Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 01/11/06, Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't combine them in Photoshop. You multiple expose the same image in the camera. I'd prefer to use a dedicated image stacking program or a pano application like Hugin to align the images. Also Don Williams provided several very interesting links to dedicated software which aligns and stacks images to extend effective DOF about 12 months ago. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Picture of a page 3 girl. Dave On 11/1/06, Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's a stacked image? Shel -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
I note the point about tone gradation in the samples posted on Pentax Japan's web site. But without comparative samples of the same subject taken with, say, a 12 bit A/D converter, I can't tell yet just what the 22 bit converter will give us. One possibility that would enhance tonality in the shadows (somewhat at the expense of the highlights) would be that the 12-bits they include in the RAW file are nonlinear. Currently, all the RAW files are the linear output from the sensors. Converting these 12-bits to gamma-corrected would more evenly distribute the tonality among the highlights, mids, and shadows. Oh, and since 8-bits gamma-correct is enough so long as things aren't post-processed, having 12-bits of gamma corrected gives 16x as much latitude. Hey... it's a possibility. -Cory * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 10/31/06 5:46 AM, Ken Takeshita, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview Last night, I posted a complete and literal translation of the entire interview with Pentax's Tatamiya. However, it did not show up anywhere including the Archive. Has anyone seen it? If not, it was bounced or something as it was very long. If it did not show up, I might put it on my FTP site. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Thank you Ken for the translation and Doug for the posting. You guys are great! Stan On Oct 31, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Doug Brewer wrote: K.Takeshita wrote: On 10/31/06 5:46 AM, Ken Takeshita, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview Last night, I posted a complete and literal translation of the entire interview with Pentax's Tatamiya. However, it did not show up anywhere including the Archive. Has anyone seen it? If not, it was bounced or something as it was very long. If it did not show up, I might put it on my FTP site. Ken Ken, it was held for my approval/disapproval due to its size. I've just gone in and accepted the message and it should show up on the list soon. Generally, oversized messages get booted, along with those having attachments (or my favorites, the seven pages of unedited previous posts with one line tacked on the top/bottom), but I figured this one was important enough to keep intact. Sorry for the delay, Doug -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
K.Takeshita wrote: On 10/31/06 5:46 AM, Ken Takeshita, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview Last night, I posted a complete and literal translation of the entire interview with Pentax's Tatamiya. However, it did not show up anywhere including the Archive. Has anyone seen it? If not, it was bounced or something as it was very long. If it did not show up, I might put it on my FTP site. Ken Ken, it was held for my approval/disapproval due to its size. I've just gone in and accepted the message and it should show up on the list soon. Generally, oversized messages get booted, along with those having attachments (or my favorites, the seven pages of unedited previous posts with one line tacked on the top/bottom), but I figured this one was important enough to keep intact. Sorry for the delay, Doug -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 10/31/06 11:50 AM, Jaume Lahuerta, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks a lot for your effort, Ken You are welcome. Invoice follows :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 31.10.2006, at 15:05 , K.Takeshita wrote: Last night, I posted a complete and literal translation of the entire interview with Pentax's Tatamiya. However, it did not show up anywhere including the Archive. Has anyone seen it? If not, it was bounced or something as it was very long. If it did not show up, I might put it on my FTP site. Sorry Ken, I'm afraid it didn't arrive here. Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Ken, Never arrived here either. I think the bit gods ate it. ;-) G On Oct 31, 2006, at 6:05 AM, K.Takeshita wrote: On 10/31/06 5:46 AM, Ken Takeshita, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview Last night, I posted a complete and literal translation of the entire interview with Pentax's Tatamiya. However, it did not show up anywhere including the Archive. Has anyone seen it? If not, it was bounced or something as it was very long. If it did not show up, I might put it on my FTP site. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Hi! Ken, thank you very much. This info has advantage of being factual and not rumourous... -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 10/31/06 11:27 AM, Lawrence Kwan, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it has exceeded the message length limit (someone said it was ?20KB). Try splitting it up into multiple smaller parts and it should get through. Thought so. I thought about breaking it up, but did not realize how long it was! :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 31.10.2006, at 17:13 , K.Takeshita wrote: Thanks Sylwek, Well, I try one more time and if it does not work, I will upload it to my FTP. Ken, it has just come!!! Post time is 4:33 AM, it arrived to me around 5 PM :-))) Many thanks for translation!!! :-) BTW Ken - can I post your translation to Polish Pentax Users' forum please? Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Thanks Ken. Thats very informative. rg PS: can you email me offline? I tried to contact you via your email, but got no response [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview Q; Reaction and accomplishment after releasing K100D in July? A: Order level literally beyond our imagination which is still continuing. Japan domestic market is fairly fulfilled now, but the demand from EU market wherein Pentax DSLRs have not particularly been strong is now overwhelming and there are still some regions where the delivery commitment is not fulfilled. We made the parts purchase 1 to 2 months in advance which is now enabling us to catch up. When K100D was planned, we made proper cost saving and planned to sell exactly what we produced. At the same time, it was difficult for us to speculate if 6mp, in spite of the new model this year, could be accepted in the mar -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, K.Takeshita wrote: Last night, I posted a complete and literal translation of the entire interview with Pentax's Tatamiya. However, it did not show up anywhere including the Archive. Has anyone seen it? No, it did not show up. I think it has exceeded the message length limit (someone said it was ?20KB). Try splitting it up into multiple smaller parts and it should get through. -- --Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.vex.net/~lawrence -- --Tungsten T3 Enhanced DIA KeyboardNokia Ringtone Convertor-- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 10/31/06 11:30 AM, Sylwester Pietrzyk, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, it has just come!!! Post time is 4:33 AM, it arrived to me around 5 PM :-))) Many thanks for translation!!! :-) I see list meister's (Doug) post in the Archive that he just approved my post. It was indeed too long. I'll be careful next time :-). I do not see Doug's post here yet, but my thanks to him. BTW Ken - can I post your translation to Polish Pentax Users' forum please? As you wish :-). Credit PDML Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 10/31/06 10:55 AM, Sylwester Pietrzyk, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry Ken, I'm afraid it didn't arrive here. Thanks Sylwek, Well, I try one more time and if it does not work, I will upload it to my FTP. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview Q; Reaction and accomplishment after releasing K100D in July? A: Order level literally beyond our imagination which is still continuing. Japan domestic market is fairly fulfilled now, but the demand from EU market wherein Pentax DSLRs have not particularly been strong is now overwhelming and there are still some regions where the delivery commitment is not fulfilled. We made the parts purchase 1 to 2 months in advance which is now enabling us to catch up. When K100D was planned, we made proper cost saving and planned to sell exactly what we produced. At the same time, it was difficult for us to speculate if 6mp, in spite of the new model this year, could be accepted in the market. However, once released, we fund that the general updates and the total maturity of the product were highly appreciated, which was beyond our forecast. Q: Any user requests for the further improvements? A: Frankly, not many requests for the performance of the camera. Perhaps a comment like maybe a bit heavier etc, but did not mean it had to be lighter. We believe the market had approved the total maturity of the 6mp products continuing from *istD. Also, we made the target users very clear and convey that message. Because of that, not many demand for the improvements or the usability from advanced users. There were some requests for an optional battery grip or the expandability as the system. Q: Now the intended target for K10D? A: K10D's concept is very clear. Looking back our past line up of DSLRs, *istD was somewhat different but *istDS and the subsequent models were all rather for the entry level market. In other words, Pentax in the past did not have higher grade models. So, we decided that we would create a line up (note: upgrade path?) and create an excellent higher end model. The target users are perhaps in the age bracket of 40's to 50's, who have been the traditional photo enthusiasts and love the photography and cameras. We have been developing this model with always imagining this target in our heads. Q: Any pro-use considered? A: Not too conscious about the pro-use. Pros tend to specialize in their own genre and choose cameras that are best suitable for that purpose in terms of functions and setting etc. In contrast, K10D would be most useful for advanced amateurs who shoot many different subjects. [For those who loves the photography, we could create the best and user friendly camera] Re the new image processing engine, PRIME Q: Any collaboration w/Samsung Tech Win? A: Since K10D has been developed as the Pentax's product, not much collaboration occurred. However, Sumsung tech's engineers have written part of codes for the software. The purpose of the collaboration was to utilize each other's strength. Therefore, the optics and hardware are naturally the Pentax's original. Q; Reason for adopting 10.2mp sensor for K10D? A: Considering that the k10D is supposed to be a higher end model, higher resolution sensor than 6.1mp was considered a necessity. K100D users would be content with A4 size printing but there would be those who wish to do a bit more such as post-processing and cropping etc. Although I said we were not too conscious about the pro-use, there were some pros who stated their dissatisfaction of 6.1mp cameras when submitting images to publishers etc, thus needing more than 10mp. However, we would never agree with the simple perception that the camera is good simply because it uses the 10.2mp sensor. We are not developing our own sensors and mp is totally dependent on