Re: Pentax FF v APS

[Jos de Fotograaf]

For me, the only remaining advantage of FF over smaller sensor size is 
the smaller depth of field of FF, when this can be simulated nicely in 
software, I will be ready to step over to smaller sensor sizes.
Mirrorless is the future, I think, as it gives more freedom to the lens 
designer because no need for additional tricks to create room for the 
mirror, so: better lenses at less costs.



On 01/08/2020 08:36, Larry Colen wrote:



On Jul 31, 2020, at 1:34 AM, Henk Terhell  wrote:

Not that this provides any new information, but there is now a dedicated  
webpage of the Ricoh/Pentax product planning guy  on progress of the new APS-C 
flagship.
https://pentaxofficial.com/en/5848/ 


I've been considering that with 4-5 years between the K-1 and the new aps 
flagship, that's like three Moore's law cycles, almost 4, and in theory one 
moore's law cycle would account for the performance difference betwen aps and 
FF in sensor performance. The K-3 already outperforms the K-1 in terms of frame 
rate and buffer size. If it's really going to be flagship level, they should 
take all of the improvements in autofocus, and expand on them.  By the time the 
dust settles, if they do it right,  I'd expect that the only advantage the K-1 
will retain is a wider angle of  view on full frame lenses, and for some, the 
larger body would fit better in their hands.

I also know that if they even hint at a K-1 successor before the new aps is 
released, it would torpedo the sales of the aps.  I do, however, hope that 
there is a new ff body in the pipeline, and that it will be released as soon as 
they can after the aps.






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Re: Pentax FF v APS

[Henk Terhell]

It will be a challenge for Ricoh/Pentax to frame a new FF DSLR successor 
to the K-1.
But I don't doubt that there is a  future for FF though the camera 
market is shrinking.
The trend for FF consumer models is now set by Canon EOS RP and Nikon Z5 
with a price below that of fully featured APS-C's.
Now mirrorless FF cameras are getting so cheap and compact (not the 
lenses) many amateurs will be turning to FF.


Henk

Op 2020-08-01 om 08:36 schreef Larry Colen:



On Jul 31, 2020, at 1:34 AM, Henk Terhell  wrote:

Not that this provides any new information, but there is now a dedicated  
webpage of the Ricoh/Pentax product planning guy  on progress of the new APS-C 
flagship.
https://pentaxofficial.com/en/5848/ 


I've been considering that with 4-5 years between the K-1 and the new aps 
flagship, that's like three Moore's law cycles, almost 4, and in theory one 
moore's law cycle would account for the performance difference betwen aps and 
FF in sensor performance. The K-3 already outperforms the K-1 in terms of frame 
rate and buffer size. If it's really going to be flagship level, they should 
take all of the improvements in autofocus, and expand on them.  By the time the 
dust settles, if they do it right,  I'd expect that the only advantage the K-1 
will retain is a wider angle of  view on full frame lenses, and for some, the 
larger body would fit better in their hands.

I also know that if they even hint at a K-1 successor before the new aps is 
released, it would torpedo the sales of the aps.  I do, however, hope that 
there is a new ff body in the pipeline, and that it will be released as soon as 
they can after the aps.






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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[J.C. O'Connell]

On 5/20/2013 3:17 PM, Darren Addy wrote:

The same reason that camera makers made medium format film cameras
when the majority of users were more than happy with what they could
do with 35mm film cameras. (That is to say that there was a market for
them).

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 1:48 PM, J.C. O'Connell  wrote:

Well if APSC is "more than good enough" why did Pentax bother to develop and
actually
produce the 645D ? ? ? ? ?

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I say there was a NEED for the 645D, higher quality images than the 
APSC. As was once said,

Necessity is the mother of invention.

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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Darren Addy]

The same reason that camera makers made medium format film cameras
when the majority of users were more than happy with what they could
do with 35mm film cameras. (That is to say that there was a market for
them).

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 1:48 PM, J.C. O'Connell  wrote:
> Well if APSC is "more than good enough" why did Pentax bother to develop and
> actually
> produce the 645D ? ? ? ? ?
>
> --
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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Paul Stenquist]

There are some things for which APS-C isn't good enough: spreads in Vogue, 
billboards, and impressing the easily impressed. But for the vast majority of 
what the vast majority of us do, APS-C is indeed good enough.

Paul
On May 20, 2013, at 2:48 PM, J.C. O'Connell  wrote:

> Well if APSC is "more than good enough" why did Pentax bother to develop and 
> actually
> produce the 645D ? ? ? ? ?
> -- 
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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[J.C. O'Connell]

Well if APSC is "more than good enough" why did Pentax bother to develop 
and actually

produce the 645D ? ? ? ? ?
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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Tim Øsleby]

6) (or whatever the number is). Larger viewfinder.

For me, that's number one. More pixels, less DOF etc might come handy
every now and then,
but I know I would appreciate to see what's in frame when clicking the button.

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to arr is pirate



2013/5/20 Darren Addy :
> P.J. is right, at least in my case. If/when Pentax introduces a full
> frame DSLR, I will probably buy one (eventually) but I won't be one of
> the first in line. A full frame sensor, by itself doesn't really gain
> you anything except:
> 1) shallower DOF (at the same focal length, compared to a APS-C)
> 2) losing the crop factor (meaning your 15mm is a 15mm FOV instead of
> a 22mm FOV) - helpful at the wide angle end and for tilt-shift lens
> users.
> 3) more megapixels (potentially significant depending upon the pixel pitch)
> 4) if a larger pixel pitch, then potentially better noise performance
> at equivalent ISOs
>

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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Joseph McAllister]

On May 19, 2013, at 16:50 , Darren Addy wrote:

> I should also mention another significant negative... when you lose
> the crop factor you lose at the telephoto end. So your 500mm lens goes
> back to being a 500mm FOV instead of a 750mm FOV... meaning you will
> have to buy longer lenses to make up for what you lost (or keep your
> APS-C camera for just such a reason).

Or buy a Q body for 2750 mm lens when you really have to reach.

At that power, you really get into atmospherics anomalies, plus lens design 
flaws that show up when you are only using the very center of the field of view 
of a given 35mm lens. Sure is fun to try though!


Joseph McAllister
Too much gear, not much time






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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Christine Aguila]

In Chicago we say "maybe next year."  :-)  Christine


On May 19, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Kenneth Waller  wrote:

> Like the Brooklyn Dodgers said year after year when they had just lost the 
> World Series - 'Wait till next year'.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
>> From: "P.J. Alling" 
>> Subject: Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?
>> 
>> On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
>>> From: "J.C. O'Connell"
>>>> Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?
>>> 
>>> The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
>>> that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
>>> Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
>>> on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
>>> pilgrimage last week).
>>> 
>>> Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
>>> will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".
>>> 
>> The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is 
>> always a next year...
>> 
>> -- 
>> There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard drive 
>> failure, and those that will.
> 
> 
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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Boris Liberman]

On 5/20/2013 5:44 AM, J.C. O'Connell wrote:

The simple physics is that if the FF sensor is 50% longer than the APSC
sensor in both dimensions,
the FF lens only needs to provide 2/3 the resolution of the APSC lens
to match the overall system resolution. If the FF lens approaches the
quality of the APSC lens, then a near doubling of system resolution can
be achieved. What this means in real world terms is that you dont need
"super world class" lenses on FF to get great results, unlike with APCS
sized sensors.


JC, consider this: 36 MP of Nikon D800 is more than twice the 16 MP of 
Pentax K-5 or Nikon D7000. Therefore your FF Nikkors ought to be as good 
as they are on your APS-C D7000 in terms of spatial resolution.


Consider further, that it stands to reason that the next generation of 
FF sensors will have even more pixels in them. I vaguely (sorry :-( ) 
recall rumors of next Canon FF DSLR flagship having in excess of 40 MP. 
Therefore on FF your lenses actually have to be even better in this 
regard than they were on current APS-C cameras.


So in theory you're right, but it would seem to me that technology would 
soon enough overtake your theory, in a manner of speaking.


Boris


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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Boris Liberman]

On 5/20/2013 2:35 AM, Darren Addy wrote:

In short, the Pentax flagship cameras meet or exceed my expectations
right now and a full frame doesn't do a lot for me other than let me
proclaim that I have a full frame camera.


Very well said, Darren. I totally agree...

Now, not answering you directly, but rather to a topic question:

In fact, for me Pentax DSLRs such as K-5 exceed my expectations and 
abilities in such a manner that by now I shoot exclusively with Ricoh 
GXR-M module with or without K-mount adapter. I should say that A 50/1.2 
is one fine lens on that camera body and it is not as big or heavy... 
Additionally, Nokton 40/1.4 is even so much smaller and lighter making 
Ricoh GXR-M with it pretty much a perfect camera for me - in terms of 
size, ergonomics vs price, convenience vs picture quality that I am able 
to get from it.


In the past I was rather strong proponent of (Pentax) FF, but I have 
changed my mind. I don't think that I need the added bulk of FF camera 
(it ain't gonna be small, at least by now) and added bulk of RAW files 
from it - 24 MP RAW files aren't small... I may benefit some things such 
as AOV or DOF, but it is far less critical that I thought it might be...


Boris



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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Larry Colen]

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 10:22:51PM -0400, J.C. O'Connell wrote:
> I disagree with one point made below. FF actually allows LOWER
> quality lenses to be
> used because the absolute lines/mm doesnt have to be as high for
> same quality of
> results.  Yes with some really bad lenses the softness in the
> corners may become more
> visible, but with decent lenses, FF puts less emphisis on lens
> quality than apsc does.

That's pretty much what Ken Rockwell says:

You Can Use Cheap Lenses!

I get better results on full-frame with crummy lenses than I do with my very 
best lenses on DX.

Having bigger pixels on a larger format means you can use cheaper lenses and 
usually get better results than the best lenses on a smaller format. The only 
reason I use the weasel word of "usually" is because as of 2007 we're only 
talking about a 1.6x linear format difference among consumer (under $9,000) 
DSLRs. In film, with a 2x linear difference from one format to the next, the 
crappiest lens on the next bigger format always smokes the very best lens on 
the next smaller format.



-- 
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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Rob Studdert]

On 20 May 2013 13:35, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> Current Pentax lenses work great on current Pentax cameras. Why belabor this 
> FF hysteria? All Pentax cameras have full frames. None have 24 x 36 frames. 
> Get over it.
> Pual

This is just a discussion on the physics of the issue, there's really
nothing to get over.

It might happen, it might not, personally I don't really care any longer.

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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Paul Stenquist]

Current Pentax lenses work great on current Pentax cameras. Why belabor this FF 
hysteria? All Pentax cameras have full frames. None have 24 x 36 frames. Get 
over it.
Pual
On May 19, 2013, at 10:51 PM, Rob Studdert  wrote:

> On 20 May 2013 12:44, J.C. O'Connell  wrote:
> 
>> The simple physics is that if the FF sensor is 50% longer than the APSC
>> sensor in both dimensions,
>> the FF lens only needs to provide 2/3 the resolution of the APSC lens
>> to match the overall system resolution. If the FF lens approaches the
>> quality of the APSC lens, then a near doubling of system resolution can
>> be achieved. What this means in real world terms is that you dont need
>> "super world class" lenses on FF to get great results, unlike with APCS
>> sized sensors.
> 
> Look at the MTF diagram of most any lens designed to cover a FF lens
> and note the fall off in resolution/contrast 2/3 from the centre of
> the frame, the APS sensors very conveniently disregard this area of
> poor performance.
> 
> --
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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Kenneth Waller]

Like the Brooklyn Dodgers said year after year when they had just lost the 
World Series - 'Wait till next year'.


-Original Message-
>From: "P.J. Alling" 
>Subject: Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?
>
>On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
>> From: "J.C. O'Connell"
>>> Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?
>>
>> The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
>> that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
>> Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
>> on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
>> pilgrimage last week).
>>
>> Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
>> will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".
>>
>The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is 
>always a next year...
>
>-- 
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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[J.C. O'Connell]

On 5/19/2013 10:51 PM, Rob Studdert wrote:

On 20 May 2013 12:44, J.C. O'Connell  wrote:


The simple physics is that if the FF sensor is 50% longer than the APSC
sensor in both dimensions,
the FF lens only needs to provide 2/3 the resolution of the APSC lens
to match the overall system resolution. If the FF lens approaches the
quality of the APSC lens, then a near doubling of system resolution can
be achieved. What this means in real world terms is that you dont need
"super world class" lenses on FF to get great results, unlike with APCS
sized sensors.

