RE: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Bob W]

> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Paul Stenquist
> 
> I don't have much to hide, and as a journalist, I'm frequently exposed
> anyway, so I don't worry much about privacy.  Extreme concerns about
> privacy are a modern phenomenon in my opinion. There was a time when
> people sought close contact with others for protection. Too much
> privacy was dangerous.
> 

there is a world of difference between choosing close contact with others,
and having others following you without your knowledge or permission.

B

> Paul
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 7:15 PM, Gerrit Visser  wrote:
> 
> > Cell phone tracking is entirely all invasive. The police can request
> > from your provider, without your knowledge, all cell tower data for
> > months at a time plus all your CDR's. I have seen the clear-text
> > trouble tickets! An even bigger issue is that the processing of CDRs
> > and cell tower data is often sub contracted to another company who
> > does the billing. So now you have 2 companies and 2 sets of employees
> > that have access to your data. And all too often, in NA, the company
> > running the billing system is not US or Canadian. Given the
> propensity
> > for warrantless access laws, at least in NA, you have a major
> > opportunity to leak data. And of course open to abuse, you can
> imagine that less ethical groups might just have someone on the inside.
> >
> > If you watched the TED segment, you will know just how detailed that
> > view is. They tracked him on train, bus, etc.
> >
> > So, the benefit of e911 is rather offset by what you give up.
> >
> > Gerrit
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms
> > Sent: December 19, 2012 6:50 PM
> > To: pdml@pdml.net
> > Subject: Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...
> >
> > Right, cell phone tracking is not all pervasive nor always entirely
> evil.
> >
> > If I dial 911, I *want* them to know where I am ... just not enough
> > replace a telephone that already works.
> >
> > From: Paul Stenquist
> >> It would be good if someone kept track of where I am in case I
> forget.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >> On Dec 19, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Matthew Hunt  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Sessoms
> >>> 
> > wrote:
> >>>
>  How are they going to know where I am if I can barely get service
>  from one tower?
> >>>
> >>> At least conceivably, beamforming antenna arrays at the tower (for
> >>> azimuth), and round-trip signal delay (for the range).
> >
> >
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Re: PESO: Paper White

[David Mann]

On Dec 20, 2012, at 7:58 AM, Daniel J. Matyola  wrote:

> I've always had floaters, but sharp eyesight.  Now, I require glasses
> and that complicates things.
> 
> In Maui, I use different lenses than here.  I need my longest zoom for
> the whales, my widest for the landscapes, and I will try the macro for
> the flowers.

In your glasses or on your camera? ;)

I just had an eye test yesterday.  Wish I could get zoom specs.

Dave


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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[P. J. Alling]

Not quite yet, they're working on it though.

On 12/20/2012 12:06 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:
Do you really think, Peter that you and your property don't belong to 
your state? (notice that I am using word "you" and "your" a number of 
times on purpose)...




On 12/19/2012 10:01 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:

That's true communism, however every communist system bigger than a
shaker community that has been tried is actually a form of fascism,
whereby all property and all citizens belong to the state. The rest is
just window dressing.

On 12/19/2012 2:38 PM, Boris Liberman wrote:

The caveat here that if you're grown up enough you can agree to limit
some of your privacy by choosing to sign an agreement. Now if the
'good' that may come to you is attractive enough (e.g. you won't be
facebook-less outcast) you will sign it anyway. And since the state
has so much to gain from 'partnering' with facebook, they won't
interfere... And so you will soon enough arrive at things such as
instagram mishap.

By the way it occurs to me that if instagram really decided to be
truly communistic, it would say something like this - by uploading
your pics to us you give up all the rights - we can use them as we
please, but in return you can use pictures of any other user for any
purpose whatsoever. Of course that's not gonna happen, ever.


Sent with AquaMail for Android
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On December 19, 2012 3:08:21 PM John Sessoms 
wrote:

From: Doug Franklin
> On 2012-12-18 23:23, Tom C wrote:
>> In what way I ask. There's certainly much I don't know. Are you
>> referring to the concept of personal privacy or the state of 
personal

>> privacy (i.e. the ease with which it can be invaded and trampled
>> upon)? I understand privacy can be invaded in any number of 
ways, but

>> never in human history have major portions of populations, via
>> technology, enabled powers to clandestinely track them, including
>> their whereabouts, contacts, purchases, transactions, etc.
>
> If I understand the argument correctly, it's about expectation of
> privacy. The argument seems to go along the lines of how, outside
> fairly recent Western societies, privacy didn't really exist due to
the
> living conditions, to the extent that no one really thought much 
about

> it, much less agonized over whether it was a right, a privilege, a
> circumstance, or a symptom.

I would argue that it dates back at least into the 17th Century. The
writings of the Enlightenment philosophers & scientists clearly had
profound effect upon the founding fathers and are reflected in the
Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The right to privacy is implicit in the 3rd & 4th Amendments and to a
lesser extent in the 5th & 6th.

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Boris Liberman]

Privacy is a right, Paul. At least this is my view. Further IMO, privacy 
is a basic right. Presently, in order to get my privacy I have to 
descend some 50 years to the past - turn off my cell phone, disconnect 
my home from the internet and may be do few more things. I am not saying 
that's unacceptable, but that's how it is.


Modern human has been enslaved my modern technology and some people are 
already paying the price...


On 12/20/2012 2:52 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

I don't have much to hide, and as a journalist, I'm frequently
exposed  anyway, so I don't worry much about privacy.  Extreme
concerns about privacy are a modern phenomenon in my opinion. There
was a time when people sought close contact with others for
protection. Too much privacy was dangerous.

Paul



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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Boris Liberman]

Do you really think, Peter that you and your property don't belong to 
your state? (notice that I am using word "you" and "your" a number of 
times on purpose)...




On 12/19/2012 10:01 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:

That's true communism, however every communist system bigger than a
shaker community that has been tried is actually a form of fascism,
whereby all property and all citizens belong to the state. The rest is
just window dressing.

On 12/19/2012 2:38 PM, Boris Liberman wrote:

The caveat here that if you're grown up enough you can agree to limit
some of your privacy by choosing to sign an agreement. Now if the
'good' that may come to you is attractive enough (e.g. you won't be
facebook-less outcast) you will sign it anyway. And since the state
has so much to gain from 'partnering' with facebook, they won't
interfere... And so you will soon enough arrive at things such as
instagram mishap.

By the way it occurs to me that if instagram really decided to be
truly communistic, it would say something like this - by uploading
your pics to us you give up all the rights - we can use them as we
please, but in return you can use pictures of any other user for any
purpose whatsoever. Of course that's not gonna happen, ever.


Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On December 19, 2012 3:08:21 PM John Sessoms 
wrote:

From: Doug Franklin
> On 2012-12-18 23:23, Tom C wrote:
>> In what way I ask. There's certainly much I don't know. Are you
>> referring to the concept of personal privacy or the state of personal
>> privacy (i.e. the ease with which it can be invaded and trampled
>> upon)? I understand privacy can be invaded in any number of ways, but
>> never in human history have major portions of populations, via
>> technology, enabled powers to clandestinely track them, including
>> their whereabouts, contacts, purchases, transactions, etc.
>
> If I understand the argument correctly, it's about expectation of
> privacy. The argument seems to go along the lines of how, outside
> fairly recent Western societies, privacy didn't really exist due to
the
> living conditions, to the extent that no one really thought much about
> it, much less agonized over whether it was a right, a privilege, a
> circumstance, or a symptom.

I would argue that it dates back at least into the 17th Century. The
writings of the Enlightenment philosophers & scientists clearly had
profound effect upon the founding fathers and are reflected in the
Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The right to privacy is implicit in the 3rd & 4th Amendments and to a
lesser extent in the 5th & 6th.

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Boris Liberman]

I'm with you on this one, Bob. If it does not from frontal attack the 
best way to proceed is to retreat and apply the "frog in the hot water" 
tactic...


On 12/19/2012 5:00 AM, Bob W wrote:

this whole thing feels to me like a deliberately storm-provoking opening
move. They will came back soom with something else that's only slightly less
outrageous, and everyone will breathe a sigh of relief because it's not as
bad as it could have been, and 'we have listened to our customers'. They
will then bit by bit start nibbling away at it until they've got what they
wanted in the first place.

It's a very common ploy used by politicians, property developers and other
greasy bastards. A couple of years ago there was a plan put forward here to
build some collosal tower blocks at the end of the street, right by the
river, spoiling a world famous view. Of course there was a storm of protest;
the developers 'listened to local residents', and got permission to build
stuff that would probably have been rejected if they had proposed it first
time round. A few months ago, building halted 'due to the downturn', but has
recently been restarted but they have proposed a change to the plans which
almost reinstates what they originally asked to do.

It becomes a war of attrition as these greedy bastards do their damndest to
fuck the ordinary people every which way in pursuit of their filthy lucre.

'Monetize'. Whoever thought that one up should be buried up to his chin in
concrete and his mouth used as a public toilet. At 20p a time, to monetize
it.

B





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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Boris Liberman]

On 12/19/2012 5:51 AM, Doug Franklin wrote:

I've seen a commentary or two lately that claim, with some historical
backing, that personal privacy was an aberration of Western society in
the 19th and 20th centuries, as compared to the rest of human history.


That is totally fascinating... Indeed people are willingly and en-masse 
join the social networks only in order to tell the world what was the 
color of their morning lipstick or the shape of the cloud on top of 
their house sometimes getting pretty much exhibitionistic about 
themselves. Then, after quite some time they would notice that they've 
been telling too much to too many people. So you may have a point here - 
the human nature is to boast first and to think later...





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Re: A little gloat...

[Michael Beacom]

Good show! It calls for an affectionate "You Suck!" (at least they mostly 
seemed affectionate)
But you had me wondering about a gloat for a kit lens. Then I finished your 
post.

It looks to me like its job is as much an autofocus adapter, as a 
teleconverter. Didn't Pentax make a similar item? 

Any tips on how to get one, and which one works better?

