RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
I don't do that! JCO -Original Message- From: Kostas Kavoussanakis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 5:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, J. C. O'Connell wrote: KX has it and it works fine. Until you mount a variable aperture zoom. Kostas
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
William, I guess, I am, Mr A has taken a particular dislike to me, which I don't mind since I've killfiled the A***, I'd much rather argue about Photography with people I like than anything with an obnoxious abrasive A***. The only time I see his posts is when others reply to them. I usually find this to be blissful. William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Antonio Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Except reliability also means consistency - if it never works then it is 100% consistent and hence reliable, whichh I wuold imagine was Peters spin on things. Who is Peter? Anyway, my experience with pentax AE is limited to the LX, Super Program and Program plus. On all three cameras (well 6 if you count samples I have used) I have had inexplicable underexposure errors randomly, but fairly frequently. Honestly, I don't know if it is caused by the ISO resistor, or the aperture estimator resistor. I do know that replacing the ISO resistor on the LX (I had all three of mine replaced with new ones last service) did not correct the problem. As you said, reliability and consistency are closely related. I honestly cannot depend on Pentax AE in the form I am used to using it in to be consistent, therefore it is unreliable. Regarding the istD and it's use of pre A lenses, the metering method is 100% consistent and reliable. This is an improvement. It means I can use pre A lenses using an automatic exposure method with an assuredness of correct exposure, something I have not enjoyed in the past. I am willing to take the extra button push to get an exposure that I am certain is correct, over an exposure that may be incorrect, especially since on a film camera, I have no way of knowing if the exposure was right or not until some time after taking the picture. William Robb -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Michel Carrère-Gée wrote: Christian a écrit : William Robb wrote on 9/21/2004, 12:07 PM: LX, and Super Program for sure. It's done via a window that projects a view of the aperture ring into the finder. William Robb LX and MX for sure. Super Program does not have a little window. At least mine didn't. And the fisrt equiped: the KX ! As long as we're taking an inventory the K2DMD. -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
I don't know of any camera that does give a readout of aperture with K/M lenses, even if it does have the aperture simulator lever. The same is true for A lense off the A setting. Nick -Original Message- From: William Robb[EMAIL PROTECTED] On the istD and a few of the film cameras, this lever (it's called an aperture simulator or aperture estimator) is missing. This removes any way for the lens to impart aperture information to the camera via mechanical means. Since pre A series lenses lack the ability to transmit such information electrically, metering operation is compromised. Also, the camera cannot give a readout of what aperture value is chosen.
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
I do. I'm not sure which. But I'm sure I had a Pengax camera with a small window and a mirror, showing the aperture setting on the aperture ring in the viewfinder - I do believe it was the MX :-) Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Nick Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 21. september 2004 17:32 Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Emne: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) I don't know of any camera that does give a readout of aperture with K/M lenses, even if it does have the aperture simulator lever. The same is true for A lense off the A setting. Nick -Original Message- From: William Robb[EMAIL PROTECTED] On the istD and a few of the film cameras, this lever (it's called an aperture simulator or aperture estimator) is missing. This removes any way for the lens to impart aperture information to the camera via mechanical means. Since pre A series lenses lack the ability to transmit such information electrically, metering operation is compromised. Also, the camera cannot give a readout of what aperture value is chosen.
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
But that's not exactly a readout in the sense that Nick and Rob probably meant. It's just a reflection of the aperture setting from the lens barrel. At least two of the LX finders had the same feature. Shel From: Jens Bladt [EMAIL PROTECTED] I do. I'm not sure which. But I'm sure I had a Pengax camera with a small window and a mirror, showing the aperture setting on the aperture ring in the viewfinder - I do believe it was the MX :-) Fra: Nick Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know of any camera that does give a readout of aperture with K/M lenses, even if it does have the aperture simulator lever. The same is true for A lense off the A setting.