Look at the MTF diagram of most any lens designed to cover a FF lens
and note the fall off in resolution/contrast 2/3 from the centre of
the frame, the APS sensors very conveniently disregard this area of
poor performance.

--
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Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

yes, most FF lenses do have less sharpness in the corners, but as long 
as its not less than 2/3 of
a drop off, there is no overall system loss of resolution compared to a 
APSC lens/sensor system
with no corner dropoff whatsoever.  Its similar to large format film vs 
smaller format film. The larger
the format, the less critical the lens becomes because the absolute 
resolution of the lens times
the area covered is still more than a small format area used with a high 
resolution lens.


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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Rob Studdert]

On 20 May 2013 12:44, J.C. O'Connell  wrote:

> The simple physics is that if the FF sensor is 50% longer than the APSC
> sensor in both dimensions,
> the FF lens only needs to provide 2/3 the resolution of the APSC lens
> to match the overall system resolution. If the FF lens approaches the
> quality of the APSC lens, then a near doubling of system resolution can
> be achieved. What this means in real world terms is that you dont need
> "super world class" lenses on FF to get great results, unlike with APCS
> sized sensors.

Look at the MTF diagram of most any lens designed to cover a FF lens
and note the fall off in resolution/contrast 2/3 from the centre of
the frame, the APS sensors very conveniently disregard this area of
poor performance.

--
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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[J.C. O'Connell]

On 5/19/2013 10:27 PM, Rob Studdert wrote:

On 20 May 2013 12:22, J.C. O'Connell  wrote:

I disagree with one point made below. FF actually allows LOWER quality
lenses to be
used because the absolute lines/mm doesnt have to be as high for same
quality of
results.  Yes with some really bad lenses the softness in the corners may
become more
visible, but with decent lenses, FF puts less emphisis on lens quality than
apsc does.

The problem is twofold, firstly obviously lens quality falls off
towards the edges so many lenses that were OK on cropped format may
look decidedly less attractive when used on a  full frame body.
Secondly people will pixel peep 100%, make judgements and proclaim a
lens good or bad without considering magnification factor or final
print sizes.

--
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Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

The simple physics is that if the FF sensor is 50% longer than the APSC 
sensor in both dimensions,

the FF lens only needs to provide 2/3 the resolution of the APSC lens
to match the overall system resolution. If the FF lens approaches the
quality of the APSC lens, then a near doubling of system resolution can
be achieved. What this means in real world terms is that you dont need
"super world class" lenses on FF to get great results, unlike with APCS
sized sensors.

--
J.C. O'Connell
hifis...@gate.net
--


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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Rob Studdert]

On 20 May 2013 12:22, J.C. O'Connell  wrote:
> I disagree with one point made below. FF actually allows LOWER quality
> lenses to be
> used because the absolute lines/mm doesnt have to be as high for same
> quality of
> results.  Yes with some really bad lenses the softness in the corners may
> become more
> visible, but with decent lenses, FF puts less emphisis on lens quality than
> apsc does.

The problem is twofold, firstly obviously lens quality falls off
towards the edges so many lenses that were OK on cropped format may
look decidedly less attractive when used on a  full frame body.
Secondly people will pixel peep 100%, make judgements and proclaim a
lens good or bad without considering magnification factor or final
print sizes.

--
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Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[J.C. O'Connell]

I disagree with one point made below. FF actually allows LOWER quality 
lenses to be
used because the absolute lines/mm doesnt have to be as high for same 
quality of
results.  Yes with some really bad lenses the softness in the corners 
may become more
visible, but with decent lenses, FF puts less emphisis on lens quality 
than apsc does.


--
J.C. O'Connell
hifis...@gate.net
--





On 5/19/2013 7:35 PM, Darren Addy wrote:

P.J. is right, at least in my case. If/when Pentax introduces a full
frame DSLR, I will probably buy one (eventually) but I won't be one of
the first in line. A full frame sensor, by itself doesn't really gain
you anything except:
1) shallower DOF (at the same focal length, compared to a APS-C)
2) losing the crop factor (meaning your 15mm is a 15mm FOV instead of
a 22mm FOV) - helpful at the wide angle end and for tilt-shift lens
users.
3) more megapixels (potentially significant depending upon the pixel pitch)
4) if a larger pixel pitch, then potentially better noise performance
at equivalent ISOs

The downsides:
It depends upon what sort of shooting you do, but a larger filesize is
probably going to mean lower frames per second on burst performance
for action shooting, compared to a APS-C camera. Fewer frames until
your buffer is full and has to wait to take another shot.
Larger filesizes means more computing power to post-process and store
images (something we seem willing to live with).
Macro shooters will find thinner DOF to be a disadvantage, rather than
an advantage
Full frame DSLRs will really show the deficiencies in your lenses,
particularly in the corners.

That said, Pentax probably needs to produce a full frame DSLR, just to
show they belong with the "big boys" and prevent some (more) from
jumping ship to another brand.

For my part, I love wide angle but find that the Sigma EX 10-20mm more
than meets my needs on the wide angle end of the spectrum on a APS-C
camera. I also love macro, so the increased DOF is a plus on an APS-C.
The K-5/K-5 II already leads the pack at high ISO performance and the
megapixels already exceeds what I need for the print sizes I will
realistically ever print. I can get shallow DOF with my Sigma EX 28mm
f1.8, my CZJ 35mm f2.4, and my 85mm f1.5s (heck, the DOF is shallow
enough in many cases on my Bigma - why would I want to make it more
challenging?)

In short, the Pentax flagship cameras meet or exceed my expectations
right now and a full frame doesn't do a lot for me other than let me
proclaim that I have a full frame camera.

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:09 PM, P.J. Alling  wrote:

If there isn't we probably won't care...


On 5/19/2013 7:04 PM, Tim Øsleby wrote:

Are you sure?
--
MaritimTim

My private photo blog: http://maritimtim.blogspot.com/



To err is human
to arr is pirate




2013/5/20 P.J. Alling :

On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: "J.C. O'Connell"

Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?


The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
pilgrimage last week).

Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".


The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is always
a
next year...

--
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drive
failure, and those that will.


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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Doug Brewer]

On 5/19/13 8:42 PM, Mark Roberts wrote:

P.J. Alling wrote:


The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is
always a next year...


These rumors go in cycles. I remember the "645D is vaporware" threads
and the (60-250/4 is vaporware) threads.




Not to mention the "Pentax DSLR is vaporware" threads.

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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Mark Roberts]

P.J. Alling wrote:

>The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is 
>always a next year...

These rumors go in cycles. I remember the "645D is vaporware" threads
and the (60-250/4 is vaporware) threads.
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Rob Studdert]

On 20 May 2013 10:17, Darren Addy  wrote:
> True, but, if i'm honest with myself i'm already cropping my APS-C
> images to Pentax Q sizes.
> ;)

Har, I know where you're coming from, I really could have done with a
500mm lens at the airshow I attended a couple of weeks back :)

--
Rob Studdert (Digital  Image Studio)
Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Darren Addy]

True, but, if i'm honest with myself i'm already cropping my APS-C
images to Pentax Q sizes.
;)

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Rob Studdert  wrote:
> On 20 May 2013 09:50, Darren Addy  wrote:
>> I should also mention another significant negative... when you lose
>> the crop factor you lose at the telephoto end. So your 500mm lens goes
>> back to being a 500mm FOV instead of a 750mm FOV... meaning you will
>> have to buy longer lenses to make up for what you lost (or keep your
>> APS-C camera for just such a reason).
>
> Or you could play a little trick on yourself and crop out an APS-c
> sized pic  (assuming similar pixel density) :)
>
> --
> Rob Studdert (Digital  Image Studio)
> Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
> Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio
>
> --
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> the directions.



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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Rob Studdert]

On 20 May 2013 09:50, Darren Addy  wrote:
> I should also mention another significant negative... when you lose
> the crop factor you lose at the telephoto end. So your 500mm lens goes
> back to being a 500mm FOV instead of a 750mm FOV... meaning you will
> have to buy longer lenses to make up for what you lost (or keep your
> APS-C camera for just such a reason).

Or you could play a little trick on yourself and crop out an APS-c
sized pic  (assuming similar pixel density) :)

--
Rob Studdert (Digital  Image Studio)
Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Darren Addy]

I should also mention another significant negative... when you lose
the crop factor you lose at the telephoto end. So your 500mm lens goes
back to being a 500mm FOV instead of a 750mm FOV... meaning you will
have to buy longer lenses to make up for what you lost (or keep your
APS-C camera for just such a reason).

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Darren Addy  wrote:
> Sorry typo: that should be 85mm f1.8s (and the CZJ is a Flektogon Electric)
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Darren Addy  wrote:
>> P.J. is right, at least in my case. If/when Pentax introduces a full
>> frame DSLR, I will probably buy one (eventually) but I won't be one of
>> the first in line. A full frame sensor, by itself doesn't really gain
>> you anything except:
>> 1) shallower DOF (at the same focal length, compared to a APS-C)
>> 2) losing the crop factor (meaning your 15mm is a 15mm FOV instead of
>> a 22mm FOV) - helpful at the wide angle end and for tilt-shift lens
>> users.
>> 3) more megapixels (potentially significant depending upon the pixel pitch)
>> 4) if a larger pixel pitch, then potentially better noise performance
>> at equivalent ISOs
>>
>> The downsides:
>> It depends upon what sort of shooting you do, but a larger filesize is
>> probably going to mean lower frames per second on burst performance
>> for action shooting, compared to a APS-C camera. Fewer frames until
>> your buffer is full and has to wait to take another shot.
>> Larger filesizes means more computing power to post-process and store
>> images (something we seem willing to live with).
>> Macro shooters will find thinner DOF to be a disadvantage, rather than
>> an advantage
>> Full frame DSLRs will really show the deficiencies in your lenses,
>> particularly in the corners.
>>
>> That said, Pentax probably needs to produce a full frame DSLR, just to
>> show they belong with the "big boys" and prevent some (more) from
>> jumping ship to another brand.
>>
>> For my part, I love wide angle but find that the Sigma EX 10-20mm more
>> than meets my needs on the wide angle end of the spectrum on a APS-C
>> camera. I also love macro, so the increased DOF is a plus on an APS-C.
>> The K-5/K-5 II already leads the pack at high ISO performance and the
>> megapixels already exceeds what I need for the print sizes I will
>> realistically ever print. I can get shallow DOF with my Sigma EX 28mm
>> f1.8, my CZJ 35mm f2.4, and my 85mm f1.5s (heck, the DOF is shallow
>> enough in many cases on my Bigma - why would I want to make it more
>> challenging?)
>>
>> In short, the Pentax flagship cameras meet or exceed my expectations
>> right now and a full frame doesn't do a lot for me other than let me
>> proclaim that I have a full frame camera.
>>
>> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:09 PM, P.J. Alling  
>> wrote:
>>> If there isn't we probably won't care...
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/19/2013 7:04 PM, Tim Øsleby wrote:

 Are you sure?
 --
 MaritimTim

 My private photo blog: http://maritimtim.blogspot.com/


 
 To err is human
 to arr is pirate

 


 2013/5/20 P.J. Alling :
>
> On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
>>
>> From: "J.C. O'Connell"
>>>
>>> Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?
>>
>>
>> The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
>> that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
>> Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
>> on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
>> pilgrimage last week).
>>
>> Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
>> will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".
>>
> The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is always
> a
> next year...
>
> --
> There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard
> drive
> failure, and those that will.
>
>
> --
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
> follow the directions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard drive
>>> failure, and those that will.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> PDML@pdml.net
>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>>> follow the directions.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Photography is a Bastard left by Science on the Doorstep of Art" -
>> Peter Galassi
>
>
>
> --
> "Photography is a Bastard left by Science on the Doorstep of Art" -
> Peter Galassi



-- 
"Photography is a Bastard left 

Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Darren Addy]

Sorry typo: that should be 85mm f1.8s (and the CZJ is a Flektogon Electric)