Thanks
Mike



From: Darren Addy
>> I'm on an Old Workworking Tools mail list and when someone finds
>> something especially good/rare and/or cheap they like to post about it
>> and they call those posts "gloats". There are two kinds of people in
>> the world, those that are jealous of others good fortune and those who
>> are happy for another's good fortune. I've made a conscious decision
>> to be the latter.
>> 
>> Anyway, here's my gloat for the week. I found a DA 18-55mm II lens
>> with hood & caps for $90
>> http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-DA-18-55mm-F3.5-5.6-II-Version-2-Zoom-Lens.html
>> but that of course is not the gloat. The gloat is for what was
>> attached to it (included), a Tamron-F Pz-AF MC4 1.4x teleconverter.
>> http://www.techtheman.com/2008/07/tamron-14x-pz-af-mc4-teleconverter.html
>> 
>> Yay for me!

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Re: GESO - tango @ ISO-6400

[Boris Liberman]

On 12/17/2012 10:49 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

By the way, rather than naming the files on the camera K5_B and K5_G,
I'd suggest K5B_ and K5G_, because if for some reason you shoot in
some other format (DNG etc) the files will end up named _K5_ and
_K5_


I don't meddle with the naming in the camera, Larry. I've set "image 
owner" (or whatever is the option) on both K-5's to respective names of 
the shooters and the renaming is done after I copy images onto my 
computer but before I import them to LR. I know it is not the most 
optimal way, but it's been working for me since like 2007 or 2008 when 
Galia got her first DSLR...


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Re: Peso The Winter Farm

[Boris Liberman]

It most certainly works for me, Don.

On 12/17/2012 11:05 PM, Don Guthrie wrote:

The weather has been grey & gloomy but I could not wait for decent
clouds and this is just what Iowa looks like without some Winter snow.

Comments & Critique always welcomed.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/valdon/8282416548/in/photostream/lightbox/




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Re: Sometimes you just *have* to color-correct your images…

[Boris Liberman]

On 12/17/2012 9:33 PM, Charles Robinson wrote:

Pretty straightforward.

1. Shot in RAW
2. Pulled up image in LR
3. Changed WB from "As Shot" to "AUTO" and noticed it still wasn't quite right.
4. Grabbed the "Temp" slider and pushed it to the right until my skin looked 
normal.

Final settings: Temp: 16467, Tint +10.  I don't think I've EVER pushed the temp 
slider that far over to the yellow side before.

Took about… I'd say about 30 seconds at most.

  -Charles


Thanks. Oddly enough I did have a feeling when I looked at the 
uncorrected and then the corrected image that the correction should have 
been pretty severe. It turns out I wasn't wrong ;-).


Thanks!


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Re: GESO - tango @ ISO-6400

[Boris Liberman]

I suppose I should offer Igor my apology for totally hijacking his thread...

I did not want the comparison between the PESO and this image to ensue. 
This image was the "initial" "calibration" shot - I took as it were and 
then eventually zeroed on both on the exposure and on the desired 
impression.


I merely wanted to show that at ISO 25600 K-5 is extremely good even if 
it is dark outdoors.


On 12/18/2012 10:32 PM, Larry Colen wrote:


On Dec 18, 2012, at 8:42 AM, John Sessoms wrote:


Boris' "#57" from his "Two low light PESOs" post

#57 -  http://pentax-ways.blogspot.com/2012/12/peso-2012-57-night.html


Yes, the original is much better than the reworked original.  I think it 
succeeds in large part from what it hides.

You could bring out a little bit more color and detail in the sky, but not so 
much that it looks like daylight.



I don't know how he got it tangled up with Igor's GESO.

From: Bob Sullivan

John,  Where is the original?  Bob S.

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 2:35 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:

From: Boris Liberman


Slightly re-edited my ISO 25600 photo:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/borispdml/8280936117/



The original edit is superior.


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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Paul Stenquist]

I don't have much to hide, and as a journalist, I'm frequently exposed  anyway, 
so I don't worry much about privacy.  Extreme concerns about privacy are a 
modern phenomenon in my opinion. There was a time when people sought close 
contact with others for protection. Too much privacy was dangerous.

Paul
On Dec 19, 2012, at 7:15 PM, Gerrit Visser  wrote:

> Cell phone tracking is entirely all invasive. The police can request from
> your provider, without your knowledge, all cell tower data for months at a
> time plus all your CDR's. I have seen the clear-text trouble tickets! An
> even bigger issue is that the processing of CDRs and cell tower data is
> often sub contracted to another company who does the billing. So now you
> have 2 companies and 2 sets of employees that have access to your data. And
> all too often, in NA, the company running the billing system is not US or
> Canadian. Given the propensity for warrantless access laws, at least in NA,
> you have a major opportunity to leak data. And of course open to abuse, you
> can imagine that less ethical groups might just have someone on the inside.
> 
> If you watched the TED segment, you will know just how detailed that view
> is. They tracked him on train, bus, etc.
> 
> So, the benefit of e911 is rather offset by what you give up.
> 
> Gerrit
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms
> Sent: December 19, 2012 6:50 PM
> To: pdml@pdml.net
> Subject: Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...
> 
> Right, cell phone tracking is not all pervasive nor always entirely evil.
> 
> If I dial 911, I *want* them to know where I am ... just not enough replace
> a telephone that already works.
> 
> From: Paul Stenquist
>> It would be good if someone kept track of where I am in case I forget.
>> 
>> Paul
>> On Dec 19, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Matthew Hunt  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Sessoms 
> wrote:
>>> 
 How are they going to know where I am if I can barely get service 
 from one tower?
>>> 
>>> At least conceivably, beamforming antenna arrays at the tower (for 
>>> azimuth), and round-trip signal delay (for the range).
> 
> 
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RE: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Gerrit Visser]

Cell phone tracking is entirely all invasive. The police can request from
your provider, without your knowledge, all cell tower data for months at a
time plus all your CDR's. I have seen the clear-text trouble tickets! An
even bigger issue is that the processing of CDRs and cell tower data is
often sub contracted to another company who does the billing. So now you
have 2 companies and 2 sets of employees that have access to your data. And
all too often, in NA, the company running the billing system is not US or
Canadian. Given the propensity for warrantless access laws, at least in NA,
you have a major opportunity to leak data. And of course open to abuse, you
can imagine that less ethical groups might just have someone on the inside.

If you watched the TED segment, you will know just how detailed that view
is. They tracked him on train, bus, etc.

So, the benefit of e911 is rather offset by what you give up.

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms
Sent: December 19, 2012 6:50 PM
To: pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

Right, cell phone tracking is not all pervasive nor always entirely evil.

If I dial 911, I *want* them to know where I am ... just not enough replace
a telephone that already works.

From: Paul Stenquist
> It would be good if someone kept track of where I am in case I forget.
>
> Paul
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Matthew Hunt  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Sessoms 
wrote:
>>
>>> How are they going to know where I am if I can barely get service 
>>> from one tower?
>>
>> At least conceivably, beamforming antenna arrays at the tower (for 
>> azimuth), and round-trip signal delay (for the range).


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Re: A little gloat...

[John Sessoms]

From: Darren Addy

I'm on an Old Workworking Tools mail list and when someone finds
something especially good/rare and/or cheap they like to post about it
and they call those posts "gloats". There are two kinds of people in
the world, those that are jealous of others good fortune and those who
are happy for another's good fortune. I've made a conscious decision
to be the latter.

Anyway, here's my gloat for the week. I found a DA 18-55mm II lens
with hood & caps for $90
http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-DA-18-55mm-F3.5-5.6-II-Version-2-Zoom-Lens.html
but that of course is not the gloat. The gloat is for what was
attached to it (included), a Tamron-F Pz-AF MC4 1.4x teleconverter.
http://www.techtheman.com/2008/07/tamron-14x-pz-af-mc4-teleconverter.html

Yay for me!


Well, good for you if the quality of yours turns out to be that good. 
The example I have is not.


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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[John Sessoms]

Right, cell phone tracking is not all pervasive nor always entirely evil.

If I dial 911, I *want* them to know where I am ... just not enough
replace a telephone that already works.

From: Paul Stenquist

It would be good if someone kept track of where I am in case I forget.

Paul
On Dec 19, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Matthew Hunt  wrote:


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:


How are they going to know where I am if I can barely get service from one
tower?


At least conceivably, beamforming antenna arrays at the tower (for
azimuth), and round-trip signal delay (for the range).



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Re: OT - Football pics

[Paul Stenquist]

Excellent work! Kudos to the young shooter!
Paul
On Dec 19, 2012, at 8:20 AM, John Sessoms  wrote:

> Wow! The stands are so crowded you'd think it was a game here in the states.
> 
> Third one down where they chop off the tops of the player's heads is
> cropped too much. But, it's good that he's getting practical experience.
> 
> From: "Steve Cottrell"
>> Filmed a football match last night at Oxford - FA Cup 3rd round replay
>> between Oxford United and Accrington Stanley (yes that is the name of
>> the team, from a small rainy place up north somewhere!!!) and Stef came
>> along. Managed to smuggle him in through the press entrance and Chris
>> the press relations bod for Oxford okay'd him going pitchside. There was
>> a newspaper snapper I know and so he looked after the lad and Stef
>> managed some decent shots which they published on the ITV website this
>> morning. The cropping is slightly severe - his shots were a bit looser -
>> I think they must fit into a template and the web people don't take much
>> care perhaps...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Stef's kit now is a 1DmIIn, 17-40/4, 28-135/3.5 and a 70-200/4 plus a
>> 420EX flash. Tripod, monopod and some bits. He's on a gap year before
>> going to a London Uni to study Digital Photography.
>> 
>> #proudfather
>> 
> 
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Re: A little gloat...

[Paul Sorenson]

The gloat is for what was attached to it (included), a Tamron-F Pz-AF 
MC4 1.4x teleconverter.



On 12/19/2012 5:24 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote:

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 6:22 PM, P. J. Alling
 wrote:


Sorry, I misread, I was looking for the little goat. Carry on.


Stop kidding around.



Ewe should be pleased with your prize.
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Re: A little gloat...

[Steve Cottrell]

>> Sorry, I misread, I was looking for the little goat. Carry on.
>
>Stop kidding around.

I wasn't sure wether you were serious.


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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[John Sessoms]

From: Boris Liberman

John, I am sorry to burst your bubble, but if you look deep enough at
any modern bureaucratic society, you will inevitably find certain signs
of what you said in the quote below...



No bubble. That's where I was headed anyway ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q



On December 19, 2012 8:49:10 AM John Sessoms  wrote:

From: Doug Franklin

On 2012-12-18 22:17, John Sessoms wrote:

The essential difference between Fascism & Communism is that under
Fascism the government tells the people what to do and under Communism
the people are told what to do by the government.