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: Nick Clark Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) I don't know of any camera that does give a readout of aperture with K/M lenses, even if it does have the aperture simulator lever. The same is true for A lense off the A setting. LX, and Super Program for sure. It's done via a window that projects a view of the aperture ring into the finder. William Robb
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Hi Bill, The LX doesn't do that with all finders. The FA-2 finder doesn't allow for that feature. But is that really a readout ... not wanting to split hairs here, but just curious about how the terminology may be defined. I see a true readout as something different. Shel From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Nick Clark I don't know of any camera that does give a readout of aperture with K/M lenses, even if it does have the aperture simulator lever. The same is true for A lense off the A setting. LX, and Super Program for sure. It's done via a window that projects a view of the aperture ring into the finder.
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
William Robb wrote on 9/21/2004, 12:07 PM: LX, and Super Program for sure. It's done via a window that projects a view of the aperture ring into the finder. William Robb LX and MX for sure. Super Program does not have a little window. At least mine didn't. -- Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
William Robb wrote: Thats the only LX finder I don't have. You are missing one?? *stunned*. Malcolm
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: Jens Bladt Subject: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) So, how do Canon and Nikon DSLR's work. Do they work with pre-progam-AE lenses? Canon integrated DSLR's into the EOS system, which has a computer in each lens, more or less. Nikon's system is more interesting, since you need specific lens series' to get metering, or even operation in some cases. I don't think you can mount any non AI lens (thats Nikons equivalent to pre A series) on their modern cameras (F5 excepted), and I think (though I am kind of guessing) that you need one of the computer chipped lenses for DSLR use. William Robb
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: Malcolm Smith Subject: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Thats the only LX finder I don't have. You are missing one?? *stunned*. Hey, you think I am happy about it? William Robb
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
The Super Program gives you aperture readout in the digital indicator of the viewfinder, but only with the lens set to the A setting. And it's only accurate on a constant-aperture lens. But it is there. -Mat
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
K2DMD as well. Jim A. From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:07:01 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Resent-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:19:55 -0400 - Original Message - From: Nick Clark Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) I don't know of any camera that does give a readout of aperture with K/M lenses, even if it does have the aperture simulator lever. The same is true for A lense off the A setting. LX, and Super Program for sure. It's done via a window that projects a view of the aperture ring into the finder. William Robb
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: Nick Clark Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) I don't know of any camera that does give a readout of aperture with K/M lenses, even if it does have the aperture simulator lever. The same is true for A lense off the A setting. LX, and Super Program for sure. It's done via a window that projects a view of the aperture ring into the finder. William Robb The Super Program I had, didn't have such a window. Agree the LX does. Also KX and MX. ERN
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
And the fisrt equiped: the KX ! The K2 DMD has this feature, not the original K2
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:34:35 -0600, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Antonio Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Ahhh, I see. So the lever on a K/M lense is not exactly the same as the lever I see on my A lenses? has anyone looked at the new nickon lenses? they don't have an aperture ring at all, what about cannon? minolta doesn't. seams aperture rings are old hat? james
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: James Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) has anyone looked at the new nickon lenses? they don't have an aperture ring at all, what about cannon? minolta doesn't. seams aperture rings are old hat? Canon and Minolta dropped aperture rings when they went AF with the EOS and Maxxum series of cameras. As in both cases, the lens mount was totaly redesigned, and the compatability path with older lenses was terminated, it wasn't such a big deal (except for the total dropping of support for the now outdated equipment) Nikon and Pentax retained them to maintain backwards lens compatability, since they didn't change their mounts. Nikon dropped full compatability though, some 20 years ago when they went to the AI lens mount, and now they have quite the little minefield on their hands. Pentax should have maintained mount compatability, perhaps not with the ist film camera, but it would have been nice with the digital. I suspect that they just didn't see as much point in that as they did in putting a product on the market with as low a sticker price as possible, since DSLR buyers seem more price sensitive than feature sensitive when it comes to old lens issues. There are more people on this forum who would rather see image stabilization than K mount compatability, as an example. William Robb
