Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
In an attempt to steer the bull back onto the righteous path of Pentax talk... I saw another comparison a few weeks ago: http://falklumo.blogspot.com/2009/06/comparative-noise-study-k-7-vs-k20d.html and was surprised that Falk concluded the K20D had slightly better high ISO noise. I say surprised because I looked at the images he posted and I concluded that I liked the K-7's performance better. Looking at Max's pics Joe linked to, I find the K-7 shows better control of the luminance noise at the expense of chroma noise. So better details for the K-7 at the expense of magenta blotches. Does the K-7 have adjustable NR? I seem to remember it did. If so, then there is probably a setting (mid or high NR) on the K-7 that will give you images like those out of the K20D. As somebody who does a lot of BW, I always want higher resolution at high ISOs rather than controlled chroma noise that kills details (like I've seen on the Nikon D80 at high NR). But back to the comparison; Like Jostein, I also see the K20D shots are underexposed compared to the K-7. If all exposure values on-camera were equal, this means the K-7 boosts the signal more than the K20D. I would like to say this means it converts photons to electrons more efficiently, but I don't think the chroma noise would support this hypothesis. Another concern is that these images show different behaviour in the K-7 when compared to those by Falk (in the link I posted above). The chroma noise is much better controlled in Falk's camera, and while his K-7 also exposes a bit brighter than the K20D, the difference is much less than in Max's test. Anyone care to comment whether they see the same I do? But more importantly: Do we really care? After all, the K-7 is new and cool, and chicks dig it. That's why we all got into photography, right? :-) --M. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.EnticingTheLight.com -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 2009/7/25 William Robb war...@gmail.com: - Original Message - From: Joseph Tainter Subject: Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons Unfortunately, the current first place team is the Yankees. I suppose I should be grateful that this stayed on topic for a few posts. Ya think? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Misereremiser...@gmail.com wrote: Does the K-7 have adjustable NR? I seem to remember it did. If so, then there is probably a setting (mid or high NR) on the K-7 that will give you images like those out of the K20D. Yep :) Noise Reduction in High Iso: None, Light, Medium, Strong Noise Reduction High Iso Kick-in (translated from French): 200 / 400 / 800 / 1600 Long Exposure Noise Reduction (Dark Frame Substraction?): Yes / No As somebody who does a lot of BW, I always want higher resolution at high ISOs rather than controlled chroma noise that kills details (like I've seen on the Nikon D80 at high NR). Indeed. I suspect that 'Strong Noise Reduction' in Pentax Language somehow means Medium or Light in Canikon Language. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- Photo: K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... Thinkpad: X23+UB,X60+UB Programing: D7 user (trying out D2007) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
On 24/07/2009, Joseph Tainter jtain...@mindspring.com wrote: This guy has posted the best controlled comparison I have seen of noise levels in the two cameras: http://www.flickr.com/photos/51031...@n00/sets/72157621362031046/ Navigate through until you get to the original size images. Pentax claimed that the K7 would have lower noise. This is clearly not so. The difference is especially apparent at ISO 3200 and 6400 (both of which I would like to use). I'm glad I haven't yet bought a K7. I may still buy one, but not for better noise. Or I may wait to see what testing shows when the K8 comes out. Some reports claim that Pentax implemented less noise reduction in RAW images from the K7, and that this accounts for its poorer noise performance. I don't know whether this is true or just BS. From what I read, the K7 is a fine camera in other respects. Joe just bear in mind too that this is a short exposure high ISO noise test, the results may be quite different at lower ambient light levels. Not that I expect that much difference, can't make a silk purse -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC +10 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
2009/7/23 Joseph Tainter jtain...@mindspring.com: Pentax claimed that the K7 would have lower noise. This is clearly not so. The difference is especially apparent at ISO 3200 and 6400 (both of which I would like to use). When I look at those images, it strikes me that the K20D pics looks slightly underexposed. I downloaded the ISO 1600 images and compared the histograms, and that only reinforced the impression. However I don't have any photo editing software on the computer I'm at today, so I can't lift the K20D image to see how comparable brightness affects the noise comparison. I suspect they will become quite similar, though. I'm glad I haven't yet bought a K-7. I may still buy one, but not for better noise. Or I may wait to see what testing shows when the K8 comes out. Some rumor mill had it that 8 was avoided because of Asian connotations about bad luck, and that K-9 was unacceptable to cat lovers. Or something. :-) Seriously, though, I personally believe the K-7 to be a sort of one-off; a test-bed for technology intended for the 645 due next year. Jostein -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
Seriously, though, I personally believe the K-7 to be a sort of one-off; a test-bed for technology intended for the 645 due next year. Jostein - Interesting. But there is some good new technology and software in the K-7, so surely Pentax would use that, and build on it, in future APS-C DSLRs? Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
Ah yes, hope springs eternal. Ask any Red Sox fan, and after almost a century... AlunFoto wrote: 2009/7/23 Joseph Tainter jtain...@mindspring.com: Pentax claimed that the K7 would have lower noise. This is clearly not so. The difference is especially apparent at ISO 3200 and 6400 (both of which I would like to use). When I look at those images, it strikes me that the K20D pics looks slightly underexposed. I downloaded the ISO 1600 images and compared the histograms, and that only reinforced the impression. However I don't have any photo editing software on the computer I'm at today, so I can't lift the K20D image to see how comparable brightness affects the noise comparison. I suspect they will become quite similar, though. I'm glad I haven't yet bought a K-7. I may still buy one, but not for better noise. Or I may wait to see what testing shows when the K8 comes out. Some rumor mill had it that 8 was avoided because of Asian connotations about bad luck, and that K-9 was unacceptable to cat lovers. Or something. :-) Seriously, though, I personally believe the K-7 to be a sort of one-off; a test-bed for technology intended for the 645 due next year. Jostein -- The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog. --G. K. Chesterton -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
