Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

[Stéphane Ducasse]

On May 5, 2011, at 8:47 AM, Markus Fritsche wrote:

> Hello Setf + list,
> 
> on the google project page it says that "sendig via email" is okay, in
> the document it says fax or, preferred, snail-mail - is it okay to
> email the license agreement? If yes, to which address?

mine.

Stef

> 
> Regards, Makrus
> 
> 2011/5/4 Stéphane Ducasse :
>> thanks alain!!!
>> did you sign the license agreement?
>> 
>> Setf
>> 
>> On May 4, 2011, at 10:28 PM, Alain_Rastoul wrote:
> 


Dr. Stéphane Ducasse -- Directeur de Recherche (Senior Researcher)
INRIA - USTL - CNRS UMR 8022
stephane.duca...@inria.fr
http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/
http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/
**NEW ***Tel 00 33 (0)3 20 43 42 56  - Fax 33 3 59 57 78 50

 "if you knew today was your last day on earth, what would you
 do different? ...  especially if,  by doing something different,
 today might not be your last day on earth" Calvin&Hobbes

European Smalltalk User Group: http://www.esug.org/
Open Source Smalltalks: http://www.pharo-project.org/
Moose Analysis platform: http://www.moosetechnology.org/

Re: [Pharo-project] Just starting out

[Douglas Brebner]

On 04/05/2011 08:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

On 05/04/2011 09:53 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:

On 04 May 2011, at 09:41, Toon Verwaest wrote:


On 05/04/2011 07:20 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
this is because they are forced to do so because of a new law in 
the us about crypto.

Believe they do not like that.

What law is that, and why? Sounds interesting :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States

Basically, encryption is a weapon.

Sven
Uncrackable encryption will allow drug lords, spies, terrorists and 
even violent gangs to communicate about their crimes and their 
conspiracies with impunity. We will lose one of the few remaining 
vulnerabilities of the worst criminals and terrorists upon which law 
enforcement depends to successfully investigate and often prevent the 
worst crimes.
For this reason, the law enforcement community is unanimous in calling 
for a balanced solution to this problem.





I have to wonder if the people behind this realise that public key 
encryption was originally invented in the UK, not the USA which makes 
export controls rather pointless :)

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

[Alain rastoul]

On Wed, 4 May 2011 23:40:59 +0200, Stéphane 
Ducasse wrote:

thanks alain!!!
did you sign the license agreement?
Not yet but I will no problem , I just have to find a printer and 
scanner and I send it to you



Setf




On May 4, 2011, at 10:28 PM, Alain_Rastoul wrote:




> Hi,
> 
> I have a changeset to fix most tests -all except one at this 

time- of =
Nile, 
> most of the red tests are the same errors related to 
NewParagraph, 

> NSTranscripter, so the changeset is very small but I don't the =
procedure to 
> submit a fix ?

> Do I add a comment to the issue at code.google with the attached =
changeset ?
> http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=4051
> 
> Do someone review the code (as I am new to Pharo and don't know 

much =
of Nile 
> , Transcripter ) ?
> Do someone - ... who? ... - incorporate the changeset in the 

sources  =
of the 
> package ?
> 
> TIA
> 
> Alain 
> 
> 
> 
>


--
Alain_rastoul

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Toon Verwaest]

Hi,

I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the 
language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better 
software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will 
look at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.


This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. 
As long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a 
billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other 
people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of 
learning Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that 
you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't 
more evolved and flexible :)


As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around 
Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn 
it; you'll come out for the better.


Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you 
take the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn 
to understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of 
industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was 
your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" 
making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of 
not using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't 
change anything :)


cheers,
Toon

On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:



Hi All,

I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a 
project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in 
Smalltalk.


I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is 
used in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its 
a DEAD


language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some 
clarification about it.



I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other 
OOPs Languages and what is the future prospect of


one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.

Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for 
working with Smalltalk.


Thanks&Regards,

Sourav Roy



Get Yourself a cool, short *@in.com* Email ID now! 

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

[Alain rastoul]

Keep on making Pharo, IMHO it's the best thing that happened to 
squeak since years - though I was very septic at the beginning
Last time I made a small demo to 2 of my collegues they didn't laugh 
- scouic - and were even impressed by smalltalk concepts


--
Alain_rastoul

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the 
> language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better 
> software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at 
> programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. 
> 
> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As 
> long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. 
> If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might 
> not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk 
> while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 
> 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
> 
> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around 
> Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; 
> you'll come out for the better.
> 
> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the 
> time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand 
> the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and 
> obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to 
> not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not 
> choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they 
> would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
> 
> cheers,
> Toon

Very well written, Toon!

And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know 
it and get it, you will never want to go back. 

You have been warned.

Sven

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Peter Hugosson-Miller]

On 5 maj 2011, at 10:07, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:

> 
> On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the 
>> language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better 
>> software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at 
>> programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. 
>> 
>> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As 
>> long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a 
>> billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other 
>> people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning 
>> Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat 
>> your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and 
>> flexible :)
>> 
>> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around 
>> Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; 
>> you'll come out for the better.
>> 
>> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take 
>> the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to 
>> understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry 
>> and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision 
>> to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people 
>> not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if 
>> they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>> 
>> cheers,
>> Toon
> 
> Very well written, Toon!
> 
> And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know 
> it and get it, you will never want to go back. 

This is all too true! :-/

--
Cheers,
Peter

> 
> You have been warned.
> 
> Sven
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Toon Verwaest]

Very well written, Toon!


Thanks!

And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know 
it and get it, you will never want to go back.


To say it in the words of people more famous than me:

"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is 
not worth knowing"

-- Alan Perlis

For me, Java and .NET have never really been worth knowing.

cheers,
Toon

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Johan Brichau]

That is a superb response, Toon! 
I could not agree more.

Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass 
productivity used by small technology startups ;-)

Johan

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the 
> language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better 
> software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at 
> programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. 
> 
> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As 
> long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. 
> If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might 
> not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk 
> while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 
> 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
> 
> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around 
> Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; 
> you'll come out for the better.
> 
> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the 
> time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand 
> the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and 
> obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to 
> not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not 
> choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they 
> would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
> 
> cheers,
> Toon
> 
> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project 
>> which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.
>> 
>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used 
>> in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>> 
>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification 
>> about it.
>> 
>> 
>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs 
>> Languages and what is the future prospect of
>> 
>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>> 
>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working 
>> with Smalltalk.
>> 
>> Thanks&Regards,
>> 
>> Sourav Roy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Carlo]

Hi

While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware 
starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET. 

To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so 
scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for 
someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is 
still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there 
is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) 
world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things 
but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's 
ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem.

My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained 
practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your 
career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and 
practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn 
from them to make you a better software engineer.
A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language.

BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa 
when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still...
Cheers
Carlo

On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote:

That is a superb response, Toon! 
I could not agree more.

Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass 
productivity used by small technology startups ;-)

Johan

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the 
> language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better 
> software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at 
> programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. 
> 
> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As 
> long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. 
> If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might 
> not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk 
> while working on other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 
> 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)
> 
> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around 
> Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; 
> you'll come out for the better.
> 
> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the 
> time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand 
> the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and 
> obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to 
> not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not 
> choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they 
> would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
> 
> cheers,
> Toon
> 
> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project 
>> which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.
>> 
>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used 
>> in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>> 
>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification 
>> about it.
>> 
>> 
>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs 
>> Languages and what is the future prospect of
>> 
>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>> 
>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working 
>> with Smalltalk.
>> 
>> Thanks&Regards,
>> 
>> Sourav Roy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Olivier Auverlot]

Le 05/05/11 10:07, Sven Van Caekenberghe a écrit :

And like you say, there is a danger: Smalltalk is the Red Pill, once you know 
it and get it, you will never want to go back


+1

Yes, it's true. I discovered Smalltalk since six month and I'm digitally 
addicted ;-)


Before, I thought that Smalltalk was a dinosaur but I was wrong. There 
are many projects, the community is really cool and the language is very 
impressive.


Olivier
www.auverlot.fr

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Tudor Girba]

Hi,

When people are asking me why I work in Smalltalk (especially after Moose 
presentations), I answer:
"It's great to have a competitive advantage that is hidden in plain sight :)"

Cheers,
Doru



On 5 May 2011, at 10:57, Johan Brichau wrote:

> That is a superb response, Toon! 
> I could not agree more.
> 
> Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass 
> productivity used by small technology startups ;-)
> 
> Johan
> 
> On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the 
>> language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better 
>> software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at 
>> programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. 
>> 
>> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As 
>> long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a 
>> billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other 
>> people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning 
>> Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat 
>> your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and 
>> flexible :)
>> 
>> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around 
>> Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; 
>> you'll come out for the better.
>> 
>> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take 
>> the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to 
>> understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry 
>> and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision 
>> to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people 
>> not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if 
>> they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>> 
>> cheers,
>> Toon
>> 
>> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi All,
>>> 
>>> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a 
>>> project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in 
>>> Smalltalk.
>>> 
>>> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used 
>>> in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>>> 
>>> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification 
>>> about it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs 
>>> Languages and what is the future prospect of
>>> 
>>> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>>> 
>>> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for 
>>> working with Smalltalk.
>>> 
>>> Thanks&Regards,
>>> 
>>> Sourav Roy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
>> 
> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"We can create beautiful models in a vacuum.
But, to get them effective we have to deal with the inconvenience of reality."

Re: [Pharo-project] Just starting out

[Camillo Bruni]

Reminds of the story of PGP where they could not export the algorithm directly, 
due to said restrictions. But what they did instead is printing a huge book and 
exporting the sources this way :D.

http://www.pgpi.org/pgpi/project/scanning/

camillo

On 2011-05-05, at 09:11, Douglas Brebner wrote:
> On 04/05/2011 08:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>> On 05/04/2011 09:53 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>>> On 04 May 2011, at 09:41, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>>> 
 On 05/04/2011 07:20 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> this is because they are forced to do so because of a new law in the us 
> about crypto.
> Believe they do not like that.
 What law is that, and why? Sounds interesting :)
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_in_the_United_States
>>> 
>>> Basically, encryption is a weapon.
>>> 
>>> Sven
>> Uncrackable encryption will allow drug lords, spies, terrorists and even 
>> violent gangs to communicate about their crimes and their conspiracies with 
>> impunity. We will lose one of the few remaining vulnerabilities of the worst 
>> criminals and terrorists upon which law enforcement depends to successfully 
>> investigate and often prevent the worst crimes.
>> For this reason, the law enforcement community is unanimous in calling for a 
>> balanced solution to this problem.
>> 
>> 
> 
> I have to wonder if the people behind this realise that public key encryption 
> was originally invented in the UK, not the USA which makes export controls 
> rather pointless :)
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[sourav roy]

Hi Toon, I agreeto what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i 
need lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other 
mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from which i 
can get some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is quite vast and 
different in structure from the other mail(with my two month experiance and i 
may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper guidance to get his hands over 
smalltalk. So, i just request you to kindly guide me to how should i get into 
smalltalk. Thanks&Regards, Sourav  Original message From:"Toon Verwaest"< 
toon.verwa...@gmail.com >Date: 5 May 11 13:29:11Subject: Re: [Pharoproject] 
Popularity of Smalltalk in Software IndustryTo: 
pharoproj...@lists.gforge.inria.frhi,I can tell you that independent of how the 
industry might perceive the language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make 
you personally a better software engineer. And this is what the industry does 
want. You will look at prog
 ramming from a new angle and this will give you an edge. This is also true for 
learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long as you stay within 
your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you learn Smalltalk, 
the fact you know something that other people might not makes you more special. 
The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on other types of 
applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / 
.NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)As it seems that you are already 
working on a project revolving around Smalltalk, be very happy that you are 
getting the opportunity to learn it; you'll come out for the better.Lastly, 
don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to 
learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the 
differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously 
don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision to no
 t know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people not 
choose Smalltalk based on your (non)choice of not using Smalltalk; if they 
would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)cheers,ToonOn 
05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:Hi All, I have just started my career in 
Software/IT industry and got into a project which involes 
enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk. I was never exposed to 
this language before and have no idea if it is used in the Industry as 
popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEADlanguage for the industry. 
I may be wrong but i need some clarification about it. I just want to know that 
why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs Languages and what is the 
future prospect ofone if he/she is into Smalltalk development.Looking for some 
positive note so that it may give me some entho for working with Smalltalk. 
Thanks&Regards, Sourav Roy Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!Get 
Yourself a cool
 , short @in.com Email ID now!