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
I think Pentax has shown odd or inconsistante policies for camera settings: The MZ-S does not allow for setting the aperture from the camera body, only on the lens. Pentax ist, *ist D and *ist Ds (the ist series) do not support setting the aperture on the lens. Because these bodies do not have an aperture simulator. It's not that Pentax do not support K M lenses. They do in a way. The problem as I see it, is that Pentax ist-series doesn't support AE when setting the aperure on the lens. That actually goes for A, and FA lenses too! Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Kostas Kavoussanakis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 19. september 2004 10:24 Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Emne: Re: istDs - what a great camera! On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Paul Stenquist wrote: JCO's big gripe is with the way the *istD utilizes K and M lenses. Yes, but that's not what I was responding to or saying I agree with. Just read below, since you are quoting. that opinions based on pure speculation are not valid. You have to shoot with it for a week or two, then decide. Again, I never questioned that. I did some sniping below so you can see what my point is. Who had noticed that the MZ-60 does not work even with A-series lenses? Pentax *went of their way* to disable the use of these lenses. Where does this stop? Kostas On Sep 18, 2004, at 8:16 AM, Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Paul Stenquist wrote: On Sep 18, 2004, at 7:31 AM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: You guys don't seem to understand the implication of abandoning support of K/M lenses with no technical ( and no one has yet proven it was a cost issue either) reason to do so. They have crossed the line and can longer be trusted to support anything you buy for any time as they may decide whatever they want to do on anything. That's completely irrelevant if you're the only person who feels that way. And it appears that you're quite alone on this one. No sorry Paul, I am with him on this one. There are a few inaccuracies in JCO's mail, but I also feel bad, particularly now that I understand what they did with the MZ-60. I am now happy that the green button would work for me. I am happy to recommend the *ist-D (I am still not sold on the digital idea, which is why I am nor saying to buy). I am not keen to recommend even the *ist to a beginner. I was irate when I heard what they had done when they first released the *ist-D. I felt a sucker (the sucker that I was?) when I realised my MZ-50 is crippled, but took it on the chin as it is a beginner's camera. I am still worried about the slippery slope. Just like JCO I may abandon Pentax (or any manufacturer; I would never buy a BMW after what they did to Rover) irrespective of my investment, on what I would consider a matter of principle. I am currently not pissed off enough, but I cannot but feel that Pentax will abandon even the botch in the not-so-distant future. Kostas
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Jens said: I think Pentax has shown odd or inconsistante policies for camera settings: The MZ-S does not allow for setting the aperture from the camera body, only on the lens. Pentax ist, *ist D and *ist Ds (the ist series) do not support setting the aperture on the lens. Because these bodies do not have an aperture simulator. It's not that Pentax do not support K M lenses. They do in a way. The problem as I see it, is that Pentax ist-series doesn't support AE when setting the aperure on the lens. That actually goes for A, and FA lenses too! Yep, and the ZX-series was *totally* inconsistent. ZX-5 and ZX-5n -- the user could not set the aperture from the body, only on the lens ZX-10 -- the user could set the aperture from either body or lens ZX-30, -50, -60 -- the user could not set the aperture on the lens, only from the body (and I don't know about the -7 and the -6, but I'm guessing they're like the - 10?) ERN
