subject:"RE\: OT finally a chance to get even with those f\*\*\*ers at, PayPal"


On 2011-03-18 06:00 , Steven Desjardins wrote:

To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much.  It's always
embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
little information can explain so much.


for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks will 
improve us a bit



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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread John Francis

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 05:39:02PM -0600, steve harley wrote:
> On 2011-03-18 06:00 , Steven Desjardins wrote:
> >To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much.  It's always
> >embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
> >little information can explain so much.
> 
> for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks
> will improve us a bit

While I am generally pro-Wikileaks, I wouldn't want that to be
taken as implying general support for Julian Assange, who would
appear to be a particularly unpleasant kind of weasel.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 2011-03-18 19:09 , John Francis wrote:

While I am generally pro-Wikileaks, I wouldn't want that to be
taken as implying general support for Julian Assange, who would
appear to be a particularly unpleasant kind of weasel.


sometimes it takes a weasel to ferret one out

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.

Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes -- in 
government as well. Government officials have to be able to correspond in 
confidence at times. Strategies to defend against terrorism have to remain 
confidential. And don't forget that wikileaks released the names of Afthan 
citizens who had tried to help defeat the Taliban, putting them in grave 
danger. Even Assange's cohorts said that action was despicable.

Earlier, someone said it's only the U.S. that has a problem with wikileaks . 
That's not at all true. Almost all European nations have spoken out against the 
groups actions. There are government officials both in the U.S. and other 
countries who have and will violate the people's trust. But when exposing the 
few puts the many at risk, it's a bad deal. 

If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led the 
government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much of the 
classified information that was released will spend most of his life in jail. 
That will undoubtedly prove to be a deterrent to others. And access to 
classified information will undoubtedly be more restricted than it has been. 

Paul

Paul
On Mar 18, 2011, at 9:09 PM, John Francis wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 05:39:02PM -0600, steve harley wrote:
>> On 2011-03-18 06:00 , Steven Desjardins wrote:
>>> To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much.  It's always
>>> embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
>>> little information can explain so much.
>> 
>> for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks
>> will improve us a bit
> 
> While I am generally pro-Wikileaks, I wouldn't want that to be
> taken as implying general support for Julian Assange, who would
> appear to be a particularly unpleasant kind of weasel.
> 
> 
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread David Parsons

Jail is not a deterrent for those that are committed to a cause.
People are willing to die for causes that they believe in.

The founding fathers of the US literally risked their necks for the
cause that they believed in.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led the 
> government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much of the 
> classified information that was released will spend most of his life in jail. 
> That will undoubtedly prove to be a deterrent to others. And access to 
> classified information will undoubtedly be more restricted than it has been.
>
> Paul
>
> Paul
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 9:09 PM, John Francis wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 05:39:02PM -0600, steve harley wrote:
>>> On 2011-03-18 06:00 , Steven Desjardins wrote:
 To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much.  It's always
 embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
 little information can explain so much.
>>>
>>> for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks
>>> will improve us a bit
>>
>> While I am generally pro-Wikileaks, I wouldn't want that to be
>> taken as implying general support for Julian Assange, who would
>> appear to be a particularly unpleasant kind of weasel.
>>
>>
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread eckinator

2011/3/19 Paul Stenquist :
>
> I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.

I was a conservative voter much of my adult life. I stopped when I
realized how much more corrupt the moderate right is than the moderate
left and how much more they are willing to bend the law to the
breaking point if there is anything to be gained from it. I only vote
for the moderate left for lack of a political home where my opinions
lie. I find the constant left-bashing of dissenters to be rather
simplistic.

> Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes -- in 
> government as well. Government officials have to be able to correspond in 
> confidence at times.

sure. no denying that. some things that were said in private had
better not been thought though

> Strategies to defend against terrorism have to remain confidential.

definitely. torture can't happen in public in the land of the free

> And don't forget that wikileaks released the names of Afthan citizens who had 
> tried to help defeat the Taliban, putting them in grave danger. Even 
> Assange's cohorts said that action was despicable.

and so do I

> Earlier, someone said it's only the U.S. that has a problem with wikileaks . 
> That's not at all true. Almost all European nations have spoken out against 
> the groups actions.

the governments of these nations. maybe not the people. but I have no
idea about numbers.

> There are government officials both in the U.S. and other countries who have 
> and will violate the people's trust. But when exposing the few puts the many 
> at risk, it's a bad deal.

the few are rather too many. wikileaks wouldn't be doing this if they
weren't genuinely fed up. there is nothing to be gained from it but
static

> If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led the 
> government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much of the 
> classified information that was released will spend most of his life in jail. 
> That will undoubtedly prove to be a deterrent to others. And access to 
> classified information will undoubtedly be more restricted than it has been.

I rather think the good will come from governments realizing the power
of free media. look to North Africa. the internet enabled those
revolutions.

the govts of the so called free world have every reason to fear
freedom of information. they have enough to hide to stumble over.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On Mar 18, 2011, at 9:54 PM, David Parsons wrote:

> Jail is not a deterrent for those that are committed to a cause.
> People are willing to die for causes that they believe in.

I doubt that the soldier who supplied the data was seriously committed to any 
cause. From what I've read, seriously disturbed sounds much more likely. And 
what cause might he be devoted to? Chaos? Whatever his motive, he probably 
thought he would get away with it. I doubt that he meant to throw his life 
away. He will undoubtedly serve as an example. 

> 
> The founding fathers of the US literally risked their necks for the
> cause that they believed in.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Paul Stenquist  
> wrote:
>> If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led the 
>> government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much of the 
>> classified information that was released will spend most of his life in 
>> jail. That will undoubtedly prove to be a deterrent to others. And access to 
>> classified information will undoubtedly be more restricted than it has been.
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> Paul
>> On Mar 18, 2011, at 9:09 PM, John Francis wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 05:39:02PM -0600, steve harley wrote:
 On 2011-03-18 06:00 , Steven Desjardins wrote:
> To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much.  It's always
> embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
> little information can explain so much.
 
 for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks
 will improve us a bit
>>> 
>>> While I am generally pro-Wikileaks, I wouldn't want that to be
>>> taken as implying general support for Julian Assange, who would
>>> appear to be a particularly unpleasant kind of weasel.
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2011-03-18 19:39, steve harley wrote:


for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks will
improve us a bit


Wikileaks is a necessary evil.  It could be a lot less necessary if our 
government weren't convinced they're better, smarter people than the 
ones that elected them.  I could be a lot less evil, but for the same 
reason.  But it would still be necessary.  Centralization of political 
power is one of, if not the, greatest threat to individual freedom.


"They came for the Jews, but I wasn't Jewish ..."

And that's from a guy that's about three kilometers to the right of 
Genghis Khan, politically.  Actually, that's not true.  I'm more of a 
"constrained anarchist".  Or something.  I'm easily compartmentalized, 
but only if you don't really know me very well.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread David Parsons

Most definitely he will used as an example, but it's hard to say what
his motivations are when he's been in holding since the event.  And
IMO, once they decide to try him for treason, he's as good as dead
anyway.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Paul Stenquist
 wrote:
>
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 9:54 PM, David Parsons wrote:
>
>> Jail is not a deterrent for those that are committed to a cause.
>> People are willing to die for causes that they believe in.
>
> I doubt that the soldier who supplied the data was seriously committed to any 
> cause. From what I've read, seriously disturbed sounds much more likely. And 
> what cause might he be devoted to? Chaos? Whatever his motive, he probably 
> thought he would get away with it. I doubt that he meant to throw his life 
> away. He will undoubtedly serve as an example.
>
>>
>> The founding fathers of the US literally risked their necks for the
>> cause that they believed in.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Paul Stenquist  
>> wrote:
>>> If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led 
>>> the government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much 
>>> of the classified information that was released will spend most of his life 
>>> in jail. That will undoubtedly prove to be a deterrent to others. And 
>>> access to classified information will undoubtedly be more restricted than 
>>> it has been.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> On Mar 18, 2011, at 9:09 PM, John Francis wrote:
>>>
 On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 05:39:02PM -0600, steve harley wrote:
> On 2011-03-18 06:00 , Steven Desjardins wrote:
>> To be honest, I'm not sure it hurt us all that much.  It's always
>> embarrassing when what you actually think of someone slips out, but a
>> little information can explain so much.
>
> for better or worse, i'm also a US citizen, and i think wikileaks
> will improve us a bit

 While I am generally pro-Wikileaks, I wouldn't want that to be
 taken as implying general support for Julian Assange, who would
 appear to be a particularly unpleasant kind of weasel.


