Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 19, 2011, at 3:56 PM, steve harley wrote: i would look for a local ISP that offers ADSL over the telephone provider's network (i believe traditional copper-wire pairs are required to be available to other providers, but fiber optic is not); i have such an arrangement in Denver -- for twelve years i have rented the wires from Qwest but ForeThought.net is my ISP, and i get prompt, helpful service from ForeThought Thanks for the suggestion, Steve. I'm almost certainly going to drop my ATT wireless for pay-as-you-go service, and when I do they may want to stop providing DSL. I'll be checking out local alternatives before I do. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT discussion of mail and philosophy (was: re: OT Mac users only)
On 3/16/2011 10:01 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote: You're conflating temporal linearity and topicality. Mark! Double Mark! Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
From: Eric Weir On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:31 PM, John Sessoms wrote: Less than you would have gotten from BellSouth ... which was ZIP Who do you recommend in the South? I migrated to Bellsouth from Mindspring/Earthlink after their shipped their vaunted customer service offshore. I can't recommend anyone. There is no ISP that I'm aware of who offers good customer service and/or technical support. I also have used Mindspring and Earthlink. I would rate my experiences (in order from BAD to WORSE): TWC RoadRunner (Cable) Earthlink (dialup) BellSouth (ADSL) . . . . Mindspring (dialup) I can't actually say Mindspring had the worst customer service and/or technical support only because when I was with them they provided NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-19 07:05 , John Sessoms wrote: From: Eric Weir Who do you recommend in the South? I migrated to Bellsouth from Mindspring/Earthlink after their shipped their vaunted customer service offshore. I can't recommend anyone. There is no ISP that I'm aware of who offers good customer service and/or technical support. i would look for a local ISP that offers ADSL over the telephone provider's network (i believe traditional copper-wire pairs are required to be available to other providers, but fiber optic is not); i have such an arrangement in Denver -- for twelve years i have rented the wires from Qwest but ForeThought.net is my ISP, and i get prompt, helpful service from ForeThought -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
From: Eric Weir On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Cotty wrote: On 16/3/11, Eric Weir, discombobulated, unleashed: My needs are pretty basic and simple, though. Eric, we should have a drink sometime. Gosh, Cotty. I don't know what to say. Do you think it might solve my problems with Mail? Might not solve 'em, but if you drink enough you won't care about 'em anymore. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
From: Eric Weir On Mar 16, 2011, at 10:59 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Your service provider is bellsouth.com. Talk to them. Thanks, Godfrey. Bellsouth doesn't exist anymore. It was bought out by ATT several years ago. I'll see if I can get any help from them. Less than you would have gotten from BellSouth ... which was ZIP! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 3/17/2011 1:31 PM, John Sessoms wrote: From: Eric Weir On Mar 16, 2011, at 10:59 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Your service provider is bellsouth.com. Talk to them. Thanks, Godfrey. Bellsouth doesn't exist anymore. It was bought out by ATT several years ago. I'll see if I can get any help from them. Less than you would have gotten from BellSouth ... which was ZIP! Actually it's worse than ATT, it's SBC, which was so bad that, when they bought ATT they rebranded themselves as ATT. If you're so bad that being the Phone Company makes you look better, well... -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 17, 2011, at 1:31 PM, John Sessoms wrote: Less than you would have gotten from BellSouth ... which was ZIP Who do you recommend in the South? I migrated to Bellsouth from Mindspring/Earthlink after their shipped their vaunted customer service offshore. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:33 PM, steve harley p...@paper-ape.com wrote: that's not a hierarchy, it's just a bunch, and a bunch that's sorted by time, instead of which messages replied to which; it's not really nested at all because the first item is a psuedo-item that changes depending which messages are marked read Mail isn't naturally multi-threaded. It's not a discussion, it's a timeline. no, it marks a message when it has been _displayed_; this makes it awkward to glance at a message body before deciding whether to read it now Oh, you want it to display a content preview. Just use the web client for Mail instead. You want your mail application to operate like a forum message browser. so i learned a couple of things, but the features at the top of my list are the ones that turn me off of Mail the most; i've let go of several others over the years; i'd love Mail to have more flexibility because as i said, the integration with other tools is nicely done It works fine for me. But that's why they make so many flavors of ice cream too. :-) -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 15/3/11, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed: I've had this sort of stall and difficulties with accessing a send server happen from time to time. It has *always* resolved to be a problem at the server, nothing that Mail can do about it. I use Powermail on a Mac and it sometimes stutters and stalls when sending/receiving. Nothing my end. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 15, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I've had this sort of stall and difficulties with accessing a send server happen from time to time. It has *always* resolved to be a problem at the server, nothing that Mail can do about it. That gives me hope. On my system this is so erratic. One message will go, the next one hangs up, then the next one goes. The hang ups are long enough that I can imagine failing to communicate in time because of it. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 15, 2011, at 5:39 PM, steve harley wrote: i don't know about David, but i dislike certain simplifications Apple has applied in Mail: - it doesn't display threads hierarchically, - it can't be stopped from marking messages as read, - it doesn't display what folders have new mail since they were last viewed, - it can't have different view preferences (such as sorting or whether threads are folded) per mailbox, - it encourages top-posting, - it doesn't display time in the list pane ... but Mail.app is very smooth, and the integration is enticing -- i use it for archiving (since it stores in maildir format which works well with Spotlight) and for minor accounts I'm very happy with it. Hardly anything I'd like, except maybe tagging of messages. Question: Is it possible to filter outgoing messages, i.e., so copies get filed in the appropriate mailboxes rather than being dumped in the sent folder? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-16 11:12 , Eric Weir wrote: I'm very happy with it. Hardly anything I'd like, except maybe tagging of messages. there's at least one plug-in for tagging messages in Mail: http://www.indev.ca/MailTags.html tags (a la Mac OS labels) are built-into Thunderbird, where i use them a lot Question: Is it possible to filter outgoing messages, i.e., so copies get filed in the appropriate mailboxes rather than being dumped in the sent folder? in Mail, no (unless you can find a plug-in); the standard workaround is to bcc yourself and set up filters to catch those bcc's, but you'll also have a copy in Sent; several other email clients, such as Thunderbird, have an explicit option to store replies in the folder of the message to which you've replied -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:08 AM, Bruce Walker wrote: Did you learn about tcpdump or Wireshark during your year of living Linuxly? You could inspect a packet trace of the email transfer to see if some other weirdness is going on. Nope, not familiar with those. I should've asked Godfrey how he determined it was a server issue. Also, if he was able to get it fixed, how he did so. Talking with his provider? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-16 00:34 , Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:33 PM, steve harleyp...@paper-ape.com wrote: that's not a hierarchy, it's just a bunch, and a bunch that's sorted by time, instead of which messages replied to which; it's not really nested at all because the first item is a psuedo-item that changes depending which messages are marked read Mail isn't naturally multi-threaded. It's not a discussion, it's a timeline. of course it is a discussion, and the timeline approach fails as the discussion branches a beauty of email is that the discussion need not be linear -- it's not a strict analog of a verbal discussion; people intuitively know this; they go off on pun romps while others are answering the serious question in a thread or getting political, and the timelines of these branches overlap, but a proper display sorts it all out and helps the reader follow the branching, decide what to read and when; for example i just bailed out of the twicification and hamburger branches of the SMC 15 thread no, it marks a message when it has been _displayed_; this makes it awkward to glance at a message body before deciding whether to read it now Oh, you want it to display a content preview. Just use the web client for Mail instead. no i don't want that -- it was just one example of how touching a message is not the same as reading it; there are several practical implications and also a principle at work here It works fine for me. But that's why they make so many flavors of ice cream too. :-) i'll resist the standard Apple makes only one flavor reply and ask is an email client a flavor of ice cream, or is it an ice cream shop, or what? how about if food had a preferences menu item, and if you didn't like something about it you could change it as you ate it -- too salty, dial it down / needs more chocolate chips ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 1:21 PM, steve harley wrote: in Mail, no (unless you can find a plug-in); the standard workaround is to bcc yourself and set up filters to catch those bcc's, but you'll also have a copy in Sent; several other email clients, such as Thunderbird, have an explicit option to store replies in the folder of the message to which you've replied Thanks, Steve. I was a long time Thunderbird user prior to switching to Mac. Even continued with it there for a while, but when I tried Mail I found it a cleaner approach to the things I needed. My needs are pretty basic and simple, though. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi gdigio...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 10:06 AM, David J Brooks pentko...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: I guess it's not working afterall. It has started hanging up again. Thanks again for the suggestion, though. Looked promising there at the beginning. I did not like MAIL, and only used it once i n a while. Why? I had a lot of people saying they were not receiving emails from me when i used it. At that time is was still trying to sell pictures and that meant lost sales and PO'd customers. So i stopped using it. I'm not up on the innards of email to find out what was going wrong. Dave I use Mail every day for hundreds and hundreds of messages. It's integration with calendar, address book and ichat services is very effective. I've had this sort of stall and difficulties with accessing a send server happen from time to time. It has *always* resolved to be a problem at the server, nothing that Mail can do about it. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
I called my service provider and determined through testing that they had a problem. They fixed it promptly. ;-) On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:08 AM, Bruce Walker wrote: Did you learn about tcpdump or Wireshark during your year of living Linuxly? You could inspect a packet trace of the email transfer to see if some other weirdness is going on. Nope, not familiar with those. I should've asked Godfrey how he determined it was a server issue. Also, if he was able to get it fixed, how he did so. Talking with his provider? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 11-03-16 1:22 PM, Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:08 AM, Bruce Walker wrote: Did you learn about tcpdump or Wireshark during your year of living Linuxly? You could inspect a packet trace of the email transfer to see if some other weirdness is going on. Nope, not familiar with those. I should've asked Godfrey how he determined it was a server issue. Also, if he was able to get it fixed, how he did so. Talking with his provider? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net The problem here is that ISP's are taking the brunt of all email submission now. That means their servers have to be able to handle tens to hundreds of thousands of clients passing in email every hour. Inevitably there will be times when they are overloaded and drop connections or won't accept new ones. That's quite possibly what you are experiencing. As big as they are, I've had this problem with Gmail. I configure Thunderbird to connect to Gmail to read mail via IMAP and send mail back through Gmail's SMTP servers. Every so often I get a failed-to-send dialog and I just have to retry. It usually succeeds on the 2nd try. Back in the good ol' days, everybody had a local MTA (mail transport agent) in their network that accepted mail from their mail clients and queued it up for delivery upstream. The MTA takes care of dealing with those timeouts due to momentary network glitches by doing automatic retries and you don't have to see any of that. As far as you can tell, you hit Send and it just goes. It's possible to set up an MTA (eg sendmail, or better yet, Postfix) on your workstation. Macs come with Postfix installed, but disabled by default. It's not hard to enable it. It is a little tricky to do all the configuration needed to get it forwarding mail for you (and dealing with SSL certificates etc.), and quite honestly I don't recommend it unless you are a *really* serious tinkerer. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT discussion of mail and philosophy (was: re: OT Mac users only)