I've long been under the impression that, at least as practiced by the
Germans and Italians in the 1920s-1940s, the difference was that fascism
was based on (allegedly) "what's good for the peasant folk" versus
communism's (allegedly) "what's good for everyone", in both cases, as
judged by "the powers that be".


Soviet style Marxist-Leninist communism was "what's good for the
proletariat" - supposedly the workers.

Russia had several different flavors of "communists" after the revolution.
Eventually the Bolsheviks won out and killed off all the others.

In action, both systems created a new governing class made up of the
party faithful to serve the interests of the peasant-folk/workers. And
for some reason the interests of the peasant-folk/workers was almost
always what most benefited the new governing class.

Whatever the differences in the guiding philosophical principles of
Fascism & Communism, when viewed from the lower social strata looking
up, they appear remarkably similar.



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Re: PESO: Vase

[Daniel J. Matyola]

Thanks, Bruce.  I think it's one of the better macros I've shot so far.
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 6:08 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> That's pretty cool, Dan. Makes for a rather abstract 1950's-looking
> image, and well composed I think.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Daniel J. Matyola  
> wrote:
>> This abstract is a macro image of a small portion of a hand made, hand
>>  painted vase from Slovakia that I purchased at an International fair.
>>  The detail shown is a portion of a small flower painted on the vase.
>> Since the surface was curved, I stopped down the lens a bit from f/2.8
>> to f/6.0.
>>
>> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670442
>>
>> Comments, suggestions, questions and criticisms are all welcome.
>>
>> Dan Matyola
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>
>> --
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>
>
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Re: A little gloat...

[Matthew Hunt]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 6:22 PM, P. J. Alling
 wrote:

> Sorry, I misread, I was looking for the little goat. Carry on.

Stop kidding around.

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Re: A little gloat...

[P. J. Alling]

Sorry, I misread, I was looking for the little goat. Carry on.

On 12/19/2012 4:28 PM, Darren Addy wrote:

I'm on an Old Workworking Tools mail list and when someone finds
something especially good/rare and/or cheap they like to post about it
and they call those posts "gloats". There are two kinds of people in
the world, those that are jealous of others good fortune and those who
are happy for another's good fortune. I've made a conscious decision
to be the latter.

Anyway, here's my gloat for the week. I found a DA 18-55mm II lens
with hood & caps for $90
http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-DA-18-55mm-F3.5-5.6-II-Version-2-Zoom-Lens.html
but that of course is not the gloat. The gloat is for what was
attached to it (included), a Tamron-F Pz-AF MC4 1.4x teleconverter.
http://www.techtheman.com/2008/07/tamron-14x-pz-af-mc4-teleconverter.html

Yay for me!




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Re: Paper White

[Bruce Walker]

Have you got any brighter indoor lights, like halogen spots? You can
use a sheet of white paper as a diffuser. You can also use really long
shutter times to let you get a small aperture and low ISOs.


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Daniel J. Matyola  wrote:
> I did miss the focus.  It is also taken at 3200 ISO, which doesn't
> help.  Still there is something I like about the image.
>
> As to the light, this was taken indoors, at night, with artificial
> lighting.  I just am not able to get outside during the daylight
> hours.  If the weather is decent this weekend, I may take the flowers
> and the tripod outside to see what I can do under better conditions.
>
> Dan Matyola
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 2:55 PM,   wrote:
>> A good subject, but the image appears way soft all over like you may have
>> missed the focus.
>>
>> I would have used a diffuser to help soften the light.
>>
>> Kenneth Waller
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Daniel J. Matyola"
>> 
>> Subject: PESO: Paper White
>>
>>
>>> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670443
>>>
>>> Comments and criticisms always welcome.
>>>
>>> Dan Matyola
>>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: PESO: Vase

[Bruce Walker]

That's pretty cool, Dan. Makes for a rather abstract 1950's-looking
image, and well composed I think.


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Daniel J. Matyola  wrote:
> This abstract is a macro image of a small portion of a hand made, hand
>  painted vase from Slovakia that I purchased at an International fair.
>  The detail shown is a portion of a small flower painted on the vase.
> Since the surface was curved, I stopped down the lens a bit from f/2.8
> to f/6.0.
>
> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670442
>
> Comments, suggestions, questions and criticisms are all welcome.
>
> Dan Matyola
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
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> the directions.



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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Bruce Walker]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Bruce Walker wrote:
>
>> That's a really sweet image of the couple. Your timing was excellent.
>>
>> I can't help thinking that it should be less exposed though. I mean,
>> if that scene was as dark as you and the EXIF say, then I expect it to
>> look dark rather than looking almost like it was taken in daylight
>> with a noisy P&S. What's that saying that's making the rounds lately?
>> "Light reveals, shadow defines." At the very least vignetting the
>> subject by darkening the background around them would help.
>
> OK, I gave your suggestion a try.  My goal was a photo of the couple, not so 
> much a photo of a dark room, but here is a darker version:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellarsee/8289056058/in/set-72157632279369283/

That's good, though I'd dodge the couple's faces and hands to lighten
them a little (1/3rd stop or so).


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Re: A little gloat...

[steve harley]

on 2012-12-19 14:28 Darren Addy wrote

but that of course is not the gloat. The gloat is for what was
attached to it (included), a Tamron-F Pz-AF MC4 1.4x teleconverter.


my gloat would be a Pentax Spotmeter V in fine condition with cap & case; it is 
a Hycam version (dial has been swapped for one designed for Redlake movie 
cameras), but that doesn't alter its functionality; but it's only a passing 
gloat as i don't really need it — does anyone here?




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Re: OT: Wierd Photo Researdh

[Brian Walters]

That beard trimmer is cool.

I could use that...


Cheers

Brian

++
Brian Walters
Western Sydney Australia
http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/


Quoting "Daniel J. Matyola" :


http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/photobooth/2012/12/the-weirdest-photo-research-of-2012.html#slide_ss_0=1

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola




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Re: A little gloat...

[Brian Walters]

Well gloated!


Cheers

Brian

++
Brian Walters
Western Sydney Australia
http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/


Quoting Darren Addy :


I'm on an Old Workworking Tools mail list and when someone finds
something especially good/rare and/or cheap they like to post about it
and they call those posts "gloats". There are two kinds of people in
the world, those that are jealous of others good fortune and those who
are happy for another's good fortune. I've made a conscious decision
to be the latter.

Anyway, here's my gloat for the week. I found a DA 18-55mm II lens
with hood & caps for $90
http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-DA-18-55mm-F3.5-5.6-II-Version-2-Zoom-Lens.html
but that of course is not the gloat. The gloat is for what was
attached to it (included), a Tamron-F Pz-AF MC4 1.4x teleconverter.
http://www.techtheman.com/2008/07/tamron-14x-pz-af-mc4-teleconverter.html

Yay for me!

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Re: A little gloat...

[Jack Davis]

My reaction is raw HATE! 

Have a nice Holiday, Darren.

Jack ;-))


- Original Message -
From: Darren Addy 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 1:28 PM
Subject: A little gloat...

I'm on an Old Workworking Tools mail list and when someone finds
something especially good/rare and/or cheap they like to post about it
and they call those posts "gloats". There are two kinds of people in
the world, those that are jealous of others good fortune and those who
are happy for another's good fortune. I've made a conscious decision
to be the latter.

Anyway, here's my gloat for the week. I found a DA 18-55mm II lens
with hood & caps for $90
http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-DA-18-55mm-F3.5-5.6-II-Version-2-Zoom-Lens.html
but that of course is not the gloat. The gloat is for what was
attached to it (included), a Tamron-F Pz-AF MC4 1.4x teleconverter.
http://www.techtheman.com/2008/07/tamron-14x-pz-af-mc4-teleconverter.html

Yay for me!

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Paul Stenquist]

It would be good if someone kept track of where I am in case I forget.

Paul
On Dec 19, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Matthew Hunt  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> 
>> How are they going to know where I am if I can barely get service from one
>> tower?
> 
> At least conceivably, beamforming antenna arrays at the tower (for
> azimuth), and round-trip signal delay (for the range).
> 
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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Larry Colen]

On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Bruce Walker wrote:

> That's a really sweet image of the couple. Your timing was excellent.
> 
> I can't help thinking that it should be less exposed though. I mean,
> if that scene was as dark as you and the EXIF say, then I expect it to
> look dark rather than looking almost like it was taken in daylight
> with a noisy P&S. What's that saying that's making the rounds lately?
> "Light reveals, shadow defines." At the very least vignetting the
> subject by darkening the background around them would help.

OK, I gave your suggestion a try.  My goal was a photo of the couple, not so 
much a photo of a dark room, but here is a darker version:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellarsee/8289056058/in/set-72157632279369283/


> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:02 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>> Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
>> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107
>> 
>> K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec
>> 
>> It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most of the 
>> photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was going over the 
>> shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I blew the manual 
>> focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the FA77 of the musicians 
>> on stage.  Almost every one of them was focused perfectly on some piece of 
>> clutter on the stage, rather than on the performers.  While I am sure that 
>> the improved low light focusing of the K5-II would certainly come in handy, 
>> the thing that I most desperately need is more focusing points, that cover 
>> smaller areas.
>> 
>> If anyone is interested in the whole set:
>> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/
>> 
>> Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
>> IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.
>> 
>> --
>> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: Paper White

[Daniel J. Matyola]

I did miss the focus.  It is also taken at 3200 ISO, which doesn't
help.  Still there is something I like about the image.

