JS_bGp2awgbPKBnG_tJAvFw6e-Sm3NTvTeC8Q$
> >  . I've also uploaded deken packages
> > for macOS/Intel and Linux.
> >
> > Note that this external is for the original Leap Motion Controller, and
> > not the current Ultraleap Controller. I may keep working on this in order
> > to use the latest Leap SDK (5.7.2) for Ultraleap compatibility under Linux
> > and Windows, but there seems to be no plan for supporting that device under
> > macOS, hence the freeze at SDK 2.3.1 for now...
> >
> > I hope it's helpful to someone out there!
> > William
> >
> >
> > --
> > William Brent
> >
> > “Great minds flock together”
> > Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century
> >
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.conflations.com__;!!Mih3wA!Haw4yo5G_N5jRUNIA9_p9jl43vxppxKYmzyb0cOH8fDT60JS_bGp2awgbPKBnG_tJAvFw6e-Sm3NGVm-xgo$
> >  
> >
> > ___
> > Pd-announce mailing 
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> >
> > --
> > Manteuffelstr. 19
> > 10997 Berlin (Deutschland)
> > Tel +49 30 74921288 | Mob +49 176 98476769jmmmp...@gmail.com | skype: 
> > jmmmpjmmmphttps://www.facebook.com/jmmmpais
> >
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> >  
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> William Brent
> 
> “Great minds flock together”
> Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century
> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.conflations.com__;!!Mih3wA!Haw4yo5G_N5jRUNIA9_p9jl43vxppxKYmzyb0cOH8fDT60JS_bGp2awgbPKBnG_tJAvFw6e-Sm3NGVm-xgo$
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Re: [PD] metro and dsp error interacting

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I've seen something slightly related, which is that if Pd is running without 
audio while a machine is in the "suspend" state, then when it wakes up it goes 
mad trying to catch up with all the elapsed time.  But other than that I've not 
seen Pd's non-audio timing fail the way yuo described.  Can you give a bit more 
detail as to what seems to bring the behavior on?

cheers

M

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 12:47:27PM +0100, Simon Iten wrote:
> hi,
> 
> i have pd 0.52 running on a raspberry 4 for an art installation.
> 
> i don't need audio, so initially i disabled the dsp. i noticed that
> occasionally a [metro 1000] that i loadbanged was banging constantly (very
> very fast). after i enabled the dsp, this does not happen anymore. however,
> as soon as i get an audio i/o error, the metro just stops outputting bangs.
> is this a known bug? if so, is there some way around it? or ist this a
> raspberry specific issue?

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Re: [PD] Pd freezing on Mac Ventura 13.0

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I don't have access to any ventura machines but would like to hear more about
this.  Looking down the portaudio github for the last year I don't see anything
about breakage on Ventura.

We can count on Apple though to break stuff on every OS release, harrumph.

Miller

On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 09:34:00AM -0500, Rick Snow wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Is anyone able to get PD 53.0 to work on Mac Ventura?  I have a student with 
> and PD 53 and 52 are freezing after a few minutes.  Changing the audio device 
> will cause it to freeze almost immediately.
> 
> Thanks!
> Rick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Pd 0.53-0test2 scrollers

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

OK, I think the scrollbar test is working now.  However, all the IEMGUIs
still make empty strings above themselves causing unnecessary scrollbars to
appear.  I think the fix should be either to not draw them at all (that
would be best?) or to put them back where they were in 0.52.

cheers
Miller

On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 06:53:13PM -0700, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> Aha it's that fucking VU meter - it's now drawing something that pokes way
> north of what's visible.
> 
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 06:50:02PM -0700, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > Oops, there's more than that.  I was wrong - the empty string is always
> > displayed in 0.52-2 or 0.53-0, but in 0.53-0 it was moved above the toggle
> > and since it has height but no width, the window thinks the toggle extends 
> > the
> > hight of a character higher than it does.  In 0.52-2 it's 2 pixels to the
> > right and having zero width it protrudes much less.
> > 
> > However, restoring a saved toggle from 0.52-2 gives the same old behavior,
> > so even though this is an annoyance (which perhaps we should change back?)
> > it's not the same problem you found.
> > 
> > M
> > On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 06:35:05PM -0700, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > > I'm getting the same problem on linux... and 0.52-2 is working correctly.
> > > 
> > > It looks like IEM GUIs are displaying empty strings above themselves by 
> > > default
> > > (you can see this by making a new toggle and moving it close to the top 
> > > of the
> > > window).  At some point I "fixed" this by suppressing displaying empty 
> > > labels -
> > > this must have been reintroduced.
> > > 
> > > I'm glad you spotted this one...
> > > 
> > > cheers
> > > M
> > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 01:11:59AM +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > > > Howdy all,
> > > > 
> > > > running the 0.53-test2 macOS build, I noticed that opening 
> > > > doc/7.stuff/tools/sizingtest.pd from the Help Browser opens the patch 
> > > > with the scrollbars showing, even though there should be enough 
> > > > whitespace around all borders.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Dan Wilcox
> > > > @danomatika 
> > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://twitter.com/danomatika__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6ScsB-_o$
> > > >   >
> > > > danomatika.com 
> > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com/__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6bPntpzo$
> > > >   >
> > > > robotcowboy.com 
> > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://robotcowboy.com/__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6zdAU_s8$
> > > >   >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ___
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> > 
> > 
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Re: [PD] Pd 0.53-0test2 scrollers

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Aha it's that fucking VU meter - it's now drawing something that pokes way
north of what's visible.

On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 06:50:02PM -0700, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> Oops, there's more than that.  I was wrong - the empty string is always
> displayed in 0.52-2 or 0.53-0, but in 0.53-0 it was moved above the toggle
> and since it has height but no width, the window thinks the toggle extends the
> hight of a character higher than it does.  In 0.52-2 it's 2 pixels to the
> right and having zero width it protrudes much less.
> 
> However, restoring a saved toggle from 0.52-2 gives the same old behavior,
> so even though this is an annoyance (which perhaps we should change back?)
> it's not the same problem you found.
> 
> M
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 06:35:05PM -0700, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > I'm getting the same problem on linux... and 0.52-2 is working correctly.
> > 
> > It looks like IEM GUIs are displaying empty strings above themselves by 
> > default
> > (you can see this by making a new toggle and moving it close to the top of 
> > the
> > window).  At some point I "fixed" this by suppressing displaying empty 
> > labels -
> > this must have been reintroduced.
> > 
> > I'm glad you spotted this one...
> > 
> > cheers
> > M
> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 01:11:59AM +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > > Howdy all,
> > > 
> > > running the 0.53-test2 macOS build, I noticed that opening 
> > > doc/7.stuff/tools/sizingtest.pd from the Help Browser opens the patch 
> > > with the scrollbars showing, even though there should be enough 
> > > whitespace around all borders.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dan Wilcox
> > > @danomatika 
> > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://twitter.com/danomatika__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6ScsB-_o$
> > >   >
> > > danomatika.com 
> > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com/__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6bPntpzo$
> > >   >
> > > robotcowboy.com 
> > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://robotcowboy.com/__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6zdAU_s8$
> > >   >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Pd 0.53-0test2 scrollers

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Oops, there's more than that.  I was wrong - the empty string is always
displayed in 0.52-2 or 0.53-0, but in 0.53-0 it was moved above the toggle
and since it has height but no width, the window thinks the toggle extends the
hight of a character higher than it does.  In 0.52-2 it's 2 pixels to the
right and having zero width it protrudes much less.

However, restoring a saved toggle from 0.52-2 gives the same old behavior,
so even though this is an annoyance (which perhaps we should change back?)
it's not the same problem you found.

M
On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 06:35:05PM -0700, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> I'm getting the same problem on linux... and 0.52-2 is working correctly.
> 
> It looks like IEM GUIs are displaying empty strings above themselves by 
> default
> (you can see this by making a new toggle and moving it close to the top of the
> window).  At some point I "fixed" this by suppressing displaying empty labels 
> -
> this must have been reintroduced.
> 
> I'm glad you spotted this one...
> 
> cheers
> M
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 01:11:59AM +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > Howdy all,
> > 
> > running the 0.53-test2 macOS build, I noticed that opening 
> > doc/7.stuff/tools/sizingtest.pd from the Help Browser opens the patch with 
> > the scrollbars showing, even though there should be enough whitespace 
> > around all borders.
> > 
> > 
> > Dan Wilcox
> > @danomatika 
> > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://twitter.com/danomatika__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6ScsB-_o$
> >   >
> > danomatika.com 
> > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://danomatika.com/__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6bPntpzo$
> >   >
> > robotcowboy.com 
> > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://robotcowboy.com/__;!!Mih3wA!BtaKlVSGsZf-A4KY3bRTCCILzVHFlc2-HpOh_xLLzsI6fObSqkou1ZGF_3p6-4ShIcjsoEP6zdAU_s8$
> >   >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Pd 0.53-0test2 scrollers

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I'm getting the same problem on linux... and 0.52-2 is working correctly.

It looks like IEM GUIs are displaying empty strings above themselves by default
(you can see this by making a new toggle and moving it close to the top of the
window).  At some point I "fixed" this by suppressing displaying empty labels -
this must have been reintroduced.

I'm glad you spotted this one...

cheers
M
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 01:11:59AM +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> Howdy all,
> 
> running the 0.53-test2 macOS build, I noticed that opening 
> doc/7.stuff/tools/sizingtest.pd from the Help Browser opens the patch with 
> the scrollbars showing, even though there should be enough whitespace around 
> all borders.
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>    >
> danomatika.com 
>    >
> robotcowboy.com 
>    >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] pd 0.53-0test2 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Aha... so the real problem is that I can't seem to push the tag I added
locally to the head up to github.  It looks like I have to tag the commit
before pushing, because tagging afterward fools git into thinking everything
is already pushed.  Live and learn...

M
On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 08:04:06PM +0200, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> Am 23. Oktober 2022 19:49:10 MESZ schrieb Claude Heiland-Allen 
> :
> >
> >On 23/10/2022 15:27, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> >> On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 04:45:00PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> >>> all good, but mac binary comes out as "Pd-0.53-0test1-80-g20334410"
> >>> 
> >
> >I think this is probably related to "git describe" getting into the version 
> >string somehow.
> 
> Exactly.
> This is how the version string is generated for the dmg (and other artifacts 
> created by the CI)
> 
> 
> mfg.sfg.jfd
> IOhannes
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] pd 0.53-0test2 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

No luck ("bad superblock" style messages for both hfs and hfsplus).
I'm not sure how much longer I should spend trying to fix this - I'll
be able to get on a Mac Tuesday.

thanks
M

On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 05:23:14PM +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> You can mount a dmg (disk image). Something like:
> 
> sudo mount -t hfs -o loop Pd-1.2.3.dmg /media/pd-dmg
> 
> If that doesn't work, then try hfsplus
> 
> > On Oct 23, 2022, at 5:05 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> > 
> > (I don't have a mac
> > handy and have no idea how to open a "dmg" on my linux box :)
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>    >
> danomatika.com 
>    >
> robotcowboy.com 
>    >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] pd 0.53-0test2 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hi Alexandre -

This sounds a bit mysterious and might be a problem or might not...
could you (or anyone) download this one:

http://msp.ucsd.edu/tmp/pd-macos-5c4f7554.zip

... and see what the app is named when you unpack it?  (I don't have a mac
handy and have no idea how to open a "dmg" on my linux box :)

thanks
M
On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 04:45:00PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> all good, but mac binary comes out as "Pd-0.53-0test1-80-g20334410"
> 
> Em sáb., 22 de out. de 2022 às 15:11, Miller Puckette via Pd-announce <
> pd-annou...@lists.iem.at> escreveu:
> 
> > To Pd-announce:
> >
> > Pd version 0.53-0test2 is available from http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm
> > or (source only) via github: 
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data__;!!Mih3wA!EiLyeBaOAXyr8pr6xa6UHQZCFWFVESrMXTUnLkFCwqOwecYUWYBLAwH9LqxjG4dXd7xdgNLEDA$
> >   
> >
> > This contains more bug fixes and documentation updates.
> >
> > Iohannes is still working on an update to teh string translation
> > mechanism; I'm planning to incorporate that into the final release,
> > hopefully early next week.
> >
> > cheers
> > Miller
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Pd-announce mailing list
> > pd-annou...@lists.iem.at
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-announce__;!!Mih3wA!EiLyeBaOAXyr8pr6xa6UHQZCFWFVESrMXTUnLkFCwqOwecYUWYBLAwH9LqxjG4dXd7zG_xSwig$
> >   
> >
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> >   
> >



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] pd 0.53-0test1 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Right, that's part of the IEMGUI rewrite... I stuck a quick reference to it in 
the release notes
(but missed getting it in "test2").

I think it's an improvement...
cheers
M
On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 06:23:29PM +0200, Giulio Moro wrote:
> I am sorry if this conversation has taken place before and I missed it, but 
> is it expected that the default parameters (size etc) for most (all?) iemguis 
> has changed with 0.53 compared to 0.52 (and possibly all previous versions)?
> E.g.:
> hsl
>  width: 128->162
>  height: 15->19
>  label font size: 10->12
>  y-offset: -8->-10
> tgl:
>  Size: 15->9
>  label font size: 10->12
>  X-offset: 17->0
>  Y-offset: 7->-10
> 
> I am asking because it's quite a big change in look and this was meant to be 
> a minor release ... and it's not mentioned in the changelog
> 
> Thanks,
> Giulio
> 
> 
> Alexandre Torres Porres wrote on 16/10/2022 22:49:
> > Em dom., 16 de out. de 2022 às 16:34, Miller Puckette via Pd-announce 
> > mailto:pd-annou...@lists.iem.at>> escreveu:
> > 
> > To Pd-announce:
> > 
> > Pd version 0.53-0test1 is available from 
> > http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm
> > or (source only) via github: 
> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data__;!!Mih3wA!CmMk71zjht6QfgX6PR2euQcMXUh--N6-xAOaqCMwNBm5X3j1_8NR6cvw-S0ZaParCVfFatUcPQfSufPRmw$
> > 
> > This is a test version that mostly just fixes bugs in version 0.52, 
> > including
> > one serious problem reading soundfiles.
> > 
> > 
> > Great, I imagine the actual final version should come quite soon.
> > 
> > I'll have a look to see if I can add a couple more documentation updates, I 
> > just found a typo in the [nbx] help file. I can also suggest more details 
> > to the release notes in the manual. We can mention the new deken version, 
> > and I can say there is at least one new feature, which is the unification 
> > of vertical and horizontal sliders and radio buttons, which can now have 
> > their orientation changed via the 'orientation' message. Maybe we can add 
> > that (I'll send a commit as a suggestion soon).
> > 
> > 
> > cheers
> > Miller
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > pd-annou...@lists.iem.at 
> > 
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> > 
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Re: [PD] Alternative for array to show curves?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hi Ingo and all -

This reminds me of a problem I had 15 or 20 years ago, in which the (ASCII)
communications between Pd and the GUI would sometimes choke under heavy
volumes - perhaps because teh GUI wasn't reading stuff as fast as Od was
trying to spit it out.

This would be dependent on the relative timing of the Pd and GUI processes,
which could easily be quite different on Pi than on Intel machines.

If you're willing to zip it up into an archive i can test, I'd be happy to give
it a try on my own Pi and see if I can get the same thing to happen.

cheers
Miller

On Sun, Oct 09, 2022 at 10:16:40AM +0200, Ingo wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> 
> I'm having trouble on the Raspberry Pi 4  with showing arrays reliably with
> Pd 0.51 and Raspbian OS.
> 
>  
> 
> I must say that the patch is a graphical synth editor with over 500
> parameters. So it's quite large which could be part of the problem.
> 
> It takes 5-8 seconds on the Pi to open it.
> 
> I tried setting the Pi's graphics memory from the default of 64 MB to 256 MB
> but this did not change anything, though!
> 
>  
> 
> When opening the editor patch all graphics - like number boxes, etc. - might
> or might not work for the first time.
> 
> When reopening it one or several times most standard graphical objects like
> number boxes, faders, radio buttons etc. stop to updates their graphics.
> 
> So do the arrays!
> 
> After they are disabled once they are guaranteed to not work anymore until I
> restart.
> 
>  
> 
> I have already spent countless hours in replacing number boxes and faders
> with using canvases on top of the number boxes and faders.
> 
> Instead of radio buttons I use dropdown menus.
> 
>  
> 
> The number boxes and faders do actally work and send values but do not
> update their graphics.
> 
> So I'm sending their output to a canvas on top of the number box for
> displaying their values now - which actually looks better!
> 
> All graphics are working now like this on the Raspberry Pi - with the
> exception of the still missing arrays that I need for showing MIDI CC
> curves.
> 
>  
> 
> Let me add that I had never any issues like that on Intel or AMD processors
> over the last 10 years.
> 
> It only happens on the Paspberry Pi.
> 
> The same software always runs flawlessly on these other systems updating all
> graphics normally as they should.
> 
>  
> 
> ___
> 
> What I'm looking for now as my last problem solver is an external that will
> be able to show simple curves.
> 
> Is there anything that is not based on TCL/TK?
> 
> (I'm suspecting TCL/TK to treat all of these objects like being unvisable in
> the background and disabling their graphics - but I'm not sure.)
> 
>  
> 
> Or would there possibly be a way to send curves instead of just text to a
> canvas?
> 
>  
> 
> Alternatively a way to reenable the graphical update would work as well.
> 
>  
> 
> Data structures might be an option. Can someone point me to tutorials for
> data structers?
> 
>  
> 
> I know that I still have the option to make a namber of gifs that could be
> recalled with [image] but that's my last resort for now.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks for any suggestion!
> 
> Ingo
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 

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[PD] [OT} faculty job at UCSD, deadline Nov. 1

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

To Pd list -

UCSD is hiring an assistant professor starting next fall.  First application 
deadline is this Nov. 1.  Job announcement is here: 
https://apol-recruit.ucsd.edu/JPF03295

Quoting from the ad:

...broad expertise in computer and electronic music. Possible areas of research 
specialization may include: sound synthesis and processing, interaction and 
sound design, game sound, machine learning, virtual and augmented reality as 
applied to music and sound.

cheers
Miller



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Re: [PD] Using Teensy as midi compliant device

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

MIDI messages only go out to one device - so to send to
device 2 you send to MIDI "channel" 17 to 32.  In this
case, probably 18 (channel 2 on device number 2).

cheers
Miller


On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 05:28:04PM -0500, Rick Snow wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> I am working to use two Teensy devices as midi compliant devices to control a 
> set of motors with PD.  I have each one working as expected.  One Teensy 
> expects midi info on Channel 1 and the other on Channel 2.  Each Teensy 
> Device is given its own name.  When I try to use them both at the same time 
> (plug in both to my Mac) I can see both of them in the Midi Devices.  
> However, only the first one I choose will accept midi values and move the 
> motors.  Whichever one I choose second will not react when I send it midi 
> data.
> 
> Anyone else worked with multiple Teensy Midi devices and PD?
> 
> Cheers,
> Rick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] why units per pixel: -1 by default on subpatches?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Because when just making a patch the origin is conventionally top left,
not bottom left.  So pixels count downward, and if you want "y" to increase
as you go up, that's the opposite dorection.

Just install a mirror on your desktop and look at your screen downward
through it, and you'll see 'y' increase upward when 'scale' is set to 1 :)

M

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 10:34:37PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> Hi, I believe this must have been discussed before... it's surely known. I
> wonder why when you add a subpatch the 'scale' section has an inverted "-1"
> scale for the vertical axis. This is particularly bad for display data
> structures and needs to be corrected by hand.
> 
> Should I open a request to change this default parameter?
> 
> cheers

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Re: [PD] consistency check failed: drawline

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Interesting - that's a bit of code nobody's touched for at least 15 years.