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Jens wrote, inter alia: The problem as I see it, is that Pentax ist-series doesn't support AE when setting the aperure on the lens. That actually goes for A, and FA lenses too! Yes, but there is no need to set the aperture on the lens when you can set it on the camera (I'm talking about A and later lenses). Why provide two ways to do something? It just increases cost and complexity. John On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:41:02 +0200, Jens Bladt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Pentax has shown odd or inconsistante policies for camera settings: The MZ-S does not allow for setting the aperture from the camera body, only on the lens. Pentax ist, *ist D and *ist Ds (the ist series) do not support setting the aperture on the lens. Because these bodies do not have an aperture simulator. It's not that Pentax do not support K M lenses. They do in a way. The problem as I see it, is that Pentax ist-series doesn't support AE when setting the aperure on the lens. That actually goes for A, and FA lenses too! Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Kostas Kavoussanakis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 19. september 2004 10:24 Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Emne: Re: istDs - what a great camera! On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Paul Stenquist wrote: JCO's big gripe is with the way the *istD utilizes K and M lenses. Yes, but that's not what I was responding to or saying I agree with. Just read below, since you are quoting. that opinions based on pure speculation are not valid. You have to shoot with it for a week or two, then decide. Again, I never questioned that. I did some sniping below so you can see what my point is. Who had noticed that the MZ-60 does not work even with A-series lenses? Pentax *went of their way* to disable the use of these lenses. Where does this stop? Kostas On Sep 18, 2004, at 8:16 AM, Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Paul Stenquist wrote: On Sep 18, 2004, at 7:31 AM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: You guys don't seem to understand the implication of abandoning support of K/M lenses with no technical ( and no one has yet proven it was a cost issue either) reason to do so. They have crossed the line and can longer be trusted to support anything you buy for any time as they may decide whatever they want to do on anything. That's completely irrelevant if you're the only person who feels that way. And it appears that you're quite alone on this one. No sorry Paul, I am with him on this one. There are a few inaccuracies in JCO's mail, but I also feel bad, particularly now that I understand what they did with the MZ-60. I am now happy that the green button would work for me. I am happy to recommend the *ist-D (I am still not sold on the digital idea, which is why I am nor saying to buy). I am not keen to recommend even the *ist to a beginner. I was irate when I heard what they had done when they first released the *ist-D. I felt a sucker (the sucker that I was?) when I realised my MZ-50 is crippled, but took it on the chin as it is a beginner's camera. I am still worried about the slippery slope. Just like JCO I may abandon Pentax (or any manufacturer; I would never buy a BMW after what they did to Rover) irrespective of my investment, on what I would consider a matter of principle. I am currently not pissed off enough, but I cannot but feel that Pentax will abandon even the botch in the not-so-distant future. Kostas -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Now I am getting a little confused. So there must be a lever on the ist for it to set the apeture on the lens, correct? A. On 19/9/04 3:09 pm, John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but there is no need to set the aperture on the lens when you can set it on the camera (I'm talking about A and later lenses). Why provide two ways to do something? It just increases cost and complexity. John
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Regarding the reliablility factor, HAVING a K/M lens cam/postional sensor is far more reliable than removing it altogether. Really? William Robb Yes, at least it would work for a long while. Without it at all, it NEVER works. No open aperture AE with K/M lenses EVER period. The ultimate in unreliablity. JCO
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Except reliability also means consistency - if it never works then it is 100% consistent and hence reliable, whichh I wuold imagine was Peters spin on things. A. On 19/9/04 6:10 pm, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Regarding the reliablility factor, HAVING a K/M lens cam/postional sensor is far more reliable than removing it altogether. Really? William Robb Yes, at least it would work for a long while. Without it at all, it NEVER works. No open aperture AE with K/M lenses EVER period. The ultimate in unreliablity. JCO
