Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:28 AM, Sudhakar Krishnamachari wrote: Good to see some of the concerns addressed. Now so far I do not see companies really putting effort so may be nothing will happen but this will not be because of us. :) This is the chicken and egg situation. Bar highly motivated startups with some money in their pockets to splurge on with. The average co consists of average managers who want no risk..!. They want a technology they can blame for its shortcomings/ the support offered by another co if they are stuck for a fix. But in most ( I would say 90+% of timeline) cases the business continuity should not be affected. Sure this is clear. Now my point is pragmatic. The average company will probably not invest their time on a technology if it does not meet the bar set by the current technology. Well lot of companies are using seaside and pharo and as such the fact that the infrastructure is getting better is important. Let me take Spring Architecture as an example in the Java world. J2EE was ( and to an extent is) entrenched in the world of Java enterprise. Way back about 8 yrs back or so .. Rod Johnson started his foray in to simplifying the complexity of J2EE with his framework. I would say through atleast 4+ yrs of the 8 he would have close to nil support from any company and like the Jim Collins Good to Great simile built up the giant wheel momentum now to engage nearly all known companies to use Spring all through instead of J2EE except in the niche cases. Its is an instruction to notice how Spring got interfaces to nearly all of Java connected that would be possibly needed for a medium enterprise case and then went into the depths/ specialization etc.. that is breadth first and then the depth. So I would say WE (including myself as a avowed Smaltalker) need to keep trying and pushing for a concerted go at getting Pharo up there.. and possibly the GiantWheel momentum will kick in with first a few co's and then more.. to push this rolling with god speed to its eventual greatness..!!.. welcome! And that indeed is happening and its suprised me how far Pharo has already rolled and is building a momentum that is sure to go far if I can put my little effort as all others to get some of the minimal frameworks integrated. we need help We have either of two approaches to take: meet up to the current bar set by Java/ .Net world in terms of programming baseline ( as I listed in the prior mail) or take a radical approach that differs so much and offers so much to pull in others..like Rails did. I would say if we are interested in the numbers game I would choose the former, if we wish to retain the intellectual high ground and move on the latter is fine.. we can have a vision, a vision without action does not exist. What we are doing are - providing robust infrastructure - making the system lean and clean - slowly rewriting parts now if people with other agendas want to focus on other parts we are more than happy. To get the numbers to have an interest in Pharo I will go back to my charter for Smalltalk spread in Universities / Colleges ( the underlying reason I started SmalltalkIndia) and see how far it can be resuscitated to create a mass base of users ( even if they are amateurs) and then hope a good percentage of them retain a greater interest to contribute spare time to improve the frameworks in Pharo. Would be great. Let me know how I can help Do you know I have free slides? http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/Resources/LecturesInPowerpoint/ * Just count how many smalltalkers we can get in a low cost centers who can code.. well Contrast this with how many Java programmers you can get.. can manage with google/ info base available Count the external frameworks open source developed , tested and trustable to be used in production code from Java nearly all free. Count the same for Smalltalk App servers.. comparable to Websphere/ weblogic/ Tomcat / lots of others, not to mention messaging queue, transaction control , JDBC like framework for nearly all DBs with high performance guaranteed, the list goes on.. The support logistics in terms CMS: viz SVN kinds, better integration / build systems like maven etc.. and evolutions in terms of frameworks that Java has spewed.. .Net in its Visual Studio et als.. Good brains together can counter all of the above arguments, but that is a limitation by itself, you cannot get good 25-50brains in one premises to work together on one single product, even if you do have them you cannot easily replace them with new recruits and be cost effective in general. From an ease of development and risk free managment angle, I find this an impossible proposition to convince any mgmt to take up Smalltalk for their dev. The target is the average developer, the
[Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
My two cents long time in my blog on exactly the same subject: Its great to see a free version of Smalltalk at last measuring up to the needs of using it in an business sense and showing it to non-Smalltalker’s and the “IT managers” and not put them off. I am sure this is going to make it difficult for VA and Cincom to create new small-medium shop sales going forward especially with Seaside, Magritte and raft of other frameworks actually being born in Squeak. There obviously is the crying need for High Priority: Enusure very high reliability of the base Pharo. No bugs that are not fixable by the average developer with a bit of google and sending a few emails. If it needs that one expert in one other end.. business continuity is hugely impacted Primary: * better-faster VM aka Cog mainstream * Highly performant DBMS connectivity natively akin to JDBC through to all DBs no DB specific stuff like now, the Squeak DBX is not business friendly. * Comprehensive Web Services + XMLRPC * Pharo-Groovy bridge and / or Pharo-Ruby bridge ( or can we make Pharo work in tandem with a JVM..! this will help leverage the tons of frameworks in existence even if they are tad slower than native Java) * Configuration Management System plugin for SVN * Acceleration of easy docs and plugins/ web development related framework interfaces from Seaside viz flex/ silverlight: many that are possible as of now, but needs a Smalltalk expert to cobble it up * Have not really gone deeper with Webclient/ FTPClient/ SMTPClient et als. they need to be really simple/ highly reliable/ dumbed down for the average coder to pick snippets and make it work May be lots more.. I can bring in lot more thought this in terms of Generic/ Sectoral or Domain/ Type of Apps preferences viz: Banking/Insurance/Utilities/Technical/ Web vs GUI etc ...So first we should think hard on the segment you want to hit harder.. Secondary: * Better tools for GUI Dev and more standard GUI development capabilities * Make Pharo easily usable for a team of 100+ developers together in one/multiple locations with code synch issues, change / version control , performance ( a host of other stuff included) taken care of. * Pluggable to industry standard tools for development: Rational/ Together Soft viz for UML creation and conversion to code / reverse engineer code to UML Follow through with: * Pluggable with QTP/ Testing Automation tools.. Actually this is very important in the standard large volume development. Makes a huge difference for the risk mitigation for the company. really inexpensive , kind of not so highly technical staff runs this show in comparison to Unit Tests/ test automation through ST code is a more riskier investment and I have not seen in JAva/ .Net / or even Smalltalk large legacy projects unit test done and maintained well enough -Skrish ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