The next thing I'd do would be to try to run the project under a memory-
integrity-checking system (I use valgrind in linux to do this).

If you'd be willing to send me the project (or even better if you can reduce
the size of the patch without losing the symptom) I'd be happy to try that.

My guess is the trouble is coming from something far removed from the line
of code that's printing the message...

thanks
Miller

On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 10:25:16AM -0500, José Rafael Subía Valdez wrote:
> Hello List
> 
> I just downloaded and installed the latest Pd 0.52-2. But if I open a
> project of mine and close it I get the message (messages come up when I
> cles the patch)
> "consistency check failed: drawline"
> 
> the patch opened and closed with no problem in previous versions of Pd, I
> had no error warning like this.
> 
> So my question is, what can be causing this? How can I narrow this down?
> where should I start looking whats going on?
> 
> thanks
> 
> 
> -- 
> José Rafael Subía Valdez
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jrsv.net&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=Yp_pekhbODAJ7EN5gKYOMNC9K0J5rl14KSypMc7FNoSC6XdfVygTHutmuRUzdhEk&s=ZYHMvzU6vn09d7OHAVlsFE-xcKs5TvFf_pG3FFyUtJ0&e=
>  
> 
> 
> *"...I am an Anarchist! Wherefore I will*
> *Not rule, and also ruled I will not be!"*
> 
> - John Henry Mackay -

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Re: [PD] Pd 0.52-1 - frozen dsp and gui in ubuntu 20.04

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I think the bug report isn't needed, thanks.

Meanwhile, yes, it would be appropriate to print a message that the delay
got reset, and yes, please do throw it in the develop PR.

thanks
M

On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:43:08PM -0300, Bruno Rohde wrote:
> As it looks like you guys are working on a quick and simple solution, I'll
> wait a bit to see if it's really necessary to file a bug. If it's still
> relevant, I can do it later.
> 
> Em ter., 22 de mar. de 2022 às 12:33, Christof Ressi 
> escreveu:
> 
> > > Of course, now the displayed settings doesn't always reflect the setting
> > used internally.
> > We could post a little notice that the delay setting has been capped.
> > Probably also for the ASIO backend. But that's just cosmetics.
> >
> > @umlaeute: should I push the quick fix below to develop?
> >
> > Christof
> >
> > On 22.03.2022 16:26, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2022-03-22 at 16:00 +0100, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I think the solution is simple:
> > >>
> > >> In jack_open_audio() replace
> > >>
> > >> if (advance_samples < DEFDACBLKSIZE)
> > >>  advance_samples = DEFDACBLKSIZE;
> > >> with
> > >>
> > >> if (advance_samples < jack_blocksize)
> > >>  advance_samples = jack_blocksize;
> > >> @Roman: can you give this a try?
> > > Yeah, it works. Now - without callbacks - it works with any setting for
> > > 'delay (ms)'. Of course, now the displayed settings doesn't always
> > > reflect the setting used internally.
> > >
> > > Roman
> > >
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruno Faria Rohde

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Re: [PD] delwrite~ delread4~ name of delay line not settable?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

You can use tabsend~ and tabreceive~ (with the same name) - whatever you
put into tabsend~ wil come out of the tabreceive~ in the next cloned
instance.

all best,
Miller
On Mon, Mar 14, 2022 at 10:40:23AM +0100, Max wrote:
> vd~ is just an alias for delread4~. I don't see a set message for them in
> the source.
> 
> 
> On 14.03.22 06:59, Johnny Mauser wrote:
> > If i remember correct, i used [vd~] for such a case!?
> > 
> > Max mailto:abonneme...@revolwear.com>>
> > schrieb am So., 13. März 2022, 23:25:
> > 
> > Is the name of the delay line written to and read from in delwrite~ and
> > delread4~ settable by messages?
> > If not, is it intentional or could this feature be added?
> > I want to send from one clone(d) instance to the next via delay lines,
> > so I need to change the names.
> > 
> > M.
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> >  
> >  > >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Different [random] behaviour between macOS & linux?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Each time a [random] is created it gets a new (pseudo-random) seed - so if
you want total repeatability you should exit and restart Pd.  Then you should
see exactly the same behavior on linux and on Mac.

cheers
Miller

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 12:04:15PM +0100, Yann Seznec wrote:
> Hi! Here's thing I’m confused about…if I use [random] to generate some 
> numbers on startup, it appears to have different behaviour on macOS and on 
> linux (running on a raspberry pi). 
> 
> With a very simple patch generate a stream of random numbers using [random] 
> (with no seed) and printing to console, on macOS it will create a different 
> random set every time I launch the patch. On linux, it will generate the same 
> set of numbers each time the patch is launched. It feels to me like the 
> [random] object on linux is using the same seed each time, whereas on macOS 
> it is either using a new seed each time or just not using a seed at all (if 
> that’s possible, I’m clearly no random number specialist). 
> 
> Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks!
> Yann
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] what's the 3rd value of bonk~'s cooked output?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

It's teh 'center of gravity' of the bonk spectrum, that is, the centroid
of the spectrum considered as a distribution.  It's intended to be a
sort of 'spectral centroid' along the lines of David Wessel's old idea,
but measuring the centroid in 'bonk's might correlate bette with perceived
brilliance.  The word 'temperature' is intended as an analog to
'color temperature' which I believe is a corresponding concept for
optical spectra.

cheers
Miller

On Sat, Feb 26, 2022 at 01:33:20PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> Hi, there's a third value output in the 'cooked' list that the
> documentation doesn't explain, but the code refers to as 'temperature'.
> Does anybody know what it is? Miller? :)
> 
> Opened an issue for it => 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata_issues_1578&d=DwIBaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=FOCEpZf64xKPoFcLfIUhrUYIC6pSjp-MRlntzZkj4AcccVItkZOUfYOgkvvC3d0a&s=36nRHRaosPJ4hgYaiYsFq4o3tSlYp3lcUMeGTyQxNDc&e=
>  
> 
> btw, this is me revising and going over the whole documentation of Pd and
> writing quick references. Almost done!
> 
> cheers



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Re: [PD] different float accuracy betw. Pd-0.52-1-msw-i386 and Pd-0.52-1-msw-amd64

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Just to ad tothe confusion ... I'm running tests ("reality check") to see
of Pd runs musical pieces the same way on diffrent machines.  I found that
AMD64 Pd on linux and on MacOS (both 64-bit Intel CPUs) gave slightly
different results, off by less thatn a part in a million (10^-6 error).
But.. the MacOS test gave the identical same result as a Raspberry Pi, which
is in 32 bits and has an ARM processor.

I _think_ linux and MACOS are setting different rounding modes in the
processor, but haven't takent the time to try to figure it out.

cheers
Miller

On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 11:25:26PM +0100, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > However, what worries me is that if I run a Pd vanilla patch on
> > different Pd versions (i386 or amd64) with the same floating point
> > precision, I expect the same results.
> Generally, you can't really expect that. Even without -ffast-math, different
> CPU architectures or instruction sets will give slightly different results
> (unless you jump through various hoops).
> 
> Here's an interesting article by a game developer: 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__gafferongames.com_post_floating-5Fpoint-5Fdeterminism_&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=APlmOH6-SnFCR7Jvr5B5Sup5Bjb4le7rctP34Mrr9Y-4wQA2jiIang6E8-_797z3&s=uDkC4rfduQLn3ViZe_SQnSi3i6yQHuLVgwGP64klfN4&e=
> 
> Usually, these errors are very small, but with (suboptimal) recursive
> algorithms they can get amplified significantly. Your patch is a very
> striking demonstration of the problems with the direct 2 form of the biquad
> filter :-)
> 
> Christof
> 
> On 11.02.2022 23:11, mu...@iem.at wrote:
> > 
> > Zitat von Christof Ressi :
> > 
> > > That's only half the story. Generally, one shouldn't expect floating
> > > point computations to yield the exact same result with different
> > > compilers/machines. The rounding errors themselves are very small,
> > > but they can accumulate over long periods of time or get amplified
> > > by recursive algorithms.
> > > I've made an alternative implementation [biquad2~] that uses direct
> > > form 1. It shows significantly less noise than the [biquad~]
> > > examples. See attachments.
> > 
> > That's right what you wrote.
> > However, what worries me is that if I run a Pd vanilla patch on
> > different Pd versions (i386 or amd64) with the same floating point
> > precision, I expect the same results.
> > 
> > e.g. the test patch running on Pd-0.52-1-xxx-i386 produces -60dB low
> > frequency spikes, the identical patch running on Pd-0.52-1-xxx-amd64
> > produces -34dB high frequency bursts. And that's a realistic simple
> > situation, a microphone signal feeds a 3rd order high pass filter.
> > 
> > Thomas Musil
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: [PD] KDE: how to change window color, too dark...

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hi Rafael -

I don't know why the colors aren't the standard (black and white) that are 
baked into
the Pd code.  Pd should be ignoring the theme setting on your desktop.

Just for a test, can you see if the colors change when you change your theme?

cheers
Miller

On Tue, Feb 01, 2022 at 09:50:42PM +0100, rafael.racc...@blindekinder.com wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm on KDE, the main theme is Breeze. Most apps are ok, but PD is too dark,
> with few contrast (black on dark grey), and I cant know if checkboxes are
> checked or not (light grey on white).
> I use PD 0.50.
> 
> How can I change the colors?
> 
> thank you!
> 
> rph-r

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Re: [PD] [sfinfo~]

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Yep, I can think of other reasons you'd want to know the size of a soundfile
in a Pd patch without having to read the whole thing in.

cheers
M

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 07:32:02PM +, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> > I forgot is even simpler (no need for an array)
> 
> Oh la la this is embarrassing. I didn’t know one could not supply an array… 
> but that way I don’t get the size of the file in frames.
> 
> > Are you doing stuff that "soundfiler" doesn't?  If so, it would be better 
> > to add to the soundfiler object than to add a new object with its own name.
> 
> 
> Indeed Miller I’ll do a PR to add it at the end then. I get everything else 
> with soundfiler
> 
> For info, I need the size of the sum of my sound files in frames and in 
> channels to allocate the right size once. I do that in Max and SC doing 2 
> passes, once to read the headers and accumulate what I need in both 
> dimensions (and capture the SR at the same time) then I assign then I read 
> and copy. For large corpora, this is useful.
> 
> So the proposal is not so big and bold as my first email… but still a needed 
> feature.



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Re: [PD] [sfinfo~]

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Excellent - nothing to do then.  My favorite kind of dolist.

cheers
M

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 07:37:04PM +, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> Wait - this is embarrassing, it seems that the left outlet still spits out 
> the number of samples when there are no destination arrays so I should be 
> golden…
> 
> I probably need a weekend. Sorry for the Friday night noise.
> 
> > On 28 Jan 2022, at 19:35, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> > 
> > Yep, I can think of other reasons you'd want to know the size of a soundfile
> > in a Pd patch without having to read the whole thing in.
> > 
> > cheers
> > M
> > 
> > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 07:32:02PM +, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> >>> I forgot is even simpler (no need for an array)
> >> 
> >> Oh la la this is embarrassing. I didn’t know one could not supply an 
> >> array… but that way I don’t get the size of the file in frames.
> >> 
> >>> Are you doing stuff that "soundfiler" doesn't?  If so, it would be better 
> >>> to add to the soundfiler object than to add a new object with its own 
> >>> name.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Indeed Miller I’ll do a PR to add it at the end then. I get everything 
> >> else with soundfiler
> >> 
> >> For info, I need the size of the sum of my sound files in frames and in 
> >> channels to allocate the right size once. I do that in Max and SC doing 2 
> >> passes, once to read the headers and accumulate what I need in both 
> >> dimensions (and capture the SR at the same time) then I assign then I read 
> >> and copy. For large corpora, this is useful.
> >> 
> >> So the proposal is not so big and bold as my first email… but still a 
> >> needed feature.
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: [PD] [sfinfo~]

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hi PA -

Are you doing stuff that "soundfiler" doesn't?  If so, it would be better
to add to the soundfiler object than to add a new object with its own name.

cheers
Miller

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 06:17:21PM +, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> Hello again
> 
> So I was missing an object that is quite useful when dealing with audio files 
> in batches. Attached is the ugly file in progress to read (with [file]) the 
> header of audio files and demingle it to get the number of channels and 
> number of frames and sampling rate… what the Max object [sfinfo~] does.
> 
> Now I notices that the pd API offers me the headers to recode it in C - so I 
> have 2 options here
> 
> - I don’t bother anyone and I coder it as fluid.sfinfo
> - I code it as [sfinfo~] and make a PR and pray that the dev gods pick on it 
> and in the meantime I just include my PR version.
> 
> I looked in decken and couldn’t find that string (soundfile, sound file, etc) 
> so I’m pretty sure it is not there.
> 
> In all cases this is a very useful object to have. I offer my pd attempt in 
> sacrifice to the people who want to have a laugh. It kind of works… but that 
> ‘extended’ format (80 bit float anyone?) is a pain to detangle :)
> 





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Re: [PD] pd 0.52-0 test 4 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

OK... I've put a link to Dan's version on my download page and will leave it
until the CI build is merrily building for ARM .

cheers
M

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 05:56:40PM +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 1/24/22 17:18, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > There was an issue with building Tk Wish 8.6.12 as a universal build which 
> > stopped this for now.
> 
> no.
> this is not really true, and more importantly i think it spreads confusion.
> 
> the truth (according to john) is:
> - for newer macOS versions, miller uses binaries produced by the iem-ci
> - the iem-ci currently does not build arm64 binaries
>   - simply because the XCode version installed there is too old
> - this means that Pd-core (on the downloads) is only x86_64
> - the iem-ci does not build Tcl/Tk *at all*
>   - instead it uses a pre-built binary (similar to the one found in
> mac/stuff.tgz)
>   - this pre-built blob is Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 and it is a universal build for
> arm64 and x86_64
> 
> 
> this raises the following questions:
> Q1: why is the iem-ci not updated to a newer XCode that allows to build
> arm64 binaries for macOS?
> A1: because I haven't found the time yet to do so
> 
> Q2: why isn't Tcl/Tk build along with Pd
> A2: because I don't want our CI to spend time compiling a helper library
> that we is not actively developed by *us*
> 
> 
> because of the situation with the externals, i do not consider the current
> situation extremely bad.
> 
> 
> gfdmst
> IOhannes




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Re: [PD] JACK and blocksize

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

You can use camomile (github.com/pierreguillot/Camomile) to wrap Pd
inside a VST for 64-sample latency back and forth.

cheers
Miller

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 05:38:34PM +0100, oliver wrote:
> > 
> > As for the need for it, I would personally use it, I tuned my linux
> > system to run at 16 samples but I cannot use such settings when I want
> > to run Pd (I can with Bitwig and Bespoke synth).
> 
> Sorry , a little off topic ...
> 
> how exactly did you achieve that ? could you provide some specs ?
> (linux distro, kernel, tweaks, JACK or ALSA, soundcard)
> 
> i never succeeded in getting any reasonable latency out of BITWIG (the
> "real" latency of let's say a pushed midi trigger and the soundfile in a
> slot being started was always much bigger than stated), so i ditched it in
> the end.
> 
> BESPOKE looks awesome, will dig into it ...
> 
> FWIW, i find REAPER a great program to team up with PD (via OSC
> communication), though i'm still not at the desired latency i'm looking for
> (any "real" latency less than 10ms would be fine with me)
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for any hints
> 
> best
> 
> oliver
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] [file]: paths not relative to patch

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

The confusion is my fault... "." never really meant current working directory,
it just means "THIS directory here".  I.E., it could mean any #$^#$ thing at
all :)

M

On Sat, Jan 08, 2022 at 10:42:35AM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> I agree with Roman's point that "current working directory" as an idea is 
> different, depending on the user. For some, it will be relative to the patch, 
> for others it will be relative to the shell (and the resulting programs 
> launched by it). I agree it makes technical sense that [file] would be 
> relative to the Pd process, knowing the C api behind it, but for many it's a 
> bit of friction for sure since it's something that now works different from 
> other objects which handle paths implicitly. Additionally, I think it's 
> perhaps a stretch to assume most beginners are aware of how shells and paths 
> work.
> 
> If it were up to me, I would make [file] work like the other objects and 
> treat relative paths as relative to the canvas. OTOH I know this could 
> complicate the implementation. I think at the very least, this difference 
> needs to be well documented with the requisite canvas-oriented approaches 
> documented. Forgive me if they are already as I've not used [file] yet, but 
> Roman's question indicates to me perhaps not everything is covered yet. ;)
> 
> Another approach is to provide a very explicit option to get the patch canvas 
> location which fits into the api ala [file patchdir] or [file canvasdir]. I 
> know this is probably redundant to [pdcontrol] but perhaps helps with the 
> distinction..?
> 
> > On Jan 8, 2022, at 1:07 AM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> > 
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 01:07:48 +0100
> > From: Christof Ressi  > >
> > To: Pd-List mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>>
> > Subject: Re: [PD] [file]: paths not relative to patch
> > Message-ID: <0d33e805-37ff-4988-d50e-29eb3d86d...@christofressi.com 
> > >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> > 
> >> If I pass a relative path to such an utility, I want it to resolve to 
> >> the current working directy and *not* to the Pd patch itself. 
> > In practice, I almost wrap such utilities in a shell script anyway and 
> > there I would turn relative path arguments into absolute paths before 
> > passing them on to Pd. But I just wanted to show that the current 
> > directory is not completely useless.
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [PD] pd 0.52-0 test 4 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Iohannes's builds are compiled for both IA64 and arm64.  Incidentally, i heard
from one informal tester that the arm64 version runs way faster in an M1 machine
than the older ia64-only builds.  No surprise there, but nice to hear.

cheers
M

On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 05:38:47PM +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> 
> On 12/16/21 15:28, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> > 
> > First, replying to emails from pd-announce sends to 'pd-l...@iem.at' and
> > not 'pd-list@lists.iem.at', which results in undeliverable messages that
> > return back.
> 
> thanks for finding the long lost reference to the old and outdated address.
> it's now fixed.
> 
> > Questions: - Will we provide downloads for M1 macs?
> 
> most likely not.
> 
> gfmasdr
> IOhannes




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Re: [PD] JACK on macOS

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Excellent.. I think it's time for test4 :)

