Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Tautology. At 09:12 AM 9/18/03 -0400, you wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:20:53 -0400, Doug Franklin wrote: But of course. There's a ... damn, what's the word ... it means something that's so self-evident as to be pointless to point out ... in there somewhere. :-) Teleology? (No) ... Rats. I hate it when I can't come up with the word. Syllogism? TTYL, DougF KG4LMZ To grasp the true meaning of socialism, imagine a world where everything is designed by the post office, even the sleaze. O'Rourke, P.J.
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Quite true but the statement referred to was more of a tautology than an axiom. At 10:43 AM 9/18/03 -0400, you wrote: tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:20:53 -0400, Doug Franklin wrote: But of course. There's a ... damn, what's the word ... it means something that's so self-evident as to be pointless to point out ... in there somewhere. :-) Teleology? (No) ... Rats. I hate it when I can't come up with the word. Syllogism? Axiom. Tautology. Nah, a tautology is an argument (in the logical sense) that's true because it's really a definition. An axiom is something that is assumed that has to be true because it's too fundamental to be broken down and explained. An axiom is a self-evident truth as in the axioms of Euclidean geometry. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com I drink to make other people interesting. -- George Jean Nathan
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
I don't want Brucie dead. I'd hate to stir up his kin. Doug Franklin wrote: Chris Brogden wrote: If you want a particular list member dead, can you at least tell them that off-list? Just put Bruce in your kill file and you won't have to listen to his misogynist (and otherwise offensive) ramblings. TTYL, DougF KG4LMZ
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Graywolf, You wrote, ... I also find it funny but not amusing that the Jews figure somehow it is everybody else in the world's fault that they didn't have the courage to fight back while they were being killed by the millions. Everybody else should have to pay for the shame that they won't even admit to them selves Who are the Jews figuring it is everybody else in the world's fault they didn't have the courage to fight back? I have never heard this from any Jew or respected historian. There is no shame of the Jews for the Holocaust. They were people who reacted like other peoples who were persecuted by the Nazis. There were others who didn't fight back: gypsies, homosexuals, Russians, Poles, French, etc. ad nauseum. (What does fight back mean - is it passive resistance or physical resistance or psychological resistance?) No one who was persecuted or murdered by the Nazis is a shameful person - whether they resisted or not. And to say millions of Jews have shame for their actions during the Holocaust is a reprehensible and/or ignorant statement. You are the only person I have heard speak of shame for the Jews during the Holocaust. Why would you think such a thing? For your information why don't you read about how some Jews did fight back. You might start by reading the books of Martin Gilbert and Raul Hilberg. There are other books on this subject, and I will be glad to furnish you titles and authors if you wish. Sincerely - John Munro
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:39:54 -0500 (Central Daylight Time), Chris Brogden wrote: If you want a particular list member dead, can you at least tell them that off-list? Just put Bruce in your kill file and you won't have to listen to his misogynist (and otherwise offensive) ramblings. TTYL, DougF KG4LMZ
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
True, maybe we can agree that wars are made by people who KNOW they have the right to overdo the revenge... DagT Fra: Bob S [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dag, I've come to think that wars, now and thru the ages, were carried out by peoples who KNEW they were right. Regards, Bob S. From: Dag T [EMAIL PROTECTED] Even my kids are starting to recognize that wars are started by overdoing the revenge. _ Need more e-mail storage? Get 10MB with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:20:53 -0400, Doug Franklin wrote: But of course. There's a ... damn, what's the word ... it means something that's so self-evident as to be pointless to point out ... in there somewhere. :-) Teleology? (No) ... Rats. I hate it when I can't come up with the word. Syllogism? TTYL, DougF KG4LMZ
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:20:53 -0400, Doug Franklin wrote: But of course. There's a ... damn, what's the word ... it means something that's so self-evident as to be pointless to point out ... in there somewhere. :-) Teleology? (No) ... Rats. I hate it when I can't come up with the word. Syllogism? Axiom. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
RE: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
-Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: Mark Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:20:53 -0400, Doug Franklin wrote: But of course. There's a ... damn, what's the word ... it means something that's so self-evident as to be pointless to point out ... in there somewhere. :-) Teleology? (No) ... Rats. I hate it when I can't come up with the word. Syllogism? Axiom. Tautology. Nah, a tautology is an argument (in the logical sense) that's true because it's really a definition. An axiom is something that is assumed that has to be true because it's too fundamental to be broken down and explained. An axiom is a self-evident truth as in the axioms of Euclidean geometry. Well, it's often used in the same sense as self-evident or obviously true in common usage. Anyway, I threw it out there becuase he was looking for a T word! tv