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 PDML@pdml.net
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 follow the directions.
>>>
>>>
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2011-03-18 21:44, Paul Stenquist wrote:


Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings,
and -- yes -- in government as well. Government officials
have to be able to correspond in confidence at times.


You are right.  But each of us individually has to have the same ability 
to communicate in confidence as the government.  My problem is that the 
government works (generally) towards hiding more and more of their 
activities (ACTA, for example), while simultaneously working to rip the 
veil from every aspect of the voters being able to work in the same 
level of confidence (George Hotz injunctions and discovery).


Government should be transparent, not the silly natterings I send to my 
girlfriend.  As usual, they've completely gotten it upside down.  And 
it's either going to change, or we're all going to be the worse for it.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2011-03-18 21:54, David Parsons wrote:


The founding fathers of the US literally risked their necks for the
cause that they believed in.


And the part that a lot of people miss is that, homicide bombers do what 
they do, from their viewpoint, for exactly the same reason that the US's 
Founding Fathers did what they did.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 2011-03-18 19:44 , Paul Stenquist wrote:

I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.

Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes -- in 
government as well. Government officials have to be able to correspond in 
confidence at times. Strategies to defend against terrorism have to remain 
confidential. And don't forget that wikileaks released the names of Afthan 
citizens who had tried to help defeat the Taliban, putting them in grave 
danger. Even Assange's cohorts said that action was despicable.

Earlier, someone said it's only the U.S. that has a problem with wikileaks . 
That's not at all true. Almost all European nations have spoken out against the 
groups actions. There are government officials both in the U.S. and other 
countries who have and will violate the people's trust. But when exposing the 
few puts the many at risk, it's a bad deal.


all governments have to drink the kool-aid; i suspect what was being 
expressed was that European public opinion has a significantly different 
statistical spread than US opinion


regarding putting people at risk, the US government and others have been 
shown to be willing to exploit secrecy for things that put people at 
risk: torture, killing, starting wars, run-of-the-mill exploitation ...


so it seems to be both a question of gradation and trade-offs; exposure 
of secrets is (thankfully) far from the exclusive domain of wikileaks



If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led the 
government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much of the 
classified information that was released will spend most of his life in jail.


we can guess the outcome, but at the moment he's undergoing pre-trial 
torture, so he may lose the capability of rationally describing his actions


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:20 PM, steve harley wrote:

> On 2011-03-18 19:44 , Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.
>> 
>> Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes -- 
>> in government as well. Government officials have to be able to correspond in 
>> confidence at times. Strategies to defend against terrorism have to remain 
>> confidential. And don't forget that wikileaks released the names of Afthan 
>> citizens who had tried to help defeat the Taliban, putting them in grave 
>> danger. Even Assange's cohorts said that action was despicable.
>> 
>> Earlier, someone said it's only the U.S. that has a problem with wikileaks . 
>> That's not at all true. Almost all European nations have spoken out against 
>> the groups actions. There are government officials both in the U.S. and 
>> other countries who have and will violate the people's trust. But when 
>> exposing the few puts the many at risk, it's a bad deal.
> 
> all governments have to drink the kool-aid; i suspect what was being 
> expressed was that European public opinion has a significantly different 
> statistical spread than US opinion
> 
> regarding putting people at risk, the US government and others have been 
> shown to be willing to exploit secrecy for things that put people at risk: 
> torture, killing, starting wars, run-of-the-mill exploitation ...
> 
> so it seems to be both a question of gradation and trade-offs; exposure of 
> secrets is (thankfully) far from the exclusive domain of wikileaks
> 
>> If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led the 
>> government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much of the 
>> classified information that was released will spend most of his life in jail.
> 
> we can guess the outcome, but at the moment he's undergoing pre-trial 
> torture, so he may lose the capability of rationally describing his actions

He's not being tortured. They took his clothes away and gave him a velcro 
sheath for night use, because he was considered a suicide risk. 

He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal democrat 
president is torturing a U.S. citizen? 

> 
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread David Parsons

Not personally, but with his tacit or explicit support, yes.
Depriving a prisoner of clothing is not standard procedure in in any
US jail or prison.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Paul Stenquist
 wrote:

> He's not being tortured. They took his clothes away and gave him a velcro 
> sheath for night use, because he was considered a suicide risk.
>
> He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal democrat 
> president is torturing a U.S. citizen?
>
>>
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread Tim Bray

Some of what Wikileaks is doing is open to question on ethical
grounds.  On the other hand, many of the people screaming about it
are, arguably, war criminals.  What Bradley Manning is alleged to have
done is ethically and legally questionable.  What is being done to him
is nauseatingly abusive.  The Obama administration is eager to
prosecute whistle-blowers while flatly refusing to prosecute those who
ordered and subsequently condoned torture.  Maybe I'm old-fashioned
but that bothers me.

That's the tl;dr version.  For more exposition, see
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/12/05/Wikileaks and
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058340,00.html and
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51197.html

-T

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
>
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:20 PM, steve harley wrote:
>
>> On 2011-03-18 19:44 , Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>> I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.
>>>
>>> Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes -- 
>>> in government as well. Government officials have to be able to correspond 
>>> in confidence at times. Strategies to defend against terrorism have to 
>>> remain confidential. And don't forget that wikileaks released the names of 
>>> Afthan citizens who had tried to help defeat the Taliban, putting them in 
>>> grave danger. Even Assange's cohorts said that action was despicable.
>>>
>>> Earlier, someone said it's only the U.S. that has a problem with wikileaks 
>>> . That's not at all true. Almost all European nations have spoken out 
>>> against the groups actions. There are government officials both in the U.S. 
>>> and other countries who have and will violate the people's trust. But when 
>>> exposing the few puts the many at risk, it's a bad deal.
>>
>> all governments have to drink the kool-aid; i suspect what was being 
>> expressed was that European public opinion has a significantly different 
>> statistical spread than US opinion
>>
>> regarding putting people at risk, the US government and others have been 
>> shown to be willing to exploit secrecy for things that put people at risk: 
>> torture, killing, starting wars, run-of-the-mill exploitation ...
>>
>> so it seems to be both a question of gradation and trade-offs; exposure of 
>> secrets is (thankfully) far from the exclusive domain of wikileaks
>>
>>> If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led 
>>> the government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much 
>>> of the classified information that was released will spend most of his life 
>>> in jail.
>>
>> we can guess the outcome, but at the moment he's undergoing pre-trial 
>> torture, so he may lose the capability of rationally describing his actions
>
> He's not being tortured. They took his clothes away and gave him a velcro 
> sheath for night use, because he was considered a suicide risk.
>
> He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal democrat 
> president is torturing a U.S. citizen?
>
>>
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Tim Bray wrote:

> Some of what Wikileaks is doing is open to question on ethical
> grounds.  On the other hand, many of the people screaming about it
> are, arguably, war criminals.

I know of no convicted or indicted war criminals who have commented on 
wikileaks. The left bandies the "war criminal" tag about rather recklessly. 

>  What Bradley Manning is alleged to have
> done is ethically and legally questionable.  What is being done to him
> is nauseatingly abusive.

He's incarcerated. That's not abusive. It's necessary. There is absolutely no 
evidence that he has been treated poorly. 


>  The Obama administration is eager to
> prosecute whistle-blowers while flatly refusing to prosecute those who
> ordered and subsequently condoned torture.  

Manning isn't a whistle blower. He's a member of the United States armed forces 
who turned over classified documents. That's treason, not whistle blowing. If 
you take the oath, you do your duty.

> Maybe I'm old-fashioned
> but that bothers me.

You're not old fashioned.

