[Pharo-users] [ANN] Camp Smalltalk Supreme's Speaker Line-up

[horrido . hobbies]

Here it is: https://campsmalltalksupreme.wordpress.com/2020/06/28/daily-events/

Looks like a very strong event!

[Pharo-users] [ANN] Announcing the Winner of the 2022 JRMPC Competition

[horrido . hobbies]

I am pleased to announce the winner of this year's JRMPC competition. The 
judges reviewed all the submissions and came to the extraordinary decision that 
only **Ana DuCristea** of John G. Diefenbaker High School in Calgary, AB was 
worthy of an award. Her work was outstanding and constituted enormous 
dedication and enthusiasm for Smalltalk. Unfortunately, none of the other 
contestants rose to the occasion and there will be no Second or Third Prizes.

Therefore, it is my decision that Ana DuCristea will receive the full prize 
fund of $2,500.

My most heart-felt congratulations to Ana. Well done!

[Pharo-users] [ANN] When Pigeons Talk: The Evolution of Programming Education

[horrido . hobbies]

I’d like to give a shout out to David Buck’s latest project: 
https://richardeng.medium.com/when-pigeons-talk-the-evolution-of-programming-education-6a12790ec5ea

I think it’s a very worthy project and it deserves your support.

By the way,  he’s one of the four keynote speakers at Camp Smalltalk Supreme. 
Don’t forget to register your presentations before the mid-March deadline.

Thanks,

Richard

[Pharo-users] [ANN] Registration Reminder for Camp Smalltalk

[horrido . hobbies]

Just a reminder to everyone that they should register their presentation at 
Camp Smalltalk by **March 13**, 2022. Here's the registration link: 
.

Please spread the word. Thanks.

[Pharo-users] [ANN] Last Day for JRMPC Registration

[horrido . hobbies]

We only have 10 registrations. This is a major disappointment.

Why the low turnout? We believe it’s because of the pandemic. High school 
students are tired and stressed out. The last thing they’re thinking about is a 
programming competition.

We will make the best of a bad situation. The competition will proceed as 
planned. Here is the Competition Format: [Competition Format – Object-Oriented 
(wordpress.com)](https://jrmpc2022.wordpress.com/2021/09/02/competition-format/).

This event will be a lead-up to Camp Smalltalk Supreme next June. Both are part 
of the anniversary celebration of Smalltalk.

[Pharo-users] Re: How to indent block of text

[horrido . hobbies]

Thanks. I need to have this engraved on my forehead.

Esteban Lorenzano wrote:

> hi,
>
> the command is : ctrl+shift+(l or r)
> Esteban
> On Oct 23 2021, at 2:44 pm, horrido.hobb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > No. I meant this: 
> > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/13675260/how-to-indent-a-block-of-code-in-pharo-squeak
> >
> > Pierre Misse wrote:
> >
> > > Ctrl+maj+f applies the formatting, which is configurable IIRC. Is it what 
> > > you're looking for?
> > > On 10/22/2021 10:35 PM, horrido.hobb...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Has indenting text changed in Pharo? Ctrl-Alt-R and Ctrl-Alt-L don’t 
> > > > work for me anymore.
> > > > Thanks.

[Pharo-users] Re: How to indent block of text

[horrido . hobbies]

No. I meant this: 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/13675260/how-to-indent-a-block-of-code-in-pharo-squeak

Pierre Misse wrote:

> Ctrl+maj+f applies the formatting, which is configurable IIRC.
> Is it what you're looking for?
>
> On 10/22/2021 10:35 PM, horrido.hobb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Has indenting text changed in Pharo? Ctrl-Alt-R and Ctrl-Alt-L don’t
> > work for me anymore.
> >
> > Thanks.

[Pharo-users] How to indent block of text

[horrido . hobbies]

Has indenting text changed in Pharo? Ctrl-Alt-R and Ctrl-Alt-L don’t work for 
me anymore.

Thanks.

[Pharo-users] How many active Smalltalkers worldwide?

[horrido . hobbies]

I’m guessing between 10 and 20 thousand. I’m guessing a few thousand for each 
of GemStone/S, Pharo, Squeak, VAST, and VisualWorks. I’m guessing a few hundred 
for each of Amber, Cuis, Dolphin, and GNU.

[Pharo-users] Re: R: Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

[horrido . hobbies]

With very few exceptions, no important programming language ever “dies.” Even 
APL and Forth are still in use today, if only in a small way (including their 
derivatives like J and Factor).

But from the perspective of the programming community at large, if a 
programming language no longer has a large user base, it’s effectively dead. 
This may not be fair but there you have it.

We may argue that it doesn’t matter. If Smalltalk serves a small community 
well, that’s the important thing.

I take a broader perspective. We live in a technological world where software 
development productivity is a serious bottleneck. Smalltalk has the potential 
to greatly alleviate this bottleneck. Cutting development time in half (or 
better) matters a lot. This, I believe, is what we must fight for.

We may fail. Indeed, we *probably* *will fail*. But if we don’t try, we 
definitely will fail.

Cheers,\
Richard

Lorenzo wrote:

> You are absolutely right!
>
> Lorenzo
>
> \-Messaggio originale-
> Da: Esteban Maringolo \[mailto:emaring...@gmail.com\]
> Inviato: domenica 25 luglio 2021 17:54
> A: Any question about pharo is welcome 
> [pharo-users@lists.pharo.org](mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org)
> Oggetto: \[Pharo-users\] Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980
>
> On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:31 AM Tim Mackinnon 
> [tim@testit.works](mailto:tim@testit.works) wrote:
>
> > Isn’t this the wrong question to ask? I’m assuming this is to do with 
> > Smalltalk’s 50th anniversary, and of course we are grateful to those early 
> > pioneers who did lots of work in the field 20-30 years ago but to me that’s 
> > the old history and while it’s interesting to call out, it doesn’t shed 
> > life on the day to day energy we have today - whst keeps Smalltalk alive 
> > and current.
>
> Hi share the view, it's the wrong question, and it pursues that "hero 
> worshipping" culture that is already dead (or at least outdated) since a long 
> time ago.
>
> Additionally, I don't share the "keeping Smalltalk alive" expression, as if 
> dying was its inevitable outcome. I haven't heard "keeping LISP alive" (and I 
> don't call LISP as dead either). It would be self-deceiving to call ourselves 
> mainstream, but that doesn't mean we're doomed somehow.
>
> So in 50 years we should celebrate the half-century, remember the history, 
> look at what we did "wrong", and focus on looking forward, because "the best 
> way to predict the future is to invent it" ;-)
>
> Regards!
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo

[Pharo-users] Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

[horrido . hobbies]

Thanks to everyone for some great suggestions.

I’m coming around to the notion that I asked the wrong question. In the context 
of Smalltalk’s 50th anniversary, the reason I asked the question is because I 
noted that in APL’s 50th anniversary celebration, they gave an award to the one 
individual who was deemed the greatest contributor to APL. So I thought I might 
do the same for Smalltalk.

But now, I’m seeing that was somewhat wrongheaded. Yes, it is the community 
that made Smalltalk what it was, and what it is today. Singling out one 
individual seems unfair, and rather arbitrary.

Maybe I’ll conduct a poll with these suggestions and let the Smalltalk 
community express their support with their votes. That may even provide some 
insight.

[Pharo-users] The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

[horrido . hobbies]

I’m looking for a list of individuals who have contributed greatly to the 
advancement of Smalltalk, post Xerox PARC period (1972-1980). By advancement, I 
don’t only mean on a technical basis but on an educational or public awareness 
basis (this could include books, podcasts, talk circuit, video instruction, 
etc.). Any basis that has made Smalltalk a success in the marketplace 
(including commercialization).

I posted this question on LinkedIn and got one useful response: the late James 
Robertson.

My personal nomination is Kent Beck.

I’m not that familiar with the deep history of Smalltalk, so I’m looking for 
more nominations.

Thanks.

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

[horrido]

You are quite right, which is why I'm retiring as Smalltalk evangelist. There
is simply nothing more I can say about Smalltalk. Over the last 5 years,
I've said everything there is to say and I've said them in every way
imaginable.

My last act as Smalltalk evangelist will be Camp Smalltalk Supreme in 2022.
Then I shall spend the remainder of my days searching for personal
enlightenment.



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> I see that your articles tend to reiterate the same points time and
> again about Smalltalk (historicity, simplicity, agility, proven record),
> which can be fine for a new comer to it, but gets old for the people who
> is actually engaging with reading you.





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

[horrido]

It's true, Smalltalk faces the same dilemma as Linux and Lisp. As a /family/
of languages, portability is a genuine issue.

There's no getting around this dichotomy. You can have either a flexibility
of choice or the tyranny of one standard, but not both.

The decision is a fact of life that we face frequently. You can have either
the flexibility of dynamic typing or the safety of static typing, but not
both. You can have either the natural modelling of the real world due to
state mutation or the mathematical safety of immutability, but not both. You
can have either the portability of a virtual machine or the
close-to-the-metal performance of native code generation, but not both (JIT
compilation notwithstanding).

Life is about choices. There will always be a place for different
technologies. Smalltalk will not always be the ideal choice. That's why
there are five entirely different languages that dominate our industry
(Python, JavaScript, Java, C#, C++).

There is no reason why there can't be a sixth, especially if it can
dramatically improve our productivity and make programming less cognitively
stressful. Surely, that's worth fighting for.

Enough?



Richard O'Keefe wrote
> Here is a challenge:  What is "Smalltalk"?
> VAST, VW, and Pharo are quite different environments.
> To the extent that they share a common syntax (which
> they don't, quite), fine, but porting nontrivial
> code between them is NOT easy.  They certainly have
> very little in common as GUI kits.  All praise and
> thanks to the people who *have* ported stuff.
> 
> 
> On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 01:05, Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >
> wrote:
> 
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/08/10/smalltalks-successor/
>>
>> A bold claim. It'll be interesting to see if anybody challenges me on
>> this.
>>
>>





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Re: [Pharo-users] Editing in Pharo Debugger

[horrido]

I was wondering...

Is there an easy way to update my Pharo 9.0 Development version with updated
versions? I presume Pharo 9.0 is constantly changing.

And how frequently are there updated versions?

Thanks.



horrido wrote
> The latest 9.0 64-bit development version that I downloaded earlier this
> week.
> 
> 
> 
> tbrunz wrote
>> For which version, Richard?
>> 
>> I get the "orange triangle" in Pharo 8.
>> 
>> -t
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] Editing in Pharo Debugger

[horrido]

The latest 9.0 64-bit development version that I downloaded earlier this
week.



tbrunz wrote
> For which version, Richard?
> 
> I get the "orange triangle" in Pharo 8.
> 
> -t
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] New GoFundMe Campaign

[horrido]

Some guy named David Ferrell just donated CAN$6,775 to GoFundMe!!! He must be
one f*cking BIG Smalltalk/Pharo fan!

Along with GemTalk System's CAN$1,311 and a few other donors, I am more than
58% of the way to reaching my funding goal!

This is a huge vote of confidence for JRMPC and my management of it. Please
consider donating.

Now, I realize some of you may be thinking, "Why should I donate to a
*/Canadian/* Pharo programming competition?" But the point is, this
competition shows the world that Smalltalk has "legs." It doesn't matter
what nationality it is. Canada just happens to be a convenient lightning
rod. (Which is also why Camp Smalltalk Supreme will be held in Toronto,
Canada in 2022.)

What other "non-mainstream" programming language enjoys this kind of
attention and support? Surely not Ceylon, Clojure, Crystal, Erlang/Elixir,
F#, Haskell, Haxe, Julia, Kotlin, Lua, Nim, OCaml, and Racket. None of these
languages are used in any national programming competition.

Let's show some solidarity. Thanks.



horrido wrote
> https://www.gofundme.com/f/jrmpc-2?utm_source=customer&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1
> 
> Please give generously!
> 
> Thanks.





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] New GoFundMe Campaign

[horrido]

GemTalk Systems has just donated CAN$1,311. I greatly appreciate their
support.

I wonder if I can count on the other major Smalltalk vendors. Fingers
crossed.



horrido wrote
> https://www.gofundme.com/f/jrmpc-2?utm_source=customer&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1
> 
> Please give generously!
> 
> Thanks.





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] New GoFundMe Campaign

[horrido]

Here's the trailer for JRMPC 2021: https://youtu.be/ZlbRKDPQLf4



horrido wrote
> https://www.gofundme.com/f/jrmpc-2?utm_source=customer&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1
> 
> Please give generously!
> 
> Thanks.





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

[horrido]

I decided to add a new option: "None of the above (add a comment for a new
answer)."

Hopefully, this fixes the issue.



Richard Sargent wrote
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:39 AM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you tried to submit "Vote"
>> without
>> checking off any of the boxes?
>>
> 
> Yes, that is what I am saying. None of those are reasons to NOT use
> Smalltalk, in my opinion.
> 
> 
>> You can always add comment to the post.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Sargent wrote
>> > It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were
>> my
>> > answer.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for participating in the poll.
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

[horrido]

That's a limitation of the WordPress poll. It doesn't really allow you to add
additional answers.

