Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
From: Doug Franklin On 2010-02-02 21:10, John Sessoms wrote: > I've disagreed with bosses before. If they're wrong, they're wrong. > > And I've done my share of following the bosses orders even when I knew > they were wrong. I've always dealt with it the way the US military often does: when the boss is planning, and asks my opinion, I give it; when the orders come down, I shut the hell up and do what I'm told. And I never say "I told you so", though I think it often, and throw a wink at the boss in question just infrequently enough that he doesn't catch on. :-) Well, I've got more sense than to gloat and say "I told you so", but it's been my experience that when the boss asks advice and you give it ... and then the boss screws up by not following that advice ... he hears that "I told you so" every time he looks at you whether you ever say it or not. And the boss is not going to blame you for the screw up - inside his own head if not out loud. And that's also "the way the US military often does". That is, in fact, where figured out this little bit of wisdom; training brand new second lieutenant platoon leaders. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
On 2010-02-02 21:10, John Sessoms wrote: I've disagreed with bosses before. If they're wrong, they're wrong. And I've done my share of following the bosses orders even when I knew they were wrong. I've always dealt with it the way the US military often does: when the boss is planning, and asks my opinion, I give it; when the orders come down, I shut the hell up and do what I'm told. And I never say "I told you so", though I think it often, and throw a wink at the boss in question just infrequently enough that he doesn't catch on. :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
I've found they forget pretty quick (usually), there's always someone who doesn't accept the negative light even when it's their doing... I make it a point never to say I told you so. I just calmly outline the fix, estimate the time it will take, and proceed when given the green light. It often means they more willing to listen the next time around. I used to hate this game when I was half as young as I am now. Now I understand the objective AND the rules. :-) Tom C. On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:10 PM, John Sessoms wrote: > From: Leon Altoff >> >> John, >> >> You make the points I was wanting to make, thanks for saving me the >> effort. >> >> I would point out that even if it is your boss tha is making the >> suggestion you can still argue with it (I have several times and often >> win the discussion). The boss always has the option to say "Do it >> anyway.", but at least my concerns were raised. >> >> Mind you Australians tend to be direct. > > I've disagreed with bosses before. If they're wrong, they're wrong. > > And I've done my share of following the bosses orders even when I knew they > were wrong. Seems like the only time disagreeing with the boss comes back to > haunt you is when you're right and he's wrong. > > They'll forgive you if you screw up, but they *NEVER* forget, never forgive > when they screw up by not following your suggestion. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
From: Leon Altoff John, You make the points I was wanting to make, thanks for saving me the effort. I would point out that even if it is your boss tha is making the suggestion you can still argue with it (I have several times and often win the discussion). The boss always has the option to say "Do it anyway.", but at least my concerns were raised. Mind you Australians tend to be direct. I've disagreed with bosses before. If they're wrong, they're wrong. And I've done my share of following the bosses orders even when I knew they were wrong. Seems like the only time disagreeing with the boss comes back to haunt you is when you're right and he's wrong. They'll forgive you if you screw up, but they *NEVER* forget, never forgive when they screw up by not following your suggestion. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
John, You make the points I was wanting to make, thanks for saving me the effort. I would point out that even if it is your boss tha is making the suggestion you can still argue with it (I have several times and often win the discussion). The boss always has the option to say "Do it anyway.", but at least my concerns were raised. Mind you Australians tend to be direct. Leon > > Your trip was more or less to the southern US, where I grew up. > > If you said "I suggest" to me, I would take it to mean just that - you're > making a suggestion. > > UNLESS you were my BOSS saying "I suggest" ... then, I would interpret it as > an order. > > But, if you're just one of the team that has several options available, "I > suggest" would indicate a preference for one option over the others. > > It's still not an order unless the "suggestion" is coming from the boss. > > The "Perhaps we could proceed like so and so" is more language suitable for > seeking compromise when team members have differing preferences. > > Team member A wants option #1; team member B wants option #2 and both are > kind of stubborn about their choice, so Team member C says "Perhaps we could > proceed like so and so" to offer a compromise that might bring both parties > closer together. > > There used to be a cliché here in the U.S. that went something like "What > you are understanding is not necessarily what I'm saying." > > It's frequently difficult to clearly communicate what you really mean even > when there is no cultural differences in the way words are perceived. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Question of English, American and otherwise
