Re: Interview with Karl Marx
Why would I disagree with that,... what I disagree with is the notion that he is simply bigger than bentham, spencer or jevons. it is not a question of magnitude he simply does not fit with the rest of them and should be treated like that out of respect for the man. the minute we become selective about his thought in order to justify half hearted reform he seizes to be a working class theorist. in a real interview he warned against that. then again in the fictitious interview it appears that the United states is the only truly working class country because they fast food and wear jeans. now that is an absurd travesty if there was any. the minfestation of macdonalds determines the degree of adherence to working class identity. the logic of the man speaking in that interview spews with pan nationalist euro centrism, a sad reflection for a universalistic philosopher. the level of political responsibility is inversely related class hatred. the more the working class hates its oppressor the more it mythologizes the class struggles, adheres to nihilist beliefs, and acts accordingly. if it was social being that determines consciousness than western intellectuals should be very careful in the way they speak even if they consider themselves on the left, Marxist or what have you. the very structure of the language is telling as you know. that structure of the language in the said interview can prejudice someone from the third world, where hate is plenty. Kenneth Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hey! soula avramidis!>a young man ran towards the old marx all joy and zeal>wanting to join the cause; marx simply told him to>bugger off. he was nice but not naive.That sounds heartbreaking. I'm sorry to hear it.If you, personally, have to believe that Karl Marx was about the "ironrule of the working class" as a fixed principle, power to ya. We allneed to have core ideas to continue our own lives (on our internallevel), and if taking that idea you have there, and giving it a bushybeard and giving it a first name "Karl" -- if that is what helps you getthrough the night, fine by me.Karl Marx (the human being, which is the main focus of the article thatstarted this thread) was not an ideologue, he lived in a human body, hehad a father and mother who expected him to be certain things, he livedin London after being chased outta the continent, he had rivals on theplain upon which he vigorously competed, he had kids and some died (Icannot comprehend living in such a time of high infant mortality, andwhat it does to one), he apparently fucked around, he worked very hardat what he did, and he had friends who loved him very dearly unto death.But you know... even if Karl Marx had not been born... we'd still havesomething like "Marxism." Just a different name.As Michael P once put it to me, "Karl just nudged history along."History was happening with or without that kid born on the Rhine (whonow apparently attends all "American Social Science History Association"conferences as a ghost).Ken.--You know how they make kosher meat?They make the animal feel so guilty, it dies.-- Elayne Boosler Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
soula avramidis wrote: a young man ran towards the old marx all joy and zeal wanting to join the cause; marx simply told him to bugger off. he was nice but not naive. he was not a racist. the only way forward is the rule iron rule of the working class, capitalism was born with blood and fire and it will go down that way. sorry guys you have got fight, it takes guts, and at times you have to be brutal. the principal thing in marx's thought is the oxymoron in transient evolving form or then one asks where is the dance of the dialectic. but the key point is not to incorporate into western thought under some heading in the history of economic thought. if marx was not a marxist then it matters little in what shape or form humanity proceeds forwards under whatever ideological guise that organises man and nature in the ovens of the class struggle. the faster history spins the faster we get there. What in heaven's name does this mean? Armed struggle? By whom against whom? Or is just some romantic maximalism? Please clarify. Doug
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
Hey! soula avramidis! >a young man ran towards the old marx all joy and zeal >wanting to join the cause; marx simply told him to >bugger off. he was nice but not naive. That sounds heartbreaking. I'm sorry to hear it. If you, personally, have to believe that Karl Marx was about the "iron rule of the working class" as a fixed principle, power to ya. We all need to have core ideas to continue our own lives (on our internal level), and if taking that idea you have there, and giving it a bushy beard and giving it a first name "Karl" -- if that is what helps you get through the night, fine by me. Karl Marx (the human being, which is the main focus of the article that started this thread) was not an ideologue, he lived in a human body, he had a father and mother who expected him to be certain things, he lived in London after being chased outta the continent, he had rivals on the plain upon which he vigorously competed, he had kids and some died (I cannot comprehend living in such a time of high infant mortality, and what it does to one), he apparently fucked around, he worked very hard at what he did, and he had friends who loved him very dearly unto death. But you know... even if Karl Marx had not been born... we'd still have something like "Marxism." Just a different name. As Michael P once put it to me, "Karl just nudged history along." History was happening with or without that kid born on the Rhine (who now apparently attends all "American Social Science History Association" conferences as a ghost). Ken. -- You know how they make kosher meat? They make the animal feel so guilty, it dies. -- Elayne Boosler
