Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Paul Ewins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 200km might be a little restrictive if you are trying to shoot motorsports :-) I'm fortunate to have two first-class tracks within that range; Laguna Seca and Sears Point. Theoretically, 200km gives me Albert Park (F1), Phillip Island (MotoGP), Sandown (V8 supercar), Calder (Drags) and Winton (V8 supercar) All right. I now officially hate both of you ;-) -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Herb, You may surprise yourself. I have done my share of weddings for friends. Only stiffed once ... but that is another tale. I must say that I was humbled when I agreed to shoot a friend's wedding. She eventually got engaged and the wedding was to be in New Hampshire. She still wanted me to do the wedding - they would pay whatever it would take! Talk about surprised. I live in Florida. We still keep in touch - she still talks of the photos I took. Same thing with another friend that flew me to Augusta, Georgia when I told her that I really did not look forward to all that driving... Another couple, whose wedding I shot, I happened to visit while in San Antonio, Texas. I was gobsmacked when I entered their living room and saw a 'bridal' portrait I had taken under a tree in a poster-sized enlargement above their mantle. Likewise the latest friend's wedding I did - only the informals. She has told me that the bw of them coming down the aisle - shot from the balcony - will be prominently displayed in their new home. I can readily pick apart an image I have taken, and I think we all can, I am still learning to appreciate my shots more though. I believe I mentioned on this list that as an added thank you for shooting the informals at the above mentioned wedding, Jen decided to have an image I took with my 645n in New Orleans enlarged, matted, and framed by her to present to me. I still look at it on occasion and have to remind myself that I took it... César Panama City, Florida in Baltimore, Maryland -- -Original Message- -- From: Herb Chong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 7:19 PM -- -- that was the reasoning behind why a friend of mine asked me -- to be backup -- photographer for her wedding, although i feel i am a rotten people -- photographer. her uncle, who used to do weddings part time, -- was who did the -- most important photos. she reasoned that having someone who -- knew something -- about composition and photography to catch informal slightly -- more than -- snapshots was important and that was what i did. she wasn't -- expecting shots -- to display like paintings on a wall, she wanted decent shots -- that would -- bring back memories. my brother asked me to take some photos -- at his wedding -- too, for much the same reasons. he paid for a good pro -- photographer for the -- formal shots and the wedding ceremony. of course, my mother -- could only -- imagine posed formal shots as the only kind that ought to be -- taken. luckily, -- she had no say in the matter. i still think i am a rotten wedding -- photographer and i am not going to let any of you offer a -- second opinion. -- -- Herb... -- - Original Message - -- From: Len Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:12 PM -- Subject: RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. -- -- -- The only thing it proves is that a lot of people are -- shopping more for -- best price than for best quality. It's always that way. -- You're going -- to have to get used to that. Shoot what you can and let -- your reputation -- grow. There is no substitute for word of mouth -- advertising. You will -- begin to get the couples that really want your style of -- shooting and -- will not mind paying fairly for it. Meanwhile, there will -- always be -- friends and relatives with cameras that are willing to do -- the job free -- or very cheap. Sometimes they have talent and ability, -- many times they -- don't. Let your portfolio and your website speak for you. -- --
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
HAR! The neighbourhood I lived here in Toronto until October is called St. Jamestown. Used to be upscale, for about 2 years in the 60's, when several dozen high-rise apartments were built in what amounts to about 2 city blocks. It's no longer upscale (that's an understatement!). Right now, they figure that about 30,000 live in those two city blocks, making it the most densely populated neighbourhood in North Amerca (or so we're told). Point is, there were about as many people within not much more than a 500 ~meter~ radius of where I lived as there are in a 200 km radius of Tanya. cheers, frank The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: mapson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 01:07:38 +1030 (about 11,000 of which are transient and not permanent residents, Emerald has around 20,, my town, Clermont, has just under 3000. And combined, all of the other smaller towns would make around 5 or 6000. So, I guess in total, within that 200km radius you asked about, there are about 40,000 at the very most. tan. So it's just like Toronto or NY, right? ;-D (*)o(*) Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
well, i figured 200km because that is as far as you want to drive on the day of the shoot and then drive back afterwards. there's room for only so many weddings total and so many wedding photographers. what i am leading toward, of course, is what kind of work can you do doesn't involve travel and where clients can be located much further away but you can do locally, or, how much can you do in other fields? Herb - Original Message - From: Tanya Mayer Photography [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:26 PM Subject: Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. Altogether, the population is like this - Moranbah has around 15,000 people (about 11,000 of which are transient and not permanent residents, Emerald has around 20,, my town, Clermont, has just under 3000. And combined, all of the other smaller towns would make around 5 or 6000. So, I guess in total, within that 200km radius you asked about, there are about 40,000 at the very most.
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
See, NOW you guys might *understand* a little more where I am coming from re: the pricing thingy...! BTW, I love living here. Our is on a 1/4 acre block, and our neighbours are ages away. I think the closest one is around 35 metres... It's great, and will be even better for privacy when we get our pool - which we bloody need today, it is SO hot... tan. HAR! The neighbourhood I lived here in Toronto until October is called St. Jamestown. Used to be upscale, for about 2 years in the 60's, when several dozen high-rise apartments were built in what amounts to about 2 city blocks. It's no longer upscale (that's an understatement!). Right now, they figure that about 30,000 live in those two city blocks, making it the most densely populated neighbourhood in North Amerca (or so we're told). Point is, there were about as many people within not much more than a 500 ~meter~ radius of where I lived as there are in a 200 km radius of Tanya. cheers, frank The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: mapson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 01:07:38 +1030 (about 11,000 of which are transient and not permanent residents, Emerald has around 20,, my town, Clermont, has just under 3000. And combined, all of the other smaller towns would make around 5 or 6000. So, I guess in total, within that 200km radius you asked about, there are about 40,000 at the very most. tan. So it's just like Toronto or NY, right? ;-D (*)o(*) Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
well, i figured 200km because that is as far as you want to drive on the day of the shoot and then drive back afterwards. there's room for only so many weddings total and so many wedding photographers. what i am leading toward, of course, is what kind of work can you do doesn't involve travel and where clients can be located much further away but you can do locally, or, how much can you do in other fields? 200km might be a little restrictive if you are trying to shoot motorsports :-) I'm fortunate to have two first-class tracks within that range; Laguna Seca and Sears Point.