From: Boris Liberman Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke rather harsh language. Here is an example. I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have been interpreted properly. Few questions: 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. 2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases so that I would at least word things in exact way in which I want myself to be understood. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something and be understood very differently than originally intended... Your trip was more or less to the southern US, where I grew up. If you said "I suggest" to me, I would take it to mean just that - you're making a suggestion. UNLESS you were my BOSS saying "I suggest" ... then, I would interpret it as an order. But, if you're just one of the team that has several options available, "I suggest" would indicate a preference for one option over the others. It's still not an order unless the "suggestion" is coming from the boss. The "Perhaps we could proceed like so and so" is more language suitable for seeking compromise when team members have differing preferences. Team member A wants option #1; team member B wants option #2 and both are kind of stubborn about their choice, so Team member C says "Perhaps we could proceed like so and so" to offer a compromise that might bring both parties closer together. There used to be a cliché here in the U.S. that went something like "What you are understanding is not necessarily what I'm saying." It's frequently difficult to clearly communicate what you really mean even when there is no cultural differences in the way words are perceived. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Thomas Bohn wrote: > Moin, > > One of my English teachers in school warned us about the usage of the > word "Sir", because as non-native speakers we could hit the wrong tone > w/o even knowing it. > > And now I just have to bring in the future EU energy commissioner > Günther Öttinger and his attempt to speak English in public: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAohH3I01l0 I use "sir" often. But then I'm not a native English speaker. I'm Canadian. cheers, frank ;-) -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
2010/2/1 Bob W : > At least he's not trying to sing the Welsh national anthem: But he will be the next EU energy comissioner, and has no clue about energy policy or the English language. What anthems concerns, I can't sing mine either. I always forget the lyrics. So what? Thomas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 08:54:03AM -0500, Tom C scripsit: [snip] > When one specifically states that something is a suggestion, I don't > know how it can be interpreted otherwise unless it is almost > deliberately misinterpreted. Words are chosen, usually with the intent > of accurately expressing the thoughts of the speaker. Turning down "I suggest" requires a direct refusal. There are (in my rather tactful opinion entirely too gods-be-feathered many) people who consider the point of politeness to be arranging matters so they never have to say "no" directly. (The ones who consider this point to include never having to say "yes" directly are a different class of problem.) Much depends on audience; the VP Sales at a primary software vendor at one project I worked on was horrified by the level of argument I and their technical team would get into. We were having a great time, and the project was better for the candour. -- Graydon -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
Kenneth Waller http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f - Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert" Subject: Re: Question of English, American and otherwise On 01/02/2010, Boris Liberman wrote: Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke rather harsh language. Here is an example. I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have been interpreted properly. He's simply too sensitive in my humble opinion. But he's the boss, so he must be correct. ;-} -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
On 1/2/10, Boris Liberman, discombobulated, unleashed: > >I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and >according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an >order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among >several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it >something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have >been interpreted properly. Load of balogna. I suggest is fine and I would not have taken that as an order. If you want to be finicky, and very British: 'May I suggest" -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Question of English, American and otherwise
> Moin, > > One of my English teachers in school warned us about the > usage of the word "Sir", because as non-native speakers we > could hit the wrong tone w/o even knowing it. > > And now I just have to bring in the future EU energy > commissioner Günther Öttinger and his attempt to speak > English in public: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAohH3I01l0 > At least he's not trying to sing the Welsh national anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIwBvjoLyZc Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
I wouldn't be too hard on him, he's a bureaucrat, he's probably
unintelligible in German as well...
On 2/1/2010 11:13 AM, Thomas Bohn wrote:
Moin,
One of my English teachers in school warned us about the usage of the
word "Sir", because as non-native speakers we could hit the wrong tone
w/o even knowing it.