As to the light, this was taken indoors, at night, with artificial
lighting.  I just am not able to get outside during the daylight
hours.  If the weather is decent this weekend, I may take the flowers
and the tripod outside to see what I can do under better conditions.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 2:55 PM,   wrote:
> A good subject, but the image appears way soft all over like you may have
> missed the focus.
>
> I would have used a diffuser to help soften the light.
>
> Kenneth Waller
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller
>
> - Original Message - From: "Daniel J. Matyola"
> 
> Subject: PESO: Paper White
>
>
>> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670443
>>
>> Comments and criticisms always welcome.
>>
>> Dan Matyola
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
>
>
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Re: OT: Love Story without Words

[Daniel J. Matyola]

Of course, we all wish it wasn't needed.  It is important that people
like Gary Sinese expend the time and effort to give returning veterans
the help they need to lead a decent life.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:01 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> From: "Daniel J. Matyola"
>>
>> A while back, Lee and I attended  a benefit concert by Gary Sinese and
>> the Lt. Dan Band for the Tunnel to Towers Foundation
>> (http://www.tunneltotowersrun.org/), to raise money to build a house
>> for Taylor Morris, who lost his legs and one arm in Afghanistan.  This
>> love story, in images only, shows how he is rebuilding his life.
>>
>> http://www.momdot.com/have-you-ever-read-a-story-with-no-words%E2%80%8F
>>
>> The story has even made it to Russia, with a few images not in the above
>> link:
>>
>> http://www.fresher.ru/2012/09/18/istoriya-odnoj-lyubvi/#more-44691
>
>
> It's good to see there's something helping him to get back on his feet.
> I just wish it wasn't needed.
>
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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Matthew Hunt]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:

> How are they going to know where I am if I can barely get service from one
> tower?

At least conceivably, beamforming antenna arrays at the tower (for
azimuth), and round-trip signal delay (for the range).

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[John Sessoms]

The tracking doesn't seem to work that well if your phone is old enough. 
I've got an old Motorola W315 and every time I've had to call 911 from 
my mobile I have to tell them where I am because I don't show up in 
their system. I don't think they can track my location in real time.


They might be able get Verizon to check their databases & calculate a 
location at any given time my cell phone has two or more towers in 
sight, but based on the way my service has gone downhill since Verizon 
acquired Alltel, I'm guessing that doesn't happen all that often any more.


How are they going to know where I am if I can barely get service from 
one tower?


From: Eactivist

Practically every cell phone can be tracked as to location, even
those without GPS. I've always found that a bit scary, actually. (I
have a very basic flip phone and very basic service.)

You know, 1984, Big Brother and all that. But don't listen to me I put masking 
tape over the web cam on my laptop.

Marnie aka Doe ;-)

In a message dated 12/19/2012 10:01:45 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
gerrit...@gmail.com writes:
A wonderful yet terrifying example:
http://www.ted.com/talks/malte_spitz_your_phone_company_is_watching.html

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Doug Franklin
Sent: December 19, 2012 12:47 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

On 2012-12-18 23:53, Tom C wrote:

When I wrote "clandestinely track them", I meant the ability to,  or to
back-trace an individual, were the desire to do so  arise.


If you're on the internet, or have a cell phone, you're almost  certainly
trackable.  "Almost" because you can do those things and  remain
untrackable,
but it takes a significant amount of  effort.



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Re: OT: Adobe Flash Player update

[P. J. Alling]

On 12/19/2012 2:52 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
You have to check the box that says I have read & agree to the Flash 
Player License. If you actually want to read the Flash Player License 
it opens a web page using your browser. If you scroll down you can 
find Adobe Flash Player. Click on the link there and it opens a PDF 
document to page 87 of 304 pages. The actual Flash Player License is 8 
pages long. I didn't find any gators lurking in the swamp but by the 
time I got there I was having trouble not nodding off, so I may have 
missed them if they're there.


WTF? I mean REALLY WTF do they need a 304 page EULA for software 
they're giving away free?


Thank you. We now return you to your regular station.

You've got to keep the lawyers employed and out of other mischief, 
otherwise there's no telling what might happen.



Legal bloat is however the way of the world, just for amusement sake, 
visit you're local land records office, and compare a mortgage written 
100 years ago to a modern one, it's amazing how few words needed to be 
said to cover the contingencies of a default as opposed to how many are 
required today.


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RE: OT: Love Story without Words

[John Sessoms]

From: "Daniel J. Matyola"

A while back, Lee and I attended  a benefit concert by Gary Sinese and
the Lt. Dan Band for the Tunnel to Towers Foundation
(http://www.tunneltotowersrun.org/), to raise money to build a house
for Taylor Morris, who lost his legs and one arm in Afghanistan.  This
love story, in images only, shows how he is rebuilding his life.

http://www.momdot.com/have-you-ever-read-a-story-with-no-words%E2%80%8F

The story has even made it to Russia, with a few images not in the above link:

http://www.fresher.ru/2012/09/18/istoriya-odnoj-lyubvi/#more-44691


It's good to see there's something helping him to get back on his feet.
I just wish it wasn't needed.

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[P. J. Alling]

That's true communism, however every communist system bigger than a 
shaker community that has been tried is actually a form of fascism, 
whereby all property and all citizens belong to the state. The rest is 
just window dressing.


On 12/19/2012 2:38 PM, Boris Liberman wrote:
The caveat here that if you're grown up enough you can agree to limit 
some of your privacy by choosing to sign an agreement. Now if the 
'good' that may come to you is attractive enough (e.g. you won't be 
facebook-less outcast) you will sign it anyway. And since the state 
has so much to gain from 'partnering' with facebook, they won't 
interfere... And so you will soon enough arrive at things such as 
instagram mishap.


By the way it occurs to me that if instagram really decided to be 
truly communistic, it would say something like this - by uploading 
your pics to us you give up all the rights - we can use them as we 
please, but in return you can use pictures of any other user for any 
purpose whatsoever. Of course that's not gonna happen, ever.



Sent with AquaMail for Android
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On December 19, 2012 3:08:21 PM John Sessoms  
wrote:

From: Doug Franklin
> On 2012-12-18 23:23, Tom C wrote:
>> In what way I ask. There's certainly much I don't know. Are you
>> referring to the concept of personal privacy or the state of personal
>> privacy (i.e. the ease with which it can be invaded and trampled
>> upon)? I understand privacy can be invaded in any number of ways, but
>> never in human history have major portions of populations, via
>> technology, enabled powers to clandestinely track them, including
>> their whereabouts, contacts, purchases, transactions, etc.
>
> If I understand the argument correctly, it's about expectation of
> privacy. The argument seems to go along the lines of how, outside
> fairly recent Western societies, privacy didn't really exist due to 
the

> living conditions, to the extent that no one really thought much about
> it, much less agonized over whether it was a right, a privilege, a
> circumstance, or a symptom.

I would argue that it dates back at least into the 17th Century. The
writings of the Enlightenment philosophers & scientists clearly had
profound effect upon the founding fathers and are reflected in the
Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The right to privacy is implicit in the 3rd & 4th Amendments and to a
lesser extent in the 5th & 6th.

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Re: Paper White

[kwaller]

A good subject, but the image appears way soft all over like you may have 
missed the focus.


I would have used a diffuser to help soften the light.

Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller

- Original Message - 
From: "Daniel J. Matyola" 

Subject: PESO: Paper White



http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670443

Comments and criticisms always welcome.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola



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RE: OT - Football pics

[Bob W]

> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Paul Dunderdale
> 
> Nice pics!
> 
> Accrington is indeed a rainy place that was once home to dark satanic
> mills.  'Stanley' after the wealthy Stanley family, mill-owners and
> possibly benefactors, for whom the Stanley Cup is named.
> 
> Paul
> Lancashire Lad.
> 

my family used to own 13 of those dark satanic mills, scattered about
Lancashire, and my grandfather was raised in Accrington, a mere 25 or so
miles via Ramsbottom from the ancestral homelands.


B


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OT: Adobe Flash Player update

[John Sessoms]

You have to check the box that says I have read & agree to the Flash 
Player License. If you actually want to read the Flash Player License it 
opens a web page using your browser. If you scroll down you can find 
Adobe Flash Player. Click on the link there and it opens a PDF document 
to page 87 of 304 pages. The actual Flash Player License is 8 pages 
long. I didn't find any gators lurking in the swamp but by the time I 
got there I was having trouble not nodding off, so I may have missed 
them if they're there.


WTF? I mean REALLY WTF do they need a 304 page EULA for software they're 
giving away free?


Thank you. We now return you to your regular station.

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Re: Not quite OT the mirrorless party.

[Bruce Walker]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Brian Walters  wrote:
> Quoting "P. J. Alling" :
>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO7rxitFLZg
>
> Pentax - Late to the party again...

Sad 'cause it's true. :)

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Re: PESO: Blanket

[kwaller]

What's a guy to do, Ken?


My comment was only half in jest. Take your camera for a walk and you surely 
will find things to photo, even in the rain - its a Pentax right?  I've shot 
for hours in the rain, just take care to shield it as much as possible.


But I understand your desire to  see what the new lens can do.

Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller

- Original Message - 
From: "Daniel J. Matyola" 

Subject: Re: PESO: Blanket


Thanks for looking and commenting, Jeffery, Marne and Ken.  I appreciate 
it.


The blanket is not especially warm, Jeffery;  It is decorative, and
used more as a colorful throw over the couch than for keeping people
warm.  (I have a Malamute for warmth.)  I agree it is not an exciting
image Marnie;  I am warming up for spring -- and before that, for my
trip to Maui this February.  What's a guy to do, Ken?  I just received
this ancient but serviceable macro lens, and it was cold and rainy
outside, without a flower, bug or butterfly to be seen.  I had to find
something to try it out on .  .  .

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 11:54 PM,   wrote:


Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller

- Original Message - From: 
Subject: Re: PESO: Blanket




Nice close up and it does absolutely nothing for  me.



Well you're not the only one Marnie.

I think Dan needs to take a trip and find some subject matteror at 
least

get out of the house more often.





HTH, Marnie aka Doe :-)  (Never sure if people only want  positive
comments.)

In a message dated 12/18/2012 7:35:18 P.M. Pacific  Standard Time,
danmaty...@gmail.com  writes:
http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16677336

Dan  Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola



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RE: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Boris Liberman]

Naturally. It is caused by the size of my glasses...


