Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Nice photo, pleasing tonality. Good work. Lasse From: Shel Belinkoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pentax-discuss@pdml.net Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 6:42 PM Subject: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco This is a very early photo. I don't think I had my camera more than six or eight months. My girlfriend (a Nikon shooter for those who care) and I would wander around The City looking for interesting situations. One day we came across a group of about seven or eight guys hanging out on a street corner in what is known as the South of Market area. This pic was a mess. The negative is badly scratched and gauged, lots of dust is imbedded in the emulsion, the exposure in contrasty and difficult light was atrocious (I didn't know proper exposure techniques then and the Spotmatic's meter was off), and I wasn't even holding the camera straight or paying attention to the framing. I began work on this project more to learn and become proficient with Photoshop techniques than anything else, and the work is still in progress. There's lots more restoration work to be done, but it doesn't look too bad when reduced in size for a web presentation. Here are a few of the guys who were hangin' out that afternoon. http://home.earthlink.net/~pdml-pics/hanging.html Shel
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Hi, Shel Belinkoff wrote: http://home.earthlink.net/~pdml-pics/hanging.html Is this the full version of the segment of negative you showed us before Christmas? mike
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Yes, it is, well, mostly. It's been cropped a bit to straighten out the scene and to eliminate some extraneous visual elements. Shel [Original Message] From: mike wilson http://home.earthlink.net/~pdml-pics/hanging.html Is this the full version of the segment of negative you showed us before Christmas?
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Magnificent work. Shel Belinkoff wrote: Yes, it is, well, mostly. It's been cropped a bit to straighten out the scene and to eliminate some extraneous visual elements. Shel [Original Message] From: mike wilson http://home.earthlink.net/~pdml-pics/hanging.html Is this the full version of the segment of negative you showed us before Christmas?
PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
This is a very early photo. I don't think I had my camera more than six or eight months. My girlfriend (a Nikon shooter for those who care) and I would wander around The City looking for interesting situations. One day we came across a group of about seven or eight guys hanging out on a street corner in what is known as the South of Market area. This pic was a mess. The negative is badly scratched and gauged, lots of dust is imbedded in the emulsion, the exposure in contrasty and difficult light was atrocious (I didn't know proper exposure techniques then and the Spotmatic's meter was off), and I wasn't even holding the camera straight or paying attention to the framing. I began work on this project more to learn and become proficient with Photoshop techniques than anything else, and the work is still in progress. There's lots more restoration work to be done, but it doesn't look too bad when reduced in size for a web presentation. Here are a few of the guys who were hangin' out that afternoon. http://home.earthlink.net/~pdml-pics/hanging.html Shel
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Hi Shel, It's looking quite good, but it lacks any strong blacks (at least on my monitor). However, I don't think it would benefit from more contrast as the highlights are about right. I'd go into curves and pull the bottom end until the blacks are stronger. I might also try converting to rgb and going to selective color to add black to the blacks. Paul This is a very early photo. I don't think I had my camera more than six or eight months. My girlfriend (a Nikon shooter for those who care) and I would wander around The City looking for interesting situations. One day we came across a group of about seven or eight guys hanging out on a street corner in what is known as the South of Market area. This pic was a mess. The negative is badly scratched and gauged, lots of dust is imbedded in the emulsion, the exposure in contrasty and difficult light was atrocious (I didn't know proper exposure techniques then and the Spotmatic's meter was off), and I wasn't even holding the camera straight or paying attention to the framing. I began work on this project more to learn and become proficient with Photoshop techniques than anything else, and the work is still in progress. There's lots more restoration work to be done, but it doesn't look too bad when reduced in size for a web presentation. Here are a few of the guys who were hangin' out that afternoon. http://home.earthlink.net/~pdml-pics/hanging.html Shel
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
I'm a little out of my element here, but... With a scene of black folk, do you think it's good to add black to black, just to get some deeper shadows, more contrast? It seems to be a touchy situation, and much manipulation of the black/white mix of shades might lose the gentle contrast of the picture very quickly. But, I don't really know that. Just a guess... keith whaley P.S. BTW, I like the shot. Don't know if *I* would have taken that shot back in '69... g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Shel, It's looking quite good, but it lacks any strong blacks (at least on my monitor). However, I don't think it would benefit from more contrast as the highlights are about right. I'd go into curves and pull the bottom end until the blacks are stronger. I might also try converting to rgb and going to selective color to add black to the blacks. Paul This is a very early photo. I don't think I had my camera more than six or eight months. My girlfriend (a Nikon shooter for those who care) and I would wander around The City looking for interesting situations. One day we came across a group of about seven or eight guys hanging out on a street corner in what is known as the South of Market area. This pic was a mess. The negative is badly scratched and gauged, lots of dust is imbedded in the emulsion, the exposure in contrasty and difficult light was atrocious (I didn't know proper exposure techniques then and the Spotmatic's meter was off), and I wasn't even holding the camera straight or paying attention to the framing. I began work on this project more to learn and become proficient with Photoshop techniques than anything else, and the work is still in progress. There's lots more restoration work to be done, but it doesn't look too bad when reduced in size for a web presentation. Here are a few of the guys who were hangin' out that afternoon. http://home.earthlink.net/~pdml-pics/hanging.html Shel
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Hi Paul ... Never saw your post, just a reference from Keith's post. There are some deep blacks in the image, but not many. I didn't want to fiddle with contrast and tonality too much until the resto work was done, but you're right, there are some areas in which there can be a little more black, just as there are some shadow areas that can be opened up a bit. Hmmm ... that selective color sounds interesting. Never tried what you're suggesting before. Definitely worth looking into - thanks for the suggestion. Shel Hi Shel, It's looking quite good, but it lacks any strong blacks (at least on my monitor). However, I don't think it would benefit from more contrast as the highlights are about right. I'd go into curves and pull the bottom end until the blacks are stronger. I might also try converting to rgb and going to selective color to add black to the blacks. Paul