2010/8/29 Sudhakar Krishnamachari skrishnamach...@gmail.com My two cents long time in my blog on exactly the same subject: Its great to see a free version of Smalltalk at last measuring up to the needs of using it in an business sense and showing it to non-Smalltalker’s and the “IT managers” and not put them off. I am sure this is going to make it difficult for VA and Cincom to create new small-medium shop sales going forward especially with Seaside, Magritte and raft of other frameworks actually being born in Squeak. There obviously is the crying need for High Priority: Enusure very high reliability of the base Pharo. No bugs that are not fixable by the average developer with a bit of google and sending a few emails. If it needs that one expert in one other end.. business continuity is hugely impacted Primary: * better-faster VM aka Cog mainstream * Highly performant DBMS connectivity natively Hi and thanks for the notes. There is NO way to have native Smalltlak driver for propietary databases. Even if I would love to have the database driver implemented in Smalltalk rather than calling a C library, this is not possible with propiertary databases. If you don't have a public protocol or API there is no way to build the driver. Do you think Oracle or Microsoft would do a Smalltalk driver? I doubt it. Sofor propietary databasesyou have to somehow, use of the the existing database drivers. ALL databases have a driver in C, usually called Database Client Library. C is fast, and we have FFI. That's why SqueakDBX choosed OpenDBX. akin to JDBC through to all DBs no DB specific stuff like now, the Squeak DBX is not business friendly. Are you talking about SqueakDBX project ? (http://www.squeakdbx.org/) If so, I would like you say it is not businness friendly. * Comprehensive Web Services + XMLRPC * Pharo-Groovy bridge and / or Pharo-Ruby bridge ( or can we make Pharo work in tandem with a JVM..! this will help leverage the tons of frameworks in existence even if they are tad slower than native Java) * Configuration Management System plugin for SVN There is SqueakSVN project. And I think in SCM they are doing to GIT. * Acceleration of easy docs and plugins/ web development related framework interfaces from Seaside viz flex/ silverlight: many that are possible as of now, but needs a Smalltalk expert to cobble it up * Have not really gone deeper with Webclient/ FTPClient/ SMTPClient et als. they need to be really simple/ highly reliable/ dumbed down for the average coder to pick snippets and make it work May be lots more.. I can bring in lot more thought this in terms of Generic/ Sectoral or Domain/ Type of Apps preferences viz: Banking/Insurance/Utilities/Technical/ Web vs GUI etc ...So first we should think hard on the segment you want to hit harder.. Secondary: * Better tools for GUI Dev and more standard GUI development capabilities * Make Pharo easily usable for a team of 100+ developers together in one/multiple locations with code synch issues, change / version control , performance ( a host of other stuff included) taken care of. Agree. Torch project seems that could help here. Altoguht Monticello 2 or similar would be needed. * Pluggable to industry standard tools for development: Rational/ Together Soft viz for UML creation and conversion to code / reverse engineer code to UML Carla worked on UML for this year GSoC project. It would probably be integrated soon in Pharo. Follow through with: * Pluggable with QTP/ Testing Automation tools.. Actually this is very important in the standard large volume development. Makes a huge difference for the risk mitigation for the company. really inexpensive , kind of not so highly technical staff runs this show in comparison to Unit Tests/ test automation through ST code is a more riskier investment and I have not seen in JAva/ .Net / or even Smalltalk large legacy projects unit test done and maintained well enough -Skrish ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Yes, I would like to know why you think aqueakdbx is not business suitable... this is not in self-defese! we want to improve and your opinion matters :) On 2010-08-29 12:47:15 -0300, Mariano Martinez Peck marianop...@gmail.com said: 2010/8/29 Sudhakar Krishnamachari skrishnamach...@gmail.com My two cents long time in my blog on exactly the same subject: Its great to see a free version of Smalltalk at last measuring up to the needs of using it in an business sense and showing it to non-Smalltalker= =92s and the =93IT managers=94 and not put them off. I am sure this is going t= o make it difficult for VA and Cincom to create new small-medium shop sales goin= g forward especially with Seaside, Magritte and raft of other frameworks actually being born in Squeak. There obviously is the crying need for High Priority: Enusure very high reliability of the base Pharo. No bugs that are not fixable by the average developer with a bit of google and sending a few emails. If it needs that one expert in one other end.. business continuit= y is hugely impacted Primary: * better-faster VM aka Cog mainstream * Highly performant DBMS connectivity natively Hi and thanks for the notes. There is NO way to have native Smalltlak driver for propietary databases. Even if I would love to have the database driver implemented in Smalltalk rather than calling a C library, this is not possible with propiertary databases. If you don't have a public protocol or API there is no way to build the driver. Do you think Oracle or Microsoft would do a Smalltalk driver? I doubt it. Sofor propietary databasesyou have to somehow, use of the the existing database drivers. ALL databases have a driver in C, usually called Database Client Library. C is fast, and we have FFI. That's why SqueakDBX choosed OpenDBX. akin to JDBC through to all DBs no DB specific stuff like now, the Squeak DBX is not business friendly. Are you talking about SqueakDBX project ? (http://www.squeakdbx.org/) If so, I would like you say it is not businness friendly. * Comprehensive Web Services + XMLRPC * Pharo-Groovy bridge and / or Pharo-Ruby bridge ( or can we make Pharo work in tandem with a JVM..! this will help leverage the tons of framewo= rks in existence even if they are tad slower than native Java) * Configuration Management System plugin for SVN There is SqueakSVN project. And I think in SCM they are doing to GIT. * Acceleration of easy docs and plugins/ web development related framewor= k interfaces from Seaside viz flex/ silverlight: many that are possible as = of now, but needs a Smalltalk expert to cobble it up * Have not really gone deeper with Webclient/ FTPClient/ SMTPClient et al= s. they need to be really simple/ highly reliable/ dumbed down for the avera= ge coder to pick snippets and make it work May be lots more.. I can bring in lot more thought this in terms of Generic/ Sectoral or Domain/ Type of Apps preferences viz: Banking/Insurance/Utilities/Technical/ Web vs GUI etc ...So first we shou= ld think hard on the segment you want to hit harder.. Secondary: * Better tools for GUI Dev and more standard GUI development capabilities * Make Pharo easily usable for a team of 100+ developers together in one/multiple locations with code synch issues, change / version control , performance ( a host of other stuff included) taken care of. Agree. Torch project seems that could help here. Altoguht Monticello 2 or similar would be needed. * Pluggable to industry standard tools for development: Rational/ Togethe= r Soft viz for UML creation and conversion to code / reverse engineer code = to UML Carla worked on UML for this year GSoC project. It would probably be integrated soon in Pharo. Follow through with: * Pluggable with QTP/ Testing Automation tools.. Actually this is very important in the standard large volume development. Makes a huge differen= ce for the risk mitigation for the company. really inexpensive , kind of not= so highly technical staff runs this show in comparison to Unit Tests/ test automation through ST code is a more riskier investment and I have not se= en in JAva/ .Net / or even Smalltalk large legacy projects unit test done an= d maintained well enough -Skrish ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project brbrdiv class=3Dgmail_quote2010/8/29 Sudhakar Krishnamachari span = dir=3Dltrlt;a href=3Dmailto:skrishnamach...@gmail.com;skrishnamachar= i...@gmail.com/agt;/spanbrblockquote class=3Dgmail_quote style=3Dma= rgin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding= -left: 1ex; My two cents long time in my blog on exactly the same subject:brbrIts g= reat to see a free version of Smalltalk at last measuring up to the needs of using it in an business sense and showing it to
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Thanks for your list. Now my comments. Did you guess why I asked this pol? - How can companies expect that all these points will be done if nobody puts money on the table or allocate time of their employee, or open source some of their software? Magic, wishful thinking? - We will do what we can and what is in our critical path. - We are thinking a consortium of companies and institutions that could be willing to help pharo. Now so far I do not see companies really putting effort so may be nothing will happen but this will not be because of us. :) High Priority: Enusure very high reliability of the base Pharo. No bugs that are not fixable by the average developer with a bit of google and sending a few emails. If it needs that one expert in one other end.. business continuity is hugely impacted - INRIA is putting 24 months expert engineer on the table and we will clean and simplify the core. Now we will see what will happen. Primary: * better-faster VM aka Cog mainstream Teleplace played it the perfect way. I think that they will gain from the help of the community but so far I imagine that they pay every month the salary of people to develop and maintain Cog so again no real magic. * Highly performant DBMS connectivity natively akin to JDBC through to all DBs no DB specific stuff like now, the Squeak DBX is not business friendly * Comprehensive Web Services + XMLRPC there is a XMLRPC package that cries to get improved. Just allocate some time and improve it. * Pharo-Groovy bridge and / or Pharo-Ruby bridge ( or can we make Pharo work in tandem with a JVM..! this will help leverage the tons of frameworks in existence even if they are tad slower than native Java) There is javaconnect and JNI and I imagine that people are welcomed to help and improve. * Configuration Management System plugin for SVN * Acceleration of easy docs and plugins/ web development related framework interfaces from Seaside viz flex/ silverlight: many that are possible as of now, but needs a Smalltalk expert to cobble it up did you discuss that in the seaside mailing-list * Have not really gone deeper with Webclient/ FTPClient/ SMTPClient et als. they need to be really simple/ highly reliable/ dumbed down for the average coder to pick snippets and make it work Yes May be lots more.. I can bring in lot more thought this in terms of Generic/ Sectoral or Domain/ Type of Apps preferences viz: Banking/Insurance/Utilities/Technical/ Web vs GUI etc ...So first we should think hard on the segment you want to hit harder.. Secondary: * Better tools for GUI Dev and more standard GUI development capabilities yes but again... * Make Pharo easily usable for a team of 100+ developers together in one/multiple locations with code synch issues, change / version control , performance ( a host of other stuff included) taken care of. There is Monticello. ***we*** are working on a fast binary loader but but but nothing is clear. * Pluggable to industry standard tools for development: Rational/ Together Soft viz for UML creation and conversion to code / reverse engineer code to UML why would I spent my time without support to connect with tools that cost thousands dollars a license? Follow through with: * Pluggable with QTP/ Testing Automation tools.. Actually this is very important in the standard large volume development. Makes a huge difference for the risk mitigation for the company. really inexpensive , kind of not so highly technical staff runs this show in comparison to Unit Tests/ test automation through ST code is a more riskier investment and I have not seen in JAva/ .Net / or even Smalltalk large legacy projects unit test done and maintained well enough It seems that pharo is the first smalltalk to have a good integration with hudson (thanks guys we know who you are) so there is definitively some good news on that item. -Skrish ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Good to see some of the concerns addressed. Now so far I do not see companies really putting effort so may be nothing will happen but this will not be because of us. :) This is the chicken and egg situation. Bar highly motivated startups with some money in their