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On December 19, 2012 9:36:16 PM "Bob W"  wrote:

> I was very
> heavily scratching my head from within as I was listening to him...

you must have really big nostrils

B

> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Boris Liberman
> Sent: 19 December 2012 19:28
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...
>
> Just today a coworker of mine was boasting with his brand new galaxy
> note 2 phablet. It was so cool, he said - it automatically connected to
> his Facebook account, scanned all the entries there and built a
> dictionary for his phablet predictive input keyboard... I was very
> heavily scratching my head from within as I was listening to him...
>
>
> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>
>
> On December 19, 2012 7:43:53 AM Doug Franklin 
> wrote:
> > On 2012-12-18 23:23, Tom C wrote:
> >
> > > In what way I ask. There's certainly much I don't know. Are you
> > > referring to the concept of personal privacy or the state of
> > > personal privacy (i.e. the ease with which it can be invaded and
> > > trampled upon)?  I understand privacy can be invaded in any number
> > > of ways, but never in human history have major portions of
> > > populations, via technology, enabled powers to clandestinely track
> > > them, including their whereabouts, contacts, purchases,
> transactions, etc.
> >
> > If I understand the argument correctly, it's about expectation of
> > privacy.  The argument seems to go along the lines of how, outside
> > fairly recent Western societies, privacy didn't really exist due to
> > the living conditions, to the extent that no one really thought much
> > about it, much less agonized over whether it was a right, a
> privilege,
> > a circumstance, or a symptom.
> >
> > --
> > Doug "Lefty" Franklin
> > NutDriver Racing
> > http://NutDriver.org
> > Facebook "NutDriver Racing"
> > Sponsored by Murphy
> >
> >
> > --
> > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> > PDML@pdml.net
> > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above
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> > follow the directions.
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Re: Another year - list news

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

Great, thanks Doug. And thank you for keeping the list running so
well. No need send personal notes — It's a pleasure to contribute, and
my way of honoring what you do for the list.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Doug Brewer  wrote:
> First, I want to thank everyone for the donations. I will eventually get
> around to thanking you all individually, but this week is a little frantic.
> Just know that it all helps.
>
> This morning I re-upped the domain name for another year, so I guess we're
> going to stick around a while longer.
>
> Onward and upward, then.
>
> Doug


-- 
Godfrey
  godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

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Re: Another year - list news

[Boris Liberman]

Thanks for your hard work and infinite patience, Doug.


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On December 19, 2012 7:40:51 PM Doug Brewer  wrote:

First, I want to thank everyone for the donations. I will eventually get
around to thanking you all individually, but this week is a little
frantic. Just know that it all helps.

This morning I re-upped the domain name for another year, so I guess
we're going to stick around a while longer.

Onward and upward, then.

Doug

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Boris Liberman]

The caveat here that if you're grown up enough you can agree to limit 
some of your privacy by choosing to sign an agreement. Now if the 
'good' that may come to you is attractive enough (e.g. you won't be 
facebook-less outcast) you will sign it anyway. And since the state has 
so much to gain from 'partnering' with  facebook, they won't 
interfere... And so you will soon enough arrive at things such as 
instagram mishap.


By the way it occurs to me that if instagram really decided to be truly 
communistic, it would say something like this - by uploading your pics 
to us you give up all the rights - we can use them as we please, but in 
return you can use pictures of any other user for any purpose 
whatsoever. Of course that's not gonna happen, ever.



Sent with AquaMail for Android
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On December 19, 2012 3:08:21 PM John Sessoms  wrote:

From: Doug Franklin
> On 2012-12-18 23:23, Tom C wrote:
>> In what way I ask. There's certainly much I don't know. Are you
>> referring to the concept of personal privacy or the state of personal
>> privacy (i.e. the ease with which it can be invaded and trampled
>> upon)?  I understand privacy can be invaded in any number of ways, but
>> never in human history have major portions of populations, via
>> technology, enabled powers to clandestinely track them, including
>> their whereabouts, contacts, purchases, transactions, etc.
>
> If I understand the argument correctly, it's about expectation of
> privacy.  The argument seems to go along the lines of how, outside
> fairly recent Western societies, privacy didn't really exist due to the
> living conditions, to the extent that no one really thought much about
> it, much less agonized over whether it was a right, a privilege, a
> circumstance, or a symptom.

I would argue that it dates back at least into the 17th Century. The
writings of the Enlightenment philosophers & scientists clearly had
profound effect upon the founding fathers and are reflected in the
Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The right to privacy is implicit in the 3rd & 4th Amendments and to a
lesser extent in the 5th & 6th.

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RE: Another year - list news

[Bob W]

> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of mike wilson
> Sent: 19 December 2012 17:54
> > Well, there's no guarantee of that, Jack, but I appreciate the
> thought.
> > Your mail got here, by the way. Thank you.
> >
> On that rather doleful note, another forum I frequent had the
> misfortune recently to lose its proprietor, suddenly, at far too young
> an age.  He was a photographer, too.
> http://cargocollective.com/nickbartonphptography/Nick-Barton-
> Photography
> http://cargocollective.com/nickbartonphptography/Page-Two
> 
> Caused no end of a ruckus.
> 
> Do we have something in place here to deal with the unthinkably
> inevitable?

I'll probably join Instagram

B


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OT: 2 Billion Pixels

[Daniel J. Matyola]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/18/photo-mount-everest-in-two-billion-pixels/

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

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RE: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Bob W]

> I was very
> heavily scratching my head from within as I was listening to him...

you must have really big nostrils

B

> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Boris Liberman
> Sent: 19 December 2012 19:28
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...
> 
> Just today a coworker of mine was boasting with his brand new galaxy
> note 2 phablet. It was so cool, he said - it automatically connected to
> his Facebook account, scanned all the entries there and built a
> dictionary for his phablet predictive input keyboard... I was very
> heavily scratching my head from within as I was listening to him...
> 
> 
> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> http://www.aqua-mail.com
> 
> 
> On December 19, 2012 7:43:53 AM Doug Franklin 
> wrote:
> > On 2012-12-18 23:23, Tom C wrote:
> >
> > > In what way I ask. There's certainly much I don't know. Are you
> > > referring to the concept of personal privacy or the state of
> > > personal privacy (i.e. the ease with which it can be invaded and
> > > trampled upon)?  I understand privacy can be invaded in any number
> > > of ways, but never in human history have major portions of
> > > populations, via technology, enabled powers to clandestinely track
> > > them, including their whereabouts, contacts, purchases,
> transactions, etc.
> >
> > If I understand the argument correctly, it's about expectation of
> > privacy.  The argument seems to go along the lines of how, outside
> > fairly recent Western societies, privacy didn't really exist due to
> > the living conditions, to the extent that no one really thought much
> > about it, much less agonized over whether it was a right, a
> privilege,
> > a circumstance, or a symptom.
> >
> > --
> > Doug "Lefty" Franklin
> > NutDriver Racing
> > http://NutDriver.org
> > Facebook "NutDriver Racing"
> > Sponsored by Murphy
> >
> >
> > --
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> > PDML@pdml.net
> > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above
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> > follow the directions.
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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Bruce Walker]

That's a really sweet image of the couple. Your timing was excellent.

I can't help thinking that it should be less exposed though. I mean,
if that scene was as dark as you and the EXIF say, then I expect it to
look dark rather than looking almost like it was taken in daylight
with a noisy P&S. What's that saying that's making the rounds lately?
"Light reveals, shadow defines." At the very least vignetting the
subject by darkening the background around them would help.


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:02 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107
>
> K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec
>
> It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most of the 
> photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was going over the 
> shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I blew the manual 
> focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the FA77 of the musicians on 
> stage.  Almost every one of them was focused perfectly on some piece of 
> clutter on the stage, rather than on the performers.  While I am sure that 
> the improved low light focusing of the K5-II would certainly come in handy, 
> the thing that I most desperately need is more focusing points, that cover 
> smaller areas.
>
> If anyone is interested in the whole set:
> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/
>
> Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
> IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.
>
> --
> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: OT - Football pics

[Steve Cottrell]

On 19/12/12, Stan Halpin, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Add my kudos to the set. It is amazing how he can make such a slow dull
>game (;-) look as though it is filled with dynamic action!
>My one critique is that the empty seats really take away from the
>images. An indistinct out of focus howling mob of fans in the background
>would greatly intensify the emotion in the images. I know, you work with
>what you are given, but if/when he has the freedom to roam and choose
>his point of view, fans in the background would be better than row on
>row of empty seats.

Actually a very good point! He was with 2 other photogs and I think with
more confidence, would have opted for the other side of the goal posts,
thereby getting a full stand behind. The old pros he was with were
obviously lazy as it was less distance to walk! Will pass this on.
Thanks Stan.

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Boris Liberman]

John, I am sorry to burst your bubble, but if you look deep enough at 
any modern bureaucratic society, you will inevitably find certain signs 
of what you said in the quote below...


I do suggest to take further exchange on the matter of the list.


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On December 19, 2012 8:49:10 AM John Sessoms  wrote:

From: Doug Franklin
> On 2012-12-18 22:17, John Sessoms wrote:
>> The essential difference between Fascism & Communism is that under
>> Fascism the government tells the people what to do and under Communism
>> the people are told what to do by the government.
>
> I've long been under the impression that, at least as practiced by the
> Germans and Italians in the 1920s-1940s, the difference was that fascism
> was based on (allegedly) "what's good for the peasant folk" versus
> communism's (allegedly) "what's good for everyone", in both cases, as
> judged by "the powers that be".

Soviet style Marxist-Leninist communism was "what's good for the
proletariat" - supposedly the workers.

Russia had several different flavors of "communists" after the revolution.
Eventually the Bolsheviks won out and killed off all the others.

In action, both systems created a new governing class made up of the
party faithful to serve the interests of the peasant-folk/workers. And
for some reason the interests of the peasant-folk/workers was almost
always what most benefited the new governing class.

Whatever the differences in the guiding philosophical principles of
Fascism & Communism, when viewed from the lower social strata looking
up, they appear remarkably similar.

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Boris Liberman]

Just today a coworker of mine was boasting with his brand new galaxy 
note 2 phablet. It was so cool, he said - it automatically connected to 
his Facebook account, scanned all the entries there and built a 
dictionary for his phablet predictive input keyboard... I was very 
heavily scratching my head from within as I was listening to him...



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On December 19, 2012 7:43:53 AM Doug Franklin  wrote:

On 2012-12-18 23:23, Tom C wrote:

> In what way I ask. There's certainly much I don't know. Are you
> referring to the concept of personal privacy or the state of personal
> privacy (i.e. the ease with which it can be invaded and trampled
> upon)?  I understand privacy can be invaded in any number of ways, but
> never in human history have major portions of populations, via
> technology, enabled powers to clandestinely track them, including
> their whereabouts, contacts, purchases, transactions, etc.