RE: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:17:43 -0400, tom wrote: Tautology. THAT'S THE ONE! Thanks, Tom. TTYL, DougF KG4LMZ
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Nah, that's the serious study of 18-22 year olds in jeans... keith Doug Franklin wrote: On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:17:43 -0400, tom wrote: Tautology. THAT'S THE ONE! Thanks, Tom. TTYL, DougF KG4LMZ
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Ya! Kill all the Germans they knew what was going on. Kill all the Japs they knew what was going on. Kill all the Italians they knew what was going on. Kill all the Russians they knew what was going on. Kill all the Muslims they know what is going on. Kill everyone they know what is going on. And so on, and so on ... Maybe you would have had the courage to stand up and be shot for treason by the monsters, but I doubt it. I also find it funny but not amusing that the Jews figure somehow it is everybody else in the world's fault that they didn't have the courage to fight back while they were being killed by the millions. Everybody else should have to pay for the shame that they won't even admit to them selves. There has been trillions of atrocities committed through out history. All of us should do what we can to see that more are not committed. But why blame everyone who did not have the courage to stand up to the monsters in the past for our lack of courage to stand up to them in the present? Why don't we leave the poor women to rest in peace. Like all apathetic people she probably felt that if she didn't notice it would go away. I mean she is dead already. -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Let´s face it, who would say NO if some maniac gave you unlimited resources to do what you wanted, and it didn´t hurt anyone just then. In addition this particular maniac was about to conquer the world, so you were on winning side. The rhetorics were there, but nobody, not even the US or the British understood how serious it was. Why should she? DagT På onsdag, 17. september 2003, kl. 19:07, graywolf: Why don't we leave the poor women to rest in peace. Like all apathetic people she probably felt that if she didn't notice it would go away. I mean she is dead already.
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Dag, I've come to think that wars, now and thru the ages, were carried out by peoples who KNEW they were right. Regards, Bob S. From: Dag T [EMAIL PROTECTED] Even my kids are starting to recognize that wars are started by overdoing the revenge. _ Need more e-mail storage? Get 10MB with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Hi, Tuesday, September 16, 2003, 4:19:17 PM, you wrote: I'll add one more comment. Frankly, I don't care if Reifenstahl was a Nazi or not -- her film, like all art work can stand alone, independent of the creator. Her work is so recognisable as being of that time that I don't believe you can separate the 2 and see the work as something isolated, or fail to consider Riefenstahl's position in this. She was perhaps naive when she first became involved. Maybe she thought Nazism was much the same as a great big Busby Berkeley musical, all camera angles and synchronised high-kicking. Somehow I doubt that, and I don't think you can really view them in the same way you'd look at stills from a Busby Berkeley review. And her propaganda did not significantly increase Hitler's power, the events she shot he was doing anyway. He was already a master of propaganda without her. I heard way back when in my film class that the problem was, she did her job too well. I tend to agree with that. Thus it makes it hard to see what her own stand was or might have been independent of what she produced. But like I said previously, no one else gave us a such a powerful visual record -- an insight into the times and the thinking -- as close to insider glimpse of a turbulent and very strange time in history as we are likely to ever have. We'd be poorer, much poorer, without it. It is certainly a powerful record, and I appreciate it as much as anybody, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking it's an inser's view. If she was an insider then she must take her share of the responsibility for events. She claimed she was not an insider. Her pictures and movies are not in any way fly-on-the-wall stuff; they are all rehearsed and cannot possibly be treated as documentary in any modern sense of the word, so I don't see what glimpse we are getting of this time. Where is the insight in her photographs films? They are extremely shallow. She saw only the surface of things. Look at what she has influenced: advertisements for Calvin Klein; James Bond films; Annie Leibovitz's celebrity portraits. Flashy, exciting, emotive, but trivial with no depth. She was ahead of her time. But then I've always tended to think that art can stand and be judged independent of the artist. Good thing, since many famous painters have been real assholes in real life. In my opinion you can gain more from the art by knowing about the artist's life. Knowing that Picasso was Spanish certainly adds to the power of 'Guernica', for instance. -- Cheers, Bobmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:47:01 -0400 (EDT) From: John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But then I've always tended to think that art can stand and be judged independent of the artist. Good thing, since many famous painters have been real assholes in real life. Not just painters, either. I can just about understand this when it's a highly competitive field such as intertnational sports - to be the best you have to beat