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) I stated the FACT, not an opinion. The major expense of the *istD is the digital capture. The sensor alone probably costs more than the entire rest of the camera including the AF and exposure systems combined. So if one chooses to use K/M lenses they are NOT wasting most of the money spent on the camera like you claimed. The fact is, people don't really give a shit about what costs what in a camera. They are buying a feature set. That feature set needs to include AF and programmed exposure. Without them, the relative value of the camera drops. What they are spending most of their money on is a digital camera with auto focus and auto exposure. Take away the AF and AE, and you have removed 2/3 of the cameras value, no matter where the money really is. Secondly, You have clearly contradicted yourself! In your first sentence you claim the majority of buyer and even some pros use program exposure which is even more automated than Aperture preffered AE, and then then it you last sentence you go on to say than K/M lenses work fine WITHOUT true AE let alone a programmed mode. Make up your mind. You cant argue FOR BOTH opposite ends of the matter!!! Actually, if you care to read it again, you will find that what I said was that those of us who have tried the camera with pre A lenses aren't seeing a lot of operational problems. A pre A lens is not capable of either auto focus, shutter preferred automatic or programmed exposure modes. Given the severe operational limitations that pre A lenses force onto the user as a given, they work fine. Have you tried an istD with a pre A lens yet? Do I really have to keep discussing this with you in ever more frustrating baby talk? William Robb
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
While all this ranting and raving has been going on this morning, I was surfing the digicam review sites, and dropped in a Steve's place. Steve has a list of digital cameras he feels are the best. ... the best in terms of resolution, image quality and overall bang for the buck. Listed in the group of enthusiast cameras is the istD just thought I'd drop a little note about that. Shel
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) JC, Have you used the istD with a pre A lens for anything other than a bitch about it in a camera store? The answer will either be yes, or no. == I don't give simple yes no answers, when much more is needed. I have used all of the following many times: 1. Cameras with fixed exposure (disposables) 2. Unmetered manual 3. External Metered manual 4. TTL SSTOPDOWN Metered Manual 5 TTL Open aperture Metered Manual 6. TTL STOPDOWN Aperture priority AE 7. TTL Open aperture Aperture priority AE 8. TTL open aperture Shutter priority AE 9. TTL open aperture Programmed AE I stongly prefer to use only 3, 5 and 7. While #9 might have its occasional valid need, I havent ever really needed it because based on my vast experience with #2,#3, and #4 I can generally get the fstop in the ballpark and use #7 instead of #9. This ist D mode green button mode (#10) is new but based on the description of operation with K/M lenses it is a hybrid of #4 and #6 above. While it is probably easier to use than #4 or #5, the fact that it is STOPDOWN is not as good as #5 or #7 because smaller fstops will reduced the meter sensitivity greatly. It is certainly INFERIOR to to #7 in every way. Not as automated, as fast to use, and the meter sensitivity reduction is worse. If the *istd had the very simple aperture cam sensor, it could do #5 #7 intead of #10 or possibly all three #5, #7, and #10 which would be a major improvement. NO, I have not used an *istD. I will not consider buying one either for many reasons, the K/M lack of support is just one of them. There is no point is trying a camera I know do not want based on its features/ specifications or lack of them. JCO
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: Antonio Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Except reliability also means consistency - if it never works then it is 100% consistent and hence reliable, whichh I wuold imagine was Peters spin on things. Who is Peter? Anyway, my experience with pentax AE is limited to the LX, Super Program and Program plus. On all three cameras (well 6 if you count samples I have used) I have had inexplicable underexposure errors randomly, but fairly frequently. Honestly, I don't know if it is caused by the ISO resistor, or the aperture estimator resistor. I do know that replacing the ISO resistor on the LX (I had all three of mine replaced with new ones last service) did not correct the problem. As you said, reliability and consistency are closely related. I honestly cannot depend on Pentax AE in the form I am used to using it in to be consistent, therefore it is unreliable. Regarding the istD and it's use of pre A lenses, the metering method is 100% consistent and reliable. This is an improvement. It means I can use pre A lenses using an automatic exposure method with an assuredness of correct exposure, something I have not enjoyed in the past. I am willing to take the extra button push to get an exposure that I am certain is correct, over an exposure that may be incorrect, especially since on a film camera, I have no way of knowing if the exposure was right or not until some time after taking the picture. William Robb
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) NO, I have not used an *istD. Then your pronouncements about the camera's operation are based on ignorance and presumption, as opposed to knowing what you are talking about. For myself, this discussion cannot go any further for this reason. William Robb
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