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Nick Ager]

Hi Sourav,

Laurent's Pharocasts (http://www.pharocasts.com) are a great place to start.
Here are a couple to get you started:

http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/08/install-pharo-on-windows.html
http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/learn-smalltalk-with-profstef.html


Good luck and welcome

Nick

On 5 May 2011 11:12, sourav roy  wrote:

> Hi Toon,
>
> I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i need
> lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other mainstream
> languages there are not much documents or professional from which i can get
> some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is quite vast and different
> in structure from the other mail(with my two month experiance and i may be
> wrong), a beginner needs some proper guidance to get his hands over
> smalltalk. So, i just request you to kindly guide me to how should i get
> into smalltalk.
>
> Thanks&Regards,
>
> Sourav
>
>
> -- Original message --
> From:"Toon Verwaest"< toon.verwa...@gmail.com >
> Date: 5 May 11 13:29:11
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry
> To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
>
> Hi,
>
> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the
> language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better
> software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at
> programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>
> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As
> long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a
> billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other
> people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning
> Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat
> your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more ev olved and
> flexible :)
>
>
> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around
> Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it;
> you'll come out for the better.
>
> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take
> the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to
> understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of industry
> and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your decision
> to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other people
> not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using Smalltalk; if
> they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>
> cheers,
> Toon
>
> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a
> project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in
> Smalltalk.
>
> I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used
> in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
>
> language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification
> about it.
>
>
> I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs
> Languages and what is the future prospect of
>
> one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
>
> Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for
> working with Smalltalk.
>
> Thanks&Regards,
>
> Sourav Roy
>
>
> Get Yourself a cool, short *@in.com* Email ID 
> now!
>
>
>
>
> Get Yourself a cool, short *@in.com* Email ID 
> now!
>

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Henrik Sperre Johansen]

On 05.05.2011 12:12, sourav roy wrote:


Hi Toon,

I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i 
need lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other 
mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from 
which i can get some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is 
quite vast and different in structure from the other mail(with my two 
month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper 
guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you to 
kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk.


Thanks&Regards,

Sourav



The Daily podcasts James Robertson made while at Cincom are also 
available, covering a wide range of topics (in VW ST at least), from 
familiarizing with the tools, to use of specific libraries:

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/developer-community/tutorials/

He's also made (re)made alot of the introductory ones for multiple 
different dialects:

http://jarober.com/blog/st4u.ssp

Cheers,
Henry

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

[Stéphane Ducasse]

> Keep on making Pharo, IMHO it's the best thing that happened to squeak since 
> years - though I was very septic at the beginning
> Last time I made a small demo to 2 of my collegues they didn't laugh - scouic 
> - and were even impressed by smalltalk concepts

Thanks *a lot* alain. 
we **know** what you think. We were teaching Smalltalk to students and look 
like idiots
during years. I should be one of the person that demoed a *lot* smalltalk and 
got burned.
I could impose Smalltalk in some places because of my strong large cv.

As we already said we invested a lot in Squeak (I wrote three books = 4 years 
to write one) and a lot of things.
For my job people were laughing: oh you are doing Smalltalk, little smile = you 
are an idiot while I'm the french which published the most in OOPSLA but this 
did not count. and this was a problem for me to get a
job. I can continue the long list like that. So doing pharo was not an easy 
decision: it was pharo or ruby or python or lua.
I hope that we did not make the wrong choice - I'm not joking. 

Now for pharo we have a vision:
We want a system to invent the next one and that people can make a 
living with it. 
- bootstrappable
- clean lean robust
- (ideally) good interface with C
- (ideally) a lovely fast readable documentd extensible VM
- good infrastructure
- meta model for code
- browser for remote/crosscompilation/default browsing
- new compiler
- first class instance variable
- new network layer
- new graphics 
- new module system

At the end it may not be Smalltalk but it will be the same spirit. I think that 
we are slowly getting to the point
where we will start to invent new things instead of just removing old 
experiences.

Stef

Re: [Pharo-project] [COTDC] 59 - HierarchicalURI

[Cédrick Béler]

part taken from URI class comment:

"A hierarchical URI is either an absolute URI whose scheme-specific part begins 
with a slash character, or a relative URI, that is, a URI that does not specify 
a scheme. Some examples of hierarchical URIs are:

http://www.pharo-project.org/home
file:///~/calendar

A hierarchical URI is subject to further parsing according to the syntax
[scheme:][//authority][path][?query][#fragment]
where the characters :, /, ?, and # stand for themselves. The scheme-specific 
part of a hierarchical URI consists of the characters between the scheme and 
fragment parts.

The authority part of a hierarchical URI is, if specified, either server-based 
or registry-based. A server-based authority parses according to the  syntax
[user-info@]host[:port]
where the characters @ and : stand for themselves. Nearly all URI schemes 
currently in use are server-based. An authority part that does not parse in 
this way is considered to be registry-based.

The path component of a hierarchical URI is itself said to be absolute if it 
begins with a slash character ('/'); otherwise it is relative. The path of a 
hierarchical URI that is either absolute or specifies an authority is always 
absolute."


Le 4 mai 2011 à 21:20, laurent laffont a écrit :

> Today:  HierarchicalURI
> 
> 
> Comment Of The Day Contest - One Day One Comment
> Rules: 
> #1: Each day a not commented class is elected. Each day the best comment will 
> be integrated with name of the author(s).
> #2: If you cannot comment it, deprecate it.
> Results: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest
> 
> Laurent

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Mariano Martinez Peck]

Books:  Pharo By Example: http://pharobyexample.org/
http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Henrik Sperre Johansen <
henrik.s.johan...@veloxit.no> wrote:

> On 05.05.2011 12:12, sourav roy wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Toon,
>>
>> I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i need
>> lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other mainstream
>> languages there are not much documents or professional from which i can get
>> some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is quite vast and different
>> in structure from the other mail(with my two month experiance and i may be
>> wrong), a beginner needs some proper guidance to get his hands over
>> smalltalk. So, i just request you to kindly guide me to how should i get
>> into smalltalk.
>>
>> Thanks&Regards,
>>
>> Sourav
>>
>>
> The Daily podcasts James Robertson made while at Cincom are also available,
> covering a wide range of topics (in VW ST at least), from familiarizing with
> the tools, to use of specific libraries:
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/developer-community/tutorials/
>
> He's also made (re)made alot of the introductory ones for multiple
> different dialects:
> http://jarober.com/blog/st4u.ssp
>
> Cheers,
> Henry
>
>


-- 
Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

[Douglas Brebner]

On 05/05/2011 12:45, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:


Now for pharo we have a vision:
We want a system to invent the next one and that people can make a 
living with it.
- bootstrappable
- clean lean robust
- (ideally) good interface with C
- (ideally) a lovely fast readable documentd extensible VM
- good infrastructure
- meta model for code
- browser for remote/crosscompilation/default browsing
- new compiler
- first class instance variable
- new network layer
- new graphics
- new module system

At the end it may not be Smalltalk but it will be the same spirit. I think that 
we are slowly getting to the point
where we will start to invent new things instead of just removing old 
experiences.



I rather believe it will be Smalltalk. After all, consider how different 
each step of ST-72 to ST-80 was from each other, yet they were all still 
Smalltalk.

[Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Igor Stasenko]

Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
tab all the time
while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
inserts cr into text.

So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.


OController-handleKeystrokeBeforeeditor.st
Description: Binary data

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Toon Verwaest]

On 05/05/2011 12:12 PM, sourav roy wrote:


Hi Toon,

I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i 
need lot of help to get a good grip over it and moreover unlike other 
mainstream languages there are not much documents or professional from 
which i can get some guidance about it. And i feel as Smalltalk is 
quite vast and different in structure from the other mail(with my two 
month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs some proper 
guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you to 
kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk.


Thanks&Regards,

Sourav

In addition to the links that were sent to you, this mailing list is a 
good access point to get the information you might need.


I don't know where you are based exactly, but you might be able to find 
people in your neighborhood that can help you out. If you live close to 
Bern, CH; you are always welcome to pass by my office and I can give you 
a tutoring session when you are stuck ;) Or you can just follow the 
Smalltalk course at our university.


I'm pretty sure other people are open to helping you as well.

cheers,
Toon

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

[Toon Verwaest]

I rather believe it will be Smalltalk. After all, consider how 
different each step of ST-72 to ST-80 was from each other, yet they 
were all still Smalltalk.



What -IS- Smalltalk?
{insert a whole philosophical discourse here}

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Dave Mason]

On May 5, 2011, at 06:12, sourav roy wrote:

> I agree to what have you said but as i am a beginner to smalltalk i need lot 
> of help to get a good grip over it

I was talking with one of my grad students yesterday, who was in a similar boat.

A big difference between Smalltalk and Java/C# (and worse, C++) is that it has 
a minimalist syntax.  If you have been programming in those syntaxy languages, 
you have grown to pattern-match that syntax to give you the structure of a 
method.  In Smalltalk, everything is a message send to some object (except 
assignment and return, and ignoring internal compiler optimizations) - so 
figuring out what is going on is a matter of following the message sends.

Another big difference is that classes are objects too, so 'self' could be a 
class or an instance.  This is a big advantage, but initially can make it 
harder to follow the message send trail.  Pay attention to whether you're 
looking at a class method or an instance method.

A third big difference is that the class hierarchy is much, much, richer, so 
messages are often sent to methods that are defined in super-classes or 
sub-classes of the method you're currently looking at.  This is particularly 
true for class methods, because there isn't any inheritance of class methods in 
the syntaxy languages.  You may find the hierarchy browser to be a good friend 
here.  Hierarchies in the syntaxy languages are usually <=3 deep.  In 
Smalltalk, 8-10 is not unusual.

Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based.  That means all the code is 
there for you to look at - you just have to find it!  Because the code (the 
ultimate documentation :-) is there, it has meant that documentation has been 
seen as less important. The Pharo community has been working to address that, 
both in books and in internal documentation (see the COTD postings)

> and moreover unlike other mainstream languages there are not much documents 
> or professional from which i can get some guidance about it.

As others have pointed out, there actually is quite a bit... just not from 
Amazon.

> And i feel as Smalltalk is quite vast and different in structure from the 
> other mail(with my two month experiance and i may be wrong), a beginner needs 
> some proper guidance to get his hands over smalltalk. So, i just request you 
> to kindly guide me to how should i get into smalltalk.

Hope this helps.

As others have said, Smalltalk is worth it - it will make you a better 
programmer.  As will several other languages, most of which you'll find 
discussed on the lambda-the-ultimate.org blog.

../Dave

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Toon Verwaest]

I do agree in the current setup. That's why I'm working very hard on 
changing this. I want Smalltalk to be completely compatible at all 
levels with other languages, so that we can use their libraries rather 
than having to rewrite them.


I'm working on it. Stay tuned ;)

On 05/05/2011 11:42 AM, Carlo wrote:

Hi

While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware 
starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET.

To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are so 
scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits but, for 
someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be best. It is 
still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale integration and there 
is a serious lack of libraries; something that the Java and .NET (even Ruby) 
world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That Smalltalk can't do these things 
but rather that it is more difficult to integrate with the outside world; it's 
ecosystem is small compared to the J2EE ecosystem.

My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've gained 
practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to take your 
career. During this time you should be looking at other languages and 
practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and learn 
from them to make you a better software engineer.
A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language.

BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South Africa 
when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still...
Cheers
Carlo

On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote:

That is a superb response, Toon!
I could not agree more.

Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass 
productivity used by small technology startups ;-)

Johan

On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:


Hi,

I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the language 
Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better software 
engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look at programming 
from a new angle and this will give you an edge.

This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As long 
as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a billion. If you 
learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other people might not makes 
you more special. The only negative part of learning Smalltalk while working on 
other types of applications is that you will eat your shoe 95% of the time 
hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and flexible :)

As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around 
Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; 
you'll come out for the better.

Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take the time to 
learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to understand the differences 
yourself. You are currently also part of industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well 
yet; how informed was your decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the 
industry" making other people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not 
using Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)

cheers,
Toon

On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:

Hi All,

I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a project 
which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in Smalltalk.

I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used in 
the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD

language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification about 
it.


I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs 
Languages and what is the future prospect of

one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.

Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for working 
with Smalltalk.

Thanks&Regards,

Sourav Roy



Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Luc Fabresse]

Thanks Igor!
I always type enter ;-)

#Luc



2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko 

> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
> tab all the time
> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
> inserts cr into text.
>
> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Igor Stasenko]

i haven't filed a ticket, because i was not sure what is the
motivation why enter cannot
serve for autocompletion as well as tab.