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Tanya's got young kids. Herb - Original Message - From: John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. 200km might be a little restrictive if you are trying to shoot motorsports :-) I'm fortunate to have two first-class tracks within that range; Laguna Seca and Sears Point.
RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Peter Jordan wrote: One thing never to do when talking with your customers is to relating what you charge with what it costs you. They won't recognise your cost structure and vastly underestimate your costs.Say you go into a restaurant and query the £5 that they are charging for French Onion Soup. If the restraunteur says that he needs to charge that to cover his costs, you start thinking about onions at 30p per pound and scream rip-off. If he says that this is one of the better restaurants in town and people come here for the ambience, food quality and service that can make a meal out special and memorable, customers may react differently. (although there will always be the cheapskates that you never will convince). Reading this thread, I'm amazed that anyone becomes a professional photographer, so the public at large should be damn grateful some do! Taking it as read that going 'pro' means you are capable of consistent, excellent photographs, you have to then translate what people ask for into what they *actually* want. They don't want to spend much money when any other professional working at weekends or public holidays, would charge the pants off them. Then there are the cost sides, before you start taking photos. In today's friendly society, you need insurance to cover theft and accidents (caused by outside elements or your own assistants!), insurance to cover your own clients and others for tripping over your tripod and suing you for their own misadventure, overheads on keeping stock of film etc, your time for creating records for the tax authorities, invoicing, advertising (whether in print or web based), meetings with the bank or potential clients. All of this (sure I've missed much too) must be put into your charges, because the bottom line is the fact it is now a business, and there are many hours of work which aren't chargeable hours behind the camera. Anyone who makes a good living from this, deserves too. Darn hard work. Malcolm
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tanya Mayer Photography wrote: I am GETTING to a reply to all of these wonderful responses to this thread, please don't think that I am being rude to you all, it is just that there are SO MANY! lol. And they are all very detailed, so it is taking me some time to really process it all, iykwim? Hey, you don't need to reply. Just kind of think about what was said. One of the things to think about is that most of the people who responded to your post have been there themselves. ...and I'll bet a lot of people besides yourself are learning from what's been discussed in this thread. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Chris Brogden said: . The best way to handle these situations, IMO, is to let your potential clients know that no date is booked until you have received the first deposit, usually 25-50% of the total amount. No money, no booking. Period. No exceptions. If they can't pay you now, what makes you think their promises to have the money later will hold water? chris Can't agree more with this statment,Chris.When i first started my horsey digital work,people would email me wanting a picture or two.I would tell them the charges and they would agree,the cheque will be mailed today type of thing.I would then print the picture and wait and wait etc.They never sent any money. Now im out X number of $ for ink paper time etc. Now its like Ebay.Pay me and i'll do you pictures. I still get people ordering and not sending,but now i'm not out any money either.g Good luck Tanya with this.I'm sure the people who appreciate your work will eventually find you. Dave
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Hi guys - I meant to comment on this when graywolf and frank raised it. Where I am, it is standard practice to ask for money up front, and I have no problem with that. If they balk at it, I usually just tell them that due to me being such a small business, I don't have enough through-put with the labs meaning that I have to pay for the order *when* I send it off, and don't get the luxury of having accounts with them etc. I actually like this though, as it means that I never get this huge surprise bill from my lab at the end of the month. Instead, I pay as I order, and we are always square... Oh, anyways, back to the topic. My wedding contract clearly stipulates that all monies must be paid 2 weeks prior to the wedding. I require a non-refundable $350 deposit within 7 days of them booking me to reserve their day, or it will remain open to other couples. (Like mapson, I generally remind them that I am really happy for you to keep looking around at other photographers and what they can offer you, but please be aware that I already fully booked that month except for your chosen weekend, and it is highly likely that another booking could come in before you get your deposit to me, and if this is the case, and if they wish to pay their deposit immediately, then the day will become theirs. And I never do any work, book any flights or accomodation etc, until their package is completely paid for, that just goes without saying for me. Eg, the Arab guy? Well, he payed me today via Paymate, so I then went ahead and booked my plane tickets, hire car, accomodation etc, but there is no way I would've done that until I saw the $! Commercial work is different though, as most businesses in this locale work on an account basis, so they get invoiced for their job and my payment terms are listed at the bottom of the page as strictly a 7 day account, remittance can be made by... etc.. The kids clothing lady? I emailed her an invoice yesterday, the money was already in my account when I woke this morning! One thing to be said about Country people, they might be tight-wads but they are usually people of their word! tan. Chris Brogden said: . The best way to handle these situations, IMO, is to let your potential clients know that no date is booked until you have received the first deposit, usually 25-50% of the total amount. No money, no booking. Period. No exceptions. If they can't pay you now, what makes you think their promises to have the money later will hold water? chris Dave said: Can't agree more with this statment,Chris.When i first started my horsey digital work,people would email me wanting a picture or two.I would tell them the charges and they would agree,the cheque will be mailed today type of thing.I would then print the picture and wait and wait etc.They never sent any money. Now im out X number of $ for ink paper time etc. Now its like Ebay.Pay me and i'll do you pictures. I still get people ordering and not sending,but now i'm not out any money either.g Good luck Tanya with this.I'm sure the people who appreciate your work will eventually find you. Dave
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
On 6/1/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Tanya. Hi Tan, Seeing as everyone has put in there piece about your woes, I thought I would just add a few words of cheap comfort, in the length that seems appropriate for the thread: Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. And also why not have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. And then when all said and done have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. And when your mum comes to call have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Finally, have a drink, everything will be fine. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
On 6/1/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Cotty, I honestly think that if one was given enough supply of drinks they would be very dead by now. You know, having *that* many drinks in sequence is a bad idea. I know, I know, some bodies are better suited for drinks than some other bodies... But still, I wonder if you could just tell us what the integral value of these drinks would be. Then we can substitute different beverages and get the netto value of the spirit intake... That wasn't a coercion to have lots of drinks, it was lots of coercion to have just one drink! Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
And Cotty will be glad to pay for the liver transplant you will need next year . :) Cotty wrote: On 6/1/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Tanya. Hi Tan, Seeing as everyone has put in there piece about your woes, I thought I would just add a few words of cheap comfort, in the length that seems appropriate for the thread: Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. And also why not have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. And then when all said and done have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. And when your mum comes to call have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Have a drink, everything will be fine. Finally, have a drink, everything will be fine. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Cotty, I honestly think that if one was given enough supply of drinks they would be very dead by now. You know, having *that* many drinks in sequence is a bad idea. I know, I know, some bodies are better suited for drinks than some other bodies... But still, I wonder if you could just tell us what the integral value of these drinks would be. Then we can substitute different beverages and get the netto value of the spirit intake... That wasn't a coercion to have lots of drinks, it was lots of coercion to have just one drink! Har! But yes, my friend you omitted to remember that I am a teatotaller! I like a dash of water with my red cordial though... vbg tan. *who wonders how many of you northerners know what cordial is*?