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Hi Keith, Paul's right in that there can be a little more depth in some areas. See my note to him if you care to look. There are ways to add depth without compromising the skin tones. I'm interested in your comment below. Why wouldn't you have made the photo? Shel [Original Message] From: Keith Whaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] P.S. BTW, I like the shot. Don't know if *I* would have taken that shot back in '69... g
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
The skin tones here are all medium gray. If you selectively adjust contrast with curves or add black to black with selective color, you won't affect the skin tones. Paul I'm a little out of my element here, but... With a scene of black folk, do you think it's good to add black to black, just to get some deeper shadows, more contrast? It seems to be a touchy situation, and much manipulation of the black/white mix of shades might lose the gentle contrast of the picture very quickly. But, I don't really know that. Just a guess... keith whaley P.S. BTW, I like the shot. Don't know if *I* would have taken that shot back in '69... g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Shel, It's looking quite good, but it lacks any strong blacks (at least on my monitor). However, I don't think it would benefit from more contrast as the highlights are about right. I'd go into curves and pull the bottom end until the blacks are stronger. I might also try converting to rgb and going to selective color to add black to the blacks. Paul This is a very early photo. I don't think I had my camera more than six or eight months. My girlfriend (a Nikon shooter for those who care) and I would wander around The City looking for interesting situations. One day we came across a group of about seven or eight guys hanging out on a street corner in what is known as the South of Market area. This pic was a mess. The negative is badly scratched and gauged, lots of dust is imbedded in the emulsion, the exposure in contrasty and difficult light was atrocious (I didn't know proper exposure techniques then and the Spotmatic's meter was off), and I wasn't even holding the camera straight or paying attention to the framing. I began work on this project more to learn and become proficient with Photoshop techniques than anything else, and the work is still in progress. There's lots more restoration work to be done, but it doesn't look too bad when reduced in size for a web presentation. Here are a few of the guys who were hangin' out that afternoon. http://home.earthlink.net/~pdml-pics/hanging.html Shel
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Paul, They're far from medium grey here. A lot closer to Zone 4 Shel [Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The skin tones here are all medium gray.
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Shel Belinkoff wrote: Hi Keith, Paul's right in that there can be a little more depth in some areas. See my note to him if you care to look. There are ways to add depth without compromising the skin tones. That's interesting. Seems to me, fussin' around with the dark end of the scale, with a number of black people as the main characters being portrayed, requires great developed skill, to make a faithful recording of what the eye sees... I'm interested in your comment below. Why wouldn't you have made the photo? Shel I would not have approached a superior number of ANY race of people, on a street corner, with bottles concealed in paper, just hanging around... in a rather seedy area of town. I'm intruding. Getting in their space/place/time. Many folks don't LIKE that sort of interference... One of the elements/protocols of street photography I see discussed from time to time. One way of saying it might be...a ticklish situation. I have no wish to interfere with their day, just make an image or two of what I see. Would they misunderstand and think I'm being critical of them? Would they care? When I ask them if they mind if I take the shot, and they say, Why do you want a picture of US, white boy? what do I say that they wouldn't take umbrage at? Your big question... my very simple answer... keith [Original Message] From: Keith Whaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] P.S. BTW, I like the shot. Don't know if *I* would have taken that shot back in '69... g
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Hi Keith, There are many ways to adjust the shadows without making the faces or other areas darker. As for your comments about making the photo, well, the situation wasn't quite like my approaching them and asking for and taking a pic. My GF and I were there for a while, talking, chatting, enjoying the sunshine, and then I made a few pics. I don't intrude where I'm not wanted. These fellows had no problem with our being there. We were just walking by, said hello, commented on the nice day and the conversation went from there. IOW, we were welcomed to spend time with them. Carol, my GF, ended up chatting with one of the fellows for quite a while, and, in fact, when we went to leave a couple of them suggested that we come back again, which Carol did, by herself, a couple of days later while I was occupied with something else a few streets over. The idea that one must follow a certain protocol when photographing people on the street is such crap. People are people, and most like to engage in conversation and passing the time of day. As a person (not as a photographer) I have to understand where I'm welcome and where I'm not. To just arbitrarily avoid any situation where one *might not* be welcome is foolish. To *intrude*, of course, is just as foolish. If you were walking down your street, in your neighborhood, and came across a couple of well-dressed people standing around talking, would you not say hello as you passed by? Might you not reply to a response? Have you never passed the time of day with a stranger, perhaps someone waiting for a bus, or shared a table at a busy restaurant with someone you didn't know? Like I said, people are people, and we were just being human. Shel [Original Message] From: Keith Whaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would not have approached a superior number of ANY race of people, on a street corner, with bottles concealed in paper, just hanging around... in a rather seedy area of town. I'm intruding. Getting in their space/place/time. Many folks don't LIKE that sort of interference... One of the elements/protocols of street photography I see discussed from time to time. One way of saying it might be...a ticklish situation. I have no wish to interfere with their day, just make an image or two of what I see. Would they misunderstand and think I'm being critical of them? Would they care? When I ask them if they mind if I take the shot, and they say, Why do you want a picture of US, white boy? what do I say that they wouldn't take umbrage at? Your big question... my very simple answer... keith [Original Message] From: Keith Whaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] P.S. BTW, I like the shot. Don't know if *I* would have taken that shot back in '69... g
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
I replied to Keith from memory, but I took another look now. On my monitor they vary between zone 4 and 5. The slats in the fence behind them are close to zone 5. Medium gray is an ambiguous term. But I'd describe zone 5 as medium gray. However, I am running at gamma 1.8, which I mentioned in regard to Frank's photo. That's quite a bit brighter than gamma 2.2. Paul Paul, They're far from medium grey here. A lot closer to Zone 4 Shel [Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The skin tones here are all medium gray.