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Darren Addy  wrote:
> P.J. is right, at least in my case. If/when Pentax introduces a full
> frame DSLR, I will probably buy one (eventually) but I won't be one of
> the first in line. A full frame sensor, by itself doesn't really gain
> you anything except:
> 1) shallower DOF (at the same focal length, compared to a APS-C)
> 2) losing the crop factor (meaning your 15mm is a 15mm FOV instead of
> a 22mm FOV) - helpful at the wide angle end and for tilt-shift lens
> users.
> 3) more megapixels (potentially significant depending upon the pixel pitch)
> 4) if a larger pixel pitch, then potentially better noise performance
> at equivalent ISOs
>
> The downsides:
> It depends upon what sort of shooting you do, but a larger filesize is
> probably going to mean lower frames per second on burst performance
> for action shooting, compared to a APS-C camera. Fewer frames until
> your buffer is full and has to wait to take another shot.
> Larger filesizes means more computing power to post-process and store
> images (something we seem willing to live with).
> Macro shooters will find thinner DOF to be a disadvantage, rather than
> an advantage
> Full frame DSLRs will really show the deficiencies in your lenses,
> particularly in the corners.
>
> That said, Pentax probably needs to produce a full frame DSLR, just to
> show they belong with the "big boys" and prevent some (more) from
> jumping ship to another brand.
>
> For my part, I love wide angle but find that the Sigma EX 10-20mm more
> than meets my needs on the wide angle end of the spectrum on a APS-C
> camera. I also love macro, so the increased DOF is a plus on an APS-C.
> The K-5/K-5 II already leads the pack at high ISO performance and the
> megapixels already exceeds what I need for the print sizes I will
> realistically ever print. I can get shallow DOF with my Sigma EX 28mm
> f1.8, my CZJ 35mm f2.4, and my 85mm f1.5s (heck, the DOF is shallow
> enough in many cases on my Bigma - why would I want to make it more
> challenging?)
>
> In short, the Pentax flagship cameras meet or exceed my expectations
> right now and a full frame doesn't do a lot for me other than let me
> proclaim that I have a full frame camera.
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:09 PM, P.J. Alling  
> wrote:
>> If there isn't we probably won't care...
>>
>>
>> On 5/19/2013 7:04 PM, Tim Øsleby wrote:
>>>
>>> Are you sure?
>>> --
>>> MaritimTim
>>>
>>> My private photo blog: http://maritimtim.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> To err is human
>>> to arr is pirate
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/5/20 P.J. Alling :

 On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
>
> From: "J.C. O'Connell"
>>
>> Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?
>
>
> The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
> that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
> Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
> on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
> pilgrimage last week).
>
> Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
> will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".
>
 The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is always
 a
 next year...

 --
 There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard
 drive
 failure, and those that will.


 --
 PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 PDML@pdml.net
 http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
 to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
 follow the directions.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard drive
>> failure, and those that will.
>>
>>
>> --
>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> PDML@pdml.net
>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>> follow the directions.
>
>
>
> --
> "Photography is a Bastard left by Science on the Doorstep of Art" -
> Peter Galassi



-- 
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the directions.

Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Darren Addy]

P.J. is right, at least in my case. If/when Pentax introduces a full
frame DSLR, I will probably buy one (eventually) but I won't be one of
the first in line. A full frame sensor, by itself doesn't really gain
you anything except:
1) shallower DOF (at the same focal length, compared to a APS-C)
2) losing the crop factor (meaning your 15mm is a 15mm FOV instead of
a 22mm FOV) - helpful at the wide angle end and for tilt-shift lens
users.
3) more megapixels (potentially significant depending upon the pixel pitch)
4) if a larger pixel pitch, then potentially better noise performance
at equivalent ISOs

The downsides:
It depends upon what sort of shooting you do, but a larger filesize is
probably going to mean lower frames per second on burst performance
for action shooting, compared to a APS-C camera. Fewer frames until
your buffer is full and has to wait to take another shot.
Larger filesizes means more computing power to post-process and store
images (something we seem willing to live with).
Macro shooters will find thinner DOF to be a disadvantage, rather than
an advantage
Full frame DSLRs will really show the deficiencies in your lenses,
particularly in the corners.

That said, Pentax probably needs to produce a full frame DSLR, just to
show they belong with the "big boys" and prevent some (more) from
jumping ship to another brand.

For my part, I love wide angle but find that the Sigma EX 10-20mm more
than meets my needs on the wide angle end of the spectrum on a APS-C
camera. I also love macro, so the increased DOF is a plus on an APS-C.
The K-5/K-5 II already leads the pack at high ISO performance and the
megapixels already exceeds what I need for the print sizes I will
realistically ever print. I can get shallow DOF with my Sigma EX 28mm
f1.8, my CZJ 35mm f2.4, and my 85mm f1.5s (heck, the DOF is shallow
enough in many cases on my Bigma - why would I want to make it more
challenging?)

In short, the Pentax flagship cameras meet or exceed my expectations
right now and a full frame doesn't do a lot for me other than let me
proclaim that I have a full frame camera.

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:09 PM, P.J. Alling  wrote:
> If there isn't we probably won't care...
>
>
> On 5/19/2013 7:04 PM, Tim Øsleby wrote:
>>
>> Are you sure?
>> --
>> MaritimTim
>>
>> My private photo blog: http://maritimtim.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> 
>> To err is human
>> to arr is pirate
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> 2013/5/20 P.J. Alling :
>>>
>>> On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

 From: "J.C. O'Connell"
>
> Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?


 The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
 that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
 Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
 on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
 pilgrimage last week).

 Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
 will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".

>>> The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is always
>>> a
>>> next year...
>>>
>>> --
>>> There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard
>>> drive
>>> failure, and those that will.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> PDML@pdml.net
>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>>> follow the directions.
>
>
>
> --
> There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard drive
> failure, and those that will.
>
>
> --
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
> follow the directions.



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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[P.J. Alling]

If there isn't we probably won't care...

On 5/19/2013 7:04 PM, Tim Øsleby wrote:

Are you sure?
--
MaritimTim

My private photo blog: http://maritimtim.blogspot.com/


To err is human
to arr is pirate



2013/5/20 P.J. Alling :

On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: "J.C. O'Connell"

Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?


The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
pilgrimage last week).

Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".


The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is always a
next year...

--
There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard drive
failure, and those that will.


--
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follow the directions.



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failure, and those that will.


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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[Tim Øsleby]

Are you sure?
--
MaritimTim

My private photo blog: http://maritimtim.blogspot.com/


To err is human
to arr is pirate



2013/5/20 P.J. Alling :
> On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:
>>
>> From: "J.C. O'Connell"
>>>
>>> Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?
>>
>>
>> The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
>> that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
>> Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
>> on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
>> pilgrimage last week).
>>
>> Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
>> will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".
>>
> The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is always a
> next year...
>
> --
> There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard drive
> failure, and those that will.
>
>
> --
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
> follow the directions.

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Re: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[P.J. Alling]

On 5/19/2013 4:21 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: "J.C. O'Connell"

Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?


The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
pilgrimage last week).

Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".

The beauty being that the the rumor will always be fresh, there is 
always a next year...


--
There are two kinds of computer users those who've experienced a hard drive 
failure, and those that will.


--
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RE: Pentax FF DSLR is vaporware?

[John Sessoms]

From: "J.C. O'Connell"

Seriously, what is the latest rumours about FF Pentax dslr?


The latest seems to be the "officially deemed FAKE" mid-March 2013 rumor
that Pentax would announce the K-3 using Sony's 24mp full-frame sensor.
Instead we got 9 bold new colors for the K-30 (which BTW was no longer
on display at Tiger Direct during my weekly music/computer store
pilgrimage last week).

Since then, all I'm aware of is the recurring generic rumor that Pentax
will announce a Full Frame DSLR "next year".

--
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to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Boris Liberman]

Let the waiting commence! (I refer to the time it took Pentax to develop 
and bring to market 60-250 lens)...


On 2/3/2013 10:36 PM, Dario Bonazza wrote:

Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo





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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[John Sessoms]

It would be nice if I lived long enough to see a full frame 645D. I
believe it could happen, but it won't be soon.

From: Bruce Walker


Which is implicitly covered by "the 1.0 crop factor". AOV, DOF are
both different. You get the "35mm look" which is undoubtedly a
desirable feature.

But it gets even better with a medium format camera (645D anyone?) and
better still with a large format. I think my own shooting could
benefit from something like a Phase One back on a Mamiya body.
Absolutely gorgeous tonal rendering and bokeh in portraits, like
nothing you can get with any FF or APS-C.



Ooops, back to the Real World. :-)

(But I see that Vistek has a special on a used P25: $5300. All I need
now is the Mamiya and some lenses ...)

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, George Sinos  wrote:

One difference not often mentioned is that it is easier to achieve
shallow depth of field with a larger sensor.  gs



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RE: Pentax FF is going to happen

[J.C. O'Connell]

The difference in DOF between FF and apsc is approx 1 fstop.

-
J.C.O'Connell
hifis...@gate.net
-

-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Mark Roberts
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 7:43 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

George Sinos wrote:

>One difference not often mentioned is that it is easier to achieve
>shallow depth of field with a larger sensor.  gs

I find the difference in DOF between APS-C and FF is so small it's not
worth mentioning. When you get up to 6x7 format, though... Then DOF
gets small enough to be a real issue at times. (And why large format
cameras need lens tilt.)
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Mark Roberts]

George Sinos wrote:

>One difference not often mentioned is that it is easier to achieve
>shallow depth of field with a larger sensor.  gs

I find the difference in DOF between APS-C and FF is so small it's not
worth mentioning. When you get up to 6x7 format, though... Then DOF
gets small enough to be a real issue at times. (And why large format
cameras need lens tilt.)
 
-- 
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www.robertstech.com





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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Bruce Walker]

Which is implicitly covered by "the 1.0 crop factor". AOV, DOF are
both different. You get the "35mm look" which is undoubtedly a
desirable feature.

But it gets even better with a medium format camera (645D anyone?) and
better still with a large format. I think my own shooting could
benefit from something like a Phase One back on a Mamiya body.
Absolutely gorgeous tonal rendering and bokeh in portraits, like
nothing you can get with any FF or APS-C.



Ooops, back to the Real World. :-)

(But I see that Vistek has a special on a used P25: $5300. All I need
now is the Mamiya and some lenses ...)

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 7:04 PM, George Sinos  wrote:
> One difference not often mentioned is that it is easier to achieve
> shallow depth of field with a larger sensor.  gs
>
> George Sinos
> 
> gsi...@gmail.com
> www.georgesphotos.net
> plus.georgesinos.com
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 5:19 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
>> ...snip...
>>
>> Besides the 1.0 crop factor sensor, is there anything _fundamentally_
>> different between FF cameras and comparable APS-C cameras?
>
> ...snip...
>
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> the directions.



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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[George Sinos]

One difference not often mentioned is that it is easier to achieve
shallow depth of field with a larger sensor.  gs

George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net
plus.georgesinos.com


On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 5:19 PM, Bruce Walker  wrote:
> ...snip...
>
> Besides the 1.0 crop factor sensor, is there anything _fundamentally_
> different between FF cameras and comparable APS-C cameras?

...snip...

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Larry Colen]

> And that, pretty much, is how I feel about FF.  My photo course starts up
> again on Friday (another three years to go for us part timers) and I still
> don't have the unbearable itch to go FF even as my classmates look at 5D
> III and D600s. There is so much that I can do that doesn't require FF that
> I can wait another year or two. I waited long enough for the *ist-D, I can
> do it again. It would be nice to have tethering software but that is the
> only thing I couldn't do that my Nikon and Canon classmates could (I am
> the only non Nikon or Canon shooter).

When I bought my K100 about five years ago, the cost of DSLRs had finally
dropped below my pain threshold, and the goal was a short term investment
that would last me a few years until a camera with the performance I
wanted was available.  I wasn't even going to buy anything beyond the kit
lens, as I had gone almost 20 years with just a 58/1.4, then my 35-105
series 1 pretty much did everything I needed since then.  That lasted
almost a week until I tried some low light photography, and bought an FA31
the following Monday.
Initially, except for the 18-250 I only bought lenses that would work on
full frame.  Fast forward a K20, a K-x and 3-4 years and the K-5 was
released.
It was the DSLR that I had been wanting ever since I first started looking
at them.  It has some warts, though most of them are things I could fix
with access to the source code.
Assuming that I'm still employed, I'll probably get a full frame body
if/when the price is below $2500.  There is very little that I *need* it
for, but it would sure be nice to widen the field of view of my 20, 31 and
50mm fast lenses for shooting indoors at what on APS would be 14/1.8,
20/1.8 and 31/1.4.
Also, my 50/2.8 macro would be a good walkabout in the forest lens, so I
wouldn't need to get a 35/2.8.  My bigma would go from standard to long
rather than short tele to very long tele, and then be surprisingly useful
as a rather large walkaround lens.
So, as you can see, since I took care to buy mostly lenses that would work
on full frame, buying a full frame body would be easy to justify on the
basis of the money that it would save me on lenses that I would
effectively get for free with it.


