Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of, rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 18, 2011, at 6:44 AM, John Sessoms wrote: Any time demand for electricity drops below what the nuke plant is generating the excess electricity is used to pump water up to the reservoir on top of the mountain. Yes I've heard of other schemes where that is done (one in Tasmania perhaps?). To me it seems a very good way to make use of wind / solar power as it must be about the cheapest and most efficient method of large-scale energy storage. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of, rolling blackouts in Japan
Since I wrote this, the talking heads have backtracked to a scenario where units 5 6 are on a generator, allowing water to be pumped into the spent fuel pools. They are in the process of running power lines to the complex, but are not there yet. Demystification has not arrived in TelleyLand. . On Mar 17, 2011, at 15:13 , Joseph McAllister wrote: It was just announced on MSNBC that electrical power was just restored to the complex. Hopefully this will allow some pumps to work, some controls, and the metering systems to be brought online. A much better overview should be available within 24 hours (Saturday, Japan Time). I would think that quite a bit of the electrical circuitry in some of those units would have been damaged beyond use from the explosions. We shall see. Units 2, 5, 6 will be in good shape. That leaves only 1, 3, 4 to be dealt with ASAP. Best of luck over there. Thinking of you all the time. If it doesn’t excite you, This thing that you see, Why in the world, Would it excite me? —Jay Maisel Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 17, 2011, at 8:08 AM, Joseph McAllister wrote: As I discussed with some friends yesterday, I think any reactors built in the future should be situated uphill from the ocean, and downhill from a gazillion gallon water source, like a lake or man-made reservoir, that could gravity feed reactors for a few weeks in an emergency. It would need to be much higher than the plant, as it takes quite a but of pressure to pump water into a pressurized containment vessel. In that case they may as well use the reservoir to build a hydroelectric power station. Not that you'll get the same power rating but if you have such a reservoir you may as well make use of it. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 16, 2011, at 23:12 , David Mann wrote: On Mar 17, 2011, at 8:08 AM, Joseph McAllister wrote: As I discussed with some friends yesterday, I think any reactors built in the future should be situated uphill from the ocean, and downhill from a gazillion gallon water source, like a lake or man-made reservoir, that could gravity feed reactors for a few weeks in an emergency. It would need to be much higher than the plant, as it takes quite a but of pressure to pump water into a pressurized containment vessel. In that case they may as well use the reservoir to build a hydroelectric power station. Not that you'll get the same power rating but if you have such a reservoir you may as well make use of it. Dave Excellent solution! The hydroelectric generated power could power the rural areas, supplementing those big whirly things. The nuclear generated power could be sent to urban environs, to keep the neon nice and bright… In a catastrophe, cut off the rural users, after all, they have their whirly things to heat their hen houses, and send the water around the water wheel and on down the hill to the reactors! Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com I couldn't remember most of what I know today if it weren't for others sharing their knowledge of my past on the Internet. Thank you… -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
well you could take it one step further and use the reservoir as a pumped storage plant to compensate the fluctuation of the whirly things =) 2011/3/17 Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com: On Mar 16, 2011, at 23:12 , David Mann wrote: On Mar 17, 2011, at 8:08 AM, Joseph McAllister wrote: As I discussed with some friends yesterday, I think any reactors built in the future should be situated uphill from the ocean, and downhill from a gazillion gallon water source, like a lake or man-made reservoir, that could gravity feed reactors for a few weeks in an emergency. It would need to be much higher than the plant, as it takes quite a but of pressure to pump water into a pressurized containment vessel. In that case they may as well use the reservoir to build a hydroelectric power station. Not that you'll get the same power rating but if you have such a reservoir you may as well make use of it. Dave Excellent solution! The hydroelectric generated power could power the rural areas, supplementing those big whirly things. The nuclear generated power could be sent to urban environs, to keep the neon nice and bright… In a catastrophe, cut off the rural users, after all, they have their whirly things to heat their hen houses, and send the water around the water wheel and on down the hill to the reactors! Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com I couldn't remember most of what I know today if it weren't for others sharing their knowledge of my past on the Internet. Thank you… -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of, rolling blackouts in Japan
From: Joseph McAllister On Mar 16, 2011, at 17:00 , eckinator wrote: I would kind of think that all this pumping of water onto fuel rods glowing at somewhere between 800 and 2500 ?C would cause instant evaporation and the corresponding shock waves of pressure rises; AFAIK water expands 1700fold from liquid to vapor/gaseous after all. wouldn't that cause enormous stress and ultimately fatigue of the containment vessel? and are the pressure relief valves designed to withstand this abuse for an extended period? That is the challenge, once the fuel rods are uncovered. They get so hot that trying to cover them again with anything that could help reduce or stop the loss of coolant creates more steam which becomes volatile in contact with the hydrogen being released by the degrading fuel rods because it presents free oxygen to an increased amount of hydrogen. Like H3 0. So the helicopters that are currently (as I write this on Thursday morning Japan time) dumping water on the hot (burning at times) spent fuel rods would have to dump a lot in a short period of time to prevent it being boiled off instantly. They should be, and may be, dropping a slurry of water and sodium hydroxide (I think hydroxide, maybe not). The containments are already breached. But the place where the helicopters are dumping water is a storage pool for spent fuel rods, not inside the reactor. I think they've managed to get some cooling water into the reactors. I'm wondering how the water got out of the storage pool. The ones I'm familiar with are massive reinforced concrete structures with walls many feet thick set below ground level. The ones I worked on back in the late 70s had walls floors 10 feet thick, all poured in one continuous pour. They had multiple layers of #18 rebar on both the inside and outside faces with thousands of tie rods linking the two faces. The earthquake might bounce it around a lot and it should stay intact. An earthquake strong enough to breach structure like that wouldn't leave anything else standing, and I can see that there are towers and buildings still standing at the site. To get water out of the storage pool you had to suck it out uphill. There's supposed to be enough water in the pool to cover the spent fuel rod bundles and keep them cool even if they temporarily lose the ability to add water to the pool. If the pool is breached in some way that it has drained, they can't dump enough water from helicopters to bring the reactions under control. They're going to have to get multiple water pipe into that building to get control of the situation. Chernobyl was a dry pile design and the helicopters there were dumping sand and cement on to the exposed core. The sand and cement didn't flow away like water will. Over time it built up in layers to contain the reaction so that they could get a more permanent cap in place. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of, rolling blackouts in Japan
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 1:05 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: I'm wondering how the water got out of the storage pool. The ones I'm familiar with are massive reinforced concrete structures with walls many feet thick set below ground level. These are said to be on a floor above the reactor, with no strong ceiling or lid. There's a small diagram at: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/16/world/asia/reactors-status.html Things might have turned out better if the spent fuel were in the basement, and the diesel generators were on the upper levels. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of, rolling blackouts in Japan