On 5 May 2011 16:18, Luc Fabresse  wrote:
>
> Thanks Igor!
> I always type enter ;-)
>
> #Luc
>
>
>
> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko 
>>
>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
>> tab all the time
>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
>> inserts cr into text.
>>
>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Esteban Lorenzano]

as a side note... most of my students (and some of the teachers, like Nicolás, 
he) always complains about the "tab" instead "enter" thing :)

El 05/05/2011, a las 11:27a.m., Igor Stasenko escribió:

> i haven't filed a ticket, because i was not sure what is the
> motivation why enter cannot
> serve for autocompletion as well as tab.
> 
> On 5 May 2011 16:18, Luc Fabresse  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Igor!
>> I always type enter ;-)
>> 
>> #Luc
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko 
>>> 
>>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
>>> tab all the time
>>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
>>> inserts cr into text.
>>> 
>>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
>>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Serge Stinckwich]

Le 5 mai 2011 à 21:18, Luc Fabresse  a écrit :

> 
> Thanks Igor!
> I always type enter ;-)
> 
> #Luc
> 

+1 !


> 
> 
> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko 
> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
> tab all the time
> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
> inserts cr into text.
> 
> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

[Stéphane Ducasse]

your definition is ok for me :)

>> 
>> Now for pharo we have a vision:
>>  We want a system to invent the next one and that people can make a 
>> living with it.
>>  - bootstrappable
>>  - clean lean robust
>>  - (ideally) good interface with C
>>  - (ideally) a lovely fast readable documentd extensible VM
>>  - good infrastructure
>>  - meta model for code
>>  - browser for remote/crosscompilation/default browsing
>>  - new compiler
>>  - first class instance variable
>>  - new network layer
>>  - new graphics
>>  - new module system
>> 
>> At the end it may not be Smalltalk but it will be the same spirit. I think 
>> that we are slowly getting to the point
>> where we will start to invent new things instead of just removing old 
>> experiences.
>> 
> 
> I rather believe it will be Smalltalk. After all, consider how different each 
> step of ST-72 to ST-80 was from each other, yet they were all still Smalltalk.
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Serge Stinckwich]

Le 5 mai 2011 à 20:09, Toon Verwaest  a écrit :

> I do agree in the current setup. That's why I'm working very hard on changing 
> this. I want Smalltalk to be completely compatible at all levels with other 
> languages, so that we can use their libraries rather than having to rewrite 
> them.
> 
> I'm working on it. Stay tuned ;)
> 

Whaooo ! 
Smalltalk as an universal syntax too access all the libraries. What a great 
perspective :-)


> On 05/05/2011 11:42 AM, Carlo wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> While I agree with everyone's sentiments I think that practically If I ware 
>> starting my career off again I would still go into Java or .NET.
>> 
>> To get a job as a Smalltalk developer is difficult simply because they are 
>> so scarce. Yes technically Smalltalk has design and philosophical merits 
>> but, for someone starting their career, a more mainstream language would be 
>> best. It is still too difficult to make Smalltalk do enterprise scale 
>> integration and there is a serious lack of libraries; something that the 
>> Java and .NET (even Ruby) world does not suffer from. i'm not saying That 
>> Smalltalk can't do these things but rather that it is more difficult to 
>> integrate with the outside world; it's ecosystem is small compared to the 
>> J2EE ecosystem.
>> 
>> My advice would be to start off with Java or .NET and then when you've 
>> gained practical development experience (+-5 years) decide where you want to 
>> take your career. During this time you should be looking at other languages 
>> and practices, such as Smalltalk, software methodologies, DDD, FP etc, and 
>> learn from them to make you a better software engineer.
>> A career in development is so much more than simply the programming language.
>> 
>> BTW I'm still regretting not taking a Smalltalk position here in South 
>> Africa when I had the chance :) Maybe I will still...
>> Cheers
>> Carlo
>> 
>> On 05 May 2011, at 10:57 AM, Johan Brichau wrote:
>> 
>> That is a superb response, Toon!
>> I could not agree more.
>> 
>> Let me add to that Smalltalk is not dead. It's the stealth weapon of mass 
>> productivity used by small technology startups ;-)
>> 
>> Johan
>> 
>> On 05 May 2011, at 09:58, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I can tell you that independent of how the industry might perceive the 
>>> language Smalltalk, learning Smalltalk will make you personally a better 
>>> software engineer. And this is what the industry does want. You will look 
>>> at programming from a new angle and this will give you an edge.
>>> 
>>> This is also true for learning other old languages like Scheme or Lisp. As 
>>> long as you stay within your Java / .NET bubble you will be one in a 
>>> billion. If you learn Smalltalk, the fact you know something that other 
>>> people might not makes you more special. The only negative part of learning 
>>> Smalltalk while working on other types of applications is that you will eat 
>>> your shoe 95% of the time hating that Java / .NET aren't more evolved and 
>>> flexible :)
>>> 
>>> As it seems that you are already working on a project revolving around 
>>> Smalltalk, be very happy that you are getting the opportunity to learn it; 
>>> you'll come out for the better.
>>> 
>>> Lastly, don't care too much about popularity within industry. If you take 
>>> the time to learn the systems for yourself you will probably learn to 
>>> understand the differences yourself. You are currently also part of 
>>> industry and obviously don't know Smalltalk well yet; how informed was your 
>>> decision to not know Smalltalk? You are part of "the industry" making other 
>>> people not choose Smalltalk based on your (non-)choice of not using 
>>> Smalltalk; if they would all think this way! Sheep won't change anything :)
>>> 
>>> cheers,
>>> Toon
>>> 
>>> On 05/05/2011 07:38 AM, sourav roy wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 I have just started my career in Software/IT industry and got into a 
 project which involes enhancement/maintainance of product built in 
 Smalltalk.
 
 I was never exposed to this language before and have no idea if it is used 
 in the Industry as popularly as JAVA and .NET and looks like its a DEAD
 
 language for the industry. I may be wrong but i need some clarification 
 about it.
 
 
 I just want to know that why smalltalk is not so popular as the other OOPs 
 Languages and what is the future prospect of
 
 one if he/she is into Smalltalk development.
 
 Looking for some positive note so that it may give me some entho for 
 working with Smalltalk.
 
 Thanks&Regards,
 
 Sourav Roy
 
 
 
 Get Yourself a cool, short @in.com Email ID now!
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Cédrick Béler]

> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...

...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of 
Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test 
driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code 
what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not 
only a language as somebody said lately).

Cédrick

[1] see in particular this webcast: 
http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Toon Verwaest]

On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, Cédrick Béler wrote:



Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...


...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge 
benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly 
debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where you 
can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when you 
need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as somebody 
said lately).


Cédrick

[1] see in particular this webcast: 
http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html
Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see 
how it would work without an image:


I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my 
application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection 
at my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I 
just let the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the 
executable flag and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C.


This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger 
implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this 
wouldn't work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet 
(those lazy bastards).

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Jimmie Houchin]

On 5/5/2011 7:53 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
tab all the time
while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
inserts cr into text.

So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr


+1

I would love to see this incorporated. It makes autocomplete similar to 
what I find in other places, like NetBeans, OpenOffice/LibreOffice and 
such. It makes the context switch between apps effortless instead of 
requiring a transition period where I go oh yeah, that's how it works here.


Thanks.

Jimmie

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Thierry Lebourque]

That is really great!
Many thanks

2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko :
> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
> tab all the time
> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
> inserts cr into text.
>
> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Cédrick Béler]

Le 5 mai 2011 à 17:32, Toon Verwaest a écrit :

> On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, Cédrick Béler wrote:
>> 
>>> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...
>> 
>> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of 
>> Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test 
>> driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code 
>> what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not 
>> only a language as somebody said lately).
>> 
>> Cédrick
>> 
>> [1] see in particular this webcast: 
>> http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html
> Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see how it 
> would work without an image:
> 
> I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my application, 
> and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection at my disposal 
> while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I just let the GCC 
> library compile some C code for me; I turn on the executable flag and 
> whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C.
> 
> This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger 
> implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't 
> work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy 
> bastards).

ok, true :)

but, it's not only the debugger... getting senders, implementers, class that 
use it, methods that contains this word, ...
of course, this is doable with files (see eclipse *sigh*), but I prefer the 
snappy feeling of an image for that...

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Camillo Bruni]

On 2011-05-05, at 17:39, Cédrick Béler wrote:

> 
> Le 5 mai 2011 à 17:32, Toon Verwaest a écrit :
> 
>> On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, Cédrick Béler wrote:
>>> 
 Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...
>>> 
>>> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** 
>>> of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also 
>>> test driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code 
>>> and code what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live 
>>> system, not only a language as somebody said lately).
>>> 
>>> Cédrick
>>> 
>>> [1] see in particular this webcast: 
>>> http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html
>> Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see how 
>> it would work without an image:
>> 
>> I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my 
>> application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection at 
>> my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I just let 
>> the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the executable flag 
>> and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C.
>> 
>> This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger 
>> implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't 
>> work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy 
>> bastards).
> 
> ok, true :)
> 
> but, it's not only the debugger... getting senders, implementers, class that 
> use it, methods that contains this word, ...
> of course, this is doable with files (see eclipse *sigh*), but I prefer the 
> snappy feeling of an image for that...

the snappiness could be easily achieved with a fulltext search index (just look 
how fast spotlight works on a couple of millions of files on my machine...)
The main issue of the image, is that it locks you out, making it close to 
impossible to use other tools than smalltalk.
Though the nice thing about the image is that you can start up your IDE in less 
than a second, and again, this is not necessarily linked to Smalltalk and could 
be achieved for C programs as well. 

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Dave Mason]

On May 5, 2011, at 11:32, Toon Verwaest wrote:

> This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger 
> implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't 
> work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy 
> bastards).

... and that it's an order of magnitude more difficult!

Yes, there are certainly other aspects of being image-based that are way cool, 
but iterative code development and debugging is a big part of it.

(I am teaching a Java course right now with BlueJ, which is a cool environment 
(at least if you're not used to an image-based system like Smalltalk).  It 
provides a little UML diagram of your classes, and you can create an object by 
clicking on the appropriate class, and inspect, and call methods.  Objects that 
you create appear on a "workbench".  So I had build up a little example with a 
few objects, found a bug, and edited the class, hit "compile" and *poof* empty 
workbench.  Yes, in Java they probably could have emulated the image, but it's 
a lot of work!)

../Dave

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Mariano Martinez Peck]

+1.  I will commit it to OCompletion and then update
ConfigurationOfOCompletion.


On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Thierry Lebourque  wrote:

> That is really great!
> Many thanks
>
> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko :
> > Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
> > tab all the time
> > while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
> > inserts cr into text.
> >
> > So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
> > suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> >
>
>


-- 
Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Toon Verwaest]

On 05/05/2011 05:46 PM, Dave Mason wrote:

On May 5, 2011, at 11:32, Toon Verwaest wrote:


This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger 
implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't work 
for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy bastards).

... and that it's an order of magnitude more difficult!

Yes, there are certainly other aspects of being image-based that are way cool, 
but iterative code development and debugging is a big part of it.

(I am teaching a Java course right now with BlueJ, which is a cool environment (at least if you're 
not used to an image-based system like Smalltalk).  It provides a little UML diagram of your 
classes, and you can create an object by clicking on the appropriate class, and inspect, and call 
methods.  Objects that you create appear on a "workbench".  So I had build up a little 
example with a few objects, found a bug, and edited the class, hit "compile" and *poof* 
empty workbench.  Yes, in Java they probably could have emulated the image, but it's a lot of work!)

../Dave
It's more difficult because it's not integrated yet. Suppose that this 
was already integrated within GDB? Suppose GDB looked like a Smalltalk 
debugger? Is there anything technical that stands in your way?


C is annoying for many other reasons, but not for that one.

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

[Miguel Cobá]

This workaround is valid although not less a workaround.

The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific
uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages
integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package
there but it wont belongs to there really.

This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with
specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility
repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their
install procedures. That would be better.

Now, lets remember that for Pharo at lease, backwards compatibility is a
"great to have" feature not a "must have at all means" feature. So if
sometime, with some release, current or future, a break with the past is
to be made, it will be made. That is for sure. There can be a few people
that will be affected by this (in this case that they can't install
something just like they could yesterday, but hey, this is life, as
Markus said, no progress is to be dead already) but the majority won't
care/will be happier because it is always better for a few persons to
fix some problems than the entire project to stall waiting to be all for
everyone and always.

The changes of core libraries, (collections, kernel, etc) almost sure be
ported to pharo from squeak and if some package release can't work
because of a missing library in Squeak not yet in Pharo that won't be a
big problem. Next release will work, when Pharo has the fixes. We don't
worry, one step a time. And nobody has died by waiting a little for some
wanted feature.

So in the end, I think that this is a non-issue, just a minor effect of
the vision of Pharo that is solved with a little of time and patience.

Other thing, we really don't like changesets or gofer scripts for
installing anything on Pharo (even if we really like gofer). Why?
Because they aren't a package management system. The end result could be
the same: the packages are installed in the system, that is granted, but
the capability of Metacello of declaring which other configurations it
depends on and the one of querying the configuration to see the full
list of packages to be installed is something that no gofer script,
installer script or SqueakMap feature can handle right now without
downloading everything to check.