And now I just have to bring in the future EU energy commissioner
Günther Öttinger and his attempt to speak English in public:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAohH3I01l0
Thomas
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Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
Antennae? I always thought you were and earthly alien.
On 2/1/2010 3:46 AM, AlunFoto wrote:
It's the curse of not being native English speakers. It _can_ be a
source of misunderstandings, but in general I believe both brits and
americans are more forgiving than your boss would have you think.
Especially about business/science/problem-solving/etc. topics. That's
my experience anyway.
To me, smalltalk is where intonation suddenly conveys strange and
unfathomable things.OTOH, that could speak more about the shortness of
my social antennae than anything else, I guess. :-)
Jostein
2010/2/1 Boris Liberman:
Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke
rather harsh language. Here is an example.
I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and
according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an
order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among
several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it
something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have
been interpreted properly.
Few questions:
1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland
not far from Washington, DC, if that matters.
2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases so that
I would at least word things in exact way in which I want myself to be
understood. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something
and be understood very differently than originally intended...
Thanks in advance.
P.S. Replies off-list will be appreciated as well.
--
Boris
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Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
Moin, One of my English teachers in school warned us about the usage of the word "Sir", because as non-native speakers we could hit the wrong tone w/o even knowing it. And now I just have to bring in the future EU energy commissioner Günther Öttinger and his attempt to speak English in public: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAohH3I01l0 Thomas -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
What are you suggesting Bob? :-) On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: > Boris, > I think you have ventured into the tricky landscape of selling your > ideas to people. > I suspect Tom C. is very right about what 'tone' and manner you used. > 'I suggest' is pretty direct language from a vendor to a client. > 'You might want to think about doing something like this...' or > 'One way to do this could be...' or > 'It's just my 2 cents, but it might be easier to...' or the old classic > 'Forgive my poor English skills/ Russian directness/ geeky social skills...' > My bet is that you are projecting an image of being too DIRECTIVE in > your meetings and that you need to be more CONSULTATIVE. > (Think of it like an old friend suggesting you might want to do this > or that to get along better with your girlfriend) > It's not a matter of good technical work, but an issue of sweet > talking the client. > You are of an age and experience level where these skills will make a > big difference. > Listen to your boss. Ask for his/her feedback on how each meeting goes. > Take this as advice from another technical expert who has stumbled and > fallen over these issues many times. :-) > Regards, Bob S. > > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Tom C wrote: >> Boris, >> >> If I had said exactly what you said, I would feel exactly as you feel. >> >> When one specifically states that something is a suggestion, I don't >> know how it can be interpreted otherwise unless it is almost >> deliberately misinterpreted. Words are chosen, usually with the intent >> of accurately expressing the thoughts of the speaker. >> >> Now if you gruffly said "I SUGGEST YOU THIS & THAT...", then speech >> can be colored by tone of voice. Or, if a debate had preceded your >> words, then possibly they could have come across with a tone of >> finality, as opposed to suggesting just one possible option. >> >> ... or it could be the listener is/was not prone to listening to suggestions. >> >> Tom C. >> >> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: >>> Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke >>> rather harsh language. Here is an example. >>> >>> I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and >>> according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an >>> order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among >>> several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it >>> something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have >>> been interpreted properly. >>> >>> Few questions: >>> >>> 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland >>> not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. >>> 2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases so that >>> I would at least word things in exact way in which I want myself to be >>> understood. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something >>> and be understood very differently than originally intended... >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> P.S. Replies off-list will be appreciated as well. >>> >>> -- >>> Boris >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the directions. >>> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
Boris, I think you have ventured into the tricky landscape of selling your ideas to people. I suspect Tom C. is very right about what 'tone' and manner you used. 'I suggest' is pretty direct language from a vendor to a client. 