However, what you can do is go to "View Results", click on "Comments" at the
bottom of the poll widget, and add a comment, which can include a new
answer. It's not ideal, but that's all Wordpress allows, I'm afraid.



Richard Sargent wrote
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:39 AM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you tried to submit "Vote"
>> without
>> checking off any of the boxes?
>>
> 
> Yes, that is what I am saying. None of those are reasons to NOT use
> Smalltalk, in my opinion.
> 
> 
>> You can always add comment to the post.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Sargent wrote
>> > It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were
>> my
>> > answer.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for participating in the poll.
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are reasons NOT to use Smalltalk?

[horrido]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you tried to submit "Vote" without
checking off any of the boxes?

You can always add comment to the post.



Richard Sargent wrote
> It wouldn't let me vote without choosing an answer, none of which were my
> answer.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 9:32 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

>> wrote:
> 
>>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/06/19/what-are-reasons-not-to-use-smalltalk/
>>
>>
>> Thanks for participating in the poll.
>>





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

[horrido]

I can come up with one counter-example. I've been on Quora for the past
several years. From time to time, I encounter weird behaviour in Chrome.
When I try to confirm this in Firefox, the issue goes away!

And, of course, my Smalltalk poll is another counter-example.



Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:37 AM Vitor Medina Cruz <

> vitormcruz@

> > wrote:
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> "The browsers are *way* more compatible than Smalltalk systems are."
>>
>> How so?
> 
> You can have a webpage, or even a web application (JS) and it will run
> exactly the same on all major, modern, web-browsers (Chromium, Safari
> and Firefox).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Esteban A. Maringolo





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

[horrido]

It's 2020 and we're still faced with browser compatibility issues?!!

Man, the web is really a piece o' sh*t.



Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> Same for Firefox. I thought the poll was closed when I visited. Now I
> can check it works on Chromium. I wonder how many people tried to
> participate before but has not the proper browser to do it and not even
> a clue about that.
> 
> How could be this pull be made more open and accessible?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Offray
> 
> On 15/05/20 4:35 p. m., Esteban Maringolo wrote:
>> I don't know what is behind the poll system, but it doesn't work in
>> Brave browser. It simply says "Thanks for participating in the poll."
>>
>> I find the questions confusing though.
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:43 PM Richard Kenneth Eng
>> <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>>
>>> Please participate in the poll.





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

[horrido]

I've changed the word "developers" to "people".

In a poll, it's hard to keep the question's answers brief and to the point.
You don't want to be too wordy. So I have to choose my words very, very
carefully so that I can be as concise as possible. I don't know how
successful I am.



Richard Sargent wrote
> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 1:31 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> I've updated the poll question, but since there are already 56 votes, it
>> looks like nobody chose my new addition. Perhaps more of you should vote
>> to
>> change that.
>>
> 
> Communicating with developers is implicit. My point was about
> communicating
> with subject matter experts. i.e. non-developers.
> When our code closely corresponds to the language used by non-developers,
> we improve our chances that future communication remains fruitful and less
> subject to mis-interpretation.





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

[horrido]

I've updated the poll question, but since there are already 56 votes, it
looks like nobody chose my new addition. Perhaps more of you should vote to
change that. 


horrido wrote
> You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!!
> 
> 
> Richard Sargent wrote
>> You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user
>> community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a
>> common terminology.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng <
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>> >
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>>
>>>
>>> Please participate in the poll.
>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

[horrido]

You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!!


Richard Sargent wrote
> You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user
> community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a
> common terminology.
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smalltalk/
>>
>>
>> Please participate in the poll.
>>





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

[horrido]

I didn't ask them that, but I did provide the link to PBE. It was up to them
to learn any way they wish.

You can't mandate people to read PBE. You can lead a horse to water but you
can't make it drink.

PBE is not a good resource if you want to look up classes that you need for
your application. Just as you guys provide a quick reference for Pharo
syntax, you should provide a quick reference for the class library, too.
That would definitely ease the learning curve.

All programming languages rely on a "standard library" (in our case, a
standard class library). No self-respecting language would lack a standard
library reference, whether we're talking about C, C++, C#, Java, Python,
etc.  Even GNU Smalltalk understood this.
<https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/gst-base.html>  



Richard O'Keefe wrote
> I am a little confused here.  I originally learned Smalltalk from the
> coloured books and
> then Inside Smalltalk.  When I got the chance to use Squeak, pretty
> much everything
> from those books carried over well enough for me to hit the ground
> running.  There are
> lots of free e-books about Smalltalk, not least Pharo By Example.  Had
> these people
> who were polled read PBE?
> 
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 04:49, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>
>> This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see
>> "How
>> to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done
>> better,
>> though.
>>
>> You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation
>> up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it
>> easier
>> and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need.
>> Perhaps
>> a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as
>> collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and
>> error
>> classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on.
>> These classes ought not to change much, if at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Mackinnon wrote
>> > Or we teach people to fish…? What’s the point of duplicating everything
>> > that’s already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or
>> ensure
>> > that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience
>> to
>> > do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very
>> > rapidly and we already have enough problems with that.
>> >
>> > I’d be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to
>> > start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some
>> of
>> > which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now
>> themselves).
>> > When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the
>> > student’s actually use it and follow what it says?
>> >
>> > And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the
>> rules?)
>> >
>> > Tim
>> >
>> >> On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman <
>>
>> > btc@
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a
>> >> library reference.
>> >> Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system
>> itself
>> >> as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for
>> >> newcomers.
>> >>
>> >> I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image,
>> >> but I couldn't put my hands on it right now.
>> >> @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers
>> >> something more familiar to work with.
>> >>
>> >> cheers -ben
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> >  <mailto:
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> > >> wrote:
>> >> https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/
>> >>
>> <https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/>;
>> >>
>> >> FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference
>> documentation
>> >> for the class library as the major obstacle to learning
>> Smalltalk/Pharo.
>> >>
>> >> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

[horrido]

Exactly! The JRMPC participants were more used to looking things up quickly
and easily, rather than exploring. It's not easy to teach people how to
explore a system for needed information, and more importantly, it's a
time-consuming process. People are impatient.

Smalltalk is not for impatient people, and that's the major problem.



Ben Coman wrote
> Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a
> library
> reference.
> Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself
> as
> that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for
> newcomers.
> 
> I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but
> I couldn't put my hands on it right now.
> @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers
> something more familiar to work with.
> 
> cheers -ben
> 
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >
> wrote:
> 
>> https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/
>>
>> FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation
>> for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
>>
>> Richard
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

[horrido]

This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see "How
to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better,
though.

You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation
up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it easier
and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps
a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as
collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error
classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on.
These classes ought not to change much, if at all.



Tim Mackinnon wrote
> Or we teach people to fish…? What’s the point of duplicating everything
> that’s already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure
> that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to
> do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very
> rapidly and we already have enough problems with that.
> 
> I’d be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to
> start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of
> which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves).
> When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the
> student’s actually use it and follow what it says?
> 
> And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?)
> 
> Tim
> 
>> On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman <

> btc@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a
>> library reference.
>> Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself
>> as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for
>> newcomers.
>> 
>> I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image,
>> but I couldn't put my hands on it right now.
>> @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers
>> something more familiar to work with.
>> 
>> cheers -ben
>> 
>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

>   horrido.hobbies@

> >> wrote:
>> https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/
>> ;
>>  
>> 
>> FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation
>> for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo.
>> 
>> Richard





--
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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] We have our winners!

[horrido]

As promised, here are the team mind submissions for the three winners...

First Prize (WCI1):
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nEYm84hLGIJYtV9OGbsCkVDuASNAFjii

Second Prize (Team Dijkstra):
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-RZ-uo1Dt4dIgdBCKrlbZywbcx3vPRYQ

Third Prize (Bickle Blatwoon):
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12svm4TvcWnhMdXc2roYrE4q4zO-KXldU

The "API" for the competition is:

- #determineDirectionForRobot:
- #recoverOn:
- #setupOn:

Only the first one is mandatory.

Richard



--
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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Battlesnake vs JRMPC

[horrido]

Thank you very much for the feedback. I've updated the article accordingly.
Hope you find it satisfactory.

Richard



--
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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Round 4 Results Are In

[horrido]

tbrunz wrote
> The competition is certainly getting more interesting and challenging.
> 
> I found that if I started from your website to reach the videos, they're a
> lot more understandable, as the background info needed to comprehend what
> we're seeing is spelled out more completely there.
> 
> On the whole, it's great to see a competition like this being supported
> and
> implemented!  Hopefully it will bring in more developers.  And inspire
> more
> competitions, too.

Thanks! Much appreciated!

Yes, that was my goal, to inspire people to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a shot.

At this point, I'd like to present some comments from the participating
teams. Many of them found learning Pharo difficult, even though I presented
what I thought were pretty good learning resources (see https://jrmpc.ca/).
Did I leave out anything that would've been more helpful?

One team told me that they found the Pharo class library intractable due to
lack of documentation. I imagine this opinion was shared by other teams, as
well.

I think they were looking for something along the lines of this  GNU
Smalltalk Library Reference
  , a more
traditional style of documentation.

Frankly, I'm utterly amazed that the GNU Smalltalk people were able to
create this reference (kudos!), and I wish something similar existed for
Pharo (and Squeak and Dolphin).

In hindsight, perhaps I should've given them this library reference, but I
think it would've confused them because I'm sure there are
incompatibilities.



> Any chance that the source code for one or more of the competitors will
> become available after the competition has concluded?

Certainly, I can do that. I'll at least post the three winning team minds.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Richard



--
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Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Round 3 Results Are In

[horrido]

Your critique is perfectly valid; I have no problem with it. Ben nicely
expanded on my point. Like I said, if I wanted to serve your purpose, then
yes, I'd make your video. Your critique would be very helpful.

This video didn't need a soundtrack either, but adding it made the video
immeasurably better:  Roassal3 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2rLr7Z1b8Y> 
. Ditto for this video:  We Are Smalltalk <https://youtu.be/pB0iI6ksW30>  .

This video has utter silence and it simply does not work for me:  Virtual
Reality Live at Thales with Pharo
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4nNtN7XBi8>  .

The purpose of my video is to drum up excitement for JRMPC. I'm trying to
make JRMPC a special "event." I'm trying to make JRMPC look like a cool
contest. I hope people will be drawn into exploring this event further and
be exposed to Smalltalk. Perhaps then they'll give Smalltalk a try.

If they know nothing about Smalltalk, showing them the Pharo IDE in action
will have very little meaning. That's why I didn't do it. It didn't fit my
purpose.

I could be wrong, but I think a lot of people think this competition is
pretty cool. Mission accomplished.



Richard O'Keefe wrote
> There doesn't need to *be* a soundtrack.  Everyone can handle silence,
> no?  What purpose *does* the current video serve?
> 
> On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 at 07:42, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>
>> My video serves one purpose; your video serves another. If I wanted to
>> serve
>> your purpose, then yes, I'd make your video.
>>
>> As to the sound track, the truth is, you can't choose one that appeals to
>> everyone. Musical tastes vary. I have no doubt that regardless of my
>> choice,
>> somebody will always have an issue with it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard O'Keefe wrote
>> > This is meant to be constructive, but won't seem that way at first.
>> >
>> > (1) The sound track very nearly drove me away in the first few seconds.
>> > I'm deadly serious about that.  I'm not on the spectrum, but my elder
>> > daughter is, and sensory sensitivities are very common amongst ASD
>> > people.  I'm rather sensitive to noise myself.  Now if the sound track
>> > were *relevant* to the message, I'd put up with it, but I can't for the
>> > life of me see any connection between the sound track banging away
>> > and what's happening on the screen.
>> >
>> > (2) Above all, it was a *missed opportunity*.  Here was the chance to
>> > add a narration telling us what we are seeing and what it all *means*.
>> > Something not unlike Code Bullet, maybe?
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSW-5m8lRMs
>> >
>> > (3) I don't give a tinker's curse for the score.  It's just a number
>> > without
>> > any context.  The scores for *all* the teams might be more interesting.
>> > The numbers that really matter are TIME, EFFORT, and SIZE.  How
>> > long did it take each team?  How much code did they end up with?  How
>> > much were they able to re-use?  How many false starts had to be thrown
>> > away?
>> >
>> > (4) The other missed opportunity was the chance to show some of the
>> > Pharo IDE in action.  Click on a cell, bring up the halo, explore the
>> > data structure, show some code, jump around in it.
>> >
>> > As it is, this clip shows me
>> >  - unknown code
>> >  - solving an unfamiliar problem
>> >  - written by people I know nothing about
>> >  - using unknown tools
>> >  - with no evidence that Smalltalk helped in any way.
>> >
>> > If I were a Blub programmer, I'd probably ignore this
>> > completely.  At best, I'd look for the problem specification,
>> > then say "who cares, I can do that easily in Blub".
>> >
>> > If you want to show that Smalltalk is the best thing since
>> > sliced cheese, you have to show that *Smalltalk* is relevant
>> > in some way.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 at 03:53, Richard Kenneth Eng
>> > <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNyu-3Y2arg
>> >>
>> >> This time, the teams must deal with Jump cells, Warp cells, and Death
>> >> cells. If you land on a Death cell, you die and the simulation
>> >> terminates.
>> >>
>> >> Next week is the most exciting round yet. Multiple teams will be
>> >> competing on the same board! This will look so damn cool on YouTube.
>> >>
>> >> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Round 3 Results Are In

[horrido]

My video serves one purpose; your video serves another. If I wanted to serve
your purpose, then yes, I'd make your video.

