Re: [GENERAL] php professional
On 22.02.2007, at 16:03, Ted Byers wrote: One of my problems with database development is how to construct analogously strong test cases in order to prove the code correct. With tests you can't prove that your code is correct. You can only show that your code works with the test cases. There are ways of proving that code is correct, but I don't know anybody using that on "real world code". If you are using Java as a client you can use DbUnit for unit testing: http://www.dbunit.org/ This can or cannot show that your latest changes didn't break stuff that used to work ... ;-) cug ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
>>>One of my problems with database development is how to construct analogously strong test cases in order to prove the code correct. <<< I have found the best method is to be as random as possible. I think coders subconsciously only test with data they think will work so they don't have worry about working late. They're biased. We're all so programmed to think in deterministic ways that we don't recognize the power of pure random guessing. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org/
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
Mark> Similar issues with Mysql. It's faster, But it doesn't matter *how* fast you get the *wrong* answer. :) I thought one of the first rules of software engineering was "First make it right and only then make it fast!" Granted, most of my experience has more to do with number crunching and scientific computing, but for the past 27 years, I always first ensured the code was provably correct before worrying about optimization. And this always involved a test suite that applied every possible mathematical test with randomly generated test data. For example, my code for matrix algebra problems generally came with test code and driver that would exercise the code with tens of millions of random matrices and vectors. One failure, even in millions of test cases, means the code is somehow broken. I have seen, and fixed, such cases before. One of my problems with database development is how to construct analogously strong test cases in order to prove the code correct. And it seems to get harder as the database gets larger. :-( In other words, I know how to do this with algebra and calculus, and C++/Java/FORTRAN programming, but not with sets and SQL programming. Cheers, Ted ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
> "Mark" == Mark Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Mark> Similar issues with Mysql. It's faster, But it doesn't matter *how* fast you get the *wrong* answer. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
You're probably right. A good example of that is the difference between the excellent pgadmin and the desktop mysql administrator which is very buggy and strangely laid out. Whenever I have to deal with mysql I get the feeling I'm messing around with a bunch of hacks. It's very strange to deal with. Simple things like just granting access to a database you have to issue perhaps 3 different commands some from the os command line, some from the db interperter. I think people who understand the importance of administrative simplicity probably also make good coders and vice versa. Scott Marlowe wrote: I wasn't referring to projects written in both languages. I was referring to projects written primarily for MySQL or "real" databases (i.e. oracle, pgsql, mssql, db2, and on and on). No matter what language is used, I think you'll find that apps written primarily for mysql have poorer code than the ones written primarily for other apps. The ones that are truly transportable will generally be the best, but if they try to support MySQL AND the other real databases, you'll likely find lots of hacks in the code to keep MySQL happy, that wouldn't be needed if they didn't support it. Does that make more sense? ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
I wasn't referring to projects written in both languages. I was referring to projects written primarily for MySQL or "real" databases (i.e. oracle, pgsql, mssql, db2, and on and on). No matter what language is used, I think you'll find that apps written primarily for mysql have poorer code than the ones written primarily for other apps. The ones that are truly transportable will generally be the best, but if they try to support MySQL AND the other real databases, you'll likely find lots of hacks in the code to keep MySQL happy, that wouldn't be needed if they didn't support it. Does that make more sense? On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 13:36, Mark Walker wrote: > Hmm, I've never heard of an application that's written in both php and > Java. However, I know of many applications that run on both mysql and > postgresql. For instance phpbb which is the most common MB software is > written in php and runs with either postgresql or mysql. Database > server independence is definitely a goal for most non custom applications. > > Scott Marlowe wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 12:17, Mark Walker wrote: > > > > While I'll admit to some similarities between PHP/java and mysql/pgsql, > > I'd say that th gulf between php and java is far less than the gulf is > > between mysql and pgsql. > > > > Take a list of a hundred or so db based projects written in each > > language. Correlate it to the db used. It's likely you'll find a > > better correlation to the db used than the language. > > > > > > > > > ---(end of broadcast)--- > TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to >choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not >match ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