So now you are comparing working cameras (newish *istD) to older but broken ones? That doesn't make much sense. There is nothing wrong with the way they sensed the cams on the K/M lenses. They did it for about 30 years so I think you have to give the engineers a little more respect than that. I am not saying the part never wears out but you don't remove a MAJOR IMPORTANT feature like open aperture metering and AE because someday a part might fail or wear out. That makes no sense. There all all sort of things that can and so wear out after usage. The solution is not to remove them, the solution is design them better and I have no reason to believe the Pentax Engineers were no capable of doing that after 30 years of field experience. In fact ALL SLRS wear out. They do not last anywhere near as long as the lenses. THAT is why I take issue over the lack of support of the K/M lenses on new expensive models like the *istD. Pentax buyers need to keep replacing the bodies for their lenses and to abandon good features on perfectly working older K/M lenses for no good reason is not right. JCO -Original Message- From: William Robb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) - Original Message - From: Antonio Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Except reliability also means consistency - if it never works then it is 100% consistent and hence reliable, whichh I wuold imagine was Peters spin on things. Who is Peter? Anyway, my experience with pentax AE is limited to the LX, Super Program and Program plus. On all three cameras (well 6 if you count samples I have used) I have had inexplicable underexposure errors randomly, but fairly frequently. Honestly, I don't know if it is caused by the ISO resistor, or the aperture estimator resistor. I do know that replacing the ISO resistor on the LX (I had all three of mine replaced with new ones last service) did not correct the problem. As you said, reliability and consistency are closely related. I honestly cannot depend on Pentax AE in the form I am used to using it in to be consistent, therefore it is unreliable. Regarding the istD and it's use of pre A lenses, the metering method is 100% consistent and reliable. This is an improvement. It means I can use pre A lenses using an automatic exposure method with an assuredness of correct exposure, something I have not enjoyed in the past. I am willing to take the extra button push to get an exposure that I am certain is correct, over an exposure that may be incorrect, especially since on a film camera, I have no way of knowing if the exposure was right or not until some time after taking the picture. William Robb
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
After I fully just explained ALL exposure systems in existance, my experience with their usage and pros and cons of each you give a really lame, dumb reply like that? Green button mode aint as good as a true AE mode period. See my last post, I explained why. I don't need to buy or hold or use the the thing to KNOW that. Just like I don't need to go to Alaska to know there is snow there. Go ahead, like your istD but don't try to tell me the sky is green when it is obvious it is blue. Oh, Maybe if I push a a little green button the sky will turn green for me? JCO -Original Message- From: William Robb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) NO, I have not used an *istD. Then your pronouncements about the camera's operation are based on ignorance and presumption, as opposed to knowing what you are talking about. For myself, this discussion cannot go any further for this reason. William Robb
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Good question. A. On 19/9/04 6:47 pm, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who is Peter?
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
All Pentax lenses starting with the A series have been designed so that moving the stopdown lever a precise linear distance changes the f-stop one stop, so cameras designed to use those lenses can set the aperture that way. K and M lenses do not have calibrated linear movement so used a feedback lever to tell the camera body what aperture the lens was set to. The coupling for that lever has been left out of the *ist series cameras. That is why A and later lenses work fine, but they need a work around to use the meter with K and M lenses. As far as I know the only recent body to have that feedback lever coupling is the top of the line MZ-S which fact in itself tells you how Pentax is thinking about this. -- Antonio wrote: Now I am getting a little confused. So there must be a lever on the ist for it to set the apeture on the lens, correct? A. On 19/9/04 3:09 pm, John Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but there is no need to set the aperture on the lens when you can set it on the camera (I'm talking about A and later lenses). Why provide two ways to do something? It just increases cost and complexity. John