John, Thanks for the perspective. You have a lot on your plate right now. Save some energy to deal with the therapy. Hope your computer problems resolve soon. Regards, Bob S. On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:05 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: From: Joseph McAllister On Mar 16, 2011, at 17:00 , eckinator wrote: I would kind of think that all this pumping of water onto fuel rods glowing at somewhere between 800 and 2500 ?C would cause instant evaporation and the corresponding shock waves of pressure rises; AFAIK water expands 1700fold from liquid to vapor/gaseous after all. wouldn't that cause enormous stress and ultimately fatigue of the containment vessel? and are the pressure relief valves designed to withstand this abuse for an extended period? That is the challenge, once the fuel rods are uncovered. They get so hot that trying to cover them again with anything that could help reduce or stop the loss of coolant creates more steam which becomes volatile in contact with the hydrogen being released by the degrading fuel rods because it presents free oxygen to an increased amount of hydrogen. Like H3 0. So the helicopters that are currently (as I write this on Thursday morning Japan time) dumping water on the hot (burning at times) spent fuel rods would have to dump a lot in a short period of time to prevent it being boiled off instantly. They should be, and may be, dropping a slurry of water and sodium hydroxide (I think hydroxide, maybe not). The containments are already breached. But the place where the helicopters are dumping water is a storage pool for spent fuel rods, not inside the reactor. I think they've managed to get some cooling water into the reactors. I'm wondering how the water got out of the storage pool. The ones I'm familiar with are massive reinforced concrete structures with walls many feet thick set below ground level. The ones I worked on back in the late 70s had walls floors 10 feet thick, all poured in one continuous pour. They had multiple layers of #18 rebar on both the inside and outside faces with thousands of tie rods linking the two faces. The earthquake might bounce it around a lot and it should stay intact. An earthquake strong enough to breach structure like that wouldn't leave anything else standing, and I can see that there are towers and buildings still standing at the site. To get water out of the storage pool you had to suck it out uphill. There's supposed to be enough water in the pool to cover the spent fuel rod bundles and keep them cool even if they temporarily lose the ability to add water to the pool. If the pool is breached in some way that it has drained, they can't dump enough water from helicopters to bring the reactions under control. They're going to have to get multiple water pipe into that building to get control of the situation. Chernobyl was a dry pile design and the helicopters there were dumping sand and cement on to the exposed core. The sand and cement didn't flow away like water will. Over time it built up in layers to contain the reaction so that they could get a more permanent cap in place. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 2011-03-16 19:57 , Joseph McAllister wrote: So the helicopters that are currently (as I write this on Thursday morning Japan time) dumping water on the hot (burning at times) spent fuel rods would have to dump a lot in a short period of time to prevent it being boiled off instantly. when water boils, it removes energy from the heat source, so there will be cooling even if the water doesn't stick around Russia did not see fit to buy insurance for their reactors, in hindsight a poor vision of the possible problems. that was the Soviet Union; most nations are essentially self-insured for catastrophes -- insurers would be insane to issue policies for losses potentially in the trillions of dollars -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of, rolling blackouts in Japan
From: David Mann On Mar 17, 2011, at 8:08 AM, Joseph McAllister wrote: As I discussed with some friends yesterday, I think any reactors built in the future should be situated uphill from the ocean, and downhill from a gazillion gallon water source, like a lake or man-made reservoir, that could gravity feed reactors for a few weeks in an emergency. It would need to be much higher than the plant, as it takes quite a but of pressure to pump water into a pressurized containment vessel. In that case they may as well use the reservoir to build a hydroelectric power station. Not that you'll get the same power rating but if you have such a reservoir you may as well make use of it. There's one in West Virginia that works sorta' that way. The reservoir is on top of a mountain with the nuke plant down by a river below. The nuke plant runs at a steady load around the clock. Any time demand for electricity drops below what the nuke plant is generating the excess electricity is used to pump water up to the reservoir on top of the mountain. When demand gets high the water is allowed to run down again to power hydro generators. I don't think there was any provision made to use the water from the reservoir for emergency cooling. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of, , rolling blackouts in Japan
From: Matthew Hunt On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 1:05 PM, John Sessoms jsessoms...@nc.rr.com wrote: I'm wondering how the water got out of the storage pool. The ones I'm familiar with are massive reinforced concrete structures with walls many feet thick set below ground level. These are said to be on a floor above the reactor, with no strong ceiling or lid. There's a small diagram at: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/16/world/asia/reactors-status.html Things might have turned out better if the spent fuel were in the basement, and the diesel generators were on the upper levels. The one I helped build back in the late 70's has a much more massive containment structure. At the scale of the diagram, the spent fuel pool structure would have been about as large as the reactor building shown there and the spent fuel pool itself would have been about 1/3 of the volume. That looks like the GE boiling water reactor design is a bit smaller and not as well protected. We've got two of those here in North Carolina down at Southport on the Cape Fear River. The plant I worked on was for a Westinghouse pressurized Water reactor design. The top of the spent fuel pool would have been up where the spent fuel pool is in the diagram, but the bottom of the pool would have been down at the level of the torus. It was that way so the water level in the reactor building could be raised up above the top of the open reactor vessel for fueling. The top of the open vessel would be under about 30 feet of water during fueling operations so that the 24 foot fuel bundle could be lifted in and out without ever breaking the surface. Once the spent fuel was transferred back into the spent fuel pool, the cap would be bolted back on the reactor vessel and the reactor building would be pumped dry again. One of the emergency cooling options for the reactor was to just pump the containment building full of water and circulate that water through the interchange with the cooling towers. The diesel generators used for starting the system at Shearon Harris here in Wake County were located in their own buildings outside of the reactor complex (on the far side of the generator building from the containment). Those diesel generators are massive, with the actual generator portion itself being as big as a railroad locomotive. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of, rolling blackouts in Japan
It was just announced on MSNBC that electrical power was just restored to the complex. Hopefully this will allow some pumps to work, some controls, and the metering systems to be brought online. A much better overview should be available within 24 hours (Saturday, Japan Time). I would think that quite a bit of the electrical circuitry in some of those units would have been damaged beyond use from the explosions. We shall see. Units 2, 5, 6 will be in good shape. That leaves only 1, 3, 4 to be dealt with ASAP. Best of luck over there. Thinking of you all the time. On Mar 17, 2011, at 10:05 , John Sessoms wrote: From: Joseph McAllister On Mar 16, 2011, at 17:00 , eckinator wrote: I would kind of think that all this pumping of water onto fuel rods glowing at somewhere between 800 and 2500 ?C would cause instant evaporation and the corresponding shock waves of pressure rises; AFAIK water expands 1700fold from liquid to vapor/gaseous after all. wouldn't that cause enormous stress and ultimately fatigue of the containment vessel? and are the pressure relief valves designed to withstand this abuse for an extended period? That is the challenge, once the fuel rods are uncovered. They get so hot that trying to cover them again with anything that could help reduce or stop the loss of coolant creates more steam which becomes volatile in contact with the hydrogen being released by the degrading fuel rods because it presents free oxygen to an increased amount of hydrogen. Like H3 0. So the helicopters that are currently (as I write this on Thursday morning Japan time) dumping water on the hot (burning at times) spent fuel rods would have to dump a lot in a short period of time to prevent it being boiled off instantly. They should be, and may be, dropping a slurry of water and sodium hydroxide (I think hydroxide, maybe not). The containments are already breached. But the place where the helicopters are dumping water is a storage pool for spent fuel rods, not inside the reactor. I think they've managed to get some cooling water into the reactors. I'm wondering how the water got out of the storage pool. The ones I'm familiar with are massive reinforced concrete structures with walls many feet thick set below ground level. The ones I worked on back in the late 70s had walls floors 10 feet thick, all poured in one continuous pour. They had multiple layers of #18 rebar on both the inside and outside faces with thousands of tie rods linking the two faces. The earthquake might bounce it around a lot and it should stay intact. An earthquake strong enough to breach structure like that wouldn't leave anything else standing, and I can see that there are towers and buildings still standing at the site. To get water out of the storage pool you had to suck it out uphill. There's supposed to be enough water in the pool to cover the spent fuel rod bundles and keep them cool even if they temporarily lose the ability to add water to the pool. If the pool is breached in some way that it has drained, they can't dump enough water from helicopters to bring the reactions under control. They're going to have to get multiple water pipe into that building to get control of the situation. Chernobyl was a dry pile design and the helicopters there were dumping sand and cement on to the exposed core. The sand and cement didn't flow away like water will. Over time it built up in layers to contain the reaction so that they could get a more permanent cap in place. Joseph McAllister Lots of gear, not much time http://gallery.me.com/jomac -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 16 March 2011 16:53, David Mann d...