-- 
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Bruce Walker]

Besides commercial studio shooting and classroom situations, is there
any real need for tethering?

Besides the 1.0 crop factor sensor, is there anything _fundamentally_
different between FF cameras and comparable APS-C cameras? We should
really think long and hard about how some other manufacturer's FF body
would enable us to improve our photography or enable us to shoot
subjects that are impossible to shoot now.

I'm not saying there aren't good uses for a FF, but many of us are
evaluating the leap from, say a K-5 to a Nikon 800E. Feature-wise
that's really a jump from a semi-pro to a pro level camera. The
features you gain there aren't attributes of FF per se, but rather
they are pro level features.


On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Paul Ewins  wrote:
> And that, pretty much, is how I feel about FF.  My photo course starts up 
> again on Friday (another three years to go for us part timers) and I still 
> don't have the unbearable itch to go FF even as my classmates look at 5D III 
> and D600s. There is so much that I can do that doesn't require FF that I can 
> wait another year or two. I waited long enough for the *ist-D, I can do it 
> again. It would be nice to have tethering software but that is the only thing 
> I couldn't do that my Nikon and Canon classmates could (I am the only non 
> Nikon or Canon shooter).
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 06/02/2013, at 7:17 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
>
>> I'd guess that my raw technical skill and ability to get a clear, sharp, 
>> photograph is likely in the upper half of people who own DSLRs and three or 
>> more lenses for them. I choose three to distinguish from the people who buy 
>> a DSLR kit with one or two lenses and use them as an expensive point and 
>> shoot.
>>
>> If Pentax were to make a full frame version of the K-5, i.e. same pixel 
>> density and performance on a 24x36 sensor, and the same performance and 
>> features otherwise, I expect that I would see two advantages:
>> 1) I would effectively have nearly twice the number of lenses, because most 
>> of my glass would work without vignetting, and I'd get 1.5x wider AOVs on 
>> all of my lenses. Mind you, my 50 on APS would be the same AOV as my 77 on 
>> FF, so the actual difference is probably closer to 1.5 times the lens 
>> choices rather than 2 times.
>>
>> 2) Due to the physics limitations of registration distance, I'd see a 
>> substantial improvement in performance at the wide end, particularly in low 
>> light.
>>
>> I would, however, be surprised to find a huge difference in the sharpness, 
>> clarity, technical excellence, whatever in the vast majority of my photos.  
>> I'm pretty good at pushing the limits of performance of my gear in stupid 
>> low light, but landscapes and such, in good light. First, I'll need to spend 
>> a lot of money on a much better tripod and head than I have.  And then there 
>> are all of the physical limitations as mentioned in other posts in this and 
>> the sister thread on the topic.
>>
>> I think that it would be accurate to say that for the vast majority of 
>> people that might buy a camera, the only two things that a full frame DSLR 
>> Pentax would give them over an APS equivalent are bragging rights and less 
>> money in their bank account. So, in a reality based market, Pentax would be 
>> a little foolish to bring out a FF DSLR.
>>
>> The market, however, is not reality based.  There are a tremendous number of 
>> people that won't buy Pentax, or are considering changing to another brand 
>> because Pentax doesn't have a FF option.  Never mind that in most respects 
>> the K-5 will outperform a large percentage of FF DSLRs, and we can probably 
>> expect a significant improvement in the next generation of body.
>>
>> If the goal of Pentax were to produce a camera system with the absolute best 
>> possible image performance they would (cue wailing and moaning and gnashing 
>> of teeth) abandon the DSLR format and develop a mirrorless system that uses 
>> a 24x36, or larger, sensor.  The physical limitations of a mirrorbox, 
>> combined with the jarring and vibration of a 24x36 mirror bouncing around 
>> every time that you take a photo are direct impediments to the imaging 
>> system.  As soon as you have to add lenses for retrofocus you lose speed and 
>> sharpness of your lens.  If the mirror bouncing around weren't a problem, 
>> there wouldn't be so much attention paid to mirror lockup, and two second 
>> delays. I'm sorry, but physics is simply an unforgiving bitch.
>>
>> I suppose that Pentax could try some sort of crazy end run and keep the 
>> K-mount and registration distance by doing something like putting a 645D 
>> (36x48) sensor in something like a K-01.  A medium format sensor and a 35mm 
>> registration distance, and you have at least the theoretical potential for 
>> wider AOV without the retrofocus elements, but I don't think that even 
>> Pentax's pet mad scientists are quite that crazy.  Hell, I don't think that 
>> even I'm th

Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Paul Ewins]

And that, pretty much, is how I feel about FF.  My photo course starts up again 
on Friday (another three years to go for us part timers) and I still don't have 
the unbearable itch to go FF even as my classmates look at 5D III and D600s. 
There is so much that I can do that doesn't require FF that I can wait another 
year or two. I waited long enough for the *ist-D, I can do it again. It would 
be nice to have tethering software but that is the only thing I couldn't do 
that my Nikon and Canon classmates could (I am the only non Nikon or Canon 
shooter).

Sent from my iPhone

On 06/02/2013, at 7:17 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

> I'd guess that my raw technical skill and ability to get a clear, sharp, 
> photograph is likely in the upper half of people who own DSLRs and three or 
> more lenses for them. I choose three to distinguish from the people who buy a 
> DSLR kit with one or two lenses and use them as an expensive point and shoot.
> 
> If Pentax were to make a full frame version of the K-5, i.e. same pixel 
> density and performance on a 24x36 sensor, and the same performance and 
> features otherwise, I expect that I would see two advantages:
> 1) I would effectively have nearly twice the number of lenses, because most 
> of my glass would work without vignetting, and I'd get 1.5x wider AOVs on all 
> of my lenses. Mind you, my 50 on APS would be the same AOV as my 77 on FF, so 
> the actual difference is probably closer to 1.5 times the lens choices rather 
> than 2 times.
> 
> 2) Due to the physics limitations of registration distance, I'd see a 
> substantial improvement in performance at the wide end, particularly in low 
> light.
> 
> I would, however, be surprised to find a huge difference in the sharpness, 
> clarity, technical excellence, whatever in the vast majority of my photos.  
> I'm pretty good at pushing the limits of performance of my gear in stupid low 
> light, but landscapes and such, in good light. First, I'll need to spend a 
> lot of money on a much better tripod and head than I have.  And then there 
> are all of the physical limitations as mentioned in other posts in this and 
> the sister thread on the topic.
> 
> I think that it would be accurate to say that for the vast majority of people 
> that might buy a camera, the only two things that a full frame DSLR Pentax 
> would give them over an APS equivalent are bragging rights and less money in 
> their bank account. So, in a reality based market, Pentax would be a little 
> foolish to bring out a FF DSLR.
> 
> The market, however, is not reality based.  There are a tremendous number of 
> people that won't buy Pentax, or are considering changing to another brand 
> because Pentax doesn't have a FF option.  Never mind that in most respects 
> the K-5 will outperform a large percentage of FF DSLRs, and we can probably 
> expect a significant improvement in the next generation of body.
> 
> If the goal of Pentax were to produce a camera system with the absolute best 
> possible image performance they would (cue wailing and moaning and gnashing 
> of teeth) abandon the DSLR format and develop a mirrorless system that uses a 
> 24x36, or larger, sensor.  The physical limitations of a mirrorbox, combined 
> with the jarring and vibration of a 24x36 mirror bouncing around every time 
> that you take a photo are direct impediments to the imaging system.  As soon 
> as you have to add lenses for retrofocus you lose speed and sharpness of your 
> lens.  If the mirror bouncing around weren't a problem, there wouldn't be so 
> much attention paid to mirror lockup, and two second delays. I'm sorry, but 
> physics is simply an unforgiving bitch.
> 
> I suppose that Pentax could try some sort of crazy end run and keep the 
> K-mount and registration distance by doing something like putting a 645D 
> (36x48) sensor in something like a K-01.  A medium format sensor and a 35mm 
> registration distance, and you have at least the theoretical potential for 
> wider AOV without the retrofocus elements, but I don't think that even 
> Pentax's pet mad scientists are quite that crazy.  Hell, I don't think that 
> even I'm that crazy.  
> 
> Yes, in good light, optical viewfinders have all sorts of advantages over 
> electronic.  But in lousy light electronic viewfinders work better, and in my 
> opinion the quality of the final image is more important than the quality of 
> the image in the viewfinder.  If an optical viewfinder were that important, I 
> could just buy an optical viewfinder to slip in the hot shoe.  
> 
> But, no matter what path they take, I'm fairly sure it will be one that will 
> allow me to use most of my existing lenses, at least with an adapter, and 
> that if the full frame body costs less than $3,000, and I'm still employed, 
> I'll probably buy one.
> 
> --
> Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to

Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 5/2/13, David Parsons, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Whatever Pentax is planning with FF, they are up to something.

Mark!

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 6/2/13, Brian Walters, discombobulated, unleashed:

>That seems at odds with this marvelous image that you, yourself,  
>posted and which doesn't seem to have any trace of chocolate (Belgian  
>or otherwise) in its composition.
>
>
>http://www.cottysnaps.com/yum.html

Oh *that* one. I ate that a couple of years ago with a sharp Muscadet if
I recall correctly. I think the context might have been something to do
with 'if William Robb rejoins the list, I'll eat my...'

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Larry Colen]

I'd guess that my raw technical skill and ability to get a clear, sharp, 
photograph is likely in the upper half of people who own DSLRs and three or 
more lenses for them. I choose three to distinguish from the people who buy a 
DSLR kit with one or two lenses and use them as an expensive point and shoot.

If Pentax were to make a full frame version of the K-5, i.e. same pixel density 
and performance on a 24x36 sensor, and the same performance and features 
otherwise, I expect that I would see two advantages:
1) I would effectively have nearly twice the number of lenses, because most of 
my glass would work without vignetting, and I'd get 1.5x wider AOVs on all of 
my lenses. Mind you, my 50 on APS would be the same AOV as my 77 on FF, so the 
actual difference is probably closer to 1.5 times the lens choices rather than 
2 times.

2) Due to the physics limitations of registration distance, I'd see a 
substantial improvement in performance at the wide end, particularly in low 
light.

I would, however, be surprised to find a huge difference in the sharpness, 
clarity, technical excellence, whatever in the vast majority of my photos.  I'm 
pretty good at pushing the limits of performance of my gear in stupid low 
light, but landscapes and such, in good light. First, I'll need to spend a lot 
of money on a much better tripod and head than I have.  And then there are all 
of the physical limitations as mentioned in other posts in this and the sister 
thread on the topic.

I think that it would be accurate to say that for the vast majority of people 
that might buy a camera, the only two things that a full frame DSLR Pentax 
would give them over an APS equivalent are bragging rights and less money in 
their bank account. So, in a reality based market, Pentax would be a little 
foolish to bring out a FF DSLR.

The market, however, is not reality based.  There are a tremendous number of 
people that won't buy Pentax, or are considering changing to another brand 
because Pentax doesn't have a FF option.  Never mind that in most respects the 
K-5 will outperform a large percentage of FF DSLRs, and we can probably expect 
a significant improvement in the next generation of body.

If the goal of Pentax were to produce a camera system with the absolute best 
possible image performance they would (cue wailing and moaning and gnashing of 
teeth) abandon the DSLR format and develop a mirrorless system that uses a 
24x36, or larger, sensor.  The physical limitations of a mirrorbox, combined 
with the jarring and vibration of a 24x36 mirror bouncing around every time 
that you take a photo are direct impediments to the imaging system.  As soon as 
you have to add lenses for retrofocus you lose speed and sharpness of your 
lens.  If the mirror bouncing around weren't a problem, there wouldn't be so 
much attention paid to mirror lockup, and two second delays. I'm sorry, but 
physics is simply an unforgiving bitch.

I suppose that Pentax could try some sort of crazy end run and keep the K-mount 
and registration distance by doing something like putting a 645D (36x48) sensor 
in something like a K-01.  A medium format sensor and a 35mm registration 
distance, and you have at least the theoretical potential for wider AOV without 
the retrofocus elements, but I don't think that even Pentax's pet mad 
scientists are quite that crazy.  Hell, I don't think that even I'm that crazy. 
 

Yes, in good light, optical viewfinders have all sorts of advantages over 
electronic.  But in lousy light electronic viewfinders work better, and in my 
opinion the quality of the final image is more important than the quality of 
the image in the viewfinder.  If an optical viewfinder were that important, I 
could just buy an optical viewfinder to slip in the hot shoe.  