If I understand the argument correctly, it's about expectation of
privacy.  The argument seems to go along the lines of how, outside
fairly recent Western societies, privacy didn't really exist due to the
living conditions, to the extent that no one really thought much about
it, much less agonized over whether it was a right, a privilege, a
circumstance, or a symptom.

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Re: PESO - The Filmmaker

[Bruce Walker]

Thanks, Marnie.

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:39 PM,   wrote:
> Like the B&W one, other is nice  too.
>
> Looks like a football guy, not a film maker.
>
> Marnie aka Doe  :-)
>
> In a message dated 12/17/2012 1:12:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> bruce.wal...@gmail.com writes:
> My wife has been pursuing a creative project  interviewing Canadian
> indie filmmakers about their projects and lives. I've  been tagging
> along to help (lighting, grip, sometimes DP) and to get stills  of the
> subjects.
>
> I have enough decent shots from these outings now  that I've decided to
> make my own series: The Filmmakers. Here's the  latest:
>
> "Jeffrey W.  Pike"
> http://www.flickr.com/bruce_m_walker/8278639503/lightbox/
>
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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Boris Liberman]

Quite an excellent set, Larry. It sure conveys the jubilant mood of 
that evening.



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On December 19, 2012 8:02:01 AM Larry Colen  wrote:

Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107

K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec

It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most 
of the photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was 
going over the shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I 
blew the manual focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the 
FA77 of the musicians on stage.  Almost every one of them was focused 
perfectly on some piece of clutter on the stage, rather than on the 
performers.  While I am sure that the improved low light focusing of 
the K5-II would certainly come in handy, the thing that I most 
desperately need is more focusing points, that cover smaller areas.


If anyone is interested in the whole set:
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/

Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.

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Re: OT - Football pics

[Stan Halpin]

Add my kudos to the set. It is amazing how he can make such a slow dull game 
(;-) look as though it is filled with dynamic action!
My one critique is that the empty seats really take away from the images. An 
indistinct out of focus howling mob of fans in the background would greatly 
intensify the emotion in the images. I know, you work with what you are given, 
but if/when he has the freedom to roam and choose his point of view, fans in 
the background would be better than row on row of empty seats.

stan

On Dec 19, 2012, at 2:00 PM, Steve Cottrell wrote:

> Thanks to all for the kind words - will pass them on.
> -- 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
>  Cotty
> 
> 
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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Larry Colen]

On Dec 19, 2012, at 9:34 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote:

> Larry,
> I've been using the AF button on the back of the camera in low light.

I use that button to disable autofocus, once I have the subject in focus.

> I'm betting better focusing results in lower light, but
> I might be paying more attention,
> It might be the DA 55/1.4, or
> the K-5IIs

Getting focus does depend a lot on which lens I was using.  Also, since I was 
switching back and forth between the K-x and the K-5, and the K-x doesn't have 
focus point indicators, I just have it set to center point auto focus.  I 
didn't generally have problem getting focus lock on the brightly lit stage, 
though I often did in the dimly lit room.

I do have a huge assortment of photos of perfectly focused microphones, showing 
lovely bokeh on the musician behind the mic.


> Regards,  Bob S.
> 
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>> Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
>> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107
>> 
>> K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec
>> 
>> It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most of the 
>> photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was going over the 
>> shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I blew the manual 
>> focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the FA77 of the musicians 
>> on stage.  Almost every one of them was focused perfectly on some piece of 
>> clutter on the stage, rather than on the performers.  While I am sure that 
>> the improved low light focusing of the K5-II would certainly come in handy, 
>> the thing that I most desperately need is more focusing points, that cover 
>> smaller areas.
>> 
>> If anyone is interested in the whole set:
>> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/
>> 
>> Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
>> IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.
>> 
>> --
>> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Larry Colen]

On Dec 19, 2012, at 8:41 AM, P. J. Alling wrote:

> The noise isn't the problem, it's the completely blown highlight that 
> software replaced with a lighter blue just above the watch.

I'm not sure that I can tell which you're talking about, the blue shirt,  some 
reflection of the blue stage lights, or something that I'm missing entirely.


> 
> On 12/19/2012 3:07 AM, Larry Colen wrote:
>> On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Tim Bray wrote:
>> 
>>> Wow, the hands (pity about the watch, but still). Glad you were there
>>> to catch that. -T
>> Thank you.  And thanks for the idea for another crop:
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellarsee/8287195594/sizes/o/
>> 
>> For what it's worth, this is a 100% crop at ISO 12,800. While the noise is 
>> noticeable, I'm blown away by the detail that's still there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
 Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
 http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107
 
 K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec
 
 It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most of 
 the photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was going 
 over the shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I blew the 
 manual focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the FA77 of the 
 musicians on stage.  Almost every one of them was focused perfectly on 
 some piece of clutter on the stage, rather than on the performers.  While 
 I am sure that the improved low light focusing of the K5-II would 
 certainly come in handy, the thing that I most desperately need is more 
 focusing points, that cover smaller areas.
 
 If anyone is interested in the whole set:
 http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/
 
 Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
 IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.
 
 --
 Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
 
 
 
 
 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Buy a Leica to get the full “Leica Experience”, (a quick reduction of funds 
> in the bank account).
> 
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Re: OT - Football pics

[Steve Cottrell]

Thanks to all for the kind words - will pass them on.
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Re: PESO: Paper White

[Daniel J. Matyola]

I've always had floaters, but sharp eyesight.  Now, I require glasses
and that complicates things.

In Maui, I use different lenses than here.  I need my longest zoom for
the whales, my widest for the landscapes, and I will try the macro for
the flowers.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:01 PM,   wrote:
> Second that. Both (focus and  Hawaii).
>
> Marnie aka Doe :-) I've got lots of floaters.
>
> In a  message dated 12/19/2012 9:56:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> rf.sulli...@gmail.com writes:
> Thanks Dan,
> Deciding what you want in focus  is always a challenge.
> And I hear you about the eyesight (floaters  here).
> Have you tried focus bracketing? Digital shots are cheap.
> And  faster shutter speeds always help.
> Practice on those flowers in Hawaii, you  lucky dog.
> Regards, Bob S.
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Daniel J.  Matyola
>  wrote:
>> That is a gorgeous image,  Bob!
>>
>> Yes, mine should be sharper.  I think that I was  trying to get the
>> yellow bits as sharp as possible while keeping most of  the rest of the
>> flower in reasonable focus.  I should have been  more decisive.
>>
>> I don't think the problem is camera shake, as It  was taken indoors,
>> using a tripod and firing the shutter with the  remote.  The fault is
>> in my eyesight;  I have some problems  seeing details clearly enough,
>> even switching from view finder to live  view and back.
>>
>> Dan Matyola
>>  http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>
>>
>> On Wed,  Dec 19, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Bob Sullivan 
> wrote:
>>> Dan,
>>> You can get sharper results, especially in  the yellow bits.
>>> It might be camera shake.
>>> Here is a  photo taken with the DFA100/2.8 Macro,
>>> but at f7.1 and 1/500th on  the K-5.
>>>  http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16678874
>>> Regards,  Bob  S.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Daniel J. Matyola
>  wrote:
  http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670443

  Comments and criticisms always welcome.

 Dan  Matyola
  http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

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Re: OT - Football pics

[Steve Cottrell]

On 19/12/12, John Sessoms, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Third one down where they chop off the tops of the player's heads is
>cropped too much. But, it's good that he's getting practical experience.

Sadly my son's original crop is perfect - there must be an issue with
the templates they use to put images on the web. Thanks.

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Re: OT - Football pics

[Steve Cottrell]

On 19/12/12, Paul Dunderdale, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Accrington is indeed a rainy place that was once home to dark satanic
>mills.  'Stanley' after the wealthy Stanley family, mill-owners and
>possibly benefactors, for whom the Stanley Cup is named.

I am duly educated! Thanks!

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Re: Another year - list news

[mike wilson]

On 19/12/2012 18:54, Doug Brewer wrote:

On 12/19/12 12:45 PM, Jack Davis wrote:

Grateful you'll be there for another year, Doug.

Jack


Well, there's no guarantee of that, Jack, but I appreciate the thought.
Your mail got here, by the way. Thank you.

On that rather doleful note, another forum I frequent had the misfortune 
recently to lose its proprietor, suddenly, at far too young an age.  He 
was a photographer, too.

http://cargocollective.com/nickbartonphptography/Nick-Barton-Photography
http://cargocollective.com/nickbartonphptography/Page-Two

Caused no end of a ruckus.

Do we have something in place here to deal with the unthinkably inevitable?

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Re: Not quite OT the mirrorless party.

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

Very silly stuff. :-)

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 8:00 PM, P. J. Alling
 wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO7rxitFLZg

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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Eactivist]

Practically every cell phone can be tracked as  to location, even those 
without GPS. I've always found that a bit scary,  actually. (I have a very 
basic flip phone and very basic service.)

You  know, 1984, Big Brother and all that. But don't listen to me I put 
masking tape  over the web cam on my laptop. 

Marnie aka Doe ;-)

In a message  dated 12/19/2012 10:01:45 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, 
gerrit...@gmail.com  writes:
A wonderful yet terrifying  example:
http://www.ted.com/talks/malte_spitz_your_phone_company_is_watching.html  

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: PDML  [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Doug Franklin
Sent: December 19,  2012 12:47 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: OT- Instagram now  has right to sell your photos...

On 2012-12-18 23:53, Tom C  wrote:
> When I wrote "clandestinely track them", I meant the ability to,  or to 
> back-trace an individual, were the desire to do so  arise.

If you're on the internet, or have a cell phone, you're almost  certainly
trackable.  "Almost" because you can do those things and  remain 
untrackable,
but it takes a significant amount of  effort.

--
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver  Racing
http://NutDriver.org
Facebook "NutDriver Racing"
Sponsored by  Murphy


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RE: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[Gerrit Visser]

A wonderful yet terrifying example:
http://www.ted.com/talks/malte_spitz_your_phone_company_is_watching.html 

Gerrit

-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Doug Franklin
Sent: December 19, 2012 12:47 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

On 2012-12-18 23:53, Tom C wrote:
> When I wrote "clandestinely track them", I meant the ability to, or to 
> back-trace an individual, were the desire to do so arise.