> 
> That's the tl;dr version.  For more exposition, see
> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/12/05/Wikileaks and
> http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058340,00.html and
> http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51197.html
> 
> -T
> 
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Paul Stenquist  
> wrote:
>> 
>> On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:20 PM, steve harley wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2011-03-18 19:44 , Paul Stenquist wrote:
 I find the left's enthusiasm for wikileaks to be rather simplistic.
 
 Privacy is necessary in personal life, in business dealings, and -- yes -- 
 in government as well. Government officials have to be able to correspond 
 in confidence at times. Strategies to defend against terrorism have to 
 remain confidential. And don't forget that wikileaks released the names of 
 Afthan citizens who had tried to help defeat the Taliban, putting them in 
 grave danger. Even Assange's cohorts said that action was despicable.
 
 Earlier, someone said it's only the U.S. that has a problem with wikileaks 
 . That's not at all true. Almost all European nations have spoken out 
 against the groups actions. There are government officials both in the 
 U.S. and other countries who have and will violate the people's trust. But 
 when exposing the few puts the many at risk, it's a bad deal.
>>> 
>>> all governments have to drink the kool-aid; i suspect what was being 
>>> expressed was that European public opinion has a significantly different 
>>> statistical spread than US opinion
>>> 
>>> regarding putting people at risk, the US government and others have been 
>>> shown to be willing to exploit secrecy for things that put people at risk: 
>>> torture, killing, starting wars, run-of-the-mill exploitation ...
>>> 
>>> so it seems to be both a question of gradation and trade-offs; exposure of 
>>> secrets is (thankfully) far from the exclusive domain of wikileaks
>>> 
 If wikileaks has accomplished anything good, it would be that it has led 
 the government to tighten security. The U.S. serviceman who provided much 
 of the classified information that was released will spend most of his 
 life in jail.
>>> 
>>> we can guess the outcome, but at the moment he's undergoing pre-trial 
>>> torture, so he may lose the capability of rationally describing his actions
>> 
>> He's not being tortured. They took his clothes away and gave him a velcro 
>> sheath for night use, because he was considered a suicide risk.
>> 
>> He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal democrat 
>> president is torturing a U.S. citizen?
>> 
>>> 
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On Mar 18, 2011, at 10:39 PM, David Parsons wrote:

> Not personally, but with his tacit or explicit support, yes.
> Depriving a prisoner of clothing is not standard procedure in in any
> US jail or prison.

Providing alternate clothing for prisoners who might be a suicide risk is 
standard procedure in prisons.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Paul Stenquist
>  wrote:
> 
>> He's not being tortured. They took his clothes away and gave him a velcro 
>> sheath for night use, because he was considered a suicide risk.
>> 
>> He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal democrat 
>> president is torturing a U.S. citizen?
>> 
>>> 
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> 
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-18 Thread William Robb


On 18/03/2011 8:28 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:






He's not being tortured. They took his clothes away and gave him a velcro 
sheath for night use, because he was considered a suicide risk.

Have you considered that they might just be saying that as an excuse to 
humiliate him?



He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal democrat 
president is torturing a U.S. citizen?

Well, actually, it's the US military. They sometimes seem to be above 
the President.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 2011-03-18 20:28 , Paul Stenquist wrote:

He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal democrat 
president is torturing a U.S. citizen?


Obama sucks

there, i said it

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011/3/19 Paul Stenquist :
>
> From what I've read, seriously disturbed sounds much more likely.

If you look at how he's treated in prison there will be no telling how
sane he may have been once they're done with him. He's on POI watch
and in isolated confinement. He walks figure 8s for a while once a day
and the rest of the day (and night if his face is not visible) he is
asked if he is OK every 5 minutes. that is sleep and interaction
deprivation torture. sorry but that makes wikileaks even more
necessary. his lawyer, david r coombs has all the details if you care

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread Paul Stenquist


On Mar 19, 2011, at 5:48 AM, eckinator wrote:

> 2011/3/19 Paul Stenquist :
>> 
>> From what I've read, seriously disturbed sounds much more likely.
> 
> If you look at how he's treated in prison there will be no telling how
> sane he may have been once they're done with him. He's on POI watch
> and in isolated confinement. He walks figure 8s for a while once a day
> and the rest of the day (and night if his face is not visible) he is
> asked if he is OK every 5 minutes. that is sleep and interaction
> deprivation torture. sorry but that makes wikileaks even more
> necessary. his lawyer, david r coombs has all the details if you care
> 

And of course the information his lawyer provides is completely accurate:-))) !
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread Walter Gilbert




On 3/19/2011 1:43 AM, steve harley wrote:

On 2011-03-18 20:28 , Paul Stenquist wrote:
He's Obama's prisoner. Are you trying to say that our liberal 
democrat president is torturing a U.S. citizen?


Obama sucks

there, i said it


Mark!

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at,, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread John Sessoms

From: Scott Loveless

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:21 AM, William Robb  
wrote:

> American = Wikileaks bad.
> Rest of world = Wikileaks good.
> And frankly, I don't think Wikileaks has hurt any innocent people.

Don't lump us all in together.  What with security theater at
airports, warrantless wire taps and the government's constant droning
of "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear", it's
freakin' obvious that a big chunk of the US gov't doesn't trust a big
chunk of the US.  The only people harmed by wikileaks are the
two-faced bastards in DC.  If they hadn't done anything wrong, they
wouldn't have anything to hide...

Hasn't really done that much harm to "the two-faced bastards in DC", 
other than creating a small amount of embarrassment over certain earthy 
and entirely accurate assessments of foreign government personalities 
made by our own ambassadors.

The innocents put in harms way are those local people in other countries 
who cooperated with the US to improve their own situations in their own 
countries - the village headmen in Afghanistan who mediated between 
their own people and NATO troops; the mid-level Taliban members who were 
open to finding a negotiated end to the current war, etc.

Like I said, just because Assange and Wikileaks are trying to stick it 
to the U.S. Government doesn't make them good guys.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at,, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread Bob Sullivan

>Like I said, just because Assange and Wikileaks are trying to stick it to the 
>U.S. Government doesn't make them good guys.

John,
You're right.  I think he's a form of pond scum.  And not too tough of
a target to hit either!
The US Government gets slightly embarrased.  The people mentioned face
grave danger.
...pond scum...
Regards,  Bob S.

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 8:22 AM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> From: Scott Loveless
>
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:21 AM, William Robb
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> > American = Wikileaks bad.
>>> > Rest of world = Wikileaks good.
>>> > And frankly, I don't think Wikileaks has hurt any innocent people.
>>
>> Don't lump us all in together.  What with security theater at
>> airports, warrantless wire taps and the government's constant droning
>> of "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear", it's
>> freakin' obvious that a big chunk of the US gov't doesn't trust a big
>> chunk of the US.  The only people harmed by wikileaks are the
>> two-faced bastards in DC.  If they hadn't done anything wrong, they
>> wouldn't have anything to hide...
>
> Hasn't really done that much harm to "the two-faced bastards in DC", other
> than creating a small amount of embarrassment over certain earthy and
> entirely accurate assessments of foreign government personalities made by
> our own ambassadors.
>
> The innocents put in harms way are those local people in other countries who
> cooperated with the US to improve their own situations in their own
> countries - the village headmen in Afghanistan who mediated between their
> own people and NATO troops; the mid-level Taliban members who were open to
> finding a negotiated end to the current war, etc.
>
> Like I said, just because Assange and Wikileaks are trying to stick it to
> the U.S. Government doesn't make them good guys.
>
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at,, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread Walter Gilbert

On 3/19/2011 8:22 AM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: Scott Loveless

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:21 AM, William Robb 
 wrote:

> American = Wikileaks bad.
> Rest of world = Wikileaks good.
> And frankly, I don't think Wikileaks has hurt any innocent people.

Don't lump us all in together.  What with security theater at
airports, warrantless wire taps and the government's constant droning
of "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear", it's
freakin' obvious that a big chunk of the US gov't doesn't trust a big
chunk of the US.  The only people harmed by wikileaks are the
two-faced bastards in DC.  If they hadn't done anything wrong, they
wouldn't have anything to hide...

