Re: Applying Lipstick
Hi Jim ... From some of the private mail I received, it seems there is no majority. There were quite a few suggestions g Jim Moniz wrote: I guess I might be in the minority here, but I actually like the cropped one a little better. The rest of the people and chairs balance it nicely. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Hi, I prefer the uncropped version because the woman is positioned more closely to a 3rd. The cropped version is somewhat unbalanced. Unfortunately the bright white behind her head is on the 3rd. White always drags the eye towards it, and with it being bang on the 3rd it is rather distracting. It might pay to tone it down a little. --- Bob mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thursday, October 25, 2001, 9:27:11 PM, you wrote: I borrowed a scanner yesterday and offer these two rough scans for your enjoyment: http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick_crop1.jpg Comments are welcome. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Hi ... You're right about the white light. There was little I could about it do wrt to exposure and development to tone it down. Less development would have muddied the print even more and ruined what little contrast there is between the woman's collar and her face and sweater. Had the print been made in the darkroom I'd have burned that area a bit. PS 6.0 has a feature that will allow dodging and burning, and even the scanner may have a way to set the levels. Of course, I don't know how to do that yet, but learning is just a matter of time. Your comment is right on the money. BTW, the film used for this shot is TX ... compare the grain structure of the current TX with that of the older TX in the photo of April. The developers used were similar, but the newer TX seems to have a finer, smoother grain pattern without losing accutance, and a smoother tonality. It may just be that my poorer skills in the early days contributed to the grain difference ... Bob Walkden wrote: Hi, I prefer the uncropped version because the woman is positioned more closely to a 3rd. The cropped version is somewhat unbalanced. Unfortunately the bright white behind her head is on the 3rd. White always drags the eye towards it, and with it being bang on the 3rd it is rather distracting. It might pay to tone it down a little. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Applying Lipstick
I borrowed a scanner yesterday and offer these two rough scans for your enjoyment: http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick_crop1.jpg Comments are welcome. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Details? On Thursday 25 October 2001 15:27, you wrote: I borrowed a scanner yesterday and offer these two rough scans for your enjoyment: http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick_crop1.jpg Comments are welcome. -- Kenneth Archer + San Antonio, Texas [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ #24980801 Powered by Linux ++ Mailed by Kmail - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Shel Belinkoff wrote: and was saved in Photoshop format. Later, using PS 6.0, I brought up the picture, sized it, and adjusted the contrast and brightness. I don't know how to use any other commands or tools yet. Shel, It's better to never use brightness/contrast, and instead adjust levels and curves. Next time you get a chance with Photoshop, try ctrl-L to bring up the levels adjustment window. You'll see the histogram, so you'll be able to optimize the use of the dynamic range without blowing up highlights or shadows. All you have to do is move the ends in the input part so they encompass the part of the histogram that has data. If you need even finer control, CTRL-M will bring up the curves window. Here you can draw a transfer curve to transform the greys in your image. For example, you could increase the contrast of the highlights while keeping the shadows about the same, or any combination of things. Those two are the controls you'll be using 98% of the time when working in Photoshop in BW. Also, if your scanner program lets you save a 16 bit image, you'll always have the original scanned data, maybe you want to save that way and do all the tweaking at home. In any case, it looks like your use of brighness/contrast did anything bad to your image, but it's always good to know for sure. j PS: I also like the uncropped version better. However, it looks like she's looking at you but hasn't yet reacted at you pointing a camera at her. Did you take another picture, say, one second or two later? -- --- Juan J. Buhler | Sr. FX Animator @ PDI | Photos at http://www.jbuhler.com --- - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Hi Shel, for some reason i assumed both sides had been cropped :) Nice shot. Paul - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:06 AM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick Sides? Nope, just one side. It's amazing that three people have commented on the same photo and each sees something different g Paul Jones wrote: The sides are cropped on the cropped version. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Well, I didn't download them both and do a side-by-side comparison but maybe I will. What I did see didn't show much, if any, cropping, though. I expected that you would tighten up on the subject a lot more. Remember, I'm a portrait/wedding shooter and cropping evidently means something different to me than it does to you. This is not to say your viewpoint is wrong, just that it's different from my viewpoint. I thought you had asked a trick question. I should have known better. Len === - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick Look again ... lbparis wrote: I can't see a nickel's worth of difference between the full picture and the cropped picture. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