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Hi Shel, Something just occured to me. I'm looking at this shot at work on a crap Viewsonic monitor. I sometimes forget that. I've opened my photos here at times and felt the urge to change something. I always have to remind myself that what I see here may not be real. I'll look again when I get home. In general, things do look a bit flat on this monitor, and that is probably what I'm seeing. I get caught up in the discussion and forget where I am and what I'm looking at g. Paul, They're far from medium grey here. A lot closer to Zone 4 Shel [Original Message] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The skin tones here are all medium gray.
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
In a message dated 1/21/2005 10:13:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are some deep blacks in the image, but not many. I didn't want to fiddle with contrast and tonality too much until the resto work was done, but you're right, there are some areas in which there can be a little more black, just as there are some shadow areas that can be opened up a bit. Hmmm ... that selective color sounds interesting. Never tried what you're suggesting before. Definitely worth looking into - thanks for the suggestion. Shel Okay, that brings up something I've been wondering about. This probably won't get through to the list anyway. In converting some color photos to BW (and, yeah, yeah, I know they don't come out the same as if they were shot with BW film), what do I adjust for? I mean how do I figure out the tonality? I have to adjust brightness/contrast anyway. What sort of range do I aim for in BW? I've been thinking get it light enough to make out most detail, then adjust to have some true black here and there and some white here and there -- if there is some white in the photo -- but a BW photo should have some black here and there. Shadows, if nothing else. Aim for a range. Is that it? Scratching head. Marnie aka Doe
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
Hi, Like I said, people are people, and we were just being human. Well said. Nice photo - made by the guy who's standing. -- Cheers, Bob
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
All excellent points and well told. You're right, of course. I'll re-read that and take it to heart. keith Shel Belinkoff wrote: Hi Keith, There are many ways to adjust the shadows without making the faces or other areas darker. As for your comments about making the photo, well, the situation wasn't quite like my approaching them and asking for and taking a pic. My GF and I were there for a while, talking, chatting, enjoying the sunshine, and then I made a few pics. I don't intrude where I'm not wanted. These fellows had no problem with our being there. We were just walking by, said hello, commented on the nice day and the conversation went from there. IOW, we were welcomed to spend time with them. Carol, my GF, ended up chatting with one of the fellows for quite a while, and, in fact, when we went to leave a couple of them suggested that we come back again, which Carol did, by herself, a couple of days later while I was occupied with something else a few streets over. The idea that one must follow a certain protocol when photographing people on the street is such crap. People are people, and most like to engage in conversation and passing the time of day. As a person (not as a photographer) I have to understand where I'm welcome and where I'm not. To just arbitrarily avoid any situation where one *might not* be welcome is foolish. To *intrude*, of course, is just as foolish. If you were walking down your street, in your neighborhood, and came across a couple of well-dressed people standing around talking, would you not say hello as you passed by? Might you not reply to a response? Have you never passed the time of day with a stranger, perhaps someone waiting for a bus, or shared a table at a busy restaurant with someone you didn't know? Like I said, people are people, and we were just being human. Shel
Re: PAW PESO - Hangin' Out in San Francisco
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:56:53 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Shel, It's looking quite good, but it lacks any strong blacks (at least on my monitor). However, I don't think it would benefit from more contrast as the highlights are about right. I'd go into curves and pull the bottom end until the blacks are stronger. I might also try converting to rgb and going to selective color to add black to the blacks. Paul I missed the initial post (or more accurately, it missed me; I never got it). I'm glad I saw Paul's reply, though, as it's a wonderful photo. A document of its times. I may say more later, as I have to grab supper, but I really like this a great deal. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson