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
This one time, at band camp, Tanya Mayer Photography [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like a dash of water with my red cordial though... Just a note, 'Red Cordial' is the name of the band I play in. Kind regards Kevin -- __ (_ \ _) ) | / / _ ) / _ | / ___) / _ ) | | ( (/ / ( ( | |( (___ ( (/ / |_| \) \_||_| \) \) Kevin Waterson Port Macquarie, Australia
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Col, Kevin, the drinks are on you then! lol... The red cordial thing is a source of much taunting of me by family members. My extended family are mostly very heavy drinkers of alcohol, many to the point of alcoholism, including my mother. Anyways, I have seen enough of the way that they all act (something that Jerry Springer would be proud of) to be wise enough never to touch the stuff. So now it is an in joke in my family, oh, don't let Tanya near the red cordial, we wouldn't want her to get drunk and start dancing on tables or anything now would we... They think it's hilarious, but I don't hear them laughing the next morning when I and up and about and they are singing to their toilets and holding their heads! Anyways, that is a very cool name for your band. I'll have to come and hear you play some time! lol... tan. - Original Message - From: Kevin Waterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 7:27 AM Subject: Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. This one time, at band camp, Tanya Mayer Photography [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like a dash of water with my red cordial though... Just a note, 'Red Cordial' is the name of the band I play in. Kind regards Kevin -- __ (_ \ _) ) | / / _ ) / _ | / ___) / _ ) | | ( (/ / ( ( | |( (___ ( (/ / |_| \) \_||_| \) \) Kevin Waterson Port Macquarie, Australia
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
On 6/1/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] disgorged: Har! But yes, my friend you omitted to remember that I am a teatotaller! I like a dash of water with my red cordial though... I didn't forget. Hence the lots of coercion. I was given a bottle of home-made sloe gin for Christmas by my Aussie friends here. Pity you're not coming to GFM :-D Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=| www.macads.co.uk/snaps _ Free UK Mac Ads www.macads.co.uk
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
one thing i have been wondering for a while, how many people live within about 200km of you? Herb - Original Message - From: Tanya Mayer Photography [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 8:49 AM Subject: Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. One thing to be said about Country people, they might be tight-wads but they are usually people of their word!
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/essays/vanRiper/index.htm Here's a link to this week's Washington Post Photography column by Frank Van Ripper. He's responding to another news story where Wedding photographers were called one of the top ten overpaid professions. See you later, gs
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Jeez, George, I think I might print that out and include it in my information pack that I send to my potential clients... ;-) tan. - Original Message - From: George Sinos [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/essays/vanRiper/index.htm Here's a link to this week's Washington Post Photography column by Frank Van Ripper. He's responding to another news story where Wedding photographers were called one of the top ten overpaid professions. See you later, gs
RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
The only thing it proves is that a lot of people are shopping more for best price than for best quality. It's always that way. You're going to have to get used to that. Shoot what you can and let your reputation grow. There is no substitute for word of mouth advertising. You will begin to get the couples that really want your style of shooting and will not mind paying fairly for it. Meanwhile, there will always be friends and relatives with cameras that are willing to do the job free or very cheap. Sometimes they have talent and ability, many times they don't. Let your portfolio and your website speak for you. Join your local pro photographers association and put a little networking into it. Decide where you actually fit in the pricing scheme of things and then set your rates and hold to them. It's a competitive world. Len * There's no place like 127.0.0.1
RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
-Original Message- From: Tanya Mayer Photography [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Just goes to show that I am not worth as much as you all seem to think... No, it just goes to show that some people won't be able to afford you. That's ok, other people will. Do you want to work for people who make their decision strictly on price? So, then i explain that any future work that i do for her will be charged out at either an hourly rate ($25 p/hr) Oh my god. I said please no that I won't be upset if you need to use your dad in future, and I am sure that you will be as happy with his work as you have been with mine and that it will help you to sell your products just as well, she said well, i won't be, cause he's a landscape photographer and you are the only person around here that i really trust, but i won't have a choice now will i, i'll just have to make do with him... Now fairygirl is dragging on the ground, eating dust behind her high-horse... Again, you don't want to work for price shoppers. If she thinks you're superior she should pay for your services. When you go shopping, and you're confronted with a choice, you don't assume the better product will be cheaper do you? Also bear in mind she might be a good negotiator trying to get a better price. Round three - the Arab guy. snip so now I am forced to discount an already cheap package for the removal of items that cost me nothing anyways... You were forced to? Did he hold a gun to your head? Ever heard of the word no? When you raise your prices you're going to get people who can't afford you at the new prices. That's ok. You don't want those people. You're not trying to get those people to pay more money, you're trying to attract the other people who *have* more money. Those people were ignoring you because you're too cheap. People with some money to spend are going to spend it. They're going to be suspicious of a photographer with low prices. They might look at your site and think you're good, but they're not going to call you becuase they're going to think something is wrong. Well, the pictures are nice, but why is she so cheap? She must shoot with an instamatic, or only shoots like 2 rolls, or maybe she smells really bad. tv
RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