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Yes, but there is no need to set the aperture on the lens when you can set it on the camera (I'm talking about A and later lenses). Why provide two ways to do something? It just increases cost and complexity. John There is. First of all its safer to set the aperture at the lens, so you don't change it accidently (when using a flash). Secondly because this will allow you to use pre A lemses, of course! Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: John Forbes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 19. september 2004 15:10 Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Emne: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Jens wrote, inter alia: The problem as I see it, is that Pentax ist-series doesn't support AE when setting the aperure on the lens. That actually goes for A, and FA lenses too! Yes, but there is no need to set the aperture on the lens when you can set it on the camera (I'm talking about A and later lenses). Why provide two ways to do something? It just increases cost and complexity. John On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:41:02 +0200, Jens Bladt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Pentax has shown odd or inconsistante policies for camera settings: The MZ-S does not allow for setting the aperture from the camera body, only on the lens. Pentax ist, *ist D and *ist Ds (the ist series) do not support setting the aperture on the lens. Because these bodies do not have an aperture simulator. It's not that Pentax do not support K M lenses. They do in a way. The problem as I see it, is that Pentax ist-series doesn't support AE when setting the aperure on the lens. That actually goes for A, and FA lenses too! Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Kostas Kavoussanakis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 19. september 2004 10:24 Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Emne: Re: istDs - what a great camera! On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Paul Stenquist wrote: JCO's big gripe is with the way the *istD utilizes K and M lenses. Yes, but that's not what I was responding to or saying I agree with. Just read below, since you are quoting. that opinions based on pure speculation are not valid. You have to shoot with it for a week or two, then decide. Again, I never questioned that. I did some sniping below so you can see what my point is. Who had noticed that the MZ-60 does not work even with A-series lenses? Pentax *went of their way* to disable the use of these lenses. Where does this stop? Kostas On Sep 18, 2004, at 8:16 AM, Kostas Kavoussanakis wrote: On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Paul Stenquist wrote: On Sep 18, 2004, at 7:31 AM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: You guys don't seem to understand the implication of abandoning support of K/M lenses with no technical ( and no one has yet proven it was a cost issue either) reason to do so. They have crossed the line and can longer be trusted to support anything you buy for any time as they may decide whatever they want to do on anything. That's completely irrelevant if you're the only person who feels that way. And it appears that you're quite alone on this one. No sorry Paul, I am with him on this one. There are a few inaccuracies in JCO's mail, but I also feel bad, particularly now that I understand what they did with the MZ-60. I am now happy that the green button would work for me. I am happy to recommend the *ist-D (I am still not sold on the digital idea, which is why I am nor saying to buy). I am not keen to recommend even the *ist to a beginner. I was irate when I heard what they had done when they first released the *ist-D. I felt a sucker (the sucker that I was?) when I realised my MZ-50 is crippled, but took it on the chin as it is a beginner's camera. I am still worried about the slippery slope. Just like JCO I may abandon Pentax (or any manufacturer; I would never buy a BMW after what they did to Rover) irrespective of my investment, on what I would consider a matter of principle. I am currently not pissed off enough, but I cannot but feel that Pentax will abandon even the botch in the not-so-distant future. Kostas -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
Well, if I couldn't use old K and M lenses, I would have no reason to stay with Pentax - and I might as well switch to Canon! Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: William Robb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 19. september 2004 17:07 Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Emne: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) - Original Message - From: Andrew Bingham Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Or they wanted to sell new lenses. That was the route I took. What gets lost in the dead horse flogging is that there are some very good reasons to use more modern lenses on the istD. You get auto focus if you buy an AF lens, and you get program mode and shutter preferred automatic if you buy an A series or later lens. If you insist on sticking pre A lenses onto the thing, you are giving up most of the technology you bought when you plonked your money on the counter. William Robb For whatever reason, Pentax chose to remove the aperture estimator, which is required for pre A compatability. My guess, and it is just that, is that they decided that they had to make cameras tht were priced as low as possible to stay alive in the marketplace, but still retain some profitability, and they cut as many cost items out as they could to do it.