Regards

El mié, 04-05-2011 a las 21:35 -0500, Chris Muller escribió:
> To support Magma 1.2, I introduced some changes to OrderedCollection
> into the Squeak trunk some time ago.  To deliver Magma to Pharo users,
> I needed to have these same enhancements in Pharo 1.1 and 1.2.  But
> they were already released, so how was this solved?
> 
> My first instinct was to deliver a change-set; the classical way to
> modify the system.  But I know dirty packages are unattractive, and
> besides that the only way to achieve one-click load of something
> involving a change-set + MC-packages in Pharo is with a SAR - overkill
> since Magma is just MC packages; no resources.  I really wanted to
> release Magma 1.2 to Pharo with just a Gofer script.
> 
> So, I decided to import the same changes I made to Squeak's
> OrderedCollection into Pharo's and then save that new version to the
> Inbox and adjusted my Gofer script for loading Magma to merge that
> version of Collections from repositories:  Pharo, Inbox, TreatedInbox.
> 
> I knew they would accept it, thank you Pharo, BUT it's nice to know
> that I could actually deliver my application without having to wait
> for it to be integrated, or worry even if it didn't get accepted; that
> chain of repositories should work immediately and forever, no matter
> the outcome of acceptance.
> 
> Thanks to MC merging, this is as unintrusive as it can be; in case
> someone runs with their own "personalizations" to the Collections
> package, loading Magma won't clobber them; nor will updating with
> official Pharo-released patches, because those are merged too.
> 
> With the context of this experience, I came to view the "Treated"
> repository with a new respect; enabling a non-core developer to
> personalize system packages for my application..
> 
>  - Chris
> 

-- 
Miguel Cobá
http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz
http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Tudor Girba]

Hi,

This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward.

We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a 
reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written 
on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like this 
in Glamour:

...
a tree 
display: [ ... ]

After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the 
attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced 
with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want.

The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and 
this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is 
only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no danger 
of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text.


Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has two 
modes:
1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and
2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion 
item.

For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is 
probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are 
not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict.

Cheers,
Doru


<>



On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote:

> That is really great!
> Many thanks
> 
> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko :
>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
>> tab all the time
>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
>> inserts cr into text.
>> 
>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
>> 
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."

Re: [Pharo-project] new Cog VMs uploaded

[Eliot Miranda]

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Igor Stasenko  wrote:

> On 4 May 2011 23:39, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
> > Hi chris
> >
> >
> >> You should be able to extract the code and use it in Pharo/Squeak
> >> without issue, even if it is GPL.  What you can't do is include it in
> >> the distribution, since it isn't MIT.  You also shouldn't study the
> >> code and write your own version of it - I believe that would be a
> >> derivative work, which would likely make it a GPL derivative.
> >
> > so it does not exist and this is better because GPL is viral and we do
> not want it.
> >
>
> I finding it really funny that GPL were invented to help open-source
> to rise and spread,
> and now its just stands in your way, as any other closed-source
> proprietary one...
>
> >> However, if it was extracted, and you brought it in to do profiling,
> >> and then removed it afterwards, that shouldn't be an issue at all.
> >> Just remember to remove it after you no longer need it - that way the
> >> GPL code won't accidentally creep into the Pharo/Squeak code-base.
> >>
> >> Basically, this would be a great example of a project that should be
> >> an external project and not part of core (or dev).
> >
> > the problem is that this kind of philosophy goes against the spirit of
> smalltalk
> > of been able to read and learn the code and modify it.
>
>
> I think that Teleplace has not much choice under which license to
> release this code,
> because as long as you using even portion of GPL-ed code, you are
> forced to use GPL as well.
>

You have it backwards.  There is *no* GPL code in OpenQwaq.  If there had
been the whole project would have had to become GPL and Teleplace could not
have protected itself against others using the code.  By releasing the code
as GPL Teleplace's investors retain the sole commercial rights to the code.
 No-one else can use the code without their contributions becoming GPL.
 Hence no-one wanting to do commercial development using OpenQwaq can do so
and protect their contributions.  Teleplace's investors, however, /can/
subsequently sell or exploit commercial rights to the code, which they still
hold.


>
> >>
> >> -Chris
> >>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>

Re: [Pharo-project] new Cog VMs uploaded

[Toon Verwaest]

You have it backwards.  There is *no* GPL code in OpenQwaq.  If there 
had been the whole project would have had to become GPL and Teleplace 
could not have protected itself against others using the code.  By 
releasing the code as GPL Teleplace's investors retain the sole 
commercial rights to the code.  No-one else can use the code without 
their contributions becoming GPL.  Hence no-one wanting to do 
commercial development using OpenQwaq can do so and protect their 
contributions.  Teleplace's investors, however, /can/ subsequently 
sell or exploit commercial rights to the code, which they still hold.

A policy that even Richard Stallman sees as good use of GPL...

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Luc Fabresse]

2011/5/5 Tudor Girba 

> Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has
> two modes:
> 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and
> 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion
> item.
>
> For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is
> probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you
> are not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict.
>

Yes Doru.
My problem is always in the second case.

Cheers,

#Luc


> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote:
>
> > That is really great!
> > Many thanks
> >
> > 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko :
> >> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
> >> tab all the time
> >> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
> >> inserts cr into text.
> >>
> >> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
> >> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
> >>
> >> --
> >> Best regards,
> >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> >>
> >
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
>
> "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Alexandre Bergel]

+1
Well said Doru

Alexandre


On 5 May 2011, at 12:00, Tudor Girba wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward.
> 
> We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a 
> reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written 
> on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like 
> this in Glamour:
> 
> ...
>   a tree 
>   display: [ ... ]
> 
> After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the 
> attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced 
> with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want.
> 
> The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and 
> this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is 
> only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no 
> danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text.
> 
> 
> Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has 
> two modes:
> 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and
> 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion 
> item.
> 
> For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is 
> probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are 
> not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict.
> 
> Cheers,
> Doru
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote:
> 
>> That is really great!
>> Many thanks
>> 
>> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko :
>>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
>>> tab all the time
>>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
>>> inserts cr into text.
>>> 
>>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
>>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> 
> "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
> 

-- 
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Igor Stasenko]

On 5 May 2011 18:00, Tudor Girba  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward.
>
> We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a 
> reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written 
> on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like 
> this in Glamour:
>
> ...
>        a tree
>                display: [ ... ]
>
> After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the 
> attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced 
> with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want.
>
> The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and 
> this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is 
> only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no 
> danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text.
>

This is not a problem for me, because first i typing the expression
and then formatting it properly if necessary.
Also, in case as you shown, one could simply type 'space' then 'enter'
so discard the suggestion and begin from a new line.

>
> Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has 
> two modes:
> 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and
> 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion 
> item.
>

i agree, a completion should be non-intrusive (by default it should
handle enter as carriage return,
but if you selected an item (using up/down keys), then it should paste
the selection instead).
But as i said, i having a habit to use enter, when i see a popup menu
and hilighted menu item selected instead of tab.

> For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is 
> probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are 
> not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict.
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Jimmie Houchin]

On 5/5/2011 10:32 AM, Toon Verwaest wrote:

On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, Cédrick Béler wrote:

Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...


...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge 
benefit** of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly 
debbuging... and also test driven development (real one [1]) where 
you can run incomplete code and code what's missing iteratively when 
you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not only a language as 
somebody said lately).


Cédrick

[1] see in particular this webcast: 
http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html
Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see 
how it would work without an image:


I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my 
application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler 
collection at my disposal while running. While debugging (at some 
breakpoint) I just let the GCC library compile some C code for me; I 
turn on the executable flag and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like 
debugger for C.


This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great 
debugger implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why 
this wouldn't work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it 
yet (those lazy bastards).


Disclaimer, I am not a professional programmer and I have not programmed 
in C or any other static compiled language at all. So I may not have any 
idea what I am talking about. :)


What I don't see in your example, but what I experience in my 
programming is often in the *use* of my application during development. 
Part of my application is written in Python (so I can interface I 
library I can't from Pharo) and part in Pharo.  (*use*, ie:  the 
application is compiled and ready for a *user* and I am the user and 
encounter the bug.


My Python app connects to a server on the net and downloads data and 
inserts it into a PostgreSQL database. It also provides live data to my 
Pharo app via an http interface.


While experimenting with NumPy and running some statistical analysis on 
a GB or two of data. The analysis took 10-12 hours to run. I start it up 
and walk away. I get back to it only to find that at the end of all the 
analysis it exited with a stacktrace. Ugh!  I concatenated a string 
using a ',' instead of a '+'.   Switching between Pharo and Python bit 
me. :)  This was at the very end of all the analysis and the generation 
of a report. The last line of the code had the bug. I lost the 12hours 
of analysis. This bug passed the syntax checker and the Python compiler 
when I imported the module. It wasn't until it was live and running and 
encountered in execution that it was discovered.


In Pharo, the same situation, I fix it in the debugger and my report is 
generated and I continue. All my data is still resident in the image and 
I can explore and continue. In Python (and I presume most any other dead 
language) all is lost and I have to rerun.


Now as I said I am not a professional. Certain processes would have 
helped in this situation, but not necessarily all. And I have limited 
experience with the best other systems or languages have to offer.


But how many programming languages/environments handle that well?

I am still so very tired of every time an application on my computer 
says, "You just updated. Do you want to restart?"


Why do most every single web application outside of the Smalltalk world 
require shutdowns and restarts for bug fixes and upgrades?


Why does NetBeans consume 200mb, take 3-5minutes to startup, and do a 
much, much poorer job with syntax, autocomplete, etc. on a single 500 
line Python file?


I don't think the world out there is anywhere near what Smalltalk has. 
Nor do they have the vision for it. They are happy with files, and 
restarts and all their processes to reduce their pain due to not having 
a live environment.


I am a single guy with a vision, an idea, that I want to implement for 
my business. I have seen nothing that gives me the productivity that 
Smalltalk does. Not Java, Python, Clojure, Scala, Lua, etc.


I have never seen any other language accomplish so much with so few. I 
look at other languages and apps built with them and look at the armies 
they have to do so. Then I look at Seaside, etc. with just a small group 
of guys with an idea of something better.


While I desperately want Squeak/Pharo to be able to interface outside 
systems better. I have seen nothing that is better or comes close. And 
as I said, I have a business requirement to interface a proprietary 
library written in C, which why I am connected with Python (and Windows) 
against my will. So I do understand.


I understand, as does everybody else here, that Pharo/Smalltalk is not 
perfect and has huge areas where we have not done things well or right. 
But I don't think this is one of them. I think this is one where the 
rest of the world is behind us.


Squeak/Pharo/Smalltalk is

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Igor Stasenko]

On 5 May 2011 17:32, Toon Verwaest  wrote:
> On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, Cédrick Béler wrote:
>>
>>> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...
>>
>> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit**
>> of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also
>> test driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and
>> code what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live
>> system, not only a language as somebody said lately).
>>
>> Cédrick
>>
>> [1] see in particular this webcast:
>> http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html
>
> Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see how
> it would work without an image:
>
> I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my
> application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection at
> my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I just let
> the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the executable flag
> and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C.
>
> This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger
> implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't
> work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy
> bastards).
>
>
Yes, but it affects the way how you design your applications and frameworks.
In image-based setup you tend to do things in a way, that things
should be always available
at any moment (wanna create an instance of me? - feel free to do it).

In C and other languages which having compile & run cycle it is
totally different.
Things are available for you not instantly, but only after you restart
everything from scratch,
reinitialize everything and then repeat exactly same steps to meet the
same point as before.
This is often tedious, time consuming and frustrating.

And this difference in approaches leads to fatal flaws in design, like
on Windows OS, which requires you to reboot machine every time you
install new driver(s).