@multisport.net.nz wrote: There's also a very informative video done by the Periodic Videos team: http://www.periodicvideos.com/videos/feature_nuclear_japan.htm Love the tie. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 15/03/2011 16:16, David Parsons wrote: The nuclear industry has a very good safety record and I would much rather rely on nuclear than coal or gas for power. Figure 2 catastrophic failures in 60 years (and contrary to public opinion, TMI was very well contained) with nuclear power generation. I know of at least three. Not to mention suspected failures in portables. Are you aware that fly ash from coal plants release 1000s of times more radiation on an annual basis than has ever been released from a nuclear plant? There is plenty of Uranium on this planet, it's not really rare. Besides that, the waste fuel can be re-used (but currently isn't due to government policies, not from any technical reason) and the supply can be extended for several usage cycles. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 16, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Rob Studdert wrote: On 16 March 2011 16:53, David Mann d...@multisport.net.nz wrote: There's also a very informative video done by the Periodic Videos team: http://www.periodicvideos.com/videos/feature_nuclear_japan.htm Love the tie. He's famous for those ties. He has quite a few :) Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/15 Keith Whaley keit...@dslextreme.com: I don't believe the quote at all. It's pure braggadocio... He argued it was so because they had double layer containments. This is a totally deceiving statement. Nuclear power plants use water to cool, and then return the water to the source. They do not _use it up_! They do not destroy it! Once the power plant is done with it's cooling properties, it's returned to 'nature.' yes, in the form of more or less hot water. which as you know promotes algae growth and reduces oxygen levels in rivers which as you know affects the aquatic fauna or in other words kills fish. which in turn results in power plants being shut down to protect said fish. that is what happened. during the great droughts of the last decades a number of plants in france and spain had to shut down. incidentally at a time of rising power consumption caused by increased load from air conditioners. nuclear power plants very much do destroy water in that they make it uninhabitable to fish if you just let them run full throttle. oh and speaking of water, in the past 1000 years of recorded history and not counting 2011 in Japan 150.000+ tsunami victims are documented. not counting the unsung. someone with a little more brains and a little less greed would not have placed their nuke plants on the shore line for lack of inland water but installed aqueducts and pumps instead and taken their plants to dryer grounds... the nuclear power industry has no genuine interest in safety where costs can be avoided. and no genuine interest in transparency either if you look at Tepco's record (or Vattenfall's or ... well you name them) for messing up, forging records and then resorting to salami tactics. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Debating the pros and cons of nuclear power on the PDML is rather less productive than discussing the relative merits of Canon vs Nikon, and a lot less likely to change anyone's opinion. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
neither is of any import to me, Larry =P you can give me a Canon or Nikon any day; I'll take it. just don't force your fuel rod on me... 2011/3/16 Larry Colen l...@red4est.com: Debating the pros and cons of nuclear power on the PDML is rather less productive than discussing the relative merits of Canon vs Nikon, and a lot less likely to change anyone's opinion. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:39 AM, eckinator wrote: neither is of any import to me, Larry =P you can give me a Canon or Nikon any day; I'll take it. just don't force your fuel rod on me... I'd never force my fuel rod on you, and might even take you out for dinner and a movie first. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 15/3/11, alunf...@gmail.com, discombobulated, unleashed: responding to drama-hungry journalists. Surely not! ;) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 15/3/11, Boris Liberman, discombobulated, unleashed: in mass panic?! That's what really frightens me. Japanese panic - an oxymoron surely! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/16 Larry Colen l...@red4est.com: I'd never force my fuel rod on you, and might even take you out for dinner and a movie first. hehe...you had me at butterscotch popcorn.. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 3/16/2011 1:23 PM, Cotty wrote: On 15/3/11, Boris Liberman, discombobulated, unleashed: in mass panic?! That's what really frightens me. Japanese panic - an oxymoron surely! Well, I gotta tell you this story then. Heard it on the local news program just a couple days ago. There were a local mass media crew in Japan that were reporting live to the news program. So the guy (photog by the way) tells that he and his accomplice were walking down the Tokyo subway and chanced upon a woman whom they asked some question or other. She immediately produced two masks and instructed them how to watch their clothes (long sleeves, wide brim hat, sun glasses, etc) so as to minimize the contamination. You may actually have a point. That's amazing degree of social intelligence. Nonetheless, Cotty, admit that if a 12 million city runs out of food on the shops shelves, that's gonna be nasty. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
-Original Message- From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Cotty in mass panic?! That's what really frightens me. Japanese panic - an oxymoron surely! here's how the different perspectives are reported on the live feed on the BBC website at the moment: 1525: The EU's energy chief Guenther Oettinger has said that in the coming hours there could be further catastrophic events, which could pose a threat to the lives of people on the island. He told the European Parliament the Fukushima nuclear site was effectively out of control. The cooling systems did not work, and as a result we are somewhere between a disaster and a major disaster. 1520: The IAEA says the Japanese authorities have reported concerns about the condition of the spent nuclear fuel pool at Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 and Unit 4. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 10:46:35AM +0100, eckinator wrote: the nuclear power industry has no genuine interest in safety where costs can be avoided. and no genuine interest in transparency either if you look at Tepco's record (or Vattenfall's or ... well you name them) for messing up, forging records and then resorting to salami tactics. Oh, I don't think anybody would argue too strongly with you there. It's just that you seem to have some quaint belief that this is is some way unique to nuclear power, and that coal/oil/gas/whatever is in some way a safer option. The main difference is that the nuclear industry concentrates their risk into highly-visible incidents such as the one we see at present, while other methods of power generation spread their level of risk uniformly over the time period. That doesn't mean that the total level of risk over time is lower, though. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 16, 2011, at 02:46 , eckinator wrote: oh and speaking of water, in the past 1000 years of recorded history and not counting 2011 in Japan 150.000+ tsunami victims are documented. not counting the unsung. someone with a little more brains and a little less greed would not have placed their nuke plants on the shore line for lack of inland water but installed aqueducts and pumps instead and taken their plants to dryer grounds... There ya go! Except don't those pumps need power to operate to get that water up the hill to the power plants? And isn't that the main glitch in the systems in Japan right now? Well, they have generators to provide that, don't they? And they did use some, I don't know if the original ones or some brought in to replace the capability of those rendered inoperable by the Tsunami. Don't know the specifics. But from what I understand those were a no-go because they couldn't get the fuel to power them after the first day or so. As I discussed with some friends yesterday, I think any reactors built in the future should be situated uphill from the ocean, and downhill from a gazillion gallon water source, like a lake or man-made reservoir, that could gravity feed reactors for a few weeks in an emergency. It would need to be much higher than the plant, as it takes quite a but of pressure to pump water into a pressurized containment vessel. Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com http://gallery.me.com/jomac -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/16 Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com: As I discussed with some friends yesterday, I think any reactors built in the future should be situated uphill from the ocean, and downhill from a gazillion gallon water source, like a lake or man-made reservoir, that could gravity feed reactors for a few weeks in an emergency. It would need to be much higher than the plant, as it takes quite a but of pressure to pump water into a pressurized containment vessel. much higher is your problem here, Joe - it would need to be probably something like at least a a mile higher if my guess of the pressure is anywhere near realistic... but I do agree that there is much still to be invented in that field... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/16 John Francis jo...@panix.com: Oh, I don't think anybody would argue too strongly with you there. It's just that you seem to have some quaint belief that this is is some way unique to nuclear power, and that coal/oil/gas/whatever is in some way a safer option. unique: not really. I hold the firm believe that large corporations have no ethics whatsoever. all they care about is profit. it is called shareholder value. and their managers had better be some place safe on the day of the grand awakening. safer: yes. depends of course. dams can break. coal is dirty. oil is dirty. gas is somewhat dirty. deepwater horizon told its own story. shell in nigeria is yet another story. photovoltaics are IMO safe but produce lots of toxic waste in panel manufacture. wind turbines... well, they kill birds and the offshore wheels apparently disorient whales and dolphins. solar thermal plants seem fairly safe. sodium acetate waste heat storage looks pretty promising. they all have one advantage though: nothing they do has anywhere nearly the half life of plutonium or MOX. The main difference is that the nuclear industry concentrates their risk into highly-visible incidents such as the one we see at present, while other methods of power generation spread their level of risk uniformly over the time period. That doesn't mean that the total level of risk over time is lower, though. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 16, 2011, at 13:21 , eckinator wrote: 2011/3/16 Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com: As I discussed with some friends yesterday, I think any reactors built in the future should be situated uphill from the ocean, and downhill from a gazillion gallon water source, like a lake or man-made reservoir, that could gravity feed reactors for a few weeks in an emergency. It would need to be much higher than the plant, as it takes quite a but of pressure to pump water into a pressurized containment vessel. much higher is your problem here, Joe - it would need to be probably something like at least a a mile higher if my guess of the pressure is anywhere near realistic... but I do agree that there is much still to be invented in that field... I agree with that as well. If I recall though, to get a good water flow into a reactor with pump failure, one needs to vent the pressure from the containment vessel, normally through the Torus in these units, though in an emergency greater than that there are valves that can be opened to vent the steam from the boiling water out the top of the vessel. The downside of that is, if you remember from science class, if you have superheated water under pressure, removing the pressure lowers the boiling point of the liquid, which causes a great amount of steam to be generated that needs to be released. Sort of a cascading problem, because at some point so much water is being turned to steam that it lowers the water level, perhaps faster than water can be pumped in to replace it. I do not claim to know everything about the operation of the GE reactors in trouble in Japan right now. I did learn the basics as a teenager some 50 years ago, conversing with my father as well as listening in on many conversations over dinners with several of the big names in the Atomic Energy business. R.G. McAllister was a Nuclear Health Physicist sent to represent the the U.S.A. Insurance Pool at several ISO conventions held at the Hague in the 1950's and 60's where the many safety measures in the use of these radioactive materials, from dentists and hospital use up to weapons production, were discussed and agreed upon. The reason for these month long meetings was that no insurance company, nor any country's insurance industry, could afford to cover a catastrophic event such as the one we are currently witness to in Japan. The risk had to be covered on a global scale. Don't be surprised if some of the large insurance companies in the world start selling off assets such as downtown buildings and other properties in the next year or three. If it doesn’t excite you, This thing that you see, Why in the world, Would it excite me? —Jay Maisel Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/16 Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com: I agree with that as well. If I recall though, to get a good water flow into a reactor with pump failure, one needs to vent the pressure from the containment vessel, normally through the Torus in these units, though in an emergency greater than that there are valves that can be opened to vent the steam from the boiling water out the top of the vessel. The downside of that is, if you remember from science class, if you have superheated water under pressure, removing the pressure lowers the boiling point of the liquid, which causes a great amount of steam to be generated that needs to be released. Sort of a cascading problem, because at some point so much water is being turned to steam that it lowers the water level, perhaps faster than water can be pumped in to replace it. this is actually something that has been boggling my mind since I started thinking about what these poor people at fukushima who are still their and giving their lives for what amounts to palliative care of the plant and hopefully turning a 100% disaster into an 80% disaster are doing all day. I would kind of think that all this pumping of water onto fuel rods glowing at somewhere between 800 and 2500 °C would cause instant evaporation and the corresponding shock waves of pressure rises; AFAIK water expands 1700fold from liquid to vapor/gaseous after all. wouldn't that cause enormous stress and ultimately fatigue of the containment vessel? and are the pressure relief valves designed to withstand this abuse for an extended period? I do not claim to know everything about the operation of the GE reactors in trouble in Japan right now. I did learn the basics as a teenager some 50 years ago, conversing with my father as well as listening in on many conversations over dinners with several of the big names in the Atomic Energy business. R.G. McAllister was a Nuclear Health Physicist sent to represent the the U.S.A. Insurance Pool at several ISO conventions held at the Hague in the 1950's and 60's where the many safety measures in the use of these radioactive materials, from dentists and hospital use up to weapons production, were discussed and agreed upon. The reason for these month long meetings was that no insurance company, nor any country's insurance industry, could afford to cover a catastrophic event such as the one we are currently witness to in Japan. The risk had to be covered on a global scale. just don't get me started on weapons. this is bad enough as it is. Don't be surprised if some of the large insurance companies in the world start selling off assets such as downtown buildings and other properties in the next year or three. sounds probable indeed. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 16, 2011, at 17:00 , eckinator wrote: I would kind of think that all this pumping of water onto fuel rods glowing at somewhere between 800 and 2500 °C would cause instant evaporation and the corresponding shock waves of pressure rises; AFAIK water expands 1700fold from liquid to vapor/gaseous after all. wouldn't that cause enormous stress and ultimately fatigue of the containment vessel? and are the pressure relief valves designed to withstand this abuse for an extended period? That is the challenge, once the fuel rods are uncovered. They get so hot that trying to cover them again with anything that could help reduce or stop the loss of coolant creates more steam which becomes volatile in contact with the hydrogen being released by the degrading fuel rods because it presents free oxygen to an increased amount of hydrogen. Like H3 0. So the helicopters that are currently (as I write this on Thursday morning Japan time) dumping water on the hot (burning at times) spent fuel rods would have to dump a lot in a short period of time to prevent it being boiled off instantly. They should be, and may be, dropping a slurry of water and sodium hydroxide (I think hydroxide, maybe not). And yes, the valves are designed to deal with tremendous pressures, until they fail of course. I do not claim to know everything about the operation of the GE reactors in trouble in Japan right now. I did learn the basics as a teenager some 50 years ago, conversing with my father as well as listening in on many conversations over dinners with several of the big names in the Atomic Energy business. R.G. McAllister was a Nuclear Health Physicist sent to represent the the U.S.A. Insurance Pool at several ISO conventions held at the Hague in the 1950's and 60's where the many safety measures in the use of these radioactive materials, from dentists and hospital use up to weapons production, were discussed and agreed upon. The reason for these month long meetings was that no insurance company, nor any country's insurance industry, could afford to cover a catastrophic event such as the one we are currently witness to in Japan. The risk had to be covered on a global scale. just don't get me started on weapons. this is bad enough as it is. Don't be surprised if some of the large insurance companies in the world start selling off assets such as downtown buildings and other properties in the next year or three. sounds probable indeed. Russia did not see fit to buy insurance for their reactors, in hindsight a poor vision of the possible problems. But it' not just science and weaponry that need underwriting protection, it's the rider on every other insured within reach of a nuclear incident. Joseph McAllister pentax...