But, no matter what path they take, I'm fairly sure it will be one that will 
allow me to use most of my existing lenses, at least with an adapter, and that 
if the full frame body costs less than $3,000, and I'm still employed, I'll 
probably buy one.

--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est





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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[P. J. Alling]

Well I for one would want that, and I believe that when the MZ-D, 
(MR-52), was being developed there was full legacy support, by the time 
the *ist cameras were released not so much, and Pentax quickly added the 
green button KLUGE to the *ist-D firmware when the shitstorm hit.


On 2/3/2013 4:31 PM, ma...@redwoodhorses.com wrote:

The question regarding legacy lenses is, are they going to engineer the
mechanical controls for M type lens and integrate the electronic camera
controls that allow aperture control without operator intervention i.e. the
green button to set the meter  on the K-10 cameras?
Jonathan Ayers

-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of George Sinos
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 12:57 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

It will be interesting to see if they announce a FF lens roadmap at the same
time as an announcement of a FF camera body.  One of the nice things about
the Current aps-c line is the very nice set of available lenses designed
specifically for the crop format.

They'll need to move pretty fast.  Not many people are going to invest in a
body that only has a few current lenses available.

I know, there are a bunch of old lenses on the used market that will provide
limited functions.  That's a nice addition to a list of current offerings.
But you need to have at least a minimal catalog of two or three zooms to
draw a big enough consumer base to matter.

I'm sure they can partner with tamron, tokina or some third party lens maker
to re-badge enough lenses to get them quickly up to speed.

gs
George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net
plus.georgesinos.com


On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Dario Bonazza 
wrote:

Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[David Parsons]

Whatever Pentax is planning with FF, they are up to something.  They
seem to have remembered that they have a Pinterest account, and have
been pinning pictures of cameras and lenses for 2 days now.

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Dario Bonazza  wrote:


-- 
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http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com

Aloha Photographer Photoblog
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Brian Walters]

Quoting Steve Cottrell :


On 5/2/13, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:


I could clear the calander for a trip to Japan!
But I would still like to see the event in one of those old fashioned
teaching surgeries, where you sat down in the center and
the galleries ran in higher and higher circles around you.
And if you had any digestion problems, they could operate immediately.


I said I would eat my hat. I didn't say which one. I have a rather
fetching pith helmet made of Belgian chocolate. I won't be having
digestive problems ;-)



That seems at odds with this marvelous image that you, yourself,  
posted and which doesn't seem to have any trace of chocolate (Belgian  
or otherwise) in its composition.



http://www.cottysnaps.com/yum.html



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++
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Western Sydney Australia
http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/



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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[P. J. Alling]

If it happens at least Cotty will get lots of fiber.  Pentax won't be 
the last major manufacture to release a FF camera, Olympus and Panasonic 
still won't have.  Oh, wait...


On 2/3/2013 8:12 PM, Miserere wrote:

This might finally be the hat-eating moment we've all been waiting for  :-)

Cheers,

—M.

 \/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com

 http://EnticingTheLight.com
 A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment



On 3 February 2013 15:36, Dario Bonazza  wrote:

Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[P. J. Alling]

Well the source is Pentax Fora, and Pentax did have a FF camera in 
prototype before so that means nothing. Hell Pentax even had that FF 
prototype out in public for testing.

Just playing devils advocate here.

On 2/3/2013 4:05 PM, Dario Bonazza wrote:
Tokina people already undisclosed they are developing new lenses for 
Pentax.
http://www.pentaxforums.com/news/tokina-confirms-pentax-full-frame-under-development.html 



-Messaggio originale- From: George Sinos
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 9:57 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

It will be interesting to see if they announce a FF lens roadmap at
the same time as an announcement of a FF camera body. One of the nice
things about the Current aps-c line is the very nice set of available
lenses designed specifically for the crop format.

They'll need to move pretty fast. Not many people are going to invest
in a body that only has a few current lenses available.

I know, there are a bunch of old lenses on the used market that will
provide limited functions. That's a nice addition to a list of
current offerings. But you need to have at least a minimal catalog of
two or three zooms to draw a big enough consumer base to matter.

I'm sure they can partner with tamron, tokina or some third party lens
maker to re-badge enough lenses to get them quickly up to speed.

gs
George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net
plus.georgesinos.com


On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Dario Bonazza 
 wrote:

Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Tom C]

From: Miserere 
On 4 February 2013 14:21, Tom C  wrote:
>
>> It's hard to be competitive when producing in the low volumes Pentax
>> does. Most everybody wants a bargain and Pentax is viewed by many as
>> the bargain brand, yet Pentax's per unit costs must trend higher than
>> competitors because their volume is a mere fraction of, for example
>> Nikon. That means per unit profit will tend to be lower. Add to that
>> the aforementioned tendency of many Pentax users to 'wait until the
>> price drops' and you can see the struggle they face.
>>
>> I expect that they'll need to produce a FF camera, regardless of
>> profit margins, otherwise even their most die-hard proponents would
>> have a hard time taking them seriously.

>> I'm sure whatever they produce will be competent. Then the question
>> becomes will they have the lenses to complement the increased
>> resolution on a FF digital sensor? Right now there's nothing empiric
>> to know how their best FF legacy lenses will work on a FF sensor. No
>> doubt 'good enough' for web and smaller prints. So, following the way
>> of APS-C and FF competitors, a new body will prompt many to purchase
>> new, as of now, theoretical lenses.

> You mean increased resolution compared to film? In any case, if legacy
> lenses can withstand a K-5 sensor, they can withstand a 36MP FF
> sensor, and most of them perform just fine resolution wise on the K-5.

I mean increased from APS-C. I wasn't thinking about film. I also was
thinking of more than just mathematical resolution (but used only that
word). I disagree with a blanket statement on this.

I know the following is something you already know. For one, most
users of a FF digital would be moving up from APS-C. Their legacy film
lenses used on APS-C sensors had an advantage in that the image circle
projected on the sensor was cropped and represented pretty much the
sweet spot of the lens. It's possible the results from a given lens
were overall superior on APS-C as opposed to film. That same lens now
used on a high resolution FF sensor, will have what ever deficiencies
exist as one moves outwards from the center of the image circle
revealed.

One paragraph from a Thom Hogan article discussing the D800/E:

"Resolution not only reveals more detail, it can also reveal more
about how your lens performs. A lot was written about how the D800
would out-resolve lenses. Get that out of your mind, because that's
not what's happening. Your lenses are capable of resolving even more
than the D800 models will manage. But along with that extra resolution
comes the ability to actually resolve what the lenses are doing. Poor
corners become very obviously poor. Edge to edge sharpness differences
(miscentered elements, etc.) become more obvious, especially on a
D800E at or near maximum aperture. Chromatic aberrations now encompass
more pixels on edges, so often become more visible at pixel level,
too. Be prepared to see how your lens actually performs, at least if
you're a pixel peeper or printing big."

I'm not saying one can't obtain satisfactory results with legacy
lenses on FF digital. "Satisfactory" is relative to final output size
and end use of the image. It would be somewhat of a shame to have a
higher resolution body and then essentially lose some of that
advantage.

As usual it's all in the eye of the beholder and of course constrained
by what's in the wallet.


>> If that's true, then the question is, if I need new lenses to make the
>> most out of the new body vs. accepting the likely limitations of
>> legacy lenses, is there much difference between staying with Pentax
>> and changing systems all together? Especially so, considering the
>> glacial slowness at which they seem to be moving.

> Blah, blah, blah. Look Tom, you ALWAYS need new lenses; stop trying to
> justify your habit to us, we're friends, we know the pain.

LOL. Good I have permission then :)

Tom C.

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 5/2/13, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:

>I could clear the calander for a trip to Japan!
>But I would still like to see the event in one of those old fashioned
>teaching surgeries, where you sat down in the center and
>the galleries ran in higher and higher circles around you.
>And if you had any digestion problems, they could operate immediately.

I said I would eat my hat. I didn't say which one. I have a rather
fetching pith helmet made of Belgian chocolate. I won't be having
digestive problems ;-)

-- 


Cheers,
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Bob Sullivan]

I could clear the calander for a trip to Japan!
But I would still like to see the event in one of those old fashioned
teaching surgeries, where you sat down in the center and
the galleries ran in higher and higher circles around you.
And if you had any digestion problems, they could operate immediately.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 4:04 AM, Steve Cottrell  wrote:
> On 4/2/13, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:
>
>>Hell, we could all book tickets to the UK to watch such a major event!
>>Maybe we could get an Oxford Univ. surgery amphitheater as a venue.
>
> Au contraire mon frere. I think Pentax OWE it to fly us all to Tokyo and
> provide me with a dining table at the FF unveiling!
>
> --
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Cotty
>
>
> ___/\__Broadcast, Corporate,
> ||  (O)  |Web Video Producion
> --
> _
>
>
>
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 4/2/13, Dario Bonazza, discombobulated, unleashed:

>If all those claiming "a FF by Pentax is arriving soon" will eat a sock or 
>two for each year they kept claiming that, I'm ready to help Cotty eating 
>his hat right now.

That did make me laugh. MARK!

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 4/2/13, Paul Stenquist, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Hasn't the statute of limitations run out on the hat munch? Cotty was
>right: no full frame. Doing it in a different eon doesn't count.

Oh I don't mind Paul. I'm 53 - chances are I'll be dead and buried by
the time it happens.

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 4/2/13, Bob Sullivan, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Hell, we could all book tickets to the UK to watch such a major event!
>Maybe we could get an Oxford Univ. surgery amphitheater as a venue.

Au contraire mon frere. I think Pentax OWE it to fly us all to Tokyo and
provide me with a dining table at the FF unveiling!

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 4/2/13, John Sessoms, discombobulated, unleashed:

>If so, I suggest it should happen during a grand gathering of the PDML 
>at Grandfather Mountain & duly documented for the sake of future 
>generations of Pentaxians.

You get my flight, I'll eat the hat.

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Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Rob Studdert]

On 5 February 2013 08:42, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> Hasn't the statute of limitations run out on the hat munch? Cotty was right: 
> no full frame. Doing it in a different eon doesn't count.

Where's the like button? :)

-- 
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Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Dario Bonazza]

If all those claiming "a FF by Pentax is arriving soon" will eat a sock or 
two for each year they kept claiming that, I'm ready to help Cotty eating 
his hat right now.

Dario

-Messaggio originale- 
From: Mark Roberts

Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 10:46 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

Paul Stenquist wrote:

Hasn't the statute of limitations run out on the hat munch? Cotty was 
right: no full frame. Doing it in a different eon doesn't count.


I'm pretty sure there was a "time out" called during the Hoya
ownership ;-)

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-
Nessun virus nel messaggio.
Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com
Versione: 2013.0.2897 / Database dei virus: 2639/6081 -  Data di rilascio: 
04/02/2013 



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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Mark Roberts]

Paul Stenquist wrote:

>Hasn't the statute of limitations run out on the hat munch? Cotty was right: 
>no full frame. Doing it in a different eon doesn't count.

I'm pretty sure there was a "time out" called during the Hoya
ownership ;-)
 
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Paul Stenquist]

Hasn't the statute of limitations run out on the hat munch? Cotty was right: no 
full frame. Doing it in a different eon doesn't count.

Paul via phone

On Feb 4, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:

> Hell, we could all book tickets to the UK to watch such a major event!
> Maybe we could get an Oxford Univ. surgery amphitheater as a venue.
> Regards,  Bob S.
> 
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 12:41 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
>> If so, I suggest it should happen during a grand gathering of the PDML at
>> Grandfather Mountain & duly documented for the sake of future generations of
>> Pentaxians.
>> 
>> From: Miserere
>> 
>>> This might finally be the hat-eating moment we've all been waiting for :-)
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> ?M.
>>> 
>>> \/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com
>>> 
>>> http://EnticingTheLight.com
>>> A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment
>>> 
>>> On 3 February 2013 15:36, Dario Bonazza  wrote:
 
 Official confirmation:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo
>> 
>> 
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Bob Sullivan]

Hell, we could all book tickets to the UK to watch such a major event!
Maybe we could get an Oxford Univ. surgery amphitheater as a venue.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 12:41 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> If so, I suggest it should happen during a grand gathering of the PDML at
> Grandfather Mountain & duly documented for the sake of future generations of
> Pentaxians.
>
> From: Miserere
>
>> This might finally be the hat-eating moment we've all been waiting for :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> ?M.
>>
>> \/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com
>>
>> http://EnticingTheLight.com
>> A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment
>>
>> On 3 February 2013 15:36, Dario Bonazza  wrote:
>>>
>>> Official confirmation:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo
>
>
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Miserere]

On 4 February 2013 14:21, Tom C  wrote:
>
> It's hard to be competitive when producing in the low volumes Pentax
> does. Most everybody wants a bargain and Pentax is viewed by many as
> the bargain brand, yet Pentax's per unit costs must trend higher than
> competitors because their volume is a mere fraction of, for example
> Nikon. That means per unit profit will tend to be lower. Add to that
> the aforementioned tendency of many Pentax users to 'wait until the
> price drops' and you can see the struggle they face.
>
> I expect that they'll need to produce a FF camera, regardless of
> profit margins, otherwise even their most die-hard proponents would
> have a hard time taking them seriously.