pockets to splurge on with. The average co consists of average managers who want no risk..!. They want a technology they can blame for its shortcomings/ the support offered by another co if they are stuck for a fix. But in most ( I would say 90+% of timeline) cases the business continuity should not be affected. The average company will probably not invest their time on a technology if it does not meet the bar set by the current technology. Let me take Spring Architecture as an example in the Java world. J2EE was ( and to an extent is) entrenched in the world of Java enterprise. Way back about 8 yrs back or so .. Rod Johnson started his foray in to simplifying the complexity of J2EE with his framework. I would say through atleast 4+ yrs of the 8 he would have close to nil support from any company and like the Jim Collins Good to Great simile built up the giant wheel momentum now to engage nearly all known companies to use Spring all through instead of J2EE except in the niche cases. Its is an instruction to notice how Spring got interfaces to nearly all of Java connected that would be possibly needed for a medium enterprise case and then went into the depths/ specialization etc.. that is breadth first and then the depth. So I would say WE (including myself as a avowed Smaltalker) need to keep trying and pushing for a concerted go at getting Pharo up there.. and possibly the GiantWheel momentum will kick in with first a few co's and then more.. to push this rolling with god speed to its eventual greatness..!!.. And that indeed is happening and its suprised me how far Pharo has already rolled and is building a momentum that is sure to go far if I can put my little effort as all others to get some of the minimal frameworks integrated. We have either of two approaches to take: meet up to the current bar set by Java/ .Net world in terms of programming baseline ( as I listed in the prior mail) or take a radical approach that differs so much and offers so much to pull in others..like Rails did. I would say if we are interested in the numbers game I would choose the former, if we wish to retain the intellectual high ground and move on the latter is fine.. To get the numbers to have an interest in Pharo I will go back to my charter for Smalltalk spread in Universities / Colleges ( the underlying reason I started SmalltalkIndia) and see how far it can be resuscitated to create a mass base of users ( even if they are amateurs) and then hope a good percentage of them retain a greater interest to contribute spare time to improve the frameworks in Pharo. * Just count how many smalltalkers we can get in a low cost centers who can code.. well Contrast this with how many Java programmers you can get.. can manage with google/ info base available Count the external frameworks open source developed , tested and trustable to be used in production code from Java nearly all free. Count the same for Smalltalk App servers.. comparable to Websphere/ weblogic/ Tomcat / lots of others, not to mention messaging queue, transaction control , JDBC like framework for nearly all DBs with high performance guaranteed, the list goes on.. The support logistics in terms CMS: viz SVN kinds, better integration / build systems like maven etc.. and evolutions in terms of frameworks that Java has spewed.. .Net in its Visual Studio et als.. Good brains together can counter all of the above arguments, but that is a limitation by itself, you cannot get good 25-50brains in one premises to work together on one single product, even if you do have them you cannot easily replace them with new recruits and be cost effective in general. From an ease of development and risk free managment angle, I find this an impossible proposition to convince any mgmt to take up Smalltalk for their dev. The target is the average developer, the risk averse corporate entity in all its evolution whether its .Net or Java. For all the reasons above, corporate use of ST is a difficult game for niche languages like Smalltalk, but a target I would like to see achieved in the near term.. * -Skrish On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Sudhakar Krishnamachari skrishnamach...@gmail.com wrote: My two cents long time in my blog on exactly the same subject: -Skrish ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:40 PM, Germán Arduino gardu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Mariano: I was thinking the same (or use the already existing Ideas page). But I can't modify nor create new pages. yes, maybe you are right. I forgot about that wiki page. http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/IdeasToImplement It seems that first it needs an update as some things have already been done ;) Cheers. 2010/8/10 Mariano Martinez Peck marianop...@gmail.com: It would be nice of someone can collect all these ideas, and the future ideas that derive from the different threads, and put them together somewhere. I am not sure if a issue is the best approach. I would create a wiki page where all that information is written in kind of bullet. With that, we have a big lists of projects of interest. Maybe people is interested in doing a project maybe for university, master, or maybe because it just have time. For each bullet we can also link to the thread of discussion for example. This list will be a kind of wishlist for Pharo. Hopefully someone has time to write this down... Cheers Mariano On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernan...@gmail.com wrote: - loading binary code in an existging Pharo installation. It will ease to make very tiny Pharo application. Useful for plateform with limited resources. Hilaire Le 10/08/2010 14:37, Stephan Eggermont a écrit : Philippe wrote: Rather than imagining what problems non-users could have I'd focus on what problems existing users have. Instead of building libraries that you'll have to maintain forever I'd focus in infrastructure that allows users to write the libraries they need themselves. Executive summary: - HTTP(S) - SqueakDBX - VM/Cog/kernel/FFI/Alien - making it possible to use all the memory in my system: 64 bit. Stephan ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
[Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Philippe wrote: Rather than imagining what problems non-users could have I'd focus on what problems existing users have. Instead of building libraries that you'll have to maintain forever I'd focus in infrastructure that allows users to write the libraries they need themselves. Executive summary: - HTTP(S) - SqueakDBX - VM/Cog/kernel/FFI/Alien - making it possible to use all the memory in my system: 64 bit. Stephan ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