@mac.com “ It is still true, as was first said many years ago, that people are the only sophisticated computing devices that can be made at low cost by unskilled workers!” — Martin G. Wolf, PhD -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 3/15/2011 6:09 AM, Rob Studdert wrote: On 15 March 2011 15:04, Christine Aguilacagu...@earthlink.net wrote: Sad news about Canon Nikon workers due to situation in Japan. Scroll down to Hoya to read the following: due to rolling blackouts . . . decided to close operations of the Pentax Customer Service Center, Tokyo Service Center, Pentax Forum Shinjuku, Pentax Family Magazine, and the Pentax Online Shop today, and plans to make a statement on its website later regarding tomorrow's operations. Unfortunately that's not the worst of it ;-( http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/15/3164151.htm Indeed. I am most worried by the fact that (judging from our local news agencies) Japanese officials started using word Chernobyl and comparing their situation directly to Chernobyl catastrophe. In comparison, the fact that Canon, Nikon, Epson and others are closing their fabs is sad but of much smaller magnitude than the scale of the global catastrophe that struck the country. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 15/3/11, Boris Liberman, discombobulated, unleashed: Indeed. I am most worried by the fact that (judging from our local news agencies) Japanese officials started using word Chernobyl and comparing their situation directly to Chernobyl catastrophe. The current situation at Fukushima is nowhere near a 'Chernobyl' situation. Chernobyl was something entirely different, with the resulting explosion pushing highly radioactive material well into the atmosphere where it was carried by prevailing currents far across the world. Fukushima (at time of writing) is still very localised, even if there is radioactive material venting. HTH Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12745186 -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
I haven't seen any official comparison here. What I have seen is statements playing the game of 'if', responding to drama-hungry journalists. Must be terrible over there now, with the uncertainty over which way the situation will swing. --- Original message --- From: Cotty cotty...@mac.com To: PDML@pdml.net Sent: 15.3.'11, 11:59 On 15/3/11, Boris Liberman, discombobulated, unleashed: Indeed. I am most worried by the fact that (judging from our local news agencies) Japanese officials started using word Chernobyl and comparing their situation directly to Chernobyl catastrophe. The current situation at Fukushima is nowhere near a 'Chernobyl' situation. Chernobyl was something entirely different, with the resulting explosion pushing highly radioactive material well into the atmosphere where it was carried by prevailing currents far across the world. Fukushima (at time of writing) is still very localised, even if there is radioactive material venting. HTH Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12745186 -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 3/15/2011 12:59 PM, Cotty wrote: Indeed. I am most worried by the fact that (judging from our local news agencies) Japanese officials started using word Chernobyl and comparing their situation directly to Chernobyl catastrophe. The current situation at Fukushima is nowhere near a 'Chernobyl' situation. Chernobyl was something entirely different, with the resulting explosion pushing highly radioactive material well into the atmosphere where it was carried by prevailing currents far across the world. Fukushima (at time of writing) is still very localised, even if there is radioactive material venting. HTH Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12745186 Cotty, I am certain that Japanese learned the lessons of Ukrainians. I am also certain that technical pedigree of gear and engineering staff is superior in Fukushima. I am more worried by the panic that may ensue. Consider city such as Tokyo (I reckon it is good double digit figure of millions of inhabitants) in mass panic?! That's what really frightens me. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ On Mar 15, 2011, at 4:11 AM, alunf...@gmail.com alunf...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't seen any official comparison here. What I have seen is statements playing the game of 'if', responding to drama-hungry journalists. Must be terrible over there now, with the uncertainty over which way the situation will swing. --- Original message --- From: Cotty cotty...@mac.com To: PDML@pdml.net Sent: 15.3.'11, 11:59 On 15/3/11, Boris Liberman, discombobulated, unleashed: Indeed. I am most worried by the fact that (judging from our local news agencies) Japanese officials started using word Chernobyl and comparing their situation directly to Chernobyl catastrophe. The current situation at Fukushima is nowhere near a 'Chernobyl' situation. Chernobyl was something entirely different, with the resulting explosion pushing highly radioactive material well into the atmosphere where it was carried by prevailing currents far across the world. Fukushima (at time of writing) is still very localised, even if there is radioactive material venting. HTH Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12745186 -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Thanks Larry, I had already looked at the link from your post to FB. It looks like a sober service. --- Original message --- From: Larry Colen l...@red4est.com To: pdml@pdml.net Sent: 15.3.'11, 12:28 A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ On Mar 15, 2011, at 4:11 AM, alunf...@gmail.com alunf...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't seen any official comparison here. What I have seen is statements playing the game of 'if', responding to drama-hungry journalists. Must be terrible over there now, with the uncertainty over which way the situation will swing. --- Original message --- From: Cotty cotty...@mac.com To: PDML@pdml.net Sent: 15.3.'11, 11:59 On 15/3/11, Boris Liberman, discombobulated, unleashed: Indeed. I am most worried by the fact that (judging from our local news agencies) Japanese officials started using word Chernobyl and comparing their situation directly to Chernobyl catastrophe. The current situation at Fukushima is nowhere near a 'Chernobyl' situation. Chernobyl was something entirely different, with the resulting explosion pushing highly radioactive material well into the atmosphere where it was carried by prevailing currents far across the world. Fukushima (at time of writing) is still very localised, even if there is radioactive material venting. HTH Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12745186 -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche -- http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
..damage to container shielding and exposed fuel rods.. language is unsettling. J --- On Tue, 3/15/11, Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com wrote: From: Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com Subject: Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 12:08 AM On 3/15/2011 6:09 AM, Rob Studdert wrote: On 15 March 2011 15:04, Christine Aguilacagu...@earthlink.net wrote: Sad news about Canon Nikon workers due to situation in Japan. Scroll down to Hoya to read the following: due to rolling blackouts . . . decided to close operations of the Pentax Customer Service Center, Tokyo Service Center, Pentax Forum Shinjuku, Pentax Family Magazine, and the Pentax Online Shop today, and plans to make a statement on its website later regarding tomorrow's operations. Unfortunately that's not the worst of it ;-( http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/15/3164151.htm Indeed. I am most worried by the fact that (judging from our local news agencies) Japanese officials started using word Chernobyl and comparing their situation directly to Chernobyl catastrophe. In comparison, the fact that Canon, Nikon, Epson and others are closing their fabs is sad but of much smaller magnitude than the scale of the global catastrophe that struck the country. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 3/15/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Colen wrote: A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ Thanks, Larry. Bookmarked. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