Funny, but I don't take them seriously for a whole 'nother reason.

> Blah, blah, blah (all said before).

Horse is dead and redead by flogging.

> I'm sure whatever they produce will be competent. Then the question
> becomes will they have the lenses to complement the increased
> resolution on a FF digital sensor? Right now there's nothing empiric
> to know how their best FF legacy lenses will work on a FF sensor. No
> doubt 'good enough' for web and smaller prints. So, following the way
> of APS-C and FF competitors, a new body will prompt many to purchase
> new, as of now, theoretical lenses.

You mean increased resolution compared to film? In any case, if legacy
lenses can withstand a K-5 sensor, they can withstand a 36MP FF
sensor, and most of them perform just fine resolution wise on the K-5.

> If that's true, then the question is, if I need new lenses to make the
> most out of the new body vs. accepting the likely limitations of
> legacy lenses, is there much difference between staying with Pentax
> and changing systems all together? Especially so, considering the
> glacial slowness at which they seem to be moving.

Blah, blah, blah. Look Tom, you ALWAYS need new lenses; stop trying to
justify your habit to us, we're friends, we know the pain.

> I'm not anti-Pentax, simply pro-reality,

MARK!

> wanting what I want in this
> lifetime and as far this side of the finish line as possible.

I wonder which one of us will have to wait longer, and which one of us
will have the most time before the finish line...

Here's to optimism!


   —M.

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[John Sessoms]

From: Tom C


I'm sure whatever they produce will be competent. Then the question
becomes will they have the lenses to complement the increased
resolution on a FF digital sensor? Right now there's nothing empiric
to know how their best FF legacy lenses will work on a FF sensor. No
doubt 'good enough' for web and smaller prints. So, following the way
of APS-C and FF competitors, a new body will prompt many to purchase
new, as of now, theoretical lenses.

If that's true, then the question is, if I need new lenses to make the
most out of the new body vs. accepting the likely limitations of
legacy lenses, is there much difference between staying with Pentax
and changing systems all together? Especially so, considering the
glacial slowness at which they seem to be moving.

I'm not anti-Pentax, simply pro-reality, wanting what I want in this
lifetime and as far this side of the finish line as possible.


They've taken too long already, but my patience is not quite yet come to 
the end. IF Pentax brings a FF body to market within a reasonable time 
frame, there is the advantage of being able to use legacy lenses until 
better lenses become available/affordable. That's on the "pro" side of 
the equation.


On the "con" side is the question of how long it's going to take Pentax 
to get off the dime. A promise that they will announce a Full Frame 
camera by 2014 is not enough.



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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Tom C]

> From: John Sessoms 
>
> From: Larry Colen
>> On Feb 3, 2013, at 10:17 AM, John Sessoms wrote:
>>
>>> From: David J Brooks
>>>
 On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:00 AM, David Savage
  wrote:
> G'day All,
>
> Just popping back in to PDML land to see whats up.
>
> Anything new happening? A new FF Pentax on the horizon (with
> hat sauce for Cotty).

 Apparently Pentax Forums is reporting a leaked memo that there is
 one in the works. But the source. I myself am still eying
 the D600 at the moment

 Dave
>>>
>>> I've been looking at it too. It doesn't have a couple of things
>>> Pentax does that I'd like to keep, but Pentax needs to move ahead
>>> expeditiously toward getting a full frame body to market.
>>
>>
>> There are a couple of problems with the D600.  First of all it seems
>> that for about the first 3,000 shutter actuations it splatters
>> something onto the sensor that needs to be cleaned off.  It also
>> falls down in low light focus.  In an informal test with similar
>> lenses it was unable to lock focus on a scene that my K-5 was.
>>
>> But, damn!  If I had a couple thousand dollars burning  a hole in my
>> pocket, I'd be very tempted.
>
> That's kind of where I am right now. I think Pentax should be able to
> deliver a camera with all the good things the D600 has PLUS the good
> things the K-5 is able to do at a competitive price.
>
> The D600 only looks attractive to the extent I can't get the full-frame
> DSLR I want from Pentax.
>
> I don't expect to buy a D600. But if Pentax doesn't get off the dime, I
> expect I will be buying whatever camera Nikon brings out to replace the
> D600.

It's hard to be competitive when producing in the low volumes Pentax
does. Most everybody wants a bargain and Pentax is viewed by many as
the bargain brand, yet Pentax's per unit costs must trend higher than
competitors because their volume is a mere fraction of, for example
Nikon. That means per unit profit will tend to be lower. Add to that
the aforementioned tendency of many Pentax users to 'wait until the
price drops' and you can see the struggle they face.

I expect that they'll need to produce a FF camera, regardless of
profit margins, otherwise even their most die-hard proponents would
have a hard time taking them seriously.

Blah, blah, blah (all said before).

I'm sure whatever they produce will be competent. Then the question
becomes will they have the lenses to complement the increased
resolution on a FF digital sensor? Right now there's nothing empiric
to know how their best FF legacy lenses will work on a FF sensor. No
doubt 'good enough' for web and smaller prints. So, following the way
of APS-C and FF competitors, a new body will prompt many to purchase
new, as of now, theoretical lenses.

If that's true, then the question is, if I need new lenses to make the
most out of the new body vs. accepting the likely limitations of
legacy lenses, is there much difference between staying with Pentax
and changing systems all together? Especially so, considering the
glacial slowness at which they seem to be moving.

I'm not anti-Pentax, simply pro-reality, wanting what I want in this
lifetime and as far this side of the finish line as possible.

Tom C.

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[John Sessoms]

If so, I suggest it should happen during a grand gathering of the PDML 
at Grandfather Mountain & duly documented for the sake of future 
generations of Pentaxians.


From: Miserere


This might finally be the hat-eating moment we've all been waiting for :-)

Cheers,

?M.

\/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com

http://EnticingTheLight.com
A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment

On 3 February 2013 15:36, Dario Bonazza  wrote:

Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 3/2/13, Miserere, discombobulated, unleashed:

>This might finally be the hat-eating moment we've all been waiting for  :-)

I really hope it is, but can't see it being offered for sale before
2014. If the functionality is suitable, I will be considering it.

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Steve Cottrell]

On 3/2/13, Dario Bonazza, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Official confirmation:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo

The bloke on the right looks like he's sat on a 60-250.

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Zos Xavius]

It almost sounds like an apology for taking so long.

Dario Bonazza  wrote:

>Given the smoky way they usually speak about their plans, I'd take that
>as 
>quite a solid confirmation.
>
>Dario
>
>-Messaggio originale- 
>From: John Sessoms
>Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:17 PM
>To: pdml@pdml.net
>Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen
>
>From: "Dario Bonazza"
>
>> Official confirmation:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo
>
>"At this point to be honest", that's about as wishy-washy a
>"confirmation" as I've ever heard.


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Dario Bonazza]

Given the smoky way they usually speak about their plans, I'd take that as 
quite a solid confirmation.


Dario

-Messaggio originale- 
From: John Sessoms

Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:17 PM
To: pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

From: "Dario Bonazza"


Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo


"At this point to be honest", that's about as wishy-washy a
"confirmation" as I've ever heard.

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[John Sessoms]

From: "Dario Bonazza"


Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo


"At this point to be honest", that's about as wishy-washy a 
"confirmation" as I've ever heard.


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Miserere]

This might finally be the hat-eating moment we've all been waiting for  :-)

Cheers,

   —M.

\/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com

http://EnticingTheLight.com
A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment



On 3 February 2013 15:36, Dario Bonazza  wrote:
> Official confirmation:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo
>
>
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Paul Stenquist]

Paul via phone

On Feb 3, 2013, at 6:31 PM, Rob Studdert  wrote:

> On 4 February 2013 08:42, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
>> Let me think...no.
> 
> They should, Nikon managed to provide significant backwards
> compatibility on their top end bodies as far as I'm aware.
> 
> I just hope Sigma come to the party, I would like the 120-300/2.8 but
> I don't want to have to buy a Nikon to own it.
> 
I'd like that lens as well. It would work well for much of my work.

Paul
> -- 
> Rob Studdert (Digital  Image Studio)
> Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours
> Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio
> 
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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Rob Studdert]

On 4 February 2013 08:42, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> Let me think...no.

They should, Nikon managed to provide significant backwards
compatibility on their top end bodies as far as I'm aware.

I just hope Sigma come to the party, I would like the 120-300/2.8 but
I don't want to have to buy a Nikon to own it.

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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Paul Stenquist]

Let me think...no.

Paul via phone

On Feb 3, 2013, at 4:31 PM,  wrote:

> The question regarding legacy lenses is, are they going to engineer the
> mechanical controls for M type lens and integrate the electronic camera
> controls that allow aperture control without operator intervention i.e. the
> green button to set the meter  on the K-10 cameras? 
> Jonathan Ayers
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of George Sinos
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 12:57 PM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen
> 
> It will be interesting to see if they announce a FF lens roadmap at the same
> time as an announcement of a FF camera body.  One of the nice things about
> the Current aps-c line is the very nice set of available lenses designed
> specifically for the crop format.
> 
> They'll need to move pretty fast.  Not many people are going to invest in a
> body that only has a few current lenses available.
> 
> I know, there are a bunch of old lenses on the used market that will provide
> limited functions.  That's a nice addition to a list of current offerings.
> But you need to have at least a minimal catalog of two or three zooms to
> draw a big enough consumer base to matter.
> 
> I'm sure they can partner with tamron, tokina or some third party lens maker
> to re-badge enough lenses to get them quickly up to speed.
> 
> gs
> George Sinos
> 
> gsi...@gmail.com
> www.georgesphotos.net
> plus.georgesinos.com
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Dario Bonazza 
> wrote:
>> Official confirmation:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo
>> 
>> 
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> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6074 - Release Date: 02/01/13
> 
> 
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RE: Pentax FF is going to happen

[mail1]

The question regarding legacy lenses is, are they going to engineer the
mechanical controls for M type lens and integrate the electronic camera
controls that allow aperture control without operator intervention i.e. the
green button to set the meter  on the K-10 cameras? 
Jonathan Ayers

-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of George Sinos
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 12:57 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

It will be interesting to see if they announce a FF lens roadmap at the same
time as an announcement of a FF camera body.  One of the nice things about
the Current aps-c line is the very nice set of available lenses designed
specifically for the crop format.

They'll need to move pretty fast.  Not many people are going to invest in a
body that only has a few current lenses available.

I know, there are a bunch of old lenses on the used market that will provide
limited functions.  That's a nice addition to a list of current offerings.
But you need to have at least a minimal catalog of two or three zooms to
draw a big enough consumer base to matter.

I'm sure they can partner with tamron, tokina or some third party lens maker
to re-badge enough lenses to get them quickly up to speed.

gs
George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net
plus.georgesinos.com


On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Dario Bonazza 
wrote:
> Official confirmation:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo
>
>
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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> follow the directions.

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Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6074 - Release Date: 02/01/13


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Dario Bonazza]

Tokina people already undisclosed they are discussing developing new lenses 
for Pentax.

http://www.pentaxforums.com/news/tokina-confirms-pentax-full-frame-under-development.html

-Messaggio originale- 
From: George Sinos

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 9:57 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

It will be interesting to see if they announce a FF lens roadmap at
the same time as an announcement of a FF camera body.  One of the nice
things about the Current aps-c line is the very nice set of available
lenses designed specifically for the crop format.

They'll need to move pretty fast.  Not many people are going to invest
in a body that only has a few current lenses available.

I know, there are a bunch of old lenses on the used market that will
provide limited functions.  That's a nice addition to a list of
current offerings.  But you need to have at least a minimal catalog of
two or three zooms to draw a big enough consumer base to matter.