OK, I downloaded them and did a side-by-side comparison. Only a little of the left side was cropped. The half a guy on the right side looks the same in both pictures and does absolutely nothing for the composition of the picture. But, once again, it's only my opinion. I hope that I'm entitled to it. Len --- - Original Message - From: Paul Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick The sides are cropped on the cropped version. - Original Message - From: lbparis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick I can't see a nickel's worth of difference between the full picture and the cropped picture. Len --- On Thursday 25 October 2001 15:27, you wrote: I borrowed a scanner yesterday and offer these two rough scans for your enjoyment: http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick_crop1.jpg -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Please take no offense, but she looks like the girl in the movie Natural Born Killers. Good photo! Maris - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:27 PM Subject: Applying Lipstick | I borrowed a scanner yesterday and offer these two rough scans for your | enjoyment: | | http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick.jpg | http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick_crop1.jpg | | Comments are welcome. | -- | Shel Belinkoff | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | - | This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, | go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to | visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . | | - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Hi Len ... There's about 15% of the image cropped from the left side. Getting too close would lose the story a bit, as the details of the waiting area would be missing or reduced substantially. Gotta have a sense of place, ya know g. lbparis wrote: Well, I didn't download them both and do a side-by-side comparison but maybe I will. What I did see didn't show much, if any, cropping, though. I expected that you would tighten up on the subject a lot more. Remember, I'm a portrait/wedding shooter and cropping evidently means something different to me than it does to you. This is not to say your viewpoint is wrong, just that it's different from my viewpoint. I thought you had asked a trick question. I should have known better. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
I don't know if it is brilliance or dumb luck, but you did something right. Thanks. On Thursday 25 October 2001 17:51, Shel Belinkoff wrote: Hi Ken ... There's really very little that I can tell you that may be helpful, but here goes: The scanner was a Nikon LC4000, and the picture was scanned at 4000dpi, and was saved in Photoshop format. Later, using PS 6.0, I brought up the picture, sized it, and adjusted the contrast and brightness. I don't know how to use any other commands or tools yet. The computer on which Photoshop is located has a terrible monitor, and gives me no real clue as to how the results might be, so I saved a couple of copies to a floppy disk and brought the pic to my other machine which has a small freeware program called Irfan. The gamma was adjusted a scosh using Irfan, and that was that. IOW, I didn't really do much to it. FWIW, the film is Tri-X @ 400 developed in ID-11 1:1. The camera was a Leica M3 and the lens was just a basic 50mm f/2.0 - although it's possible I used a very old 50mm/1.5. Ken Archer wrote: I like what I see from a quality standpoint and, since I am about to start scanning my own negs (color and bw) I want to know how you did it. -- Kenneth Archer + San Antonio, Texas [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ #24980801 Powered by Linux ++ Mailed by Kmail - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
It must be art ;-) On Thursday 25 October 2001 18:06, you wrote: It's amazing that three people have commented on the same photo and each sees something different g -- Kenneth Archer + San Antonio, Texas [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ #24980801 Powered by Linux ++ Mailed by Kmail - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Slhel - don't use contrast and brightness! Use levels and curves. Set your white point and your black point, either with the levels control or the curves control, and you can then use curves to adjust the contrast better within the image. Contrast and Brightness shift EVERTHING - curves shift only what YOU want to shift. If you don't want to read a lot, at least read Chapter 2 of Dan Margulis's Professional Photoshop 6 available online at http://www.ledet.com/margulis/PP6_Chapter2.pdf - it's written for color but the principles apply to BW images as well. Maris - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick | Hi Ken ... | | There's really very little that I can tell you that may be helpful, but | here goes: | | The scanner was a Nikon LC4000, and the picture was scanned at 4000dpi, | and was saved in Photoshop format. Later, using PS 6.0, I brought up | the picture, sized it, and adjusted the contrast and brightness. I | don't know how to use any other commands or tools yet. The computer on | which Photoshop is located has a terrible monitor, and gives me no real | clue as to how the results might be, so I saved a couple of copies to a | floppy disk and brought the pic to my other machine which has a small | freeware program called Irfan. The gamma was adjusted a scosh using | Irfan, and that was that. IOW, I didn't really do much to it. | | FWIW, the film is Tri-X @ 400 developed in ID-11 1:1. The camera was a | Leica M3 and the lens was just a basic 50mm f/2.0 - although it's | possible I used a very old 50mm/1.5. | | Ken Archer wrote: | | I like what I see from a quality standpoint | and, since I am about to start scanning my | own negs (color and bw) I want to know how | you did it. | | -- | Shel Belinkoff | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | - | This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, | go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to | visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . | - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Absolutely. If we all agreed, that would suggest a problem in itself. By the way, I didn't criticize the picture at all. All I said was that, on first look, I didn't notice any cropping. On closer inspection, I saw a bit of cropping on the left side, not both sides. I followed up with a crop of my own to Shel, privately, and explained my viewpoint. I don't expect everyone to have the same point of view. People don't see things the same way. At least I know I don't. Len --- - Original Message - From: Ken Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick It must be art ;-) On Thursday 25 October 2001 18:06, you wrote: It's amazing that three people have commented on the same photo and each sees something different g -- Kenneth Archer + San Antonio, Texas [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ #24980801 Powered by Linux ++ Mailed by Kmail - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Hi Len ... Had I wanted wanted a tighter shot I'd have moved closer or used a somewhat longer lens. It would be unusual for me to crop that much from a photo. Of course, as a wedding photographer, the BG probably want you to eliminate uncle Harry picking his nose in the background, but for what I do, the ol' boy's finger up his nose would make the photo vbg lbparis wrote: Well, I didn't download them both and do a side-by-side comparison but maybe I will. What I did see didn't show much, if any, cropping, though. I expected that you would tighten up on the subject a lot more. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