As to the sound track, the truth is, you can't choose one that appeals to
everyone. Musical tastes vary. I have no doubt that regardless of my choice,
somebody will always have an issue with it.



Richard O'Keefe wrote
> This is meant to be constructive, but won't seem that way at first.
> 
> (1) The sound track very nearly drove me away in the first few seconds.
> I'm deadly serious about that.  I'm not on the spectrum, but my elder
> daughter is, and sensory sensitivities are very common amongst ASD
> people.  I'm rather sensitive to noise myself.  Now if the sound track
> were *relevant* to the message, I'd put up with it, but I can't for the
> life of me see any connection between the sound track banging away
> and what's happening on the screen.
> 
> (2) Above all, it was a *missed opportunity*.  Here was the chance to
> add a narration telling us what we are seeing and what it all *means*.
> Something not unlike Code Bullet, maybe?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSW-5m8lRMs
> 
> (3) I don't give a tinker's curse for the score.  It's just a number
> without
> any context.  The scores for *all* the teams might be more interesting.
> The numbers that really matter are TIME, EFFORT, and SIZE.  How
> long did it take each team?  How much code did they end up with?  How
> much were they able to re-use?  How many false starts had to be thrown
> away?
> 
> (4) The other missed opportunity was the chance to show some of the
> Pharo IDE in action.  Click on a cell, bring up the halo, explore the
> data structure, show some code, jump around in it.
> 
> As it is, this clip shows me
>  - unknown code
>  - solving an unfamiliar problem
>  - written by people I know nothing about
>  - using unknown tools
>  - with no evidence that Smalltalk helped in any way.
> 
> If I were a Blub programmer, I'd probably ignore this
> completely.  At best, I'd look for the problem specification,
> then say "who cares, I can do that easily in Blub".
> 
> If you want to show that Smalltalk is the best thing since
> sliced cheese, you have to show that *Smalltalk* is relevant
> in some way.
> 
> 
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 at 03:53, Richard Kenneth Eng
> <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNyu-3Y2arg
>>
>> This time, the teams must deal with Jump cells, Warp cells, and Death
>> cells. If you land on a Death cell, you die and the simulation
>> terminates.
>>
>> Next week is the most exciting round yet. Multiple teams will be
>> competing on the same board! This will look so damn cool on YouTube.
>>
>> Richard





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

[horrido]

I shall endeavour to make my posts more meaningful, starting with [ANN]. My
bad.



Guillermo Polito wrote
> Hi Ben,
> 
>> El 9 feb 2020, a las 21:01, Ben Coman <

> btc@

> > escribió:
>> 
>> > This list is for people to *ask* questions about Pharo. Not to diffuse
>> any kind of propaganda (pharo related or not).
>> 
>> This list is not just for asking questions.  There are plenty of [ANN]
>> posts advertising new libraries 
>> and blogs articles.  Following completion of the competition, the MIT
>> licensed code repository will be announced here. 
>> Hopefully it may provide an engaging exercise for Pharo teachers to their
>> with their students.
> 
> I know, and I don’t mind announcements from time to time.
> But announcements are generally marked with [ANN], and are kind of self
> explanatory.
> The mail Richard sent is, and I’m sorry to be harsh, spam.
> 
>> > I have the feeling this list has been lately flooded with such
>> off-topic messages.
>> 
>> Unfortunately the original post was quite bare and failed to show how it
>> was Pharo-topical.
>> So I can understand how it triggered you.  I hope the additional
>> background info provided here alleviates some of your concern about it.
> 
> Maybe. Maybe Richard could work his emails a bit more?
> 
> I’ll quote his original email:
> 
>> > El 8 feb 2020, a las 19:12, Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

>   horrido.hobbies@

> >> escribió:
>> >
>> > Round 1 — #1 Leading Team: https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ
>> ;
>> >
>> > I'm actually quite amazed by their effort. They surpassed my
>> expectations.
>> >
>> > At the risk of sounding immodest, I think this is a terrific way to
>> promote Smalltalk (Pharo). I think the video is an absolute blast.
>> >
>> > Richard
> 
> I particularly, who hasn’t followed the competition, am completely lost
> with this email.
> With the risk of sounding harsh, again, but trying to give some feedback
> Richard can work on:
> - The subject does not imply it is an announcement, nor what the results
> are related to or how they got there
> - For those that are not following this competition: what is this round 1?
> Are there many of them? What is this about? are there many teams?
> - There is no single link to the competition website, what this is about,
> whoever contributed to it...
> - Clicking on the link gives a video with a title that is as ambiguous as
> this email :(
> - I check the description of the video: what is there in the video? not
> clear. How will it appear in a youtube search in the future?
>At least it seems there are links to the website...
>Yet, Really? do I have to watch the video before I can know if this is
> interesting for me or not? :P
> 
> Happily these points could be addressed in the future.
> 
>> So with this additional perspective, may one post a week be allowed to
>> share the progress of the competition?
> 
> Can the posts have better quality? :/
> 
> Still, I’d feel more confortable with an alternative, such as using
> discord.
> What about having a dedicated #jmrpc channel on discord where people could
> ask questions too?
> 
> What about twitter? I havent seen this on twitter. Is it there?
> 
> Now, I already spent too much on this :)
> Time to get back to something productive.
> 
> Cheers,
> Guille





--
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Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

[horrido]

Thanks, Ben.

> Although the "smalltalk" title of the video is not ideal, that was the
> name of the competition when it was originally going to use VisualWorks,
> and so it carried over.

Not only that, but if you look at jrmpc.ca, it uses the word "Smalltalk" all
over the place. The sponsors include LabWare (who doesn't use Pharo),
Simberon (who doesn't use Pharo), and TSUG (Toronto *Smalltalk* User Group).
It's "Smalltalk" everywhere! And that's fine because Pharo is a Smalltalk.



Ben Coman wrote
> Hi Guille,
> 
> Full disclosure, I've spent the past 6 months using my discretionary hobby
> time
> programming the infrastructure for this competition using Pharo, so my
> viewpoint may be biased.
> 
> On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 at 03:25, Guillermo Polito <

> guillermopolito@

> >
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>> I’d like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic
> messages in the future.
>>
>> This list is for people to *ask* questions about Pharo. Not to diffuse
> any kind of propaganda (pharo related or not).
> 
> This list is not just for asking questions.  There are plenty of [ANN]
> posts advertising new libraries
> and blogs articles.  Following completion of the competition, the MIT
> licensed code repository will be announced here.
> Hopefully it may provide an engaging exercise for Pharo teachers to their
> with their students.
> 
> 
>> I have the feeling this list has been lately flooded with such off-topic
> messages.
> 
> Unfortunately the original post was quite bare and failed to show how it
> was Pharo-topical.
> So I can understand how it triggered you.  I hope the additional
> background
> info provided here alleviates some of your concern about it.
> 
> 
>> I know you don’t agree, but I invite you to read here the **purpose** of
> this list, just for respect to people subscribed to it:
>>https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org
> 
> The purpose I see there seems fairly generic... "This is the general
> mailing list for users of Pharo."
> 
> The competition is programmed in Pharo and Pharo is promoted later in the
> video with screens like...
> 
> [image: image.png]
> [image: image.png]
> 
> But that promotion is not the main thing.  The main thing is simply that
> this is-A competition programmed using Pharo,
> and as such this list seems reasonable a reasonable place discuss it.
> Although the "smalltalk" title of the video is not ideal,
> that was the name of the competition when it was originally going to use
> VisualWorks, and so it carried over.
> 
> A final thing to consider is how welcomed the dozens of competing students
> may feel if they are watching this list
> and see their Pharo based competition spurned by the community.
> 
> So with this additional perspective, may one post a week be allowed to
> share the progress of the competition?
> 
> cheers -ben
> 
> 
>> El 8 feb 2020, a las 19:12, Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >
> escribió:
>>
>> Round 1 — #1 Leading Team: https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ
>>
>> I'm actually quite amazed by their effort. They surpassed my
>> expectations.
>>
>> At the risk of sounding immodest, I think this is a terrific way to
> promote Smalltalk (Pharo). I think the video is an absolute blast.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
> 
> 
> image.png (28K)
> ;
> image.png (91K)
> ;





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

[horrido]

Now, who's telling lies?

I have never "demanded" money for the competition. I've asked for donations
through Kickstarter and GoFundMe. I didn't demand anything from LabWare;
they were so impressed with my campaign, they offered to support it. Your
characterization of me is inaccurate and unfair and downright insulting. I
really don't understand where your vitriol is coming from.

I have never "blamed" anybody for not donating. People are free to donate or
not; I understand that and it's fine.

Your characterization of my social media posts as "void articles" is also
very insulting. As I said in another post, you don't seem to understand what
marketing is all about. To you, anything that isn't technical information
nor source code is void and vacuous.

I don't "reject" feedback. I listen to it and if it makes sense, I act on
it. Do all your feedback make sense? If I don't believe it makes sense, am I
"rejecting" it? You seem to think that I should accept your feedback without
question. Why should I? Who are you?

You say I've been "spitting on every other programming language." It's fair
game to compare Smalltalk with other languages. Am I "spitting" when I point
out the weaknesses of other languages? Why are those languages off limits?

Your use of loaded terms like "messianic" and "demand" and "blame" and
"reject" shows that you are strongly biased against me. I don't know what I
did to deserve your disdain, but I won't stand for it. I have my dignity and
my grace. You, on the other hand, have no honour.

And just for the record, many people appreciate my effort and support it.
Does it please everybody? Of course not, nor should it. So if some of you
are impatient with me, what am I supposed to do with that?



Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
> so 8. 2. 2020 v 23:58 odesílatel Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <

> pharo-users@.pharo

>> napsal:
> 
>> I guess I have to re-ask again since nobody answered my question from
>> this week...
>>
>> Where can we post Pharo
>> questions/remarks/thoughts/you-might-want-to-have-a-look-at-this-cool-idea/whatever
>>
>> (or anything that could be of any interest to Pharoers) ?
>>
>> MAYBE we need another list...
>>
>> This is getting ridiculous!  The guy spends energy, time, effort and is
>> able to gather 13K in prizes and puts Pharo to the forefront with this
>> cool contest in schools, makes a lot of youngsters learn & use Pharo for
>> their projects, puts up a website, makes videos, writes blog posts,
>> PROMOTES Pharo and he gets slapped for posting here ?!?!  WTF ???
>>
> 
> You need to see the whole story. This guy with a messianic syndrome
> started
> his aggressive campaign by spitting on every other programming language
> and
> he is constantly spamming the social media by void articles that are often
> full of lies while showing whole community in a very bad light of fanatic
> fools. He (alone) came with the idea of the competition and started to
> demand money for it. Then he started to blame anyone who didn't want to
> provide money to him. He is constantly rejecting any critique and feedback
> so do not be surprised that otherwise very friendly people are losing
> their patience.
> 
> -- Pavel
> 
> 
>>
>> Where should he post?  Where should I post ?
>>
>> On 2020-02-08 17:35, Guillermo Polito wrote:
>> > Hi Richard,
>> >
>> > I’d like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic
>> > messages in the future.
>> >
>> --
>> -
>> Benoît St-Jean
>> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
>> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
>> Pinterest: benoitstjean
>> Instagram: Chef_Benito
>> IRC: lamneth
>> GitHub: bstjean
>> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
>> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
>>
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

[horrido]

Exaggeration is not a lie, especially in the context of /marketing/. We've
all seen marketing campaigns on television, in social media and magazines.
They all contain exaggerations and half-truths. You don't seem to understand
what marketing is all about.



Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
> so 8. 2. 2020 v 23:33 odesílatel horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > napsal:
> 
>> So this forum is only for Pharo newcomers who have questions? Seems
>> rather
>> limiting.
>>
>> When I join other language forums, I look for information about the
>> language
>> I'm investigating as a newcomer. This can include the language's
>> capabilities, limitations, real-world usage, new tools, philosophical
>> basis,
>> and so on. General information across a broad spectrum of topics.
>>
>> And, yes, even trivia and factoids that I might find interesting. I
>> appreciate that you don't find this interesting, but other forum visitors
>> may.
>>
>> If the Pharo users forum wants to, it could do something as draconian as
>> StackOverflow does: put a tight leash on submitted questions and boot out
>> everybody who doesn't comply. This is one reason I don't go to
>> StackOverflow
>> very often — they aren't welcoming to people who just want to learn
>> general
>> things.
>>
>> I've told my readers that the Pharo users forum is welcoming. Please
>> don't
>> make a liar out of me.
>>
> 
> We do not need to make a liar out of you. See your old e-mails:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares?
> I'mtrying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I
> haveto exaggerate, I will do so.Has everybody heard of Smalltalk? Of
> course
> not. And it doesn't matter. I'mtaking /literary licence/. As a writer and
> a
> marketer, I am allowed to dothis.*
> 
> -- Pavel
> 
> Guillermo Polito wrote
>> > Hi Richard,
>> >
>> > I’d like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic
>> > messages in the future.
>> >
>> > This list is for people to *ask* questions about Pharo. Not to diffuse
>> any
>> > kind of propaganda (pharo related or not).
>> > You’re not asking a question about Pharo, nor answering a question
>> about
>> > Pharo.
>> > So I personally find all these emails off-topic and uninteresting.
>> >
>> > I have the feeling this list has been lately flooded with such
>> off-topic
>> > messages.
>> > And this only chases off this list people really interested about the
>> main
>> > topic of the list (like me).
>> >
>> > Maybe this shows this competition / PR campaign you’re running needs
>> > another channel?
>> > I know you don’t agree, but I invite you to read here the **purpose**
>> of
>> > this list, just for respect to people subscribed to it:
>> >https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org
>> > <
>> https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org>;
>> >
>> > Thanks for your comprehension,
>> > Guille
>> >
>> >> El 8 feb 2020, a las 19:12, Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> > > escribió:
>> >>
>> >> Round 1 — #1 Leading Team: https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ
>> >> <https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ>;
>> >>
>> >> I'm actually quite amazed by their effort. They surpassed my
>> >> expectations.
>> >>
>> >> At the risk of sounding immodest, I think this is a terrific way to
>> >> promote Smalltalk (Pharo). I think the video is an absolute blast.
>> >>
>> >> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

[horrido]

Self-promotion??? I generally dislike inserting myself personally into
Smalltalk advocacy. My campaign is all about Smalltalk; I'm just the
vehicle.

If you're referring to my comment "at the risk of sounding immodest," I am
rightfully proud of my video. It does a damn good job of promoting Pharo.
Beyond that, however, I don't ever want this campaign to be about me.

So what self-promotion are you referring to?

As for "content-free," the video is good content, at least, from the
perspective of marketing. Of course, you wouldn't think it was valid content
if you don't believe in marketing Pharo, a sentiment that I think is
unfortunately shared by many in this forum.



Pierce Ng-3 wrote
> On Sat, Feb 08, 2020 at 05:50:18PM -0500, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users
> wrote:
>> MAYBE we need another list...
> 
> Maybe Richard just needs to adjust the style of his mails...
> 
>> This is getting ridiculous!  The guy spends energy, time, effort and is
>> able
>> to gather 13K in prizes and puts Pharo to the forefront with this cool
>> contest in schools, makes a lot of youngsters learn & use Pharo for their
>> projects, puts up a website, makes videos, writes blog posts, PROMOTES
>> Pharo
>> and he gets slapped for posting here ?!?!  WTF ???
> 
> Like if the subject of Richard's mail is "Pharo success story part 3:
> blah blah" and his opening paragraph is descriptive, similar to what you
> wrote above, I'd read the mail and watch the video. As it is, his mail
> is content-free and comes across purely as self-promotion.
> 
> Pierce





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

[horrido]

So this forum is only for Pharo newcomers who have questions? Seems rather
limiting.

When I join other language forums, I look for information about the language
I'm investigating as a newcomer. This can include the language's
capabilities, limitations, real-world usage, new tools, philosophical basis,
and so on. General information across a broad spectrum of topics.

And, yes, even trivia and factoids that I might find interesting. I
appreciate that you don't find this interesting, but other forum visitors
may.

If the Pharo users forum wants to, it could do something as draconian as
StackOverflow does: put a tight leash on submitted questions and boot out
everybody who doesn't comply. This is one reason I don't go to StackOverflow
very often — they aren't welcoming to people who just want to learn general
things.

I've told my readers that the Pharo users forum is welcoming. Please don't
make a liar out of me.



Guillermo Polito wrote
> Hi Richard,
> 
> I’d like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic
> messages in the future.
> 
> This list is for people to *ask* questions about Pharo. Not to diffuse any
> kind of propaganda (pharo related or not).
> You’re not asking a question about Pharo, nor answering a question about
> Pharo.
> So I personally find all these emails off-topic and uninteresting.
> 
> I have the feeling this list has been lately flooded with such off-topic
> messages.
> And this only chases off this list people really interested about the main
> topic of the list (like me).
> 
> Maybe this shows this competition / PR campaign you’re running needs
> another channel?
> I know you don’t agree, but I invite you to read here the **purpose** of
> this list, just for respect to people subscribed to it:
>https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org
> ;
> 
> Thanks for your comprehension,
> Guille
> 
>> El 8 feb 2020, a las 19:12, Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > escribió:
>> 
>> Round 1 — #1 Leading Team: https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ
>> ;
>> 
>> I'm actually quite amazed by their effort. They surpassed my
>> expectations.
>> 
>> At the risk of sounding immodest, I think this is a terrific way to
>> promote Smalltalk (Pharo). I think the video is an absolute blast.
>> 
>> Richard





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

I agree completely. Pharo is a Smalltalk, but it need not be constrained by
Smalltalk-80. Pharo is completely free to chart its own course. As far as I
can tell, Nik Boyd's Hoot Smalltalk is doing the same thing.

This is purely a PR matter. Pharo's reputation doesn't want to be tarred
with Smalltalk's feathers. So the philosophy is, sever all ties with
Smalltalk's legacy.

Well, that's one approach. Here's another: change the public's perception of
Smalltalk. Take the bull by the horns. That's the total premise of my
five-year PR campaign.

Smalltalk's legacy is not an albatross. It can be a source of great power
for publicity. I intend to prove that.



Ben Coman wrote
> I am of the side of this argument that Pharo is a kind of Smalltalk,
> but the group that forked Squeak to create Pharo did so with the
> express intention of being separate-from-Smalltalk
> and we should respect that intention.  Indeed here we can see three
> reasons why they feel the need to advertise that separation...
> 
> On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 at 21:45, TedVanGaalen <

> tedvga@

> > wrote:
>>
>> make improvement/changes only in such
>> a way that anything written before will
>> run without any modification
> 
> You are constraining what Pharo can be.
> 
> 
>> Downward compatibility prevents people
>> from have tediously edit and test their packages
>> again and again each time some have
>> the "brilliant" idea to deprecate stuff.
> 
> You are constraining what Pharo can be.
> 
> 
>> If you want to implement newer core like things
>> co-existence with previous is preferable.
>> Do at the very least not alter the core/system classes.
> 
> You are constraining what Pharo can be.
> 
> 
> The aim of the advertised statement that Pharo-is-not-Smalltalk is to
> avoid you "later" being surprised if it differs from ST-80.
> A marketing strategy analogous to a "fail early" programming paradigm,
> and avoid such arguments that try to shackle Pharo.
> 
> In practice, its probably many years before Pharo is any more
> incompatible with Smalltalk than the incompatibilities between
> existing Smalltalks.
> But Smalltalk-backward-compatibility should not be one of your
> tick-boxes to choose Pharo.
> 
> cheers -ben





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

> The audience for the Smalltalk-inspired campaign is the other 99% of
programmers who would never get past: "Smalltalk = 1980 = dead = not worth
checking out".

Never? This is what I've been trying to overcome for the past 5 years with
hundreds of blogs.

> Have already made up their mind and will not likely be convinced by a
> soundbite anyway

Agreed. However, hundreds of blogs over 5 years is much more than a
"soundbite."

I agree that Pharo's current "marketing" strategy is working, if by working
you mean slow but steady growth. It may never become as "popular" as, say,
Kotlin or Rust.

I have a greater ambition for Smalltalk: to restore its popularity from 25
years ago. Or even from just 7 years ago  when it was #37 at TIOBE

 
. (Sadly, today it's not even in the Top 50.)

I *believe* Smalltalk can have a bright future. Unfortunately, few people
share this sentiment.

https://youtu.be/BS_gLFOrjMw



Sean P. DeNigris wrote
>> pharo is not smalltalk 
>> TedVanGaalen wrote
>>> Pharo IS Smalltalk, whether you like it or not.
> 
> An ancient parable goes...
> 
>> A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had
>> been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and
>> form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch,
>> of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it
>> they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed
>> on the trunk, said "This being is like a thick snake". For another one
>> whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another
>> person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like
>> a
>> tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the
>> elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope.
>> The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard,
>> smooth
>> and like a spear.
> 
> And from its Wikipedia article:
> 
>> In some versions, they stop talking, start listening and collaborate to
>> "see" the full elephant.
> 
> TL;DR 
> 
> Two parts of the same elephant:
> 1. Pharo is Smalltalk (in the sense that St-72, 76, and 80 are)
> 2. Pharo is not Smalltalk (in the sense that most non-Smalltalkers think
> that "Smalltalk" = St-80, so they would be mislead and unnecessary turned
> off by #1)
> 
> The *marketing* decision's logic is something like the following: Given
> that
> both of these soundbites are equally (un)true, which one is more likely to
> bring people to Pharo?
> 
> |-|-Audience|
> |--Sound Byte--|--Familiar w ST--|--Unfamiliar--|
> |
> |--Pharo = ST---|-N/A*---| Ew! Last century!|
> |-Pharo ~= ST--|-N/A*---| Hmm, interesting...--|
> * Have already made up their mind and will not likely be convinced by a
> soundbite anyway
> 
> While one can certainly understand disagreeing with the possible
> effectiveness of the strategy, these threads usually IMHO have the feel of
> a
> holy war from the camp touching the "Pharo = ST" part of the elephant. 
> 
> In the unlikely event that anyone is still reading this, I'll paste my
> longer explanation from a similar 2015 thread [1]
> 
> Sean P. DeNigris wrote
>> The best way to understand the rationale for Pharo's marketing decision
>> is
>> to read one of the many long threads about it on the Pharo lists. I doubt
>> rehashing it will provide new value.
>> 
>> The issue boils down to the fact that the term Smalltalk has been
>> overloaded. The original meaning was prototype Dynabook software that was
>> used to bootstrap its replacement every 4 years. This true definition, by
>> design, leaves plenty of room for innovation. Unfortunately, when
>> Smalltalk-80 was released to the world, that became what people mean when
>> they use the word Smalltalk. Obviously, people already familiar with
>> Smalltalk are going to look at Pharo and go, "oh look, it's Smalltalk"*.
>> But that is not the target market. The audience for the
>> Smalltalk-inspired
>> campaign is the other 99% of programmers who would never get past:
>> "Smalltalk = 1980 = dead = not worth checking out".
>> 
>> Anyway, I'd rather get back to hacking than waste more time in these IMHO
>> mostly-pointless debates. In fact, I disagree that unpopularity is a
>> problem at all. I would say that our biggest advantage is not being
>> popular. I'll take a small community of true-believers over a mob of
>> trend
>> followers any day.
>> 
>> * Although they'd probably base that opinion on the syntax, which is the
>> least important part of Smalltalk (the live environment being first, and
>> libraries second). In fact, if Ruby had a live, dynamic,
>> turtles-all-the-way-down environment, with a Morphic-like uniform, live
>> interface, and Smalltalk-li

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

> You can evangelize what you want but I would prefer if you have to
evangelize, keep it to smalltalk and do not refer to pharo, not even with
screenshots.

Whoa! You want me to remove all references to Pharo in my
smalltalk.tech.blog???

That would eliminate most of the current blog posts. It would hollow out the
Resources page. And like I intimated before, it would utterly destroy my
JRMPC competition.

There would be no point in evangelizing Smalltalk anymore. Your position is
completely unreasonable. I'll go further and say it's insane. I hope most
Pharoers are not so extreme.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

> The whole reason Pharo exists is to break free from the constraints of
other people's ideas of what Smalltalk is and should remain to be.

Pharo is no more constrained by Smalltalk's legacy than GNU Smalltalk (which
eschews the traditional IDE) and Hoot Smalltalk (a JVM-based Smalltalk with
unique enhancements) and Dolphin Smalltalk (which dares to be Windows-only)
are.

Most Smalltalks have their own special enhancements thus making them less
and less compatible with "standard" Smalltalk.

So I see no reason to worry about Pharo being shackled. I always advertise
Pharo as "a modern variant of Smalltalk created in 2008" which should cement
the idea that Pharo is relevant today. I always compare Pharo to Clojure (a
modern variant of LISP) and Elixir (a modern variant of Erlang).

Pharo is free to make great strides forward. As long as its "core" remains
Smalltalk, Pharo will always be a Smalltalk. No matter how much Pharo
evolves, it will never give up its core, which includes:

1. Alan Kay's pure and simple object-oriented conception.

2. The core syntax which is message-based and consists of three types of
messages.

3. The live coding environment.

4. Reflectivity and a powerful metaprogramming capability.

I can't imagine a future where Pharo wouldn't have these defining qualities.
Therefore, Pharo belongs in the Smalltalk family.