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 10:23 AM, steve harley p...@paper-ape.com wrote: Mail isn't naturally multi-threaded. It's not a discussion, it's a timeline. of course it is a discussion, and the timeline approach fails as the discussion branches I disagree. a beauty of email is that the discussion need not be linear -- When a message-response thread goes non-linear, people should change the subject to indicate that it is off on a different topic. As I just did. Otherwise the whole point of a mail thread becomes irrelevant. no i don't want that -- it was just one example of how touching a message is not the same as reading it; there are several practical implications and also a principle at work here When glance at a bunch of messages and skim them, I *want* them to be marked read. I flag (command-shift-L) the ones I will go back to that I think might be important to prioritize. What you want is a preview that doesn't change the state. i'll resist the standard Apple makes only one flavor reply and ask is an email client a flavor of ice cream, or is it an ice cream shop, or what? how about if food had a preferences menu item, and if you didn't like something about it you could change it as you ate it -- too salty, dial it down / needs more chocolate chips ... Apple provides one Mail client and gives it to you free. You can download several dozen others free or commercial. Whatever else you are trying to imply with your question I don't have the energy to engage as a debate. ;-) Remember: I work for Apple as a contractor right now, and was an employee there for a decade and a half. A lot of what Apple does ... I had a hand in setting some of the policies. So there's no use debating my opinion. ;-) -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I called my service provider and determined through testing that they had a problem. They fixed it promptly. ;-) Thanks, Godfrey. I'll call mine. By chance was yours ATT? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT discussion of mail and philosophy (was: re: OT Mac users only)
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi gdigio...@gmail.com wrote: When a message-response thread goes non-linear, people should change the subject to indicate that it is off on a different topic. As I just did. Otherwise the whole point of a mail thread becomes irrelevant. You're conflating temporal linearity and topicality. Suppose there's a 10-message thread on the PDML, which has (amazingly) stayed relevant to the original topic. I check my email and read the 10 messages. In message 2 of 10, you make a point to which I wish to respond, still on topic. I reply to message 2 of 10. My reply SHOULD be shown visually as a reply to #2, not simply as message #11 in the thread. My favorite mail reader, mutt, did this quite clearly. I now use Gmail's web interface, and generally like it, but hate that it does not have this hierarchical threaded view. (Also: Changing a subject line does not and should not break a thread on its own, at least to those of us who are disciples of the Church of References Header Primacy. Again, mutt got this right and showed the new subject line, but within the thread hierarchy.) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Bruce Walker wrote: It's possible to set up an MTA (eg sendmail, or better yet, Postfix) on your workstation. Macs come with Postfix installed, but disabled by default. It's not hard to enable it. It is a little tricky to do all the configuration needed to get it forwarding mail for you (and dealing with SSL certificates etc.), and quite honestly I don't recommend it unless you are a *really* serious tinkerer. Thanks for the explanation, Bruce. I think I'll pass on learning to configure Postfix for now. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT discussion of mail and philosophy (was: re: OT Mac users only)
On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Matthew Hunt wrote: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi gdigio...@gmail.com wrote: When a message-response thread goes non-linear, people should change the subject to indicate that it is off on a different topic. As I just did. Otherwise the whole point of a mail thread becomes irrelevant. You're conflating temporal linearity and topicality. Mark! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 1:21 PM, steve harley wrote: there's at least one plug-in for tagging messages in Mail: http://www.indev.ca/MailTags.html Thanks Steve. That link led me to another one [ Tags http://www.gravityapps.com/tags/index.html ] that tags across many applications as well as Mail. I use another application [ TiddlyWiki http://www.tiddlywiki.com/ ] for which a plugin has been developed that supports a kind of enhanced tagging [ TagglyTagging http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/#TagglyTagging ] the basic feature of which is that it allows tagging of tags. I've found it powerful for structuring and restructuring notes created with this application; I can restructure my notes as my thinking about the topic evolves. It took a while to get the hang of it, but I'd sure like to have that capability across all my applications. I've inquired with the developers of Tags to see if it provides for tagging of tags. I doubt that it does. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 10:21 , steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-16 11:12 , Eric Weir wrote: I'm very happy with it. Hardly anything I'd like, except maybe tagging of messages. there's at least one plug-in for tagging messages in Mail: http://www.indev.ca/MailTags.html tags (a la Mac OS labels) are built-into Thunderbird, where i use them a lot Question: Is it possible to filter outgoing messages, i.e., so copies get filed in the appropriate mailboxes rather than being dumped in the sent folder? in Mail, no (unless you can find a plug-in); the standard workaround is to bcc yourself and set up filters to catch those bcc's, but you'll also have a copy in Sent; several other email clients, such as Thunderbird, have an explicit option to store replies in the folder of the message to which you've replied If your Sent folder has a triangle next to it, as mine does, clicking on it will reveal a SENT folder for each of your accounts. It's the same for Inbox, Outbox, Drafts, Sent, Trash and Junk. Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com Gaudeamus igitur, juvenes dum sumus... http://tinyurl.com/ndmfhb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
It is counterproductive to produce a software or hardware commodity to meet the needs of everyone who might use them. If you don't like the way MAIL behaves, adapt, or go elsewhere for your solution. DON'T whine about it on PDML. On Mar 16, 2011, at 10:23 , steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-16 00:34 , Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:33 PM, steve harleyp...@paper-ape.com wrote: that's not a hierarchy, it's just a bunch, and a bunch that's sorted by time, instead of which messages replied to which; it's not really nested at all because the first item is a psuedo-item that changes depending which messages are marked read Mail isn't naturally multi-threaded. It's not a discussion, it's a timeline. of course it is a discussion, and the timeline approach fails as the discussion branches a beauty of email is that the discussion need not be linear -- it's not a strict analog of a verbal discussion; people intuitively know this; they go off on pun romps while others are answering the serious question in a thread or getting political, and the timelines of these branches overlap, but a proper display sorts it all out and helps the reader follow the branching, decide what to read and when; for example i just bailed out of the twicification and hamburger branches of the SMC 15 thread no, it marks a message when it has been _displayed_; this makes it awkward to glance at a message body before deciding whether to read it now Oh, you want it to display a content preview. Just use the web client for Mail instead. no i don't want that -- it was just one example of how touching a message is not the same as reading it; there are several practical implications and also a principle at work here It works fine for me. But that's why they make so many flavors of ice cream too. :-) i'll resist the standard Apple makes only one flavor reply and ask is an email client a flavor of ice cream, or is it an ice cream shop, or what? how about if food had a preferences menu item, and if you didn't like something about it you could change it as you ate it -- too salty, dial it down / needs more chocolate chips ... Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com “ Nature is considerably more creative and inventive than humankind. Without Nature there isn't any humankind. Without humankind, Nature is fine.” -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 16/3/11, Eric Weir, discombobulated, unleashed: My needs are pretty basic and simple, though. Eric, we should have a drink sometime. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Cotty wrote: On 16/3/11, Eric Weir, discombobulated, unleashed: My needs are pretty basic and simple, though. Eric, we should have a drink sometime. That might be the smoothest pickup line I've seen on this list since I joined. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Joseph McAllister wrote: If your Sent folder has a triangle next to it, as mine does, clicking on it will reveal a SENT folder for each of your accounts. Guess I don't qualify as a power user, Joseph. I have only one account. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-16 14:07 , Joseph McAllister wrote: If your Sent folder has a triangle next to it, as mine does, clicking on it will reveal a SENT folder for each of your accounts. right, but i think Eric was talking about mailboxes, such as into which one might filter list mail -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-16 14:06 , Eric Weir wrote: I've inquired with the developers of Tags to see if it provides for tagging of tags. I doubt that it does. i think you are a closet abuser of evolved workflows! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 16/3/11, Larry Colen, discombobulated, unleashed: On 16/3/11, Eric Weir, discombobulated, unleashed: My needs are pretty basic and simple, though. Eric, we should have a drink sometime. That might be the smoothest pickup line I've seen on this list since I joined. TO DISCUSS OUR SIMPLE NEEDS Perv ;) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-16 14:13 , Joseph McAllister wrote: It is counterproductive to produce a software or hardware commodity to meet the needs of everyone who might use them. meet the needs of everyone is a bit rhetorical, but the general idea has proven quite productive, e.g. for Microsoft and for the open source community, to produce tools with a huge number of obscure configuration options (whereas the options i'm talking about aren't particularly obscure); and lord knows the web browsing experience is immensely configurable through JavaScript and HTML5; there is a tension between doing this and also having the options stay out of the way that's not what i'm talking about though -- at this point the discussion is about the phenomenology of email and workflow choices, although if your email client bunches up the thread it might be harder to follow ;? If you don't like the way MAIL behaves, adapt, or go elsewhere for your solution. DON'T whine about it on PDML. oh god, no whining now? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:40 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-16 14:13 , Joseph McAllister wrote: It is counterproductive to produce a software or hardware commodity to meet the needs of everyone who might use them. meet the needs of everyone is a bit rhetorical, but the general idea has proven quite productive, e.g. for Microsoft and for the open source community, to produce tools with a huge number of obscure configuration options (whereas the options i'm talking about aren't particularly obscure); and lord knows the web browsing experience is immensely configurable through JavaScript and HTML5; there is a tension between doing this and also having the options stay out of the way that's not what i'm talking about though -- at this point the discussion is about the phenomenology of email and workflow choices, although if your email client bunches up the thread it might be harder to follow ;? The phenomenology of email? HAR! Way to lob a big word at the opposition. Phenomenology is the study of phenomena -- the plural of phenomenon. Phenomenon is somewhat obtuse, but it generally means an occurrence, usually relating to nature. So you're saying the discussion is about the study of natural occurrences of email? Minus ten points for obfuscation. Paul If you don't like the way MAIL behaves, adapt, or go elsewhere for your solution. DON'T whine about it on PDML. oh god, no whining now? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-16 14:13 , Joseph McAllister wrote: It is counterproductive to produce a software or hardware commodity to meet the needs of everyone who might use them. meet the needs of everyone is a bit rhetorical, but the general idea has proven quite productive, e.g. for Microsoft and for the open source community, to produce tools with a huge number of obscure configuration options (whereas the options i'm talking about aren't particularly obscure); and lord knows the web browsing experience is immensely configurable through JavaScript and HTML5; there is a tension between doing this and also having the options stay out of the way that's not what i'm talking about though -- at this point the discussion is about the phenomenology of email and workflow choices, although if your email client bunches up the thread it might be harder to follow ;? The phenomenology of email? HAR! Way to lob a big word at the opposition. Phenomenology is the study of phenomena -- the plural of phenomenon. Phenomenon is somewhat obtuse, but it generally means an occurrence, usually relating to nature. So you're saying the discussion is about the study of natural occurrences of email? Minus ten points for obfuscation. Paul phenomenology is a philolsophical method which says that we can only approach the world (phenomena) through the experiences of our own mind. It is one of the foundations of existentialism - Sartre was a phenomenologist. So what we are witnessing here is the application of existentialism to email, and that's probably why you're experiencing nausea. However, it would be wrong to let your nausea get the better of you. Since phenomenology limits you to discussing your own experiences, you can do it anywhere. Simone de Beauvoir reports that one of their friends introduced Sartre to it by pointing at his glass and saying 'You see, my dear fellow, if you are a phenomenologist, you can talk about this cocktail and make a philosophy out of it'. On learning this, Sartre turned 'pale with emotion'. That, for me, makes it ideal for the PDML - Phenomenologists Discussing Margaritas Lovingly. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-16 15:51 , Paul Stenquist wrote: The phenomenology of email? HAR! Way to lob a big word at the opposition. Phenomenology is the study of phenomena -- the plural of phenomenon. Phenomenon is somewhat obtuse, but it generally means an occurrence, usually relating to nature. So you're saying the discussion is about the study of natural occurrences of email? Minus ten points for obfuscation. i'm thinking of it as the investigation of how we experience email -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
My ADSL provider is ATT, but that's just network speed issues. Email and such run through Apple's MobileMe, GoDaddy.com and at least two others, so when service to a particular sendmail server gets funky, you have to know where in the chain to start looking. On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I called my service provider and determined through testing that they had a problem. They fixed it promptly. ;-) Thanks, Godfrey. I'll call mine. By chance was yours ATT? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT discussion of mail and philosophy (was: re: OT Mac users only)