sensor makers. For this very reason, not just choosing the higher resolution sensors won't be enough, but we had to make our own unique approach to the image creation. If we consider what customers would expect from us, it would certainly be excellent images. In order to respond to this demand, we planned to design the maximum we possibly could. Specifically, they are the use of 22bit A/D converter, and a new image processing engine for the faster processing. K10D's specs were determined by evaluating overall performance of these components. Q: What about the new A/D converter and the new image processing circuitry? A: Let me explain the process of creating images from the CCD. CCD convert the optical info through the lens into electronic signal. Then the analogue signal which the CCD spits out, depending on the amount of light, and the A/D converter converts it into digital signal which will then be fed into the image processing engine (translator: OK, OK next! :-). In order to create RAW data, minimum 12 bit converter was usually enough for the proper gradation and some makers were using 14 bit processing. However, for K10D, we chose the 22bit converter in order to more finely digitize the smooth analogue output, and it is fed into the processing engine with more amount of information. This was done in order to enable the image processing with our own unique
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 10/31/06 11:23 AM, Doug Brewer, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, it was held for my approval/disapproval due to its size. I've just gone in and accepted the message and it should show up on the list soon. Thanks Doug! Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 10/31/06 11:07 AM, Godfrey DiGiorgi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Never arrived here either. I think the bit gods ate it. ;-) Yeah, I actually think so. I'll give him a case of beer and hope God will be kind to me :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Thanks a lot for your effort, Ken - Mensaje original De: K.Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Enviado: martes, 31 de octubre, 2006 4:33:39 Asunto: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview (...) __ LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo. Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto. http://es.voice.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 31.10.2006, at 17:40 , K.Takeshita wrote: I see list meister's (Doug) post in the Archive that he just approved my post. It was indeed too long. I'll be careful next time :-). I do not see Doug's post here yet, but my thanks to him. Bad, bad Doug, kept us uninformed for 13 hours :-) As you wish :-). Thanks :-) Credit PDML Of course :-) Cheers, Sylwek -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Ken, Thanks for posting this. It was interesting to note that there is a preference for different camera sizes in different markets. Looks like there's a lot more to designing a camera than might appear on the surface. Shel [Original Message] From: K.Takeshita Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview [...] In the Japan domestic market, the compact and light weight design of Pentax cameras have been highly regarded and there was some initial concerns about the size and the weight of K10D. However, in overseas market, the K10D is the right size and weight. It was even said that the previous models were too small and light. Also, considering of the position in the market of this camera, we believe the presence is an important factor and there should be no problem of K10d's size. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Thanks Ken! Kostas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Excellent Ken, thanks very much. John On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:40:36 -, K.Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/31/06 11:30 AM, Sylwester Pietrzyk, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, it has just come!!! Post time is 4:33 AM, it arrived to me around 5 PM :-))) Many thanks for translation!!! :-) I see list meister's (Doug) post in the Archive that he just approved my post. It was indeed too long. I'll be careful next time :-). I do not see Doug's post here yet, but my thanks to him. BTW Ken - can I post your translation to Polish Pentax Users' forum please? As you wish :-). Credit PDML Ken -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Ken, this is wonderful information. Thanks very much for the translation. You are a great asset for us. Compressed RAW? This is news. I assume that in Japan there have been discussions of noise levels at high ISO in the K10D, just as there have been here. I interpret this interview as an attempt to quell the concerns and speculations that have been going around. I know many list members have been bothered by the expression of these concerns, but guess what? I suspect that our expressions of concern got our famously uncommunicative company to scatter a few more crumbs of information our way. I note the point about tone gradation in the samples posted on Pentax Japan's web site. But without comparative samples of the same subject taken with, say, a 12 bit A/D converter, I can't tell yet just what the 22 bit converter will give us. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On Oct 30, 2006, at 7:33 PM, K.Takeshita wrote: Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview ... [snip] Thanks very much, Ken. It's nice to read an authoritative engineering person that knows the design describe it, and what was said fits well with my understanding of the camera based on its specification. I look forward to having mine, whenever it arrives. Meanwhile, I have a lot of photographs to process... Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Ditto! I'm sure it allayed noise concerns for many and especially those who might have designs on astro-photography. Did it help, Tom? Jack --- Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, this is wonderful information. Thanks very much for the translation. You are a great asset for us. Compressed RAW? This is news. I assume that in Japan there have been discussions of noise levels at high ISO in the K10D, just as there have been here. I interpret this interview as an attempt to quell the concerns and speculations that have been going around. I know many list members have been bothered by the expression of these concerns, but guess what? I suspect that our expressions of concern got our famously uncommunicative company to scatter a few more crumbs of information our way. I note the point about tone gradation in the samples posted on Pentax Japan's web site. But without comparative samples of the same subject taken with, say, a 12 bit A/D converter, I can't tell yet just what the 22 bit converter will give us. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
K.Takeshita wrote: Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview... Thanks, Ken! I'm more excited than ever about the new camera now. It sounds as if they're really going for the approach they used with the original ist-D: Do very little image processing in-camera and assume the photographer knows what he's doing (gasp!) in post. (It also leads me to suspect we may see a more consumer-oriented 10-megapixel camera next year.) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 09:41:36AM -0800, Joseph Tainter wrote: Ken, this is wonderful information. Thanks very much for the translation. You are a great asset for us. Hear, hear! Compressed RAW? This is news. It's pretty much a last-minute change to the firmware (for a while the Pentax Japan web pages didn't mention it). It's been discussed in several of the dpreview Pentax forum threads. Basically, at present, PEF files will be compressed (yielding an average file size of around 10-12MB, initial tests suggest), while DNG files will not be compressed, so will be around 17MB in size. I'm sure we'll see compressed DNG files in a firmware update, but presumably Pentax do not yet have code that implements the compression format (or formats) mandated by DNG. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
K.Takeshita wrote: On 10/31/06 11:23 AM, Doug Brewer, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, it was held for my approval/disapproval due to its size. I've just gone in and accepted the message and it should show up on the list soon. Thanks Doug! Ken No problem. I should point out that anyone wishing to respond to your translation would do well to employ some snippage before posting it. Since the translation is already over the size limit, adding lines to it will only make it larger and get it snared in the limit trap. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
(It also leads me to suspect we may see a more consumer-oriented 10-megapixel camera next year.) - Oh, of course. The 10 mp sensor will migrate downward into something like the K100D body. Then it will be interesting to see what Pentax does about noise reduction. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
(It also leads me to suspect we may see a more consumer-oriented 10-megapixel camera next year.) - P.S. And meanwhile, we can all switch to spending a year or two speculating about the noise levels in the 12 mp CMOS sensor of the K1D. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
I'm still going to wait and compare the noise based on side by side reviews. The full translation does come across better. It also is likely possible to reduce overall noise by shooting at shorter exposure times and stacking images. The stack will stack up noise just like it does with the signal, but if each stacked image is less than half as noisy as it's double-ISO cousin, results could be favorable. Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:57:23 -0800 (PST) Ditto! I'm sure it allayed noise concerns for many and especially those who might have designs on astro-photography. Did it help, Tom? Jack --- Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, this is wonderful information. Thanks very much for the translation. You are a great asset for us. Compressed RAW? This is news. I assume that in Japan there have been discussions of noise levels at high ISO in the K10D, just as there have been here. I interpret this interview as an attempt to quell the concerns and speculations that have been going around. I know many list members have been bothered by the expression of these concerns, but guess what? I suspect that our expressions of concern got our famously uncommunicative company to scatter a few more crumbs of information our way. I note the point about tone gradation in the samples posted on Pentax Japan's web site. But without comparative samples of the same subject taken with, say, a 12 bit A/D converter, I can't tell yet just what the 22 bit converter will give us. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
You can do that, Joe ... I plan to wait for the K10D to hit the shelves, see what results people are getting, and see how well the camera fits my needs. Mental gymnastics aren't my strength. Shel [Original Message] From: Joseph Tainter P.S. And meanwhile, we can all switch to spending a year or two speculating about the noise levels in the 12 mp CMOS sensor of the K1D. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
LOL There y'go Joe speculation based on your own speculative comments ;-)) Shel [Original Message] From: Joseph Tainter (It also leads me to suspect we may see a more consumer-oriented 10-megapixel camera next year.) - Oh, of course. The 10 mp sensor will migrate downward into something like the K100D body. Then it will be interesting to see what Pentax does about noise reduction. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