your competition, and nice guys finish last. But in a less competitive atmosphere it still seems that having whatever it takes to set your work ahead of the pack often comes at the cost of social skills. Is this the price of fame? Nah! Great artists are just people with great artistic ability. By all counts (no pun intended), Haydn was this great guy and Bach, other than being truly parsimonious (with all those kids, no wonder) gave freely of his time to help his peers, while Wagner was jealous and totally self-centered. Dickenson was totally reclusive while Whitman seemed to always be out cruising. Django Reinhardt and Picasso remained above the fray during WWII while others fled on moral principles. Reifenstahl was one of the best documentary makers ever. She was excedingly bright and chose to make what she wanted. I can't believe she didn't have the smarts to know just what was going on. I have a friend who was 12 when the war ended. Her father was a Nazi mayor in Germany and there are pictures of her presenting flowers to the Leader. She says that she knew what was going on, so it's difficult to believe that Leni didn't. It was to her benefit, so she did it. People like that don't cause millions to be killed, but they do make it easier for the monsters to ply their trade. This doesn't stop us from enjoying the quality of their work. Larry
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Hi, John, I just re-read this paragraph; it actually appeared in Adelheid's post. Now I remember that I wanted to respond to it yesterday. And, my response is: that Dr. Strangelove or How I Learned to Love the Bomb was satire! Of course, it was an anti-bomb movie. You can't really compare it to anything Reifenstahl did. AFAIK, she didn't do satire, or any other form of comedy. vbg cheers, frank John Francis wrote: snip One last analogy: At the end of Dr. Strangelove, Kubrick has included an incredibly beautiful sequence of one of the most horrendous creations of man - nuclear explosions. Yet it would be hard to reason from this that Kubrick was pro-bomb. -- Honour - that virtue of the unjust! -Albert Camus
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
I don't think anyone disputes her well-honed skills as a cinematographer. Nor is there any dispute that she was one of the top, believing, Nazi propagandists... keith whaley Sid Barras wrote: I thought it would be good to stir up some non-*istD controversy-- And what better person to discuss infamy and fame about than Adolph Hitler's own photographer and cinematographer? She could very well have been the most influential photographer of all time. Her use of camera angles in Triumph of the Will is a masterpiece. Had she not gone into seclusion for so long after the fall of the Nazi regime, she might have given us even more. Regardless, the Nubian pictures, her undersea photography (pursued well into her 9th generation) gave us ample evidence this was not merely a Nazi propagandist... Sid (definitely not a Nazi sympathizer)
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
You're right, Sid, What's not controversial about her is her skill and innovation as a filmaker. Beyond that, I don't know what to think. She claimed never to have been a party member. Claimed that in her later years at least, she didn't subscribe to Nazi politics or policy. Claimed that she never (as was rumoured) had an affair with Hitler, and that she wasn't that close to him. Claimed that her great works, including her personal triumph, Triumph of the Will was not propaganda, but merely (from her point of view) a commission. In her old age she said that she wished she'd never been born. OTOH, she could have denounced the Nazi regime, but she didn't. She could have apologized for (even unwittingly) making propaganda for one of the most evil regimes that this earth has ever seen, but she didn't. She may not have been a party member, but evidence seems to point to the fact that as a young woman she was enamoured of the party, and it's policies, and seemed somewhat eager to become an insider. If that was true, she could have, after the fact, said that she was young, deluded, like many others in her country was fooled by the absolute and intoxicating power that the new party promised, and thereby blinded to the darker elements that we can now see were lurking just under the surface. But she didn't. It has been said that some propagandists of evil regimes, such as Eisenstein in the USSR, weren't vilified like her, and that their works were allowed to be seen as the art that they were, and not dismissed as propaganda. It has been suggested that there was some sort of vendetta against Leni, who never did a film after WWII, as she could never get any sort of funding (and thus was effectively black-listed) - the reason that she could only produce works of still photography. She was an enogma to be sure. She was a great filmaker and photographer to be sure (her still photographs of the '36 Olympics are amazing). I personally think that her personal politics were much more in line with Nazi-ism than she ever let on after the war. Rightly or wrongly, that feeling colours my appreciation for her as an artist. regards, frank Sid Barras wrote: I thought it would be good to stir up some non-*istD controversy-- And what better person to discuss infamy and fame about than Adolph Hitler's own photographer and cinematographer? She could very well have been the most influential photographer of all time. Her use of camera angles in Triumph of the Will is a masterpiece. Had she not gone into seclusion for so long after the fall of the Nazi regime, she might have given us even more. Regardless, the Nubian pictures, her undersea photography (pursued well into her 9th generation) gave us ample evidence this was not merely a Nazi propagandist... Sid (definitely not a Nazi sympathizer) -- Honour - that virtue of the unjust! -Albert Camus