M

On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 09:22:51AM -0500, William Brent wrote:
> For me, IOhannes' latest build (
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__git.iem.at_pd_pure-2Ddata_-2D_jobs_33818_artifacts_file_Pd-2D0.52-2D0test3-2D2-2Dg6ca9539f.dmg&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=fl57PEVI5mP734J4WxD5hjIoB0msU2LZPA4FnonAJwj9UJC2JkEeznls80b9dxEW&s=xLhzmvDU_SibT-v7sYsFHVf1EgZxJdWAd-7ShahCSpM&e=
>  )
> and Dan's recent build (
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__docs.danomatika.com_pdbuilds_0.52_Pd-2D0.52-2D0test3-2Dx86-5F64-2Djack.zip&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=fl57PEVI5mP734J4WxD5hjIoB0msU2LZPA4FnonAJwj9UJC2JkEeznls80b9dxEW&s=Uyotyn_b1MYhN70Wdi9BUjs27lIlb4AL2H-lJjuVi4E&e=
>  )
> work on Big Sur 11.6.1 *without* callbacks enabled. I've done a lot of work
> with Pd/JACK and have never enabled callbacks.
> 
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 9:01 AM Christof Ressi 
> wrote:
> 
> > this must be a bug then... I don't see why Jack should only work with
> > "callbacks" enabled.
> > On 14.12.2021 14:51, Csaba Láng wrote:
> >
> > I confirm Jack works on Big Sur with using callback in the audio settings.
> >
> > Thanks for the hint.
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 2:16 PM William Brent 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Good news - this new build is indeed working for me with JACK 1.9.19 on
> >> Big Sur 11.6.1 (Intel 64bit hardware). I'll update my comment on the ticket
> >> to document it. Thanks IOhannes!
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 14, 2021 at 4:37 AM IOhannes m zmoelnig 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On 12/13/21 22:06, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> >>>  >
> >>>  >
> >>>  > once it finished building, the dmg will be available on
> >>> <
> >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__git.iem.at_pd_pure-2Ddata_-2D_jobs_33818_artifacts_file_Pd-2D0.52-2D0test3-2D2-2Dg6ca9539f.dmg&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=fl57PEVI5mP734J4WxD5hjIoB0msU2LZPA4FnonAJwj9UJC2JkEeznls80b9dxEW&s=xLhzmvDU_SibT-v7sYsFHVf1EgZxJdWAd-7ShahCSpM&e=
> >>>  >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  >
> >>>  > could you please be so kind and test with that version as well?
> >>>
> >>> my first tests show that this version indeed works (at least on
> >>> Catalina).
> >>> could someone on Big Sur or Monterey confirm this?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> gfsdr
> >>> IOhannes
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> PS: here's a bit more in-depth tech babble, for those interested what (I
> >>> think) is going on:
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > this info in the issue was incredibly helpful:
> >>> >  > JACK protocol mismatch 8
> >>> >
> >>> > afaict it tries to tell us that Pd and jackd speak different (and
> >>> > obviously incompatible) protocols.
> >>> >
> >>> > i'm currently trying to create a new binary on our CI that finally
> >>> uses
> >>> > the pre-built binaries from jackaudio.org (as dan always suggested).
> >>> >
> >>> > hopefully this will get the protocol version right.
> >>>
> >>> i now think that this was a red hering.
> >>>
> >>> the problem really seems to be that depending on whether Pd is linked
> >>> against  JACK from homebrew or jackaudio.org it will look for the
> >>> library in /usr/local/opt/jack/lib/ resp. /usr/local/lib/.
> >>> for reasons i do not fully understand yet, a homebrew-jacked Pd (that
> >>> looks for libjack.so.0.1.0 in /usr/local/opt/jack/lib/) will refuse to
> >>> load the library if it is found in /usr/local/lib/ (even though this is
> >>> a standard search path for libraries).
> >>> copying/symlinking the libjack.so to the searched for directory, makes
> >>> binaries work.
> >>>
> >>> $ mkdir /usr/local/opt/jack/lib/
> >>> $ ln -s /usr/local/lib/libjack.0.1.0.dylib /usr/local/opt/jack/lib/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> of course this is not really practical
> >>> ___
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> >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.puredata.info_listinfo_pd-2Dlist&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=fl57PEVI5mP734J4WxD5hjIoB0msU2LZPA4FnonAJwj9UJC2JkEeznls80b9dxEW&s=DrGULzLRfcWcjPbwZbRgkz0ql8tQQtGYCAA7DTb2X5Q&e=
> >>>  
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> William Brent
> >>
> >> “Great minds flock together”
> >> Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century
> >>
> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.conflations.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=fl57PEVI5mP734J4WxD5hjIoB0msU2LZPA4FnonAJwj9UJC2JkEeznls80b9dxEW&s=2ZWOWNRIXvgR3olfEgo4NYZw71H5hRcu5ZmSW-gdmPw&e=
> >>  
> >> ___
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

> 
> As explained in previous emails, I don't use jack from Homebrew for my 
> builds. I use the distribution from jack.org 
>   > which is equivalent to the old JackOSX distribution:
> 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__jackaudio.org_downloads_&d=DwIFAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=ycOjZIud6YrWOk_GwSKZQH8UkGH1TeCiVsjsMIlmE_FTvOHrDlkBofF6FsBNUyl-&s=bfa_OxtCOIyvpdlj2NL0nPmVqj505twR0xAxEXWncog&e=
>   
>   >
> 
> You just need to download and run the installer on the build machine, which 
> could also be automated via a script. People needing to use jack installed 
> via Homebrew should build Pd themselves as the those libs doesn't seem to 
> enable weak linking like the ones in the installer AFAICT.
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> 

Right ho - Iohannes - I'm hoping this is something you can fix in the CI
builds (since I plan to distribute that as the up-to-date compiled version for
MacOS)

cheers
M



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

> > 
> 
> seems to run fine on "macOS Sierra - 10.12.6"
> 
> miller: does it also run on "Mac OS X Lion - 10.7"?
> (or even "OS X Snow Leopard - 10.6"?)
> 
> gffxyd
> IOhannes

Nope - Wish 8.6.12 seems to depend on newer Mac features than are
on OSX 10.7.  

But I'm OK with continuing to compile for 10.7 on my old machine and
make it available to people like me :)

Meanwhile, the jack mystery is still unsolved as far as I know (the
brew version somehow doesn't like newest jackd?)

cheers
Miller





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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

OK, here's one that I believe has 64-bit Intel and arm64 architectures
compiled in - I compiled this remotely on a macOS 11.6.1 machine.  I
can't test it right now, but if any of you can grab and see I'd be grateful.
(this is from running Dan's script, "./tcltk-wish.sh -l --universal 8.6.12".)

This should be the same thing Dan tried that resulted in a "Damaged app" 
message on his machine - I'm just hoping that running it on a totally
different machine will help for whatever reason :)


http://msp.ucsd.edu/tmp/Wish-8.6.12.app.tgz

thanks
Miller


On Sun, Dec 12, 2021 at 11:25:46AM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> I depends on the version of Xcode and/or CLITools you have installed. It 
> needs to be new enough to support -arch arm64.
> 
> > On Dec 12, 2021, at 6:26 AM, Lucas Cordiviola  wrote:
> > 
> > The "--universal" switch didn't work on this VM: the compiler fails to 
> > build the test program at the beginning.
> > 
> > Anyway I'm leaving this VM in peace as I don't want to screw it up. I only 
> > use it to build a couple of externals.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
> > On 12/11/2021 11:21 AM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> >> For a (modern) fat build:
> >> 
> >> ./mac/tcltk-wish.sh --universal 8.6.12
> >> 
> >> However make sure to try the generated Wish-8.6.12.app. I have no problems 
> >> making a universal build, however the resulting Wish doesn't *run* and a 
> >> generated Pd.app using it as a source would not run either. I think there 
> >> is a problem with the Tk makefile "embedded" target which assembles the 
> >> Wish.app.
> >> 
> >>> On Dec 11, 2021, at 12:00 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at 
> >>> <mailto:pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Message: 1
> >>> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2021 02:44:38 -0300
> >>> From: Lucas Cordiviola  >>> <mailto:lucard...@hotmail.com>>
> >>> To: Miller Puckette mailto:m...@ucsd.edu>>, 
> >>> pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>
> >>> Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released
> >>> Message-ID:
> >>>   
> >>>  >>>  
> >>> <mailto:ds7pr10mb48457d61678049d87b569aeba6...@ds7pr10mb4845.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>>
> >>>   
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >>> 
> >>> On 12/10/2021 11:58 PM, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> >>>> Looks like I can get a Mac running 10.13 this Monday, so will probably
> >>>> be able to build Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 then, unless someone else does it first.
> >>>> (It's easy to do using Dan's scripts, all you need is a Mac running a
> >>>> less ancient OS than 10.7
> >>> 
> >>> I had run:
> >>> 
> >>> ?? ?mac/tcltk-wish.sh 8.6.12
> >>> 
> >>> on a VM [macOS 10.15.7] using QEMU on a Debian10 machine.
> >>> 
> >>> Here is the build (zipped) and the log:
> >>> 
> >>> ?? 
> >>> ?https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nc.nubegris.com.ar_index.php_s_AMDde4EcqZzAZBn&d=DwIFAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=pUDUnwMwtM1gQzGh5pRh4tr1grCOQtmE2YH_fRaqZWamfq1MdtU8DW1Rnd4_-N9H&s=UJA5fYiHXo3ZfvcFbO8fpm-wILYKgkq06xdT5N_9VrM&e=
> >>>   
> >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nc.nubegris.com.ar_index.php_s_AMDde4EcqZzAZBn&d=DwIFAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=pUDUnwMwtM1gQzGh5pRh4tr1grCOQtmE2YH_fRaqZWamfq1MdtU8DW1Rnd4_-N9H&s=UJA5fYiHXo3ZfvcFbO8fpm-wILYKgkq06xdT5N_9VrM&e=
> >>>  >
> >>> 
> >>> On theory it should work.
> >>> 
> >>> :)
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Dan Wilcox
> >> @danomatika 
> >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_danomatika&d=DwIFAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=pUDUnwMwtM1gQzGh5pRh4tr1grCOQtmE2YH_fRaqZWamfq1MdtU8DW1Rnd4_-N9H&s=cY26l8O39zpd5pFDeTEj2kdSs5LM66tusaFtLTEYGPI&e=
> >>  >
> >> danomatika.com 
> >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__danomatika.com_&d=DwIFAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=pUDUnwMwtM1gQzGh5pRh4tr1grCOQtmE2YH_fRaqZWamfq1MdtU8DW1Rnd4_-N9H&s=3NxM-gsNTnCdJpIFEI7J

Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Looks like I can get a Mac running 10.13 this Monday, so will probably
be able to build Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 then, unless someone else does it first.
(It's easy to do using Dan's scripts, all you need is a Mac running a
less ancient OS than 10.7 :)

Miller

On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 12:23:24PM -0800, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 09:20:09PM +0100, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > On 12/10/21 21:11, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > > Looks like I'm not going to be able to get 8.6.12 running on my MACOS 10.7
> > > machine (errors compiling the event-management code - exactly the stuff
> > > that it was so miserable to get running before)...  so considering the 
> > > "main"
> > > version of Pd should run OK on 10.10 and onward, I think it's OK to just 
> > > stick
> > > with the patched 8.6.10 for the 10.7-10.9 version.
> > > 
> > 
> > darn.
> > 
> > my secret plan to solve the problem with the CI-build not starting up, was
> > actually to just use the bundled Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 (from
> > mac/stuff/wish-shell.tgz).
> > in fact i was really hoping the pre-built Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 to be a fat binary (
> > provided e.g. by Dan :-P)
> > 
> > if a pre-build Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 is not going to get into mac/stuff/ i'll need
> > to investigate into getting a life build working on the CI (again).
> > 
> > fmdfdsa
> > IOhannes
> 
> Alternatively, if someone can throw me a pre-built Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 I can just
> add it to "stuff" and leave the Tcl/Tk-8.6.10 version in there as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 09:20:09PM +0100, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> On 12/10/21 21:11, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > Looks like I'm not going to be able to get 8.6.12 running on my MACOS 10.7
> > machine (errors compiling the event-management code - exactly the stuff
> > that it was so miserable to get running before)...  so considering the 
> > "main"
> > version of Pd should run OK on 10.10 and onward, I think it's OK to just 
> > stick
> > with the patched 8.6.10 for the 10.7-10.9 version.
> > 
> 
> darn.
> 
> my secret plan to solve the problem with the CI-build not starting up, was
> actually to just use the bundled Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 (from
> mac/stuff/wish-shell.tgz).
> in fact i was really hoping the pre-built Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 to be a fat binary (
> provided e.g. by Dan :-P)
> 
> if a pre-build Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 is not going to get into mac/stuff/ i'll need
> to investigate into getting a life build working on the CI (again).
> 
> fmdfdsa
> IOhannes

Alternatively, if someone can throw me a pre-built Tcl/Tk-8.6.12 I can just
add it to "stuff" and leave the Tcl/Tk-8.6.10 version in there as well.




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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Looks like I'm not going to be able to get 8.6.12 running on my MACOS 10.7
machine (errors compiling the event-management code - exactly the stuff
that it was so miserable to get running before)...  so considering the "main"
version of Pd should run OK on 10.10 and onward, I think it's OK to just stick
with the patched 8.6.10 for the 10.7-10.9 version.

cheers
M

On Thu, Dec 09, 2021 at 09:04:22PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> Yes, major reasons to move to Tk 8.6.12 on macOS, least of which is that it 
> already incorporates all the fixes the back ported patches address as well as 
> supports a couple of things added to macOS 12.
> 
> For a summary, see: 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata_pull_1414&d=DwIFAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=pnAlCUWZ5MzYYSykucuR5HOfc18ah9O_nmAOsb7LeslXPQGgKENZepMhJVbqppWl&s=L0gd4KUwAdCncnta1-XfFeR7TUL3zGQoc_m8yvN_gmQ&e=
>   
>   >
> 
> > On Dec 9, 2021, at 8:57 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> > 
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 11:57:29 -0800
> > From: Miller Puckette mailto:m...@ucsd.edu>>
> > To: Dan Wilcox mailto:danomat...@gmail.com>>
> > Cc: Pd-List mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>>
> > Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce]  Pd version 0.52-0test3 released
> > Message-ID: mailto:ybjfqery4pwer...@ucsd.edu>>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > 
> > I might have something mislabeled, but I _think_ all the Pd builds I'm
> > making are indeed based on Wish-8.6.10, with these 4 patches:
> > 
> > tk8.6.10_helpmenu.patch
> > tk8.6.10_keyfix.patch
> > tk8.6.10_scrollbars.patch
> > tk8.6.10_zombiewindows.patch
> > 
> > OTOH, should I 'upgrade' to ish-8.6.12?  If there/s no reason to, I'd just
> > as soon keep things as they are.
> > 
> > cheers
> > M
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

So combining from two branches of this same thread: Iohannes writes:

afaict the problem actually was that Pd doesn't launch at all.
(un)fortunately i am able to reproduce this on a Sierra machine:

(and then various trouble)... and from below, Dans' got Pd working with the
newest jack but not running multi-arch yet:

On Thu, Dec 09, 2021 at 08:45:25PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> I use the "official" JACK distribution installer from <> and *not* JACK via 
> Homebrew. I believe I've mentioned this in one or two of the "JACK doesn't 
> work" threads on Github. My testing back then indicated that linking to JACK 
> from Homebrew would result in the usual dylib missing errors when running on 
> other systems and didn't result in a weaklink. Maybe this is something that 
> works in newer versions or requires some Homebrew install flag?

---

so I think what I'm doing now is waiting for Iohannes's CI build to solve _two_
problems, the not-running-on-Sierra and the weak-linking-to-jack-broken.  (Sorry
Iohannes)...

Meanwhile I think I can make myself useful doing these:

Dan's PR to get MIDI working in libpd
naming the released files coherently
upgrading the "macosx7" (sometimes typoed as "macos7", ouch) version to
incorporate Tcl/Tk 8.6.12

cheers
Miller




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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I might have something mislabeled, but I _think_ all the Pd builds I'm
making are indeed based on Wish-8.6.10, with these 4 patches:

tk8.6.10_helpmenu.patch
tk8.6.10_keyfix.patch
tk8.6.10_scrollbars.patch
tk8.6.10_zombiewindows.patch

OTOH, should I 'upgrade' to ish-8.6.12?  If there/s no reason to, I'd just
as soon keep things as they are.

cheers
M

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 10:52:56PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> I think that's an old version. It looks like Tk 8.6.10 when it should be the 
> Tk 8.6.12 as you have in the 0.52-0test3 builds.
> 
> > On Dec 8, 2021, at 7:20 PM, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> > 
> > Should be there now (on github; I presume that's where it would be
> > useful.)
> > 
> > cheers
> > M
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 05:29:11PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> >> Howdy Miller,
> >> 
> >> can you update mac/stuff.tgz with the latest Wish you've compiled? That's 
> >> need before the release so people self-compiling will get the right 
> >> version when using `make app`.
> >> 
> >>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 4:54 PM, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> I think it would be sensible to build the "official" Pd binary with the
> >>> newest JACK - I think anyone running the older JACK can probably fall back
> >>> to the "macosx7" compile that I can still compile :)
> >>> 
> >>> Iohannes - is this an easy thing for you to change in the CI sys?
> >>> 
> >>> thanks
> >>> Miller
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Dan Wilcox
> >> @danomatika 
> >>  >>  
> >> 
> >>  >
> >> danomatika.com 
> >>  >>  > 
> >>  >>  
> >> 
> >>  >
> >> robotcowboy.com 
> >>  >>  > 
> >>  >>  
> >> 
> >>  >
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] mc – multichannel extension for Pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I'm hoping to make this part of a major change that will have to introduce
a new version of t_signal to hold extra info (overlap factor for sub-blocked
windows; separate sample rate and number-of-samples-per-second; at least one
additional dimension for multichannel signals and/or images; some sort of
control by which objects can specify whether they require the same sizes
of input and output signals, )

Not for 0.52 though...

cheers
M

On Thu, Dec 09, 2021 at 06:22:33PM +0100, Winfried Ritsch wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Yes, thank you Christof for your notices,there are a lot of ideas about 
> PdSnake  ( 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__git.iem.at_pd_pdsnake_-2D_blob_master_docs_&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=FHyiZea0TQQHi-c8JicPAalOfO_9XMXhmhxsnmN7P0xA3uFhfF4Gg7Kkf4qx1aRs&s=_fc1CYUxloktEjjWR0XonNafTenxp_VB2uPhCQHo7_M&e=
>  
> , which Miller can laugh about sometimes  ;-)
> 
> We started this repository in case someone want to implement it, maybe a 
> place 
> also for ideas  ideas in there...:
> 
> - 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__git.iem.at_pd_pdsnake&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=FHyiZea0TQQHi-c8JicPAalOfO_9XMXhmhxsnmN7P0xA3uFhfF4Gg7Kkf4qx1aRs&s=BIBlqd_xWxkn1fV7w3udY6bIkmfCCT27GUvTl1fZBqk&e=
>  
> 
> mfg winfried
> 
> 
> Am Donnerstag, 9. Dezember 2021, 16:44:33 CET schrieb Christof Ressi:
> > Lots of nice ideas! I will definitely look at your abstractions for
> > inspiration.
> > 
> > On 09.12.2021 16:34, Thomas Grill wrote:
> > > Hi Christof,
> > > i didn't know about the initiative, but good that this is on a todo list!
> > > Many of your ideas listed here are implemented in my mc project.
> > > One drawback is definitely that the send~/receive~ based architecture
> > > can't cope with varying block sizes.
> > > 
> > > There are other problems concerning state preservation of mapped objects
> > > upon changed in the signal graph which i think can't be solved within the
> > > abstraction-based system.> 
> > >> FWIW, after talking to Winfried about Pd-snake a while ago, I worked out
> > >> a backwards compatible multichannel solution in my sketch book but never
> > >> came around making a proof of concept implementation (yet). AFAICT, it
> > >> should be possible to do.> 
> > > It is possible to also implement a detection whether a signal has been
> > > generated through mc._out (and represents a multichannel transport), or
> > > it is a normal signal. This can be done using some watermark, but
> > > clearly, this will not be 100% safe.> 
> > >> * [mc~ join ] join several (single-channel) input signals into
> > >> a multi-channel output signal.> 
> > > i named that mc.pack~
> > > Currently, there is also mc.concat to join two multi-signals.
> > > 
> > >> * [mc~ split ] splits a multi-channel input signal into
> > >> invidual (single-channel) output signals> 
> > > there is mc.unpack~, but also mc.index / mc.slice to select channels (for
> > > example interleaved pairs) out of the multi-signal.> 
> > >> * [mc~ sig ] creates a multi-channel signal from several float
> > >> inlets.> 
> > > not implemented yet, but easy to do
> > > 
> > >> * [mc~ ] tells an object to operate in multi-channel mode. If the
> > >> object doesn't support it (or knows about it), it operates as if the
> > >> inputs were single-channel and Pd prints a warning.> 
> > > mc.map maps (currently only mono) signal objects onto the multi-signal.
> > > Other mappings (most notably stereo) should be possible. mc.effect maps
> > > the mc multi-signal to an abstraction with many signal inputs/outputs,
> > > like vstplugin~
> > > 
> > > 
> > > best, Thomas
> > > 
> > >> On 09.12.2021 09:41, Winfried Ritsch wrote:
> > >>> Am Sonntag, 5. Dezember 2021, 17:22:44 CET schrieb Thomas Grill:
> >  Hi all,
> >  i'd like to make you aware of an abstraction library i have made
> >  because of
> >  working more with multi-channel loudspeaker systems lately.
> >  
> >  Dealing with many parallel signal connections was cumbersome, so i have
> >  come up with the mc library in order to abstract multi-channel
> >  processing. It consists of pure-Pd abstractions using dynamic object
> >  creation and it is NOT related or compatible with the similarly named
> >  Max approach. I hope there are no similar libraries out yet, i have
> >  not come across anything related.
> > >>> 
> > >>> There was an discussion 2013 on a workshop with Miller on the IEM and a
> > >>> solution was proposed:
> > >>> 
> > >>> "Pd-snake was an idea 2013 within a workshop with Miller Puckette at the
> > >>> IEM to extend Pd with multichannel signal connection, which is
> > >>> backwards compatible, but has not been implemented yet."
> > >>> 
> > >>> The main idea (trick) was to hold an parallel info about a signal which
> > >>> multichannel or not... to be upward compatible and add some multichannel
> > >>> natives object to collect an