What this really says to me is: A) You don't want clients like the first couple that mess you around and don't care about your work only your price. B) You understandably feel badly let down by the Kids Clothing lady. This is a problem in all walks of life and for all professions when you discount too much for work to begin with. The client wants to hang on to the heavy discounts. We learned this the hard way too, and it has taken many years to bring some clients up closer to our standard charging rates. We learned that it is much better to start clients on the proper rate but apply a percentage discount for a fixed period than actually quote a lower rate. It is much easier to reduce a discount than to increase a price - even though they both mean the same thing! Could you offer her a discount on 'off-season' work - is there on off peak time for your wedding etc work? Or maybe offer a deal in exchange for links/photo credits on her website/catalogue? C) You don't want to pander to clients like the Arab guy - he is another version of couple A. Explain to him that the items he wants removed are either no cost or low cost items and offer only a nominal discount if any for excluding them. Make clear to him that the bottom end packages are already priced to the wire and that there is no room for negotiation. If he cannot accept that then it does not bode well for the future contractural arrangements... Don't get carried away by the fact that he is a more 'glamorous' client due to the overseas aspect. He is actually less useful to you because you are less likely to get word of mouth business from him than from someone local. D) Ignore any negative parental advice/comments. Trust friends more than family - and what better friends than those on the list in the business? E) You need a drink - today was a bad day. There will be plenty of good days too! Hope you have a better tomorrow... Rob -Original Message- From: Tanya Mayer Photography [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 January 2004 16:45 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. Hi all, well, it is 2.12am here and I am heading for bed after a long night of invoicing, contracts, photoshopping files for ftp'ing etc. I just wanted to tell you all about my rollercoaster of a day. Just when I thought I might have been getting somewhere with this whole charging what i'm apparently worth thingy, I was quickly dragged down off my high-horse by a would-be wedding client. They had telephoned me in late November after seeing my website and an add in the paper (this was a local enquiry), and the bride to be had said omigosh, i've just seen your website and you HAVE to shoot my wedding - your images are just beautiful, our budget is this, but i don't really care what you charge, i just want you, blah, blah. So, we talked budget, deposits etc and she promised to pay her deposit within 7 days as I always require, to reserve her day etc. Well, 14 days came and went and I telephoned her and she said that they had had some unexpected bills and so could she pay on 24 December? No worries I say, I understand these things. 26th December, no money received, so I phone her again, reminding her that if anyone else wants her date before her deposit is paid, and they are flashing $$$ under my nose, I will be forced to give it to them. I said this extremely politely of course, and she responded with well, too bad, i can't afford it now until 7 Jan, and if someone else pays before then well that's just not fair because i booked it first. Ok, so in the meantime, whilst waiting for 7 Jan to role around, I send her out a really nice package of information, a very polite congratulations on your engagement and thankyou for choosing TMP letter, some sample images etc. I figure this will wet her appetite a bit and maybe make her keep her word this time. Well, today, I ring her back to check if she was going to deposit the payment tomorrow as promised and who should answer but the groom-to-be, he says to me oh, is this about the photos. well, i've decided that i don't want you as i have found this bloke with a better deal, thanks anyway... I ask him if it was the quality of my work that has let me down and he says no didn't even look at your work, it was dollar signs that i was looking at. Click! And that was the end of that conversation... Now this was, let me tell you after he was presented with my OLD price list - imagine what he would've said had I shown him my new improved, fairygirl charging for what she is apparently worth list?!!? Just goes to show that I am not worth as much as you all seem to think... So, then my day progresses, and I get a phone call from my kids clothing lady who starts the conversation by telling me just how much she loves the work that i have so far completed for her, and really
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Tanya, You know, I've stayed out of all of your threads, since I figured if you didn't catch on to the idea of charging a proper amount for your work a couple of years ago, you weren't going to catch on. But for some reason I feel compelled to give you a little wake-up call. Please understand that I am saying this because I feel you have potential; I don't feel you are a great photographer yet, but I see some real talent. Mostly right now I see you rehashing other people's ideas, but you do show an occasional flash of your own that I would like to see you pursue. If I didn't think you could do it, I wouldn't bother. Now, to get to it; Why do you want to be a photographer? Do you feel you have something to say with your camera? Do you feel you can contribute to someone else's wedding/becoming a parent/whatever by delivering quality photos in a professional manner? Or.. Do you want your mother to approve of you? Do you want people to really like you because they really like your photos? If you're in it for your ego, get out. Go back to raising your kids and find another hobby. If you want to be a professional photographer, then get serious about it. You obviously have support at home and a caring network to enable you to get time away from the family to get to your gigs. Take advantage of that, sit up straight and grow a thicker skin. Everybody loses clients. There are ways to lose clients that you haven't heard of yet. If you want to be in business, you accept this and keep looking for more clients to serve. It's a business, and it demands to be treated like one. You have been given tremendous pricing advice, many times. Listen to it, set your prices at an acceptable level, and go about your business. There are enough people out there who will pay for quality that you don't need to worry about the nickel-and-dimers in the world. Let's look at your three situations: A.) The first wedding client. They decided you're too expensive. Monte Zucker is too expensive. You're not. But if they think you are, so what? You still have to make a profit, if you want to be in business. You don't want clients who don't want you to make a profit. Think about this: At the old rate, you would have lost money, so now you're ahead by not being forced to lose that money. B.) The clothing magnate. Does she adjust the cost of her clothes for each buyer? No, she doesn't. If she wants cut-rate vendors, then she is going to get cut-rate work and her business will suffer. If she's serious about advertising her wares, she better get serious about what it costs. C.) The Wedding Negotiator. This package costs X dollars. This one costs Y dollars. This one costs Z dollars. What each offers is this: yadda yadda. Set a price list and stick to it (with some obvious exceptions; we've all done work at cost or less for friends, family and other charity cases. My brother-in--law and sister, a pretty expensive pair, shot my wedding gratis as a gift.) If the guy wants you to shoot the wedding, he pays your prices. Negotiating makes you look desperate and leaves an opening for them to kill you on reorders. Last time you were on the PDML, I told you that establishing yourself as a cheap photographer would make it hard for you to raise your prices later. Do you believe me now? I trust you will take this in the spirit intended, Doug