Huh? They won in 2004 and 2007. Do Cub fans have any hope? -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:40 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons Ah yes, hope springs eternal. Ask any Red Sox fan, and after almost a century... AlunFoto wrote: 2009/7/23 Joseph Tainter jtain...@mindspring.com: Pentax claimed that the K7 would have lower noise. This is clearly not so. The difference is especially apparent at ISO 3200 and 6400 (both of which I would like to use). When I look at those images, it strikes me that the K20D pics looks slightly underexposed. I downloaded the ISO 1600 images and compared the histograms, and that only reinforced the impression. However I don't have any photo editing software on the computer I'm at today, so I can't lift the K20D image to see how comparable brightness affects the noise comparison. I suspect they will become quite similar, though. I'm glad I haven't yet bought a K-7. I may still buy one, but not for better noise. Or I may wait to see what testing shows when the K8 comes out. Some rumor mill had it that 8 was avoided because of Asian connotations about bad luck, and that K-9 was unacceptable to cat lovers. Or something. :-) Seriously, though, I personally believe the K-7 to be a sort of one-off; a test-bed for technology intended for the 645 due next year. Jostein -- The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog. --G. K. Chesterton -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
Kinda my point. However Pentax has only been promising a 645D for 3 or 4 years now approximately 90 left to go... Desjardins, Steve wrote: Huh? They won in 2004 and 2007. Do Cub fans have any hope? -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:40 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons Ah yes, hope springs eternal. Ask any Red Sox fan, and after almost a century... AlunFoto wrote: 2009/7/23 Joseph Tainter jtain...@mindspring.com: Pentax claimed that the K7 would have lower noise. This is clearly not so. The difference is especially apparent at ISO 3200 and 6400 (both of which I would like to use). When I look at those images, it strikes me that the K20D pics looks slightly underexposed. I downloaded the ISO 1600 images and compared the histograms, and that only reinforced the impression. However I don't have any photo editing software on the computer I'm at today, so I can't lift the K20D image to see how comparable brightness affects the noise comparison. I suspect they will become quite similar, though. I'm glad I haven't yet bought a K-7. I may still buy one, but not for better noise. Or I may wait to see what testing shows when the K8 comes out. Some rumor mill had it that 8 was avoided because of Asian connotations about bad luck, and that K-9 was unacceptable to cat lovers. Or something. :-) Seriously, though, I personally believe the K-7 to be a sort of one-off; a test-bed for technology intended for the 645 due next year. Jostein -- The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog. --G. K. Chesterton -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
You're speaking of the current First Place team? The Boston Red Sox? They're looking good for this year as well! Fingers crossed... :—) On Jul 24, 2009, at 11:58 , Desjardins, Steve wrote: Huh? They won in 2004 and 2007. Do Cub fans have any hope? -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:40 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons Ah yes, hope springs eternal. Ask any Red Sox fan, and after almost a century... Joseph McAllister Pentaxian http://gallery.me.com/jomac http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
Unfortunately, the current first place team is the Yankees. Steve Desjardins On Jul 24, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com wrote: You're speaking of the current First Place team? The Boston Red Sox? They're looking good for this year as well! Fingers crossed... : —) On Jul 24, 2009, at 11:58 , Desjardins, Steve wrote: Huh? They won in 2004 and 2007. Do Cub fans have any hope? -Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:40 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons Ah yes, hope springs eternal. Ask any Red Sox fan, and after almost a century... Joseph McAllister Pentaxian http://gallery.me.com/jomac http://web.me.com/jomac/show.me/Blog/Blog.html -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
Unfortunately, the current first place team is the Yankees. I suppose I should be grateful that this stayed on topic for a few posts. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
- Original Message - From: Joseph Tainter Subject: Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons Unfortunately, the current first place team is the Yankees. I suppose I should be grateful that this stayed on topic for a few posts. Ya think? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
There is less chroma noise IMO. When noise is there it is less annoying than the K20D it seems (it seems 'cos I do not own a K20D). I indeed prefer that kind of noise than from my K10D, clearly. -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- Photo: K10D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... Thinkpad: X23+UB,X60+UB Programing: D7 user (trying out D2007) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: K20D vs. K7 High ISO Noise Comparisons
Curiously enough I happen to know Max in person. He's really a great guy. Now to the test. I looked at ISO 1600 images and liked that of K-7 more. In the conditions similar to those of this test ISO 1600 is perfectly usable. At ISO 3200 it seems to me that K20D simply applies a bit more of NR resulting in less noise and less crispness in the image. And finally ISO 6400 seems to be more like emergency option as it is likely to be used under low light where it will be far less IQ than what Max presented. Interestingly enough, though color temperature is preset the colors are different between the two cameras... So indeed, if noise is *the issue* and one does not to bother with NR software, K20D can be a better choice. Coming from K10D, I think K-7 is good upgrade nonetheless... Boris Joseph Tainter wrote: This guy has posted the best controlled comparison I have seen of noise levels in the two cameras: http://www.flickr.com/photos/51031...@n00/sets/72157621362031046/ Navigate through until you get to the original size images. Pentax claimed that the K7 would have lower noise. This is clearly not so. The difference is especially apparent at ISO 3200 and 6400 (both of which I would like to use). I'm glad I haven't yet bought a K7. I may still buy one, but not for better noise. Or I may wait to see what testing shows when the K8 comes out. Some reports claim that Pentax implemented less noise reduction in RAW images from the K7, and that this accounts for its poorer noise performance. I don't know whether this is true or just BS. From what I read, the K7 is a fine camera in other respects. Joe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