- loading binary code in an existging Pharo installation. It will ease to make very tiny Pharo application. Useful for plateform with limited resources. Hilaire Le 10/08/2010 14:37, Stephan Eggermont a écrit : Philippe wrote: Rather than imagining what problems non-users could have I'd focus on what problems existing users have. Instead of building libraries that you'll have to maintain forever I'd focus in infrastructure that allows users to write the libraries they need themselves. Executive summary: - HTTP(S) - SqueakDBX - VM/Cog/kernel/FFI/Alien - making it possible to use all the memory in my system: 64 bit. Stephan ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
It would be nice of someone can collect all these ideas, and the future ideas that derive from the different threads, and put them together somewhere. I am not sure if a issue is the best approach. I would create a wiki page where all that information is written in kind of bullet. With that, we have a big lists of projects of interest. Maybe people is interested in doing a project maybe for university, master, or maybe because it just have time. For each bullet we can also link to the thread of discussion for example. This list will be a kind of wishlist for Pharo. Hopefully someone has time to write this down... Cheers Mariano On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernan...@gmail.com wrote: - loading binary code in an existging Pharo installation. It will ease to make very tiny Pharo application. Useful for plateform with limited resources. Hilaire Le 10/08/2010 14:37, Stephan Eggermont a écrit : Philippe wrote: Rather than imagining what problems non-users could have I'd focus on what problems existing users have. Instead of building libraries that you'll have to maintain forever I'd focus in infrastructure that allows users to write the libraries they need themselves. Executive summary: - HTTP(S) - SqueakDBX - VM/Cog/kernel/FFI/Alien - making it possible to use all the memory in my system: 64 bit. Stephan ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Hi Mariano: I was thinking the same (or use the already existing Ideas page). But I can't modify nor create new pages. Cheers. 2010/8/10 Mariano Martinez Peck marianop...@gmail.com: It would be nice of someone can collect all these ideas, and the future ideas that derive from the different threads, and put them together somewhere. I am not sure if a issue is the best approach. I would create a wiki page where all that information is written in kind of bullet. With that, we have a big lists of projects of interest. Maybe people is interested in doing a project maybe for university, master, or maybe because it just have time. For each bullet we can also link to the thread of discussion for example. This list will be a kind of wishlist for Pharo. Hopefully someone has time to write this down... Cheers Mariano On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Hilaire Fernandes hilaire.fernan...@gmail.com wrote: - loading binary code in an existging Pharo installation. It will ease to make very tiny Pharo application. Useful for plateform with limited resources. Hilaire Le 10/08/2010 14:37, Stephan Eggermont a écrit : Philippe wrote: Rather than imagining what problems non-users could have I'd focus on what problems existing users have. Instead of building libraries that you'll have to maintain forever I'd focus in infrastructure that allows users to write the libraries they need themselves. Executive summary: - HTTP(S) - SqueakDBX - VM/Cog/kernel/FFI/Alien - making it possible to use all the memory in my system: 64 bit. Stephan ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On 02.08.2010 21:50, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Rather than imagining what problems non-users could have I'd focus on what problems existing users have. Instead of building libraries that you'll have to maintain forever I'd focus in infrastructure that allows users to write the libraries they need themselves. Executive summary: - HTTP(S) - SqueakDBX - VM/Cog/kernel/FFI/Alien Something that always comes up is a usable HTTP client that does HTTPS, proxies, authentication, multipart, not have to load the entire response/request into memory, probably even keep-alive. WebClient could be the solution here once you have documentation, examples and don't need an override on String #,. As more and more things are HTTP based these days having a good HTTP story is important. Again WebClient has an advantage here because it answers both the client and the server part. NTLMv2 would be awesome but may not be possible. What also seems to come up frequently is relational databases. I have already meat people who told me I would use Squeak/Pharo over dialect X if only I could connect to Oracle. Having a common interface for relational databases despite all the NoSQL hype is important even if it requires installing native (C) client libraries. SqueakDBX seems to be the only option here right now. And finally having a fast and stable kernel and runtime including Sockets/Semaphores/weak array finalization. That includes helping Eliot to make Cog a replacement for the current VM. That includes having a prebuilt Coq VM available with warning signs. That includes having an easy way to bind C libraries without writing a plugin. That includes non-blocking FFI calls. That may include having a way to do sendfile()/TransmitFile() on sockets. That may include instead of having Semaphore, Mutex and Monitor only having the class that you're supposed to use. That may include a ReadWriteLock. Cheers Philippe ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On Aug 7, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote: On 02.08.2010 21:50, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Rather than imagining what problems non-users could have I'd focus on what problems existing users have. Instead of building libraries that you'll have to maintain forever I'd focus in infrastructure that allows users to write the libraries they need themselves. Yes! But a poll is interesting. Executive summary: - HTTP(S) - SqueakDBX - VM/Cog/kernel/FFI/Alien The last line is really into our radar and our engineer will make sure FFI/Alien will work 100% Noury and luc really need sockets and started to rewrite them using Alien and this something that we want to push too. Something that always comes up is a usable HTTP client that does HTTPS, proxies, authentication, multipart, not have to load the entire response/request into memory, probably even keep-alive. WebClient could be the solution here once you have documentation, examples and don't need an override on String #,. As more and more things are HTTP based these days having a good HTTP story is important. Again WebClient has an advantage here because it answers both the client and the server part. NTLMv2 would be awesome but may not be possible. For WebClient this is good that andreas started to clean that part we really want to support that effort and this was also in our radar What also