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, J. C. O'Connell wrote: Green button mode aint as good as a true AE mode period. See my last post, I explained why. Yes JC, but is it good enough? Noone said it's true Av and if they did, their problem. Is this mode good enough for you? Cause it's not going to get any better. Try the bloody camera. Kostas
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
This was made with an M-lens: http://gallery37564.fotopic.net/p7677532.html I found that for some serious work it's not too bad having to stop down to get the right shutterspeed. Anyway, for Panoramas like this, it's better to use manual exposure - that is same values for each shot - otherwise it may be too difficult to stitch them together, due to changing colours from shot to shot. The actual shooting is the easy part (except from getting the tripod exacly in level :-), including pressing the green button once for each panorama. This photgraph was made from 28 vertical RAW-shots - each 17MB, converted to TIFF's in Phase One SE, then converted to JPEG's, then stitched in Photo Vista 3.0, edited and compressed in Photoshop and finally published. It's not yet perfect - but I'm getting there:-)) Pentax *ist D, Pentax-F 1.7X AF adapter and SMC M* 4.0/300mm, Manfrotto tripod -and a lot of software. Cheers Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Kostas Kavoussanakis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 19. september 2004 21:19 Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Emne: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, J. C. O'Connell wrote: Green button mode aint as good as a true AE mode period. See my last post, I explained why. Yes JC, but is it good enough? Noone said it's true Av and if they did, their problem. Is this mode good enough for you? Cause it's not going to get any better. Try the bloody camera. Kostas
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
I have abandoned this discussion as well. It must really suck to be so angry about a camera. Paul On Sep 19, 2004, at 12:52 PM, William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) NO, I have not used an *istD. Then your pronouncements about the camera's operation are based on ignorance and presumption, as opposed to knowing what you are talking about. For myself, this discussion cannot go any further for this reason. William Robb
RE: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
On 19 Sep 2004 at 11:17, John C. O'Connell wrote: Come on dude, The only reason I would buy the *istD is DIGITAL CAPTURE technology, not program or shutter preferred auto modes or AF. I don't/won't use those. The major expense of the camera is digital capture and using a K/M lens on *istD is certainly not giving up most of the technology bought. Doesn't happen often but we are in agreement on this point. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
On 19 Sep 2004 at 14:09, John Forbes wrote: Yes, but there is no need to set the aperture on the lens when you can set it on the camera (I'm talking about A and later lenses). Why provide two ways to do something? It just increases cost and complexity. And how many metering modes and exposure modes does it have, surely everyone can learn to work in spot mode and shutter priority, why not kill off the rest? Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens (was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
On 19 Sep 2004 at 9:26, Shel Belinkoff wrote: While all this ranting and raving has been going on this morning, I was surfing the digicam review sites, and dropped in a Steve's place. Steve has a list of digital cameras he feels are the best. ... the best in terms of resolution, image quality and overall bang for the buck. Listed in the group of enthusiast cameras is the istD just thought I'd drop a little note about that. Pretty accurate assessment I'd say (but the price will start to look excessive very soon), I've looked at a lot of test images from 6MP cameras and I'd say that Pentax got closest to the best match of sensor and anti-aliasing filter. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses)
- Original Message - From: Antonio Subject: Re: *ist series support for setting the aperture on the lens(was: ist D AE mode for K M lenses) Ahhh, I see. So the lever on a K/M lense is not exactly the same as the lever I see on my A lenses? The levers on the lenses are the same. There is a lever in the camera body that mates to one of the levers (right side when facing the camera front) which mates with one of the lens levers. On the istD and a few of the film cameras, this lever (it's called an aperture simulator or aperture estimator) is missing. This removes any way for the lens to impart aperture information to the camera via mechanical means. Since pre A series lenses lack the ability to transmit such information electrically, metering operation is compromised. Also, the camera cannot give a readout of what aperture value is chosen. By adding green button metered manual to the camera's firmware, a means of metering with the lens has been created. Note, it is not really a manual mode, but a stop down aperture preferred automatic. In operation, the camera is set to manual exposure, the aperture desired is chosen, and the green button is pushed. This stops the lens down momentarily, the camera meters the scene at the shooting aperture and sets the shutter speed accordingly. It is pretty easy, and not really as big a deal as it's made out to be. It would be nice if full K mount implementation was there, but the lack of it does not turn the camera into a peice of shit. It just means that support for lenses that are more than 30 years old has been implemented differently, and definitely was done as an afterthought. William Robb