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Doug has some excellent advice. I speak as a small businessman. One who usually charged less than most others, in spite of my work being better in most instances. I've finally learned, way too late in the game. If you lose customers because they refuse to pay a reasonable wage, that's their loss. The first few customers you lose because they're too CHEAP to employ a _real_ photographer, well. . .you are better off. The word will get around. Your work speaks for you. How many times I've heard the words, He's more expensive than a lot of others, but. . . Prepare and show portfolios. I hope you're not the only wage earner in your family. . . Not too long from now, business will slowly increase and your reputation will precede you. Hang in there. Look critically at all your output. Work on improving style and quality. And above all, charge what you're worth! Much good luck, keith whaley * * * Doug Brewer wrote: Tanya, You know, I've stayed out of all of your threads, since I figured if you didn't catch on to the idea of charging a proper amount for your work a couple of years ago, you weren't going to catch on. But for some reason I feel compelled to give you a little wake-up call. Please understand that I am saying this because I feel you have potential; I don't feel you are a great photographer yet, but I see some real talent. Mostly right now I see you rehashing other people's ideas, but you do show an occasional flash of your own that I would like to see you pursue. If I didn't think you could do it, I wouldn't bother. Now, to get to it; Why do you want to be a photographer? Do you feel you have something to say with your camera? Do you feel you can contribute to someone else's wedding/becoming a parent/whatever by delivering quality photos in a professional manner? Or.. Do you want your mother to approve of you? Do you want people to really like you because they really like your photos? If you're in it for your ego, get out. Go back to raising your kids and find another hobby. If you want to be a professional photographer, then get serious about it. You obviously have support at home and a caring network to enable you to get time away from the family to get to your gigs. Take advantage of that, sit up straight and grow a thicker skin. Everybody loses clients. There are ways to lose clients that you haven't heard of yet. If you want to be in business, you accept this and keep looking for more clients to serve. It's a business, and it demands to be treated like one. You have been given tremendous pricing advice, many times. Listen to it, set your prices at an acceptable level, and go about your business. There are enough people out there who will pay for quality that you don't need to worry about the nickel-and-dimers in the world. Let's look at your three situations: A.) The first wedding client. They decided you're too expensive. Monte Zucker is too expensive. You're not. But if they think you are, so what? You still have to make a profit, if you want to be in business. You don't want clients who don't want you to make a profit. Think about this: At the old rate, you would have lost money, so now you're ahead by not being forced to lose that money. B.) The clothing magnate. Does she adjust the cost of her clothes for each buyer? No, she doesn't. If she wants cut-rate vendors, then she is going to get cut-rate work and her business will suffer. If she's serious about advertising her wares, she better get serious about what it costs. C.) The Wedding Negotiator. This package costs X dollars. This one costs Y dollars. This one costs Z dollars. What each offers is this: yadda yadda. Set a price list and stick to it (with some obvious exceptions; we've all done work at cost or less for friends, family and other charity cases. My brother-in--law and sister, a pretty expensive pair, shot my wedding gratis as a gift.) If the guy wants you to shoot the wedding, he pays your prices. Negotiating makes you look desperate and leaves an opening for them to kill you on reorders. Last time you were on the PDML, I told you that establishing yourself as a cheap photographer would make it hard for you to raise your prices later. Do you believe me now? I trust you will take this in the spirit intended, Doug
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
To the delight of all Tanya Mayer Photography [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote this: Hi Tan, bad day hunh? You will get those, its part of life. The trick is to make the good ones out-weigh the bad ones :) Just goes to show that I am not worth as much as you all seem to think... I hate to play the nasty here, but, get over it! Despite over-whelming evidence to the contrary, you believe your work to be inferior. I too battle with doubts about my abilities. I have never mentioned this before to anyone, but, at a wedding, I double exposed a whole role of film because of this habit I had of leaving the film 'tongue' out so I did'nt have to dig it out and was easier to to process. Such a stupid and basic error. It still haunts me. Alot of my work is in a little studio next to a modelling agency. I labour very hard to produce good results. These models rely on the photo's I take to move on in their careers. I am alway nervous. Now, for a little tale. Some months ago, a 27 year old girl came to the modelling agency seeking work. Unemployed for most of her life due to her lack of confidence in herself. She was not an attractive girl by catwalk standards and could barely walk without stumbling. She was totally awkward and clumsy with a morose personality. Her portfolio was a scrap book of the most horrid pics I had seen in some time. These had been done by professionals. The were over/under exposed, the poses unflattering, the composition non-existant. I say horrid because some of the photos looked almost Bela Lugosi in nature. The make-up looked like it had been applied by Picasso on one of his off days. The girls in the modelling agency did a make over and hair for her, then put her in a very flattering dress, and presented her for photographing. The transformation was amazing. So, I took some shots, about 100, and came up with 4 nice ones that I was happy with. When printed we had 4 shots of a beautiful woman, not the awkward girl that had come in off the street. She was ecstatic with the results. It was as though we had released some inner princess and captured it for the world to see. She never did go on with modelling, but she now works for a major department store as sales manager and she is happy. She drops by the studio every now and then for a chat and tells us how greatful she was to have had that day where she was a queen. End of tale... I really don't think you could put a price on her change in life that stemmed from that day. I am far from a great photographer, I know my limitations but I am always striving to push at those to extend myself as a photographer. Sure I have self doubts and of course I make mistakes. Then I look back on some of the successes, and I just feel a little better, and get on with what I know. I truely empathize with your self doubts. But it is those doubts that are your greatest strength, it is those doubts that have you put in the extra effort and make the high quality photo's that you make. In every photo you take, be it a clothing item or a landscape, there is a bit of you in all of them. This is what makes them so good. Hope I have not prattled on too much Best wishes Kevin -- __ (_ \ _) ) | / / _ ) / _ | / ___) / _ ) | | ( (/ / ( ( | |( (___ ( (/ / |_| \) \_||_| \) \) Kevin Waterson Port Macquarie, Australia