Re: [PD] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

So I guess they should be labeled "Macintosh OS 10.10 or later" and
"Macintosh OS 10.7-9".  I'm not sure if "macos7" works on 10.10 or not,
but I don't think it matters much :)

M
On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 05:30:22PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> Em ter., 7 de dez. de 2021 às 22:51, Miller Puckette 
> escreveu:
> 
> > So I guess the OS11 one should say "10 or later" and the "9" version is
> > the same as the
> > "7" version (so I'll just keep the "7" link around).
> >
> 
> "9" is too old and unsupported, "7" is even older. I see the confusion now,
> we actually mean "10.7", "10.9", "10.10" and so on.
> 
> It's all clearer for 0.51-4, where we have
> 
> - compiled for Macintosh OSX 10.9 (?) or later
> 
> 
> and
> 
> -- Compiled versions for older systems -
> - 64-bit Macintosh version for OSX 10.6 or later
> 
> 
> 
> We just need to sort now what are the actual current minimal requirements.
> If it's 10.7 and 10.10
> 
> And it should be noted that the one compiled for older systems has a
> maximum requirement (I'm assuming it won't run on macOS 11 or later).
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > thanks
> > M
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 06, 2021 at 02:19:39PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> > > and since i'm talking aboute editing the site, you may wanna have "
> > >
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__puredata.info_&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=M1ANtpsp5o1IdXmqK6FhJk7Y5akzcTL5y51zVczlgr0kHoP8RNHj0sl198yRfuHb&s=vnPheJM8uLP7Fxyee5etc6rEprXDY7_nAxzpfIsJTDI&e=
> > " as an active link on your site ;)
> > >
> > > Em seg., 6 de dez. de 2021 às 13:17, Alexandre Torres Porres <
> > > por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
> > >
> > > > cool, now your emails are coming through :)
> > > >
> > > > mac downloads on your site are confusing
> > > >
> > > > there are 4 downloads
> > > >
> > > > - compiled for Macintosh OS 11 or later
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > - compiled for
> > > > Macintosh OSX 9 or 10
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > - 32-bit ("i386") Macintosh version for OSX 10.6 or later; can load
> > old,
> > > > 32-bit external libraries
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > - 64-bit Macintosh version for OSX 10.6 or later
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > I have 10.14.16 and could download and use the one compiled for OS 11
> > just
> > > > fine.
> > > >
> > > > The one that says it's compiled for "OSX 9" doesn't seem right - OSX9
> > is
> > > > long gone and it'd have to be compiled just for it. This one also
> > > > uncompresses to a confusing Pd-0.52-0test3-*macosx7* file. And the one
> > > > compiled to "64-bit Macintosh version for OSX 10.6 or later" also
> > > > uncompresses to this same file name.  Ayway, I can use this one too as
> > well
> > > > as the 64 bit for OSX 10.6 or later. So do we really need these 3?
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > > Em seg., 6 de dez. de 2021 às 03:44, Miller Puckette via Pd-announce <
> > > > pd-annou...@lists.iem.at> escreveu:
> > > >
> > > >> To Pd announce:
> > > >>
> > > >> Pd 0.52-0 test3 is out on the usual site:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm
> > > >>
> > > >> or (source only) on github:
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=M1ANtpsp5o1IdXmqK6FhJk7Y5akzcTL5y51zVczlgr0kHoP8RNHj0sl198yRfuHb&s=gIe7LEUDkO4ku3G7Bjp_zUxkM0LBYDnOwrd9ZtbJrgo&e=
> > > >>
> > > >> cheers
> > > >> Miller
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> Pd-announce mailing list
> > > >> pd-annou...@lists.iem.at
> > > >>
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.puredata.info_listinfo_pd-2Dannounce&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=M1ANtpsp5o1IdXmqK6FhJk7Y5akzcTL5y51zVczlgr0kHoP8RNHj0sl198yRfuHb&s=x8eWNn28_00VKWG4MNwNvZOYgaK67g8N9rOumP5Ws4Y&e=
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> > > >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> > > >>
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.puredata.info_listinfo_pd-2Dlist&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=M1ANtpsp5o1IdXmqK6FhJk7Y5akzcTL5y51zVczlgr0kHoP8RNHj0sl198yRfuHb&s=NGbSvVQC3ejs0H_BhPedhkIBglvhICb5q8Jp5QuMTBc&e=
> > > >>
> > > >
> >
> > > ___
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Drat... I'd better look again...

M

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 10:52:56PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> I think that's an old version. It looks like Tk 8.6.10 when it should be the 
> Tk 8.6.12 as you have in the 0.52-0test3 builds.
> 
> > On Dec 8, 2021, at 7:20 PM, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> > 
> > Should be there now (on github; I presume that's where it would be
> > useful.)
> > 
> > cheers
> > M
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 05:29:11PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> >> Howdy Miller,
> >> 
> >> can you update mac/stuff.tgz with the latest Wish you've compiled? That's 
> >> need before the release so people self-compiling will get the right 
> >> version when using `make app`.
> >> 
> >>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 4:54 PM, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> I think it would be sensible to build the "official" Pd binary with the
> >>> newest JACK - I think anyone running the older JACK can probably fall back
> >>> to the "macosx7" compile that I can still compile :)
> >>> 
> >>> Iohannes - is this an easy thing for you to change in the CI sys?
> >>> 
> >>> thanks
> >>> Miller
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Dan Wilcox
> >> @danomatika 
> >>  >>  
> >> 
> >>  >
> >> danomatika.com 
> >>  >>  > 
> >>  >>  
> >> 
> >>  >
> >> robotcowboy.com 
> >>  >>  > 
> >>  >>  
> >> 
> >>  >
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Looking closer at Iohannes's CI output I saw:

Downloading https://ghcr.io/v2/homebrew/core/jack/manifests/1.9.19-2

... this _looks_ like jack2 to me.  So there must be something more subtle
happening than just the jack version Pd is linked to on the CI build.
(This is the build that's labeled "compiled for Macintosh OS 10 or later",
confusingly, as Alexandre has pointed out :)

M

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 08:05:07PM -0800, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> Hmm, I see "-ljack" in the command line in the CI output... so I guess
> what version of jack it links to depends on what is installed on the machine
> the CI process runs on?
> 
> cheers
> Miller
> 
> On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 04:55:39PM -0500, William Brent wrote:
> > Thanks everyone for all the action on this. I've tried two Pd 0.52-0 test3
> > versions downloaded today from http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.html
> > 
> >- "compiled for Macintosh OS 10 or later"
> >- "64-bit Macintosh version for OSX 10.7 or later"
> > 
> > Both of these fail to recognize when I have the latest version of JACK
> > running and tell me that they can't open JACK. Dan's latest single-arch
> > build successfully recognizes the latest JACK and opens just fine on my
> > x86_64 Mac under Big Sur.
> > 
> > I'm happy to do any testing needed to help out here, so just let me know.
> > William
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 2:02 PM Miller Puckette  wrote:
> > 
> > > Oops, perhaps this whole thing was a false alarm on my end...
> > >
> > > William - is it still the case that the Mac version on the website is
> > > failing to connect with the current version of jack?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > M
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 07:55:03PM +0100, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > > > On 12/8/21 16:54, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > > > > I think it would be sensible to build the "official" Pd binary with 
> > > > > the
> > > > > newest JACK - I think anyone running the older JACK can probably fall
> > > back
> > > > > to the "macosx7" compile that I can still compile :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Iohannes - is this an easy thing for you to change in the CI sys?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > actually, the CI already does this...
> > > >
> > > > the relevant change to the CI configuration is here:
> > > > <
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata-2Dci_commit_0ef09a0bbfe46eea481715ceb09683947a604623&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=wFwYsyJQRiFd0mFeiCHlLDd4wrACgeX5kz7p5whpOCQsRKdQ0-CMs8RBDtsTwxHv&s=cAegjjs61n3qOyj47m4KBq-QMztZGXHUiCtuk3w8bAk&e=
> > >  
> > > >
> > > > (it has since been superseded, but in the core it remains the same)
> > > >
> > > > the current build logs show that the CI indeed only links against 
> > > > libjack
> > > > (and not against the framework):
> > > >
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__git.iem.at_pd_pure-2Ddata_-2D_jobs_33678-23L2432&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=wFwYsyJQRiFd0mFeiCHlLDd4wrACgeX5kz7p5whpOCQsRKdQ0-CMs8RBDtsTwxHv&s=lQv43UKdfdyAdKNl-ReorlMeU34fHvQZGZ0CbSLIBTg&e=
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > fdsf
> > > > IOhannes
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> > > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.puredata.info_listinfo_pd-2Dlist&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=wFwYsyJQRiFd0mFeiCHlLDd4wrACgeX5kz7p5whpOCQsRKdQ0-CMs8RBDtsTwxHv&s=vAWFiZvktSBUP_kWdwODstOl2gWTA8kskn0CqENAxeY&e=
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > -- 
> > William Brent
> > 
> > “Great minds flock together”
> > Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century
> > 
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.conflations.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=wFwYsyJQRiFd0mFeiCHlLDd4wrACgeX5kz7p5whpOCQsRKdQ0-CMs8RBDtsTwxHv&s=l7CVY8yl7Vwpm7cJxO3vctmYaXdQ6CsSY5iPK8pZW94&e=
> >  
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hmm, I see "-ljack" in the command line in the CI output... so I guess
what version of jack it links to depends on what is installed on the machine
the CI process runs on?

cheers
Miller

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 04:55:39PM -0500, William Brent wrote:
> Thanks everyone for all the action on this. I've tried two Pd 0.52-0 test3
> versions downloaded today from http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.html
> 
>- "compiled for Macintosh OS 10 or later"
>- "64-bit Macintosh version for OSX 10.7 or later"
> 
> Both of these fail to recognize when I have the latest version of JACK
> running and tell me that they can't open JACK. Dan's latest single-arch
> build successfully recognizes the latest JACK and opens just fine on my
> x86_64 Mac under Big Sur.
> 
> I'm happy to do any testing needed to help out here, so just let me know.
> William
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 2:02 PM Miller Puckette  wrote:
> 
> > Oops, perhaps this whole thing was a false alarm on my end...
> >
> > William - is it still the case that the Mac version on the website is
> > failing to connect with the current version of jack?
> >
> > thanks
> > M
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 07:55:03PM +0100, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> > > On 12/8/21 16:54, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > > > I think it would be sensible to build the "official" Pd binary with the
> > > > newest JACK - I think anyone running the older JACK can probably fall
> > back
> > > > to the "macosx7" compile that I can still compile :)
> > > >
> > > > Iohannes - is this an easy thing for you to change in the CI sys?
> > >
> > >
> > > actually, the CI already does this...
> > >
> > > the relevant change to the CI configuration is here:
> > > <
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata-2Dci_commit_0ef09a0bbfe46eea481715ceb09683947a604623&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=wFwYsyJQRiFd0mFeiCHlLDd4wrACgeX5kz7p5whpOCQsRKdQ0-CMs8RBDtsTwxHv&s=cAegjjs61n3qOyj47m4KBq-QMztZGXHUiCtuk3w8bAk&e=
> >  
> > >
> > > (it has since been superseded, but in the core it remains the same)
> > >
> > > the current build logs show that the CI indeed only links against libjack
> > > (and not against the framework):
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__git.iem.at_pd_pure-2Ddata_-2D_jobs_33678-23L2432&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=wFwYsyJQRiFd0mFeiCHlLDd4wrACgeX5kz7p5whpOCQsRKdQ0-CMs8RBDtsTwxHv&s=lQv43UKdfdyAdKNl-ReorlMeU34fHvQZGZ0CbSLIBTg&e=
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > > fdsf
> > > IOhannes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > ___
> > > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list
> > > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.puredata.info_listinfo_pd-2Dlist&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=wFwYsyJQRiFd0mFeiCHlLDd4wrACgeX5kz7p5whpOCQsRKdQ0-CMs8RBDtsTwxHv&s=vAWFiZvktSBUP_kWdwODstOl2gWTA8kskn0CqENAxeY&e=
> >  
> >
> >
> 
> -- 
> William Brent
> 
> “Great minds flock together”
> Conflations: conversational idiom for the 21st century
> 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.conflations.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=wFwYsyJQRiFd0mFeiCHlLDd4wrACgeX5kz7p5whpOCQsRKdQ0-CMs8RBDtsTwxHv&s=l7CVY8yl7Vwpm7cJxO3vctmYaXdQ6CsSY5iPK8pZW94&e=
>  



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Oops, perhaps this whole thing was a false alarm on my end...

William - is it still the case that the Mac version on the website is
failing to connect with the current version of jack?

thanks
M

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 07:55:03PM +0100, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> On 12/8/21 16:54, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > I think it would be sensible to build the "official" Pd binary with the
> > newest JACK - I think anyone running the older JACK can probably fall back
> > to the "macosx7" compile that I can still compile :)
> > 
> > Iohannes - is this an easy thing for you to change in the CI sys?
> 
> 
> actually, the CI already does this...
> 
> the relevant change to the CI configuration is here:
> <https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data-ci/commit/0ef09a0bbfe46eea481715ceb09683947a604623>
> (it has since been superseded, but in the core it remains the same)
> 
> the current build logs show that the CI indeed only links against libjack
> (and not against the framework):
> 
> https://git.iem.at/pd/pure-data/-/jobs/33678#L2432
> 
> 
> fdsf
> IOhannes




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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Should be there now (on github; I presume that's where it would be
useful.)

cheers
M

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 05:29:11PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> Howdy Miller,
> 
> can you update mac/stuff.tgz with the latest Wish you've compiled? That's 
> need before the release so people self-compiling will get the right version 
> when using `make app`.
> 
> > On Dec 8, 2021, at 4:54 PM, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> > 
> > I think it would be sensible to build the "official" Pd binary with the
> > newest JACK - I think anyone running the older JACK can probably fall back
> > to the "macosx7" compile that I can still compile :)
> > 
> > Iohannes - is this an easy thing for you to change in the CI sys?
> > 
> > thanks
> > Miller
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I think it would be sensible to build the "official" Pd binary with the
newest JACK - I think anyone running the older JACK can probably fall back
to the "macosx7" compile that I can still compile :)

Iohannes - is this an easy thing for you to change in the CI sys?

thanks
Miller

On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 04:48:00PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> A "damaged" app bundle usually indicates something is missing or misnamed 
> internally. It can also indicate a signing error.
> 
> I tried making an updated universal build with JACK but the resulting bundle 
> doesn't run even on my own machine, so something is wrong with the build or 
> the script which assembles the Pd .app. I will look at this.
> 
> Also, in my opinion and I know I've suggested this before, builds for newer 
> systems should be linked to the newer version of JACK buy default ala:
> 
> ./configure --disable-jack-framework --enable-jack
> 
> This requires having the JACK distribution pre-compiled libs installed.
> 
> > On Dec 8, 2021, at 3:16 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> > 
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 09:15:10 -0500
> > From: William Brent  > >
> > To: Miller Puckette mailto:m...@ucsd.edu>>
> > Cc: pd-annou...@lists.iem.at 
> > Subject: Re: [PD] [PD-announce]   Pd version 0.52-0test3 released
> > Message-ID:
> >  > >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > 
> > Unfortunately, that build is showing up as "damaged" for my students on Mac
> > OS Mojave and Big Sur, only offering the option of moving it to the trash
> > (see the attached screenshot). Even the usual route of doing a
> > right-click/open on the app leads to the same message, and in the Mac OS
> > security preferences it never offers the option to approve opening the app.
> > I can get them to successfully launch it from the command line by having
> > them navigate to the pd binary in the app bundle though. Or of course, just
> > build from source themselves. Not sure how important this is to others but
> > I'm doing a lot of work with JACK in my classes and nearly all of my
> > students are on Mac OS.
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 7:40 PM Miller Puckette  > > wrote:
> > 
> >> Dan Wilcox has a build againset the new Jack:
> >> 
> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__docs.danomatika.com_pdbuilds_0.52_Pd-2D0.52-2D0-2Duniversal-2Djack.zip&d=DwIFAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=2hemQHRQfjbCsughWsFIC5EBZ4nVjvjEVuJZX0ff6pu0n08NrImpQK4A4EHxLdNs&s=UmZ7eRZEVxt-DzmPB21J_qjoTuP5TH1qJaUkt7CcTCI&e=
> >>   
> >>  >>  >
> >> 
> >> (I think I need to include that in the (growing) list of compiled versions
> >> on my site, hmm...)
> >> 
> >> cheers
> >> Miller
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [PD] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

So I guess the OS11 one should say "10 or later" and the "9" version is the 
same as the
"7" version (so I'll just keep the "7" link around.

thanks
M

On Mon, Dec 06, 2021 at 02:19:39PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> and since i'm talking aboute editing the site, you may wanna have "
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__puredata.info_&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=M1ANtpsp5o1IdXmqK6FhJk7Y5akzcTL5y51zVczlgr0kHoP8RNHj0sl198yRfuHb&s=vnPheJM8uLP7Fxyee5etc6rEprXDY7_nAxzpfIsJTDI&e=
>  " as an active link on your site ;)
> 
> Em seg., 6 de dez. de 2021 às 13:17, Alexandre Torres Porres <
> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
> 
> > cool, now your emails are coming through :)
> >
> > mac downloads on your site are confusing
> >
> > there are 4 downloads
> >
> > - compiled for Macintosh OS 11 or later
> > 
> >
> > - compiled for
> > Macintosh OSX 9 or 10
> > 
> >
> > - 32-bit ("i386") Macintosh version for OSX 10.6 or later; can load old,
> > 32-bit external libraries
> > 
> >
> > - 64-bit Macintosh version for OSX 10.6 or later
> > 
> >
> > I have 10.14.16 and could download and use the one compiled for OS 11 just
> > fine.
> >
> > The one that says it's compiled for "OSX 9" doesn't seem right - OSX9 is
> > long gone and it'd have to be compiled just for it. This one also
> > uncompresses to a confusing Pd-0.52-0test3-*macosx7* file. And the one
> > compiled to "64-bit Macintosh version for OSX 10.6 or later" also
> > uncompresses to this same file name.  Ayway, I can use this one too as well
> > as the 64 bit for OSX 10.6 or later. So do we really need these 3?
> >
> > cheers
> > Em seg., 6 de dez. de 2021 às 03:44, Miller Puckette via Pd-announce <
> > pd-annou...@lists.iem.at> escreveu:
> >
> >> To Pd announce:
> >>
> >> Pd 0.52-0 test3 is out on the usual site:
> >>
> >> http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.htm
> >>
> >> or (source only) on github: 
> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=M1ANtpsp5o1IdXmqK6FhJk7Y5akzcTL5y51zVczlgr0kHoP8RNHj0sl198yRfuHb&s=gIe7LEUDkO4ku3G7Bjp_zUxkM0LBYDnOwrd9ZtbJrgo&e=
> >>  
> >>
> >> cheers
> >> Miller
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Pd-announce mailing list
> >> pd-annou...@lists.iem.at
> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.puredata.info_listinfo_pd-2Dannounce&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=M1ANtpsp5o1IdXmqK6FhJk7Y5akzcTL5y51zVczlgr0kHoP8RNHj0sl198yRfuHb&s=x8eWNn28_00VKWG4MNwNvZOYgaK67g8N9rOumP5Ws4Y&e=
> >>  
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.puredata.info_listinfo_pd-2Dlist&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=M1ANtpsp5o1IdXmqK6FhJk7Y5akzcTL5y51zVczlgr0kHoP8RNHj0sl198yRfuHb&s=NGbSvVQC3ejs0H_BhPedhkIBglvhICb5q8Jp5QuMTBc&e=
> >>  
> >>
> >

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Re: [PD] Pd version 0.52-0test3 released

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Nope... I think it's a zip file that unpacks to "test3".

but now I don't know which "compile" to use, "Darwin" or "macOS"
(both appear on https://git.iem.at/pd/pure-data/-/pipelines ).  The "Darwin"
is a zip file containing the raw app, and the "macOS" one is a "disk image".
I'd prefer to distribute the "Darwin" version if it works on all the newest
MacOS versions.

cheers
Miller

"macOS is correct, but the one I uploaded was "Darwin".  
On Mon, Dec 06, 2021 at 03:09:15PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> Em seg., 6 de dez. de 2021 às 15:05, Alexandre Torres Porres <
> por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
> 
> >
> >
> > Em seg., 6 de dez. de 2021 às 14:19, Alexandre Torres Porres <
> > por...@gmail.com> escreveu:
> >
> >>
> >> there are 4 downloads
> >>>
> >>> - compiled for Macintosh OS 11 or later
> >>> 
> >>>
> >> hmmm, this one is actually uncompressed to "test2"
> >
> 
> I guess you reverted back to test2 and is fixing things now, right?