And, btw, Sven, you are absolutely correct: Pharo is not Smalltalk. Because
Smalltalk is not one language but a family of languages. No one thing can be
a family.

However, Pharo is a Smalltalk. And this is undeniable.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

As I suggested earlier, my evangelism has been rather polarizing. There are a
lot of people like yourself who don't appreciate my efforts. There a lot of
people who do.

For example, when I attended the FAST conference in Salta, many people
(Leandro Caniglia, Carlos Ferro, etc.) expressed their appreciation. Another
example, members of TSUG (Bob Nemec, Norman Branitsky, Dave Mason, etc.)
appreciate my efforts. I wonder, if I attended an ESUG conference, might I
find supporters, as well?

At Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Quora, Medium, etc., there are many fans of
my evangelism. Amazingly, there are supporters on this forum, too!

So how much weight should I give to your opinion? Should I now stop on your
say so? Make a convincing case and I shall drop everything. I shall
terminate JRMPC immediately and return all the money to LabWare (thereby
disappointing over 120 participating students). I shall delete 
smalltalk.tech.blog <https://smalltalk.tech.blog/>  . I shall remove all my
existing blogs and videos about Smalltalk from Medium and YouTube. Perhaps
this will reverse the damage.

I await your case...



NorbertHartl wrote
>> Am 05.02.2020 um 20:41 schrieb horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >:
>> 
>>> It is your initiative, you should know, nobody asked you to do it
>> 
>> Well, that's a peculiar attitude. There are many, many programming
>> language
>> evangelists and I don't think anybody "asked" them to do it. They do it
>> for
>> the love of the language.
>> 
>> I hear what you're saying, and I understand fully. I just don't agree
>> with
>> it entirely.
> 
> I doubt that.
>> 
>> I think it's short-sighted. Smalltalk has long been criticized for being
>> a
>> secluded island, and now you want to do the same for Pharo? Even as I try
>> to
>> build bridges to the island?
> 
> Now, you just don't understand. We are being criticized for leaving the
> island. From where you stand it looks that Smalltalk would still exist and
> we are making an island in the sea of nothing.
>> 
>> You could ban everybody from this forum who aren't focussed 100% on Pharo
>> and you'd have a much smaller community. You could ban everybody who is a
>> Smalltalker. The result is a much more tightly focussed forum, clean and
>> free from distractions. Fine. But what is the long-term cost?
>> 
> You don't understand. We don't usually ban people but we should. And I
> don't care about the size of the community because the part of the
> community that does not focus on pharo is useless to us. Is that so hard
> to get?
> 
>> Smalltalk evangelism would come to an end. Why? Because frankly nobody is
>> interested in the other Smalltalks. Pharo is where all the action is.
>> 
> Yes, and it is for a reason. It is because we did a hard and good job the
> last 12 years. You just need to understand that this Smalltalk thing does
> not exist if it ever has. 
> 
>> And without Smalltalk evangelism, I don't see a path for Pharo becoming
>> more
>> than a niche language. Pharo doesn't show up an *any* language popularity
>> index. At least Clojure, Erlang/Elixir, and Haskell are in the top 30 in
>> several places.
>> 
> And what kind of metric is that? And why the hell you think that Smalltalk
> evangelising can change that? I cannot imagine a single reason that makes
> that assumption hold.
> 
>> At Indeed, there are 18 job postings in the United States that mention
>> Smalltalk, and none for Pharo. Even Clojure has 404, Erlang has 274, and
>> Haskell has 519, pathetic though these numbers are.
>> 
> We are working on it. And if we do not succeed so be it. The one thing I'm
> sure is that you are not helping.
> 
>> Yes, I also understand that there are many Pharoers who don't care about
>> remaining niche. That's a tragedy.
>> 
> You really have to understand that IT changed since you've been active.
> Software is omnipresent today meaning it enters all areas of live. And
> most of these areas you can call a niche. Being mainstream does not make
> things better!
> 
>> I would rather not have wasted the last five years of my life.
>> 
> I'm sorry for you but you did. And in my opinion you should stop that
> because you do more harm than good. I know this just confirms you in
> ongoing but so be it.
> 
> Norbert
> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

I've never posted to /r/smalltalk. There's no point in preaching to the
choir.

I posted to /r/programming and everybody there tried to lynch me.



Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
> FWIW I am one of the mods of /r/smalltalk - happy to have material
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 5, 2020, at 13:12, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Reddit is a strange bird. I have found more resistance to Smalltalk there
>> than from any other source on the planet. Moreover, those people *really*
>> don't appreciate me evangelizing anything. Consequently, I've avoided
>> Reddit
>> like the plague.
>> 
>> I don't know what kind of readership exists at Reddit, but they are
>> openly
>> hostile. So you'll forgive me if I don't lend much credence to what
>> Redditors say.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
>>> st 5. 2. 2020 v 20:48 odesílatel horrido <
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>> > napsal:
>>> 
>>>> I learned a long time ago that you can't please everybody. I've heard
>>>> the
>>>> critics about my evangelism. I've also heard the praise.
>>>> 
>>>> So what am I supposed to do? Listen to the critics and ignore the fans?
>>>> 
>>>> If you're an evangelist, you have to develop a thick skin and follow
>>>> your
>>>> heart. Otherwise, get out of the kitchen...
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> You are a victim of your own strong confirmation bias. I hardly can
>>> break
>>> it but I just want to point out that in the mentioned discussion, there
>>> was
>>> no fan of you (and there were more people complaining than the two I
>>> mentioned).
>>> 
>>> Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
>>>>> st 5. 2. 2020 v 19:02 odesílatel horrido <
>>>> 
>>>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>>> 
>>>>> > napsal:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You want to take the Smalltalk heritage as a definition, that’s ok.
>>>> We
>>>>>> don’t, and that’s ok too. Is about what we want to do.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Who's "we"?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Last time I checked, nobody owns Pharo. Pharo is not a bunch of core
>>>>>> developers; it's a community. And I believe there are many Pharoers
>>>> who
>>>>>> share my view.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Since I'm a Smalltalk evangelist and not a Pharo evangelist, I guess
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> shouldn't ever mention Pharo in my blog. After all, if it's not
>>>>>> Smalltalk,
>>>>>> why should I promote it???
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pharo 8.0 release Reddit discussion included some feedback you
>>>>> may appreciate:
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Thanks. Does this Pharo release removes feature "Richard Kenneth
>>>>> Eng"?
>>>>> That was the only feature in detriment to such an excellent
>>>>> environment
>>>> as
>>>>> Pharo."
>>>>> 
>>>>> "I really like the idea of pharo's features and smalltalk is quite
>>>>> interesting, but I can't help but be put off by the insanely stupid
>>>>> marketing culture around it. Most articles about it exaggerate way too
>>>>> much
>>>>> and seem like they're written by people who were paid to write about
>>>> it.
>>>>> Or
>>>>> maybe I'm reading Medium-cancer too much."
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> In fact, this is disastrous for my JRMPC competition since it's based
>>>>>> entirely on Pharo. I'm promoting Smalltalk but pushing Pharo on all
>>>> the
>>>>>> participating teams??? What the f*ck am I doing?!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

I'm not sure ANSI compliance is particularly useful. Nobody develops an
application strictly to the ANSI standard. Ben Coman had to port VisualWorks
code to Pharo for my JRMPC competition and it wasn't exactly a cake walk.

My friend Bob Nemic got confused between VisualWorks and Pharo because of
the IDE! There is no standard convention applied to Smalltalk IDEs and, to
me, that's a big issue as well.

The fact is, the world of Smalltalk is just like the world of Linux. There
are enough differences among the various family members that you just have
to adapt. It will never be easy.



TedVanGaalen wrote
> Yes, Esteban, 
> 
> maybe I was a bit harsh, in a sense you're right too,
> However it becomes blurred then wat Smalltalk really is.
> (e.g. I recommend Pharo as Smalltalk to others) 
> 
> I would prefer -but who am I- 
> that all Smalltalk dialects should implement 
> the ANSI standard as a minimum and at least on 
> that level stay compatible.
> New developments should be built on top of that.
> and get incorporated in the ANSI standard at certain points in time.
> So that everybody on this planet can work with one Smalltalk.
> That makes sense, don't you agree? 
> 
> They came very close to that with PLs like COBOL, ANSI C etc. 
> 
> Standardization is industrial. No need
> to further explain this I guess. 
> 
> The f. devil lives in the details, as they say,
> and it is exactly those little differences
> that makes it very hard to port packages
> from one Smalltalk dialect to another.
> 
> In the current situation, that is where everybody wants to 
> go their own unique way, this has the consequence that
> if one Smalltalk dialect disappears (e.g. Squeak, Pharo, 
> Visualworks, whatever)  this would render packages 
> with often tons of work(e.g. Roassal ?) 
> worthless because they don't load/work in other Smalltalk 
> implementations/dialects without rewriting and retesting 
> the package again. This should not be the case. 
> 
> Again, I am impressed by Pharo and really like it.
> but for me it goes too far to say that Pharo isn't Smalltalk.
> 
> As a user, I edit classes methods etc in exactly the same
> way (syntax) as in most other Smalltalk dialects. 
> If you would take out the Smalltalk from Pharo all is left
> are a few bolts and nuts rendered useless: nothing
> to mount it on.  
> 
> (Still the differences are currently not that big: 
> if I can file in st files from Squeak from 2010 and the 
> only thing I had to change was a datetime property) 
> (yet another reason I don't use traits is to remain compatible
> as much as possible between different Smalltalk implementations)
> 
> my 4 cents. :o)
> Regards, thank you.
> TedvG
> btw
> Hard to convince people about this: 
> Also. nothing should be deprecated.
> Old sources should remain compatible.
> (Not like in Swift, where I had to rewrite parts of my 
> apps nearly every year because of deprecation fever)
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

I beg to differ. I believe it is possible to re-energize Smalltalk. I believe
/marketing/ is the key.

Read
https://medium.com/@richardeng/yes-it-is-allow-me-to-explain-dbd33ef0ff21

I've always known this was an uphill battle. Ultimately, you may be right,
but I choose to be more optimistic.

My philosophy is that it's better to have tried and failed, then to not have
tried at all.



Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
> st 5. 2. 2020 v 20:42 odesílatel horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > napsal:
> 
>> > It is your initiative, you should know, nobody asked you to do it
>>
>> Well, that's a peculiar attitude. There are many, many programming
>> language
>> evangelists and I don't think anybody "asked" them to do it. They do it
>> for
>> the love of the language.
>>
>> I hear what you're saying, and I understand fully. I just don't agree
>> with
>> it entirely.
>>
>> I think it's short-sighted. Smalltalk has long been criticized for being
>> a
>> secluded island, and now you want to do the same for Pharo? Even as I try
>> to
>> build bridges to the island?
>>
>> You could ban everybody from this forum who aren't focussed 100% on Pharo
>> and you'd have a much smaller community. You could ban everybody who is a
>> Smalltalker. The result is a much more tightly focussed forum, clean and
>> free from distractions. Fine. But what is the long-term cost?
>>
>> Smalltalk evangelism would come to an end. Why? Because frankly nobody is
>> interested in the other Smalltalks. Pharo is where all the action is.
>>
>> And without Smalltalk evangelism, I don't see a path for Pharo becoming
>> more
>> than a niche language. Pharo doesn't show up an *any* language popularity
>> index. At least Clojure, Erlang/Elixir, and Haskell are in the top 30 in
>> several places.
>>
>> At Indeed, there are 18 job postings in the United States that mention
>> Smalltalk, and none for Pharo. Even Clojure has 404, Erlang has 274, and
>> Haskell has 519, pathetic though these numbers are.
>>
>> Yes, I also understand that there are many Pharoers who don't care about
>> remaining niche. That's a tragedy.
>>
>> I would rather not have wasted the last five years of my life.
>>
> 
> Sorry to say that but you wasted the last five years of your life. Google
> trends for Smalltalk:
> 
> [image: chrome_JbORSPVuGv.png]
> 
> Smalltalk is dead. Dead and no-one can change it. It is an interesting
> historical curiosity. You are trying to sell a dead horse.
> And yes, Pharo is an irrelevant niche language and it is very unlikely
> that
> it will change in future. It definitely will not change If it will be
> promoted the way you do that.
> 
> -- Pavel
> 
> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>
> 
> 
> chrome_JbORSPVuGv.png (11K)
> <http://forum.world.st/attachment/5111235/0/chrome_JbORSPVuGv.png>;





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

Reddit is a strange bird. I have found more resistance to Smalltalk there
than from any other source on the planet. Moreover, those people *really*
don't appreciate me evangelizing anything. Consequently, I've avoided Reddit
like the plague.

I don't know what kind of readership exists at Reddit, but they are openly
hostile. So you'll forgive me if I don't lend much credence to what
Redditors say.



Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
> st 5. 2. 2020 v 20:48 odesílatel horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > napsal:
> 
>> I learned a long time ago that you can't please everybody. I've heard the
>> critics about my evangelism. I've also heard the praise.
>>
>> So what am I supposed to do? Listen to the critics and ignore the fans?
>>
>> If you're an evangelist, you have to develop a thick skin and follow your
>> heart. Otherwise, get out of the kitchen...
>>
> 
> You are a victim of your own strong confirmation bias. I hardly can break
> it but I just want to point out that in the mentioned discussion, there
> was
> no fan of you (and there were more people complaining than the two I
> mentioned).
> 
> Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
>> > st 5. 2. 2020 v 19:02 odesílatel horrido <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> > > napsal:
>> >
>> >> > You want to take the Smalltalk heritage as a definition, that’s ok.
>> We
>> >> don’t, and that’s ok too. Is about what we want to do.
>> >>
>> >> Who's "we"?
>> >>
>> >> Last time I checked, nobody owns Pharo. Pharo is not a bunch of core
>> >> developers; it's a community. And I believe there are many Pharoers
>> who
>> >> share my view.
>> >>
>> >> Since I'm a Smalltalk evangelist and not a Pharo evangelist, I guess I
>> >> shouldn't ever mention Pharo in my blog. After all, if it's not
>> >> Smalltalk,
>> >> why should I promote it???
>> >>
>> >
>> > Pharo 8.0 release Reddit discussion included some feedback you
>> > may appreciate:
>> >
>> > "Thanks. Does this Pharo release removes feature "Richard Kenneth Eng"?
>> > That was the only feature in detriment to such an excellent environment
>> as
>> > Pharo."
>> >
>> > "I really like the idea of pharo's features and smalltalk is quite
>> > interesting, but I can't help but be put off by the insanely stupid
>> > marketing culture around it. Most articles about it exaggerate way too
>> > much
>> > and seem like they're written by people who were paid to write about
>> it.
>> > Or
>> > maybe I'm reading Medium-cancer too much."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> In fact, this is disastrous for my JRMPC competition since it's based
>> >> entirely on Pharo. I'm promoting Smalltalk but pushing Pharo on all
>> the
>> >> participating teams??? What the f*ck am I doing?!!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

I'm not sure whose feedback I should regard as wisdom. This uncertainty stems
from a key philosophical difference I had 5 years ago. Read  Interview with
a Smalltalk Evangelist
<https://medium.com/@richardeng/interview-with-a-smalltalk-evangelist-711e3f18b835>
 
.

At the time, I don't think anybody agreed with me philosophically. I imagine
most of you /still/ don't agree with me.

So given this disagreement, how can I regard any feedback as wisdom?

> but given your recent questions in the list, you don't today.

You are correct, I'm no longer much of a programmer today. I retired many
years ago and I've grown rusty. Nevertheless, my background qualifies me to
evangelize a programming language at an overview level. I may not be able to
evangelize at a technical code level, but at a conceptual level, I certainly
can.



Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 4:48 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>
>> I learned a long time ago that you can't please everybody. I've heard the
>> critics about my evangelism. I've also heard the praise.
>>
>> So what am I supposed to do? Listen to the critics and ignore the fans?
> 
> tr;dr answer: know who you listen to.
> 
> But if you've been for a while (it is, years) here in this tiny tribe
> (in global scale) that is the Smalltalk community, you'd pay attention
> to the critics from many whose feedback can be treated as wisdom.
> 
> In particular when you're promoting something that you might have
> mastered in the past, but given your recent questions in the list, you
> don't today.
> 
> Smalltalk as a concept lacks a good PR these days, so does Pharo as a
> product (although non-commercial), but Pharo has been successful in
> growing organically and create some kind of grassroots, albeit slow.
> 
> And in technical environments bad PR is counterproductive and if you
> push too hard it usually fires back.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Esteban A. Maringolo





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

I don't think conformance or non-conformance to ANSI is important. This is a
red herring.

If Pharo becomes mainstream, nobody will care about ANSI conformance. Ditto
for any other flavour of Smalltalk.

> Pharo is Pharo, a Smalltalk descendant with its own life

And VisualWorks doesn't have its own life? How about VA Smalltalk? This is
sophistry.



cedreek wrote
>> Le 5 févr. 2020 à 19:50, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > a écrit :
>> 
>> Yes, these are two completely different issues...
>> 
>> - Pharo is Smalltalk
> 
> As you state, you use Smalltalk as the superset of all Smalltalk
> descendance, what Sven call ‘Concept’ and this is true to me.
> 
> But, as I understand it (I’m not a board member), if called « Smalltalk », 
> then some people will ask (and debate) so that Pharo has to be conform to
> ANSI Smalltalk standard (the standard approved on May 19, 1998). 
> 
> Pharo is a fork of squeak and can be seen as Smalltalk-80 grand-parent,
> Squeak being the parent ^^. 
> Pharo wants to emancipate as all child. Squeak actually had/have this
> recurring question already [1].  
> 
> Pharo *from the start* decided not to be ANSI compliant as it is
> orthogonal to the envisioned progress/changes (Trait are one first example
> and this really was a hard discussion and probably what settled the fork).
> 
> I think Pharo founders wanted to avoid flaming wars again on design and
> architectural decisions by trying to squeeze this aspect (not a pure
> smalltalk so do no expect ANSI compliance) and now, as a result, we get
> this backlashing thread where people feel Pharo don’t assume Smalltalk
> heritage. Life is often ironic :-s.
> 
> Pharo is Pharo, a Smalltalk descendant with its own life, and even if they
> share lots of the same ADN. 
> 
> My 2 cents,
> 
> Cédrick
> 
> [1] https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/172
> <https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/172>;
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> - you don't want general Smalltalk discussion polluting this forum
>> 
>> I get it. But as I point out  here
>> <http://forum.world.st/Fuzzy-Thinking-in-Smalltalk-tp511p591.html>;
>>  
>> , Pharo is in a unique position and I would hope that the Pharo community
>> is
>> willing to participate in evangelizing Smalltalk.
>> 
>> If there is truly another avenue that is as effective, I'm all ears.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>>> On 5 Feb 2020, at 18:50, horrido <
>> 
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>> 
>>> > wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> It would be like trying to deny that Clojure, Scheme, and Racket are
>>>> not
>>>> LISP. Only an imbecile would claim they're not.
>>> 
>>> I am pretty sure the mailing lists of Clojure, Scheme or Racket don't
>>> want
>>> you to go there to discuss Common Lisp or Emacs' Lisp or to talk about
>>> general lisp revivals.
>>> 
>>> Especially, they would not want you tell them what they should or can't
>>> do
>>> based on their history.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

I learned a long time ago that you can't please everybody. I've heard the
critics about my evangelism. I've also heard the praise.

So what am I supposed to do? Listen to the critics and ignore the fans?

If you're an evangelist, you have to develop a thick skin and follow your
heart. Otherwise, get out of the kitchen...



Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote
> st 5. 2. 2020 v 19:02 odesílatel horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > napsal:
> 
>> > You want to take the Smalltalk heritage as a definition, that’s ok. We
>> don’t, and that’s ok too. Is about what we want to do.
>>
>> Who's "we"?
>>
>> Last time I checked, nobody owns Pharo. Pharo is not a bunch of core
>> developers; it's a community. And I believe there are many Pharoers who
>> share my view.
>>
>> Since I'm a Smalltalk evangelist and not a Pharo evangelist, I guess I
>> shouldn't ever mention Pharo in my blog. After all, if it's not
>> Smalltalk,
>> why should I promote it???
>>
> 
> Pharo 8.0 release Reddit discussion included some feedback you
> may appreciate:
> 
> "Thanks. Does this Pharo release removes feature "Richard Kenneth Eng"?
> That was the only feature in detriment to such an excellent environment as
> Pharo."
> 
> "I really like the idea of pharo's features and smalltalk is quite
> interesting, but I can't help but be put off by the insanely stupid
> marketing culture around it. Most articles about it exaggerate way too
> much
> and seem like they're written by people who were paid to write about it.
> Or
> maybe I'm reading Medium-cancer too much."
> 
> 
> 
>> In fact, this is disastrous for my JRMPC competition since it's based
>> entirely on Pharo. I'm promoting Smalltalk but pushing Pharo on all the
>> participating teams??? What the f*ck am I doing?!!
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

> It is your initiative, you should know, nobody asked you to do it

Well, that's a peculiar attitude. There are many, many programming language
evangelists and I don't think anybody "asked" them to do it. They do it for
the love of the language.

I hear what you're saying, and I understand fully. I just don't agree with
it entirely.

I think it's short-sighted. Smalltalk has long been criticized for being a
secluded island, and now you want to do the same for Pharo? Even as I try to
build bridges to the island?

You could ban everybody from this forum who aren't focussed 100% on Pharo
and you'd have a much smaller community. You could ban everybody who is a
Smalltalker. The result is a much more tightly focussed forum, clean and
free from distractions. Fine. But what is the long-term cost?

Smalltalk evangelism would come to an end. Why? Because frankly nobody is
interested in the other Smalltalks. Pharo is where all the action is.

And without Smalltalk evangelism, I don't see a path for Pharo becoming more
than a niche language. Pharo doesn't show up an *any* language popularity
index. At least Clojure, Erlang/Elixir, and Haskell are in the top 30 in
several places.

At Indeed, there are 18 job postings in the United States that mention
Smalltalk, and none for Pharo. Even Clojure has 404, Erlang has 274, and
Haskell has 519, pathetic though these numbers are.

Yes, I also understand that there are many Pharoers who don't care about
remaining niche. That's a tragedy.

I would rather not have wasted the last five years of my life.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

Yes, these are two completely different issues...

- Pharo is Smalltalk

- you don't want general Smalltalk discussion polluting this forum

I get it. But as I point out  here
<http://forum.world.st/Fuzzy-Thinking-in-Smalltalk-tp511p591.html> 
, Pharo is in a unique position and I would hope that the Pharo community is
willing to participate in evangelizing Smalltalk.

If there is truly another avenue that is as effective, I'm all ears.



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 5 Feb 2020, at 18:50, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> It would be like trying to deny that Clojure, Scheme, and Racket are not
>> LISP. Only an imbecile would claim they're not.
> 
> I am pretty sure the mailing lists of Clojure, Scheme or Racket don't want
> you to go there to discuss Common Lisp or Emacs' Lisp or to talk about
> general lisp revivals.
> 
> Especially, they would not want you tell them what they should or can't do
> based on their history.





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

> You want to take the Smalltalk heritage as a definition, that’s ok. We
don’t, and that’s ok too. Is about what we want to do.

Who's "we"?

Last time I checked, nobody owns Pharo. Pharo is not a bunch of core
developers; it's a community. And I believe there are many Pharoers who
share my view.

Since I'm a Smalltalk evangelist and not a Pharo evangelist, I guess I
shouldn't ever mention Pharo in my blog. After all, if it's not Smalltalk,
why should I promote it???

In fact, this is disastrous for my JRMPC competition since it's based
entirely on Pharo. I'm promoting Smalltalk but pushing Pharo on all the
participating teams??? What the f*ck am I doing?!!



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

[horrido]

> pharo is not smalltalk

I understand that Pharo wants to chart its own future, and that's great, but
to deny its heritage only makes Pharo look haughty and foolish because...

Pharo *is* Smalltalk in the same way that VisualWorks is Smalltalk and VA
Smalltalk is Smalltalk and GemStone/S is Smalltalk and Squeak is Smalltalk
and Dolphin Smalltalk is Smalltalk and so on.

At their core, they're all Smalltalk. Their individual enhancements don't
change this. And from 10,000 feet up, even their IDEs look all the same.

It would be like trying to deny that Clojure, Scheme, and Racket are not
LISP. Only an imbecile would claim they're not. If it walks like a duck and
it quacks like a duck...

To be honest, I can't fathom the reason for denying that Pharo is Smalltalk.
I don't see what it accomplishes. Smalltalk's heritage is not an
albatross... it's a Russian rocket launcher

 
.


> So in order to reach the people that are interested in smalltalk there are
> plenty of better channels to put things there.

Like what??? Name me one place that's well-populated and actively maintained
for Smalltalk discussion. I scoured the web for such places and they were
all ghost towns.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

[horrido]

I see two major points here. First, that this forum is supposedly only for
Pharo-related matters (not general Smalltalk-related matters), and second,
that people want to see actual source code.

I think this is too narrow a viewpoint and here's why. First, the Pharo
Smalltalk Users forum is, as far as I can tell, the largest
Smalltalk-related forum in the world. This is a testament to the popularity
and power of Pharo.

So, if you want to reach the *largest Smalltalk audience*, this is
unquestionably the best forum to do so. We should not limit ourselves to
only Pharo-related matters; this doesn't help the broader Smalltalk
community.

There are many subscribers here who use other Smalltalks. They may come here
simply because the forum is so large. If the size of the Pharo forum was
insignificant, why would others bother to come here?

I've said this before: a rising tide lifts all boats. We should help each
other...Pharo, Squeak, VA Smalltalk, GemStone/S, etc. This is a great
community, so let's not sequester ourselves into cliques.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that Cincom users come here for user support.
Exercise good judgement here. But we can discuss Smalltalk topics of a more
general nature.