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Well said, Frank. keith whaley frank theriault wrote: You're right, Sid, What's not controversial about her is her skill and innovation as a filmaker. Beyond that, I don't know what to think. She claimed never to have been a party member. Claimed that in her later years at least, she didn't subscribe to Nazi politics or policy. Claimed that she never (as was rumoured) had an affair with Hitler, and that she wasn't that close to him. Claimed that her great works, including her personal triumph, Triumph of the Will was not propaganda, but merely (from her point of view) a commission. In her old age she said that she wished she'd never been born. OTOH, she could have denounced the Nazi regime, but she didn't. She could have apologized for (even unwittingly) making propaganda for one of the most evil regimes that this earth has ever seen, but she didn't. She may not have been a party member, but evidence seems to point to the fact that as a young woman she was enamoured of the party, and it's policies, and seemed somewhat eager to become an insider. If that was true, she could have, after the fact, said that she was young, deluded, like many others in her country was fooled by the absolute and intoxicating power that the new party promised, and thereby blinded to the darker elements that we can now see were lurking just under the surface. But she didn't. It has been said that some propagandists of evil regimes, such as Eisenstein in the USSR, weren't vilified like her, and that their works were allowed to be seen as the art that they were, and not dismissed as propaganda. It has been suggested that there was some sort of vendetta against Leni, who never did a film after WWII, as she could never get any sort of funding (and thus was effectively black-listed) - the reason that she could only produce works of still photography. She was an enogma to be sure. She was a great filmaker and photographer to be sure (her still photographs of the '36 Olympics are amazing). I personally think that her personal politics were much more in line with Nazi-ism than she ever let on after the war. Rightly or wrongly, that feeling colours my appreciation for her as an artist. regards, frank Sid Barras wrote: I thought it would be good to stir up some non-*istD controversy-- And what better person to discuss infamy and fame about than Adolph Hitler's own photographer and cinematographer? She could very well have been the most influential photographer of all time. Her use of camera angles in Triumph of the Will is a masterpiece. Had she not gone into seclusion for so long after the fall of the Nazi regime, she might have given us even more. Regardless, the Nubian pictures, her undersea photography (pursued well into her 9th generation) gave us ample evidence this was not merely a Nazi propagandist... Sid (definitely not a Nazi sympathizer) -- Honour - that virtue of the unjust! -Albert Camus
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Hi Frank, that's exactly my point of view! Best Regards Rolf Frank wrote: You're right, Sid, What's not controversial about her is her skill and innovation as a filmaker. Beyond that, I don't know what to think. She claimed never to have been a party member. Claimed that in her later years at least, she didn't subscribe to Nazi politics or policy. Claimed that she never (as was rumoured) had an affair with Hitler, and that she wasn't that close to him. Claimed that her great works, including her personal triumph, Triumph of the Will was not propaganda, but merely (from her point of view) a commission. In her old age she said that she wished she'd never been born. OTOH, she could have denounced the Nazi regime, but she didn't. She could have apologized for (even unwittingly) making propaganda for one of the most evil regimes that this earth has ever seen, but she didn't. She may not have been a party member, but evidence seems to point to the fact that as a young woman she was enamoured of the party, and it's policies, and seemed somewhat eager to become an insider. If that was true, she could have, after the fact, said that she was young, deluded, like many others in her country was fooled by the absolute and intoxicating power that the new party promised, and thereby blinded to the darker elements that we can now see were lurking just under the surface. But she didn't. It has been said that some propagandists of evil regimes, such as Eisenstein in the USSR, weren't vilified like her, and that their works were allowed to be seen as the art that they were, and not dismissed as propaganda. It has been suggested that there was some sort of vendetta against Leni, who never did a film after WWII, as she could never get any sort of funding (and thus was effectively black-listed) - the reason that she could only produce works of still photography. She was an enogma to be sure. She was a great filmaker and photographer to be sure (her still photographs of the '36 Olympics are amazing). I personally think that her personal politics were much more in line with Nazi-ism than she ever let on after the war. Rightly or wrongly, that feeling colours my appreciation for her as an artist. regards, frank
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