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Re: [PD] 0.52.0test2: window jitter on (Mac OS)

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Excellent news... I'm busy trying to grind out test3 which will have the fix in.

cheers
M

On Sun, Dec 05, 2021 at 06:12:38PM +, Philip Stone wrote:
> Thanks, Miller. I can confirm that build #8286 does *not* exhibit the problem.
> 
> Phil
> 
> From: Miller Puckette 
> Date: Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 9:33 AM
> To: Philip Stone 
> Cc: pd-list@lists.iem.at 
> Subject: Re: [PD] 0.52.0test2: window jitter on (Mac OS)
> If you're on a mac you can just go to
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__git.iem.at_pd_pure-2Ddata_-2D_pipelines&d=DwIF-g&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=xDf6bAK0urUWlQ2gLTJeNAM5MGFVWSoQNI1C7CUb36eq4Z0SKCMjZfthDzHhmOou&s=3UvAtV-kEOVPgZQYuuObqFZK5aGFXpdlCXW0JiWFwug&e=
>  
> 
> look at the latest version that has finished compiling (build #8286 , third
> from top).  On the "..." drop-down, you can grab "macOS:archive" which
> should be an "app" with the fix in it.
> 
> cheers
> Miller
> 
> On Sun, Dec 05, 2021 at 05:10:04PM +, Philip Stone via Pd-list wrote:
> > Hi Iohannes,
> >
> > What I called “visual flutter” does indeed sound like the github issue you 
> > referenced – it is the scrollbars that are flashing when one transitions 
> > from floating over an object to not floating over it.
> >
> > I’ve never compiled Pd before, but maybe this is an opportunity to learn. 
> > If I can figure it out, I’ll do it and report.
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 00:15:20 +0100
> > From: IOhannes m zm?lnig 
> > To: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> > Subject: Re: [PD] 0.52.0test2: window jitter on (Mac OS)
> > Message-ID: <38f6fbe3-3a3b-b5a9-6625-260a89311...@iem.at>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> >
> > On 12/4/21 23:20, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > > Howdy Phil,
> > >
> > > this may be related to a reported GOP performance problem with test2, so 
> > > I copied your report to the issue on Github:
> >
> > it might also be related to the scrollbar glitches reported in [1410]
> > (it's kind of hard to tell what "visual flutter" really means here).
> >
> > in any case, both issues ought to be fixed in current 'master' branch
> > (no pre-release yet).
> > @phil so if you are up to compiling you might give it a try...
> >
> > gfmds
> > IOhannes
> >
> > [1410] 
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata_issues_1410&d=DwIF-g&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=ioq7Ka00BM3zn1qhlJYaeymUbmoT1D7td0YpLJVzPRAxw9eW6JDM6q-Ht0dewD-e&s=W_UiSijTQKQVDgp7N8_8uBtGrlI51by-LGXOFQBQX4A&e=
> > 
> 
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Re: [PD] 0.52.0test2: window jitter on (Mac OS)

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

If you're on a mac you can just go to 
https://git.iem.at/pd/pure-data/-/pipelines

look at the latest version that has finished compiling (build #8286 , third
from top).  On the "..." drop-down, you can grab "macOS:archive" which
should be an "app" with the fix in it.

cheers
Miller

On Sun, Dec 05, 2021 at 05:10:04PM +, Philip Stone via Pd-list wrote:
> Hi Iohannes,
> 
> What I called “visual flutter” does indeed sound like the github issue you 
> referenced – it is the scrollbars that are flashing when one transitions from 
> floating over an object to not floating over it.
> 
> I’ve never compiled Pd before, but maybe this is an opportunity to learn. If 
> I can figure it out, I’ll do it and report.
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 00:15:20 +0100
> From: IOhannes m zm?lnig 
> To: pd-list@lists.iem.at
> Subject: Re: [PD] 0.52.0test2: window jitter on (Mac OS)
> Message-ID: <38f6fbe3-3a3b-b5a9-6625-260a89311...@iem.at>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> 
> On 12/4/21 23:20, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > Howdy Phil,
> >
> > this may be related to a reported GOP performance problem with test2, so I 
> > copied your report to the issue on Github:
> 
> it might also be related to the scrollbar glitches reported in [1410]
> (it's kind of hard to tell what "visual flutter" really means here).
> 
> in any case, both issues ought to be fixed in current 'master' branch
> (no pre-release yet).
> @phil so if you are up to compiling you might give it a try...
> 
> gfmds
> IOhannes
> 
> [1410] 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata_issues_1410&d=DwIF-g&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=ioq7Ka00BM3zn1qhlJYaeymUbmoT1D7td0YpLJVzPRAxw9eW6JDM6q-Ht0dewD-e&s=W_UiSijTQKQVDgp7N8_8uBtGrlI51by-LGXOFQBQX4A&e=
>  
> 

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Re: [PD] '$0' in messages again, another proposal? (Was: Pd 0.52 test 2 is out)

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I think having a "message" object is a better idea.  Only thing is, it
does raise some interesting design questions of its own - like, what of
sending more than one message; how to specify destination names without
using the ';' separator, and what if we allowed expressions ...

cheers
Miller

On Wed, Dec 01, 2021 at 09:34:15PM +0100, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > what if we introduce double dollar syntax to grab patch arguments?
> Actually, I already thought about that. The problem is that "$" is only
> interpreted as a dollar or dollarsym if it is followed by a number. So
> currently "$$" is not a reserved token, meaning that "$$" is a valid symbol.
> We *could* reserve it, but we risk breaking some patches. Assuming that only
> very few patches will be affected by this change, we might decide that
> extending the functionality of message boxes is more important.
> 
> Christof
> 
> On 01.12.2021 21:22, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> > I like the idea.
> > 
> > Em qua., 1 de dez. de 2021 às 17:14, José de Abreu
> >  escreveu:
> > 
> > I have an idea about $0
> > 
> > what if we introduce double dollar syntax to grab patch arguments?
> > and then inside messages $$1 would be first abstraction argument,
> > while $1 is the the first element of the list (as it already is)
> > 
> > this way, $$0 in a message would be what $0 is for an object, $$1
> > would be what $1 is for an object, and so on (this would be coherent)
> > 
> > this way we add the ability to access $0 from an object as $$0 in
> > a message and as a bonus make easier to get the patch arguments
> > inside a message too.. this makes sense? what do you think?
> > 
> > Em qua., 1 de dez. de 2021 16:44, Alexandre Torres Porres
> >  escreveu:
> > 
> > Context: we have an open PR that allows us to expand '$0' in
> > messages. I'd like to know if it's been officially rejected so
> > we can close it for good and settle the debate. Then maybe
> > think of something else.
> > 
> > Miller's response:
> > 
> > Em sáb., 27 de nov. de 2021 às 21:29, Miller Puckette
> >  escreveu:
> > 
> > I disagree with the "$0" in message box idea.  Why not $1
> > then?
> > (Oh, because it already does something different...)
> > 
> > It would be interestnig to allow message boxes to access
> > canvas creation
> > arguments somehow, but not that way.
> > 
> > 
> > To which me and Christoph argued things like
> > - /$0 is not a creation argument after all, i.e. it is not
> > part of "ce_argv". Also, it really //has a different purpose.
> > (...) $0 would be a special case either way./
> > - /It was also never documented as an 'argument'. (...) under
> > a user perspective, we are never aware of it and really expect
> > to be able to use it inside message boxes so they can
> > communicate to local [receive] objects (..) We also have
> > unexpected and weird behaviour in other places. It's all a
> > matter of documenting./
> > Now, what I actually have come up as a solution for me, so
> > far, was designing an external object named "message". It does
> > all that messages do, they understand comma and semicolons
> > (and act accordingly). The messages can be set via a right
> > inlet (with commas and semicolons being possible by escaping
> > with "\") and the object also acts as a general message
> > storage object. So the idea is to have something like this
> > that acts like a message and is an object. Moreover, as an
> > object, it can also deal with "$1" ... "$2" ... ect as
> > expected, and as also has been considered here as something
> > desired.
> > 
> > If this idea resonates well, I can try and open a PR for it
> > and we can discuss the design details.
> > 
> > see screenshot of the object
> > 
> > cheers
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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Re: [PD] documenting messages to/from Pd and dynamic patching

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I think this is right.  "pd dsp 1" is definitely public, and "watchdog"
isn't.  Perhaps there should be two different destinations for the public
and non-public ones.  but it would be cruel to change that just to clean
the situation up, when people are probably using some things that I
would think are private.

cheers
M

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 01:59:41AM +0100, Christof Ressi wrote:
> I very much agree with your points.
> 
> > If we lump "user space" and "internal" messaging together in an open
> > manual, then they should be clearly delineated with special placed on
> > emphasizing what things are more or less stable and what things are not.
> > Then the user can decide how they want to proceed.
> As you say, it's better to document all of it and at the same time make it
> clear what is public and what is private. And figure out how to deal with
> the large gray area in between :-)
> 
> Christof
> 
> On 28.11.2021 00:37, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > Howdy all,
> > 
> > My feeling on this is:
> > 
> > 1. Recognize that, despite using "private" or "unstable" internal APIs,
> > people have been using/abusing them for years. (So far, I feel we have
> > been recognizing this by being careful not to break things, more or
> > less.)
> > 
> > 2. We should document all internal messaging, at least for the sake of
> > developer documentation. If we lump "user space" and "internal"
> > messaging together in an open manual, then they should be clearly
> > delineated with special placed on emphasizing what things are more or
> > less stable and what things are not. Then the user can decide how they
> > want to proceed. I don't see a problem if people want to play with the
> > internals on their own machine and crash Pd... that's half the fun for
> > such activities anyway (learning).
> > 
> > 3. We should get a poll of which internal messages are currently in use
> > and consider which of these could be moved into "user space" and/or
> > replaced by a better API. I believe this thread is already providing a
> > good list...
> > 
> > 4. Open a technical discussion on supporting "dynamic patching"
> > officially. It's clearly very useful even if clunky through the current
> > workarounds. Even with [clone] there are still many use cases...
> > 
> > > On Nov 28, 2021, at 12:25 AM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> > > 
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 20:20:49 +0100
> > > From: Jean-Yves Gratius 
> > > To:pd-list@lists.iem.at
> > > Subject: Re: [PD] documenting messages to/from Pd and dynamic patching
> > > Message-ID: 
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
> > > 
> > > On 27/11/2021 17:19,pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.atwrote:
> > > > ForwardedMessage.eml
> > > > 
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Re: [PD] documenting messages to/from Pd and dynamic patching
> > > > From:
> > > > Christof Ressi 
> > > > Date:
> > > > 27/11/2021 ? 17:01
> > > > 
> > > > To:
> > > > Pd-List 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Two examples that come to my mind:
> > > > 
> > > > 1) [iemguts/canvasselect] allows to (de)select objects simply by
> > > > index. No need to emulate mouse selection with "mouse" and "mouseup".
> > > > 
> > > > 2) canvases/objects can be moved around with [iemguts/canvasposition]
> > > > resp. [iemguts/canvasobjectposition]
> > > > 
> > > > Are there any other use cases for "mouse" and "mouseup"?
> > > > 
> > > Hi. My 2 cents
> > > 
> > > Personally, I use mouse and mouseup messages to forward multitouch
> > > events into the patch, received? from my multitouch linux laptop.
> > > 
> > > If those messages were blocked, all my multitouch ecosystem would be out
> > > of order :-) .
> > 
> > 
> > Dan Wilcox
> > @danomatika 
> >  >  >
> > danomatika.com 
> >  >  >
> > robotcowboy.com 
> >  >  >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> 

Re: [PD] Pd 0.52 test 2 is out

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I don't know which way to go on this one... I think it's a bad
idea to have a shortcut for "symbol" since it's more often hit
by accident than on purpose - and it confuses people who make them
thinking they're making floats.

cheers
M

On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 10:00:47PM +0100, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> On Tue, 2021-11-23 at 18:56 +0100, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > 
> >  I think *changing* existing shortcuts is a bad idea. So I think we
> > should leave the shortcuts as they were and use cmd+6 for the new
> > list atom. After all, a list atom is *not* a drop-in replacement for
> > a symbol atom (numbers and spaces are handled differently!)
> 
> +1 
> 
> Roman
> 



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Re: [PD] Pd 0.52 test 2 is out

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I disagree with the "$0" in message box idea.  Why not $1 then?
(Oh, because it already does something different...)

It would be interestnig to allow message boxes to access canvas creation
arguments somehow, but not that way.

Meanwhile I adopted the atan2 fix but then had to fix a compileer
error (old c compilers can't deal with declarations like "t_float f1"
that occur after non-declaration statements).  I'll leave the "bang~
inlet there - I think it doesn't need to be documented because it doesn't
do anything :)

M
On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 05:10:39PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> and now for things we also usually ask in response to test release
> announcements :)
> 
> I'm just curious on why this feature has been held for so long since it's
> been flagged for inclusion back in the 0.49 release (and now 0.52), it's
> the addition of "$0" for messages, seems like there's something still
> "wrong" with it? => 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata_pull_347&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=yYh90wIqeDL83KdeA6jkw0pNyOCdUq9FVRekJOxxRWBDzrzJKeEmYZSL_OiSmcxA&s=x93zC1BFVT7TE8ZN8zXWQSNS1MEYarpPa0VBs5mjaiE&e=
>   I ask
> because I've been improving the documentation of handling "$0" in Pd, and
> it'd be much easier with it.
> 
> I also got a couple of new PRs that promote quick/minor changes to code
> that I consider 'bug fixes' from a documentation point of view: 1) Get rid
> of useless [bang~] inlet 
> (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata_pull_1471&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=yYh90wIqeDL83KdeA6jkw0pNyOCdUq9FVRekJOxxRWBDzrzJKeEmYZSL_OiSmcxA&s=vgEmKum5EVTcHYKfxQ6HxQDnK1V6iS48U6geM7Ro3qM&e=
>  )
> cause I don't think it makes sense to document that it has no functionality
> (and this won't break any patches); 2) add bang method to [atan2] (
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata_pull_1465&d=DwIFaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=yYh90wIqeDL83KdeA6jkw0pNyOCdUq9FVRekJOxxRWBDzrzJKeEmYZSL_OiSmcxA&s=3fJvGQG9T3hJrlAbIS_k5HQ9lhyF3drdLGFozeNXr0w&e=
>  ), because all other
> similar math/binary operators do this and it's just harder and more
> confusing to document a special inconsistent case. This is specially needed
> now that I'm adding references subpatches with info on i/olets and methods.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Em ter., 23 de nov. de 2021 às 15:29, Antoine Rousseau 
> escreveu:
> 
> > leave the shortcuts as they were and use cmd+6 for the new list atom
> >>
> >
> > +1
> >
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> >  
> >

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Re: [PD] Pd 0.52 test 2 is out

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hmm.. I just finished fixing it to leave it turned off by default
(it bothers some people and pleases others, so the tiebreaker is to default
to previous behavior).

Meanwhile merging the no-select-text PR - I meant to do that
earlier but somehow missed it.

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 12:25:41AM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> ## Inactive Patch Coords
> 
> I think it should be on by default as I imagine more people could use it but 
> it should have a disable option somehow for those that don't. I might be 
> wrong in thinking that they are a minority though. Maybe there could be some 
> sort of experimental feature commanding flag that accepts strings ala:
> 
> pd -exp disable-inactive-patchcords
> 
> Internally, then new versions of Pd could update the matched strings and 
> ignore those which are either removed or upgraded to non-experimental status 
> in new versions.
> 
> ## Single-Select Drag & Resize Paper Cut
> 
> Also, here is a "paper-cut" bug fix that might be good to check out. I 
> updated the original PR in a new branch and did some testing. The behavior 
> appears to work fine and is an improvement, although I would admit to not 
> having noticed before. ;)
> 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pure-2Ddata_pull_1484&d=DwIFAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=deE9rBT780-hg7Js-ayUzl5Eer2-DcNKq_76A1o0159JI0T2BAWSvLTSl9XCBg8-&s=EOdL6lSZtgknqhrbORSPgP_ubKPWSMO1N9Zlq8UHW-A&e=
>   
>   >
> 
> > On Nov 27, 2021, at 11:36 PM, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> > 
> > ... I'm thinking now to leave it in but have it turned off by default -
> > that way it would be easy to add as a preference later.
> > 
> > M
> > 
> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 09:53:09PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> >> Oh and I forgot:
> >> 
> >> # Active Patch Cable Highlight
> >> 
> >> I think greying out the active patch cable is great. I agree with calls 
> >> for making this an option (on or off) in the GUI, but maybe this is 
> >> something best added to IOhannes' current work on updating the (tabbed) 
> >> preferences?
> >> 
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [PD] Pd 0.52 test 2 is out

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

... I'm thinking now to leave it in but have it turned off by default -
that way it would be easy to add as a preference later.