INES level is up to 6 from 4 now according to French ASN. Chernobyl was 7. The situation is different in that Fukushima 1 (Daiichi) is not graphite moderated so there can be no graphite fire but a steam explosion isn't so bad either. All 6 blocks in varying degrees trouble now, at least 200 tons of spentfuel rods in cooling basins outside the containments, a broken containment in block 2, radiation levels too high in the control room etc... One expert named Mycle Schneider was quoted saying all being done now was palliative. Oh, and two block cooling failures in Fukushima 2 (Daini) yet to evolve. Tokai and Onagawa look safe so far. Speaking of safe, French Sarkozy just announced there will be no stop to French nuclear plans as French reactors are (quote) ten times safer than those in Japan. Same from a number of other countries or to a similar vein. Fukushima Daiichi was built using a 60s GE design and hasn't been upgraded much since. So much for lessons learned from Chernobyl. Not even the Wallmann valves were redundant apparently. And Tepco was involved in a number of cover up scandals including forged maintenance docs. It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. 2011/3/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: On 3/15/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Colen wrote: A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ Thanks, Larry. Bookmarked. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Ecki, It's not the learning from the thing, but the doing that's at fault. Nobody has found good alternatives... Regards, Bob S. On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:06 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: INES level is up to 6 from 4 now according to French ASN. Chernobyl was 7. The situation is different in that Fukushima 1 (Daiichi) is not graphite moderated so there can be no graphite fire but a steam explosion isn't so bad either. All 6 blocks in varying degrees trouble now, at least 200 tons of spentfuel rods in cooling basins outside the containments, a broken containment in block 2, radiation levels too high in the control room etc... One expert named Mycle Schneider was quoted saying all being done now was palliative. Oh, and two block cooling failures in Fukushima 2 (Daini) yet to evolve. Tokai and Onagawa look safe so far. Speaking of safe, French Sarkozy just announced there will be no stop to French nuclear plans as French reactors are (quote) ten times safer than those in Japan. Same from a number of other countries or to a similar vein. Fukushima Daiichi was built using a 60s GE design and hasn't been upgraded much since. So much for lessons learned from Chernobyl. Not even the Wallmann valves were redundant apparently. And Tepco was involved in a number of cover up scandals including forged maintenance docs. It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. 2011/3/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: On 3/15/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Colen wrote: A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ Thanks, Larry. Bookmarked. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Bob, there is a rule in IT operations that says whenever someone becomes indispensable [you must] fire them right away [before their damage potential gets even greater]. if there are no good alternatives to dangerous nuclear power plants, i.e. no safe nuclear power plants, then the world will have to do without nuclear power plants altogether or at least make an effort to do so. We can't just keep building new ones and pretend we're aware of the risks (well they're NOT risks but FACTS) and feverishly looking for a way out of that technological dead end. Not to mention that Uranium is running low so the price of nuclear energy is going to go up, not down. There are alternatives and I'll prefer any of them no matter what other ill effects they may harbour. and besides, the best alternative is to cut down consumption. In Germany there are presently two nuclear plants running exclusively to feed the goddamn STANDBY circuitry of home and office electronics. I don't want to see the world go down the drain because some fatass needs a FUCKING STANDBY LED on their bloody 42 couch potato illumination!!! 2011/3/15 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Ecki, It's not the learning from the thing, but the doing that's at fault. Nobody has found good alternatives... Regards, Bob S. On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:06 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: INES level is up to 6 from 4 now according to French ASN. Chernobyl was 7. The situation is different in that Fukushima 1 (Daiichi) is not graphite moderated so there can be no graphite fire but a steam explosion isn't so bad either. All 6 blocks in varying degrees trouble now, at least 200 tons of spentfuel rods in cooling basins outside the containments, a broken containment in block 2, radiation levels too high in the control room etc... One expert named Mycle Schneider was quoted saying all being done now was palliative. Oh, and two block cooling failures in Fukushima 2 (Daini) yet to evolve. Tokai and Onagawa look safe so far. Speaking of safe, French Sarkozy just announced there will be no stop to French nuclear plans as French reactors are (quote) ten times safer than those in Japan. Same from a number of other countries or to a similar vein. Fukushima Daiichi was built using a 60s GE design and hasn't been upgraded much since. So much for lessons learned from Chernobyl. Not even the Wallmann valves were redundant apparently. And Tepco was involved in a number of cover up scandals including forged maintenance docs. It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. 2011/3/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: On 3/15/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Colen wrote: A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ Thanks, Larry. Bookmarked. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Ecki, Then it's time to look to yourself. How much bigger is your energy footprint than your grandfather's was? Mine is surely much bigger. Regards, Bob S. On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 9:48 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: Bob, there is a rule in IT operations that says whenever someone becomes indispensable [you must] fire them right away [before their damage potential gets even greater]. if there are no good alternatives to dangerous nuclear power plants, i.e. no safe nuclear power plants, then the world will have to do without nuclear power plants altogether or at least make an effort to do so. We can't just keep building new ones and pretend we're aware of the risks (well they're NOT risks but FACTS) and feverishly looking for a way out of that technological dead end. Not to mention that Uranium is running low so the price of nuclear energy is going to go up, not down. There are alternatives and I'll prefer any of them no matter what other ill effects they may harbour. and besides, the best alternative is to cut down consumption. In Germany there are presently two nuclear plants running exclusively to feed the goddamn STANDBY circuitry of home and office electronics. I don't want to see the world go down the drain because some fatass needs a FUCKING STANDBY LED on their bloody 42 couch potato illumination!!! 2011/3/15 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Ecki, It's not the learning from the thing, but the doing that's at fault. Nobody has found good alternatives... Regards, Bob S. On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:06 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: INES level is up to 6 from 4 now according to French ASN. Chernobyl was 7. The situation is different in that Fukushima 1 (Daiichi) is not graphite moderated so there can be no graphite fire but a steam explosion isn't so bad either. All 6 blocks in varying degrees trouble now, at least 200 tons of spentfuel rods in cooling basins outside the containments, a broken containment in block 2, radiation levels too high in the control room etc... One expert named Mycle Schneider was quoted saying all being done now was palliative. Oh, and two block cooling failures in Fukushima 2 (Daini) yet to evolve. Tokai and Onagawa look safe so far. Speaking of safe, French Sarkozy just announced there will be no stop to French nuclear plans as French reactors are (quote) ten times safer than those in Japan. Same from a number of other countries or to a similar vein. Fukushima Daiichi was built using a 60s GE design and hasn't been upgraded much since. So much for lessons learned from Chernobyl. Not even the Wallmann valves were redundant apparently. And Tepco was involved in a number of cover up scandals including forged maintenance docs. It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. 2011/3/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: On 3/15/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Colen wrote: A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ Thanks, Larry. Bookmarked. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