A good plan. I'm just going to buy one and use it. I sold one of my Ds, so I need a second body. I'm absolutely certain the K10D will outperform my D, and It will cost less. (I figure it will be super for shooting cars off a tripod at ISO 100. Ditto for tabletop or young ladies in the studio. Paul On Oct 31, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Shel Belinkoff wrote: You can do that, Joe ... I plan to wait for the K10D to hit the shelves, see what results people are getting, and see how well the camera fits my needs. Mental gymnastics aren't my strength. Shel [Original Message] From: Joseph Tainter P.S. And meanwhile, we can all switch to spending a year or two speculating about the noise levels in the 12 mp CMOS sensor of the K1D. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
If you can do that, the results are actually significantly better. The signal, being signal, does just add up. But the noise, being random, doesn't simply add; sometimes it's positive, and sometimes it's negative, so there is some cancelling. In fact if you stack up N images you get N times the signal, but only sqrt(N) times the noise (strictly true only for a gaussian noise distribution, but in practice correct for just about any noise you're going to see in the real world). On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 02:01:13PM -0700, Tom C wrote: I'm still going to wait and compare the noise based on side by side reviews. The full translation does come across better. It also is likely possible to reduce overall noise by shooting at shorter exposure times and stacking images. The stack will stack up noise just like it does with the signal, but if each stacked image is less than half as noisy as it's double-ISO cousin, results could be favorable. Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:57:23 -0800 (PST) Ditto! I'm sure it allayed noise concerns for many and especially those who might have designs on astro-photography. Did it help, Tom? Jack --- Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, this is wonderful information. Thanks very much for the translation. You are a great asset for us. Compressed RAW? This is news. I assume that in Japan there have been discussions of noise levels at high ISO in the K10D, just as there have been here. I interpret this interview as an attempt to quell the concerns and speculations that have been going around. I know many list members have been bothered by the expression of these concerns, but guess what? I suspect that our expressions of concern got our famously uncommunicative company to scatter a few more crumbs of information our way. I note the point about tone gradation in the samples posted on Pentax Japan's web site. But without comparative samples of the same subject taken with, say, a 12 bit A/D converter, I can't tell yet just what the 22 bit converter will give us. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Thanks for the additonal clarification on that John. I appreciate it. Tom C. From: John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:33:51 -0500 If you can do that, the results are actually significantly better. The signal, being signal, does just add up. But the noise, being random, doesn't simply add; sometimes it's positive, and sometimes it's negative, so there is some cancelling. In fact if you stack up N images you get N times the signal, but only sqrt(N) times the noise (strictly true only for a gaussian noise distribution, but in practice correct for just about any noise you're going to see in the real world). On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 02:01:13PM -0700, Tom C wrote: I'm still going to wait and compare the noise based on side by side reviews. The full translation does come across better. It also is likely possible to reduce overall noise by shooting at shorter exposure times and stacking images. The stack will stack up noise just like it does with the signal, but if each stacked image is less than half as noisy as it's double-ISO cousin, results could be favorable. Tom C. From: Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:57:23 -0800 (PST) Ditto! I'm sure it allayed noise concerns for many and especially those who might have designs on astro-photography. Did it help, Tom? Jack --- Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, this is wonderful information. Thanks very much for the translation. You are a great asset for us. Compressed RAW? This is news. I assume that in Japan there have been discussions of noise levels at high ISO in the K10D, just as there have been here. I interpret this interview as an attempt to quell the concerns and speculations that have been going around. I know many list members have been bothered by the expression of these concerns, but guess what? I suspect that our expressions of concern got our famously uncommunicative company to scatter a few more crumbs of information our way. I note the point about tone gradation in the samples posted on Pentax Japan's web site. But without comparative samples of the same subject taken with, say, a 12 bit A/D converter, I can't tell yet just what the 22 bit converter will give us. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 30/10/06, K.Takeshita, discombobulated, unleashed: Q: Any user requests for the further improvements? A: Frankly, not many requests for the performance of the camera. Proof they do not monitor the list. Or they do and filter jco out -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