Hasn't really done that much harm to "the two-faced bastards in DC", 
other than creating a small amount of embarrassment over certain 
earthy and entirely accurate assessments of foreign government 
personalities made by our own ambassadors.

The innocents put in harms way are those local people in other 
countries who cooperated with the US to improve their own situations 
in their own countries - the village headmen in Afghanistan who 
mediated between their own people and NATO troops; the mid-level 
Taliban members who were open to finding a negotiated end to the 
current war, etc.

Like I said, just because Assange and Wikileaks are trying to stick it 
to the U.S. Government doesn't make them good guys.

The whole Wikileaks phenomenon is just about as irony-soaked as it 
gets.  At this point, there's absolutely nothing about the entire 
project that anyone can point to as a redeeming value.  Its titular 
leader is almost universally scorned by people on either side of the 
issue, and the cause it purportedly seeks to advance has been set back 
irreparably for generations.  Does anyone honestly believe that what has 
occurred will cause any of its targeted entities -- governmental, 
quasi-governmental, or non-governmental -- to operate in a more open 
fashion as a result of any of these leaks?

I'd submit that it's had the exact opposite effect, causing every entity 
that's been targeted to review its security procedures and make 
draconian adjustments, along with causing every potentially impacted 
entity get out in front of the possibility of similar leaks.  And, so 
far, the only marginal benefit that's occurred as a consequence of any 
of the leaks has amounted to little more than a confirmation of 
long-held suspicions among people on both sides.  The only real "shock" 
experienced by anyone over the information that's been uncovered is over 
the fact that none of it had come to light long ago.

And then there was the supreme irony of Assange petitioning the courts 
to keep secret the address listed in his bond information -- something 
that has always been a matter of public record.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338832/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-asked-judge-bail-address-secret.html

The world has been taken for a ride by the Don King of international 
intrigue.

-- Walt

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 19/03/2011 5:06 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:







And of course the information his lawyer provides is completely accurate:-))) !


Paul, your military and CIA are pretty well known to use torture of 
prisoners.
IIRC, it was George Bush who had waterboarding redefined into the 
equivalent of asking questions over a glass of soda.
Next you'll be telling us that Guantanamo Bay is a health spa and there 
has never been extraordinary rendition

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/fact-sheet-extraordinary-rendition

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 19/03/2011 6:26 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:







Obama sucks



Actually, the American government sucks, it doesn't matter which puppet 
is at the helm.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 3/19/2011 5:48 AM, eckinator wrote:

2011/3/19 Paul Stenquist:

 From what I've read, seriously disturbed sounds much more likely.

If you look at how he's treated in prison there will be no telling how
sane he may have been once they're done with him. He's on POI watch
and in isolated confinement. He walks figure 8s for a while once a day
and the rest of the day (and night if his face is not visible) he is
asked if he is OK every 5 minutes. that is sleep and interaction
deprivation torture. sorry but that makes wikileaks even more
necessary. his lawyer, david r coombs has all the details if you care

I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of 
them at this point.  Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an 
advocate, and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in 
court. There's even less penalty if the Government lies. as well. 
However  I find the story of torture to be unbelievable for a number of 
reasons not the least of which is that there's no percentage in it   
There''s no new information the military can squeeze out of him, and if 
he ever actually goes to trial, any actual torture will come out.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011/3/19 P. J. Alling :
>>
> I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of them
> at this point.  Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an advocate,
> and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in court. There's
> even less penalty if the Government lies. as well. However  I find the story
> of torture to be unbelievable for a number of reasons not the least of which
> is that there's no percentage in it   There''s no new information the
> military can squeeze out of him, and if he ever actually goes to trial, any
> actual torture will come out.

that is why "prevention of injury watch" is so smart - the argument is
they had to do it to keep him from committing suicide. they did it for
his own good. asking someone if he is ok every five minutes around the
clock has enormous impact on mental stability in the long run.
combined with the monotony it breaksup your life into a repetitive 5
minute cycle. you lose track of time in a matter of days and temporal
disorientation is known to accelerate all sorts of other ill effects.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 3/19/2011 3:09 PM, eckinator wrote:

2011/3/19 P. J. Alling:

I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of them
at this point.  Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an advocate,
and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in court. There's
even less penalty if the Government lies. as well. However  I find the story
of torture to be unbelievable for a number of reasons not the least of which
is that there's no percentage in it   There''s no new information the
military can squeeze out of him, and if he ever actually goes to trial, any
actual torture will come out.

that is why "prevention of injury watch" is so smart - the argument is
they had to do it to keep him from committing suicide. they did it for
his own good. asking someone if he is ok every five minutes around the
clock has enormous impact on mental stability in the long run.
combined with the monotony it breaksup your life into a repetitive 5
minute cycle. you lose track of time in a matter of days and temporal
disorientation is known to accelerate all sorts of other ill effects.
Once again, you are postulating torture for torture sake.  There's no 
percentage in it.  The Government gains nothing and can lose 
everything.  Rational beings don't risk that.  Manning is a known 
prisoner.  Even the most repressive government would think twice about 
the public relations disaster actually torturing such a prisoner would 
be.  You are exhibiting a fairly paranoid attitude about this.  No 
officer in the US military that cared about his career would allow this 
to happen, because eventually someone will have to be punished, and they 
know it wouldn't be a politician.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011/3/19 P. J. Alling :
>
> Once again, you are postulating torture for torture sake.  There's no
> percentage in it.  The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.
>  Rational beings don't risk that.  Manning is a known prisoner.  Even the
> most repressive government would think twice about the public relations
> disaster actually torturing such a prisoner would be.  You are exhibiting a
> fairly paranoid attitude about this.  No officer in the US military that
> cared about his career would allow this to happen, because eventually
> someone will have to be punished, and they know it wouldn't be a politician.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20029688-503543.html

even the UN are investigating it. the brig commander at quantico was
replaced following a complaint by coombs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1365493/Pentagon-tells-Obama-Bradley-Mannings-prison-treatment-appropriate--gets-just-hour-outside-cell.html

oh and this quote says it all: "Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell told
ABC News: ‘Assertions by liberal bloggers, or network reporters or
others that he is being mistreated, or somehow treated differently
than others, in isolation, are just not accurate.’"

liberal seems to be the new communist. mccarthy rears his ugly head if
you ask me...

can't agree with you at all about my attitude being paranoid - what
makes Manning so dangerous that he is on 23 hour lockdown with all of
his clothes and his prescription eyeglasses taken away from him? but
hey I guess anythingshort of extraordinary rendition is fair treatment
if you're a liberal...

obama should return his nobel peace prize - it was an advance payment
and he didn't deliver

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread Walter Gilbert




On 3/19/2011 4:14 PM, eckinator wrote:

liberal seems to be the new communist. mccarthy rears his ugly head if
you ask me...
If it's any consolation, conservative has been the new Nazi for many 
years now.


-- Walt

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011/3/19 Walter Gilbert :
>
>> liberal seems to be the new communist. mccarthy rears his ugly head if
>> you ask me...
>
> If it's any consolation, conservative has been the new Nazi for many years
> now.

haha yes it is - to each their own flavour of fascism I guess =/

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread steve harley


On 2011-03-19 13:20 , P. J. Alling wrote:

Once again, you are postulating torture for torture sake. There's no
percentage in it. The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.


apparently, the US government has figured out its percentages on torture 
outcomes and decided it's worth doing as long as the blame can be 
deflected somewhat; don't ask me for the analysis that led to this 
conclusion




Rational beings don't risk that.


governments, like corporations, are not "rational beings", they are 
subject to a decision-making dynamic that can defy rationality in 
startlingly different ways than human beings themselves defy rationality



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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 3/19/2011 6:48 PM, steve harley wrote:

On 2011-03-19 13:20 , P. J. Alling wrote:

Once again, you are postulating torture for torture sake. There's no
percentage in it. The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.


apparently, the US government has figured out its percentages on 
torture outcomes and decided it's worth doing as long as the blame can 
be deflected somewhat; don't ask me for the analysis that led to this 
conclusion




Rational beings don't risk that.


governments, like corporations, are not "rational beings", they are 
subject to a decision-making dynamic that can defy rationality in 
startlingly different ways than human beings themselves defy rationality