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Matthew Hunt m...@pobox.com wrote: When a message-response thread goes non-linear, people should change the subject to indicate that it is off on a different topic. As I just did. Otherwise the whole point of a mail thread becomes irrelevant. You're conflating temporal linearity and topicality. Gesundheit! I had one of them a couple weeks ago. Suppose there's a 10-message thread on the PDML, which has (amazingly) stayed relevant to the original topic. I check my email and read the 10 messages. In message 2 of 10, you make a point to which I wish to respond, still on topic. I reply to message 2 of 10. That's what quoting is for. In a single linear timeline, it links comment and response. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT discussion of mail and philosophy (was: re: OT Mac users only)
On 2011-03-16 13:33 , Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 10:23 AM, steve harleyp...@paper-ape.com wrote: a beauty of email is that the discussion need not be linear -- When a message-response thread goes non-linear, people should change the subject to indicate that it is off on a different topic. that's very idealistic, and while i somewhat agree, human behavior intervenes to make threads highly non-linear; it happens all the time within the confines of a topic as well -- people don't synthesize every message in a thread before responding to one point; for a true timeline-based messaging system, try Twitter or IRC (and watch them devolve into awkward @ incantations when people try to go non-linear) the question of whether the subject line changes is actually not necessarily relevant to threading; subject shifts within a thread were anticipated when the in-reply-to header was specified What you want is a preview that doesn't change the state. what i want is a state that is what it says it is (and i get that -- as an option -- with another client) i am happy to agree that you have an approach which works for you and a lot of others, however i have to draw the line at you telling me what i want -- there are several use cases for the read behavior i prefer, and i was trying to lead you to the abstract principle, which has no dependency on previewing i'll resist the standard Apple makes only one flavor reply and ask is an email client a flavor of ice cream, or is it an ice cream shop, or what? how about if food had a preferences menu item, and if you didn't like something about it you could change it as you ate it -- too salty, dial it down / needs more chocolate chips ... Apple provides one Mail client and gives it to you free. You can download several dozen others free or commercial. Whatever else you are trying to imply with your question I don't have the energy to engage as a debate. ;-) closing your previous message by telling me i can use what i want felt to me as if you hadn't really wanted an answer to your original question, why wouldn't someone like Mail?; i know the alternatives fairly well, i have used email for 33 years and these days i use three email clients so i'll answer again more in the spirit of your food analogy: it's not like ice cream -- it's like choices of several different options of slightly spoiled food; i eat what gives me nutrition with the least indigestion; i accept that everyone's taste is different, but i do feel too many people assume the first thing they taste is the way it's supposed to be Remember: I work for Apple as a contractor right now, and was an employee there for a decade and a half. A lot of what Apple does ... I had a hand in setting some of the policies. So there's no use debating my opinion. ;-) there was at least one Mail.app engineer on Mac OS X Talk in the early aughts; several of us tried debating with him, and i am well past that; debating features with Apple proxies is like ... [resisting impulse to use political analogy] anyhow, i'm not trying to convince you to dislike Mail, just trying to cross a communication gap; you asked a question, and i answered sincerely; then you refuted some points in a way that made me feel i didn't get my meaning across, and you gave me an unrequested prescription in the process -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 3/16/2011 5:09 PM, Cotty wrote: On 16/3/11, Larry Colen, discombobulated, unleashed: On 16/3/11, Eric Weir, discombobulated, unleashed: My needs are pretty basic and simple, though. Eric, we should have a drink sometime. That might be the smoothest pickup line I've seen on this list since I joined. TO DISCUSS OUR SIMPLE NEEDS When you find yourself at the bottom of a hole you should stop digging. Perv ;) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:59 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-16 14:06 , Eric Weir wrote: I've inquired with the developers of Tags to see if it provides for tagging of tags. I doubt that it does. i think you are a closet abuser of evolved workflows! None of my workflows, if they can be called that, are evolved. In that regard I am literally almost like a blind man trying to find his way in a new neighborhood. That said, with the application with which I learned to use it, tagging of tags is powerful. Other tagging apps or functions are tame in comparison. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Cotty wrote: On 16/3/11, Eric Weir, discombobulated, unleashed: My needs are pretty basic and simple, though. Eric, we should have a drink sometime. Gosh, Cotty. I don't know what to say. Do you think it might solve my problems with Mail? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 7:54 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Email and such run through Apple's MobileMe, GoDaddy.com and at least two others, so when service to a particular sendmail server gets funky, you have to know where in the chain to start looking. I take it you're referring to your setup. If I don't use such other services I'm not gonna get much help from ATT? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
Your service provider is bellsouth.com. Talk to them. On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: On Mar 16, 2011, at 7:54 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Email and such run through Apple's MobileMe, GoDaddy.com and at least two others, so when service to a particular sendmail server gets funky, you have to know where in the chain to start looking. I take it you're referring to your setup. If I don't use such other services I'm not gonna get much help from ATT? -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 16, 2011, at 10:59 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Your service provider is bellsouth.com. Talk to them. Thanks, Godfrey. Bellsouth doesn't exist anymore. It was bought out by ATT several years ago. I'll see if I can get any help from them. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:24 PM, Bruce Walker wrote: There's a known issue with an interaction between one particular Mac OS X network config and many home routers. Mac OS X by default enables a TCP/IP performance extension called RFC 1323. This sometimes triggers some odd behaviour in a number of servers and router products, for example problems uploading things (eg delivering mail). Luckily it's fairly easily turned off. You can do that from the command line with this: $ sudo sysctl -w net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 That change is temporary and will revert back to default behaviour on the next reboot. If you find that that helps, you can make the change permanent by putting this line of text ... net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 ... into the file /etc/sysctl.conf . I guess it's not working afterall. It has started hanging up again. Thanks again for the suggestion, though. Looked promising there at the beginning. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 11-03-15 8:47 AM, Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:24 PM, Bruce Walker wrote: There's a known issue with an interaction between one particular Mac OS X network config and many home routers. Mac OS X by default enables a TCP/IP performance extension called RFC 1323. This sometimes triggers some odd behaviour in a number of servers and router products, for example problems uploading things (eg delivering mail). Luckily it's fairly easily turned off. You can do that from the command line with this: $ sudo sysctl -w net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 That change is temporary and will revert back to default behaviour on the next reboot. If you find that that helps, you can make the change permanent by putting this line of text ... net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 ... into the file /etc/sysctl.conf . I guess it's not working afterall. It has started hanging up again. Thanks again for the suggestion, though. Looked promising there at the beginning. Sorry that didn't help Eric. Worth a shot anyway. It made a huge difference for me when uploading to Flickr and also when I was mounting disks remotely over sshfs. Somewhere between my home system and work system there was some router or firewall that didn't grok RFC 1323. But that reminds me: I've changed my firewall since then, so I should retest if I still need the hack myself. Did you learn about tcpdump or Wireshark during your year of living Linuxly? You could inspect a packet trace of the email transfer to see if some other weirdness is going on. -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: I guess it's not working afterall. It has started hanging up again. Thanks again for the suggestion, though. Looked promising there at the beginning. I did not like MAIL, and only used it once i n a while. Dave -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 10:06 AM, David J Brooks pentko...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Eric Weir eew...@bellsouth.net wrote: I guess it's not working afterall. It has started hanging up again. Thanks again for the suggestion, though. Looked promising there at the beginning. I did not like MAIL, and only used it once i n a while. Why? I use Mail every day for hundreds and hundreds of messages. It's integration with calendar, address book and ichat services is very effective. I've had this sort of stall and difficulties with accessing a send server happen from time to time. It has *always* resolved to be a problem at the server, nothing that Mail can do about it. -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-15 14:10 , Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 10:06 AM, David J Brookspentko...@gmail.com wrote: I did not like MAIL, and only used it once i n a while. Why? i don't know about David, but i dislike certain simplifications Apple has applied in Mail: - it doesn't display threads hierarchically, - it can't be stopped from marking messages as read, - it doesn't display what folders have new mail since they were last viewed, - it can't have different view preferences (such as sorting or whether threads are folded) per mailbox, - it encourages top-posting, - it doesn't display time in the list pane ... but Mail.app is very smooth, and the integration is enticing -- i use it for archiving (since it stores in maildir format which works well with Spotlight) and for minor accounts -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
i don't know about David, but i dislike certain simplifications Apple has applied in Mail: - it doesn't display threads hierarchically, Sure it does ... but the hierarchy is only one level deep. It doesn't thread into a tree of arbitrary depth. - it can't be stopped from marking messages as read, Huh? It marks a message as read when you read it. If you use the menus, 'message-mark-unread|read' toggles depending on the selected message's state. Command-shift-U does the same thing. - it doesn't display what folders have new mail since they were last viewed, Huh again? Mail always tells me what folders I've told it to shuffle mail into have unread items. It doesn't mark new unread since the last time you looked and didn't read anything' though. - it can't have different view preferences (such as sorting or whether threads are folded) per mailbox, Sure it does. At any time, in any folder or collection of folder's context, you can sort threads and fold them. - it encourages top-posting, That's up to you to work out. I generally prefer top posting, but it depends on the context of the conversation. - it doesn't display time in the list pane ... Another huh? ... What's that I see over on the right hand side of this snap shot? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/mailinterface.jpg -- Godfrey godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:50 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi gdigio...@gmail.com wrote: Sure it does ... but the hierarchy is only one level deep. I should try that argument the next time my company reorganizes. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-15 18:50 , Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: i don't know about David, but i dislike certain simplifications Apple has applied in Mail: - it doesn't display threads hierarchically, Sure it does ... but the hierarchy is only one level deep. It doesn't thread into a tree of arbitrary depth. that's not a hierarchy, it's just a bunch, and a bunch that's sorted by time, instead of which messages replied to which; it's not really nested at all because the first item is a psuedo-item that changes depending which messages are marked read - it can't be stopped from marking messages as read, Huh? It marks a message as read when you read it. no, it marks a message when it has been _displayed_; this makes it awkward to glance at a message body before deciding whether to read it now - it doesn't display what folders have new mail since they were last viewed, Huh again? Mail always tells me what folders I've told it to shuffle mail into have unread items. It doesn't mark new unread since the last time you looked and didn't read anything' though. i don't care about the unread count, but i do like Thunderbird's highlight of mailboxes that have new mail since the last time i viewed the mailbox; i have several mailboxes with many unread messages that i won't look at unless something new comes in - it can't have different view preferences (such as sorting or whether threads are folded) per mailbox, Sure it does. At any time, in any folder or collection of folder's context, you can sort threads and fold them. i meant whether threaded, but in any case you're right, i mixed myself up -- the prefs that aren't per-mailbox are just the columns and column widths -- i don't need a recipient column in most mailboxes, but it's very helpful in some - it encourages top-posting, That's up to you to work out. I generally prefer top posting, but it depends on the context of the conversation. i work it out by using an email client that lets me choose; i top-post when i must, but Mail inserts blank lines at the top that i have to delete when i don't top-post - it doesn't display time in the list pane ... Another huh? ... What's that I see over on the right hand side of this snap shot? http://homepage.mac.com/godders/mailinterface.jpg got me on that one -- my columns are narrow and instead of Today Thunderbird displays the time left-justified, no need for wide columns so i learned a couple of things, but the features at the top of my list are the ones that turn me off of Mail the most; i've let go of several others over the years; i'd love Mail to have more flexibility because as i said, the integration with other tools is nicely done -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
OT Mac users only