Hmm, I've never heard of an application that's written in both php and Java. However, I know of many applications that run on both mysql and postgresql. For instance phpbb which is the most common MB software is written in php and runs with either postgresql or mysql. Database server independence is definitely a goal for most non custom applications. Scott Marlowe wrote: On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 12:17, Mark Walker wrote: While I'll admit to some similarities between PHP/java and mysql/pgsql, I'd say that th gulf between php and java is far less than the gulf is between mysql and pgsql. Take a list of a hundred or so db based projects written in each language. Correlate it to the db used. It's likely you'll find a better correlation to the db used than the language. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 12:17, Mark Walker wrote: While I'll admit to some similarities between PHP/java and mysql/pgsql, I'd say that th gulf between php and java is far less than the gulf is between mysql and pgsql. Take a list of a hundred or so db based projects written in each language. Correlate it to the db used. It's likely you'll find a better correlation to the db used than the language. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
At 02:16 AM 2/23/2007, Joshua D. Drake wrote: We do not compete with MySQL. Does MySQL have the mindshare of the ignorant? Yes. Does MySQL have the mindhare of the knowledgeable? No. Our mindshare is *huge* with the knowledgeable. I will take mindshare with the knowledgeable over the ignorant, every second of the day. They pay better. The ignorant outnumber the knowledgeable by magnitudes. Lots of ignorant people paying small sums of money add up to quite a lot (politicians exploit that regularly). Also those expensive consultants find it much easier to get lots of money from ignorant people on a regular basis :). But if you're the sort who actually cares, it's easier to sleep at night the postgresql way ;). Regards, Link. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
I think a lot of the reasons people use LAMP is that inexpensive ISPs use LAMP. The reasons ISPs use LAMP as opposed to other, in my opinion more powerful tools has to do with the complexities of hosting large numbers of user applications on single machines. For instance, I don't know anybody who's ever coded in both PHP and Java/Servlet/jsp who would choose PHP. You'd have to be an idiot to choose PHP over Java/jsp. However, PHP is designed to very quickly induce an application state, run the application, and then archive the application state out of processor memory. Servlets are not designed to do that. They are designed to run on a Java Virtual Machine that remains resident indefinitely. As an ISP you have the choice to let all your users share the same application state with Java, very insecure, or run multiple jvms, very memory intensive. PHP works much better for you because apps induce their state, do what they need to do for each request, and then disappear. Similar issues with Mysql. It's faster, yet less powerful for transaction processing and data integrity than Postgresql. Well, most people who own their own servers are going be more worried about data integrity and transaction processing than pure speed. An ISP, however, wants speed less processor usage. The other thing is that Mysql has a faster connection/disconnection cycle. You can use connection pooling with Postgresql which is very fast, but again, more memory and application cycle problems. Given the choice, I think Postgresql is easier to work with, more robust, and easier to maintain than Mysql. However, if you want a $10 a month shared hosting account, you're going to almost definitely be forced to use Mysql. Issues of speed? I don't know, but I haven't reached any speed bottlenecks with Postgresql. Internet connection speeds and other application speed issues are usually the bottlenecks. It may just be what I do, but I'm definitely more worried about the integrety/security of my data than I am about speed. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
>> O.k. this is bizarre. One, this discussion belongs on -advocacy not >> -general. >> >> Two, you do realize that we have huge mind share right? > > Huge? Nah. AFAIK, Oracle hasn't tried to buy up the major suppliers[1] > of postgresql's "backend" tech yet. Ahh, because they can't? Oracle can't stop PostgreSQL because PostgreSQL is BSD licensed. Sure Oracle could purchase CMD (or more likely EDB just to remove a small thorn) but it wouldn't do anything the PostgreSQL machine. You are mistaking pretty pictures of non-reality with hard core truth. They are not the same. I have never lost a contract to MySQL. I have lost contracts to Oracle. We do not compete with MySQL. Does MySQL have the mindshare of the ignorant? Yes. Does MySQL have the mindhare of the knowledgeable? No. Our mindshare is *huge* with the knowledgeable. I will take mindshare with the knowledgeable over the ignorant, every second of the day. They pay better. Joshua D. Drake > > Link. > > [1] e.g. Tom Lane. > > > ---(end of broadcast)--- > TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