It's not the government that's rational, but the humans who run it and 
do it's bidding that are.  If you think that there are no consequences 
improper behavior should, just ask the General in charge of Abu Ghraib, 
she no longer has a career in the US military, the subordinates that 
were directly responsible were court-martialed and most received long 
prison sentences.  If Manning is being mistreated it will come out and 
heads will roll.  Maybe not the heads you want to roll but someone in 
the chain of responsibility will pay.  Hell, the US Navy just relieved 
the Skipper of the Enterprise for actions he took as the executive 
officer, that didn't even come close to mistreating a prisoner.  His 
immediate superiors who knew of his actions and tacitly allowed them to 
continue will be taking early retirement with loss of pay and rank.  
Their careers ruined as his.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011/3/20 P. J. Alling :
>>
> It's not the government that's rational, but the humans who run it and do
> it's bidding that are.  If you think that there are no consequences improper
> behavior should, just ask the General in charge of Abu Ghraib, she no longer
> has a career in the US military, the subordinates that were directly
> responsible were court-martialed and most received long prison sentences.
>  If Manning is being mistreated it will come out and heads will roll.  Maybe
> not the heads you want to roll but someone in the chain of responsibility
> will pay.  Hell, the US Navy just relieved the Skipper of the Enterprise for
> actions he took as the executive officer, that didn't even come close to
> mistreating a prisoner.  His immediate superiors who knew of his actions and
> tacitly allowed them to continue will be taking early retirement with loss
> of pay and rank.  Their careers ruined as his.

yes but how many get away with similar things? and how do you know
those weren't just pawn sacrifices... my impression is you don't do
such things unless you are in an athmosphere that condones or
encourages such conduct... any government that allows waterboarding
and other forms of torture must not act surprised when their
executives vary the routine a bit...

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread steve harley


On 2011-03-19 18:04 , P. J. Alling wrote:

If Manning is being mistreated it will come out and
heads will roll.


his mistreatment is "out" already -- it's been covered and editorialized 
about in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Daily Beast, etc.; and 
because it's been excused (and many people have a stake in the 
maintenance of that excuse) there seems a faint chance that heads will roll




the General in charge of Abu Ghraib [...] the
Skipper of the Enterprise


i have followed those scandals with curiosity; there was also Gen. 
Stanley McChrystal; but each of these actually disproves your thesis -- 
if these high-ranking officers were so rational, they wouldn't have done 
these "risky" things in the first place; it seems likely the 
organizational culture led to these behaviors



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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 3/19/2011 8:25 PM, eckinator wrote:

2011/3/20 P. J. Alling:

It's not the government that's rational, but the humans who run it and do
it's bidding that are.  If you think that there are no consequences improper
behavior should, just ask the General in charge of Abu Ghraib, she no longer
has a career in the US military, the subordinates that were directly
responsible were court-martialed and most received long prison sentences.
  If Manning is being mistreated it will come out and heads will roll.  Maybe
not the heads you want to roll but someone in the chain of responsibility
will pay.  Hell, the US Navy just relieved the Skipper of the Enterprise for
actions he took as the executive officer, that didn't even come close to
mistreating a prisoner.  His immediate superiors who knew of his actions and
tacitly allowed them to continue will be taking early retirement with loss
of pay and rank.  Their careers ruined as his.

yes but how many get away with similar things? and how do you know
those weren't just pawn sacrifices... my impression is you don't do
such things unless you are in an athmosphere that condones or
encourages such conduct... any government that allows waterboarding
and other forms of torture must not act surprised when their
executives vary the routine a bit...
You know, Ecki man, I love you but I'm bowing out of this conversation.  
There's no reasoning with you.  You seem to be completely paranoid on 
this matter.  You seem to be impervious to fact and logic.  Oh, and by 
the way, I'm getting pretty tired of hearing that water boarding is 
"torture".  I have friends who have undergone training to withstand 
interrogation, and being water boarded is part of the training.  It's a 
thoroughly unpleasant experience, but calling it torture is like saying 
being slapped with a wet towel is the same as being whipped with a bull 
whip.  One will cause your flesh to sting, the latter will rip it off.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 3/19/2011 8:26 PM, steve harley wrote:

On 2011-03-19 18:04 , P. J. Alling wrote:

If Manning is being mistreated it will come out and
heads will roll.


his mistreatment is "out" already -- it's been covered and 
editorialized about in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Daily 
Beast, etc.; and because it's been excused (and many people have a 
stake in the maintenance of that excuse) there seems a faint chance 
that heads will roll




the General in charge of Abu Ghraib [...] the
Skipper of the Enterprise


i have followed those scandals with curiosity; there was also Gen. 
Stanley McChrystal; but each of these actually disproves your thesis 
-- if these high-ranking officers were so rational, they wouldn't have 
done these "risky" things in the first place; it seems likely the 
organizational culture led to these behaviors



You know, I can't refute your argument, it's just so air tight.  I bow 
to your superior intellect.   The fact that McChrystal got into trouble 
for making fun of his superiors, and you know, who wouldn't make fun of 
Joe Biden,  and Capt. Owen was relieved because he made some tapes to 
raise moral as XO, that wouldn't have actually raised an eyebrow it they 
had been produced for Cinemax, kind of makes my point.  But don't 
worry.  You win.  I'll go away quietly.  It really matters not to me if 
I win this argument.  If you want to believe that the US Government 
sanctions torture for tortures sake I can't stop you.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at,, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread John Sessoms


From: "P. J. Alling"


I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of
them at this point.  Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an
advocate, and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in
court.


Under the U.S. system there's no penalty if the lawyer lies in court as 
long as he's not under oath.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at,, PayPal


On 3/19/2011 10:31 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: "P. J. Alling"


I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of
them at this point.  Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an
advocate, and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in
court.


Under the U.S. system there's no penalty if the lawyer lies in court 
as long as he's not under oath.



Good point.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 19/03/2011 1:20 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:




 The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.

Rational beings don't risk that.


We ~are~ talking about the US government and the US military Peter.
Rational doesn't really enter into it.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 19/03/2011 3:52 PM, Walter Gilbert wrote:






If it's any consolation, conservative has been the new Nazi for many
years now.



With what's going on in Wisconsin, it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread David Parsons

That sounds good if you think that people are always rational actors.
But they aren't.  They are imperfect, unreasonable, creatures driven
by emotion, even when there are very detailed procedures to follow.

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 3:20 PM, P. J. Alling
 wrote:
> On 3/19/2011 3:09 PM, eckinator wrote:
>>
>> 2011/3/19 P. J. Alling:
>>>
>>> I deal with lawyers every day, so it's not as if I'd believe the one of
>>> them
>>> at this point.  Manning's lawyer not a neutral observer, he's an
>>> advocate,
>>> and there's no penalty if he lies, unless he's actually in court. There's
>>> even less penalty if the Government lies. as well. However  I find the
>>> story
>>> of torture to be unbelievable for a number of reasons not the least of
>>> which
>>> is that there's no percentage in it   There''s no new information the
>>> military can squeeze out of him, and if he ever actually goes to trial,
>>> any
>>> actual torture will come out.
>>
>> that is why "prevention of injury watch" is so smart - the argument is
>> they had to do it to keep him from committing suicide. they did it for
>> his own good. asking someone if he is ok every five minutes around the
>> clock has enormous impact on mental stability in the long run.
>> combined with the monotony it breaksup your life into a repetitive 5
>> minute cycle. you lose track of time in a matter of days and temporal
>> disorientation is known to accelerate all sorts of other ill effects.
>
> Once again, you are postulating torture for torture sake.  There's no
> percentage in it.  The Government gains nothing and can lose everything.
>  Rational beings don't risk that.  Manning is a known prisoner.  Even the
> most repressive government would think twice about the public relations
> disaster actually torturing such a prisoner would be.  You are exhibiting a
> fairly paranoid attitude about this.  No officer in the US military that
> cared about his career would allow this to happen, because eventually
> someone will have to be punished, and they know it wouldn't be a politician.
>
> --
> Where's the Kaboom?  There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom!
>
>        --Marvin the Martian.
>
>
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 19/03/2011 7:26 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:




 Oh, and by the

way, I'm getting pretty tired of hearing that water boarding is
"torture". I have friends who have undergone training to withstand
interrogation, and being water boarded is part of the training. It's a
thoroughly unpleasant experience, but calling it torture is like saying
being slapped with a wet towel is the same as being whipped with a bull
whip. One will cause your flesh to sting, the latter will rip it off.