What's a stacked image? Shel [Original Message] From: Tom C It also is likely possible to reduce overall noise by shooting at shorter exposure times and stacking images. The stack will stack up noise just like it does with the signal, but if each stacked image is less than half as noisy as it's double-ISO cousin, results could be favorable. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 30/10/06, K.Takeshita, discombobulated, unleashed: [translation snipped] OK, that's it. It says that this will continue to Part II. Stay tuned. I did this translation real quick and have not even proof read. Usual misspelling, double negatives or any other grammatical eroors have to be forgiven :-). Ken, I am in awe. That was a lot of work, above and beyond the call of duty. Well done and thanks. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On 31/10/06, Joseph Tainter, discombobulated, unleashed: P.S. And meanwhile, we can all switch to spending a year or two speculating about the noise levels in the 12 mp CMOS sensor of the K1D. ROTFLMAO -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:42:11 -, Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31/10/06, Joseph Tainter, discombobulated, unleashed: P.S. And meanwhile, we can all switch to spending a year or two speculating about the noise levels in the 12 mp CMOS sensor of the K1D. ROTFLMAO Unfortunately, he's serious. John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
I've just came home from work. When asking your assistance I did not realise how long the interview was. I hope you know touch ;-) I'm still digesting the interview. It's quite a mouthful, a lot to process, but very valuable information. Thank you very much Ken. You're the man ;-) Tim Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of K.Takeshita Sent: 31. oktober 2006 04:34 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview snip -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
I've just came home from work. When asking your assistance I did not realise how long the interview was. I hope you know touch ;-) I'm still digesting the interview. It's quite a mouthful, a lot to process, but very valuable information. Thank you very much Ken. You're the man ;-) Tim Mostly harmless (just plain Norwegian) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of K.Takeshita Sent: 31. oktober 2006 04:34 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview snip -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
It's when you combine virtually identical multiple exposures, stacking them to reach a final image that has a total exposure time equal to the sum of the individual exposures. It's useful in astrophotography for a number of reaons. The main one is that a bunch of short, say 6 individual 30 second exposures, can be combined The result is the accumulated photons of a 3 minute exposure. The neat thing is that tracking error (irregularities in the motor drive or polar alignment) can be virtually eliminated, because software automatically aligns/registers the individual images so they overlay each other perfectly. The additional benefit we're talking about here is that the sensor can be run at both a lower ISO and for a shorter exposure duration, both of which reduce noise. Tom C. From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:38:30 -0800 What's a stacked image? Shel [Original Message] From: Tom C It also is likely possible to reduce overall noise by shooting at shorter exposure times and stacking images. The stack will stack up noise just like it does with the signal, but if each stacked image is less than half as noisy as it's double-ISO cousin, results could be favorable. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Thanks for going to the effort Ken. Dave At 11:33 AM 31/10/2006, K.Takeshita wrote: Quick and dirty translation of Tatamiya Interview snip OK, that's it. It says that this will continue to Part II. Stay tuned. I did this translation real quick and have not even proof read. Usual misspelling, double negatives or any other grammatical eroors have to be forgiven :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Tom C wrote: It's when you combine virtually identical multiple exposures, stacking them to reach a final image that has a total exposure time equal to the sum of the individual exposures. It's useful in astrophotography for a number of reaons. The main one is that a bunch of short, say 6 individual 30 second exposures, can be combined The result is the accumulated photons of a 3 minute exposure. The neat thing is that tracking error (irregularities in the motor drive or polar alignment) can be virtually eliminated, because software automatically aligns/registers the individual images so they overlay each other perfectly. The additional benefit we're talking about here is that the sensor can be run at both a lower ISO and for a shorter exposure duration, both of which reduce noise. Tom C. Aha. Never thought of it that way! Thanks! Yeah, who asked me, right? bg keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
Please excuse my ignorance, but how exactly do you stack them in Photoshop? I'm familiar wit combining images of different exposures, but how exactly would this work? Quoting Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It's when you combine virtually identical multiple exposures, stacking them to reach a final image that has a total exposure time equal to the sum of the individual exposures. It's useful in astrophotography for a number of reaons. The main one is that a bunch of short, say 6 individual 30 second exposures, can be combined The result is the accumulated photons of a 3 minute exposure. The neat thing is that tracking error (irregularities in the motor drive or polar alignment) can be virtually eliminated, because software automatically aligns/registers the individual images so they overlay each other perfectly. The additional benefit we're talking about here is that the sensor can be run at both a lower ISO and for a shorter exposure duration, both of which reduce noise. Tom C. From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:38:30 -0800 What's a stacked image? Shel [Original Message] From: Tom C It also is likely possible to reduce overall noise by shooting at shorter exposure times and stacking images. The stack will stack up noise just like it does with the signal, but if each stacked image is less than half as noisy as it's double-ISO cousin, results could be favorable. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