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Igor Stasenko]

On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
> On 5/5/2011 10:32 AM, Toon Verwaest wrote:
>>
>> On 05/05/2011 05:26 PM, Cédrick Béler wrote:

 Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...
>>>
>>> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit**
>>> of Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also
>>> test driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and
>>> code what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live
>>> system, not only a language as somebody said lately).
>>>
>>> Cédrick
>>>
>>> [1] see in particular this webcast:
>>> http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html
>>
>> Seriously ... these points in favor of the image are so m00t. Lets see how
>> it would work without an image:
>>
>> I write a C application which I link to GCC. Now I run GDB on my
>> application, and while running I have the whole GCC compiler collection at
>> my disposal while running. While debugging (at some breakpoint) I just let
>> the GCC library compile some C code for me; I turn on the executable flag
>> and whooptidoo, I have a Smalltalk like debugger for C.
>>
>> This is totally unrelated to having an image; it's just a great debugger
>> implementation. 2 completely different things. No reason why this wouldn't
>> work for C; except for the fact that they didn't do it yet (those lazy
>> bastards).
>
> Disclaimer, I am not a professional programmer and I have not programmed in
> C or any other static compiled language at all. So I may not have any idea
> what I am talking about. :)
>
> What I don't see in your example, but what I experience in my programming is
> often in the *use* of my application during development. Part of my
> application is written in Python (so I can interface I library I can't from
> Pharo) and part in Pharo.  (*use*, ie:  the application is compiled and
> ready for a *user* and I am the user and encounter the bug.
>
> My Python app connects to a server on the net and downloads data and inserts
> it into a PostgreSQL database. It also provides live data to my Pharo app
> via an http interface.
>
> While experimenting with NumPy and running some statistical analysis on a GB
> or two of data. The analysis took 10-12 hours to run. I start it up and walk
> away. I get back to it only to find that at the end of all the analysis it
> exited with a stacktrace. Ugh!  I concatenated a string using a ',' instead
> of a '+'.   Switching between Pharo and Python bit me. :)  This was at the
> very end of all the analysis and the generation of a report. The last line
> of the code had the bug. I lost the 12hours of analysis. This bug passed the
> syntax checker and the Python compiler when I imported the module. It wasn't
> until it was live and running and encountered in execution that it was
> discovered.
>
> In Pharo, the same situation, I fix it in the debugger and my report is
> generated and I continue. All my data is still resident in the image and I
> can explore and continue. In Python (and I presume most any other dead
> language) all is lost and I have to rerun.
>
> Now as I said I am not a professional. Certain processes would have helped
> in this situation, but not necessarily all. And I have limited experience
> with the best other systems or languages have to offer.
>
> But how many programming languages/environments handle that well?
>
> I am still so very tired of every time an application on my computer says,
> "You just updated. Do you want to restart?"
>
> Why do most every single web application outside of the Smalltalk world
> require shutdowns and restarts for bug fixes and upgrades?
>
> Why does NetBeans consume 200mb, take 3-5minutes to startup, and do a much,
> much poorer job with syntax, autocomplete, etc. on a single 500 line Python
> file?
>
> I don't think the world out there is anywhere near what Smalltalk has. Nor
> do they have the vision for it. They are happy with files, and restarts and
> all their processes to reduce their pain due to not having a live
> environment.
>
> I am a single guy with a vision, an idea, that I want to implement for my
> business. I have seen nothing that gives me the productivity that Smalltalk
> does. Not Java, Python, Clojure, Scala, Lua, etc.
>
> I have never seen any other language accomplish so much with so few. I look
> at other languages and apps built with them and look at the armies they have
> to do so. Then I look at Seaside, etc. with just a small group of guys with
> an idea of something better.
>
> While I desperately want Squeak/Pharo to be able to interface outside
> systems better. I have seen nothing that is better or comes close. And as I
> said, I have a business requirement to interface a proprietary library
> written in C, which why I am connected with Python (and Windows) against my
> will. So I do understand.
>
> I understand, as does everybody else here, that Pharo/Smalltalk is not
> perfect and 

Re: [Pharo-project] new Cog VMs uploaded

[Igor Stasenko]

On 5 May 2011 18:24, Eliot Miranda  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Igor Stasenko  wrote:
>>
>> On 4 May 2011 23:39, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
>> > Hi chris
>> >
>> >
>> >> You should be able to extract the code and use it in Pharo/Squeak
>> >> without issue, even if it is GPL.  What you can't do is include it in
>> >> the distribution, since it isn't MIT.  You also shouldn't study the
>> >> code and write your own version of it - I believe that would be a
>> >> derivative work, which would likely make it a GPL derivative.
>> >
>> > so it does not exist and this is better because GPL is viral and we do
>> > not want it.
>> >
>>
>> I finding it really funny that GPL were invented to help open-source
>> to rise and spread,
>> and now its just stands in your way, as any other closed-source
>> proprietary one...
>>
>> >> However, if it was extracted, and you brought it in to do profiling,
>> >> and then removed it afterwards, that shouldn't be an issue at all.
>> >> Just remember to remove it after you no longer need it - that way the
>> >> GPL code won't accidentally creep into the Pharo/Squeak code-base.
>> >>
>> >> Basically, this would be a great example of a project that should be
>> >> an external project and not part of core (or dev).
>> >
>> > the problem is that this kind of philosophy goes against the spirit of
>> > smalltalk
>> > of been able to read and learn the code and modify it.
>>
>>
>> I think that Teleplace has not much choice under which license to
>> release this code,
>> because as long as you using even portion of GPL-ed code, you are
>> forced to use GPL as well.
>
> You have it backwards.  There is *no* GPL code in OpenQwaq.  If there had
> been the whole project would have had to become GPL and Teleplace could not
> have protected itself against others using the code.  By releasing the code
> as GPL Teleplace's investors retain the sole commercial rights to the code.
>  No-one else can use the code without their contributions becoming GPL.
>  Hence no-one wanting to do commercial development using OpenQwaq can do so
> and protect their contributions.  Teleplace's investors, however, /can/
> subsequently sell or exploit commercial rights to the code, which they still
> hold.

Ah, yes.. sorry. i'm not expert in this legal stuff anyways :)
Thanks for explanation.

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

[Chris Muller]

Well, I'm 0-2 so far from the replies understanding the point of my
story..  Oh well.

> The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific
> uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages
> integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package
> there but it wont belongs to there really.

I don't see getting more use out of something than for what it was
originally intended as a "problem".  I was just getting the work done
to quell the complaining for Magma coming from that side..

> This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with
> specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility
> repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their
> install procedures. That would be better.

Sure, that could be an incremental step but I wasn't in a position at
the time to go lobbying to the Pharo group for a new repository; I
just needed to get Magma done for Pharo'ites.

Question:  When is anything in "Treated" ever "consumed"?  If it's not
ever consumed, it's wasting space, so why not delete it?

> Now, lets remember that for Pharo at lease, backwards compatibility is a
> "great to have" feature not a "must have at all means" feature. So if

Actually that describes Squeak's philosophy; they just do it in a
slower, more-incremental nature.

> Other thing, we really don't like changesets or gofer scripts for
> installing anything on Pharo (even if we really like gofer). Why?
> Because they aren't a package management system.

Exactly; philosophical instead of practical..

>The end result could be the same: the packages are installed in the system, 
>that is granted, but
> the capability of Metacello of declaring which other configurations it
> depends on and the one of querying the configuration to see the full
> list of packages to be installed is something that no gofer script,
> installer script or SqueakMap feature can handle right now without
> downloading everything to check.

Not true.  SqueakMap load scripts specify which other prerequisite
configurations are required and merges them, as needed, from SqueakMap
itself.  See Magma or Maui as an example.  Those prerequisite configs
can be browsed before loading, if desired.

I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions:

  - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a
one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the
Pharo gods?

  - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from
external web-sites?

  - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external
graphics, videos, XML or other resources?

  - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an
object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built
using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)?

These questions are much more important to me than "it isn't a package
management system".  If Metacello could do all of these things, I
might be interested..

Regards,
  Chris

[Pharo-project] [update 1.3] #13183

[laurent laffont]

13183
-

Issue #4132:

- LongTest are run by default (so they will be run by Hudson)
- Add a setting in System / Run Long Test to enable / disable them
- Comment

Laurent

Re: [Pharo-project] new Cog VMs uploaded

[Stéphane Ducasse]

this is why you often see dual licensing GPL/buying a license.
So it makes sense. Licences are tools to shape your business model
Now for pharo this is MIT because if you want you can run out with it and 
sell it for a lot of money :)

Stef
> You have it backwards.  There is *no* GPL code in OpenQwaq.  If there had
>> been the whole project would have had to become GPL and Teleplace could not
>> have protected itself against others using the code.  By releasing the code
>> as GPL Teleplace's investors retain the sole commercial rights to the code.
>>  No-one else can use the code without their contributions becoming GPL.
>>  Hence no-one wanting to do commercial development using OpenQwaq can do so
>> and protect their contributions.  Teleplace's investors, however, /can/
>> subsequently sell or exploit commercial rights to the code, which they still
>> hold.
> 
> Ah, yes.. sorry. i'm not expert in this legal stuff anyways :)
> Thanks for explanation.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Stéphane Ducasse]

yes I asked romain to bind the auto complete to enter and we removed it.
Now probably having one setting would be good.

Stef

On May 5, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward.
> 
> We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a 
> reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written 
> on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like 
> this in Glamour:
> 
> ...
>   a tree 
>   display: [ ... ]
> 
> After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the 
> attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced 
> with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want.
> 
> The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and 
> this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is 
> only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no 
> danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text.
> 
> 
> Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has 
> two modes:
> 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and
> 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion 
> item.
> 
> For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is 
> probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are 
> not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict.
> 
> Cheers,
> Doru
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote:
> 
>> That is really great!
>> Many thanks
>> 
>> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko :
>>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
>>> tab all the time
>>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
>>> inserts cr into text.
>>> 
>>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
>>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> 
> "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] [COTDC] 59 - HierarchicalURI

[laurent laffont]

Thanks Cédrick.

May be the right comment is:

See URI

?

Laurent.

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Cédrick Béler  wrote:

> part taken from URI class comment:
>
> "A hierarchical URI is either an absolute URI whose scheme-specific part
> begins with a slash character, or a relative URI, that is, a URI that does
> not specify a scheme. Some examples of hierarchical URIs are:
>
> http://www.pharo-project.org/home
> file:///~/calendar
>
> A hierarchical URI is subject to further parsing according to the syntax
>  [scheme:][//authority][path][?query][#fragment]
> where the characters :, /, ?, and # stand for themselves. The
> scheme-specific part of a hierarchical URI consists of the characters
> between the scheme and fragment parts.
>
> The authority part of a hierarchical URI is, if specified, either
> server-based or registry-based. A server-based authority parses according to
> the  syntax
> [user-info@]host[:port]
> where the characters @ and : stand for themselves. Nearly all URI schemes
> currently in use are server-based. An authority part that does not parse in
> this way is considered to be registry-based.
>
> The path component of a hierarchical URI is itself said to be absolute if
> it begins with a slash character ('/'); otherwise it is relative. The path
> of a hierarchical URI that is either absolute or specifies an authority is
> always absolute."
>
>
> Le 4 mai 2011 à 21:20, laurent laffont a écrit :
>
> Today:  HierarchicalURI
>
>
> Comment Of The Day Contest - One Day One Comment
> Rules:
> #1: Each day a not commented class is elected. Each day the best comment
> will be integrated with name of the author(s).
> #2: If you cannot comment it, deprecate it.
> Results: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest
>
> Laurent
>
>
>

[Pharo-project] [COTDC] 60 - DirectoryURI

[laurent laffont]

 Today:  DirectoryURI


Comment Of The Day Contest - One Day One Comment
Rules:
#1: Each day a not commented class is elected. Each day the best comment
will be integrated with name of the author(s).
#2: If you cannot comment it, deprecate it.
Results: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest

Laurent

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

[Miguel Cobá]

El jue, 05-05-2011 a las 13:02 -0500, Chris Muller escribió:
> Well, I'm 0-2 so far from the replies understanding the point of my
> story..  Oh well.
> 
> > The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific
> > uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages
> > integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package
> > there but it wont belongs to there really.
> 
> I don't see getting more use out of something than for what it was
> originally intended as a "problem".  I was just getting the work done
> to quell the complaining for Magma coming from that side..
> 
> > This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with
> > specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility
> > repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their
> > install procedures. That would be better.
> 
> Sure, that could be an incremental step but I wasn't in a position at
> the time to go lobbying to the Pharo group for a new repository; I
> just needed to get Magma done for Pharo'ites.
> 
> Question:  When is anything in "Treated" ever "consumed"?  If it's not
> ever consumed, it's wasting space, so why not delete it?

For the same reason that the Treated repository from Squeak isn't
deleted, for historical references. That doesn't means that we should
put there what one wants. (well, not that rude, just that as is so easy
to create our own repo, isn't well seen if we put packages in others'
repos)

> 
> > Now, lets remember that for Pharo at lease, backwards compatibility is a
> > "great to have" feature not a "must have at all means" feature. So if
> 
> Actually that describes Squeak's philosophy; they just do it in a
> slower, more-incremental nature.
> 
> > Other thing, we really don't like changesets or gofer scripts for
> > installing anything on Pharo (even if we really like gofer). Why?
> > Because they aren't a package management system.
> 
> Exactly; philosophical instead of practical..

More than philosophical I think. A script can reflect over itself A
metacello configuration class can. Text vs class. Unless you put a
parser to work, that is extra work.