If you're on the internet, or have a cell phone, you're almost certainly
trackable.  "Almost" because you can do those things and remain untrackable,
but it takes a significant amount of effort.

--
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing
http://NutDriver.org
Facebook "NutDriver Racing"
Sponsored by Murphy


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Re: PESO: Paper White

[Eactivist]

Second that. Both (focus and  Hawaii).

Marnie aka Doe :-) I've got lots of floaters.

In a  message dated 12/19/2012 9:56:43 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
rf.sulli...@gmail.com writes:
Thanks Dan,
Deciding what you want in focus  is always a challenge.
And I hear you about the eyesight (floaters  here).
Have you tried focus bracketing? Digital shots are cheap.
And  faster shutter speeds always help.
Practice on those flowers in Hawaii, you  lucky dog.
Regards, Bob S.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Daniel J.  Matyola
 wrote:
> That is a gorgeous image,  Bob!
>
> Yes, mine should be sharper.  I think that I was  trying to get the
> yellow bits as sharp as possible while keeping most of  the rest of the
> flower in reasonable focus.  I should have been  more decisive.
>
> I don't think the problem is camera shake, as It  was taken indoors,
> using a tripod and firing the shutter with the  remote.  The fault is
> in my eyesight;  I have some problems  seeing details clearly enough,
> even switching from view finder to live  view and back.
>
> Dan Matyola
>  http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
>
> On Wed,  Dec 19, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Bob Sullivan   
wrote:
>> Dan,
>> You can get sharper results, especially in  the yellow bits.
>> It might be camera shake.
>> Here is a  photo taken with the DFA100/2.8 Macro,
>> but at f7.1 and 1/500th on  the K-5.
>>  http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16678874
>> Regards,  Bob  S.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Daniel J. Matyola  
 wrote:
>>>  http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670443
>>>
>>>  Comments and criticisms always welcome.
>>>
>>> Dan  Matyola
>>>  http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>>
>>>  --
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follow the  directions.
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Re: PESO: Paper White

[Bob Sullivan]

Thanks Dan,
Deciding what you want in focus is always a challenge.
And I hear you about the eyesight (floaters here).
Have you tried focus bracketing? Digital shots are cheap.
And faster shutter speeds always help.
Practice on those flowers in Hawaii, you lucky dog.
Regards, Bob S.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Daniel J. Matyola
 wrote:
> That is a gorgeous image, Bob!
>
> Yes, mine should be sharper.  I think that I was trying to get the
> yellow bits as sharp as possible while keeping most of the rest of the
> flower in reasonable focus.  I should have been more decisive.
>
> I don't think the problem is camera shake, as It was taken indoors,
> using a tripod and firing the shutter with the remote.  The fault is
> in my eyesight;  I have some problems seeing details clearly enough,
> even switching from view finder to live view and back.
>
> Dan Matyola
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
>> Dan,
>> You can get sharper results, especially in the yellow bits.
>> It might be camera shake.
>> Here is a photo taken with the DFA100/2.8 Macro,
>> but at f7.1 and 1/500th on the K-5.
>> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16678874
>> Regards,  Bob S.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Daniel J. Matyola  
>> wrote:
>>> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670443
>>>
>>> Comments and criticisms always welcome.
>>>
>>> Dan Matyola
>>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>>
>>> --
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
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>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>>> follow the directions.
>>
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Re: Another year - list news

[Doug Brewer]

On 12/19/12 12:45 PM, Jack Davis wrote:

Grateful you'll be there for another year, Doug.

Jack


Well, there's no guarantee of that, Jack, but I appreciate the thought. 
Your mail got here, by the way. Thank you.


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Re: OT: Love Story without Words

[Bob Sullivan]

Dan,
Nice to see the story mad it all the way to Russia.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Daniel J. Matyola
 wrote:
> A while back, Lee and I attended  a benefit concert by Gary Sinese and
> the Lt. Dan Band for the Tunnel to Towers Foundation
> (http://www.tunneltotowersrun.org/), to raise money to build a house
> for Taylor Morris, who lost his legs and one arm in Afghanistan.  This
> love story, in images only, shows how he is rebuilding his life.
>
> http://www.momdot.com/have-you-ever-read-a-story-with-no-words%E2%80%8F
>
> The story has even made it to Russia, with a few images not in the above link:
>
> http://www.fresher.ru/2012/09/18/istoriya-odnoj-lyubvi/#more-44691
>
> Dan Matyola
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
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Re: Another year - list news

[Jack Davis]

Grateful you'll be there for another year, Doug.
 
Jack

From: Doug Brewer 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List  
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:40 AM
Subject: Another year - list news

First, I want to thank everyone for the donations. I will eventually get around 
to thanking you all individually, but this week is a little frantic. Just know 
that it all helps.

This morning I re-upped the domain name for another year, so I guess we're 
going to stick around a while longer.

Onward and upward, then.

Doug

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Another year - list news

[Doug Brewer]

First, I want to thank everyone for the donations. I will eventually get 
around to thanking you all individually, but this week is a little 
frantic. Just know that it all helps.


This morning I re-upped the domain name for another year, so I guess 
we're going to stick around a while longer.


Onward and upward, then.

Doug

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Re: PESO: Paper White

[Daniel J. Matyola]

That is a gorgeous image, Bob!

Yes, mine should be sharper.  I think that I was trying to get the
yellow bits as sharp as possible while keeping most of the rest of the
flower in reasonable focus.  I should have been more decisive.

I don't think the problem is camera shake, as It was taken indoors,
using a tripod and firing the shutter with the remote.  The fault is
in my eyesight;  I have some problems seeing details clearly enough,
even switching from view finder to live view and back.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> Dan,
> You can get sharper results, especially in the yellow bits.
> It might be camera shake.
> Here is a photo taken with the DFA100/2.8 Macro,
> but at f7.1 and 1/500th on the K-5.
> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16678874
> Regards,  Bob S.
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Daniel J. Matyola  
> wrote:
>> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670443
>>
>> Comments and criticisms always welcome.
>>
>> Dan Matyola
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>
>> --
>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> PDML@pdml.net
>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>> follow the directions.
>
> --
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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Bob Sullivan]

Larry,
I've been using the AF button on the back of the camera in low light.
I'm betting better focusing results in lower light, but
I might be paying more attention,
It might be the DA 55/1.4, or
the K-5IIs
Regards,  Bob S.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107
>
> K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec
>
> It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most of the 
> photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was going over the 
> shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I blew the manual 
> focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the FA77 of the musicians on 
> stage.  Almost every one of them was focused perfectly on some piece of 
> clutter on the stage, rather than on the performers.  While I am sure that 
> the improved low light focusing of the K5-II would certainly come in handy, 
> the thing that I most desperately need is more focusing points, that cover 
> smaller areas.
>
> If anyone is interested in the whole set:
> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/
>
> Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
> IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.
>
> --
> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: PESO: Wintersun

[Bob Sullivan]

Tim,
I've found that kind of light can make some great wide shots as well.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Tim Bray  wrote:
> What the title says:
> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2012/12/18/-big/IMG_0358.jpg.html
>
> I got super-busy and had to ignore PDML for a couple weeks. That's a
> real quality-of-life problem, as in I missed you.  -T
>
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Re: PESO: Paper White

[Bob Sullivan]

Dan,
You can get sharper results, especially in the yellow bits.
It might be camera shake.
Here is a photo taken with the DFA100/2.8 Macro,
but at f7.1 and 1/500th on the K-5.
http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16678874
Regards,  Bob S.

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Daniel J. Matyola  wrote:
> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16670443
>
> Comments and criticisms always welcome.
>
> Dan Matyola
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
> --
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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Re: PESO: Blanket

[Daniel J. Matyola]

I do have a stamp collection, and a coin collection.  I will try some
of those subjects when I have more time and more experience with the
lens.  I am especially anxious to photograph some items from my
collection of presidential campaign buttons, especially those from the
Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt campaigns.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Don Guthrie  wrote:
> Have you tried stamps? Not three D but lots of detail. Xmas stamps or
> someone with a stamp collection?
>
> pdml-requ...@pdml.net wrote:
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:11:12 -0500
>> From: "Daniel J. Matyola"
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: PESO: Blanket
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>
>> Thanks for looking and commenting, Jeffery, Marne and Ken.  I appreciate
>> it.
>>
>> The blanket is not especially warm, Jeffery;  It is decorative, and
>> used more as a colorful throw over the couch than for keeping people
>> warm.  (I have a Malamute for warmth.)  I agree it is not an exciting
>> image Marnie;  I am warming up for spring -- and before that, for my
>> trip to Maui this February.  What's a guy to do, Ken?  I just received
>> this ancient but serviceable macro lens, and it was cold and rainy
>> outside, without a flower, bug or butterfly to be seen.  I had to find
>> something to try it out on .  .  .
>>
>> Dan Matyola
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
>
>
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Re: PESO: Blanket

[Don Guthrie]

Have you tried stamps? Not three D but lots of detail. Xmas stamps or 
someone with a stamp collection?


pdml-requ...@pdml.net wrote:

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:11:12 -0500
From: "Daniel J. Matyola"
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO: Blanket
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Thanks for looking and commenting, Jeffery, Marne and Ken.  I appreciate it.

The blanket is not especially warm, Jeffery;  It is decorative, and
used more as a colorful throw over the couch than for keeping people
warm.  (I have a Malamute for warmth.)  I agree it is not an exciting
image Marnie;  I am warming up for spring -- and before that, for my
trip to Maui this February.  What's a guy to do, Ken?  I just received
this ancient but serviceable macro lens, and it was cold and rainy
outside, without a flower, bug or butterfly to be seen.  I had to find
something to try it out on .  .  .

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola



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Re:OT - Football pics

[Don Guthrie]

Well at least there is one decent photographer in the family. Nice 
action shots of a sport with which I am not familiar.


pdml-requ...@pdml.net wrote:

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:22:18 +
From: "Steve Cottrell"
To: "pentax list"
Subject: OT - Football pics
Message-ID:<20121219112218.1365411...@newsmtp.blacknight.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Filmed a football match last night at Oxford - FA Cup 3rd round replay
between Oxford United and Accrington Stanley (yes that is the name of
the team, from a small rainy place up north somewhere!!!) and Stef came
along. Managed to smuggle him in through the press entrance and Chris
the press relations bod for Oxford okay'd him going pitchside. There was
a newspaper snapper I know and so he looked after the lad and Stef
managed some decent shots which they published on the ITV website this
morning. The cropping is slightly severe - his shots were a bit looser -
I think they must fit into a template and the web people don't take much
care perhaps...