She was an enogma to be sure. She was a great filmaker and photographer to be sure (her still photographs of the '36 Olympics are amazing). I personally think that her personal politics were much more in line with Nazi-ism than she ever let on after the war. Rightly or wrongly, that feeling colours my appreciation for her as an artist. regards, frank I'd always heard she was not a Nazi. Whatever. I am very glad she made Triumph of the Will, it was only by viewing it in a college film class (many long years ago) that I came close to understanding the charisma that that funny little man Hitler had. Also, even though it was in German, she managed to convey the national joint insanity that German -- the fervor of nationalism led astray -- went through. Without seeing it, I am not sure I would ever have gotten it. Marnie aka Doe
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
Hi, Tom, I mostly agree with you, except I don't think my commentary was political in any way. But, as far as guilt by association, one must consider who she apparently associated with. The higher up and more influential the persons she associated with, the more she's liable to be thought of as some sort of a player with that group. And, yes, the passage of time should temper our willingness to forgive, look the other way, whatever. But, a wrong is always a wrong. It doesn't become more right with time. An apology along with an admission of responsibility would have been nice, though. regards, frank graywolf wrote: Interesting political commentary, Frank. However, I do not subscribe to evil by association especially more than a half century after the fact. May she rest in peace. frank theriault wrote: You're right, Sid, What's not controversial about her is her skill and innovation as a filmaker. Beyond that, I don't know what to think. She claimed never to have been a party member. Claimed that in her later years at least, she didn't subscribe to Nazi politics or policy. Claimed that she never (as was rumoured) had an affair with Hitler, and that she wasn't that close to him. Claimed that her great works, including her personal triumph, Triumph of the Will was not propaganda, but merely (from her point of view) a commission. In her old age she said that she wished she'd never been born. OTOH, she could have denounced the Nazi regime, but she didn't. She could have apologized for (even unwittingly) making propaganda for one of the most evil regimes that this earth has ever seen, but she didn't. She may not have been a party member, but evidence seems to point to the fact that as a young woman she was enamoured of the party, and it's policies, and seemed somewhat eager to become an insider. If that was true, she could have, after the fact, said that she was young, deluded, like many others in her country was fooled by the absolute and intoxicating power that the new party promised, and thereby blinded to the darker elements that we can now see were lurking just under the surface. But she didn't. It has been said that some propagandists of evil regimes, such as Eisenstein in the USSR, weren't vilified like her, and that their works were allowed to be seen as the art that they were, and not dismissed as propaganda. It has been suggested that there was some sort of vendetta against Leni, who never did a film after WWII, as she could never get any sort of funding (and thus was effectively black-listed) - the reason that she could only produce works of still photography. She was an enogma to be sure. She was a great filmaker and photographer to be sure (her still photographs of the '36 Olympics are amazing). I personally think that her personal politics were much more in line with Nazi-ism than she ever let on after the war. Rightly or wrongly, that feeling colours my appreciation for her as an artist. regards, frank Sid Barras wrote: I thought it would be good to stir up some non-*istD controversy-- And what better person to discuss infamy and fame about than Adolph Hitler's own photographer and cinematographer? She could very well have been the most influential photographer of all time. Her use of camera angles in Triumph of the Will is a masterpiece. Had she not gone into seclusion for so long after the fall of the Nazi regime, she might have given us even more. Regardless, the Nubian pictures, her undersea photography (pursued well into her 9th generation) gave us ample evidence this was not merely a Nazi propagandist... Sid (definitely not a Nazi sympathizer) -- Honour - that virtue of the unjust! -Albert Camus -- --graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com -- Honour - that virtue of the unjust! -Albert Camus
Re: OT: Leni Reifenstahl: A giant passes away
I am very glad she made Triumph of the Will, it was only by viewing it in a college film class (many long years ago) that I came close to understanding the charisma that that funny little man Hitler had. Also, even though it was in German, she managed to convey the national joint insanity that German -- the fervor of nationalism led astray -- went through. Without seeing it, I am not sure I would ever have gotten it. Well said, Marnie - I think that expresses my own viewpoint far better than I could have done. There *is* an attraction in such spectacles, and the only way those of us not present can understand that on an emotional (as opposed to rational) level is from second-hand experience. Ask yourself this - would the film be any less stirring were it made by an openly avowed Nazi? By someone who fought the Nazis? By a neutral outsider? That film is an incredible work, and I am glad that it was made. As to the use to which the film was put; that's the recurring problem of the photojournalist. Each photographer must make his own choices about that. But once you accept a commission, you should carry it out to the best of your ability. One last analogy: At the end of Dr. Strangelove, Kubrick has included an incredibly beautiful sequence of one of the most horrendous creations of man - nuclear explosions. Yet it would be hard to reason from this that Kubrick was pro-bomb.