M

On Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 09:53:09PM +0100, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> Oh and I forgot:
> 
> # Active Patch Cable Highlight
> 
> I think greying out the active patch cable is great. I agree with calls for 
> making this an option (on or off) in the GUI, but maybe this is something 
> best added to IOhannes' current work on updating the (tabbed) preferences?
> 



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Re: [PD] Pd 0.52 test 2 is out

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Oops, fixed now, thanks.
On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 12:34:39AM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> hey, release notes says "libpd included as part of the Pd distribution.  A
> test libpd project is included in ../pd/libpdtest." but I can't find this.
> 
> Em qua., 24 de nov. de 2021 às 21:38, Lucas Cordiviola <
> lucard...@hotmail.com> escreveu:
> 
> >
> > On 11/24/2021 5:50 PM, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> > > # gatoms
> > >
> > > Has the selection behavior changed? I see the gatom which receives the
> > > current focus now highlights but defocus seems to be inconsistent, at
> > > least to me. I would think that clicking into the atom, editing with
> > > the keyboard, then pressing enter or escape would defocus, but it
> > > doesn't. Is this new behavior? This also makes the behavior different
> > > form that of the IEM GUIs.
> > >
> > > Also, it seems the focus highlight will stay if you double click to
> > > edit an atom which highlights the text, then click on another atom.
> >
> > @Dan,
> >
> > There were some latest changes on "develop". Please check on macOS.
> >
> >
> > :)
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >  
> >

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>  


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Re: [PD] Pd 0.52 test 2 is out

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I think my e-mails aren't making it to pd-announce for some reason.

Anyway, yes, 0.52-0 test 2 is out :)

Miller

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:20:16PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> Test it out. http://msp.ucsd.edu/software.html
> 
> 
> now, Miller, I haven't seen announcements from Pd-announce for the test
> versions as usual, how come?
> 
> 
> I have some issues I have to report, by the way.
> 
> 
> cheers

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Re: [PD] Pure Data FLOSS Manual has been renamed to Pd-extended FLOSS Manual (was Re: mickfuzz's Pure Data FLOSS Manual, a message on behalf of Pd's community)

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Thanks for this - I think lots of people were getting confused, thinking
Pd extended was Pd and then concluding the whole thing was unmaintained.

cheers
Miller

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 05:15:06PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> Hi folks, as I've been saying, I was able to get involved with FLOSS
> Manuals and edit the current available book. It has been now renamed to
> 'Pd-extended', which I think solves the issues and confusion it generated.
> I also edited the introduction to talk about Pura Data AND Pd-extended, say
> that Pd-extended has been abandoned and how the book is outdated but
> maintained for historical purposes. I also mention how many of its content
> can be applied into Pd Vanilla. We can think about how to improve this even
> more, but I consider the whole thing as settled.
> 
> Check the current book now: 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.flossmanuals.net_pd-2Dextended_-5Ffull_&d=DwIBaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=-nA3Rqv_Aq9m00c7qeXePpVutJ62iM-VyB-JNQgwu03_QiR5GkQ6qkQEPm1iBDOU&s=Y10FffbYeQPYaN9luJsSkYiN-EaDM151AfWn_xiMzfo&e=
>  
> 
> I already edited the link in puredata.info under 'books about Pd
>   >' considering both versions
> (french too).
> 
> I will now see what to do about the archived version, if it can be deleted
> or not...
> 
> If anyone still thinks the FLOSS platform is a great and wonderful resource
> and idea to write yet a new documentation based on the current Vanilla and
> the old FLOSS Manual in english and other languages, that's cool and great.
> We can also consider another platform for something like that instead of
> FLOSS. Let's just coordinate this.
> 
> Again, I invite people to collaborate and discuss Pd documentation related
> stuff in 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pddp&d=DwIBaQ&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=-nA3Rqv_Aq9m00c7qeXePpVutJ62iM-VyB-JNQgwu03_QiR5GkQ6qkQEPm1iBDOU&s=u-NuT7dqZsg__QRYMMD7XfMizE4WbIGXY7U0H0AneIU&e=
>  
> 
> Cheers

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Re: [PD] pdmax - broken pipe in macos?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

If by any chance you're using pd 0.52 (test version) then I think
it can crash when used as a subprocess (this should be fixed for the next
test release).  If you're using Pd 0.51-4 the problem is something else.

The "broken pipe" message means the subprocess died suddenly for some reason.
But I can't think of an easy way to figure out what killed it.

cheers
Miller

On Sat, Nov 06, 2021 at 08:45:28PM +0100, João Pais wrote:
> Hello list,
> 
> I have a max patch with pd inside through the pd~ object. But I'm getting
> the "broken pipe" error in some cases in a mac, such as:
> 
> - in a compiled standalone it usually works
> 
> - in the original patch it doesn't
> 
> - both patches were made in the same system, with the latest pdmax and pd
> versions were used. I'm not sure anymore which max version or macos system
> was used to compile the standalone, if that's important (it was either max 7
> or 8).
> 
> I don't have access to a mac myself, but the system where it was tested was
> a 11.6, with Max 8. It seems to me that in some systems it works, and in
> other it doesn't - but I don't have enough hard data to prove it.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Joao
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] GUI freezes on windows?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

OK, this should be fixed for the next test release (thanks Dan)

cheers
Miller

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 06:51:20AM -0300, Lucas Cordiviola wrote:
> Sorry it was a fast and bad answer.
> 
> There's a math that puts together: delay * samplerate / blocksize. :
> 
>     int nbufs = sys_schedadvance * as.a_srate / (blksize *100.);
> 
> Here "nbuf" gets a negative value (due to integer overflow) for delay 80
> blocksize 64. Of course its noticeable because it sounds horrible or "no
> sound" iirc.
> 
> It works fine if:
> 
>     int nbufs = (double)sys_schedadvance / 100. * as.a_srate / blksize;
> 
> 
> I can't remember exactly but a delay of 80 is 8 in sys_schedadvance
> iirc.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Mensaje telepatico asistido por maquinas.
> 
> On 11/16/2021 4:46 AM, Peter P. wrote:
> > * Lucas Cordiviola  [2021-11-16 00:04]:
> > > On 11/15/2021 6:00 AM, Peter P. wrote:
> > > > Does "not accurately" mean that the values are somewhat off,
> > > > or that the set values are not respected at all?
> > > 
> > > There's an undefined "integer overflow" in the variable that holds the
> > > processed value in the calculations of  "delay" with "block-size"
> > Thank you! I am still trying to understand how this becomes noticable to
> > the end user (see last question).
> > 
> > 
> > 
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Re: [PD] makefilename multiple substitutions

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 01:46:41AM +0100, Max wrote:
> OK, got it. It's not shaving off one % per depth, it actually removing every
> other % on each iteration, so the # of escaping symbols (%) grows
> exponentially.
> Maybe should lower my screen resolution to see the number of %% symbols
> more clearly.
> 
Hmm, well, Pd was originally developed for a 640x480 screen :)

M
> 
> On 15.11.21 01:22, Max wrote:
> > No the help patch is perfectly clear but it only works two depth levels
> > Pd version 0.52.0-test1
> > 
> > 
> > On 15.11.21 00:56, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > > You have to escape *each* "%" with a leading "%", so your format
> > > string should be "02d:%%02d:%02d"
> > > 
> > > The help patch actually shows this:
> > > 
> > > > "" becomes "%%" and so on
> > > Maybe the wording is not clear enough, though?
> > > 
> > > Christof
> > > 
> > > On 14.11.2021 23:55, Max wrote:
> > > > hi list,
> > > > 
> > > > The helpfile for makefilename has a subpatch "multiple
> > > > substitutions" in which it says:
> > > > 
> > > > You can connect two or more objects for multiple substitutions.
> > > > For that, you need to use a literal '%' to set the format string
> > > > of another makefilename object.
> > > > LITERAL %: You can format a string with a literal '%' if you
> > > > escape it with another '%' (where "%%" becomes "%", ""
> > > > becomes "%%" and so on)
> > > > 
> > > > however, just a depth of two substitutions is in the example. I
> > > > extended this to three and got the error:
> > > > 
> > > > makefilename: invalid format string '%%%02d:%%02d:%02d' (too
> > > > many format specifiers)
> > > > 
> > > > (Yes you guessed right, trying to generate SMPTE from milliseconds)
> > > > 
> > > > M.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ___
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> > > 
> > > 
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Re: [PD] Pd-list Digest, Vol 200, Issue 15

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

If by any chance you were using writesf~ or readsf~, you might have tripped
a concurrency problem that I think I circumvented in commit
8049fa849e9ac728251715feae4db3c369904400 .  The symptom was that the patch
kept running but the GUI quit updating after hitting a message box that set
off a writesf~.

cheers
Miller

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 03:38:43PM +, Philip Stone via Pd-list wrote:
> I cannot reproduce the behavior now, either. Very mysterious.
> 
> > I’m on Catalina (10.15.7). My patches seem to load mostly correctly, but 
> > one thing I notice immediately is that any object that flashes when you 
> > click it, like buttons or message boxes, stay stuck in the ‘flash’ color 
> > when clicked.
> 
> 
> for what it is worth, i do *not* see this behaviour on Catalina
> (10.15.1): both [bang( and [bng] flash and get back to normal.
> 
> gfsdmr
> IOhannes
> 

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Re: [PD] Nestable Dictionaries in Pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

The least-horrible way to learn about it is the "4.data.structures" tutorial
sequence.

But the whole idea of hierarchical data structures maps horribly to a
patch language - there needs to be a better way to access 'data' in Pd.

cheers
M

On Tue, Sep 07, 2021 at 08:23:58PM +0100, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
> There are plenty of examples indeed :)
> 
> I’ll give struct with text and arrays a fair fight, I find the doc especially 
> quite hard to follow for non-graphical usage but it might just be me.
> 
> 
> 
> > On 7 Sep 2021, at 19:23, João Pais  wrote:
> > 
> > Does the max documentation of flucoma has concrete examples of what you're 
> > looking for?
> > 
> > There is the purest_json library (which isn't vanilla), but maybe with some 
> > hacking it might be possible to read files. Not sure about writing, but my 
> > hacking isn't up to date with the current pd state.
> > 
> > 
> >> Thanks for the quick reply!
> >> 
> >> 2 use-cases.
> >> 
> >> 1- we can generate or retrieve a dataset's content to use natively in the 
> >> creative coding environment (Max Pd Sc) so that it integrates in other 
> >> workflows of data mangling and drawing. We already have in our dataset 
> >> object file support and single point entry and query but this allow batch 
> >> dump and load. The structure is:
> >> 
> >> {
> >>"cols" : 3,
> >>"data" :{
> >>"entry-0" : [ -0.06755, 0.44185, -0.33835 ],
> >>"entry-1" : [ -0.12305, -0.24085, 0.31295 ],
> >>"entry-2" : [ -0.0595, -0.2881, 0.0597 ]
> >>}
> >> 
> >> }
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 2- we can retrieve or set the state of a complex objects. Our object will 
> >> spit out its internal status ( for instance, a neural net) and we can use 
> >> the values of its parameters, like below. More interestingly, we can also 
> >> query its structure and use that information too.
> >> 
> >> {
> >>"layers" : [{
> >>"activation" : 3,
> >>"biases" : [ -3.076234734727154, 0.772760846709679 ],
> >>"cols" : 2,
> >>"rows" : 1,
> >>"weights" : [ [ 6.015551733036155, -1.826803841455323 ] 
> >> ]
> >>}
> >> ,  {
> >>"activation" : 3,
> >>"biases" : [ -0.490600074475542 ],
> >>"cols" : 1,
> >>"rows" : 2,
> >>"weights" : [ [ -3.115116035462417 ], [ 
> >> -3.969281643687132 ] ]
> >>}
> >> ]
> >> }
> >> 
> >> The key-value nesting is quite powerful for this type of open structure...
> >> 
> >>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 15:51, Christof Ressi  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Can you give an example of how the data is structured?
> >>> 
> >>> In which ways are users supposed to interact with the data?
> >>> 
> >>> Christof
> >>> 
> >>> On 07.09.2021 16:37, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
>  Dear all
>  
>  I am trying to find the most Pd-vanilla-way to interface with our 
>  Dataset object in the FluCoMa project. In Max and SuperCollider we use 
>  Dictionaries, which are nestable and queryable in powerful programmatic 
>  ways, working essentially like interfaces to JSON-like data structures.
>  
>  I’ve looked at [struct] but the [set] object does not allow to do 
>  symbols and (list of) floats, and [appends] seem to have the same 
>  limitations. In all cases, I’m not certain it is the best approach in 
>  any cases to create such a list in Pd...
>  
>  I wonder how people do it and if I am missing an obvious workflow, 
>  especially with nested structures.
>  
>  Any pointer (pun intended) welcome
>  
>  p
>  
>  
>  
>  
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] JACK affects UDP rate

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

There's also the "ring buffer" stuff in s_audio_paring.c - it's quite general
and well written.  Byte stream oriented.

cheers
M

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:46:43PM +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> (Sending again with correct subject line. :P)
> 
> Note, there is Peter's C atomics ringbuffer.c implementation from libpd now 
> in the Pd sources. It's limited to lengths of a multiple of  256 bytes I 
> believe but easy to use.
> 
> I have used it successfully in the iOS Audio Unit to handle differing input 
> and output buffer sizes due to sample rate conversion outside libpd.
> 
> > On Jul 25, 2021, at 12:00 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > If my analysis is correct (if not, please let me know!), I think the 
> > Jack backend should really adapt the lock-free FIFO from the Portaudio 
> > backend.
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [PD] JACK affects UDP rate

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Well, my first attempt to fix things added 5 msec tothe latency, hmm.


On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 10:05:35AM -0700, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> Yes.  Also, I beleive jacks' setup assumes that all its clients share
> the same latency (set via jack's buffer size and number of buffers) so
> if you want to mix high-and-lower latency operations you might need to
> add some to a Pd instance.
> 
> 'Git blame' is blaming almost the entire s_audio_jack file on me, although
> I'm sure someone else initially wrote it, probably Iohannes.  But the
> current state of the callback scheme is certainly all my fault.
> 
> I think it's best to tweak audio stuff as early as possible in the Pd
> dev cycle since it tends to need more shaking out than other components, so
> I'll put that at the head of the list for now.
> 
> cheers
> M
> 
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 04:19:43PM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > > The only advantages I see are:
> > 
> > Yesterday was a bit too late, so I forgot the most important advantage of
> > the "Delay" parameter: reduced overall latency!
> > 
> > Generally, in the polling scheduler, the total input latency is the hardware
> > buffer size + the "internal" buffer size. In contrast to the callback
> > scheduler, a larger hardware buffer size itself doesn't buy you anything -
> > it is really the internal buffer that gives you the extra leeway.
> > 
> > The polling scheduler in the Jack back end uses a simple double buffering
> > scheme where the size of the buffer has to be the same as the hardware
> > buffer size. As a consequence, you always end up with unnecessary extra
> > latency.
> > 
> > On the other hand, the Portaudio back end uses a true ring buffer whose size
> > is independent from the hardware buffer size. Usually, you would set the
> > hardware buffer size to the lowest possible stable value (ideally 64
> > samples) and only control the latency via the size of the ring buffer (=
> > "Delay").
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > If my analysis is correct (if not, please let me know!), I think the Jack
> > backend should really adapt the lock-free FIFO from the Portaudio backend.
> > 
> > Christof
> > 
> > On 24.07.2021 04:16, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > > Hmmm... in the jack backend there is no ring buffer. Jack just dumps a
> > > large buffer from the audio callback and notifies the Pd audio thread,
> > > which consumes the buffer in chunks of 64 samples.
> > > 
> > > I think you could just copy the port audio backend implementation with
> > > its lock-free ringbuffer. This would also solve the socket polling issue
> > > :-)
> > > 
> > > Maybe the "polling scheduler" part could even be moved out of
> > > "s_audio_pa.c" and shared with the jack backend.
> > > 
> > > ---
> > > 
> > > On the other hand, I've been wondering if the "Delay" parameter is
> > > actually necessary at all. As the Jack backend demonstrates, you can
> > > just as well use a larger hardware buffer size. The only advantages I
> > > see are:
> > > 
> > > * latency can be controlled at a finer granularity; hardware buffer
> > > sizes are usually power-of-2s, so there's no step between 11.6 ms (512
> > > samples) and 23.3 ms (1024 samples), for example.
> > > 
> > > * the latency can be set arbitrarily high while the hardware buffer size
> > > is limited (often 1024 samples)
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately, very few people actually seem to understand the
> > > difference between the "block size" (= hardware buffer size) and the
> > > "Delay" in Pd's audio settings and how they interact... But maybe that's
> > > just because of the lack of documentation. After all, I only understood
> > > it after reading the code :-)
> > > 
> > > Christof
> > > 
> > > On 24.07.2021 03:05, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > > > Aha.. I've been meaning to look at why jack doesn't respond to audio
> > > > latency
> > > > setting... I think it needs fooling with.
> > > > 
> > > > cheers
> > > > M
> > > > 
> > > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 01:01:43AM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > > > > Hi Miller,
> > > > > 
> > > > > > As I understand it, when Pd is idle (finishes a 64-sample
> > > > > > block and can't yet
> > > &

Re: [PD] JACK affects UDP rate

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Yes.  Also, I beleive jacks' setup assumes that all its clients share
the same latency (set via jack's buffer size and number of buffers) so
if you want to mix high-and-lower latency operations you might need to
add some to a Pd instance.

'Git blame' is blaming almost the entire s_audio_jack file on me, although
I'm sure someone else initially wrote it, probably Iohannes.  But the
current state of the callback scheme is certainly all my fault.