'You might want to think about doing something like this...' or 'One way to do this could be...' or 'It's just my 2 cents, but it might be easier to...' or the old classic 'Forgive my poor English skills/ Russian directness/ geeky social skills...' My bet is that you are projecting an image of being too DIRECTIVE in your meetings and that you need to be more CONSULTATIVE. (Think of it like an old friend suggesting you might want to do this or that to get along better with your girlfriend) It's not a matter of good technical work, but an issue of sweet talking the client. You are of an age and experience level where these skills will make a big difference. Listen to your boss. Ask for his/her feedback on how each meeting goes. Take this as advice from another technical expert who has stumbled and fallen over these issues many times. :-) Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Tom C wrote: > Boris, > > If I had said exactly what you said, I would feel exactly as you feel. > > When one specifically states that something is a suggestion, I don't > know how it can be interpreted otherwise unless it is almost > deliberately misinterpreted. Words are chosen, usually with the intent > of accurately expressing the thoughts of the speaker. > > Now if you gruffly said "I SUGGEST YOU THIS & THAT...", then speech > can be colored by tone of voice. Or, if a debate had preceded your > words, then possibly they could have come across with a tone of > finality, as opposed to suggesting just one possible option. > > ... or it could be the listener is/was not prone to listening to suggestions. > > Tom C. > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: >> Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke >> rather harsh language. Here is an example. >> >> I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and >> according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an >> order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among >> several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it >> something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have >> been interpreted properly. >> >> Few questions: >> >> 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland >> not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. >> 2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases so that >> I would at least word things in exact way in which I want myself to be >> understood. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something >> and be understood very differently than originally intended... >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> P.S. Replies off-list will be appreciated as well. >> >> -- >> Boris >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
Thanks everyone who replied. The issue is much clearer to me now! -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
Boris, If I had said exactly what you said, I would feel exactly as you feel. When one specifically states that something is a suggestion, I don't know how it can be interpreted otherwise unless it is almost deliberately misinterpreted. Words are chosen, usually with the intent of accurately expressing the thoughts of the speaker. Now if you gruffly said "I SUGGEST YOU THIS & THAT...", then speech can be colored by tone of voice. Or, if a debate had preceded your words, then possibly they could have come across with a tone of finality, as opposed to suggesting just one possible option. ... or it could be the listener is/was not prone to listening to suggestions. Tom C. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: > Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke > rather harsh language. Here is an example. > > I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and > according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an > order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among > several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it > something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have > been interpreted properly. > > Few questions: > > 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland > not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. > 2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases so that > I would at least word things in exact way in which I want myself to be > understood. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something > and be understood very differently than originally intended... > > Thanks in advance. > > P.S. Replies off-list will be appreciated as well. > > -- > Boris > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
On 2010-02-01 3:05, Boris Liberman wrote: I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among several possible courses of action. 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. It would not be the case to me. I would think it a suggestion, not an order. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something and be understood very differently than originally intended... I would think that sort of thing would be more on the line of personal preferences than any widespread (dis)agreement with the "I suggest ..." phrasing. I don't know too many people that would interpret that as an order, unless spoken by one's "boss", a cop, or some other authority figure. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
2010/2/1 Bob W : >> >> To me, smalltalk is where intonation suddenly conveys strange >> and unfathomable things.OTOH, that could speak more about the >> shortness of my social antennae than anything else, I guess. :-) >> >> Jostein > > It's been the sole topic of conversation here since your last visit... > > Bob Uhoh. That bad, eh? Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
Boris Liberman wrote: > Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke > rather harsh language. Here is an example. > > I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and > according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an > order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among > several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it > something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have > been interpreted properly. > > Few questions: > > 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland > not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. > 2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases so that > I would at least word things in exact way in which I want myself to be > understood. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something > and be understood very differently than originally intended... > > Thanks in advance. > > P.S. Replies off-list will be appreciated as well. I second Bob. Your "suggestion" is stronger than an exposure of possibilities but only technically or in the specific case that you were completely in charge and were proposing what you wanted to be the solution, in a polite manner. This is compounded by English (and probably moreso American) being in a constant state of flux and what means one thing today may mean something slightly (or radically) different in a decade's time. Whatever [8-)] this is a trivial matter in most instances. In those where it may have some consequence, I believe your grasp of English is more than adequate to understand and deal with that. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Question of English, American and otherwise