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
a young man ran towards the old marx all joy and zeal wanting to join the cause; marx simply told him to bugger off. he was nice but not naive. he was not a racist. the only way forward is the rule iron rule of the working class, capitalism was born with blood and fire and it will go down that way. sorry guys you have got fight, it takes guts, and at times you have to be brutal. the principal thing in marx's thought is the oxymoron in transient evolving form or then one asks where is the dance of the dialectic. but the key point is not to incorporate into western thought under some heading in the history of economic thought. if marx was not a marxist then it matters little in what shape or form humanity proceeds forwards under whatever ideological guise that organises man and nature in the ovens of the class struggle. the faster history spins the faster we get there.Carrol Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kenneth Campbell wrote:>>> Karl _was_ tame, polite and reasonable in interview and personal> interaction.>> He spoke to the "other side" in a conversation -- didn't sit there> delivering monologues. Quite human.>Not true, or wholly true, from various accounts I have read. It would betrue, however, of Eleanor Marx. See Yvonne Kapp's wonderful biography ofEleanor. Karl was not very friendly to his illegitimate son. Eleanor,meeting Helmut after her father's death, tried to make up for that asbest she could.Carrol Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
Carrol Cox writes: [Some general gossip] We all have our moments, good and bad. That's the very definition of "quite human." Do you have a different one? Ken. -- Gossip is charming! But scandal is merely gossip made tedious by morality. -- Oscar Wilde
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
Soula writes: > that democratic centralism and Hegel are simple > anomalies unrelated to his thought is rather > strange. JKS writes:>Although I think the anti-Hegelian view is wrong it has a respectable pedigree. Althusser madea career out of arguing that MArx was no Hegelian.< methinks that the bit about Marx being anti-Hegelian and not having even read key works by Hegel was a joke, an effort to twit the Hegelian Marxists, some of whom have too great a sense of self-importance. Also, I agree with JKS that "democratic centralism" has no organic link to Marx's thought. On the left, it comes from people as Babeuf and Blanqui, from Lasalle and the German Social Democrats. In practice, "democratic centralism" is an oxymoron in many cases. Jim
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
Kenneth Campbell wrote: > > > Karl _was_ tame, polite and reasonable in interview and personal > interaction. > > He spoke to the "other side" in a conversation -- didn't sit there > delivering monologues. Quite human. > Not true, or wholly true, from various accounts I have read. It would be true, however, of Eleanor Marx. See Yvonne Kapp's wonderful biography of Eleanor. Karl was not very friendly to his illegitimate son. Eleanor, meeting Helmut after her father's death, tried to make up for that as best she could. Carrol
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
--- soula avramidis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > this Karl Marx is tame, domesticated and suitable > for a western audience so much so that he could be > in few years a candidate for the pentagon cabal. Don't be silly. Just because he's not your sort of PC firebrand doesn't make someone a sellout. Actually I thought this was a very clever and rather accurate picture of Marx, working from his actual views and prejudices. He despised explicit moralizing. He look the long view. He hated the parties of his time, including the ones he worked with. He was ruthlessly unsentimental. > i like the way he demeaned Slavs; there was a > definite flirt with the third Reich there. The real Karl Marx had a low view of Slavs, although he revised that towards the end of his life. It is, morever, an instance, of Whosiz Law, mentioned in another post on the list today, to drag in the Nazis; a clear indication that rational discussion just stopped. Just because Marx had racial prejudices, and he he surely did, doesn't mean that he was a proto-Nazi. Most people with such prejudices are not Nazis. > that democratic centralism and Hegel are simple > anomalies unrelated to his thought is rather > strange. Although