seems to come up frequently is relational databases. I have already meat people who told me I would use Squeak/Pharo over dialect X if only I could connect to Oracle. Having a common interface for relational databases despite all the NoSQL hype is important even if it requires installing native (C) client libraries. SqueakDBX seems to be the only option here right now. this is why ESUG supported this project over the years. And finally having a fast and stable kernel and runtime including Sockets/Semaphores/weak array finalization. That includes helping Eliot to make Cog a replacement for the current VM. That includes having a prebuilt Coq VM available with warning signs. That includes having an easy way to bind C libraries without writing a plugin. See above. Yes That includes non-blocking FFI calls. That may include having a way to do sendfile()/TransmitFile() on sockets. That may include instead of having Semaphore, Mutex and Monitor only having the class that you're supposed to use. That may include a ReadWriteLock. I do not know :) but we will know it soon (by january or february) Cheers Philippe ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
- a vector-based graphics engine, which can use GPU for fast rendering. :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Stef, Great news about the sockets rewrite!! On my wish list includes OpenSSL (Andreas appears to be making strides there??) and to see the end of polling for connections. Ideally, one could set the type of socket to be either TCP, UDP (for those who must), IrDA, etc. and have it work. It would also be nice to be able to get events when the other side closes the connection. Good network programming requires good error handling, and asynchronous activity. One must be able to reboot peers, turn off hubs, yank wires (name it) and not have the software hang. I don't think I care whether that is done with asynch sockets or blocking ones called on OS threads, but we're not done until it never hangs. Bill From: pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [stephane.duca...@inria.fr] Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 10:50 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business On Aug 7, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote: On 02.08.2010 21:50, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Rather than imagining what problems non-users could have I'd focus on what problems existing users have. Instead of building libraries that you'll have to maintain forever I'd focus in infrastructure that allows users to write the libraries they need themselves. Yes! But a poll is interesting. Executive summary: - HTTP(S) - SqueakDBX - VM/Cog/kernel/FFI/Alien The last line is really into our radar and our engineer will make sure FFI/Alien will work 100% Noury and luc really need sockets and started to rewrite them using Alien and this something that we want to push too. Something that always comes up is a usable HTTP client that does HTTPS, proxies, authentication, multipart, not have to load the entire response/request into memory, probably even keep-alive. WebClient could be the solution here once you have documentation, examples and don't need an override on String #,. As more and more things are HTTP based these days having a good HTTP story is important. Again WebClient has an advantage here because it answers both the client and the server part. NTLMv2 would be awesome but may not be possible. For WebClient this is good that andreas started to clean that part we really want to support that effort and this was also in our radar What also seems to come up frequently is relational databases. I have already meat people who told me I would use Squeak/Pharo over dialect X if only I could connect to Oracle. Having a common interface for relational databases despite all the NoSQL hype is important even if it requires installing native (C) client libraries. SqueakDBX seems to be the only option here right now. this is why ESUG supported this project over the years. And finally having a fast and stable kernel and runtime including Sockets/Semaphores/weak array finalization. That includes helping Eliot to make Cog a replacement for the current VM. That includes having a prebuilt Coq VM available with warning signs. That includes having an easy way to bind C libraries without writing a plugin. See above. Yes That includes non-blocking FFI calls. That may include having a way to do sendfile()/TransmitFile() on sockets. That may include instead of having Semaphore, Mutex and Monitor only having the class that you're supposed to use. That may include a ReadWriteLock. I do not know :) but we will know it soon (by january or february) Cheers Philippe ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
2010/8/3 laurent laffont laurent.laff...@gmail.com On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Libraries Make connecting to C libraries/Java libraries as plainless as possible. Make discovery of available Smalltalk libraries less painful: * There's little or no differentiation on squeaksource between great, well-tested reliable code, and my first Smalltalk project * Be great if ESUG sponsored the infrastructure for something like Apache commons (http://commons.apache.org/) for Smalltalk projects. They have three designations: 1) Commons Proper - repository of reusable components 2) Commons Sandbox - workspace for component development 3) Repository of sandbox components that are currently inactive * This would aid in the discovery of projects. * Ideally projects in the equivalent to commons proper would be part of a CI system like Lukas' Hudson setup (http://hudson.lukas-renggli.ch/) HTH Nick ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
- A scalable source code management system (MC gets very slw for large projects) - A change recovery mechanism that is not tedious (e.g., no mix of class definitions and do-its) - Better system integration: - OSProcess reliable and working for all major platforms - FFI/Alien; bindings to external libraries - A mature HTTP client (-WebClient looks good) - A decent Smalltalk library to interact with the file system - Clients for new DBs (was mentioned before) - OAuth (was mentioned before) Cheers, Adrian On Aug 2, 2010, at 21:50 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Hi, - A scalable source code management system (MC gets very slw for large projects) - A change recovery mechanism that is not tedious (e.g., no mix of class definitions and do-its) - Better system integration: - OSProcess reliable and working for all major platforms - FFI/Alien; bindings to external libraries +10 - A mature HTTP client (-WebClient looks good) - A decent Smalltalk library to interact with the file system I am using FileSystem and it is quite nice. I would vote to integrate it in Pharo, if not in PharoCore. Doru - Clients for new DBs (was mentioned before) - OAuth (was mentioned before) Cheers, Adrian On Aug 2, 2010, at 21:50 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com One cannot do more than one can do. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On Aug 3, 2010, at 9:16 AM, Nick Ager wrote: 2010/8/3 laurent laffont laurent.laff...@gmail.com On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Libraries Make connecting to C libraries/Java libraries as plainless as possible. Make discovery of available Smalltalk libraries less painful: * There's little or no differentiation on squeaksource between great, well-tested reliable code, and my first Smalltalk project yes we will have to address that and I believe that it should go via metacello * Be great if ESUG sponsored the infrastructure for something like Apache commons (http://commons.apache.org/) for Smalltalk projects. They have three designations: 1) Commons Proper - repository of reusable components 2) Commons Sandbox - workspace for component development 3) Repository of sandbox components that are currently inactive good idea. Now inactive does not mean sandboxed :) but yes we should have a categorisation of the projects. We should be able to put that in place with bibliocello. * This would aid in the discovery of projects. * Ideally projects in the equivalent to commons proper would be part of a CI system like Lukas' Hudson setup (http://hudson.lukas-renggli.ch/) HTH Nick ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: Hi, - A scalable source code management system (MC gets very slw for large projects) - A change recovery mechanism that is not tedious (e.g., no mix of class definitions and do-its) - Better system integration: - OSProcess reliable and working for all major platforms - FFI/Alien; bindings to external libraries +10 - A mature HTTP client (-WebClient looks good) - A decent Smalltalk library to interact with the file system I am using FileSystem and it is quite nice. I would vote to integrate it in Pharo, if not in PharoCore. Me too but it should handle utf8. Doru - Clients for new DBs (was mentioned before) - OAuth (was mentioned before) Cheers, Adrian On Aug 2, 2010, at 21:50 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- www.tudorgirba.com One cannot do more than one can do. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Ok guys you get a nice list of wishes. Now how could we proceed since ESUG is not the national swiss bank. What I envisioned is the following: - we select a topic like - improving webClient - OAuth (http://oauth.net/) - open-id (http://openid.net/) We know some excellent developers (that because of the economical situations of their countries) are also cheap. or you get bored and do not need to work to be payed and you can do them, this would be even better. We ask for an estimate. We create a pot where companies and esug as well can put money in. We do a large call. We wait that there is enough money in the pot and the project gets done. Does it make sense? else if you have magic powder let me know. Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
- A decent Smalltalk library to interact with the file system I am using FileSystem and it is quite nice. I would vote to integrate it in Pharo, if not in PharoCore. Me too but it should handle utf8. I fixed that (the encoding issue of filenames) and many other things. Max discovered quite a few bugs while working on GitFS. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
How about including for each project a designated project sponsor/mentor/project manager who's job is liase between the developer(s) and the community and to ensure that a project focuses on the communities highest priorities. On 3 August 2010 10:30, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote: Ok guys you get a nice list of wishes. Now how could we proceed since ESUG is not the national swiss bank. What I envisioned is the following: - we select a topic like - improving webClient - OAuth (http://oauth.net/) - open-id (http://openid.net/) We know some excellent developers (that because of the economical situations of their countries) are also cheap. or you get bored and do not need to work to be payed and you can do them, this would be even better. We ask for an estimate. We create a pot where companies and esug as well can put money in. We do a large call. We wait that there is enough money in the pot and the project gets done. Does it make sense? else if you have magic powder let me know. Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
***Excellent!*** So we could really introduced it in 1.2. Let me know :) If some people want to join and help it can be done :) Stef On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Lukas Renggli wrote: - A decent Smalltalk library to interact with the file system I am using FileSystem and it is quite nice. I would vote to integrate it in Pharo, if not in PharoCore. Me too but it should handle utf8. I fixed that (the encoding issue of filenames) and many other things. Max discovered quite a few bugs while working on GitFS. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On Aug 3, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Nick Ager wrote: How about including for each project a designated project sponsor/ sponsor is different from the mentor/project manager mentor/project manager who's job is liase between the developer(s) and the community and to ensure that a project focuses on the communities highest priorities. For now this is not the problem. :) On 3 August 2010 10:30, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote: Ok guys you get a nice list of wishes. Now how could we proceed since ESUG is not the national swiss bank. What I envisioned is the following: - we select a topic like - improving webClient - OAuth (http://oauth.net/) - open-id (http://openid.net/) We know some excellent developers (that because of the economical situations of their countries) are also cheap. or you get bored and do not need to work to be payed and you can do them, this would be even better. We ask for an estimate. We create a pot where companies and esug as well can put money in. We do a large call. We wait that there is enough money in the pot and the project gets done. Does it make sense? else if you have magic powder let me know. Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Hehe, that (or similar) was allways on my mind. In the past I started a project I named SDA (Smalltalk Developer Assistant) focused on lot of things that may be shortened as Code Generation :) as Genexus does. One more time, the lack of free time and the need of focus the time on payed projects did their work and the project is almost abandonedbut I agree that a tool that could do somethings automagically would help in 2 areas: 1. Attracting more people, and 2. Make the life of current Smalltalkers a bit more easy :) Germán. 2010/8/3 laurent laffont laurent.laff...@gmail.com: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? I would prefer: What kind of powerful task should be made easy out of the box ? - connect to a legacy MySQL database, send SQL requests and manipulate results - describe relations (a Library has many Books and Subscribers) - generate - Seaside (and/or Iliad or desktop) / view / controllers / models / database automatically setup. Plug in custom relations. - build an UI and create custom widgets. - deploy desktop and/or web app. and showcases + documentation. So Pharo can attracts new developpers who can say wooww, so easy !. More developpers - more business needs - more contributions. Laurent Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Levente Uzonyi-2 wrote: =Documentation= Nobody likes to write documentation. I've started to enjoy writing class comments and tests. Especially when I go back to system classes (that I figured out every last detail about) a week later and can pick up where I left off :) Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Poll-missing-libraries-to-support-business-tp2310842p2311844.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
I've started to enjoy writing class comments and tests. Especially when I go back to system classes (that I figured out every last detail about) a week later and can pick up where I left off :) Hi sean (prononced chon in french ;-D ) It was nice to meet you. If you have class comments for the core please send them. Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
[Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Here are some of the things I'm missing: fulltext search/text retrieval - fuzzy search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximate_string_matching) - proximity search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_search_(text)) - stemming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stemming) - faceted search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faceted_search) If there were a good support or integration with collections that could ease a lot of use cases especially in web environments. At the moment I'm serializing objects to XML documents and put this into SOLR (http://lucene.apache.org/solr/). Before tsearch2 on postgresql spatial data services -- - quad-tree (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadtree) - r-tree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-tree) Again nice integration with collections would be very powerful. Spatial data are more and more important. There is support for google maps and such but no support to store spatial data. Back then I used postGis (on postgresql) for that. authentication frameworks -- - OAuth (http://oauth.net/) - open-id (http://openid.net/) To ease the authentication of users and web APIs those two mentioned are quite important (needs checking) That are the ones I miss on a regular basis. hope this helps, Norbert On 02.08.2010, at 21:50, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
El lun, 02-08-2010 a las 22:26 +0200, Norbert Hartl escribió: Here are some of the things I'm missing: fulltext search/text retrieval - fuzzy search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximate_string_matching) - proximity search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_search_(text)) - stemming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stemming) - faceted search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faceted_search) If there were a good support or integration with collections that could ease a lot of use cases especially in web environments. At the moment I'm serializing objects to XML documents and put this into SOLR (http://lucene.apache.org/solr/). Before tsearch2 on postgresql spatial data services -- - quad-tree (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadtree) - r-tree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-tree) Again nice integration with collections would be very powerful. Spatial data are more and more important. There is support for google maps and such but no support to store spatial data. Back then I used postGis (on postgresql) for that. authentication frameworks -- - OAuth (http://oauth.net/) + 1 to oauth. Now that Cyrpto code is working ok and webclient with https support exists, should be possible to have this. this will permit integration with facebook for apps. - open-id (http://openid.net/) There are a simple (incomplete) implementation of this in squeaksource, I think that was an experiment from Philippe, but it could be supported to have a complete implementation for smalltalk. To ease the authentication of users and web APIs those two mentioned are quite important (needs checking) That are the ones I miss on a regular basis. hope this helps, Norbert On 02.08.2010, at 21:50, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
=Platform integration= -multiple host windows -deeper platform look 'n feel =Documentation= cheers Mike On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
Somethings I would like to have: - Lockdown/Deployment Mode/disable programmer facilities (As was discussed here) - UI builder to desktop applications (Also discussed here) - Interface with nosql databases - Parallel processing / map reduce / other strategies to scalability Let me think about other things :) 2010/8/2 Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Michael Roberts wrote: =Platform integration= -multiple host windows -deeper platform look 'n feel wxSqueak is a perfect match. Too bad it's not finished and it uses ToolBuilder. =Documentation= Nobody likes to write documentation. Levente cheers Mike On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr wrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Re: [Pharo-project] Poll: missing libraries to support business
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.frwrote: Hi guys with the experience around the XMLRPC project, ESUG wants to change strategy to help growing business at the technical level. So what are the key areas where you think that effort should be supported to help you making business in smalltalk? I would prefer: What kind of powerful task should be made easy out of the box ? - connect to a legacy MySQL database, send SQL requests and manipulate results - describe relations (a Library has many Books and Subscribers) - generate - Seaside (and/or Iliad or desktop) / view / controllers / models / database automatically setup. Plug in custom relations. - build an UI and create custom widgets. - deploy desktop and/or web app. and showcases + documentation. So Pharo can attracts new developpers who can say wooww, so easy !. More developpers - more business needs - more contributions. Laurent Stef ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project ___ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