The nuclear industry has a very good safety record and I would much rather rely on nuclear than coal or gas for power. Figure 2 catastrophic failures in 60 years (and contrary to public opinion, TMI was very well contained) with nuclear power generation. Are you aware that fly ash from coal plants release 1000s of times more radiation on an annual basis than has ever been released from a nuclear plant? There is plenty of Uranium on this planet, it's not really rare. Besides that, the waste fuel can be re-used (but currently isn't due to government policies, not from any technical reason) and the supply can be extended for several usage cycles. On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 10:48 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: Bob, there is a rule in IT operations that says whenever someone becomes indispensable [you must] fire them right away [before their damage potential gets even greater]. if there are no good alternatives to dangerous nuclear power plants, i.e. no safe nuclear power plants, then the world will have to do without nuclear power plants altogether or at least make an effort to do so. We can't just keep building new ones and pretend we're aware of the risks (well they're NOT risks but FACTS) and feverishly looking for a way out of that technological dead end. Not to mention that Uranium is running low so the price of nuclear energy is going to go up, not down. There are alternatives and I'll prefer any of them no matter what other ill effects they may harbour. and besides, the best alternative is to cut down consumption. In Germany there are presently two nuclear plants running exclusively to feed the goddamn STANDBY circuitry of home and office electronics. I don't want to see the world go down the drain because some fatass needs a FUCKING STANDBY LED on their bloody 42 couch potato illumination!!! 2011/3/15 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Ecki, It's not the learning from the thing, but the doing that's at fault. Nobody has found good alternatives... Regards, Bob S. On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:06 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: INES level is up to 6 from 4 now according to French ASN. Chernobyl was 7. The situation is different in that Fukushima 1 (Daiichi) is not graphite moderated so there can be no graphite fire but a steam explosion isn't so bad either. All 6 blocks in varying degrees trouble now, at least 200 tons of spentfuel rods in cooling basins outside the containments, a broken containment in block 2, radiation levels too high in the control room etc... One expert named Mycle Schneider was quoted saying all being done now was palliative. Oh, and two block cooling failures in Fukushima 2 (Daini) yet to evolve. Tokai and Onagawa look safe so far. Speaking of safe, French Sarkozy just announced there will be no stop to French nuclear plans as French reactors are (quote) ten times safer than those in Japan. Same from a number of other countries or to a similar vein. Fukushima Daiichi was built using a 60s GE design and hasn't been upgraded much since. So much for lessons learned from Chernobyl. Not even the Wallmann valves were redundant apparently. And Tepco was involved in a number of cover up scandals including forged maintenance docs. It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. 2011/3/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: On 3/15/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Colen wrote: A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ Thanks, Larry. Bookmarked. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- David Parsons Photography http://www.davidparsonsphoto.com Aloha Photographer Photoblog http://alohaphotog.blogspot.com/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/15 David Parsons parsons.da...@gmail.com: There is plenty of Uranium on this planet, it's not really rare. Far more common than eg. silver. It's mining the stuff that is difficult. AFAIK, Canada is the only country left with ore containing 1% U. Besides that, the waste fuel can be re-used (but currently isn't due to government policies, not from any technical reason) and the supply can be extended for several usage cycles. If breeder reactors had no technical issues at all, you wouldn't have to blame the government. The Fast Flux Test Facility in USA was an experimental breeder of sorts, wasn't it? IIRC it used liquid sodium for cooling the core, but transferred the energy to steam before putting it through the turbines. Nobody knows if that design is quake-proof. It's probably not. If the steam leaked into the sodium cirquit, it would ka-boom enough to maybe even satisfy Marvin the Martian. :-) Not that I claim to be an expert on these things, but then again, who is? -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
So is mine but I am doing much to bring it down (mot saying you are not). 2011/3/15 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Ecki, Then it's time to look to yourself. How much bigger is your energy footprint than your grandfather's was? Mine is surely much bigger. Regards, Bob S. On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 9:48 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: Bob, there is a rule in IT operations that says whenever someone becomes indispensable [you must] fire them right away [before their damage potential gets even greater]. if there are no good alternatives to dangerous nuclear power plants, i.e. no safe nuclear power plants, then the world will have to do without nuclear power plants altogether or at least make an effort to do so. We can't just keep building new ones and pretend we're aware of the risks (well they're NOT risks but FACTS) and feverishly looking for a way out of that technological dead end. Not to mention that Uranium is running low so the price of nuclear energy is going to go up, not down. There are alternatives and I'll prefer any of them no matter what other ill effects they may harbour. and besides, the best alternative is to cut down consumption. In Germany there are presently two nuclear plants running exclusively to feed the goddamn STANDBY circuitry of home and office electronics. I don't want to see the world go down the drain because some fatass needs a FUCKING STANDBY LED on their bloody 42 couch potato illumination!!! 2011/3/15 Bob Sullivan rf.sulli...@gmail.com: Ecki, It's not the learning from the thing, but the doing that's at fault. Nobody has found good alternatives... Regards, Bob S. On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:06 AM, eckinator eckina...@gmail.com wrote: INES level is up to 6 from 4 now according to French ASN. Chernobyl was 7. The situation is different in that Fukushima 1 (Daiichi) is not graphite moderated so there can be no graphite fire but a steam explosion isn't so bad either. All 6 blocks in varying degrees trouble now, at least 200 tons of spentfuel rods in cooling basins outside the containments, a broken containment in block 2, radiation levels too high in the control room etc... One expert named Mycle Schneider was quoted saying all being done now was palliative. Oh, and two block cooling failures in Fukushima 2 (Daini) yet to evolve. Tokai and Onagawa look safe so far. Speaking of safe, French Sarkozy just announced there will be no stop to French nuclear plans as French reactors are (quote) ten times safer than those in Japan. Same from a number of other countries or to a similar vein. Fukushima Daiichi was built using a 60s GE design and hasn't been upgraded much since. So much for lessons learned from Chernobyl. Not even the Wallmann valves were redundant apparently. And Tepco was involved in a number of cover up scandals including forged maintenance docs. It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. 2011/3/15 Boris Liberman bori...@gmail.com: On 3/15/2011 1:28 PM, Larry Colen wrote: A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ Thanks, Larry. Bookmarked. Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 09:10:10AM -0500, Bob Sullivan wrote: Ecki, It's not the learning from the thing, but the doing that's at fault. Nobody has found good alternatives... Regards, Bob S. It's more a sad reflection on human nature. Somebody will always try to cut corners, skimp on inspections, etc. It doesn't matter if it's a nuclear power plant, a deep-sea oil well, a copper mine, a gas pipeline, ... There's no accountability, and no personal risk - It's only somebody elses life on the line. It's always cheaper to buy off the legislators than to fix the problem. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 03:48:52PM +0100, eckinator wrote: Bob, there is a rule in IT operations that says whenever someone becomes indispensable [you must] fire them right away [before their damage potential gets even greater]. if there are no good alternatives to dangerous nuclear power plants, i.e. no safe nuclear power plants, then the world will have to do without nuclear power plants altogether or at least make an effort to do so. That only makes sense if you can come up with a viable alternative. Renewable energy isn't there yet, and everything else is at least as dangerous as a (well maintained, sensibly situated) modern nuclear plant. Reducing the world's energy demands might be the best solution, but you know that isn't going to happen overnight. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 15, 2011, at 6:06 AM, eckinator wrote: It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. Yes, but it might not happen until the very end of your lifetime. One way, or another. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/15 Larry Colen l...@red4est.com: On Mar 15, 2011, at 6:06 AM, eckinator wrote: It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. Yes, but it might not happen until the very end of your lifetime. One way, or another. Guess we just have to hope it doesn't actually bring that end about. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 09:52:28AM -0700, Larry Colen wrote: On Mar 15, 2011, at 6:06 AM, eckinator wrote: It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. Yes, but it might not happen until the very end of your lifetime. One way, or another. If the latest round of scare stories are to be believed, you're in more danger from radiation at US airports from those TSA scanners than you would be from camping outside the gates of the Japanese nuclear plants. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2011/03/aviation_securityfsrc=nlw|gul|03-15-2011|gulliver On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, John Francis jo...@panix.