Lincoln Yeoh wrote: > At 01:30 AM 2/23/2007, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > >Two, you do realize that we have huge mind share right? > > Huge? Nah. AFAIK, Oracle hasn't tried to buy up the major > suppliers[1] of postgresql's "backend" tech yet. > > Link. > > [1] e.g. Tom Lane. How do you know? I'm pretty sure if Tom wanted to work for Oracle he would have sent a resume already :-) -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
At 01:30 AM 2/23/2007, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> Answer for this is a bit complex, more newbies howtos, more people >> saying that is better and so on > > Yeah. Would be good if we can figure out something that would help > postgresql increase its usage or mind share. O.k. this is bizarre. One, this discussion belongs on -advocacy not -general. Two, you do realize that we have huge mind share right? Huge? Nah. AFAIK, Oracle hasn't tried to buy up the major suppliers[1] of postgresql's "backend" tech yet. Link. [1] e.g. Tom Lane. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/22/07 10:40, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>> Well no. PHP is not a professional language because it has no really >>> design - and that has nothing to do with the fact it beeing a scripting >>> language. Its a bad scripting language. (Say namespaces for example, >>> confusing function interfaces, unicode flaws, missing usable frameworks, >>> silly type handling, quoting hell) >> - What do you mean by confusing function interfaces and unicode flaws? > > > This whole discussion is about a language lawyer and a professional. The > reality is, professional programmers do use PHP. I would say probably > more than any other language out there. This is what I get for writing an email at 4AM after dying at the top of Sokoban. Sooo close to the treasure room! Anyway... Personal Home Page Tools was designed to personal home pages in the low-threat environment of 1995, the same year as MySQL. Whereas some languages and RDBMSs have a firm design philosophy, both PHP & MySQL were built as personal/small-systems tools, and then wildly expanded. Current design, security & feature issues bear out that there's a lot of ad hocery in both systems. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF3dWbS9HxQb37XmcRAmZOAKDcricsMJl3SUrfJ/s6yzAzIOOCeQCgwcLX bmxwfTonJ5xZOBSkknR03Po= =6mAB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
>> Answer for this is a bit complex, more newbies howtos, more people >> saying that is better and so on > > Yeah. Would be good if we can figure out something that would help > postgresql increase its usage or mind share. O.k. this is bizarre. One, this discussion belongs on -advocacy not -general. Two, you do realize that we have huge mind share right? > > At least so that even the big bosses might be fine with using postgresql. Oh you mean like a good portion of the largest entities in the world already do? Not to be sarcastic but it sounds to me like your boss isn't paying attention. I spent Tuesday at one of the largest companies in the world discussion how we can deploy PostgreSQL enterprise wide. I spent the week before that teaching a class for a global 2000 that is about to deploy postgresql (in the next 2 years) to over 5000 installations. I will spent a week on the east coast doing the same thing for another division of said company. We regularly support a company that has over 4000 installations in Europe. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org/
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
At 12:54 AM 2/23/2007, Rodrigo Gonzalez wrote: PHP is easy and cheap to start, so there are lots of programmers using it, and someone like you, or any other company, can take a cheap programmer to do the work. Most of programmer use it with mysql, now this is the question to answerwhy? Maybe there is something else that can be useful for PostgreSQL (this list is about postgres right?). Now, comparing MySQL and PostgreSQL is something that maybe does not make sensebut the question is why most newbies go to MySQL and not PostgreSQL and say that MySQL is faster, better, easier and so on than pgsql Answer for this is a bit complex, more newbies howtos, more people saying that is better and so on Yeah. Would be good if we can figure out something that would help postgresql increase its usage or mind share. At least so that even the big bosses might be fine with using postgresql. I'd really rather use postgresql. Back in the postgres95 days, MySQL just won hands down. Then it started getting much better for 6.5.x then from 7.2 onwards things started rapidly getting better and better.. Oh well... Link. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
>> This whole discussion is about a language lawyer and a professional. The >> reality is, professional programmers do use PHP. I would say probably >> more than any other language out there. > > Yes, by the definition that they earn money by doing it. > >> Does that mean that PHP is a technically sound language? No. >> >> Does that mean some of these professional programmers are smarter than >> the language lawyers, because they can get their web apps done, quickly >> and have a huge community backing them up? Yes. > > Does that mean they would not write better apps in the same time if they > were so smart using better languages and actual frameworks? Define better? It is an opinion. Personally I think Ruby on Rails is a pile of dung that is slow and surrounded by zealots who don't know reality. I am sure Ruby on Rails people would disagree ;) > Do we really > need so many flawed PHP products regulary appear on bugtraq for the > same reasons every time? (Since the many programmers there just copy and > paste their code to get their results fast - hey thats smart in some > sense) You are arguing something different than I am. I have already conceded that PHP is not technically a sound language. But in the real world, it doesn't matter. What matters is, "How can I get my project done, so that it works" It doesn't matter what it looks like underneath. It matters what it looks like on top. It is a frosted cake made of human feces, but it is still looks delicious from 3 feet away. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