> 
> >The end result could be the same: the packages are installed in the system, 
> >that is granted, but
> > the capability of Metacello of declaring which other configurations it
> > depends on and the one of querying the configuration to see the full
> > list of packages to be installed is something that no gofer script,
> > installer script or SqueakMap feature can handle right now without
> > downloading everything to check.
> 
> Not true.  SqueakMap load scripts specify which other prerequisite
> configurations are required and merges them, as needed, from SqueakMap
> itself.  See Magma or Maui as an example.  Those prerequisite configs
> can be browsed before loading, if desired.

Yes, I saw the scripts for Magma and I see check for specific classes to
test if they exist in the image (if they are installed):

[Smalltalk at: #MagmaTestCase] ifFalse: [ "install other mcz" ]

> 
> I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions:
> 
>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a
> one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the
> Pharo gods?

The same tha squeak for changes that aren't accepted/belongs to/are too
specific to an application. You include them as an *mypackage extension
in some package of yours and then when the mcz is installed, the
extension is installed too. That is just monticello as always.


> 
>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from
> external web-sites?

Using doIts if necessary. Or specifying some other repo to fetch mcz
things from. A metacello configuration can have any nnumber of origin
repositories to fetch mcz from and then install them in the image. For
resources like images and so, the doIts can have HTTPClient to download
and serialize to the image as needed. Smalltalk at the point of your
fingers.

> 
>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external
> graphics, videos, XML or other resources?

Idem.

> 
>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an
> object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built
> using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)?

Don't understand the example
But for loading external data that is in a suitable form to load you can
use a postLoad doit to open (or download the data) and then bring it
into the image, creating objects on the fly. You can load binary data if
you want (SIXX, whatever) or text data (XML,JSON,etc) at the end is
smalltalk in a doIt doing the work.

> 
> These questions are much more important to me than "it isn't a package
> management system".  If Metacello could do all of these things, I
> might be interested..

I think it does those things, maybe a second look at the existings
configurations can clear a lot of doubts.

I have a d

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

[Stéphane Ducasse]

>> The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific
>> uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages
>> integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package
>> there but it wont belongs to there really.
> 
> I don't see getting more use out of something than for what it was
> originally intended as a "problem".  I was just getting the work done
> to quell the complaining for Magma coming from that side..

but why don't you have a pharo package in the magma repo?

> 
>> This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with
>> specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility
>> repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their
>> install procedures. That would be better.
> 
> Sure, that could be an incremental step but I wasn't in a position at
> the time to go lobbying to the Pharo group for a new repository; I
> just needed to get Magma done for Pharo'ites.
> 
> Question:  When is anything in "Treated" ever "consumed"?  If it's not
> ever consumed, it's wasting space, so why not delete it?

This is traceability and merge purpose. 
But I would not publish package to treated inbox if I would be you because
we can remove everything one day
You do not put your wallet in your trashcan don't you?

> I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions:
> 
>  - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a
> one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the
> Pharo gods?

- virgin sacrified on altar is the first step. 
- second step is to have one package name magma-pharo containing the 
extensions/changes
How grease does it?
how any monticello does it with any others?
Moose Core is extended sometimes by 5 other packages and this is 
working perfectly (except for state)

>  - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from
> external web-sites?

initialize methods?

>  - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external
> graphics, videos, XML or other resources?

initialize methods?

>  - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an
> object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built
> using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)?

initialize methods?

> These questions are much more important to me than "it isn't a package
> management system".  If Metacello could do all of these things, I
> might be interested..

did you read the postLoadAction?

Chris. Metacello scripts are object specs and to me this is just great because 
they are objects
and with objects we can do a lot. Checking, transforming.. So of course 
hacking a little script is fast and 
Metacello requires some care but I can tell you that for us this is **hyper** 
important (and not just 
as some person may think because we like complex stuff - because this is plain 
wrong)
because Metacello are first class ***objects*** scripts. Now you can not look 
at it too. I wrote with dale 
35 pages documentation and I should do another pass.
I think that what Dale is doing is **EXTREMELY** important to manage the 
complexity.

When we did 3.9 and used MC for the first time we were really aware that 
packages wihtout a package management system could kill the system (which 
version of x is working with k kind of nightmare) and 
metacello answer that question and support different development process.

Stef

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Toon Verwaest]

Yes, but it affects the way how you design your applications and frameworks.
In image-based setup you tend to do things in a way, that things
should be always available
at any moment (wanna create an instance of me? - feel free to do it).

In C and other languages which having compile&  run cycle it is
totally different.
Things are available for you not instantly, but only after you restart
everything from scratch,
reinitialize everything and then repeat exactly same steps to meet the
same point as before.
This is often tedious, time consuming and frustrating.

And this difference in approaches leads to fatal flaws in design, like
on Windows OS, which requires you to reboot machine every time you
install new driver(s)
Ok, I do agree on that. It's probably not an intrinsic flaw of the 
system, it just makes you think differently. However, suppose that C 
would have a REPL which gives you an inspector... then you'd already be 
more inclined to build systems like Smalltalk has. I don't say Smalltalk 
and its philosophy isn't great, I'm just saying that the image isn't a 
requirement. I'm sure that if someone would build a more flexible 
version of C that people would get used to it and want nothing else... 
even expect it.


But whatever :)

[Pharo-project] Preferred way of removing slice from Inbox

[laurent laffont]

Hi,

Once a SLICE is integrated in PharoCore, how do you remove it from
PharoInbox ?

Laurent

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

[Chris Muller]

>> I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions:
>>
>>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a
>> one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the
>> Pharo gods?
>
> The same tha squeak for changes that aren't accepted/belongs to/are too
> specific to an application. You include them as an *mypackage extension
> in some package of yours and then when the mcz is installed, the
> extension is installed too. That is just monticello as always.

I'm talking about an override not an extension.

>>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from
>> external web-sites?
>
> Using doIts if necessary.

Right, dropping down into straight load-script and doing it.  Got it!  :)

>>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external
>> graphics, videos, XML or other resources?
>
> Idem.

Often specific _versions_ of resources go with each specific version
of an application.  Now I am maintaining those separately, in separate
places using separate tools.

I want something to expand the metaphor of an object being
"encapsulated behavior + state" into my deployment system, so it will
be "encapsulated behaviors + resources".  Thankfully, even Pharo 1.3
still supports .SAR files, but no nice GUI to load them, just the
file-manager.  :(

>>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an
>> object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built
>> using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)?
>
> Don't understand the example

A better example.  What if I just want something that strips my image
down of lots of code and objects, without leaving any new code loaded?

It's a rhetorical question, I already know the answer:  Create a
Metacello config to host only a load-script (doIt).  But I wonder
whether said doIt would be able to "unload itself" when it was done?
Probably could.

> I think it does those things, maybe a second look at the existings
> configurations can clear a lot of doubts.

The picture seems to be, as long as my app is all just "clean-loading
MC packages", then I can use Metacello within its normal bounds. (OR,
I could just use the standard "lighter-weight" SCM tools; Monticello +
MonticelloConfigurations + Gofer).

However, if an application requires anything additional:  overrides,
resources or special-configurations, then I drop down to the "ultimate
flexbility" afforded by doIt's - which is just load-scripting.  Even
then, the resources are not encapsulated as I already said.

SqueakMap is a repository that hosts load-scripts encasulated with or
without resources.  It's perfectly complimentary to all of the other
tools.

I'm exhausted of talking about this..

Regards,
  Chris

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Casimiro de Almeida Barreto]

Good evening Roy.

One thing that always amazes me a lot is that so many experienced
solution providers (ie. people who develop solutions either to be sold
as OTSCS or embedded as a more or less autonomous part of a bigger
system) mind about if something is "mainstream" or something else.

For several reasons extensively discussed in this forum, smalltalk
didn't "hit the market" like java did. It has nothing to do regarding to
smalltalk qualities or lack of them. It has to do with good marketing
vs. bad marketing, shorter learning curve for things like java and the
fact that java was more apt to be used in personal computers of the
1990ies. Besides that, large part of smalltalk community at that time
had the "king inside their bellies" and that just made the technology
less attractive to outsiders (look: 1990ies language wars).

Smalltalk is a really nice technology supporting fast development of
complex (and performative) solutions and demanding much smaller teams to
do so. It has evident advantages in the fields of code testing,
profiling, maintenance and reuse. Most common families of smalltalk like
pharo/squeak/Cincom VW/  are cross platform (Windows, Linux, OS X, iOS).
Important families of smalltalk are open source (pharo, squeak, gnu
smalltalk and dedicated derivatives like OpenCobalt).

Smalltak is far from dead. If you investigate you'll see that pharo (for
instance) is supported by important universities (listed among 100 best
universities in world). In recent years we have witnessed amazing things
in smalltalk world. For reasons that can be summarized as immature
product adoption in the 1990ies and ugly commercial practices by
suppliers, smalltalk is not as popular as java or python. IMHO time will
correct this situation.

Now, if you want to deploy solutions you have no reason to fear
smalltalk except by the fact that it's highly addictive: you start
producing and do it fast and clean and just don't want to stop... but,
like any d-dealer would say: "don't trust me, you just have to try it...
just once... and look: first time is for free !!!" Ok, enough kidding:
if you want to deploy solutions you'll see that for the same investment
(time & material resources) you do more with smalltalk. You'll loose
much less time debugging things, documenting things, figuring out what
other people did before... you'll spend much less money in debuggers,
profilers, testers, etc... You'll see that reusing and integrating
things is just pleasant. And you'll be amazed by performance.

That are my 2¢

CdAB

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Jimmie Houchin]

On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:

[Big Snip]

Well said.
Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with
foreign libraries.
Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you
need to have knowledge
in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you
take any other pair of languages and try to
connect them.


Thanks,

I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved 
in using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of 
FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers.


However, this is my experience in Python.

Navigate to the directory containing the script makepy.py or if it is a 
part of your Python's sys.path, execute the script. It generates a 
Python module which is on


It pops up a dialogue which prompts you to select the library you wish 
to interface.


Then to use in a script simply
import Dispatch
self.mylib = Dispatch("MyLibrary")

This will expose all the functionality of the library.

All provided by the python win32 extensions. It was very successful for 
my needs. I do not know what limitations it may or may not have.


Very easy for non-expert programmers. I would love this level of ability 
to interface outside libraries in Squeak. But I have no idea the effort 
required to automate the generation of a class or classes which 
interface the external library.


In my particular instance this is obviously for a Windows library. I 
don't know if Python has anything comparable for Linux or OSX.


In this particular instance, Python was enabling for me, for which I am 
grateful. Otherwise I might be stuck writing my app in VisualBasic. But 
despite my gratefulness, I spend as little time in Python as possible. 
Despite Python not requiring a compiler, I really hate going to an 
editor and writing code. Then to an interpreter to run code. Hit my 
stacktrace. Go back to the editor. Reload the module in the interpreter 
and run again, and if that doesn't succeed due to the reload not really 
reloading the new code, open in a new interpreter. Ugh!!!  Where's my 
Smalltalk. Give my live object system. :)


Jimmie

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Stéphane Ducasse]

Thanks Jimmie
Thanks to kick our asses like that!
I would love to have that too in Pharo.

Stef

> Thanks,
> 
> I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in 
> using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of FFI/Alien 
> or using C/C++/C# or compilers.
> 
> However, this is my experience in Python.
> 
> Navigate to the directory containing the script makepy.py or if it is a part 
> of your Python's sys.path, execute the script. It generates a Python module 
> which is on
> 
> It pops up a dialogue which prompts you to select the library you wish to 
> interface.
> 
> Then to use in a script simply
> import Dispatch
> self.mylib = Dispatch("MyLibrary")
> 
> This will expose all the functionality of the library.
> 
> All provided by the python win32 extensions. It was very successful for my 
> needs. I do not know what limitations it may or may not have.
> 
> Very easy for non-expert programmers. I would love this level of ability to 
> interface outside libraries in Squeak. But I have no idea the effort required 
> to automate the generation of a class or classes which interface the external 
> library.
> 
> In my particular instance this is obviously for a Windows library. I don't 
> know if Python has anything comparable for Linux or OSX.
> 
> In this particular instance, Python was enabling for me, for which I am 
> grateful. Otherwise I might be stuck writing my app in VisualBasic. But 
> despite my gratefulness, I spend as little time in Python as possible. 
> Despite Python not requiring a compiler, I really hate going to an editor and 
> writing code. Then to an interpreter to run code. Hit my stacktrace. Go back 
> to the editor. Reload the module in the interpreter and run again, and if 
> that doesn't succeed due to the reload not really reloading the new code, 
> open in a new interpreter. Ugh!!!  Where's my Smalltalk. Give my live object 
> system. :)
> 
> Jimmie
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-project] Preferred way of removing slice from Inbox

[Stéphane Ducasse]

On May 5, 2011, at 9:00 PM, laurent laffont wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Once a SLICE is integrated in PharoCore, how do you remove it from PharoInbox 
> ?

via boring click click click squeaksource interface

:(
> 
> Laurent

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

[Miguel Cobá]

El jue, 05-05-2011 a las 14:17 -0500, Chris Muller escribió:
> >> I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions:
> >>
> >>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a
> >> one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the
> >> Pharo gods?
> >
> > The same tha squeak for changes that aren't accepted/belongs to/are too
> > specific to an application. You include them as an *mypackage extension
> > in some package of yours and then when the mcz is installed, the
> > extension is installed too. That is just monticello as always.
> 
> I'm talking about an override not an extension.