I didn't see that. There was just as much of the guy on the right side (to my old eyes) in both pictures. Perhaps it was some sort of a browser error. Len --- - Original Message - From: Paul Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick The sides are cropped on the cropped version. - Original Message - From: lbparis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick I can't see a nickel's worth of difference between the full picture and the cropped picture. Len --- On Thursday 25 October 2001 15:27, you wrote: I borrowed a scanner yesterday and offer these two rough scans for your enjoyment: http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/~belinkoff/applying_lipstick_crop1.jpg -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
That's what makes it interesting, lots of points of view. It's also why I only comment privately to folks' PUG submissions, and then only on the ones I really like. I don't expect many folks to agree with me, and just because I would have done it differently doesn't make it a bad picture. I enjoyed the subject of your picture and the technical skill in the exposure, too. I just have a different point of view. Len - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick Hi Len ... Had I wanted wanted a tighter shot I'd have moved closer or used a somewhat longer lens. It would be unusual for me to crop that much from a photo. Of course, as a wedding photographer, the BG probably want you to eliminate uncle Harry picking his nose in the background, but for what I do, the ol' boy's finger up his nose would make the photo vbg lbparis wrote: Well, I didn't download them both and do a side-by-side comparison but maybe I will. What I did see didn't show much, if any, cropping, though. I expected that you would tighten up on the subject a lot more. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
Nice shots, Shel. The scans look quite good in this low res form. If I were to ask for anything at all, I guess I'd like a bit more contrast, but of course that's monitor dependent and a matter of personal taste as well. Sometimes when I scan BW I do it as an RGB or convert it to RGB once it's in PhotoShop. To convert to RGB in Photoshop, you just go to the Image menu, pull down to mode and choose RGB. That will give you more tools to work with. If I want the appearance of more contrast but my whites are near the limit in terms of losing detail, I'll sometimes go to adjust selective color under the image heading. In adjust selective color, you can select black and pump the blacks up by a few percentage points without affecting the whites. If you go to adjust levels you can work the blacks, midtones, and whites individually with the sliders. A little bit of time spent playing with these will give you a feeling for what they do. And if you screw up, you can always go to the history box and backtrack quite a few steps. (If the history box isn't evident on your desktop, go to the Windows menu and select Show History. When I've finished, I go to the Image menu, pull down to mode and reselect grayscale. The more you play, the more you'll discover. By the way, did you ask the lipstick woman if you could shoot her? If not, did she object? I'm always at a loss as to whether I should ask or just shoot. Paul Shel Belinkoff wrote: Hi Ken ... There's really very little that I can tell you that may be helpful, but here goes: The scanner was a Nikon LC4000, and the picture was scanned at 4000dpi, and was saved in Photoshop format. Later, using PS 6.0, I brought up the picture, sized it, and adjusted the contrast and brightness. I don't know how to use any other commands or tools yet. The computer on which Photoshop is located has a terrible monitor, and gives me no real clue as to how the results might be, so I saved a couple of copies to a floppy disk and brought the pic to my other machine which has a small freeware program called Irfan. The gamma was adjusted a scosh using Irfan, and that was that. IOW, I didn't really do much to it. FWIW, the film is Tri-X @ 400 developed in ID-11 1:1. The camera was a Leica M3 and the lens was just a basic 50mm f/2.0 - although it's possible I used a very old 50mm/1.5. Ken Archer wrote: I like what I see from a quality standpoint and, since I am about to start scanning my own negs (color and bw) I want to know how you did it. -- Shel Belinkoff mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Applying Lipstick
When I looked at your picture, I thought it looked like she was applying her makeup in front of a two-way mirror and that you were invisible to her. Following this line, I thought that tightening up the picture would emphasize, or enhance this viewpoint. My imagination would not let me see the girl doing this without some sort of a mirror. With no mirror for her to be looking into, it just looked way too unnatural. Girls don't usually stand up and apply lipstick without being able to see what they are doing, in this male's opinion. This is probably sexist in a way but I've just seen too many girls applying lipstick while looking at their reflection in something. Len --- - Original Message - From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Applying Lipstick Hi Len ... There's about 15% of the image cropped from the left side. Getting too close would lose the story a bit, as the details of the waiting area would be missing or reduced substantially. Gotta have a sense of place, ya know g. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