It's a two-way street: Pharo and other Smalltalks can cross-fertilize with
each other. That's why Lorenzo's article is so valuable.

Second, Lorenzo's article didn't show source code, but it did provide an
interesting backdrop. We can see the value of fuzzy logic and how Lorenzo
applied it. This may inspire others to follow up on this in whatever way
they deem appropriate. Maybe someone will implement fuzzy logic in Pharo!
That would be something.

I would like to believe that the Pharo community is a generous and gracious
one. That would help Smalltalkers everywhere. All for one and one for all.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] R: R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

[horrido]

Do you mean this one?
https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/2015/01/06/smalltalk-in-business-italian-style/



Lorenzo wrote
> Some years ago I sent you a paper that you published; I have lost the
> original and I hoped you had it.
> 
> If not, no problem.
> 
> Lorenzo
> 
> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: Pharo-users [mailto:

> pharo-users-bounces@.pharo

> ] Per conto di horrido
> Inviato: martedì 4 febbraio 2020 17:53
> A: 

> pharo-users@.pharo

> Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk
> 
> Sorry, to what are you referring?
> 
> 
> Lorenzo wrote
>> Hi Rich,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> thank you very much for your excellent work!
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Do you have a reference to my previous paper?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Grazie.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Ciao
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Da: Pharo-users [mailto:
> 
>> pharo-users-bounces@.pharo
> 
>> ] Per conto di Richard Kenneth Eng
>> Inviato: martedì 4 febbraio 2020 13:51
>> A: 
> 
>> pharo-users@.pharo
> 
>> Oggetto: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From Lorenzo Schiavina:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/02/04/fuzzy-thinking-in-smalltalk/
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> There's a minor issue with WordPress: embedded slideshows steal the 
>> keyboard focus so that you can't use PageUp and PageDown keys to 
>> navigate the webpage. I've reported it to WordPress and they're working
>> on it.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I'm still looking for more blog post submissions. Let's keep this blog 
>> alive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

[horrido]

Sorry, to what are you referring?


Lorenzo wrote
> Hi Rich,
> 
>  
> 
> thank you very much for your excellent work!
> 
>  
> 
> Do you have a reference to my previous paper?
> 
>  
> 
> Grazie.
> 
>  
> 
> Ciao
> 
>  
> 
> Da: Pharo-users [mailto:

> pharo-users-bounces@.pharo

> ] Per conto di Richard Kenneth Eng
> Inviato: martedì 4 febbraio 2020 13:51
> A: 

> pharo-users@.pharo

> Oggetto: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk
> 
>  
> 
> From Lorenzo Schiavina:
> 
>  
> 
> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/02/04/fuzzy-thinking-in-smalltalk/ 
> 
>  
> 
> There's a minor issue with WordPress: embedded slideshows steal the
> keyboard focus so that you can't use PageUp and PageDown keys to navigate
> the webpage. I've reported it to WordPress and they're working on it.
> 
>  
> 
> I'm still looking for more blog post submissions. Let's keep this blog
> alive!





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Round 1 test

[horrido]

Please note: this is a /demonstration/ video. The first actual competition
video will be released this weekend after Round 1 completes.



tbrunz wrote
> Excellent!  I've bookmarked it to show others.
> 
> That answered my questions (and those that others will inevitably ask,
> too).  
> 
> -t
> 
> (Well, maybe one more: What's the criterion for when the robot stops?  Is
> it
> after a set number of moves?)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Round 1 test

[horrido]

It took four takes, but I think I've got it nailed for good:
https://youtu.be/ArEWif7JUBk

I'm hoping these kinds of videos from the competition will be great
advertising. We shall see...




--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Round 1 test

[horrido]

It's in this blog post at jrmpc.ca:
https://jrmpc.ca/2020/01/09/round-1-challenge/

/The object is to get the highest score possible by navigating the robot
around the board according to your strategy./


I've created an improved version of the video due to feedback:
https://youtu.be/v7vZ4S4UBvw



tbrunz wrote
> Great demo of graphics animation...
> 
> But I'm left wondering, "What's the goal of this round?" and "What are the
> rules that the applications have to follow while achieving the goal?"
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Poll

[horrido]

Richard Sargent wrote
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:13 AM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> That's right. The poll is for non-Smalltalkers. The goal is to identify
>> the
>> pain points and then to respond to those points in a future blog post.
>>
> 
> Oh. Then you shouldn't have left out the "I don't want to write less code
> and fewer errors" choice.
> 
> 
>>
>>
>> Tim Mackinnon wrote
>> > Is this a poll you expect none of us to take?
>> >
>> > Maybe
>> > - it’s too productive and fun, real programmers should be made to
>> suffer
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On 29 Jan 2020, at 13:00, Esteban Maringolo <
>>
>> > emaringolo@
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Final and correct option: All the above :-D
>> >>
>> >> Esteban A. Maringolo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:40 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> >>> I'm crafting a Smalltalk poll for my blog. I just wanted to get some
>> >>> feedback. Have I overlooked anything?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >
>> >
>> > image.png (87K)
>> > <http://forum.world.st/attachment/5110875/0/image.png>;
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Poll

[horrido]

That's right. The poll is for non-Smalltalkers. The goal is to identify the
pain points and then to respond to those points in a future blog post.



Tim Mackinnon wrote
> Is this a poll you expect none of us to take?
> 
> Maybe
> - it’s too productive and fun, real programmers should be made to suffer
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 29 Jan 2020, at 13:00, Esteban Maringolo <

> emaringolo@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> Final and correct option: All the above :-D
>> 
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:40 AM Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>> I'm crafting a Smalltalk poll for my blog. I just wanted to get some
>>> feedback. Have I overlooked anything?
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> image.png (87K)
> ;





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Resources Page

[horrido]

If someone can confirm that this is still true, I'll update the Resources
Page.



Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list wrote
> I don't know if it's still the case but "trial version" for VAST, in the 
> past, only meant that you could use the product forever but you didn't 
> have the possibility to create an executable iirc.
> 
> On 2020-01-28 20:37, horrido wrote:
>> I never consider a trial version as a free product. As far as I'm
>> considered,
>> it's only free (or Community Edition) if I can use it indefinitely.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dale Henrichs-3 wrote
>>> I think the free license is contingent upon having contributed to an
>>> open source project. Also there appears to be free trial version[1].
>>>
>>> Dale
>>>
>>> [1] https://www.instantiations.com/products/vasmalltalk/download.html
>>>
>>> On 1/28/20 5:25 PM, Richard Sargent wrote:
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 17:21 horrido <
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>>   
>>> > <mailto:
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>> >> wrote:
>>>>  Done. I didn't realize there was a free license for GemStone/S.
>>>>
>>>>  Too bad VA Smalltalk doesn't offer a free license.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe they do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Richard Sargent (again) wrote
>>>>  > Thank you, Richard.
>>>>  >
>>>>  > Would you be kind enough to annotate the GemStone link to point
>>>>  out that
>>>>  > we have a free license that permits commercial use, not only
>>>>  personal use.
>>>>  >
>>>>  > Thanks again for all your hard work!
>>>>  >
>>>>  >
>>>>  > On January 28, 2020 2:24:16 PM PST, Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>>>
>>>>  > horrido.hobbies@
>>>>
>>>>  > > wrote:
>>>>  >>I've added a Resources page to my new blog:
>>>>  >>https://smalltalk.tech.blog/resources/.
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>It is very much a *curated *list. I felt this was needed because
>>>>  when I
>>>>  >>visit other Smalltalk resources pages, I get overwhelmed by the
>>>>  number
>>>>  >>of
>>>>  >>links and options. It is possible to have *too many* choices.
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>Moreover, many of those links are either broken, or they point
>>>> to
>>>>  >>obscure
>>>>  >>materials that people may not be interested in.
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>As curator, it is my job to present those links that I believe
>>>>  will be
>>>>  >>useful. Of course, this is necessarily very subjective.
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >>Also, it is likely that I've overlooked some links that others
>>>>  feel are
>>>>  >>useful. However, I am open-minded. If there are Smalltalk links
>>>> that
>>>>  >>you
>>>>  >>believe I should consider, please let me know.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  Sent from:
>>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
> -- 
> -
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> Instagram: Chef_Benito
> IRC: lamneth
> GitHub: bstjean
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Resources Page

[horrido]

I never consider a trial version as a free product. As far as I'm considered,
it's only free (or Community Edition) if I can use it indefinitely.



Dale Henrichs-3 wrote
> I think the free license is contingent upon having contributed to an 
> open source project. Also there appears to be free trial version[1].
> 
> Dale
> 
> [1] https://www.instantiations.com/products/vasmalltalk/download.html
> 
> On 1/28/20 5:25 PM, Richard Sargent wrote:
>> Thanks.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 17:21 horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

>  
> > <mailto:

> horrido.hobbies@

> >> wrote:
>>
>> Done. I didn't realize there was a free license for GemStone/S.
>>
>> Too bad VA Smalltalk doesn't offer a free license.
>>
>>
>> I believe they do.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard Sargent (again) wrote
>> > Thank you, Richard.
>> >
>> > Would you be kind enough to annotate the GemStone link to point
>> out that
>> > we have a free license that permits commercial use, not only
>> personal use.
>> >
>> > Thanks again for all your hard work!
>> >
>> >
>> > On January 28, 2020 2:24:16 PM PST, Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> >>I've added a Resources page to my new blog:
>> >>https://smalltalk.tech.blog/resources/.
>> >>
>> >>It is very much a *curated *list. I felt this was needed because
>> when I
>> >>visit other Smalltalk resources pages, I get overwhelmed by the
>> number
>> >>of
>> >>links and options. It is possible to have *too many* choices.
>> >>
>> >>Moreover, many of those links are either broken, or they point to
>> >>obscure
>> >>materials that people may not be interested in.
>> >>
>> >>As curator, it is my job to present those links that I believe
>> will be
>> >>useful. Of course, this is necessarily very subjective.
>> >>
>> >>Also, it is likely that I've overlooked some links that others
>> feel are
>> >>useful. However, I am open-minded. If there are Smalltalk links
>> that
>> >>you
>> >>believe I should consider, please let me know.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Resources Page

[horrido]

Done. I didn't realize there was a free license for GemStone/S.

Too bad VA Smalltalk doesn't offer a free license.



Richard Sargent (again) wrote
> Thank you, Richard.
> 
> Would you be kind enough to annotate the GemStone link to point out that
> we have a free license that permits commercial use, not only personal use.
> 
> Thanks again for all your hard work!
> 
> 
> On January 28, 2020 2:24:16 PM PST, Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>I've added a Resources page to my new blog:
>>https://smalltalk.tech.blog/resources/.
>>
>>It is very much a *curated *list. I felt this was needed because when I
>>visit other Smalltalk resources pages, I get overwhelmed by the number
>>of
>>links and options. It is possible to have *too many* choices.
>>
>>Moreover, many of those links are either broken, or they point to
>>obscure
>>materials that people may not be interested in.
>>
>>As curator, it is my job to present those links that I believe will be
>>useful. Of course, this is necessarily very subjective.
>>
>>Also, it is likely that I've overlooked some links that others feel are
>>useful. However, I am open-minded. If there are Smalltalk links that
>>you
>>believe I should consider, please let me know.





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Re: [Pharo-users] Resources Page

[horrido]

tbrunz wrote
> Very good, Richard -- this is helpful, and is a great page to refer people
> to.
> 
> The image(?) under "Miscellaneous" is broken (at least in my browser; the
> other links all work.)

Fixed. Thanks.


> You might consider adding a link to "A Terse Guide to Pharo", 
> https://gist.github.com/jdevoo/8e8866cd6087e05790841d0f20b2e377

Learn Smalltalk in Y Minutes   
has nearly identical contents and I cited it in the Smalltalk Resources
section.


> Another thing to consider is a section (or page) for Smalltalk demos
> (postings that demonstrate Smalltalk strengths and attractive aspects);
> you
> already have one, "Seven minutes of Pharo for Rubyists".  There are many
> more...

Perhaps you can provide a few more examples? Thanks.




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Re: [Pharo-users] New Smalltalk Blog

[horrido]

Here's the third from Leandro: 
https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/01/26/extending-the-smalltalk-syntax-3/
<https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/01/26/extending-the-smalltalk-syntax-3/>  

It would be really nice if I could find a few more articles to publish
(hint, hint). 



horrido wrote
> Here's the second of four in the series from Leandro:  Extending the
> Smalltalk Syntax 2
> <https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/01/23/extending-the-smalltalk-syntax-2/>;
>  
> .
> 
> I'm looking for submissions, so if any of you are interested, please send
> me
> an email.
> 
> 
> 
> horrido wrote
>> I've created a new Smalltalk blog <https://smalltalk.tech.blog/>;.
>> I've left
>> Medium because of their pressure to put everyone behind a paywall.
>> 
>> I've opened up the blog for third-party submissions. Anyone can email me
>> an
>> article submission and if I deem it appropriate, I will edit and publish
>> it. Here's an example from Leandro Caniglia, President of FAST: Extending
>> the Smalltalk Syntax
>> <https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/01/20/extending-the-smalltalk-syntax/>;.
>> 
>> Articles should serve to showcase why Smalltalk is such a great language.
>> If possible, an accompanying eye-catching feature image would be nice.
>> (If
>> you look at the other posts, you'll see images of a Maserati and a
>> Tesla!)
>> 
>> I would prefer the article submissions to be in LibreOffice format. It
>> would make it easier for me to edit.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Smalltalk Blog

[horrido]

If I'm not mistaken, all you have to do is add '/feed/' to the URL, like
https://smalltalk.tech.blog/feed/.