I'm having a problem with Mail that I have not been able to get any help with from the Apple forums: Mail frequently hangs up for a LONG time on sending. The little wheely thing that spins beside sent in the mailbox column on the left side of the window spins forever. Eventually, Mail displays a window reporting that the send could not be completed and recommending that I try an alternative server, which is always the server that failed, my only server. When I accept the recommendation the message goes out immediately. One respondent on the Apple forums suggested rebuilding the email boxes, which appeared to work for a while, but the problem has reappeared and rebuilding no longer has any effect. Others on the thread I started have reported experiencing the problem as well. Any Mac users on the list have any suggestions as to what's going on? Thanks, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT Mac users only
Sorry, I opened this and read it before I noticed the subject line. I'm not a Mac user. I hope you'll forgive me for prying. B -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Eric Weir Sent: 14 March 2011 16:44 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: OT Mac users only I'm having a problem with Mail that I have not been able to get any help with from the Apple forums: Mail frequently hangs up for a LONG time on sending. The little wheely thing that spins beside sent in the mailbox column on the left side of the window spins forever. Eventually, Mail displays a window reporting that the send could not be completed and recommending that I try an alternative server, which is always the server that failed, my only server. When I accept the recommendation the message goes out immediately. One respondent on the Apple forums suggested rebuilding the email boxes, which appeared to work for a while, but the problem has reappeared and rebuilding no longer has any effect. Others on the thread I started have reported experiencing the problem as well. Any Mac users on the list have any suggestions as to what's going on? Thanks, --- --- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-14 10:43 , Eric Weir wrote: Mail frequently hangs up for a LONG time on sending. The little wheely thing that spins beside sent in the mailbox column on the left side of the window spins forever. Eventually, Mail displays a window reporting that the send could not be completed and recommending that I try an alternative server, which is always the server that failed, my only server. When I accept the recommendation the message goes out immediately. it sounds like it's storing the message in the Sent folder when it fails; i have a similar intermittent problem in Thunderbird too, and i've researched it without solution; i've written it off to the older IMAP server my ISP uses as a quick fix, if you're not accessing your account from multiple machines, consider going to the Preferences Accounts Mailbox Behaviors and unchecking store sent messages on server (they will henceforth be stored on your computer only) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 11-03-14 12:43 PM, Eric Weir wrote: I'm having a problem with Mail that I have not been able to get any help with from the Apple forums: Mail frequently hangs up for a LONG time on sending. The little wheely thing that spins beside sent in the mailbox column on the left side of the window spins forever. Eventually, Mail displays a window reporting that the send could not be completed and recommending that I try an alternative server, which is always the server that failed, my only server. When I accept the recommendation the message goes out immediately. One respondent on the Apple forums suggested rebuilding the email boxes, which appeared to work for a while, but the problem has reappeared and rebuilding no longer has any effect. Others on the thread I started have reported experiencing the problem as well. Any Mac users on the list have any suggestions as to what's going on? Thanks, -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net Eric, here's something to try. No guarantees though. There's a known issue with an interaction between one particular Mac OS X network config and many home routers. Mac OS X by default enables a TCP/IP performance extension called RFC 1323. This sometimes triggers some odd behaviour in a number of servers and router products, for example problems uploading things (eg delivering mail). Luckily it's fairly easily turned off. You can do that from the command line with this: $ sudo sysctl -w net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 That change is temporary and will revert back to default behaviour on the next reboot. If you find that that helps, you can make the change permanent by putting this line of text ... net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 ... into the file /etc/sysctl.conf . (I'm assuming you're OK with doing root stuff in Terminal.app.) -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 2:56 PM, Bob W wrote: Sorry, I opened this and read it before I noticed the subject line. I'm not a Mac user. I hope you'll forgive me for prying. Well, I do know, Bob. Maybe in time. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:20 PM, steve harley wrote: it sounds like it's storing the message in the Sent folder when it fails; i have a similar intermittent problem in Thunderbird too, and i've researched it without solution; i've written it off to the older IMAP server my ISP uses as a quick fix, if you're not accessing your account from multiple machines, consider going to the Preferences Accounts Mailbox Behaviors and unchecking store sent messages on server (they will henceforth be stored on your computer only) Mail doesn't provide that option, Steve. At least my copy doesn't. But thanks just the same. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:24 PM, Bruce Walker wrote: Eric, here's something to try. No guarantees though. There's a known issue with an interaction between one particular Mac OS X network config and many home routers. Mac OS X by default enables a TCP/IP performance extension called RFC 1323. This sometimes triggers some odd behaviour in a number of servers and router products, for example problems uploading things (eg delivering mail). Luckily it's fairly easily turned off. You can do that from the command line with this: $ sudo sysctl -w net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 That change is temporary and will revert back to default behaviour on the next reboot. If you find that that helps, you can make the change permanent by putting this line of text ... net.inet.tcp.rfc1323=0 ... into the file /etc/sysctl.conf . (I'm assuming you're OK with doing root stuff in Terminal.app.) I got very familiar with it in my year of messing around with Unix. I believe I've successfully executed the command. We'll see if it helps with this message. Thanks for the suggestion. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:48 PM, Eric Weir wrote: We'll see if it helps with this message. It went out right away. We'll see if it sticks. If it does, I'll make it permanent. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-14 13:42 , Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:20 PM, steve harley wrote: as a quick fix, if you're not accessing your account from multiple machines, consider going to the Preferences Accounts Mailbox Behaviors and unchecking store sent messages on server (they will henceforth be stored on your computer only) Mail doesn't provide that option, Steve. At least my copy doesn't. what version are you using, i'm on 3.6 (the 10.5 version); i'd be surprised if the 10.6 version removed the setting, but it may have been renamed or put in a different section -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT Mac users only