Stef's kit now is a 1DmIIn, 17-40/4, 28-135/3.5 and a 70-200/4 plus a
420EX flash. Tripod, monopod and some bits. He's on a gap year before
going to a London Uni to study Digital Photography.

#proudfather


-- Cheers, Cotty



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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[P. J. Alling]

The noise isn't the problem, it's the completely blown highlight that 
software replaced with a lighter blue just above the watch.


On 12/19/2012 3:07 AM, Larry Colen wrote:

On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Tim Bray wrote:


Wow, the hands (pity about the watch, but still). Glad you were there
to catch that. -T

Thank you.  And thanks for the idea for another crop:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellarsee/8287195594/sizes/o/

For what it's worth, this is a 100% crop at ISO 12,800. While the noise is 
noticeable, I'm blown away by the detail that's still there.




On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107

K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec

It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most of the 
photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was going over the 
shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I blew the manual 
focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the FA77 of the musicians on 
stage.  Almost every one of them was focused perfectly on some piece of clutter 
on the stage, rather than on the performers.  While I am sure that the improved 
low light focusing of the K5-II would certainly come in handy, the thing that I 
most desperately need is more focusing points, that cover smaller areas.

If anyone is interested in the whole set:
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/

Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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--
Buy a Leica to get the full “Leica Experience”, (a quick reduction of funds in 
the bank account).


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Re: PESO: Wintersun

[Don Guthrie]

The light quality can be really strange this time of year. Spooky movie 
look here.



pdml-requ...@pdml.net wrote:

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:49:19 -0800
From: Tim Bray
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: PESO: Wintersun
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

What the title says:
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2012/12/18/-big/IMG_0358.jpg.html

I got super-busy and had to ignore PDML for a couple weeks. That's a
real quality-of-life problem, as in I missed you.  -T



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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Don Guthrie]

Sweet portrait, Larry. I like the 2nd one of this couple where she makes 
eye contact with the viewer maybe even better. Technically well done as 
well.



pdml-requ...@pdml.net wrote:

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:02:01 -0800
From: Larry Colen
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: PESO Ziggy and Julie
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107

K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec

It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most of the 
photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was going over the 
shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I blew the manual 
focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the FA77 of the musicians on 
stage.  Almost every one of them was focused perfectly on some piece of clutter 
on the stage, rather than on the performers.  While I am sure that the improved 
low light focusing of the K5-II would certainly come in handy, the thing that I 
most desperately need is more focusing points, that cover smaller areas.

If anyone is interested in the whole set:
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/

Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.

--
Larry colen...@red4est.com  sent from i4est



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Re: Sometimes you just *have* to color-correct your images?

[Charles Robinson]

On Dec 18, 2012, at 21:12 , John Sessoms  wrote:

> I never use AWB. I set the camera to Sunny WB & leave it.
> 
> Sunny WB is going to be wrong, but at least it's always consistently
> wrong in the same direction. AWB is going to be wrong & wandering all
> over the place. NO two shots will be wrong in the same way.
> 
> With the fixed WB I have an easier time correcting it in Camera Raw.
> 

That's an interesting approach!  Maybe I'll try that for the next few weeks and 
see how it goes.

 -Charles

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Minneapolis, MN
http://charles.robinsontwins.org
http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson


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Re: PESO: Blanket

[Daniel J. Matyola]

Thanks for looking and commenting, Jeffery, Marne and Ken.  I appreciate it.

The blanket is not especially warm, Jeffery;  It is decorative, and
used more as a colorful throw over the couch than for keeping people
warm.  (I have a Malamute for warmth.)  I agree it is not an exciting
image Marnie;  I am warming up for spring -- and before that, for my
trip to Maui this February.  What's a guy to do, Ken?  I just received
this ancient but serviceable macro lens, and it was cold and rainy
outside, without a flower, bug or butterfly to be seen.  I had to find
something to try it out on .  .  .

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 11:54 PM,   wrote:
>
> Kenneth Waller
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller
>
> - Original Message - From: 
> Subject: Re: PESO: Blanket
>
>
>
>> Nice close up and it does absolutely nothing for  me.
>>
>
> Well you're not the only one Marnie.
>
> I think Dan needs to take a trip and find some subject matteror at least
> get out of the house more often.
>
>
>
>
>> HTH, Marnie aka Doe :-)  (Never sure if people only want  positive
>> comments.)
>>
>> In a message dated 12/18/2012 7:35:18 P.M. Pacific  Standard Time,
>> danmaty...@gmail.com  writes:
>> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16677336
>>
>> Dan  Matyola
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
>
>
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Re: PESO: Blanket

[Daniel J. Matyola]

Thanks, Gerrit.  I did this as an exercise to see what I could do with
the macro lens almost wide open.  I was especially interested in how
much of the frame would be in focus and how much out of focus.  The
surface of the blanket was almost, but not quite, parallel to the
surface of the lens, and that small difference really shows up in the
OOF areas of the image.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Gerrit Visser  wrote:
> A nice, modern abstract, not at all obvious what it actually is (without you
> telling us). Amazingly narrow depth of field.
>
> Gerrit
>
> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Daniel J. Matyola
> Sent: December 18, 2012 10:35 PM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: PESO: Blanket
>
> http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=16677336
>
> Dan Matyola
> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>
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Re: OT- Instagram now has right to sell your photos...

[John Sessoms]

From: Doug Franklin

On 2012-12-18 23:23, Tom C wrote:

In what way I ask. There's certainly much I don't know. Are you
referring to the concept of personal privacy or the state of personal
privacy (i.e. the ease with which it can be invaded and trampled
upon)?  I understand privacy can be invaded in any number of ways, but
never in human history have major portions of populations, via
technology, enabled powers to clandestinely track them, including
their whereabouts, contacts, purchases, transactions, etc.


If I understand the argument correctly, it's about expectation of
privacy.  The argument seems to go along the lines of how, outside
fairly recent Western societies, privacy didn't really exist due to the
living conditions, to the extent that no one really thought much about
it, much less agonized over whether it was a right, a privilege, a
circumstance, or a symptom.


I would argue that it dates back at least into the 17th Century. The
writings of the Enlightenment philosophers & scientists clearly had
profound effect upon the founding fathers and are reflected in the
Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The right to privacy is implicit in the 3rd & 4th Amendments and to a
lesser extent in the 5th & 6th.

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Re: OT - Football pics

[Paul Dunderdale]

Nice pics!

Accrington is indeed a rainy place that was once home to dark satanic mills.  
'Stanley' after the wealthy Stanley family, mill-owners and possibly 
benefactors, for whom the Stanley Cup is named.

Paul
Lancashire Lad.



Paul Dunderdale
dund...@mcb.net
pauldunderd...@me.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dunders/



On 19 Dec 2012, at 11:22, Steve Cottrell  wrote:

> Filmed a football match last night at Oxford - FA Cup 3rd round replay
> between Oxford United and Accrington Stanley (yes that is the name of
> the team, from a small rainy place up north somewhere!!!) and Stef came
> along. Managed to smuggle him in through the press entrance and Chris
> the press relations bod for Oxford okay'd him going pitchside. There was
> a newspaper snapper I know and so he looked after the lad and Stef
> managed some decent shots which they published on the ITV website this
> morning. The cropping is slightly severe - his shots were a bit looser -
> I think they must fit into a template and the web people don't take much
> care perhaps...
> 
> 
> 
> Stef's kit now is a 1DmIIn, 17-40/4, 28-135/3.5 and a 70-200/4 plus a
> 420EX flash. Tripod, monopod and some bits. He's on a gap year before
> going to a London Uni to study Digital Photography.
> 
> #proudfather
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
>  Cotty
> 
> 
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> 
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Re: Not quite OT the mirrorless party.

[Brian Walters]

Quoting "P. J. Alling" :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO7rxitFLZg




Pentax - Late to the party again...


Cheers

Brian

++
Brian Walters
Western Sydney Australia
http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/



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Re: OT - Football pics

[Steve Cottrell]

On 19/12/12, Gerrit Visser, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Very good timing on some of the shots. The photos make it look like a clash
>really happened :-)

It's called 8 fps drive I think!

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Re: Not quite OT the mirrorless party.

[Steve Cottrell]

On 18/12/12, P. J. Alling, discombobulated, unleashed:

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO7rxitFLZg

Good laugh! Thanks

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Re: GESO: Lane Motor Museum

[Steve Cottrell]

On 18/12/12, Jeffery Johnson, discombobulated, unleashed:

>That is true, I forget that most here are on a refined diet of fine 
>foods and high end wines.

I resent that slur!!

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Re: PESO Ziggy and Julie

[Larry Colen]

On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Tim Bray wrote:

> Wow, the hands (pity about the watch, but still). Glad you were there
> to catch that. -T

Thank you.  And thanks for the idea for another crop:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellarsee/8287195594/sizes/o/

For what it's worth, this is a 100% crop at ISO 12,800. While the noise is 
noticeable, I'm blown away by the detail that's still there.



> 
> On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>> Since we've been talking about K-5 high ISO performance:
>> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/8285822107
>> 
>> K-5, FA77  ISO 12,800  f/1.8  1/13 Sec
>> 
>> It was at a party and concert for Ziggy's 40th birthday.  I took most of the 
>> photos that night with the 80-200/2.8.  At first, when I was going over the 
>> shots, I was lamenting all of the ones I lost because I blew the manual 
>> focusing.  Then I looked at the ones I took with the FA77 of the musicians 
>> on stage.  Almost every one of them was focused perfectly on some piece of 
>> clutter on the stage, rather than on the performers.  While I am sure that 
>> the improved low light focusing of the K5-II would certainly come in handy, 
>> the thing that I most desperately need is more focusing points, that cover 
>> smaller areas.
>> 
>> If anyone is interested in the whole set:
>> http://www.fluidr.com/photos/ellarsee/sets/72157632279369283/
>> 
>> Most of them were shot between ISO 5,000 and 8,000.
>> IMGP is the K-x  LRC are the K-5.
>> 
>> --
>> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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