I think it's best to tweak audio stuff as early as possible in the Pd
dev cycle since it tends to need more shaking out than other components, so
I'll put that at the head of the list for now.

cheers
M

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 04:19:43PM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > The only advantages I see are:
> 
> Yesterday was a bit too late, so I forgot the most important advantage of
> the "Delay" parameter: reduced overall latency!
> 
> Generally, in the polling scheduler, the total input latency is the hardware
> buffer size + the "internal" buffer size. In contrast to the callback
> scheduler, a larger hardware buffer size itself doesn't buy you anything -
> it is really the internal buffer that gives you the extra leeway.
> 
> The polling scheduler in the Jack back end uses a simple double buffering
> scheme where the size of the buffer has to be the same as the hardware
> buffer size. As a consequence, you always end up with unnecessary extra
> latency.
> 
> On the other hand, the Portaudio back end uses a true ring buffer whose size
> is independent from the hardware buffer size. Usually, you would set the
> hardware buffer size to the lowest possible stable value (ideally 64
> samples) and only control the latency via the size of the ring buffer (=
> "Delay").
> 
> ---
> 
> If my analysis is correct (if not, please let me know!), I think the Jack
> backend should really adapt the lock-free FIFO from the Portaudio backend.
> 
> Christof
> 
> On 24.07.2021 04:16, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > Hmmm... in the jack backend there is no ring buffer. Jack just dumps a
> > large buffer from the audio callback and notifies the Pd audio thread,
> > which consumes the buffer in chunks of 64 samples.
> > 
> > I think you could just copy the port audio backend implementation with
> > its lock-free ringbuffer. This would also solve the socket polling issue
> > :-)
> > 
> > Maybe the "polling scheduler" part could even be moved out of
> > "s_audio_pa.c" and shared with the jack backend.
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > On the other hand, I've been wondering if the "Delay" parameter is
> > actually necessary at all. As the Jack backend demonstrates, you can
> > just as well use a larger hardware buffer size. The only advantages I
> > see are:
> > 
> > * latency can be controlled at a finer granularity; hardware buffer
> > sizes are usually power-of-2s, so there's no step between 11.6 ms (512
> > samples) and 23.3 ms (1024 samples), for example.
> > 
> > * the latency can be set arbitrarily high while the hardware buffer size
> > is limited (often 1024 samples)
> > 
> > Unfortunately, very few people actually seem to understand the
> > difference between the "block size" (= hardware buffer size) and the
> > "Delay" in Pd's audio settings and how they interact... But maybe that's
> > just because of the lack of documentation. After all, I only understood
> > it after reading the code :-)
> > 
> > Christof
> > 
> > On 24.07.2021 03:05, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > > Aha.. I've been meaning to look at why jack doesn't respond to audio
> > > latency
> > > setting... I think it needs fooling with.
> > > 
> > > cheers
> > > M
> > > 
> > > On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 01:01:43AM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > > > Hi Miller,
> > > > 
> > > > > As I understand it, when Pd is idle (finishes a 64-sample
> > > > > block and can't yet
> > > > > crunch the following one), then it goes back and re-checks
> > > > > for network or
> > > > > GUI input, and keeps doing that until either there isn't
> > > > > anything to read or
> > > > > else the next block becomes runnable.
> > > > AFAICT, that's true for pa_send_dacs(), but not for
> > > > jack_send_dacs(). The
> > > > former calls sys_microsleep() in a loop, so it will only
> > > > actually sleep if
> > > > there are no more sockets to read; the latter immediately blocks on a
> > > > condition variable if the buffer is not available.
> > > > 
> > > > > I need to add some sort of poll-it-again functionality to
> > > > > libpd but haven't
> > > > > figured out what shape it should take yet.
> > > > Since libpd manages the audio callback, the client can simply call
> > > > sys_pollgui() as often as they want/need. I don't think that you
> > > > actually
> > > > have to add anything. Maybe just add a more fitting alias, like
> > > > sys_poll()
> > > > or sys_pollsockets()? sys_pollgui() is really a misnomer...
> > > > 
> > > > Christof
> > > > 
> > > > > So this is a simple throttling
> > > > > mechanism.  (And it's not necessary to put this on another thread).
> > > > 

Re: [PD] JACK affects UDP rate

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Aha.. I've been meaning to look at why jack doesn't respond to audio latency
setting... I think it needs fooling with.

cheers
M

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 01:01:43AM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> Hi Miller,
> 
> > As I understand it, when Pd is idle (finishes a 64-sample block and can't 
> > yet
> > crunch the following one), then it goes back and re-checks for network or
> > GUI input, and keeps doing that until either there isn't anything to read or
> > else the next block becomes runnable.
> 
> AFAICT, that's true for pa_send_dacs(), but not for jack_send_dacs(). The
> former calls sys_microsleep() in a loop, so it will only actually sleep if
> there are no more sockets to read; the latter immediately blocks on a
> condition variable if the buffer is not available.
> 
> > I need to add some sort of poll-it-again functionality to libpd but haven't
> > figured out what shape it should take yet.
> Since libpd manages the audio callback, the client can simply call
> sys_pollgui() as often as they want/need. I don't think that you actually
> have to add anything. Maybe just add a more fitting alias, like sys_poll()
> or sys_pollsockets()? sys_pollgui() is really a misnomer...
> 
> Christof
> 
> > So this is a simple throttling
> > mechanism.  (And it's not necessary to put this on another thread).
> > 
> > However, in the context of libpd thre's no concept of "idle" and so in that
> > setup there's only one network read per block.
> > 
> > And yes, this can lead to delays since the Macintosh helpfully stores unread
> > packets until the reading process gets around to realding them.  I think 
> > that
> > also only happens in the context of libpd.
> > 
> > I need to add some sort of poll-it-again functionality to libpd but haven't
> > figured out what shape it should take yet.
> > 
> > Miller

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Re: [PD] JACK affects UDP rate

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:59:26PM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> On 23.07.2021 23:11, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 2021-07-23 at 21:52 +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > > When we overhauled the networking code, I noticed that the TCP and
> > > UDP functions would both read up to N bytes (where N is currently
> > > 4096) in a single recv() call. With TCP the buffer can contain
> > > several FUDI (or other) messages, but with UDP it would only contain
> > > a single packet. So UDP was effectively much more rate limited than
> > > TCP.
> > I think, it _does_ make sense to treat TCP and UDP differently. With
> > TCP, you probably want to consume only as much as you can eat at the
> > time while keeping the rest buffered for later. OTOH, it's questionable
> > whether "surplus" UDP packets should be stored for later. Rather - I
> > think - they should be simply discarded.
> 

As I understand it, when Pd is idle (finishes a 64-sample block and can't yet
crunch the following one), then it goes back and re-checks for network or
GUI input, and keeps doing that until either there isn't anything to read or
else the next block becomes runnable.  So this is a simple throttling
mechanism.  (And it's not necessary to put this on another thread).

However, in the context of libpd thre's no concept of "idle" and so in that
setup there's only one network read per block.

And yes, this can lead to delays since the Macintosh helpfully stores unread
packets until the reading process gets around to realding them.  I think that
also only happens in the context of libpd.

I need to add some sort of poll-it-again functionality to libpd but haven't
figured out what shape it should take yet.

Miller



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Re: [PD] Pd files on Linux: MIME type and (document) icons

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hi all -

This appears to be a PR to https://github.com/pure-data/pd-icon - but htere
seems to be confusion as to whether this should be part of pure data itself.
I think it wound be fine to have it in pure data - but I don't know if I should
just grab the files and stick them in pure-data or if that would cause trouble
somehow.

cheers
M

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 12:45:53AM +0200, Max wrote:
> Hi list,
> 
> Linux doesn't let you define that a file extension .pd shall be opened with
> pd-gui. Since .pd files are of the texfile MIME type, if you set them to be
> opened by pd-gui, also every double click on a text document will launch
> pd-gui.
> Instead, when you want .pd files to be opened with the pd-gui executable,
> you first need to register a new MIME type. This is done by installing an
> XML file of the freedesktop standard "shared-mime-info".
> 
> Albert Graef has made one for pd-l2ork/Purr Data, which you can find here:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pd-2Dl2ork_pd_blob_master_debuild_debian_sharedmimeinfo&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=il_dmfT94qf-ZLOj3ueauiJlID7Crc-Ip5cb2VGHkjU&s=8mViUHVAigSdzJroibHaOVTWPxmO-U-K12ixJsOmX3c&e=
> 
> I've adapted that to Pure Data:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_chairaudio_pd-2Dicon_blob_mime-2Dinstall_x-2Dpuredata.xml&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=il_dmfT94qf-ZLOj3ueauiJlID7Crc-Ip5cb2VGHkjU&s=qwj4LYl0gRG56bQQ-A9ABD96jYwu793PL0aKp37yFRc&e=
> 
> Dan Wilcox made this repository with icons for Pure Data: 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pd-2Dicon&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=il_dmfT94qf-ZLOj3ueauiJlID7Crc-Ip5cb2VGHkjU&s=EyTomXF2_ov_OCUyfIe5mWxe4pOGJoj1HTtFU3Osh_U&e=
> I have forked that and added a method to install the mime type
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_chairaudio_pd-2Dicon_tree_mime-2Dinstall&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=il_dmfT94qf-ZLOj3ueauiJlID7Crc-Ip5cb2VGHkjU&s=XU2icyaR8lOHdgdDdGBObn9gtZecKSlwH2nt3kUOS-A&e=
> 
> The command "make mime-register" will add the MIME type.
> It's adapted from what I found here: 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__stackoverflow.com_questions_30931_register-2Dfile-2Dextensions-2Dmime-2Dtypes-2Din-2Dlinux_31836-2331836&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=il_dmfT94qf-ZLOj3ueauiJlID7Crc-Ip5cb2VGHkjU&s=_onY9G82S2_tHrtizR2X4p8d5L11tJsFMOSX1-ocoCQ&e=
> 
> There are some comments on my pull request by IOhannes: 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_pure-2Ddata_pd-2Dicon_pull_6&d=DwICAg&c=-35OiAkTchMrZOngvJPOeA&r=XprZV3Fxus2L1LCw80hE4Q&m=il_dmfT94qf-ZLOj3ueauiJlID7Crc-Ip5cb2VGHkjU&s=uIyzesu51DVgsEuJnSlSLo2kfnROBq5FAxB6bRy142E&e=
> 
> Anyway, maybe someone more knowledgable can take over here, the goal is to
> include this to the Pd installation so that Pd documents on Linux have the
> Pd file icon and are opened by pd-gui by default.
> 
> m.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] sad news: RIP Martin Peach

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Martin made a huge contribution to electronic musicians everywhere - I'll
sorely miss his generous personality and his creative insights.

Miller

On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 11:51:47PM -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
> Sorry to bring this bad news and unfortunately I don't have much
> information. Derek Holzer posted on the facebook group the following "I
> just heard from one of his former students that Martin Peach has passed
> away. Rest In Power" and that is all I know.
> 
> In homage to him and his contribution to the community, I felt the need to
> make this announcement here, even though I did not know him or exchanged
> information with him directly.
> 
> Erin Gee, on the facebook group says "I loved him very much. He taught me
> everything I know about electronics. I feel the world is a little emptier
> knowing Martin is not with us anymore. Martin loved comets and outer space
> phenomena. The news of the new extremely large comet in recent days makes
> me think it is the cosmic resonance of his passing."

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Re: [PD] Ability to access error messages from patch

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

to scare people... more seriously, because I'd consider such a thing "meta"
(such as message back-tracing, which I also want to add someday)

I don't have a precise idea what I mean by "meta" here.

M


On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 11:38:52PM +0200, IOhannes m zm??lnig wrote:
> On 6/17/21 22:56, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > Well, how about just adding capabilities to the pdcontrol object.
> 
> i am wondering why you would put that into [pdcontrol] - and not, say, the
> [float] object.
> 
> 
> gfdgn
> IOhannes




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Re: [PD] Ability to access error messages from patch

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 12:54:40PM +0100, Claude Heiland-Allen wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> On 17/06/2021 12:25, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> ...
> > Pd is a data flow language and I thikn the per-canvas paradigm maps well
> > to the idea of data "passing through a danger zone" - which it can also
> > leave as well.
> ...
> > however, I do like oliver's idea of hooking up such a [catch]-like
> > object in the object-tree.
> ...
> 
> Both have their merits, I suppose the depth first flow version could benefit
> from another object to uninstall the error handler, making it able to
> emulate the per-canvas mechanism.
> 
> A feature like "(re-)throw error/exception to parent" could be useful in
> both cases; with top-level unhandled errors getting printed in the console.?
> And a "throw error to current exception handler" would be useful too.
> 
> This proliferation of objects makes me think that it could be useful to have
> an [error foo] set of objects, like [list].
> 
> 
> Something like this perhaps (swap outlet order if you like, doesn't bother
> me)
> 
> ?|
> [error begin? ]
> ?|?? ? ? ? ? |
> [foo]? recover from bar and baz errors (apart from error 42 from bar) as
> well as errors from foo
> ?|
> [error begin ?? ? ]
> ?| ?? |
> [bar] ?? ? ?? [route 42 ? ? ?  ]
> ?|?? ? ?? |??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ?? ? |
> [error end]? recover from bar error 42 ? ? [error throw]
> ?|
> [baz]
> ? |
> 
> 
> Claude

Well, how about just adding capabilities to the pdcontrol object.

What I'm imagining is:

[pdcontrol catch-printout [mask]] - send this a bang, and a bang comes out
the (left?) outlet.  This would catches whatever post(), warn(), error(),
etc, messages occur while handling the "bang" outlet and send it to the
printout-outlet.  The message coming out could be:

 

or if in "verbose" mode, it would be:

  

The error-name would be a symbol such as "open-failed".  If any of the
existing post(), warn(), error(), or pd_error() got called, this would just
be "print", "warning", or "error".  A new chocolate-flavored pd_erport_error()
would allow the reporting object to specify the error symbol.

A creation flag to pdcontrol would simply allow all messages to be output,
symbol table pollution notwithstanding, for those situations where you can't
get a Pd window or stderr (patches inside Camomile for example).

cheers
Miller



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Re: [PD] develop testing branch was: Find last error

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

hi all -

A counter-proposal; I want to get 0.52 out this summer.  Perhaps we should
prioritize which PRs to include in it and I'll just merge them into master.
Since it would be early int he cycle there would be plenty of time to work
out the kinks before finalizing the release.

I think these soundfile changes should be high on the list.  In general I feel
safest around patches that are localized to a small number of source files
and solve specific problems.

cheers
Miller



On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 12:11:34PM +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> Slightly off-topic:
> 
> IOhannes, et al should we consider making a develop-testing style branch for 
> integrating a number of PRs and the current develop branch for extended 
> testing? I'd also like to have my sound file update branch get more use and 
> it would then be an easier sell for Pd 0.52 etc...



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Re: [PD] Ability to access error messages from patch

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Here's another idea: a "catch" object that passes messages from inlet to 
outlet, but
then reports errors (somehow or other) only when those errors occur while 
forwarding
the message.

cheers
M

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 04:01:15PM +0200, oliver wrote:
> Christof Ressi wrote:
> > 
> > > i quite like the idea of having a canvas-scope for such an object.
> > Personally, I would rather prefer that if the error code would be simply
> > output by the same object that generated the error.
> 
> that can take a long time, even for vanilla objects ;-)
> 
> and there are so many 3rd party objects out there that would all need to be
> modified and re-released in order to fit these quite specific needs.
> 
> if it's not too big a project (IOhannes must decide), i think that such an
> object (like [canvaserror]) would do no harm to "everyday users" and would
> at least be very handy for those who have a need for it.
> 
> > 
> > > On 6/14/21 10:37 AM, Peter P. wrote:
> > > > Yes, that's a good idea, but what if there are two identical objects
> > > > on the same canvas?
> > > 
> > > i think that would be *your* problem.
> > > if you want to catch error messages from two instances of the same
> > > objectclass, just put them into separate canvases.
> > > simple as that.
> > I think Peter's concern is valid and it's actually another reason why I
> > wouldn't like such a design.
> 
> since it would be part of IEMGUTS (which i think is where it belongs to),
> people usually know what they let themselves in for and would design their
> patches accordingly. for example, there's no real need for more than one
> [soundfiler] or [text define] objects in a canvas...
> 
> > 
> > Here's another idea, which I don't really love, but which I would prefer
> > over your proposed [canvaserror]:
> > 
> > Method calls which can generate an error send the error code to a global
> > [errno] object and the user can query the current error state with a
> > bang. This would be similar to 'errno' in C.
> > 
> > If the user queries the errno immediately after the method call, Pd's
> > determinism guarantees that the error really belongs to that method
> > call. We would have to reserve a special value (e.g. "0") to mean "no
> > error".
> 
> sounds nice, too. but it wouldn't verbosely specify the type of error, like
> the console output, would it ?
> 
> just my 2c
> 
> best
> 
> oliver
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] UDP server with Pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

On Tue, Jun 08, 2021 at 05:44:39PM +0200, IOhannes m zm?lnig wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 8. Juni 2021 17:05:13 MESZ schrieb Miller Puckette via Pd-list 
> :
> >P.S. maybe 'sendto' would be clearer - 'to' could be misunderstood as
> >just setting
> >a return port/addr for a later 'send' (which I think would make
> >netreceive -u
> >unnecessarily stateful).
> 
> i think 'sendto' only makes sense as [sendto example.com 6000 10 20( 
> that is: specifying both target and data in a single message (as the name is 
> so close to 'send').
> I think this is what you want to do anyhow.
> 
> I wonder about efficiency though: each 'sendto' would trigger a host lookup, 
> which is probably cached by the OS, but even so might still be rather costy.
> 
> mfg.fsd.sgj
> IOhannes
> 
I think usually you'd use this for replying to incoming messages in which case 
you'd
already have the IP addr.  And if you do indeed have a hostname, I think it 
would be
unwise to cache the IP adress resolution in the application (it might change).

Yes, I was imagining "sendto" combining port, address, and message all in one.

cheers
M



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Re: [PD] UDP server with Pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

P.S. maybe 'sendto' would be clearer - 'to' could be misunderstood as just 
setting
a return port/addr for a later 'send' (which I think would make netreceive -u
unnecessarily stateful).

On Tue, Jun 08, 2021 at 08:01:30AM -0700, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> Yep, I was going to propose that too.  It would simplify my 'conniption' 
> objects
> a lot to have that possibility!
> 
> cheers
> M



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Re: [PD] UDP server with Pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Yep, I was going to propose that too.  It would simplify my 'conniption' objects
a lot to have that possibility!

cheers
M

On Tue, Jun 08, 2021 at 02:45:10PM +0200, Dan Wilcox wrote:
> With the Pd net object overhaul, pd is using sendto with UDP as suggested by 
> Christof as well, I believe.
> 
> I agree that it would be nice to change the "connect" metaphor with UDP and 
> [netsend -u]. Maybe one approach is to add another message such as your "to" 
> which only works for UDP while retaining current "connect" functionality to 
> not break patches.
> 
> > On Jun 7, 2021, at 11:00 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> > 
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 23:00:21 +0200
> > From: Christof Ressi  > >
> > To: Martin Peach mailto:chakekat...@gmail.com>>, 
> > Pd-List
> > mailto:pd-list@lists.iem.at>>
> > Subject: Re: [PD] UDP server with Pd
> > Message-ID:  > >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> > 
> > Great to hear!
> > 
> > On 07.06.2021 22:57, Martin Peach wrote:
> >> So I changed it to use sendto and it works a lot better. It receives
> >> from multiple clients while sending to any one.
> >> I added a [to ( message to set the destination, and removed the
> >> [connect( and [disconnect{ methods.
> >> Thanks Christof for the critique!.
> >> 
> >> Martin
> 
> 
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika 
>   >
> danomatika.com 
>   >
> robotcowboy.com 
>   >
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [PD] UDP server with Pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

One solution (which the conniption server/client and quacktrip both
use in somewhat different ways) is for a "netreceive" object to wait
for an incoming connection and then, once one arrives, immediately to close
its own listening port and for a "nestsend" in the same patch to open
a connection to the IP and port that the "netreceive" reported (via its
second outlet).  It's a bit complicated but gets the job done.

cheers
Miller

On Wed, Jun 02, 2021 at 12:06:28AM +0200, Christof Ressi wrote:
> > While we're at it, it seems [netreceive] (in TCP mode) can only send
> > back to all connected clients, but not to a specific one.
> Actually, a [sendto( message for [netreceive] would already allow you to
> build a fully functional UDP server in Pd vanilla.
> 
> BTW, there is a [udpserver] object in iemnet, but it's not really usable yet
> (it only allows to send messages to the last sender).
> 
> Christof
> 
> On 01.06.2021 22:55, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> > Hey all
> > 
> > I would like to open a datagram listening socket and be able to send
> > back to clients from which I received messages. It seems both [netsend
> > -u] and (obviously) [netreceive -u] actually can open a listening
> > socket. However, [netreceive -u] can't send anything back. While
> > [netsend -u] can send messages back, it doesn't show the source address
> > of the incoming packets. And using [netreceive -u] for receiving and
> > [netsend -u] for sending back doesn't work, because for the packets to
> > arrive at the client, they need to be sent from the same port that is
> > already occupied by [netreceive].
> > 
> > Yet, as long as I used TCP and iemnet, this was possible. However, as
> > far as I can tell, it's not possible with UDP, neither with iemnet nor
> > with Pd's built-in classes.
> > 
> > Is that something worth to make a feature request for?
> > 
> > While we're at it, it seems [netreceive] (in TCP mode) can only send
> > back to all connected clients, but not to a specific one.
> > 
> > Roman
> > 
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Re: [PD] data structure flickering

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

This is a long-standing problem... I've been putting off optimizing this
until I can get my head around some improvements I want to make first.

cheers
Miller

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 04:37:02PM +0200, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> Hi
> 
> When using "many" data structure scalars, all scalars seem to get
> redrawn on certain actions. I initially thought it happens when
> appending scalars, but it's appears simply appending a scalar doesn't
> trigger it. The time to redraw the scalars seems proportional to
> overall number of scalars. This redrawing doesn't seem to cause a CPU
> spike, but it creates visual glitches. 
> 
> I am curious to know what goes on behind the scene. Can this be avoided
> or maybe minimized?
> 
> This is a video showing the glitch:
> https://netpd.org/~roman/tmp/netpd_datastructure_glitch.mp4
> 
> 
> 
> Roman



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Re: [PD] Miller Puckette's scofo~ object

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Hi Vinicius -

I've never written it up because I've always thought it badly needs more
work.  Newest version is indeed 0.2.8.

cheers
Miller

On Tue, May 04, 2021 at 07:15:34PM -0300, Vinicius Cesar wrote:
> Hi, all
> 
> Does anyone know if there's some documentation about scofo~ object, that
> was implemented by Miller Puckette for score following in pdrp project? I
> didn't find anything about it.
> I would like to understand better how it works, and if there's a version
> newer than 0.2.8.
> I'm writing about some strategies of score following in my master work, and
> this would be very helpful.
> 
> Thanks!
> Vin??cius

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Re: [PD] compander-limiter from slop~-help.pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Ahhh, you noticed that "warm tube-compander" sound - producers pay top $ for
that :)

I think it's pretty easy to get lower distortion by making the response curve
exactly flat below maximum amplitude - I didn't do that in this application
thinking that the limiting is going to kick in often and so there will
often be distortion anyway... anyone who hits, say, 0.7 with any frequency is
also going to hit 0 sometimes, and that will be the loudest sound where the
distortion is also most noticeable.