You don't combine them in Photoshop. You multiple expose the same image in the camera. Paul On Oct 31, 2006, at 8:53 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please excuse my ignorance, but how exactly do you stack them in Photoshop? I'm familiar wit combining images of different exposures, but how exactly would this work? Quoting Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It's when you combine virtually identical multiple exposures, stacking them to reach a final image that has a total exposure time equal to the sum of the individual exposures. It's useful in astrophotography for a number of reaons. The main one is that a bunch of short, say 6 individual 30 second exposures, can be combined The result is the accumulated photons of a 3 minute exposure. The neat thing is that tracking error (irregularities in the motor drive or polar alignment) can be virtually eliminated, because software automatically aligns/registers the individual images so they overlay each other perfectly. The additional benefit we're talking about here is that the sensor can be run at both a lower ISO and for a shorter exposure duration, both of which reduce noise. Tom C. From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:38:30 -0800 What's a stacked image? Shel [Original Message] From: Tom C It also is likely possible to reduce overall noise by shooting at shorter exposure times and stacking images. The stack will stack up noise just like it does with the signal, but if each stacked image is less than half as noisy as it's double-ISO cousin, results could be favorable. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
No, you don't multiple expose the same frame. You take multiple frames(many exposures) then use specific software designed for the purpose to stack the images to net one better image. There are several folks who specialize in this software, from relatively cheap to relative expensive. They are all designed around using with telescopes and either dslr cameras or ccd cameras specific to astrophotography. It turns out that the Canon cameras are very well suited for this purpose, followed by the Nikon D50. The new D200 is also very promising. My isdDL is pretty noisy at exposure times longer than 3 minutes and iso's above 800. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
ahh. Right, my DL can't do that but i think the K10D can Quoting Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You don't combine them in Photoshop. You multiple expose the same image in the camera. Paul On Oct 31, 2006, at 8:53 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please excuse my ignorance, but how exactly do you stack them in Photoshop? I'm familiar wit combining images of different exposures, but how exactly would this work? Quoting Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It's when you combine virtually identical multiple exposures, stacking them to reach a final image that has a total exposure time equal to the sum of the individual exposures. It's useful in astrophotography for a number of reaons. The main one is that a bunch of short, say 6 individual 30 second exposures, can be combined The result is the accumulated photons of a 3 minute exposure. The neat thing is that tracking error (irregularities in the motor drive or polar alignment) can be virtually eliminated, because software automatically aligns/registers the individual images so they overlay each other perfectly. The additional benefit we're talking about here is that the sensor can be run at both a lower ISO and for a shorter exposure duration, both of which reduce noise. Tom C. From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:38:30 -0800 What's a stacked image? Shel [Original Message] From: Tom C It also is likely possible to reduce overall noise by shooting at shorter exposure times and stacking images. The stack will stack up noise just like it does with the signal, but if each stacked image is less than half as noisy as it's double-ISO cousin, results could be favorable. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
- Original Message - From: Tom C Subject: Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview It's when you combine virtually identical multiple exposures, stacking them to reach a final image that has a total exposure time equal to the sum of the individual exposures. I use that technique from time to time when shooting flowing water with the view camera. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: K10D aimed as D200 killer/Translation of interview
On Oct 31, 2006, at 6:12 PM, Walter Hamler wrote: No, you don't multiple expose the same frame. You take multiple frames(many exposures) then use specific software designed for the purpose to stack the images to net one better image. There are several folks who specialize in this software, from relatively cheap to relative expensive. They are all designed around using with telescopes and either dslr cameras or ccd cameras specific to astrophotography. It turns out that the Canon cameras are very well suited for this purpose, followed by the Nikon D50. The new D200 is also very promising. My isdDL is pretty noisy at exposure times longer than 3 minutes and iso's above 800. During the Mars close approach round about 2003 I fitted a web-cam to my telescope and tracked Mars through an evening's viewing. Some of this kind of software stacked and layered it, rendered it into a 40 second movie, the results were astonishing. You could see the planet turn, identify features and stuff. Now I know I have it around here on my archive drives somewhere... sigh Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