-Original Message- From: Bob W p...@web-options.com Subject: RE: OT Mac users only Sorry, I opened this and read it before I noticed the subject line. I'm not a Mac user. I hope you'll forgive me for prying. I love my Mac with cheese. B -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Eric Weir Sent: 14 March 2011 16:44 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: OT Mac users only I'm having a problem with Mail that I have not been able to get any help with from the Apple forums: Mail frequently hangs up for a LONG time on sending. The little wheely thing that spins beside sent in the mailbox column on the left side of the window spins forever. Eventually, Mail displays a window reporting that the send could not be completed and recommending that I try an alternative server, which is always the server that failed, my only server. When I accept the recommendation the message goes out immediately. One respondent on the Apple forums suggested rebuilding the email boxes, which appeared to work for a while, but the problem has reappeared and rebuilding no longer has any effect. Others on the thread I started have reported experiencing the problem as well. Any Mac users on the list have any suggestions as to what's going on? Thanks, --- --- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-14 14:13 , Kenneth Waller wrote: From: Bob Wp...@web-options.com Sorry, I opened this and read it before I noticed the subject line. I'm not a Mac user. I hope you'll forgive me for prying. I love my Mac with cheese. no wonder Bob had to pry -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 14:42, Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:20 PM, steve harley wrote: it sounds like it's storing the message in the Sent folder when it fails; i have a similar intermittent problem in Thunderbird too, and i've researched it without solution; i've written it off to the older IMAP server my ISP uses as a quick fix, if you're not accessing your account from multiple machines, consider going to the Preferences Accounts Mailbox Behaviors and unchecking store sent messages on server (they will henceforth be stored on your computer only) Mail doesn't provide that option, Steve. At least my copy doesn't. How old an OS are you running? That option's been on every version of Mail.app I've run for the past 5 years. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 4:12 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-14 13:42 , Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:20 PM, steve harley wrote: as a quick fix, if you're not accessing your account from multiple machines, consider going to the Preferences Accounts Mailbox Behaviors and unchecking store sent messages on server (they will henceforth be stored on your computer only) Mail doesn't provide that option, Steve. At least my copy doesn't. what version are you using, i'm on 3.6 (the 10.5 version); i'd be surprised if the 10.6 version removed the setting, but it may have been renamed or put in a different section Mail is version 4.4, OS X is 10.6.6. I check in the other sections of the Accounts page in Preferences and didn't find that option. The only option provided for sent messages relates to deleting messages after they've been sent. There is an option in the Advanced section of the Accounts page regarding when to remove messages from the server after retrieving them. I have it set for after one day. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 4:19 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: How old an OS are you running? That option's been on every version of Mail.app I've run for the past 5 years. As reported to Steve, my version of OS X is 10.6.6. I believe that's the most recent version. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: OT Mac users only
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 18:56 +, Bob W p...@web-options.com wrote: Sorry, I opened this and read it before I noticed the subject line. I'm not a Mac user. I hope you'll forgive me for prying. My apologies also, but I couldn't resist a quick peek into the world of the Mac... (Hope you find the answer, Eric) Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ B -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Eric Weir Sent: 14 March 2011 16:44 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: OT Mac users only I'm having a problem with Mail that I have not been able to get any help with from the Apple forums: Mail frequently hangs up for a LONG time on sending. The little wheely thing that spins beside sent in the mailbox column on the left side of the window spins forever. Eventually, Mail displays a window reporting that the send could not be completed and recommending that I try an alternative server, which is always the server that failed, my only server. When I accept the recommendation the message goes out immediately. One respondent on the Apple forums suggested rebuilding the email boxes, which appeared to work for a while, but the problem has reappeared and rebuilding no longer has any effect. Others on the thread I started have reported experiencing the problem as well. Any Mac users on the list have any suggestions as to what's going on? Thanks, --- -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 15:37, Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 4:12 PM, steve harley wrote: On 2011-03-14 13:42 , Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 3:20 PM, steve harley wrote: as a quick fix, if you're not accessing your account from multiple machines, consider going to the Preferences Accounts Mailbox Behaviors and unchecking store sent messages on server (they will henceforth be stored on your computer only) Mail doesn't provide that option, Steve. At least my copy doesn't. what version are you using, i'm on 3.6 (the 10.5 version); i'd be surprised if the 10.6 version removed the setting, but it may have been renamed or put in a different section Mail is version 4.4, OS X is 10.6.6. I check in the other sections of the Accounts page in Preferences and didn't find that option. The only option provided for sent messages relates to deleting messages after they've been sent. There is an option in the Advanced section of the Accounts page regarding when to remove messages from the server after retrieving them. I have it set for after one day. Sounds to me maybe like you're set up for POP3, not IMAP access. In the Account Information section, what does it say after account type? -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 4:48 PM, Brian Walters wrote: (Hope you find the answer, Eric) Me, too. Bruce's suggestion seems to be working so far. Might have to make it permanent. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 5:08 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: Sounds to me maybe like you're set up for POP3, not IMAP access. In the Account Information section, what does it say after account type? Yep, it's POP. As I recall, that's what my provider -- ATT/Yahoo -- specified when they set me up. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On 2011-03-14 15:17 , Eric Weir wrote: On Mar 14, 2011, at 5:08 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: Sounds to me maybe like you're set up for POP3, not IMAP access. In the Account Information section, what does it say after account type? Yep, it's POP. As I recall, that's what my provider -- ATT/Yahoo -- specified when they set me up. okay, so this is different from the failure to copy already-sent messages to the Sent folder that i see on IMAP; it sounds like a problem communicating with the server, and my suggestion is irrelevant -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: OT Mac users only
On Mar 14, 2011, at 5:43 PM, steve harley wrote: okay, so this is different from the failure to copy already-sent messages to the Sent folder that i see on IMAP; it sounds like a problem communicating with the server, and my suggestion is irrelevant Thanks, Steve. Maybe a call to ATT technical support will help, though it sounds like a problem with the software, not the network. -- Eric Weir Decatur, GA USA eew...@bellsouth.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