Umm, Peter, you just fell down the rabbit hole with this one.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-19 Thread David Parsons

You are doing the same thing by stating that the government can't
possibly be doing anything wrong.

On Sat, Mar 19, 2011 at 9:41 PM, P. J. Alling
 wrote:
>>
> You know, I can't refute your argument, it's just so air tight.  I bow to
> your superior intellect.   The fact that McChrystal got into trouble for
> making fun of his superiors, and you know, who wouldn't make fun of Joe
> Biden,  and Capt. Owen was relieved because he made some tapes to raise
> moral as XO, that wouldn't have actually raised an eyebrow it they had been
> produced for Cinemax, kind of makes my point.  But don't worry.  You win.
>  I'll go away quietly.  It really matters not to me if I win this argument.
>  If you want to believe that the US Government sanctions torture for
> tortures sake I can't stop you.
>
> --
> Where's the Kaboom?  There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom!
>
>        --Marvin the Martian.
>
>
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 19/03/2011 7:41 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:




If you want to believe that the US Government sanctions

torture for tortures sake I can't stop you.



Don't obfuscate. Torture for any reason is still torture.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at,, PayPal

2011/3/20 P. J. Alling :
>>
>> Under the U.S. system there's no penalty if the lawyer lies in court as
>> long as he's not under oath.
>>
> Good point.

same goes for politicians and lying in public =P

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at,, PayPal

2011/3/20 eckinator :
> 2011/3/20 P. J. Alling :
>>>
>>> Under the U.S. system there's no penalty if the lawyer lies in court as
>>> long as he's not under oath.
>>>
>> Good point.
>
> same goes for politicians and lying in public =P
>

oops, wrong. from a certain level upwards they're all under oath and
there is still no penalty.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

Peter I hope you're reading this.

Because damn, coming from you that hurts. You're one of the people
I've always seen as sincere and genuine in a discussion. You always
stand your ground and that's admirable in its own right no matter what
your opinions are. And I trust you to not be someone who condones the
deliberate hurting of people. In fact I think if you felt something
was torture you'd be against it. In other words, I love you too, man.

I'm open to fact and logic.And I ask the same of you.

If AI or the UN say it wasn't torture I'll accept their judgement. If
'not for a long time to be privately fucking civilian' Manning says it
was I'll believe him, too. I have to give him that. If an ex CIA
staffer says publically that extraordinary renditions work like: "If
you want someone harshly questioned, send them to Jordan. If you want
them tortured, send them to Syria. And if you want someone to
disappear for good, send them to Egypt." Not the exact wording but
I'll find the name and source for you if you want it.

By the same token I fully believe you when you say they wouldn't do it
for lack of percentage. But believe me in my 25 or so years of
thinking teen and adult life I've seen vast numbers of people do vast
numbers of very odd things for vast numbers of very odd perceived
percentages that would never even occur to me.

What I'm saying is that just because you're in your right mind doesn't
make everyone else that way.

Sincerely
Ecke


2011/3/20 P. J. Alling :
>
> You know, Ecki man, I love you but I'm bowing out of this conversation.
>  There's no reasoning with you.  You seem to be completely paranoid on this
> matter.  You seem to be impervious to fact and logic.  Oh, and by the way,
> I'm getting pretty tired of hearing that water boarding is "torture".  I
> have friends who have undergone training to withstand interrogation, and
> being water boarded is part of the training.  It's a thoroughly unpleasant
> experience, but calling it torture is like saying being slapped with a wet
> towel is the same as being whipped with a bull whip.  One will cause your
> flesh to sting, the latter will rip it off.

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RE: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-20 Thread Bob W

> You know, Ecki man, I love you but I'm bowing out of this conversation.
> There's no reasoning with you.  You seem to be completely paranoid on
> this matter.  You seem to be impervious to fact and logic.  Oh, and by
> the way, I'm getting pretty tired of hearing that water boarding is
> "torture".  I have friends who have undergone training to withstand
> interrogation, and being water boarded is part of the training.  It's a
> thoroughly unpleasant experience, but calling it torture is like saying
> being slapped with a wet towel is the same as being whipped with a bull
> whip.  One will cause your flesh to sting, the latter will rip it off.

I can't believe you're seriously equating waterboarding with being slapped
with a wet towel, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that
you haven't really thought that one through. 

There's an enormous difference between undergoing something voluntarily for
training, carried out by people on your own side, in conditions where you
are in control, where you know the outcome and you know when it will end,
and being subjected to the same thing by your enemies while you're kept in
solitary confinement with no access to anyone else, not knowing where you
are, against your will, time after time for months and years, not knowing
when it will be over, but knowing that it's going to happen again and again
and again, and listening for the steps in the corridor that tell you they're
coming back.

The strongest argument against it is that it is immoral and is not the sort
of behaviour that a liberal democracy should be involved with, but even if
we leave the morality of it to one side, it is illegal internationally under
agreements that your country and mine have signed up to, so the people who
do it, and those who authorise it, are breaking the law and should be
treated accordingly, put on trial with the likes of Milosovic.

By claiming that it is not illegal, and not even torture, they are also
exposing their own people to the same treatment when they are captured by
our countries' enemies, and you can be sure that if we in turn capture those
enemies a plea of "it's legal and not even torture" will not be any help to
them.

And it doesn't work. Information obtained under that level of duress,
whether you call it torture or not, is useless. People will say whatever
their captors want them to say, just to try and make it stop. The very
people who waterboarded Khaled Sheikh Mohammed have admitted that his
information was useless. 

It doesn't even work as a deterrent. On the contrary, it just breeds more
terrorists. 

It's the behaviour of the grossly stupid.

B


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal




On 3/19/2011 10:48 PM, William Robb wrote:

On 19/03/2011 3:52 PM, Walter Gilbert wrote:






If it's any consolation, conservative has been the new Nazi for many
years now.



With what's going on in Wisconsin, it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.


That's an utterly ignorant (if unsurprising) statement.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

   Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail 
to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also are 
subjected to it in training.  They know how it works.  It's just that 
it's unpleasant enough to remain effective.


That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me 
to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being 
subjected to it in return.


-- Walt

On 3/20/2011 5:10 AM, Bob W wrote:

There's an enormous difference between undergoing something voluntarily for
training, carried out by people on your own side, in conditions where you
are in control, where you know the outcome and you know when it will end,
and being subjected to the same thing by your enemies while you're kept in
solitary confinement with no access to anyone else, not knowing where you
are, against your will, time after time for months and years, not knowing
when it will be over, but knowing that it's going to happen again and again
and again, and listening for the steps in the corridor that tell you they're
coming back.



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RE: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-20 Thread Bob W

> 
> Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail
> to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also
> are
> subjected to it in training.  They know how it works.  It's just that
> it's unpleasant enough to remain effective.
> 

the evidence suggests that it's not effective. But that's not what matters,
what matters is the moral issue. Even if it was 100% effective it would
still be wrong and we should not do it.

> That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me
> to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being
> subjected to it in return.
> 

that's a damn silly thing to say, the sort of thing you hear in playgrounds.
We're supposed to be different from those people. Use of their tactics makes
us indistinguishable and means we have lost the fight to defend and promote
our values.

B


> -- Walt
> 
> On 3/20/2011 5:10 AM, Bob W wrote:
> > There's an enormous difference between undergoing something
> voluntarily for
> > training, carried out by people on your own side, in conditions where
> you
> > are in control, where you know the outcome and you know when it will
> end,
> > and being subjected to the same thing by your enemies while you're
> kept in
> > solitary confinement with no access to anyone else, not knowing where
> you
> > are, against your will, time after time for months and years, not
> knowing
> > when it will be over, but knowing that it's going to happen again and
> again
> > and again, and listening for the steps in the corridor that tell you
> they're
> > coming back.
> 
> 
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal




On 3/20/2011 7:37 AM, Bob W wrote:

 Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail
to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also
are
subjected to it in training.  They know how it works.  It's just that
it's unpleasant enough to remain effective.


the evidence suggests that it's not effective. But that's not what matters,
what matters is the moral issue. Even if it was 100% effective it would
still be wrong and we should not do it.