It's possible to add a "blanking" interval like some analog solid-state
limiters did.  In digital, if you add "lookahead" (also known as "delay")
you can do much, much better without having to think too hard (that's what
Ableton's built-in compressor does; it won't do zero-delay at all).

For live applications I prefer to make them zero-delay, preferring some
inevitable distortion to adding delay.

all part of the Dark Art (tm:)

Miller

On Mon, May 03, 2021 at 09:14:42AM +0200, Peter P. wrote:
> * Miller Puckette via Pd-list  [2021-04-24 17:45]:
> > As far as I can tell limiter design is a dark art.  Here's one (that imposes
> > a hard limit just within the (-1, 1) range - I made this for "music101" 
> > where
> > I needed a hard limit and am assuming the input signal is a voice (so 
> > unlikely
> > to have extremely fast attacks)...
> 
> Thanks Miller, 
> it seems that this implementation causes harmonic distortion to a (200Hz
> in my case) sine wave scaled to less than 0dBFS [*~ 0.9].
> 
> best, P
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] 4-point interpolation changes timbre depending on sample rate

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I think this is a bit too application-specific to put in Pd vanilla...  but
anyway, I don't understand why you can't just run the entire waveguide
at 4x sample rate - am I missing something?

cheers
M

On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 02:06:11PM +0200, Max wrote:
> Hi Miller,
> 
> I think the oversampling workaround is great for cases like slow playback of
> a sound file, but I'm not sure how this would work in a waveguide, ans
> particularly our situation where we have different timbre depending on if
> the number of samples in the delay line is odd or even. Since we vary the
> delay time in ms it's kind of a gamble and inconsistent depending on
> samplerate.
> 
> Do you think delreadsinc~ could have a chance to be merged into vanilla and
> if so how?
> 
> I've outlined some ideas here:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/issues/1305__;!!Mih3wA!XMhJYxjhME5toHvcGQaK14n4LmNU0RlX-iYx637isdS8y31b1M1Q3joyLE6z$
> 
> 
> Max
> 
> 
> 
> On 28.04.21 18:14, Miller Puckette via Pd-list wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:56:58AM -0500, Charles Z Henry wrote:
> > My 2 cents...
> > 
> > The 4-point interpolation scheme gets radically better if the signal it's
> > used on is oversampled (error goes down asymptotically by 24 dB for each
> > doubling of sample rate) - so my own strategy is simply to 4x upsample
> > everything I send through tabread4~ or delread4~.  This moves the "problem"
> > to that of designing an upsampling filter, which is much easier than a 
> > general
> > interpolator.
> > 
> > cheers
> > Miller
> > 
> > > I read through the code in your d_delay.c for the delread_sinc 
> > > implementation.
> > > It's a 22-point interpolator--very high quality and it looks like a
> > > good implementation
> > > 
> > > The Hermite spline is the best 4-point cubic interpolator, but the
> > > point of those polynomial interpolators is just to be cheap, and good
> > > enough for regular usage.  It doesn't require a table, so it also
> > > doesn't need as much cache space
> > > 
> > > I don't think it's *the* optimal 4-point interpolator.  It's just the
> > > best cubic polynomial 4-point interpolator.  You could re-use your
> > > sinc interpolator code for other shorter interpolation kernels, ones
> > > that are better than cubics but more expensive to calculate.
> > > 
> > > At least for me, it's still an open mathematical problem that I've
> > > come back to, from time to time.  I started to wonder if I could
> > > expand the error terms in the truncated sinc spectrum in the form of
> > > 1/w, 1/w^2, 1/w^3,  and then cancel them out by polynomial
> > > correctors.  An alternative to windowing the sinc function, this could
> > > be a more precise way to set the rate of attenuation in the stop-band,
> > > while still retaining all the smoothness of the sinc shape.
> > > I get a break from teaching in about 3 weeks.  I'm looking at the math
> > > right now, and I don't think I can solve it quickly (or maybe at all).
> > > 
> > > How short does your sinc interpolator with Blackman-Harris window need
> > > to be when you start to get the timbre change effect?
> > > 
> > > Best,
> > > Chuck
> > > 
> > > On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 7:18 PM Max  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Interesting. I've included that in the test patch.
> > > > It exposes the same samplerate dependent timbre change. So far only the
> > > > Sinc function solves the issue.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On 25.04.21 23:15, Sebastian Shader wrote:
> > > > > I have a [vdhs~] object in my library that does hermite spline
> > > > > interpolation for a delay line (like tabread4c~).
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/sebshader/shadylib__;!!Mih3wA!X_0yWoTK9_e2FJ67U92nwUpVsf4J8D52RrtLxDbQec742PCPmHmQs5HJnxR0$
> > > > > (also on deken)
> > > > > 
> > > > > I had to re-make delread~ as delread4c~ because delread~s delay lines
> > > > > are not exposed in the .h files
> > > > > 
> > > > > -seb
> > > > > 
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Max 
> > > > > To: pd-list@lists.iem.at 
> > > > > Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2021 5:45 am
> > > > > Subject: [PD] 4-point interpolation changes timbre dependin

Re: [PD] 4-point interpolation changes timbre depending on sample rate

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:56:58AM -0500, Charles Z Henry wrote:
My 2 cents...

The 4-point interpolation scheme gets radically better if the signal it's
used on is oversampled (error goes down asymptotically by 24 dB for each
doubling of sample rate) - so my own strategy is simply to 4x upsample
everything I send through tabread4~ or delread4~.  This moves the "problem"
to that od designing an upsampling filter, which is much easier than a general
interpolator.

cheers
Miller

> I read through the code in your d_delay.c for the delread_sinc implementation.
> It's a 22-point interpolator--very high quality and it looks like a
> good implementation
> 
> The Hermite spline is the best 4-point cubic interpolator, but the
> point of those polynomial interpolators is just to be cheap, and good
> enough for regular usage.  It doesn't require a table, so it also
> doesn't need as much cache space
> 
> I don't think it's *the* optimal 4-point interpolator.  It's just the
> best cubic polynomial 4-point interpolator.  You could re-use your
> sinc interpolator code for other shorter interpolation kernels, ones
> that are better than cubics but more expensive to calculate.
> 
> At least for me, it's still an open mathematical problem that I've
> come back to, from time to time.  I started to wonder if I could
> expand the error terms in the truncated sinc spectrum in the form of
> 1/w, 1/w^2, 1/w^3,  and then cancel them out by polynomial
> correctors.  An alternative to windowing the sinc function, this could
> be a more precise way to set the rate of attenuation in the stop-band,
> while still retaining all the smoothness of the sinc shape.
> I get a break from teaching in about 3 weeks.  I'm looking at the math
> right now, and I don't think I can solve it quickly (or maybe at all).
> 
> How short does your sinc interpolator with Blackman-Harris window need
> to be when you start to get the timbre change effect?
> 
> Best,
> Chuck
> 
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 7:18 PM Max  wrote:
> >
> > Interesting. I've included that in the test patch.
> > It exposes the same samplerate dependent timbre change. So far only the
> > Sinc function solves the issue.
> >
> >
> > On 25.04.21 23:15, Sebastian Shader wrote:
> > > I have a [vdhs~] object in my library that does hermite spline
> > > interpolation for a delay line (like tabread4c~).
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/sebshader/shadylib__;!!Mih3wA!X_0yWoTK9_e2FJ67U92nwUpVsf4J8D52RrtLxDbQec742PCPmHmQs5HJnxR0$
> > >  
> > > (also on deken)
> > >
> > > I had to re-make delread~ as delread4c~ because delread~s delay lines
> > > are not exposed in the .h files
> > >
> > > -seb
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Max 
> > > To: pd-list@lists.iem.at 
> > > Sent: Sun, Apr 25, 2021 5:45 am
> > > Subject: [PD] 4-point interpolation changes timbre depending on sample 
> > > rate
> > >
> > > Hi list,
> > >
> > > the 4-point interpolation in tabread4~ has been a popular topic in the
> > > past, going back to at least 2008. [1]
> > >
> > > A similar issue is in delread4~. In fact a simple resonator changes its
> > > timbre quite drastically by just changing the sample rate of the audio
> > > interface. Attached is a test patch.
> > >
> > > The issue becomes audible when choosing an odd delay time and compare
> > > the result between an odd and an even sample rate (e.g. 44.1k vs. 48k).
> > >
> > > This is not good. In fact this is a serious defect. Imagine you want to
> > > market a product like a synth plugin (based on libpd) which sounds
> > > different depending on if the daw is opened in 44.1 or 48 kHz.
> > >
> > > Cyrille Henry has coded tabread4c~ with a four-point cubic interpolation
> > > in the nusmuk library, but there is no delread4c~ equivalent in nusmuk.
> > >
> > > Clemens Wegener has coded delreadsinc~ which implements a
> > > Whittaker???Shannon interpolation (Sinc function). This implementation
> > > does sounds consistent in any sample rate. It also sounds much better at
> > > very slow speeds inside a pitch shifter where delread4~ produces serious
> > > artefacts. The Sinc function requires a larger padding for the
> > > interpolation.
> > >
> > > There are a couple of questions regarding on how to contribute this to Pd.
> > > Vanilla objects are currently:
> > >
> > > delwrite~ = the sink
> > > delread~ = control rate tap
> > > delread4~ (vd~) = audio rate tap with a four-point interpolation
> > >
> > > 1. the code in delwrite~ isn't agnostic towards the interpolation since
> > > it already provides the padding for the 4 point interpolation
> > >
> > > 2. if we add more interpolation methods to delread / tabread, the
> > > cleanest way would be to just have one tap object and the interpolation
> > > can be changed by a message and argument to it. currently there are
> > > implementations for the miller 4pt, cubic 4pt and Sinc.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately delread4 already carries the 4 from 4-point interpolation
> > > in its name, so pr

Re: [PD] compander-limiter from slop~-help.pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

As far as I can tell limiter design is a dark art.  Here's one (that imposes
a hard limit just within the (-1, 1) range - I made this for "music101" where
I needed a hard limit and am assuming the input signal is a voice (so unlikely
to have extremely fast attacks)...

cheers
Miller



#N canvas 219 162 342 348 12;
#N canvas 125 146 761 589 limiter 0;
#X obj 61 108 inlet~;
#X obj 75 135 abs~;
#X obj 75 160 slop~ 0 0 5 0 1e+09;
#X obj 74 192 *~ 10.1;
#X obj 487 88 array define \$0-limit 1000;
#X obj 542 155 loadbang;
#X obj 542 180 t b b;
#X obj 542 205 1000;
#X obj 542 230 until;
#X obj 542 255 f;
#X obj 574 255 + 1;
#X obj 598 209 0;
#X obj 542 280 t f f;
#X obj 458 365 tabwrite \$0-limit;
#X obj 491 157 bng 15 250 50 0 empty empty empty 17 7 0 10 -262144
-1 -1;
#X obj 444 320 expr min(1 \, 10/(max(1 \, $f1)));
#X obj 74 217 tabread4~ \$0-limit;
#X obj 61 249 *~;
#X obj 61 276 outlet~;
#X obj 241 107 inlet~;
#X obj 255 134 abs~;
#X obj 255 159 slop~ 0 0 5 0 1e+09;
#X obj 254 191 *~ 10.1;
#X obj 254 216 tabread4~ \$0-limit;
#X obj 241 248 *~;
#X obj 241 275 outlet~;
#X connect 0 0 1 0;
#X connect 0 0 17 0;
#X connect 1 0 2 0;
#X connect 2 0 3 0;
#X connect 3 0 16 0;
#X connect 5 0 6 0;
#X connect 6 0 7 0;
#X connect 6 1 11 0;
#X connect 7 0 8 0;
#X connect 8 0 9 0;
#X connect 9 0 10 0;
#X connect 9 0 12 0;
#X connect 10 0 9 1;
#X connect 11 0 9 1;
#X connect 12 0 15 0;
#X connect 12 1 13 1;
#X connect 14 0 6 0;
#X connect 15 0 13 0;
#X connect 16 0 17 1;
#X connect 17 0 18 0;
#X connect 19 0 20 0;
#X connect 19 0 24 0;
#X connect 20 0 21 0;
#X connect 21 0 22 0;
#X connect 22 0 23 0;
#X connect 23 0 24 1;
#X connect 24 0 25 0;
#X restore 88 148 pd limiter;
#X f 11;

--

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 10:46:04AM +0200, Peter P. wrote:
> Hi list,
> 
> nice weather today, isn't it?
> 
> I am trying to understand the [pd compander-limiter] example from
> slop~'s help patch because I need a 0dBFS brickwall limiter as
> abstraction without externals.
> 
> When set to the "no change" parameters, the example will still saturate any
> signals hotter than 0dBFS.
> 
> I don't understand what the ratio parameter does,
> especially its unit and range. It is 100 for dynamic reduction and 200
> for expansion in the examples.
> 
> Furthermore the threshold parameter is 100 for "expansion" and
> "compression", but 60 for "noise gate"...
> 
> "Limit" does introduce audible saturation for signals above 0dBFS and I
> am wondering which paramters could prevent this. Lowering the speed
> parameter to values smaller than 50 improves this a bit. Is speed an
> inverse attack time parameter perhaps?
> 
> And I can't seem to make sense of the boost parameter.
> 
> Any hints are greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Quacktrip now launches with Pd

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

Looks like the 'installer' is badly messed up!  I'll see if I can figure
out what's wrong.

Meanwhile, it looks like you can fix it by renaming Program Files/Pd/ to
Program Files/Quacktrip and then re-installing Pd.

cheers
Miller

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 07:28:53PM -0400, Samuel Burt wrote:
> This is weird. I installed Quacktrip, today. Now, every time I start Pd it
> automatically opens Quacktrip. There's nothing in my Startup preferences.
> It suggested installing it to my Program Files/Pd/ folder so I let it. Was
> that a mistake?

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Re: [PD] Multiple audio outputs on a single-board computer ?

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

OTOH in this particular application you migth be able to run several
Pd processes, one for each audio device, and sync them using
netsend/netreceive.  (Me, I use the startech "7.1" interface that costs about
$25; the "1" is full bandwidth so it gives you 8 independent channels out.
But I haven't tried two of them on the same pi; I just used multiple pis
when I wanted to do a multichannel installation).

cheers
M

On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 01:22:07PM +0100, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
> On 3/17/21 9:34 AM, Antoine Villeret wrote:
> > you could even
> > think plugin 2 of them on the same board.
> 
> usually you do not want to do this.
> 
> you would have to synchronize the clocks of the two devices (unless you into
> glitch).
> devices that allow simple synchronisation would use something like
> wordclock. but that is typically in a different price segment)
> 
> gfdsmrtf
> IOhannes
> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Image from shader back to Gem

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

I think the question is - within a shader, can you 'snap' an image to
a texture so that it doesn't have to go back and forth between the
GPU and CPU?  I'm curious too... I guess there must be a way to do this...

cheers
Miller

On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 08:57:19PM +0100, IOhannes m zm??lnig wrote:
> On 2/14/21 8:17 PM, Csaba L??ng wrote:
> > What do you mean?
> > 
> > Too much?
> 
> 
> i think you have lost me.
> 
> you wrote:
> > Can it be this too (shader and Gem) somehow connected?
> 
> which i translated to:
> > Can I somehow run shaders in Gem?
> 
> to which i replied (in a rather brusque way) by mentioning the Gem-objects
> that allow you to load and execute shaders within Gem.
> 
> 
> 
> i don't know what "Too much?" would refer to.
> i'm not even sure whether my translation of your question about shaders and
> Gem is correct (actually, i'm pretty sure it is plain wrong)
> 
> actually, i'm quite confused about your entire reply on cyrille's [pix_snap]
> suggestion.
> relating [pix_snap] to manual correction and shaders to automatic correction
> just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> so you probably should re-phrase that part (or just ignore my answer
> completely).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fgmds
> IOhannes
> 
> 
> anyhow: i still agree with cyrille that the answer to your question "how to
> read back an image from a shader in Gem?" is: [pix_snap].
> but that answer (just as my snarky answer) assumes that you run the shader
> *within* Gem.
> 




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Re: [PD] [OT]Re: Preset management for Pd Vanilla

[Miller Puckette via Pd-list]

that's right - savestate just lets a patch add stuff to its parent
(calling) patch when the parent is saved, that is retrieved when reloaded
from a file.  I don't know of other meanings of "savestate" although the
name does (unfortunately) suggest that it's for object archiving ala
NeXTStep (and I think earlier from Smalltalk).

cheers
M

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 03:05:02AM +, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 21, 2021, 6:35:34 PM EST, cyrille henry 
>  wrote:  
>  > here we are :
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://xkcd.com/927/__;!!Mih3wA!R6uAxiWLBX_uU5Ci0LdXHpjrQ9nqMwFrdbZWOnVFuZoBOC0XTicG-OTEv7cY$
>  
> 
> This case seems more like the Lisp problem-- every single user has their own 
> non-standard, incompatible, and deeply personal solution to the problem.
> Also-- do I have it right that the only relevant native core class 
> "savestate" isn't about statesaving in its common parlance, but is instead a 
> callback hard-coded to the "save" event that writes a patch file to the 
> filesystem? That's what the guts looked like when I ported it to Purr Data, 
> but I haven't really used it yet.
> 
> -Jonathan
> 
> Le 21/01/2021 ?? 20:48, Antoine Rousseau a ??crit??:
> > You can also have a look to my "AutoPreset" system. It's available from 
> > deken. It's rather old, but that's what I use every day...
> > 
> > Le jeu. 21 janv. 2021 ?? 19:39, Alexandre Torres Porres  > > a ??crit??:
> > 
> >?? ?? Em qui., 21 de jan. de 2021 ??s 15:09, Alexandre Torres Porres 
> >mailto:por...@gmail.com>> escreveu:
> > 
> >?? ?? ?? ?? I??now included "import" and "export" functions so [savestate] 
> >can be used in conjunction
> > 
> > 
> >?? ?? Just making clear this design allows each instance to be saved with 
> >separate presets in a parent patch. Not that I find it crucial. I guess that 
> >2 sharing the same preset bank should be fine for most cases. So using a 
> >file to load and save inside the abstraction (as it was possible before) was 
> >kinda fine. So this is where I start to think I could be compromising my 
> >beloved "KISS" principle... but I was already thinking??import/export was 
> >nice to allow people to store these things in the patch rather than a file, 
> >so it's cool. It's versatile and still simple enough.
> > 
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