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Tanya I feel for you - they might at least have done you on different days! Don't get too depressed, it happens to all of us in business for ourselves some time, and at least they didn't let you do the work first and then refuse to pay, as has happened a couple of times to me (but only in twice in 15 years!). Take heart from the fact that, to many people, it is only the $$'s that matter, they don't give a rat's ass about the quality, and they would never be a good reference anyway: they'd probably say Oh yes, the snaps were Ok, but she charged like a wounded bull. Despite all the advice you have received about raising your prices, I seem to recall you based your charges on cost +$500 per day: that's a good rate by Australian standards, but you _must_ ensure you charge for all the time you spend. Not just the day itself, but all the preparation, travelling, processing, printing etc. Let nothing go for free! I'd stay where you are for now, but try to minimise and spread your outlays by leasing, etc, so that the cash flow works better. I would advise that you never discuss an increase in charges in the way you appear to have done: just, next time the client asks for a quote, include the higher costs without highlighting them. That way, you can work up to a higher level without causing angst. My own experience is that, if the client thinks they can trust you to do the right thing, they'll stay with you. I would try never to quote an hourly rate, quote on a per job basis, but use an hourly rate yourself in working out your estimate. HTH John Coyle Brisbane, Australia - Original Message - From: Tanya Mayer Photography [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 2:44 AM Subject: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. Hi all, well, it is 2.12am here and I am heading for bed after a long night of invoicing, contracts, photoshopping files for ftp'ing etc. I just wanted to tell you all about my rollercoaster of a day. Just when I thought I might have been getting somewhere with this whole charging what i'm apparently worth thingy, I was quickly dragged down off my high-horse by a would-be wedding client. They had telephoned me in late November after seeing my website and an add in the paper (this was a local enquiry), and the bride to be had said omigosh, i've just seen your website and you HAVE to shoot my wedding - your images are just beautiful, our budget is this, but i don't really care what you charge, i just want you, blah, blah. So, we talked budget, deposits etc and she promised to pay her deposit within 7 days as I always require, to reserve her day etc. Well, 14 days came and went and I telephoned her and she said that they had had some unexpected bills and so could she pay on 24 December? No worries I say, I understand these things. 26th December, no money received, so I phone her again, reminding her that if anyone else wants her date before her deposit is paid, and they are flashing $$$ under my nose, I will be forced to give it to them. I said this extremely politely of course, and she responded with well, too bad, i can't afford it now until 7 Jan, and if someone else pays before then well that's just not fair because i booked it first. Ok, so in the meantime, whilst waiting for 7 Jan to role around, I send her out a really nice package of information, a very polite congratulations on your engagement and thankyou for choosing TMP letter, some sample images etc. I figure this will wet her appetite a bit and maybe make her keep her word this time. Well, today, I ring her back to check if she was going to deposit the payment tomorrow as promised and who should answer but the groom-to-be, he says to me oh, is this about the photos. well, i've decided that i don't want you as i have found this bloke with a better deal, thanks anyway... I ask him if it was the quality of my work that has let me down and he says no didn't even look at your work, it was dollar signs that i was looking at. Click! And that was the end of that conversation... Now this was, let me tell you after he was presented with my OLD price list - imagine what he would've said had I shown him my new improved, fairygirl charging for what she is apparently worth list?!!? Just goes to show that I am not worth as much as you all seem to think... So, then my day progresses, and I get a phone call from my kids clothing lady who starts the conversation by telling me just how much she loves the work that i have so far completed for her, and really appreciates all of the extras I have given her, and how she has always loved my stuff etc, and that she has paid me by depositing the funds into my account. Ok, so far, so good... then i go on to explain about how i am re-assessing my rates and how i need to start making money rather than just covering costs as i will never be a true professional photographer until i do (her and i have become quite
RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Tanya, I've read everything that's been posted, plus (or course) your 'histoire triste'. I don't want to repeat what's been said so far, but I'll likely cover a few points that have been mentioned: First of all, my commisserations to you. It was a tough day. Hopefully you'll wake up tomorrow (or today), read all the positive messages here, and bound out of the house with your head held high, ready to take on the world! Also, don't forget, now that you've determined that you will charge what you're worth, you are now in a transitional stage. So, especially for past, or ongoing clients like the clothing lady, they may have some difficulty accepting that they can't have high quality at rock bottom prices. She's a businessperson, after all, and I'm sure that she just loved the little arrangement she had with you. It seems that you thought of her as almost a friend. She wasn't. She was a business associate. Like you, she has her bottom line. If she comes to her senses, she'll realize that in the long run, she's better off having her publicity shots done well. If she doesn't, well, you shouldn't bankroll her. Now (and I'm ~not~ a silver lining guy; see my sig below g), some good has come of the clothing thing. You did some work for her that you can put in your portfolio. You can put her company's name in your Curriculum Vitae. If she does make it big, it'll look good on you, even if you don't do another thing for her. And, it may be that for old customers some sort of sliding increase in rates may be feasible. Did you discuss that with her? As far as the other two: well, no sour grapes or anything, but I think they'd have been horrible clients to work for, if they're like this before the job. Your first hint with the no deposit lady should have been when she didn't come up with the deposit when she first promised to. You were right to tell her that the booking wasn't finalized until her deposit, and she was in danger of being bumped. You should have stuck to your guns and said, No booking until I see Green (politely, of course). That way, you have no worries. They bring cash, you do work. End of story. I know from my past business life, people come up with all sorts of promises. They often lie. Sad, but true. In business, you must always be cynical. Now, a little parable, taken from my true and actual past: I used to be a lawyer. I don't like to broadcast it, but it's true. I did family and criminal law. I did a lot of Legal Aid work. They paid me about $60 an hour (barely covering my overhead). I had many clients who didn't qualify for legal aid, but were still poor. I felt sorry for them, and told them I'd charge them what Legal Aid would have paid me for their case (huge mistake!). I had some clients of means, who paid my proper hourly rate of about $250 an hour. Know who my worst clients were, by far? Not the Legal Aid clients, because, I suspect, they felt some responsibility to their benefactor not to run up the bill. It wasn't my clients of means, because by and large, they knew the value of a dollar, and they didn't want to give me money for frivolous reasons. Yup, it was the $60/hr. clients. They were the most demanding, calling me at home at all hours for no reason at all, and they complained the longest and loudest if they didn't get what they perceived to be a satisfactory result. Plus, I got stiffed by them more than once. By and large, people who pay good money expect good work. They are paying professional fees, so they treat you like a professional. People who pay discount store prices treat you like crap, still expect top quality (even if they don't know what that is), and pick pick pick at everything. Stay away from them. Anyone who tries to bargain you down on price will give you problems down the road. Consider it a blessing that they fired you when they did! Really. cheers, frank The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer From: Tanya Mayer Photography [EMAIL PROTECTED] [suffice to say, she had a bad day - 'nuff said] _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcommpgmarket=en-caRU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 02:44:41 +1000, you wrote: Hi all, well, it is 2.12am here and I am heading for bed after a long night of invoicing, contracts, photoshopping files for ftp'ing etc. I just wanted to tell you all about my rollercoaster of a day. Just when I thought I might have been getting somewhere with this whole charging what i'm apparently worth thingy, I was quickly dragged down off my high-horse by a would-be wedding client. They had telephoned me in late November after seeing my website and an add in the paper (this was a local enquiry), and the bride to be had said omigosh, i've just seen your website and you HAVE to shoot my wedding - your images are just beautiful, our budget is this, but i don't really care what you charge, i just want you, blah, blah. So, we talked budget, deposits etc and she promised to pay her deposit within 7 days as I always require, to reserve her day etc. Well, 14 days came and went and I telephoned her and she said that they had had some unexpected bills and so could she pay on 24 December? No worries I say, I understand these things. 26th December, no money received, so I phone her again, reminding her that if anyone else wants her date before her deposit is paid, and they are flashing $$$ under my nose, I will be forced to give it to them. I said this extremely politely of course, and she responded with well, too bad, i can't afford it now until 7 Jan, and if someone else pays before then well that's just not fair because i booked it first. Ok, so in the meantime, whilst waiting for 7 Jan to role around, I send her out a really nice package of information, a very polite congratulations on your engagement and thankyou for choosing TMP letter, some sample images etc. I figure this will wet her appetite a bit and maybe make her keep her word this time. Well, today, I ring her back to check if she was going to deposit the payment tomorrow as promised and who should answer but the groom-to-be, he says to me oh, is this about the photos. well, i've decided that i don't want you as i have found this bloke with a better deal, thanks anyway... I ask him if it was the quality of my work that has let me down and he says no didn't even look at your work, it was dollar signs that i was looking at. Click! And that was the end of that conversation... Now this was, let me tell you after he was presented with my OLD price list - imagine what he would've said had I shown him my new improved, fairygirl charging for what she is apparently worth list?!!? Just goes to show that I am not worth as much as you all seem to think... So, then my day progresses, and I get a phone call from my kids clothing lady who starts the conversation by telling me just how much she loves the work that i have so far completed for her, and really appreciates all of the extras I have given her, and how she has always loved my stuff etc, and that she has paid me by depositing the funds into my account. Ok, so far, so good... then i go on to explain about how i am re-assessing my rates and how i need to start making money rather than just covering costs as i will never be a true professional photographer until i do (her and i have become quite friendly during all of this and discuss business/money issues all the time as she is just starting out too). she agrees with everything that i say, even adding comments such as well, there is no use being in business if you aren't able to pay yourself a wage etc. So, then i explain that any future work that i do for her will be charged out at either an hourly rate ($25 p/hr) rather than a flat quote, OR on a by image basis, whereby she pays $100 per image that she decides to use on her website/catalogue etc. Suddenly, her tone completely changes and she says that she could never afford that and that she would have to fly her dad (a landscape photographer) up here for any future work. She said the only reason that she didn't get him up here for this job was because she loved my work so much and it is very different from the sort of stuff that he does... I said, I totally understand, but I can't keep working so many hours and palming my kids off to people for no reason, and I thought that of all people she would appreciate that as we have just completed a business management course and in the classes she was SUCH a stickler for working out the financial side of things. I said please no that I won't be upset if you need to use your dad in future, and I am sure that you will be as happy with his work as you have been with mine and that it will help you to sell your products just as well, she said well, i won't be, cause he's a landscape photographer and you are the only person around here that i really trust, but i won't have a choice now will i, i'll just have to make do with him... Now fairygirl is dragging on the ground, eating dust behind her high-horse... Round three - the Arab guy. Emails me after seeing my packages, and says yep, we want you
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
that was the reasoning behind why a friend of mine asked me to be backup photographer for her wedding, although i feel i am a rotten people photographer. her uncle, who used to do weddings part time, was who did the most important photos. she reasoned that having someone who knew something about composition and photography to catch informal slightly more than snapshots was important and that was what i did. she wasn't expecting shots to display like paintings on a wall, she wanted decent shots that would bring back memories. my brother asked me to take some photos at his wedding too, for much the same reasons. he paid for a good pro photographer for the formal shots and the wedding ceremony. of course, my mother could only imagine posed formal shots as the only kind that ought to be taken. luckily, she had no say in the matter. i still think i am a rotten wedding photographer and i am not going to let any of you offer a second opinion. Herb... - Original Message - From: Len Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:12 PM Subject: RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump. The only thing it proves is that a lot of people are shopping more for best price than for best quality. It's always that way. You're going to have to get used to that. Shoot what you can and let your reputation grow. There is no substitute for word of mouth advertising. You will begin to get the couples that really want your style of shooting and will not mind paying fairly for it. Meanwhile, there will always be friends and relatives with cameras that are willing to do the job free or very cheap. Sometimes they have talent and ability, many times they don't. Let your portfolio and your website speak for you.