Which evidence would you be talking about?  There is testimony and 
evidence that valuable information was extracted from Khalid Sheikh 
Muhammed, and Abu Zubayda that let to the interruption of terrorist 
attacks, saving lives.  And, if you can waterboard someone -- 10 times 
or 100 times -- and it saves peoples lives, and the anguish and 
psychological terror of all the people connected with those lives, 
directly or indirectly, it's justifiable.

That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me
to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being
subjected to it in return.


that's a damn silly thing to say, the sort of thing you hear in playgrounds.
We're supposed to be different from those people. Use of their tactics makes
us indistinguishable and means we have lost the fight to defend and promote
our values.

That operates from the incorrect assumption that waterboarding isn't 
different from their tactics.  It quite clearly is, whether you want to 
recognize it or not.



B



-- Walt

On 3/20/2011 5:10 AM, Bob W wrote:

There's an enormous difference between undergoing something

voluntarily for

training, carried out by people on your own side, in conditions where

you

are in control, where you know the outcome and you know when it will

end,

and being subjected to the same thing by your enemies while you're

kept in

solitary confinement with no access to anyone else, not knowing where

you

are, against your will, time after time for months and years, not

knowing

when it will be over, but knowing that it's going to happen again and

again

and again, and listening for the steps in the corridor that tell you

they're

coming back.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-20 Thread Paul Stenquist


On Mar 20, 2011, at 8:37 AM, Bob W wrote:

>> 
>>Why is it that whenever someone raises this point, they always fail
>> to recognize that the people who are subjected to waterboarding also
>> are
>> subjected to it in training.  They know how it works.  It's just that
>> it's unpleasant enough to remain effective.
>> 
> 
> the evidence suggests that it's not effective. But that's not what matters,
> what matters is the moral issue. Even if it was 100% effective it would
> still be wrong and we should not do it.
> 
>> That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me
>> to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being
>> subjected to it in return.
>> 
> 
> that's a damn silly thing to say, the sort of thing you hear in playgrounds.
> We're supposed to be different from those people. Use of their tactics makes
> us indistinguishable and means we have lost the fight to defend and promote
> our values.
> 

Flying an airplane full of civilians into a building is torture. Beheading a 
journalist on videotape so his family can see him die is torture. Waterboarding 
is just damn unpleasant.
Paul

> B
> 
> 
>> -- Walt
>> 
>> On 3/20/2011 5:10 AM, Bob W wrote:
>>> There's an enormous difference between undergoing something
>> voluntarily for
>>> training, carried out by people on your own side, in conditions where
>> you
>>> are in control, where you know the outcome and you know when it will
>> end,
>>> and being subjected to the same thing by your enemies while you're
>> kept in
>>> solitary confinement with no access to anyone else, not knowing where
>> you
>>> are, against your will, time after time for months and years, not
>> knowing
>>> when it will be over, but knowing that it's going to happen again and
>> again
>>> and again, and listening for the steps in the corridor that tell you
>> they're
>>> coming back.
>> 
>> 
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist :
>
> Flying an airplane full of civilians into a building is torture. Beheading a 
> journalist on videotape so his family can see him die is torture. 
> Waterboarding is just damn unpleasant.

uncontestedly waterboarding is less evil. but perpetrating something
less evil to possibly prevent something more evil makes you just that:
less evil. but nonetheless evil. not good. and by a far cry not
morally superior. maybe you're a bit farther down on the food chain
but still an evildoer.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal




On 3/20/2011 8:34 AM, eckinator wrote:

2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist:

Flying an airplane full of civilians into a building is torture. Beheading a 
journalist on videotape so his family can see him die is torture. Waterboarding 
is just damn unpleasant.

uncontestedly waterboarding is less evil. but perpetrating something
less evil to possibly prevent something more evil makes you just that:
less evil. but nonetheless evil. not good. and by a far cry not
morally superior. maybe you're a bit farther down on the food chain
but still an evildoer.

Lesser evils are sometimes necessary evils.  The bombing of Dresden 
springs immediately to mind.


-- Walt

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 20/03/2011 6:21 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:






With what's going on in Wisconsin, it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.


That's an utterly ignorant (if unsurprising) statement.

So you are saying you are about as ignorant about what is going on in 
your own country as what is going on everywhere else.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

   No, Bill.  What I'm saying is that anyone who would say such a 
plainly idiotic thing obviously hasn't got the foggiest notion of what a 
Nazi is.


-- Walt

On 3/20/2011 9:15 AM, William Robb wrote:

On 20/03/2011 6:21 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:






With what's going on in Wisconsin, it's pretty hard to argue otherwise.


That's an utterly ignorant (if unsurprising) statement.

So you are saying you are about as ignorant about what is going on in 
your own country as what is going on everywhere else.





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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 20/03/2011 6:27 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:



That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me
to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being
subjected to it in return.



Does that include bombing civilians by the USAF?
Just wondering.

--

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal




On 3/20/2011 9:17 AM, William Robb wrote:

On 20/03/2011 6:27 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:



That said, I'd gladly submit myself to waterboarding if you'll allow me
to deploy any of the tactics typically used by the people being
subjected to it in return.



Does that include bombing civilians by the USAF?
Just wondering.

I fail to see the how having a bomb dropped on you is in anyway 
preferable to having a plane flown into your building, or being on that 
plane.


Still wondering?

-- Walt

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 20/03/2011 7:23 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:







Flying an airplane full of civilians into a building is torture.Beheading a journalist on videotape so his family can see him die is 

torture. Waterboarding is just damn unpleasant.



No Paul, waterboarding is just a rung or two down the evil ladder.
It doesn't make it good, just slightly less bad.
Just because my dog's breath is not as stinky as your dog's breath 
doesn't make my dog's breath pleasant.


As an aside, blind and unquestioning patriotism is very damaging to your 
country's best interests.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 20/03/2011 7:37 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:




Lesser evils are sometimes necessary evils. The bombing of Dresden
springs immediately to mind.



Just don't try to hold yourself up as a paragon of civilization and 
democracy after practising your lesser evils, since every lesser evil 
brings you closer and closer to being the evil that you like to think 
you abhor.


--

William Robb

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal




On 3/20/2011 9:26 AM, William Robb wrote:

On 20/03/2011 7:37 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:




Lesser evils are sometimes necessary evils. The bombing of Dresden
springs immediately to mind.



Just don't try to hold yourself up as a paragon of civilization and 
democracy after practising your lesser evils, since every lesser evil 
brings you closer and closer to being the evil that you like to think 
you abhor.


Duly noted as written by a man who can't distinguish between the 
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions 
and running Jews through gas chambers and incinerators.


-- Walt

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:

 the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions


I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow humans 
less equitably.  Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who recently 
awarded the tax breaks that precipitated his state's budget crisis seems 
to be merely icing on the cake.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:

the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions

I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow
humans less equitably. Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who
recently awarded the tax breaks that precipitated his state's budget
crisis seems to be merely icing on the cake.