Can't see the difference. Your package just have a method that overrides
one method in a core system class. Or am I missing something?

> 
> >>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from
> >> external web-sites?
> >
> > Using doIts if necessary.
> 
> Right, dropping down into straight load-script and doing it.  Got it!  :)

Yes, because is the last resort. But most scripts are just pulling
dependencies, not resources so if you advocate the scripts just for the
fraction of special uses instead of a reified tool, that is a personal
decision not really an argument.

> 
> >>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external
> >> graphics, videos, XML or other resources?
> >
> > Idem.
> 
> Often specific _versions_ of resources go with each specific version
> of an application.  Now I am maintaining those separately, in separate
> places using separate tools.

You can have as many doits as you want (they are methods) and each
version loaded by the configuration can invoke a given doit to load
specific version of your resources.

> 
> I want something to expand the metaphor of an object being
> "encapsulated behavior + state" into my deployment system, so it will
> be "encapsulated behaviors + resources".  Thankfully, even Pharo 1.3
> still supports .SAR files, but no nice GUI to load them, just the
> file-manager.  :(
> 
> >>   - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an
> >> object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built
> >> using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)?
> >
> > Don't understand the example
> 
> A better example.  What if I just want something that strips my image
> down of lots of code and objects, without leaving any new code loaded?
> 
> It's a rhetorical question, I already know the answer:  Create a
> Metacello config to host only a load-script (doIt).  But I wonder
> whether said doIt would be able to "unload itself" when it was done?
> Probably could.

This is a very specific scenario that most surely is not needed by the
90% of users that metacello is aiming to be useful to. The 10% that need
some very restricted loading scenario can have a script that does
everything that need.

> 
> > I think it does those things, maybe a second look at the existings
> > configurations can clear a lot of doubts.
> 
> The picture seems to be, as long as my app is all just "clean-loading
> MC packages", then I can use Metacello within its normal bounds. (OR,
> I could just use the standard "lighter-weight" SCM tools; Monticello +
> MonticelloConfigurations + Gofer).

Yes, but for most maintainers that "clean-loading MC packages" is what
we need. For example magma. Is a complex project and even so it doesn't
use any of the  spoken features so metacello is good enought to load it
in Pharo.

This argument about scripts vs metacello is like saying that just
because you can do the same with assembler when iterating over a list of
string you don't need a OrderedCollection. yes you can do the same, but
the advantages are greater when working with full objects that with
plain text.

> 
> However, if an application requires anything additional:  overrides,
> resources or special-configurations, then I drop down to the "ultimate
> flexbility" afforded by doIt's - which is just load-scripting.  Even
> then, the resources are not encapsulated as I already said.
> 
> SqueakMap is a repository that hosts load-scripts encasulated with or
> without resources.  It's perfectly complimentary to all of the other
> tools.
> 
> I'm exhausted of talking about this..

Ok, then lets rest it now.

Regards
-- 
Miguel Cobá
http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz
http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

Re: [Pharo-project] [update 1.3] #13183

[Stéphane Ducasse]

thanks laurent!

Stef

On May 5, 2011, at 8:13 PM, laurent laffont wrote:

> 13183
> -
> 
> Issue #4132:
> 
> - LongTest are run by default (so they will be run by Hudson)
> - Add a setting in System / Run Long Test to enable / disable them
> - Comment 
> 
> Laurent 

Re: [Pharo-project] [update 1.3] #13183

[laurent laffont]

héhé, now DecompilerTests are run and some fail
https://pharo-ic.lille.inria.fr/hudson/view/Pharo/job/Pharo%20Core%201.3/lastCompletedBuild/testReport/

Laurnt


On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:

> thanks laurent!
>
> Stef
>
> On May 5, 2011, at 8:13 PM, laurent laffont wrote:
>
> > 13183
> > -
> >
> > Issue #4132:
> >
> > - LongTest are run by default (so they will be run by Hudson)
> > - Add a setting in System / Run Long Test to enable / disable them
> > - Comment
> >
> > Laurent
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Thierry Lebourque]

In my opinion, completion should not select anything when activated
automatically, it is only suggestion. It is the user who choose to use
it or not, by using tab or arrow, for example. If the completion is
requested intentionally it should behave as described by Doru.

I have used quite a lot of different IDE, and sometimes I find the
Pharo completion quite disturbing.

But as Stéphane said, it could maybe become a setting.

2011/5/5 Stéphane Ducasse :
> yes I asked romain to bind the auto complete to enter and we removed it.
> Now probably having one setting would be good.
>
> Stef
>
> On May 5, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward.
>>
>> We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for 
>> a reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when 
>> written on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type 
>> something like this in Glamour:
>>
>> ...
>>       a tree
>>               display: [ ... ]
>>
>> After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the 
>> attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is 
>> replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want.
>>
>> The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and 
>> this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is 
>> only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no 
>> danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text.
>>
>>
>> Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has 
>> two modes:
>> 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and
>> 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion 
>> item.
>>
>> For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is 
>> probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you 
>> are not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Doru
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote:
>>
>>> That is really great!
>>> Many thanks
>>>
>>> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko :
 Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
 tab all the time
 while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
 inserts cr into text.

 So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
 suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr

 --
 Best regards,
 Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

>>>
>>
>> --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>
>> "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
>>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Igor Stasenko]

On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
> On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>> On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
>
> [Big Snip]
>>
>> Well said.
>> Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with
>> foreign libraries.
>> Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you
>> need to have knowledge
>> in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you
>> take any other pair of languages and try to
>> connect them.
>
> Thanks,
>
> I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in
> using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of
> FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers.
>
> However, this is my experience in Python.
>
> Navigate to the directory containing the script makepy.py or if it is a part
> of your Python's sys.path, execute the script. It generates a Python module
> which is on
>
> It pops up a dialogue which prompts you to select the library you wish to
> interface.
>
> Then to use in a script simply
> import Dispatch
> self.mylib = Dispatch("MyLibrary")
>
> This will expose all the functionality of the library.
>
> All provided by the python win32 extensions. It was very successful for my
> needs. I do not know what limitations it may or may not have.
>
> Very easy for non-expert programmers. I would love this level of ability to
> interface outside libraries in Squeak. But I have no idea the effort
> required to automate the generation of a class or classes which interface
> the external library.
>
> In my particular instance this is obviously for a Windows library. I don't
> know if Python has anything comparable for Linux or OSX.
>
> In this particular instance, Python was enabling for me, for which I am
> grateful. Otherwise I might be stuck writing my app in VisualBasic. But
> despite my gratefulness, I spend as little time in Python as possible.
> Despite Python not requiring a compiler, I really hate going to an editor
> and writing code. Then to an interpreter to run code. Hit my stacktrace. Go
> back to the editor. Reload the module in the interpreter and run again, and
> if that doesn't succeed due to the reload not really reloading the new code,
> open in a new interpreter. Ugh!!!  Where's my Smalltalk. Give my live object
> system. :)
>

Haha.. i have strong suspicion that here you are talking about quite
specific set of libraries,
which using OLE/COM interfaces. Indeed, one could implement an
automatic "import/connect" tool
for it, because a library itself contain enough information reflecting
it interface(s).
You can check Dolphin smalltalk which works only on windows and has
integrated solution for that for years:
In same way like you described, you just pick the library, click "ok"
and its done & ready for use.

But that would be too easy if you could do same with any other library
in your system.
So, if you feel adventurous, try to check what Python can do with
libraries like Kernel32.dll
or User32.dll. I am sure it can do as little as Smalltalk in this
regard, but you are free to check it yourself :)


> Jimmie
>

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Igor Stasenko]

On 5 May 2011 22:46, Thierry Lebourque  wrote:
> In my opinion, completion should not select anything when activated
> automatically, it is only suggestion. It is the user who choose to use
> it or not, by using tab or arrow, for example. If the completion is
> requested intentionally it should behave as described by Doru.
>
Yes, it should not select anything (even if there's only choice),
and only if user pressing keys to select an item from drop-down list
(like up/down/tab),
then selection should be enabled.
Otherwise autocompletion should just hang around and not interfere
with user's input until he typed mentioned keys,
which effectively changes input focus to a menu instead of text editor.

> I have used quite a lot of different IDE, and sometimes I find the
> Pharo completion quite disturbing.
>
> But as Stéphane said, it could maybe become a setting.
>
> 2011/5/5 Stéphane Ducasse :
>> yes I asked romain to bind the auto complete to enter and we removed it.
>> Now probably having one setting would be good.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On May 5, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward.
>>>
>>> We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for 
>>> a reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when 
>>> written on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type 
>>> something like this in Glamour:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>       a tree
>>>               display: [ ... ]
>>>
>>> After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the 
>>> attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is 
>>> replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want.
>>>
>>> The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and 
>>> this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is 
>>> only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no 
>>> danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has 
>>> two modes:
>>> 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and
>>> 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion 
>>> item.
>>>
>>> For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is 
>>> probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you 
>>> are not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Doru
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote:
>>>
 That is really great!
 Many thanks

 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko :
> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press
> tab all the time
> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion,
> inserts cr into text.
>
> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert
> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>

>>>
>>> --
>>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>>
>>> "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Re: [Pharo-project] Preferred way of removing slice from Inbox

[Mariano Martinez Peck]

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:

>
> On May 5, 2011, at 9:00 PM, laurent laffont wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Once a SLICE is integrated in PharoCore, how do you remove it from
> PharoInbox ?
>
> via boring click click click squeaksource interface
>
>
mm shouldn't we be able to create a simple Gofer script that do that?

lukas?


-- 
Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Re: [Pharo-project] Nile tests red - Pharo 1.3

[Alain rastoul]

Nice vision. I want it now  :)
I think smalltalk is the best choice for that - you know better than 
me of course
However to make a living with it, it has to interface with other IT 
systems and standards, so that developers can make an sell a part of 
the system.
Pharo has seaside-web on one end but may be  something is missing 
with relational databases. They are today the heart of business 
information systems (I have to try dbx and glorp , odbc is not usable 
because of locks)
Side note, I often wondered myself why object databases didn't catch? 
Technical issues? Marketing?


Btw, pharo has taken a good direction. Nice work. I'll try and see if 
I can help in this field (databases) which is one of my skill


Cheers
Alain

--
Alain_rastoul

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Steve Taylor]

On 05/05/11 22:11, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:


http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html


And of those many good books I'd put in a particular word for "Smalltalk 
By Example" by Alex Sharp. I found it particularly straightforward and 
helpful when I was starting out.


http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/ByExample/





  Steve

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Germán Arduino]

2011/5/5 Toon Verwaest :
>
>
> For me, Java and .NET have never really been worth knowing.
>
+1

I can't really imagine anything worse than the artifacts of .net "technology".

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Jimmie Houchin]

On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:

On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchinwrote:

[Big Snip]

Well said.
Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with
foreign libraries.
Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you
need to have knowledge
in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you
take any other pair of languages and try to
connect them.

Thanks,

I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in
using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of
FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers.

However, this is my experience in Python.

Navigate to the directory containing the script makepy.py or if it is a part
of your Python's sys.path, execute the script. It generates a Python module
which is on

It pops up a dialogue which prompts you to select the library you wish to
interface.

Then to use in a script simply
import Dispatch
self.mylib = Dispatch("MyLibrary")

This will expose all the functionality of the library.

All provided by the python win32 extensions. It was very successful for my
needs. I do not know what limitations it may or may not have.

Very easy for non-expert programmers. I would love this level of ability to
interface outside libraries in Squeak. But I have no idea the effort
required to automate the generation of a class or classes which interface
the external library.

In my particular instance this is obviously for a Windows library. I don't
know if Python has anything comparable for Linux or OSX.