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
I wrote a long reply, but before I sent it I read all the others. They are good advice, especially Frank Theriault's. So I decided that I did not need to send a another long one, but just mention somethings to think about. If you are trying to run a business you need customers. The thing is if someone is not willing to pay for what they get they are not customers, they are beggars. Worse they are usually demanding beggars. What would your clothing woman say to you if you said, I can't afford your children s clothing. I really like them though. So, if you will let me have them for about 1/2 of what they cost you, I will buy a bunch of them from you. If you won't sell them to me for that, I have a sewing machine and will make them myself. Well, that is essentially what she said to you. Think about it. -- PS: That does not mean you can not make some kind of deal with her, after all you are both starting out and things are tight. An exchange of goods and services based upon fair prices can work. (You do have three children that need cloths, right?) The thing about being in business, is you have to keep your work from being devalued. That does not mean you can not work something out, it only means you have to get fair value for fair value. Sometimes I do charity work. I do not do it for free. I invoice it for my regular rates, then credit their account with a donation equal to the invoice. I mean, right there on the invoice they can see I gave them $300, or whatever. That is not the same thing a working for free. My work is not devalued even though I am not really in business anymore. Besides it is tax deductible when I do it that way. -- Tanya Mayer Photography wrote: Hi all, well, it is 2.12am here and I am heading for bed after a long night of invoicing, contracts, photoshopping files for ftp'ing etc. I just wanted to tell you all about my rollercoaster of a day. -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of Frank's reply was excellent but this really stood out for me: I'm sure that she just loved the little arrangement she had with you. It seems that you thought of her as almost a friend. She wasn't. She was a business associate. mark roberts: wrote: You have no idea how many times people try to rip off others (not just photographers) by using this technique (consciously or unconsciously). I always had an *idea* of what was going on but never really *got* it until Frank put it so succinctly. This is an excellent observation and one that is completely true in this instance, more fool me for thinking it, but I really had begun to think of her as a friend and this is why I initially hesitated so much in charging her the extra for the next job. I am GETTING to a reply to all of these wonderful responses to this thread, please don't think that I am being rude to you all, it is just that there are SO MANY! lol. And they are all very detailed, so it is taking me some time to really process it all, iykwim? tan. (who just got a really nice phone call from Leon and now feels much happier about things!)
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Lots of John's comments are best applicable to corporate work, not consumer sales. But his final comments below are very true. Just keep selling... Regards, Bob S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the way around the price shoppers may be to sell, sell sell... Sell yourself, sell your portfolio, sell the things you do that add value and create customer confidence. And don't sweat the sales you don't get. That's just one no that's now out of the way, on your way to a nice yes.
Re: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Hey, you don't need to reply. Just kind of think about what was said. One of the things to think about is that most of the people who responded to your post have been there themselves. We know it is a tough place to be, but if you want to turn your photography into a viable business it is a process you will have to go through. Be nice, but be tough. -- Tanya Mayer Photography wrote: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of Frank's reply was excellent but this really stood out for me: I'm sure that she just loved the little arrangement she had with you. It seems that you thought of her as almost a friend. She wasn't. She was a business associate. mark roberts: wrote: You have no idea how many times people try to rip off others (not just photographers) by using this technique (consciously or unconsciously). I always had an *idea* of what was going on but never really *got* it until Frank put it so succinctly. This is an excellent observation and one that is completely true in this instance, more fool me for thinking it, but I really had begun to think of her as a friend and this is why I initially hesitated so much in charging her the extra for the next job. I am GETTING to a reply to all of these wonderful responses to this thread, please don't think that I am being rude to you all, it is just that there are SO MANY! lol. And they are all very detailed, so it is taking me some time to really process it all, iykwim? tan. (who just got a really nice phone call from Leon and now feels much happier about things!) -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com You might as well accept people as they are, you are not going to be able to change them anyway.
RE: Down off my high-horse... with a thump.
Wow! So much has already been said that is right on the mark that I almost hesitate to reply, but I am in a very similar situation right now so I have decided to pass on a few of my own observations. Some time ago I got a call from a desperate mother of the bride who needed a photographer for a wedding only one week away. She got my name from a wedding decorator I have worked with before. She cried poor, stating that their budget for the wedding was slim and most had already been spent. Being an old softy, I gave her a discount. I followed her instructions to the house and found myself standing in front of a million dollar home in an exclusive neighborhood. The unfinished game room was almost as big as my house. Sometimes people want to negotiate a discount just to see if they can get you for cheaper, even if they could have afforded your original price to begin with. I was passing a popular wedding spot in my town just this past summer and I spotted a young couple getting what appeared to be an engagement photo taken. The photographer set up his tripod and placed a small point and shoot camera on it. He placed the couple in open sunlight with the sun just a few degrees off of high noon and the couple at a 45 degree angle to the sun. Am I the cheapest photographer in town? No. Do I want to compete on pricing with a point and shoot portrait taken in direct sunlight? Absofreakin'lutely not. If some people don't know the difference I guess I will lose a few. Oh, well. I don't know if any of us can make you feel better, but maybe we can help you feel that you are not alone. David Madsen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.davidmadsen.com