I'm sure they can partner with tamron, tokina or some third party lens
maker to re-badge enough lenses to get them quickly up to speed.

gs
George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net
plus.georgesinos.com


On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Dario Bonazza 
wrote:

Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[Dario Bonazza]

Tokina people already undisclosed they are developing new lenses for Pentax.
http://www.pentaxforums.com/news/tokina-confirms-pentax-full-frame-under-development.html

-Messaggio originale- 
From: George Sinos

Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 9:57 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

It will be interesting to see if they announce a FF lens roadmap at
the same time as an announcement of a FF camera body.  One of the nice
things about the Current aps-c line is the very nice set of available
lenses designed specifically for the crop format.

They'll need to move pretty fast.  Not many people are going to invest
in a body that only has a few current lenses available.

I know, there are a bunch of old lenses on the used market that will
provide limited functions.  That's a nice addition to a list of
current offerings.  But you need to have at least a minimal catalog of
two or three zooms to draw a big enough consumer base to matter.

I'm sure they can partner with tamron, tokina or some third party lens
maker to re-badge enough lenses to get them quickly up to speed.

gs
George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net
plus.georgesinos.com


On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Dario Bonazza  
wrote:

Official confirmation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo


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Re: Pentax FF is going to happen

[George Sinos]

It will be interesting to see if they announce a FF lens roadmap at
the same time as an announcement of a FF camera body.  One of the nice
things about the Current aps-c line is the very nice set of available
lenses designed specifically for the crop format.

They'll need to move pretty fast.  Not many people are going to invest
in a body that only has a few current lenses available.

I know, there are a bunch of old lenses on the used market that will
provide limited functions.  That's a nice addition to a list of
current offerings.  But you need to have at least a minimal catalog of
two or three zooms to draw a big enough consumer base to matter.

I'm sure they can partner with tamron, tokina or some third party lens
maker to re-badge enough lenses to get them quickly up to speed.

gs
George Sinos

gsi...@gmail.com
www.georgesphotos.net
plus.georgesinos.com


On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Dario Bonazza  wrote:
> Official confirmation:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQk4ZkYVzVo
>
>
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Re: Pentax FF

[Steven Desjardins]

Now that you mention it, I have far more FA than DA lenses.  Of
course, i wouldn't spend $2500 on any camera.

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 12:02 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> From: Tom C
>
>
>>> John Sessoms wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, if they end up making a profit off the Q and the K-01, I don't
>>> suppose it's a waste of money, although neither of them fits my needs.
>>>
>>> I've been sort of aiming towards the "K-3" being my next Pentax camera,
>>> whether it's FF or not. I'm not willing to pay $3K for another APS-C
>>> body, but I would for full frame. It would hurt, but I'd do it.
>>
>> At that point I'd just sell all my Pentax gear, buy a D800/E and start
>> over. Watch everyone complain if/when there's a Pentax FF that now all
>> the money they spent on the APS-C lenses reduces the resolution when
>> put on a FF body. Many will have to buy new lenses, so at that point,
>> why Pentax?
>>
>> Pentax has taken too long for me to conceivably buy into a FF system
>> from them. Even a $2000 body at 24MP would make me think long and hard
>> on spending on Pentax vs. taking my business elsewhere.
>
>
> Yeah, a big investment in APS-C lenses would be a problem, but mostly I've
> been getting by using film lenses. The only APS-C lenses I have are the
> 18-55 kit lens that came with the K-20D & a couple of Sigmas (30mm f/1.4 &
> 10-20 zoom).
>
>
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Re: Pentax FF

[John Sessoms]

From: Tom C


John Sessoms wrote:

Well, if they end up making a profit off the Q and the K-01, I don't
suppose it's a waste of money, although neither of them fits my needs.

I've been sort of aiming towards the "K-3" being my next Pentax camera,
whether it's FF or not. I'm not willing to pay $3K for another APS-C
body, but I would for full frame. It would hurt, but I'd do it.

At that point I'd just sell all my Pentax gear, buy a D800/E and start
over. Watch everyone complain if/when there's a Pentax FF that now all
the money they spent on the APS-C lenses reduces the resolution when
put on a FF body. Many will have to buy new lenses, so at that point,
why Pentax?

Pentax has taken too long for me to conceivably buy into a FF system
from them. Even a $2000 body at 24MP would make me think long and hard
on spending on Pentax vs. taking my business elsewhere.


Yeah, a big investment in APS-C lenses would be a problem, but mostly 
I've been getting by using film lenses. The only APS-C lenses I have are 
the 18-55 kit lens that came with the K-20D & a couple of Sigmas (30mm 
f/1.4 & 10-20 zoom).


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Re: Pentax FF

[Miserere]

On 4 April 2012 18:18, Tom C  wrote:
>> John Sessoms wrote:
>>
>> Well, if they end up making a profit off the Q and the K-01, I don't
>> suppose it's a waste of money, although neither of them fits my needs.
>>
>> I've been sort of aiming towards the "K-3" being my next Pentax camera,
>> whether it's FF or not. I'm not willing to pay $3K for another APS-C
>> body, but I would for full frame. It would hurt, but I'd do it.
>
> At that point I'd just sell all my Pentax gear, buy a D800/E and start
> over. Watch everyone complain if/when there's a Pentax FF that now all
> the money they spent on the APS-C lenses reduces the resolution when
> put on a FF body. Many will have to buy new lenses, so at that point,
> why Pentax?
>
> Pentax has taken too long for me to conceivably buy into a FF system
> from them. Even a $2000 body at 24MP would make me think long and hard
> on spending on Pentax vs. taking my business elsewhere.
>
> Tom C.

That's also a good point. Pentax bet hard on APS-C where other brands
(cough Canikon cough) concentrated on FF lenses even though the bulk
of their earnings came from APS-C cameras. This will make it harder
for Pentax to jump to FF.


   —M.

\/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com

http://EnticingTheLight.com
A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment

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Re: Pentax FF

[Tom C]

> John Sessoms wrote:
>
> Well, if they end up making a profit off the Q and the K-01, I don't
> suppose it's a waste of money, although neither of them fits my needs.
>
> I've been sort of aiming towards the "K-3" being my next Pentax camera,
> whether it's FF or not. I'm not willing to pay $3K for another APS-C
> body, but I would for full frame. It would hurt, but I'd do it.

At that point I'd just sell all my Pentax gear, buy a D800/E and start
over. Watch everyone complain if/when there's a Pentax FF that now all
the money they spent on the APS-C lenses reduces the resolution when
put on a FF body. Many will have to buy new lenses, so at that point,
why Pentax?

Pentax has taken too long for me to conceivably buy into a FF system
from them. Even a $2000 body at 24MP would make me think long and hard
on spending on Pentax vs. taking my business elsewhere.

Tom C.

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Re: Pentax FF

[John Sessoms]

From: Miserere


On 3 April 2012 15:26, John Sessoms  wrote:

From: Cotty



On 1/4/12, John Sessoms, discombobulated, unleashed:


*Posted on 04-01-2012*


https://www.pentaxforums.com/news/pentax-k-3-announced.html

ASSHOLES!


Not only that, but full frame assholes, John.


I would buy that camera if it were real. I think just about every Pentax
shooter in the world would buy one. I would even borrow money to buy a
*second one* for backup.

My anger is for them jerking my chain; tantalizing me with something I can't
have.

John,

I don't think "just about every Pentax shooter in the world would buy
one". To a first approximation, I'd say nobody would buy one (meaning
the number of people buying a FF compared to those buying APS-C would
be minuscule).

I don't think this because I don't believe there are enough people who
want a FF, but rather because there aren't enough people willing to
BUY a FF. The feeling I get at PF from those wanting FF is that Pentax
would price it at around $2k, but I really don't think that would be
the case, certainly not when they priced the K-5 at $1,600, and god
knows what they're going to price the K-3 (the real one) at, now that
they've hiked lens prices too.

Sony's FF foray should be a lesson regarding how a great camera at a
great price (I'm thinking the A850 here) can still fail. As far as I
know, Sony lost money on every FF they sold. Mark will tell you what a
wonderful camera the A850 was, and at $2,000 it was a bargain...and
yet few people bought it.

Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
(us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.

Pentax doesn't see it either or otherwise they would've released a FF.
For god's sakes, they even saw the potential to make money from the
645D, so imagine how bad it must be for them to NOT release a FF.

That said, if they didn't waste money on stuff like the Q and K-01,
maybe they'd have some funds left over for a FF line of lenses and a
camera.

Start praying to the Ricoh gods, as they are the only ones that can do
something about your FF.

Cheers,


   ?M.


Well, if they end up making a profit off the Q and the K-01, I don't 
suppose it's a waste of money, although neither of them fits my needs.


I've been sort of aiming towards the "K-3" being my next Pentax camera, 
whether it's FF or not. I'm not willing to pay $3K for another APS-C 
body, but I would for full frame. It would hurt, but I'd do it.


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Re: Pentax FF

[Christine Nielsen]

Haha!  Thanks for having my back, Christine!

And don't you worry --  I can roll, Chicago-style, any day of the
week.  You just let me know when... and I'll bring my credit cards.
Meet you on Michigan Ave!

:)
-c


On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:35 AM, Christine Aguila  wrote:
> Hey, Miserere, that's my little sister, you're talkin about.  Any more of 
> that cheapskate p-tooey and we're gonna have to settle this the old fashioned 
> Chicago-way!  Got that?  :-)))  Cheers, Big sister Christine from Chicago
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:11 PM, Christine Nielsen wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Miserere  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
>>> her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
>>> Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
>>> only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
>>> spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
>>> (us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.
>>
>> Hang on -- how did I get to be the posterchild for Pentax Tightwads?!
>> :) Just to clarify -- my doubts about that lens have more to do with
>> its spotty reputation... deserved or not... and its unseemly zoom
>> behavior.  I happily spent at least as much on the 50-135, and know
>> what a bargain it is, compared to the (FF) equivalents of the other
>> brands.  I won't detail the rest of my gear purchases, but believe me,
>> I'm down with spending.
>>
>> But cheapskate or no, 800 bucks is 800 bucks.  If I'm not convinced I
>> want the product, I'm not going to spend it.  As it is, each time I
>> think about buying a new lens (or body), I go through the motions of
>> convincing myself that Pentax & I are in it for the long haul. They're
>> putting out lots of mixed signals, for sure.
>>
>> I would be very interested to know just who the core Pentax userbase
>> really is, btw.  Obviously, the samples here and at PF must be small
>> in comparison to the general population... and I wonder how different
>> the demographic is here in the US vs. Europe vs Japan, for ex?
>>
>> :)
>> -c
>>
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>> follow the directions.
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Re: Pentax FF

[P. J. Alling]

And we'll have another bloated camera body with undersized sensor.  
Pentax needs to put a 60mp sensor into the 645 to compete in it's market 
segment not make a K mount camera bigger than a Canon.


On 4/3/2012 6:19 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
It'd be easier to put a 24x36 sensor into a 645D body, and call it the 
643D.  It might even be possible to redesign it with a shorter 
registration distance (and smaller mirror) so you can use K-mount lenses.



On 4/3/2012 2:54 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:

Drop the in body SR and the pop up flash and I'll bet it could be done.

On 4/2/2012 4:03 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: Steven Desjardins


A question to the more engineering oriented ones on the list. How
hard would it be for Pentax to stick a FF sensor in something like a
K5 body?


Ball peen hammer, hydraulic press, some duct tape or super glue ... no
problem; oughta' fit right in there.









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lengthily search.


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Re: Pentax FF

[Christine Nielsen]

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Miserere  wrote:


> Sorry Christine, I had just read your post about the 16-50 you never
> purchased so you were the first that came to mind. I also know that
> you don't rush into lens purchases, and you seem to be the middle
> ground of Pentax users that I've interacted with over the past 5 years
> or so.
>
> My comments were not meant as an insult, because I am even more of a
> tightwad than you! Oops, sorry, I think I meant "cheapskate"  :-)

No worries, no offense taken!  Just having a few (cheap) laughs...

:)
-c

>
>
>   —M.
>
>    \/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com
>
>    http://EnticingTheLight.com
>    A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment
>
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Re: Pentax FF

[Mark Roberts]

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Miserere  wrote:

> Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
> her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
> Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
> only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
> spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
> (us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.