It's at the very least debatable who the corn-fed fascists are here.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/03/12-death-threat-photos-against-gov.html

"I want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today
and in the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are
working with me have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you
and your republican dictators have to die. This is how it's going to
happen: I as well as many others know where you and your family
live, it's a matter of public records. We have all planned to assult
you by arriving at your house and putting a nice little bullet in
your head. However, this isn't enough. We also have decided that
this may not be enough to send the message. So we have built several
bombs that we have placed in various locations around the areas in
which we know that you frequent. This includes, your house, your
car, the state capitol, and well I won't tell you all of them
because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are not smart
enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided to
make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that
it's necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their
lives, making them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the
necessities to their families and themselves then We will "get rid
of" (in which I mean kill) the 8 of you. Please understand that this
does not include the heroic Senator that risked everything to go
aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. The 8 includes
the 7 senators and the dictator. We feel that it's worth our lives
becasue we would be saving the lives of 300,000 people. Please make
your peace with God as soon as possible and say goodbye to your
loved ones we will not wait any longer. Goodbye ASSHOLE"

http://www.doj.state.wi.us/absolutenm/templates/template_share.aspx?articleid=2448&zoneid=1

-- Walt

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-20 Thread Paul Stenquist

On Mar 20, 2011, at 11:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:

> On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:
>> the
>> dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions
> 
> I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow humans less 
> equitably.  Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who recently awarded the 
> tax breaks that precipitated his state's budget crisis seems to be merely 
> icing on the cake.
> 

You obviously haven't been following the Wisconsin situation closely, except 
perhaps Michael Moore's fictional version. Collective bargaining on non-salary 
issues in Wisconsin resulted in regulations that forced the state to keep a 
special education school open that had one student and four teachers. It forced 
them to fire four young, enthusiastic teachers when cuts had to be made, rather 
than one old guy who had been suspended twice for abusing students. And 
collective bargaining rights for salary haven't been lost. All that's changed 
is that the unions won't be able to dictate the way the state is run. The 
"corn-fed fascist," you refer to in your ad hominem attack, didn't cause the 
current budget crisis. He's only been in office for 60 days. He has tried to 
provide a better climate for business, so that manufacturers might stay in the 
state, and perhaps even some  new ones will relocate there -- rather than in 
the multitude of states that have low business taxes and right-to-work laws 
that effectively neuter unions. Wisconsin is still a union state; many others 
are not.

Oh, and by the way, the governor was elected at the ballot box. The people 
chose him and his policies. 

But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those who 
oppose wikileaks. It's really out of control and has led to so much nonsense. 
Most of it from people who have no grasp of U.S. issues or politics.

I'm finished.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist :
>
> But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those who 
> oppose wikileaks.

back to where I started: DONATE FOR JAPAN, Eckeleaks notwithstanding

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 20/03/2011 17:35, Walter Gilbert wrote:



On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:

the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions


I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow
humans less equitably. Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who
recently awarded the tax breaks that precipitated his state's budget
crisis seems to be merely icing on the cake.

It's at the very least debatable who the corn-fed fascists are here.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/03/12-death-threat-photos-against-gov.html


The straw in that man isn't even fit for mattresses.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 20/03/2011 17:55, Paul Stenquist wrote:


On Mar 20, 2011, at 11:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:


On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:

the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions


I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow humans less 
equitably.  Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who recently awarded the tax 
breaks that precipitated his state's budget crisis seems to be merely icing on 
the cake.



You obviously haven't been following the Wisconsin situation closely, except perhaps 
Michael Moore's fictional version. Collective bargaining on non-salary issues in 
Wisconsin resulted in regulations that forced the state to keep a special education 
school open that had one student and four teachers. It forced them to fire four young, 
enthusiastic teachers when cuts had to be made, rather than one old guy who had been 
suspended twice for abusing students. And collective bargaining rights for salary haven't 
been lost. All that's changed is that the unions won't be able to dictate the way the 
state is run. The "corn-fed fascist," you refer to in your ad hominem attack, 
didn't cause the current budget crisis. He's only been in office for 60 days. He has 
tried to provide a better climate for business, so that manufacturers might stay in the 
state, and perhaps even some  new ones will relocate there -- rather than in the 
multitude of states that have low business taxes and righ

t-to-work laws that effectively neuter unions. Wisconsin is still a union 
state; many others are not.

Been reading rather too much about it - from both sides.



Oh, and by the way, the governor was elected at the ballot box. The people 
chose him and his policies.


The propensity for the working American to vote directly contrary to its 
best interest has been a source of wonder and amusement for the rest of 
the world for decades.




But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those who 
oppose wikileaks. It's really out of control and has led to so much nonsense. 
Most of it from people who have no grasp of U.S. issues or politics.


Most of whom, sadly, live in the USA.


I'm finished.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal




On 3/20/2011 11:41 AM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 17:35, Walter Gilbert wrote:



On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:

the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions


I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow
humans less equitably. Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who
recently awarded the tax breaks that precipitated his state's budget
crisis seems to be merely icing on the cake.

It's at the very least debatable who the corn-fed fascists are here.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/03/12-death-threat-photos-against-gov.html 



The straw in that man isn't even fit for mattresses.


Well, what can I say.  All I can do is make my case and pray some 
fascist bastard doesn't shoot me for it.


-- Walt

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-20 Thread steve harley


On 2011-03-20 04:10 , Bob W wrote:

There's an enormous difference between undergoing something voluntarily for
training, carried out by people on your own side, in conditions where you
are in control, where you know the outcome and you know when it will end,
and being subjected to the same thing by your enemies [...]


what's more, one point i've seen made is that the waterboarding done for 
training is really not the same; only reference i can come up with for 
now is the wikipedia article on waterboarding:


declassified Justice Department report:

"One of the psychiatrist / interrogators acknowledged that the Agency's 
use of the technique is different from that used in SERE training 
because it is 'for real' and is more poignant and convincing."




(such as it is, the whole article full of fascinating points and references)

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal


On 20/03/2011 18:48, Walter Gilbert wrote:



On 3/20/2011 11:41 AM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 17:35, Walter Gilbert wrote:



On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:

the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector unions


I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow
humans less equitably. Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who
recently awarded the tax breaks that precipitated his state's budget
crisis seems to be merely icing on the cake.

It's at the very least debatable who the corn-fed fascists are here.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/03/12-death-threat-photos-against-gov.html



The straw in that man isn't even fit for mattresses.


Well, what can I say. All I can do is make my case and pray some fascist
bastard doesn't shoot me for it.


One particular FB wants to use a baseball bat.


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-20 Thread Larry Colen


On Mar 20, 2011, at 7:17 AM, Walter Gilbert wrote:

>   No, Bill.  What I'm saying is that anyone who would say such a plainly 
> idiotic thing obviously hasn't got the foggiest notion of what a Nazi is.

Mr. Godwin to the white courtesy phone.


--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

2011-03-20 Thread Paul Stenquist


On Mar 20, 2011, at 1:37 PM, eckinator wrote:

> 2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist :
>> 
>> But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those 
>> who oppose wikileaks.
> 
> back to where I started: DONATE FOR JAPAN, Eckeleaks notwithstanding

I did so today. Costco was offering to match donations, so I added some cash to 
my tally. A worthy cause that we can all agree on. I think:-).

Paul


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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal

Thank you Paul. You were a good man in my book before that, too =)

2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist :
>
> On Mar 20, 2011, at 1:37 PM, eckinator wrote:
>
>> 2011/3/20 Paul Stenquist :
>>>
>>> But this debate is a far cry from Ecke's snide little remarks about those 
>>> who oppose wikileaks.
>>
>> back to where I started: DONATE FOR JAPAN, Eckeleaks notwithstanding
>
> I did so today. Costco was offering to match donations, so I added some cash 
> to my tally. A worthy cause that we can all agree on. I think:-).
>
> Paul
>
>
>>
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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal




http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/waltergilbert
http://waltgilbert.posterous.com/ 
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Get it now 


On 3/20/2011 12:31 PM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 18:48, Walter Gilbert wrote:



On 3/20/2011 11:41 AM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 17:35, Walter Gilbert wrote:



On 3/20/2011 10:31 AM, mike wilson wrote:

On 20/03/2011 15:29, Walter Gilbert wrote:

the
dissolution of collective bargaining rights among public sector 
unions


I fail to see why anyone would want that, except to treat fellow
humans less equitably. Being promoted by the corn-fed fascist who
recently awarded the tax breaks that precipitated his state's budget
crisis seems to be merely icing on the cake.

It's at the very least debatable who the corn-fed fascists are here.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/03/12-death-threat-photos-against-gov.html 





The straw in that man isn't even fit for mattresses.


Well, what can I say. All I can do is make my case and pray some fascist
bastard doesn't shoot me for it.


One particular FB wants to use a baseball bat.



I'll supply the bat.

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Re: OT finally a chance to get even with those f***ers at, PayPal