I think the anti-Hegelian view is wrong it has a respectable pedigree. Althusser madea career out of arguing that MArx was no Hegelian. Democratic centralsim is not an expression or a concept that occurs in Marx. He has almost no discussion about the nature of the party, betond saying thatthe Communists impose no sectarian principles on the workers' movement. > > what is really dangerous is when Marx ceases to be > the nemesis of western culture and thought. attempts > to bring him into mainstream simply like any other > well meaning saint whose thoughts could not be > practiced is the ultimate idealist trap. Heaven forbid that anyone should learn from him; he must be maintained as the Other, The Enemy. Any acknowledgement that Marx was part of western civilization must lead to prostration before the bourgeoisie. To . . . gasp . . . bourgeois liberalism. Of course I am a bourgeois liberal myself. > > Marx is alive in the struggle that will bring down > imperialism and will never be incorporated willy > nilly into classical zestern thought. > the very thought is appaulling Odd, them that Engels saw Marx has realizing the ends of classical German philosophy, and insisted that most of the elements of his thought were not original, including the importance of class, the centrality of the economy, the law of value, etc. Sorry, Soula, what's left of Marxism are elements of a pretty good theory of capitalism, a theory that is firmly rooted in the classical Western Enlightement tradition. Lenin was right about this when he talked about the three sources of Marxism: French socialism, English (Scottish) political economy, and German philosophy. The movementw ith the red banners and the hammers and sickles and the marchinhg workers -- that's over. I am as sorry about it as you, but Marx was never one for sentiment,a nd he would discourage self-deception. He would not have wanted you to be a "Marxist" either, a term he never used. Engels either. jks __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
soula avramidis writes: >this Karl Marx is tame, domesticated and suitable >for a western audience Karl _was_ tame, polite and reasonable in interview and personal interaction. He spoke to the "other side" in a conversation -- didn't sit there delivering monologues. Quite human. Sorry about that, pal. Ken. -- A little sincerity is a dangerous thing; And a great deal of it is absolutely fatal. -- Oscar Wilde
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
this Karl Marx is tame, domesticated and suitable for a western audience so much so that he could be in few years a candidate for the pentagon cabal. i like the way he demeaned Slavs; there was a definite flirt with the third Reich there. that democratic centralism and Hegel are simple anomalies unrelated to his thought is rather strange. what is really dangerous is when Marx ceases to be the nemesis of western culture and thought. attempts to bring him into mainstream simply like any other well meaning saint whose thoughts could not be practiced is the ultimate idealist trap. Marx is alive in the struggle that will bring down imperialism and will never be incorporated willy nilly into classical zestern thought. the very thought is appaulling Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
Max B. Sawicky wrote: >this was great. > >www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/ArticleView.asp?accessible=yes&P_Article=12 295 It is great! Thoroughly entertaining and inspirational at the same time... My two reasons for thinking it so... 1) The Nod to the Past: The writer's assumption of Karl's style in interviews (the few that exist) and personal letters -- accurate in mimicry; so, thus, very witty and talented writing, whoever did it; 2) The Nod to the Present: The very modern underpinnings of it -- a subtle, confident *wink* at those in the here-and-now who know Karl was the premier thinker of his time (if not a bit more)... Ken. -- But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. -- Karl Marx
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
Thanks Louis! --- "Max B. Sawicky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > this was great. > > > -Original Message- > From: PEN-L list [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Louis > Proyect > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:05 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Interview with Karl Marx > > > http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/ArticleView.asp?accessible=yes&P_Article= > 12295 > -- > > The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org = * "A man's maturity consists in finding once again the seriousness he had as a child at play." Heraclitus, Greek philosopher (500 B.C.) http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Re: Interview with Karl Marx
this was great. -Original Message- From: PEN-L list [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Louis Proyect Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Interview with Karl Marx http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/ArticleView.asp?accessible=yes&P_Article= 12295 -- The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