All of this presumes that Pentax has no interest in expanding its
market *beyond* the current "tight bastards" userbase. I think they
should, and with the Ricoh brand now able to cover they low end of the
market for them I expect they will.
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Pentax FF

[Cotty]

On 4/4/12, Subash, discombobulated, unleashed:

>we do Cotty but what's an excited chap to do when the fingers outrun
>the mind? :)

I know that feeling only too well!

--


Cheers,
  Cotty


___/\__
||   (O)  | People, Places, Pastiche
--  http://www.cottysnaps.com
_



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Re: Pentax FF

[Cotty]

On 3/4/12, Larry Colen, discombobulated, unleashed:

>It'd be easier to put a 24x36 sensor into a 645D body, and call it the
>643D.  It might even be possible to redesign it with a shorter
>registration distance (and smaller mirror) so you can use K-mount lenses.

That's a brilliant idea Lar!

And then just design it like this:



:)

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Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: Pentax FF

[mike wilson]

On 04/04/2012 00:42, Miserere wrote:

On 3 April 2012 15:26, John Sessoms  wrote:

From: Cotty



On 1/4/12, John Sessoms, discombobulated, unleashed:


*Posted on 04-01-2012*


https://www.pentaxforums.com/news/pentax-k-3-announced.html


ASSHOLES!



Not only that, but full frame assholes, John.



I would buy that camera if it were real. I think just about every Pentax
shooter in the world would buy one. I would even borrow money to buy a
*second one* for backup.

My anger is for them jerking my chain; tantalizing me with something I can't
have.


John,

I don't think "just about every Pentax shooter in the world would buy
one". To a first approximation, I'd say nobody would buy one (meaning
the number of people buying a FF compared to those buying APS-C would
be minuscule).

I don't think this because I don't believe there are enough people who
want a FF, but rather because there aren't enough people willing to
BUY a FF. The feeling I get at PF from those wanting FF is that Pentax
would price it at around $2k, but I really don't think that would be
the case, certainly not when they priced the K-5 at $1,600, and god
knows what they're going to price the K-3 (the real one) at, now that
they've hiked lens prices too.

Sony's FF foray should be a lesson regarding how a great camera at a
great price (I'm thinking the A850 here) can still fail. As far as I
know, Sony lost money on every FF they sold. Mark will tell you what a
wonderful camera the A850 was, and at $2,000 it was a bargain...and
yet few people bought it.

Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
(us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.

Pentax doesn't see it either or otherwise they would've released a FF.
For god's sakes, they even saw the potential to make money from the
645D, so imagine how bad it must be for them to NOT release a FF.

That said, if they didn't waste money on stuff like the Q and K-01,
maybe they'd have some funds left over for a FF line of lenses and a
camera.

Start praying to the Ricoh gods, as they are the only ones that can do
something about your FF.

Cheers,


—M.

 \/\/o/\/\ -->  http://WorldOfMiserere.com

 http://EnticingTheLight.com
 A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment




--
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Re: Pentax FF

[Christine Aguila]

Hey, Miserere, that's my little sister, you're talkin about.  Any more of that 
cheapskate p-tooey and we're gonna have to settle this the old fashioned 
Chicago-way!  Got that?  :-)))  Cheers, Big sister Christine from Chicago






On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:11 PM, Christine Nielsen wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Miserere  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
>> her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
>> Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
>> only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
>> spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
>> (us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.
> 
> Hang on -- how did I get to be the posterchild for Pentax Tightwads?!
> :) Just to clarify -- my doubts about that lens have more to do with
> its spotty reputation... deserved or not... and its unseemly zoom
> behavior.  I happily spent at least as much on the 50-135, and know
> what a bargain it is, compared to the (FF) equivalents of the other
> brands.  I won't detail the rest of my gear purchases, but believe me,
> I'm down with spending.
> 
> But cheapskate or no, 800 bucks is 800 bucks.  If I'm not convinced I
> want the product, I'm not going to spend it.  As it is, each time I
> think about buying a new lens (or body), I go through the motions of
> convincing myself that Pentax & I are in it for the long haul. They're
> putting out lots of mixed signals, for sure.
> 
> I would be very interested to know just who the core Pentax userbase
> really is, btw.  Obviously, the samples here and at PF must be small
> in comparison to the general population... and I wonder how different
> the demographic is here in the US vs. Europe vs Japan, for ex?
> 
> :)
> -c
> 
> -- 
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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Re: Pentax FF

[Miserere]

On 3 April 2012 20:11, Christine Nielsen  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Miserere  wrote:
>
>>
>> Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
>> her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
>> Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
>> only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
>> spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
>> (us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.
>
> Hang on -- how did I get to be the posterchild for Pentax Tightwads?!
> :) Just to clarify -- my doubts about that lens have more to do with
> its spotty reputation... deserved or not... and its unseemly zoom
> behavior.  I happily spent at least as much on the 50-135, and know
> what a bargain it is, compared to the (FF) equivalents of the other
> brands.  I won't detail the rest of my gear purchases, but believe me,
> I'm down with spending.
>
> But cheapskate or no, 800 bucks is 800 bucks.  If I'm not convinced I
> want the product, I'm not going to spend it.  As it is, each time I
> think about buying a new lens (or body), I go through the motions of
> convincing myself that Pentax & I are in it for the long haul. They're
> putting out lots of mixed signals, for sure.
>
> I would be very interested to know just who the core Pentax userbase
> really is, btw.  Obviously, the samples here and at PF must be small
> in comparison to the general population... and I wonder how different
> the demographic is here in the US vs. Europe vs Japan, for ex?
>
> :)
> -c

Sorry Christine, I had just read your post about the 16-50 you never
purchased so you were the first that came to mind. I also know that
you don't rush into lens purchases, and you seem to be the middle
ground of Pentax users that I've interacted with over the past 5 years
or so.

My comments were not meant as an insult, because I am even more of a
tightwad than you! Oops, sorry, I think I meant "cheapskate"  :-)


   —M.

\/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com

http://EnticingTheLight.com
A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment

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Re: Pentax FF

[Larry Colen]

On 4/3/2012 7:12 PM, Steven Desjardins wrote:

I think of you as more of cheapskate than a tightwad, Christine.  Just
for the record.


I expect to read this line again come December or January.



--
Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est)

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Re: Pentax FF

[Steven Desjardins]

I think of you as more of cheapskate than a tightwad, Christine.  Just
for the record.

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:11 PM, Christine Nielsen  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Miserere  wrote:
>
>>
>> Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
>> her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
>> Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
>> only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
>> spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
>> (us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.
>
> Hang on -- how did I get to be the posterchild for Pentax Tightwads?!
> :) Just to clarify -- my doubts about that lens have more to do with
> its spotty reputation... deserved or not... and its unseemly zoom
> behavior.  I happily spent at least as much on the 50-135, and know
> what a bargain it is, compared to the (FF) equivalents of the other
> brands.  I won't detail the rest of my gear purchases, but believe me,
> I'm down with spending.
>
> But cheapskate or no, 800 bucks is 800 bucks.  If I'm not convinced I
> want the product, I'm not going to spend it.  As it is, each time I
> think about buying a new lens (or body), I go through the motions of
> convincing myself that Pentax & I are in it for the long haul. They're
> putting out lots of mixed signals, for sure.
>
> I would be very interested to know just who the core Pentax userbase
> really is, btw.  Obviously, the samples here and at PF must be small
> in comparison to the general population... and I wonder how different
> the demographic is here in the US vs. Europe vs Japan, for ex?
>
> :)
> -c
>
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> the directions.



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Re: Pentax FF

[Subash]

On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 19:07:40 +0100
Cotty  wrote:

> Subash dear chap. Don't you guys play tricks on each other in
> India ;-)

we do Cotty but what's an excited chap to do when the fingers outrun
the mind? :)

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Re: Pentax FF

[Matthew Hunt]

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:11 PM, Christine Nielsen  wrote:

> I would be very interested to know just who the core Pentax userbase
> really is, btw.  Obviously, the samples here and at PF must be small
> in comparison to the general population...

I thought we were everyone.

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Re: Pentax FF

[Christine Nielsen]

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Miserere  wrote:

>
> Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
> her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
> Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
> only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
> spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
> (us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.

Hang on -- how did I get to be the posterchild for Pentax Tightwads?!
:) Just to clarify -- my doubts about that lens have more to do with
its spotty reputation... deserved or not... and its unseemly zoom
behavior.  I happily spent at least as much on the 50-135, and know
what a bargain it is, compared to the (FF) equivalents of the other
brands.  I won't detail the rest of my gear purchases, but believe me,
I'm down with spending.

But cheapskate or no, 800 bucks is 800 bucks.  If I'm not convinced I
want the product, I'm not going to spend it.  As it is, each time I
think about buying a new lens (or body), I go through the motions of
convincing myself that Pentax & I are in it for the long haul. They're
putting out lots of mixed signals, for sure.

I would be very interested to know just who the core Pentax userbase
really is, btw.  Obviously, the samples here and at PF must be small
in comparison to the general population... and I wonder how different
the demographic is here in the US vs. Europe vs Japan, for ex?

:)
-c

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Re: Pentax FF

[Miserere]

On 3 April 2012 15:26, John Sessoms  wrote:
> From: Cotty
>
>
>> On 1/4/12, John Sessoms, discombobulated, unleashed:
>>
>>> *Posted on 04-01-2012*
>>>
 https://www.pentaxforums.com/news/pentax-k-3-announced.html
>>>
>>> ASSHOLES!
>>
>>
>> Not only that, but full frame assholes, John.
>
>
> I would buy that camera if it were real. I think just about every Pentax
> shooter in the world would buy one. I would even borrow money to buy a
> *second one* for backup.
>
> My anger is for them jerking my chain; tantalizing me with something I can't
> have.

John,

I don't think "just about every Pentax shooter in the world would buy
one". To a first approximation, I'd say nobody would buy one (meaning
the number of people buying a FF compared to those buying APS-C would
be minuscule).

I don't think this because I don't believe there are enough people who
want a FF, but rather because there aren't enough people willing to
BUY a FF. The feeling I get at PF from those wanting FF is that Pentax
would price it at around $2k, but I really don't think that would be
the case, certainly not when they priced the K-5 at $1,600, and god
knows what they're going to price the K-3 (the real one) at, now that
they've hiked lens prices too.

Sony's FF foray should be a lesson regarding how a great camera at a
great price (I'm thinking the A850 here) can still fail. As far as I
know, Sony lost money on every FF they sold. Mark will tell you what a
wonderful camera the A850 was, and at $2,000 it was a bargain...and
yet few people bought it.

Christine was complaining that the DA* 16-50mm was too expensive for
her when it cost $800, which is a bargain when you consider what
Canikonians pay for the standard f/2.8 zooms, and she's far from the
only one. The core Pentax userbase is a bunch of tight bastards who
spend money only at gun-point (I'm one of them) and I don't see them
(us) buying a $3,000 FF from Pentax.

Pentax doesn't see it either or otherwise they would've released a FF.
For god's sakes, they even saw the potential to make money from the
645D, so imagine how bad it must be for them to NOT release a FF.

That said, if they didn't waste money on stuff like the Q and K-01,
maybe they'd have some funds left over for a FF line of lenses and a
camera.

Start praying to the Ricoh gods, as they are the only ones that can do
something about your FF.

Cheers,


   —M.

\/\/o/\/\ --> http://WorldOfMiserere.com

http://EnticingTheLight.com
A Quest for Photographic Enlightenment

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Re: Pentax FF

[Larry Colen]

It'd be easier to put a 24x36 sensor into a 645D body, and call it the 
643D.  It might even be possible to redesign it with a shorter 
registration distance (and smaller mirror) so you can use K-mount lenses.



On 4/3/2012 2:54 PM, P. J. Alling wrote:

Drop the in body SR and the pop up flash and I'll bet it could be done.

On 4/2/2012 4:03 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: Steven Desjardins


A question to the more engineering oriented ones on the list. How
hard would it be for Pentax to stick a FF sensor in something like a
K5 body?


Ball peen hammer, hydraulic press, some duct tape or super glue ... no
problem; oughta' fit right in there.






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Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (from dos4est)

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Re: Pentax FF

[P. J. Alling]

Drop the in body SR and the pop up flash and I'll bet it could be done.

On 4/2/2012 4:03 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

From: Steven Desjardins


A question to the more engineering oriented ones on the list.  How
hard would it be for Pentax to stick a FF sensor in something like a
K5 body?


Ball peen hammer, hydraulic press, some duct tape or super glue ... no 
problem; oughta' fit right in there.





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Don't lose heart!  They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a 
lengthily search.


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