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 09:52:28AM -0700, Larry Colen wrote: On Mar 15, 2011, at 6:06 AM, eckinator wrote: It scares the living daylights out of me to think that noone seems to learn a thing from this. No matter how safe you make a nuke plant, you can never reach 100% and any failure of this order of magnitude will have similar effects. And it will happen again. Probably still in my lifetime. Yes, but it might not happen until the very end of your lifetime. One way, or another. If the latest round of scare stories are to be believed, you're in more danger from radiation at US airports from those TSA scanners than you would be from camping outside the gates of the Japanese nuclear plants. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Le 15/03/11 15:10, Bob Sullivan a écrit : Speaking of safe, French Sarkozy just announced there will be no stop to French nuclear plans as French reactors are (quote) ten times safer than those in Japan. I bet he did ! If our nuclear specialists were to be believed ( and since Tchernobyl, we certainly haven't believed a word they said ) , nothing can happen over here . they've seen to everything ! ... except maybe during a summer draught a few years ago but then they had forgotten that nuclear plants need huge amounts of water and water is scarce during draughts . anyway better not worry too much about it now there are 58 plants all over the country . As one of them joked : there aren't many tsunamis in Alsace ... ha ha ... Dominique -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Oh, if you think that's bad look up the published specifications of the US DOE's latest Tokamak, a basket ball court sized device with superconductors holding nearly an atomic bomb's worth of energy surrounded by a liquid sodium blanket. What could go wrong? On 3/15/2011 11:42 AM, AlunFoto wrote: 2011/3/15 David Parsonsparsons.da...@gmail.com: There is plenty of Uranium on this planet, it's not really rare. Far more common than eg. silver. It's mining the stuff that is difficult. AFAIK, Canada is the only country left with ore containing 1% U. Besides that, the waste fuel can be re-used (but currently isn't due to government policies, not from any technical reason) and the supply can be extended for several usage cycles. If breeder reactors had no technical issues at all, you wouldn't have to blame the government. The Fast Flux Test Facility in USA was an experimental breeder of sorts, wasn't it? IIRC it used liquid sodium for cooling the core, but transferred the energy to steam before putting it through the turbines. Nobody knows if that design is quake-proof. It's probably not. If the steam leaked into the sodium cirquit, it would ka-boom enough to maybe even satisfy Marvin the Martian. :-) Not that I claim to be an expert on these things, but then again, who is? -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Thanks P.J. :-) 2011/3/15 P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com: Oh, if you think that's bad look up the published specifications of the US DOE's latest Tokamak, a basket ball court sized device with superconductors holding nearly an atomic bomb's worth of energy surrounded by a liquid sodium blanket. What could go wrong? On 3/15/2011 11:42 AM, AlunFoto wrote: 2011/3/15 David Parsonsparsons.da...@gmail.com: There is plenty of Uranium on this planet, it's not really rare. Far more common than eg. silver. It's mining the stuff that is difficult. AFAIK, Canada is the only country left with ore containing 1% U. Besides that, the waste fuel can be re-used (but currently isn't due to government policies, not from any technical reason) and the supply can be extended for several usage cycles. If breeder reactors had no technical issues at all, you wouldn't have to blame the government. The Fast Flux Test Facility in USA was an experimental breeder of sorts, wasn't it? IIRC it used liquid sodium for cooling the core, but transferred the energy to steam before putting it through the turbines. Nobody knows if that design is quake-proof. It's probably not. If the steam leaked into the sodium cirquit, it would ka-boom enough to maybe even satisfy Marvin the Martian. :-) Not that I claim to be an expert on these things, but then again, who is? -- Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom! --Marvin the Martian. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- http://www.alunfoto.no/galleri/ http://alunfoto.blogspot.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/15 Keith Whaley keit...@dslextreme.com: You simply don't know what you're talking about. Quite apparently, you know little ot nothing abouto the entire nuclear power industry. To say there is no such thing as safe nuclear power is fatuous. Also incorrect! My suit is flame proof but not radiation proof. Next thing you'll tell me nuclear waste disposal is a problem solved long ago? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 15, 2011, at 15:39, eckinator wrote: 2011/3/15 Keith Whaley keit...@dslextreme.com: You simply don't know what you're talking about. Quite apparently, you know little ot nothing abouto the entire nuclear power industry. To say there is no such thing as safe nuclear power is fatuous. Also incorrect! My suit is flame proof but not radiation proof. Next thing you'll tell me nuclear waste disposal is a problem solved long ago? My son is able to easily separate the issues and tell me that nuclear energy is safe without considering the disposal issue. How the two are not permanently entwined escapes me, but he's able to do it. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/15 Charles Robinson charl...@visi.com: My son is able to easily separate the issues and tell me that nuclear energy is safe without considering the disposal issue. How the two are not permanently entwined escapes me, but he's able to do it. what was the name of that John Carpenter movie starring Rowdy Roddy Piper once again? as long as we're all free to choose our favorite brainwash... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
eckinator wrote: 2011/3/15 Keith Whaley keit...@dslextreme.com: You simply don't know what you're talking about. Quite apparently, you know little ot nothing abouto the entire nuclear power industry. To say there is no such thing as safe nuclear power is fatuous. Also incorrect! My suit is flame proof but not radiation proof. Next thing you'll tell me nuclear waste disposal is a problem solved long ago? Didn't say that. It's not solved. Is that the only problem you see? keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
2011/3/15 Keith Whaley keit...@dslextreme.com: Didn't say that. It's not solved. Is that the only problem you see? no I see tons more but since you see fit to call me clueless I expect you to substantiate your assertion over to you -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
Madame RD wrote: Le 15/03/11 15:10, Bob Sullivan a écrit : Speaking of safe, French Sarkozy just announced there will be no stop to French nuclear plans as French reactors are (quote) ten times safer than those in Japan. I don't believe the quote at all. It's pure braggadocio... I bet he did ! If our nuclear specialists were to be believed (and since Tchernobyl, we certainly haven't believed a word they said, nothing can happen over here. they've seen to everything! ... except maybe during a summer draught a few years ago but then they had forgotten that nuclear plants need huge amounts of water and water is scarce during draughts . This is a totally deceiving statement. Nuclear power plants use water to cool, and then return the water to the source. They do not _use it up_! They do not destroy it! Once the power plant is done with it's cooling properties, it's returned to 'nature.' anyway better not worry too much about it now there are 58 plants all over the country . As one of them joked : there aren't many tsunamis in Alsace ... ha ha ... Dominique keith whaley -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 16, 2011, at 6:55 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: Oh, if you think that's bad look up the published specifications of the US DOE's latest Tokamak, a basket ball court sized device with superconductors holding nearly an atomic bomb's worth of energy surrounded by a liquid sodium blanket. What could go wrong? Reminds me of the LHC. A 27-kilometre ring holding a crapload of energy, all surrounded by superconductors cooled by liquid helium. What could go wrong? :) Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On Mar 16, 2011, at 12:28 AM, Larry Colen wrote: A friend of mine who is a Nuclear Physicist, and lives in Los Alamos, read and vetted the original post in this series, which has been moved to the MIT Nuclear Science and Engineering website: http://mitnse.com/ There's also a very informative video done by the Periodic Videos team: http://www.periodicvideos.com/videos/feature_nuclear_japan.htm Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: pentax to close customer service center etc because of rolling blackouts in Japan
On 15 March 2011 15:04, Christine Aguila cagu...@earthlink.net wrote: Sad news about Canon Nikon workers due to situation in Japan. Scroll down to Hoya to read the following: due to rolling blackouts . . . decided to close operations of the Pentax Customer Service Center, Tokyo Service Center, Pentax Forum Shinjuku, Pentax Family Magazine, and the Pentax Online Shop today, and plans to make a statement on its website later regarding tomorrow's operations. Unfortunately that's not the worst of it ;-( http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/15/3164151.htm -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