In this particular instance, Python was enabling for me, for which I am
grateful. Otherwise I might be stuck writing my app in VisualBasic. But
despite my gratefulness, I spend as little time in Python as possible.
Despite Python not requiring a compiler, I really hate going to an editor
and writing code. Then to an interpreter to run code. Hit my stacktrace. Go
back to the editor. Reload the module in the interpreter and run again, and
if that doesn't succeed due to the reload not really reloading the new code,
open in a new interpreter. Ugh!!!  Where's my Smalltalk. Give my live object
system. :)

Haha.. i have strong suspicion that here you are talking about quite
specific set of libraries,
which using OLE/COM interfaces. Indeed, one could implement an
automatic "import/connect" tool
for it, because a library itself contain enough information reflecting
it interface(s).
You can check Dolphin smalltalk which works only on windows and has
integrated solution for that for years:
In same way like you described, you just pick the library, click "ok"
and its done&  ready for use.

But that would be too easy if you could do same with any other library
in your system.
So, if you feel adventurous, try to check what Python can do with
libraries like Kernel32.dll
or User32.dll. I am sure it can do as little as Smalltalk in this
regard, but you are free to check it yourself :)


As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but 
that it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from 
Pharo/Squeak. I know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't 
prefer to use non-open source software if at all possible for 
development. I also am very preferential towards cross-platform 
software. Dolphin fails on all accounts. I would choose my Python/Pharo 
blend over Dolphin any day. I know it introduces some pain, but I am 
willing to accept the pain. I like tools that allow me to use them where 
ever I am and whatever I am doing.


However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such 
capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive.


http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html

"""
ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C 
compatible data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared 
libraries. It can be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python.



 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries

ctypes exports the /cdll/, and on Windows /windll/ and /oledll/ objects, 
for loading dynamic link libraries.


You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. 
/cdll/ loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl 
calling convention, while /windll/ libraries call functions using the 
stdcall calling convention. /oledll/ also uses the stdcall calling 
convention, and assumes the functions return a Windows HRESULT error 
code. The error code is used to automatically raise a WindowsError 
exception when the function call fails.


Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard 
C library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl 
calling convention:



 from  ctypes  import  *
 print  windll.kernel32  # doctest: +WINDOWS



 print  cdll.msvcrt  # doctest: +WINDOWS



 libc  =  cdll.msvcrt  # doctest: +WINDOWS




"""

It has examples for windows and

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Germán Arduino]

2011/5/5 Cédrick Béler :
>
> Lastly, most Smalltalk systems are image based...
>
> ...which makes you feel the system is "alive", hence one **huge benefit** of
> Smalltalk: its debugger which enables on the fly debbuging... and also test
> driven development (real one [1]) where you can run incomplete code and code
> what's missing iteratively when you need it (Smalltalk is a live system, not
> only a language as somebody said lately).

Super Full Agree!

> Cédrick
> [1] see in particular this
> webcast: http://www.pharocasts.com/2010/01/starting-with-sunit-and-debugger.html



--

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Germán Arduino]

>
> Haha.. i have strong suspicion that here you are talking about quite
> specific set of libraries,
> which using OLE/COM interfaces. Indeed, one could implement an
> automatic "import/connect" tool
> for it, because a library itself contain enough information reflecting
> it interface(s).
> You can check Dolphin smalltalk which works only on windows and has
> integrated solution for that for years:
> In same way like you described, you just pick the library, click "ok"
> and its done & ready for use.
>


True, I was just ready to write the same thing about Dolphin and works
very well, transforming
OLE objects in Smalltalk objects with their respective methods. But
allways you need to know
what to do with such objects and methods.

And is very dependent of the operating system and the underlying technology.

I think that the cooperation with the outside world is needed, but I
will not miss the advantages of
work in Smalltalk, lot of times is more cheap to develop the needed
stuff in Smalltalk than a
complex artifact to interact with another technology.

Cheers.
Germán.

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Igor Stasenko]

On 6 May 2011 01:03, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
> On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
> On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
>
> On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
> On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
>
> [Big Snip]
>
> Well said.
> Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with
> foreign libraries.
> Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you
> need to have knowledge
> in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you
> take any other pair of languages and try to
> connect them.
>
> Thanks,
>
> I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in
> using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of
> FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers.
>

So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :)

> As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but that
> it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I
> know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use
> non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am very
> preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all accounts.
> I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it
> introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools that
> allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing.
>
> However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such
> capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive.
>
> http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html
>
> """
> ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C compatible
> data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It can
> be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python.
>
> 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries
>
> ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for
> loading dynamic link libraries.
>
> You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. cdll
> loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling
> convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall calling
> convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes the
> functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to
> automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call fails.
>
> Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard C
> library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling
> convention:
>
 from ctypes import *
 print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS
> 
 print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
> 
 libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
>>>
>

So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo?
Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python?


> """
>
> It has examples for windows and linux.
>

I feel that you are seriously under-informed.
Just try googling for:

Squeak + FFI
Alien

NativeBoost

and just check what you can do using it:

http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/

also check mail archives.

Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look
for what you need by yourself?
Are google.com banned by your ISP?

For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information
(while being available openly) didn't catch your
attention , so you using python instead.
(Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to
automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces).
But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions
on mailing list, you will probably discover that
there is already work being done in that direction.
And at last, if you feel that there is missing some key functionality
which you want, and you expect that it is also
could be useful to community, you can always implement it and share
with people (instead of using Python ;).
So, next who will come after you won't find himself in a desert with
couple of oasises few hundred miles away.

> I didn't read it all as I am unqualified to assess its capabilities or
> limitations, nor do I presently need it as the win32 extensions do easily
> and well what I presently need to do.
>
> Hopefully it can inform us as to what is expected and doable in alternative
> languages which are dynamic like Smalltalk.
>
> Jimmie
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

[Jimmie Houchin]

On 5/5/2011 11:00 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:

Hi,

This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward.

We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a 
reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written 
on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like this 
in Glamour:

...
a tree
display: [ ... ]

After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the attached picture). If I 
press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the 
behavior I want.

The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and 
this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is 
only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no danger 
of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text.


Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has two 
modes:
1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and
2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion 
item.

For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is 
probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are 
not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict.

Cheers,
Doru


Hello,

As I stated in my reply I like the idea of using CR. But you do raise a 
valid point and demonstrate a valid situation.


My question is...
Why isn't OCompletion offering the shortest options first?
If it did so, then your situation wouldn't occur.
tree would be selected before treeLayout.

Is it reasonable to have OCompletion sort the list which is being 
presented alphabetically or alphabetically within the whatever the 
preferred priority is?

ie: alphabetically within a list of the most recently selected items.

It would offer the shortest items first and complete to their end if 
unique, and when you want more you provide more characters or navigate 
to the desired item. Always completing to the first alphabetical unique 
qualified item.


Just a few thoughts that if reasonable and doable could make everybody 
happy.


Thanks.

Jimmie

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[laurent laffont]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Igor Stasenko  wrote:

> On 6 May 2011 01:03, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
> > On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> >
> > On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
> >
> > On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> >
> > On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:
> >
> > [Big Snip]
> >
> > Well said.
> > Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with
> > foreign libraries.
> > Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you
> > need to have knowledge
> > in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you
> > take any other pair of languages and try to
> > connect them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in
> > using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of
> > FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers.
> >
>
> So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :)
>
> > As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but
> that
> > it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I
> > know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use
> > non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am
> very
> > preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all
> accounts.
> > I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it
> > introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools
> that
> > allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing.
> >
> > However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such
> > capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive.
> >
> > http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html
> >
> > """
> > ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C compatible
> > data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It
> can
> > be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python.
> >
> > 15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries
> >
> > ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for
> > loading dynamic link libraries.
> >
> > You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. cdll
> > loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling
> > convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall
> calling
> > convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes
> the
> > functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to
> > automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call
> fails.
> >
> > Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard C
> > library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling
> > convention:
> >
>  from ctypes import *
>  print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS
> > 
>  print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
> > 
>  libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS
> >>>
> >
>
> So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo?
> Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python?
>
>
> > """
> >
> > It has examples for windows and linux.
> >
>
> I feel that you are seriously under-informed.
> Just try googling for:
>
> Squeak + FFI
> Alien
>
> NativeBoost
>
> and just check what you can do using it:
>
> http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/
>
> also check mail archives.
>
> Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look
> for what you need by yourself?
> Are google.com banned by your ISP?
>
> For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information
> (while being available openly) didn't catch your
> attention , so you using python instead.
> (Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to
> automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces).
> But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions
> on mailing list, you will probably discover that
> there is already work being done in that direction.
>


Indeed, one thing FFI / Alien / NB don't have is a documentation as nice as
http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html  in
http://book.pharo-project.org/

FFI / Alien / NB may be powerful, it seems I've never managed to do what I
want, even with all mailing lists support (search mails on yaz / z3950 or
id3taglib). In Python it works on OSX out of the box (I've just tried :)


But when I was working with Python and Ruby several years ago things was
easy (for my needs), I think because of documentation.

Laurent


And at last, if you feel that there is missing some key functionality
> which you want, and you expect that it is also
> could be useful to community, you can always implement it and share
> with people (instead of using Python ;).
> So, next who will come after you won't find himself in a desert with
> couple of oasises few hundred miles away.
>
> > I didn't read it all as I am unqualified to assess its capabilities or
> > limitations, nor do I presently need it a

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

[Jimmie Houchin]

On 5/5/2011 8:19 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

On 6 May 2011 01:03, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:

On 5/5/2011 4:25 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

On 5 May 2011 21:39, Jimmie Houchin  wrote:

On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchinwrote:

[Big Snip]

Well said.
Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with
foreign libraries.
Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you
need to have knowledge
in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you
take any other pair of languages and try to
connect them.

Thanks,

I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in
using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of
FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers.

So, read about it. It doesn't bites. :)
Yes, I know. But like many, my time is limited. I program my app in my 
spare time. I have a full-time+ job and a very large family who want 
some of my time.



As I said, I am totally unaware of the limitations of the system, but that
it did what I need, and would have liked to do that from Pharo/Squeak. I
know Dolphin has/had certain capabilities. But I don't prefer to use
non-open source software if at all possible for development. I also am very
preferential towards cross-platform software. Dolphin fails on all accounts.
I would choose my Python/Pharo blend over Dolphin any day. I know it
introduces some pain, but I am willing to accept the pain. I like tools that
allow me to use them where ever I am and whatever I am doing.

However, that said, when I look at the facilities Python offers for such
capabilities it on appearances looks quite impressive.

http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html

"""
ctypes is a foreign function library for Python. It provides C compatible
data types, and allows calling functions in DLLs or shared libraries. It can
be used to wrap these libraries in pure Python.

15.18.1.1. Loading dynamic link libraries

ctypes exports the cdll, and on Windows windll and oledll objects, for
loading dynamic link libraries.

You load libraries by accessing them as attributes of these objects. cdll
loads libraries which export functions using the standard cdecl calling
convention, while windll libraries call functions using the stdcall calling
convention. oledll also uses the stdcall calling convention, and assumes the
functions return a Windows HRESULT error code. The error code is used to
automatically raise a WindowsError exception when the function call fails.

Here are some examples for Windows. Note that msvcrt is the MS standard C
library containing most standard C functions, and uses the cdecl calling
convention:

from ctypes import *
print windll.kernel32 # doctest: +WINDOWS



print cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS



libc = cdll.msvcrt # doctest: +WINDOWS

So? Why do you think that you cannot do the same in Pharo?
Have you digested what is available before doing it in Python?


I never said it couldn't be done in Pharo or Squeak. What I said is that 
I lack the skills to do so in Pharo.


It isn't a two lines of code an your off and running. Which is what 
Python provided me. Ok, in total, my Python code is more like 500 lines. 
It interfaces the COM DLL and serves the data to my Pharo app which 
provides all of my business logic. The Python app is simply an interface 
and gateway. No business logic.



"""
It has examples for windows and linux.

I feel that you are seriously under-informed.
Just try googling for:

Squeak + FFI
Alien

NativeBoost

and just check what you can do using it:

http://www.squeaksource.com/NBOpenGL/

also check mail archives.

Forgive me, but i really can't understand , why you can't just look
for what you need by yourself?
Are google.com banned by your ISP?

For me this subject is interested in aspect, why this information
(while being available openly) didn't catch your
attention , so you using python instead.
(Okay, you might miss some functionality like being able to
automatically generate bindings to COM interfaces).
But again, i am sure that if you surf the net or ask right questions
on mailing list, you will probably discover that
there is already work being done in that direction.
And at last, if you feel that there is missing some key functionality
which you want, and you expect that it is also
could be useful to community, you can always implement it and share
with people (instead of using Python ;).
So, next who will come after you won't find himself in a desert with
couple of oasises few hundred miles away.
Oh, I've Googled and searched and read the mailing lists. I've had 
off-list conversations with people who have used Alien/FFI about what I 
need. It is presently beyond my current skill and knowledge and time to 
acquire said knowledge. I am not saying it isn't doable. I am saying at 
the moment it isn't anything I have the time to pursue. I already have 
in place a working solution. It isn't as nice as  I would like, or