>> P.S. I don't particularly like PHP either, but our company website is >> coded in it because no other language (for the web) could have done the >> job at the same TCO. >> >> > > PHP is easy and cheap to start, so there are lots of programmers using > it, and someone like you, or any other company, can take a cheap > programmer to do the work. Most of programmer use it with mysql, now > this is the question to answerwhy? Easy, it was what PHP the project recommended until PHP 5. Also through the history of the project, MySQL developers (as in the actualy MySQL people) were also part of PHP. And no, Command Prompt's website does not use MySQL. > > Maybe there is something else that can be useful for PostgreSQL (this > list is about postgres right?). > > Now, comparing MySQL and PostgreSQL is something that maybe does not > make sensebut the question is why most newbies go to MySQL and not > PostgreSQL and say that MySQL is faster, better, easier and so on than > pgsql MySQL is faster, better, easier... out of the box for the applications that MySQL is good at, which is throw away data and websites. The key here is that MySQL and PostgreSQL do not compete any more than PostgreSQL and SQLLite. They are different beasts. They serve different purposes. > Why not put some examples with postgresql about that? for example for > OLTP with 2 GB RAM blah blah That isn't the purpose of reference documentation. It is the purpose of a tuning doc or howto and there have been plenty of those on the web. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > Just an idea > > Best regards > > Rodrigo > > ---(end of broadcast)--- > TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
Joshua D. Drake schrieb: Well no. PHP is not a professional language because it has no really design - and that has nothing to do with the fact it beeing a scripting language. Its a bad scripting language. (Say namespaces for example, confusing function interfaces, unicode flaws, missing usable frameworks, silly type handling, quoting hell) - What do you mean by confusing function interfaces and unicode flaws? This whole discussion is about a language lawyer and a professional. The reality is, professional programmers do use PHP. I would say probably more than any other language out there. Yes, by the definition that they earn money by doing it. Does that mean that PHP is a technically sound language? No. Does that mean some of these professional programmers are smarter than the language lawyers, because they can get their web apps done, quickly and have a huge community backing them up? Yes. Does that mean they would not write better apps in the same time if they were so smart using better languages and actual frameworks? Do we really need so many flawed PHP products regulary appear on bugtraq for the same reasons every time? (Since the many programmers there just copy and paste their code to get their results fast - hey thats smart in some sense) Use what works for you, don't listen to others about what language to code in. Yes but please dont open all these works for the public ;) Thanks postgres has not coding and project standards like PHP has, otherwise we would have a MySQL2 ;) T. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org/
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
Joshua D. Drake wrote: Well no. PHP is not a professional language because it has no really design - and that has nothing to do with the fact it beeing a scripting language. Its a bad scripting language. (Say namespaces for example, confusing function interfaces, unicode flaws, missing usable frameworks, silly type handling, quoting hell) - What do you mean by confusing function interfaces and unicode flaws? This whole discussion is about a language lawyer and a professional. The reality is, professional programmers do use PHP. I would say probably more than any other language out there. Does that mean that PHP is a technically sound language? No. Does that mean some of these professional programmers are smarter than the language lawyers, because they can get their web apps done, quickly and have a huge community backing them up? Yes. Use what works for you, don't listen to others about what language to code in. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake P.S. I don't particularly like PHP either, but our company website is coded in it because no other language (for the web) could have done the job at the same TCO. PHP is easy and cheap to start, so there are lots of programmers using it, and someone like you, or any other company, can take a cheap programmer to do the work. Most of programmer use it with mysql, now this is the question to answerwhy? Maybe there is something else that can be useful for PostgreSQL (this list is about postgres right?). Now, comparing MySQL and PostgreSQL is something that maybe does not make sensebut the question is why most newbies go to MySQL and not PostgreSQL and say that MySQL is faster, better, easier and so on than pgsql Answer for this is a bit complex, more newbies howtos, more people saying that is better and so on And I dont agree with that, but there is something I really think is good about mysql installation and postgresql should take. You have 4 or 5 or 6 (I dont remember) examples in doc when you install from package, or in contrib I think in source code.so anyone with just knowledge about his hardware and usage can tune it. Why not put some examples with postgresql about that? for example for OLTP with 2 GB RAM blah blah Just an idea Best regards Rodrigo ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
