Re: Re: Re: We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Unfortunately Rod does not understand what Yoshie is saying. It is simply wrong to say "the problem is with the social system not with the technical feasibility." The problem is precisely with technical feasibility and it is mystification to argue anything else. If you think another social system would miraculously find vast new undiscovered deposits of fossil fuels, or work out how to make cold fusion work, or how to run bulldozers with light-bulb power PV's, then you are simply and wholly wrong about the elementary facts of the case. Mark Jones http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList - Original Message - From: "Rod Hay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 2:01 AM Subject: [PEN-L:20794] Re: Re: "We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000 I agree Yoshie. But the problem is with the social system not with the technical feasibility. Rod Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: There is no shortage of energy! Nor of any other resource. The environmental problem we have to solve is how to get rid of our garbage without fouling our environment to such an extent that it is inhospitable for human life. Rod I agree that waste management is an urgent problem, but the reason why there is "no shortage of energy nor of any other resources" is that the market rations their use. Econ 101 says that any shortage can be cured by an appropriately higher price, so it seems there is no point in celebrating an absence of shortage. The poor in poor countries have no access to electricity, clean water, reliable transportation, household appliances, and other goods that consume oil and other resources in their production, because they can't afford them. If everyone in the world were to live according to the standards set by rich nations, wouldn't there be a problem (though capitalism does prevent this particular problem from ever arising, since the majority are doomed to poverty)? Yoshie -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: Re: Re: Re: We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
London (1830) Economic pundit X: If the economy continues to grow at its present rate, in fifty years we will all be buried in ten feet of horse shit. Rod -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
From your database of 1, you produced a profound sample, no? Now, however, let's talk about fossil carbon and what it means and what it does, or else stop wasting our time. Mark Jones http://www.egroups.com/group/CrashList - Original Message - From: "Rod Hay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 12:32 PM Subject: [PEN-L:20818] Re: Re: Re: Re: "We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000 London (1830) Economic pundit X: If the economy continues to grow at its present rate, in fifty years we will all be buried in ten feet of horse shit. Rod -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: :We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
M A Jones wrote: Carrol, you keep asking what to do, I'd suggest superglue, go to a power station in a state of elation, stick yourself to a chimney, then we'll see, if it's a nuke you stay till you're blue, if it's coal you stay till your ole, if you wanne be eco n' even more ego, tape yourself to a windmill, whaddya say? Quixote, you'll soon be green, but at least you'll be seen Alternatively, help us ORGANISE. Help us fucking organise, man. MA Jones seems to be changing his position. On the one hand he says we are running out of oil and there is nothing anyone can do about it. So What's to organize? The other change is more interesting and perhaps reflects Ellen Frank's post, with which I agree. Now Mark has added global warming to his list of things to organize around. Good. But he never mentioned it before. During WW II in the war in the Pacific, one of the most horrendous battles was fought over the island of Tarawa. Death in great numbers came to both sides. Tarawa is now beneath the Pacific ocean, a casualty of global warming. So, Mark, what is it you want to ORGANISE around, the end of oil or global warming? And just what is the message you would convey to those you intend to organize? Gene Coyle
RE: Re: :We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Eugene Coyle wrote: MA Jones seems to be changing his position. On the one hand he says we are running out of oil and there is nothing anyone can do about it. So What's to organize? What does this mean? That you prefer to inhabit a world of illusion on condition that illusory organising remains an option? It is necessary to start from reality, however grim, and quit wishful thinking. Of course, there is nothing that you and I can do as individuals about the behemoth of late capitalism that is running over the world. But equally of course, we should do what we can to deal with results of that disaster, and not hide from them. Now Mark has added global warming to his list of things to organize around. Good. But he never mentioned it before. You obviously don't read what I write. But that's your problem, not mine. Mark
Re: Re: Re: :We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
Tarawa is an atoll. The battle was fought on the big island, Betio, which, however, is still pretty small--is there really room for 30,000 people there? Even scattered through the islands, that seems like a lot. Betio is pretty flat, too. Where is this 260 foot elevation? --jks In a message dated Wed, 28 Jun 2000 1:54:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: During WW II in the war in the Pacific, one of the most horrendous battles was fought over the island of Tarawa. Death in great numbers came to both sides. Tarawa is now beneath the Pacific ocean, a casualty of global warming. Gene Coyle 30,000 people live on Tarawa. The expected high today is 86 degrees. The high point on Tarawa is 260 feet above sea level. Where do people pick up such misinformation? Brad DeLong -- Professor J. Bradford DeLong Department of Economics, #3880 University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-3880 (510) 643-4027; (925) 283-2709 voice (510) 642-6615; (925) 283-3897 fax http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/
Re: We used 10 times as much energy in the 20thcentury as in the 1,000
There is no shortage of energy! Nor of any other resource. The environmental problem we have to solve is how to get rid of our garbage without fouling our environment to such an extent that it is inhospitable for human life. Rod I agree that waste management is an urgent problem, but the reason why there is "no shortage of energy nor of any other resources" is that the market rations their use. Econ 101 says that any shortage can be cured by an appropriately higher price, so it seems there is no point in celebrating an absence of shortage. The poor in poor countries have no access to electricity, clean water, reliable transportation, household appliances, and other goods that consume oil and other resources in their production, because they can't afford them. If everyone in the world were to live according to the standards set by rich nations, wouldn't there be a problem (though capitalism does prevent this particular problem from ever arising, since the majority are doomed to poverty)? Yoshie