> > To me, smalltalk is where intonation suddenly conveys strange > and unfathomable things.OTOH, that could speak more about the > shortness of my social antennae than anything else, I guess. :-) > > Jostein It's been the sole topic of conversation here since your last visit... Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Question of English, American and otherwise
> Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out > that I spoke rather harsh language. Here is an example. > > I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" > and according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted > specifically as an order, not as a suggestion or as an > indication of one option among several possible courses of > action. My boss indicated that wording it something like > "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have been > interpreted properly. > > Few questions: > > 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to > Maryland not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. > 2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases > so that I would at least word things in exact way in which I > want myself to be understood. As you realize, it is rather > frustrating to say something and be understood very > differently than originally intended... > It sounds like the sort of comment a native speaker might make if he has no experience of 2nd language learning and little or no experience of talking to people who are not using their own mother tongue. Alternatively, it could be the comment of a non-native speaker with a great deal of experience who is over-applying a lesson. In short, he should cut you some slack. Having said that, he is correct in saying that "I suggest that we..." could be heard as a recommendation that might limit slightly the other person's options. "Perhaps we could..." has slighty less force and gives the other person the final choice. But it certainly isn't harsh - it's a subtle point and very few native speakers would give a tinker's damn, frankly, even if they noticed it. If you want to polish your English to that extent, I would suggest (!) that you find an experienced local EFL school, explain to them what you have explained above, and find out if they can provide a suitable course for you. You'd be hard pressed to get this sort of thing out of a book. Your English is probably already at or beyond CEFR C2 level, I should think. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
what rob said just relax, you're probably just fine cheers ecke 2010/2/1 Rob Studdert : > On 01/02/2010, Boris Liberman wrote: >> Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke >> rather harsh language. Here is an example. >> >> I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and >> according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an >> order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among >> several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it >> something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have >> been interpreted properly. > > He's simply too sensitive in my humble opinion. > > -- > Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) > Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours > Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
It's the curse of not being native English speakers. It _can_ be a source of misunderstandings, but in general I believe both brits and americans are more forgiving than your boss would have you think. Especially about business/science/problem-solving/etc. topics. That's my experience anyway. To me, smalltalk is where intonation suddenly conveys strange and unfathomable things.OTOH, that could speak more about the shortness of my social antennae than anything else, I guess. :-) Jostein 2010/2/1 Boris Liberman : > Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke > rather harsh language. Here is an example. > > I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and > according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an > order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among > several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it > something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have > been interpreted properly. > > Few questions: > > 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland > not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. > 2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases so that > I would at least word things in exact way in which I want myself to be > understood. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something > and be understood very differently than originally intended... > > Thanks in advance. > > P.S. Replies off-list will be appreciated as well. > > -- > Boris > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Question of English, American and otherwise
On 01/02/2010, Boris Liberman wrote: > Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke > rather harsh language. Here is an example. > > I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and > according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an > order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among > several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it > something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have > been interpreted properly. He's simply too sensitive in my humble opinion. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Question of English, American and otherwise
Having returned from the trip to USA, my boss pointed out that I spoke rather harsh language. Here is an example. I would say something like "I suggest that we do so and so" and according to my boss "I suggest" was interpreted specifically as an order, not as a suggestion or as an indication of one option among several possible courses of action. My boss indicated that wording it something like "Perhaps we could proceed like so or so" would have been interpreted properly. Few questions: 1. Is indeed this is the case? To the point, my trip was to Maryland not far from Washington, DC, if that matters. 2. Is there any place where I could read about common phrases so that I would at least word things in exact way in which I want myself to be understood. As you realize, it is rather frustrating to say something and be understood very differently than originally intended... Thanks in advance. P.S. Replies off-list will be appreciated as well. -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