>> Well no. PHP is not a professional language because it has no really >> design - and that has nothing to do with the fact it beeing a scripting >> language. Its a bad scripting language. (Say namespaces for example, >> confusing function interfaces, unicode flaws, missing usable frameworks, >> silly type handling, quoting hell) > > - What do you mean by confusing function interfaces and unicode flaws? This whole discussion is about a language lawyer and a professional. The reality is, professional programmers do use PHP. I would say probably more than any other language out there. Does that mean that PHP is a technically sound language? No. Does that mean some of these professional programmers are smarter than the language lawyers, because they can get their web apps done, quickly and have a huge community backing them up? Yes. Use what works for you, don't listen to others about what language to code in. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake P.S. I don't particularly like PHP either, but our company website is coded in it because no other language (for the web) could have done the job at the same TCO. -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org/
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
Tino Wildenhain wrote: totally off topic, Tim Tassonis schrieb: Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 My definition is, "toy used/trumpeted by pseudo-professionals as a professional tool, when it just doesn't measure up". Boah, here surely speaks a true professional playing in the league of Donald Knuth or even Alan Kay, as opposed to all the pseudos like me out there. Is it Assembler or Smalltalk you write your web pages with? No, python, java ;) PHP absolutely is a professional tool as a scripting language, of course with all the downsides of any scripting language. I'll choose php over Well no. PHP is not a professional language because it has no really design - and that has nothing to do with the fact it beeing a scripting language. Its a bad scripting language. (Say namespaces for example, confusing function interfaces, unicode flaws, missing usable frameworks, silly type handling, quoting hell) - What do you mean by confusing function interfaces and unicode flaws? - A lot of "professional" languages don't support namespaces and frameworks are not part of a language, as I understand a language. I think we really have different ideas about professional, can you point me to a reference of your definition? I'd definitely say that php is not really an all-purpose language, but that doesn't make it unprofessional to me. C is not all-purpose, but still professional. Perl any day, as it is syntactically much cleaner and performs sufficiently well for usual scripting needs. ah... yes. Dont like perl either but its at least carrying some actual language design. Like what, as opposed to php? Of course, I wouldn't write an operating system with it. Would you write a language with it? :-) No, I actually solely write scripts with it :-) And web applications. Guess what most people use php for. Btw, "professional programmers" can indeed use funny languages - they are professional by they earning their living with it. I have yet to see an unfunny language. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org/
Re: [GENERAL] php professional
totally off topic, Tim Tassonis schrieb: Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 My definition is, "toy used/trumpeted by pseudo-professionals as a professional tool, when it just doesn't measure up". Boah, here surely speaks a true professional playing in the league of Donald Knuth or even Alan Kay, as opposed to all the pseudos like me out there. Is it Assembler or Smalltalk you write your web pages with? No, python, java ;) PHP absolutely is a professional tool as a scripting language, of course with all the downsides of any scripting language. I'll choose php over Well no. PHP is not a professional language because it has no really design - and that has nothing to do with the fact it beeing a scripting language. Its a bad scripting language. (Say namespaces for example, confusing function interfaces, unicode flaws, missing usable frameworks, silly type handling, quoting hell) Perl any day, as it is syntactically much cleaner and performs sufficiently well for usual scripting needs. ah... yes. Dont like perl either but its at least carrying some actual language design. Of course, I wouldn't write an operating system with it. Would you write a language with it? :-) Btw, "professional programmers" can indeed use funny languages - they are professional by they earning their living with it. T. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