Of course, I don't /really/ know what the f*ck I'm talking about.



horrido wrote
> I don't know anything about RSS. How do I enable it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





--
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Re: [Pharo-users] New Smalltalk Blog

[horrido]

I don't know anything about RSS. How do I enable it?





--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] New Smalltalk Blog

[horrido]

Here's the second of four in the series from Leandro:  Extending the
Smalltalk Syntax 2
<https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/01/23/extending-the-smalltalk-syntax-2/> 
.

I'm looking for submissions, so if any of you are interested, please send me
an email.



horrido wrote
> I've created a new Smalltalk blog <https://smalltalk.tech.blog/>;.
> I've left
> Medium because of their pressure to put everyone behind a paywall.
> 
> I've opened up the blog for third-party submissions. Anyone can email me
> an
> article submission and if I deem it appropriate, I will edit and publish
> it. Here's an example from Leandro Caniglia, President of FAST: Extending
> the Smalltalk Syntax
> <https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/01/20/extending-the-smalltalk-syntax/>;.
> 
> Articles should serve to showcase why Smalltalk is such a great language.
> If possible, an accompanying eye-catching feature image would be nice. (If
> you look at the other posts, you'll see images of a Maserati and a Tesla!)
> 
> I would prefer the article submissions to be in LibreOffice format. It
> would make it easier for me to edit.
> 
> Thanks,
> Richard





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Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo display bug

[horrido]

Thanks! Works perfectly.



Torsten Bergmann wrote
> This is a known issue with FreeType - it happens in some images and in
> next automatically
> built image it is gone. See all details in:
> 
>   https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/2336
> 
> Workaround:
> 
> Just go to the WorldMenu Pharo -> Settings (to open the SettingsBrowser)
>  -> Appearance -> Switch the "Use Free Type" checkbox twice and fonts will
> be OK again
> 
> Thx
> T.
> 
> 
> 
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 18. Januar 2020 um 19:29 Uhr
>> Von: "tbrunz" <

> wild.ideas@

> >
>> An: 

> pharo-users@.pharo

>> Betreff: Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo display bug
>>
>> Richard,
>>
>> It's pretty easy.  Surf to the 'issues' page of the Pharo repo, which is
>> in
>> the 'pharo-project' organization in GitHub:
>>
>> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues
>>
>> Click the bright green "New issue" button, then describe away...
>>
>> -Ted
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Latest Pharo Update

[horrido]

Reinstalling Pharo from scratch fixes it. Somehow, the automatic update is
broken.




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Re: [Pharo-users] As promised, the sequel!

[horrido]

Getting an idea suggestion for an article is plagiarism???

I get ideas from all kinds of sources. From friends. From strangers. From
television and movies. Et cetera. There's no point in citing all of them.



xap wrote
> tbrunz, my comment above was to pander to my own selfish views of
> how-the-world-ought -to-work than for your benefit ;-)
> 
> My own druthers would have been to refer to this list and your comments in
> the para "Pharo is also extremely versatile which is well-explained in
> this
> article, “Smalltalk: It’s Not Your Grandparent’s Programming Language.”"
> 
> As it is -- to me -- it smacks vaguely of plagiarism, and is the sort of
> stunt that gets one expelled -- certainly, called up to the dean -- in an
> educational institution of any standing. I expect more inclusivity and
> grace
> from a community builder or evangelist.
> 
> But, that's me.
> 
> *shrug*
> 
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





--
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Re: [Pharo-users] As promised, the sequel!

[horrido]

Thanks, Ted.

Yes, I chose red for the Tesla because it complements the blue I chose for
the Maserati. You see, everything I do has a reason.

I was also wondering what other technologies have undergone a revival. To be
honest, it's hard to come up with anything.

(Even the Buratino rocket launcher fits in with this motif. Three vehicles,
all with a similar visual orientation.)

I suppose I could cite Objective-C as an example. In the late 1980s, it was
chosen by Steve Jobs' NeXT company for developing their software. As we all
know, NeXT ultimately failed and along with it, Objective-C.

Many years later, Apple's iPhone made Objective-C the darling of the IT
world. This was a tremendous revival.

The problem with this story is that NeXT/Objective-C was never /really/ that
popular to begin with.

Maybe I can cite the audio turntable. It was once very popular. Then it died
with the arrival of the CD.

In recent years, vinyl records have again found a following.



tbrunz wrote
> Thanks, xap!  Great sequel, Richard.  I really like the lead image, too. 
> (Red was a good choice.)
> 
> This makes me wonder what other technology turn-arounds and revivals exist
> in history...  ;^)
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

This is exactly why I also push Smalltalk's simplicity. In the 1970s, Per
Brinch Hansen posited that a small, simple language would lead to fewer
programmer errors. The result of his work was the Edison programming
language. It was published in his book, "Programming a Personal Computer,"
which is one of my favourite programming books.

Of course, Per Brinch Hansen wasn't alone in this belief. It was also shared
by Niklaus Wirth who created Pascal and Oberon.

So it's not just Smalltalk's live programming environment that we should
herald. The size and simplicity of the language is a big deal.



Richard Sargent wrote
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:52 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
>> > But I have not
>> > being able to convince any of my coder friends to switch to Pharo
>> > instead of C++, Java or Javacript, which by the way, is the language
>> > they already know and use to put bread on the table on a daily basis.
>> >
>> > So I think that we deal with a paradox: while Smalltalk advocacy is
>> > better suited for a Blue Ocean Strategy[2], exploring and implementing
>> > new/emerging scenarios and markets, money is already mostly invested in
>> > Red Oceans of constituted technologies and practices ecosystems.
>> > Bridging both is pretty difficult.
>>
>> Yes, that is the principal obstacle and challenge. When I'm pushing
>> Smalltalk, I mention the language's simplicity and conciseness, I
>> mention the purity of the object-oriented model, I mention the
>> built-in IDE, and so on. But the key advantage that I emphasize
>> is *programmer productivity*.
>>
>> I realize it's hard to argue with the availability of jobs for Java,
>> Python,
>> JavaScript, etc. It's hard to argue with their rich ecosystems. It's
>> hard to argue with the status quo of established code bases and
>> IT infrastructures. But we have to make them believe that
>> Smalltalk can cut their development time in half, if not better.
>>
>> What is it worth to a company to cut their development time in half?
>> It means much lower development cost. It means much shorter
>> "time to market."
>>
> 
> It also means much lower error rates. Capers Jones also review errors /
> lines of code and Smalltalk was substantially better than the C derivative
> languages. I don't recall the ration, but I think the Namcook report does
> include it.
> 
> Fewer errors means a higher ratio of time spent delivering functionality
> and a better customer experience. (We can't do anything about bad design
> and UX practices, of course and unfortunately. Although, I suspect without
> evidence that Smalltalkers may do a better job of both.)
> 
> 
>> Is this not worth investing time and energy in Smalltalk? Even if the
>> job opportunities aren't there. Even if it means overhauling your
>> IT infrastructure.
>>
>> The investment can lead to more users and more jobs. If they don't
>> believe it, then we have failed.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>
>>





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Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote
> But I have not
> being able to convince any of my coder friends to switch to Pharo
> instead of C++, Java or Javacript, which by the way, is the language
> they already know and use to put bread on the table on a daily basis.
> 
> So I think that we deal with a paradox: while Smalltalk advocacy is
> better suited for a Blue Ocean Strategy[2], exploring and implementing
> new/emerging scenarios and markets, money is already mostly invested in
> Red Oceans of constituted technologies and practices ecosystems.
> Bridging both is pretty difficult.

Yes, that is the principal obstacle and challenge. When I'm pushing
Smalltalk, I mention the language's simplicity and conciseness, I
mention the purity of the object-oriented model, I mention the
built-in IDE, and so on. But the key advantage that I emphasize
is *programmer productivity*.

I realize it's hard to argue with the availability of jobs for Java, Python,
JavaScript, etc. It's hard to argue with their rich ecosystems. It's
hard to argue with the status quo of established code bases and
IT infrastructures. But we have to make them believe that
Smalltalk can cut their development time in half, if not better.

What is it worth to a company to cut their development time in half?
It means much lower development cost. It means much shorter
"time to market."

Is this not worth investing time and energy in Smalltalk? Even if the
job opportunities aren't there. Even if it means overhauling your
IT infrastructure.

The investment can lead to more users and more jobs. If they don't
believe it, then we have failed.



--
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Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

itli...@schrievkrom.de wrote
> Am 10.01.20 um 15:42 schrieb horrido:
> 
>> 
>>> So let's stop trying to convince people with things that mattered some 
>>> 20 years ago. Even the function point thingie we keep carrying in front 
>>> of our bellies (Capers-Jones was it?) is a lie when you want to build an 
>>> application for today's markets.
>> 
>> I disagree that it's a lie. The study is based on thousands of projects
>> and
>> millions of lines of code over a period of several decades, including
>> recent
> 
> Well, naming it a "lie" is perhaps too strong - but Joachim (did you
> have a bad Smalltalk day ?) statement is from my point of view
> correct - this talking about function point and productivity is an
> academic point.

Not so academic. After all, the study was based on a huge number of software 
projects for dozens of programming languages over many years. It doesn't get 
any more practical than that.

The analysis was simplified by adopting the "function points" model which 
provides a level playing field for all the languages. It's about the amount
of
time needed to do a certain amount of work, whether that work is specific to
a few domains or to many. Some people may take issue with the analysis, but
it's there for your consideration at any rate.

Since there is no other study of its kind in the world, I choose to use it
in my
advocacy. Readers can make their own judgement.




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Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

jtuchel wrote
> Am 10.01.20 um 10:16 schrieb Marten Feldtmann:
>> That happened once in the history of Smalltalk and the big player was
>> IBM ...
> 
> Well, twice actually ;-)
> Many people might not know that HP once was a Smalltalk vendor with 
> their distributed Smalltalk (which was actually a white-label copy of 
> VisualWorks iirc/iiuc)...
> 
> Big corporations do not warrant the success of a technology. We'd still 
> be using OS/2, BS2000, whatever...  today if that was the case.

True, but major tech adoption *can* greatly increase public mindshare. 
C#, TypeScript, Golang, Kotlin, Swift, and Rust are good examples.


> So let's stop trying to convince people with things that mattered some 
> 20 years ago. Even the function point thingie we keep carrying in front 
> of our bellies (Capers-Jones was it?) is a lie when you want to build an 
> application for today's markets.

I disagree that it's a lie. The study is based on thousands of projects and
millions of lines of code over a period of several decades, including recent
years with languages like C#, Ceylon, Dart, Elixir, F#, Golang, Haskell, 
Haxe, Julia, and LiveScript. Some of these are cutting-edge languages
used for modern applications.


> Smalltalk is great. If you don't need a mobile app to accompany your 
> product. It's great if your GUI doesn't have to be sexy as hell or you 
> are happy reinventing wheels. It is great if you only ship to PCs or on 
> the web and don't need a lot of interaction in the browser. Anything 
> else is hard in Smalltalk. If it's not, it is undocumented.

Well, perhaps not for ALL mobile apps, but Cordova is certainly used for
cross-platform mobile development. I've used it with Amber and PharoJS
and the documentation is pretty good.

People also use React Native, so there's no real reason to avoid JS.


> I am not sure if energy spent on these "syntax fits on a postcard and, 
> btw,  we have the balloon" articles could be better spent doing 
> something about the problems I mention here. I was in the same boat in 
> the late 90ies and early 2000's with my blog and articles and stuff. All 
> I found out was that nobody actually cares about these old hat stories. 
> Heck, a lot of people these days don't even care about maintainability. 
> You don't like it any more? No prob, we can redo it in this great new 
> (JS) framework anyways.

It's not an either-or situation. We can market Smalltalk *and* address the
technical weaknesses of Smalltalk. For example, I'm doing the former
and you guys are doing the latter. What's the problem?

It would be nice if more Smalltalkers got involved with Smalltalk marketing.
I can't do this forever.





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Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

The problem is that IBM and HP adopted Smalltalk at a time when Smalltalk
wasn't ready nor deserving. There was no major open source Smalltalk. There
were several commercial Smalltalk vendors sniping at each other. Smalltalk
was totally unprepared for the nascent web. Smalltalk was too heavy to run
on the hardware of the day. And C++ had a much stronger OOP narrative.

Today, we have many open source Smalltalks. The commercial vendors are more
civil. Smalltalk is most definitely web-ready. Smalltalk runs well on the
Raspberry Pi. And C++ is in decline, according to TIOBE.

Today, we need major tech adoption. Today's generation doesn't care about
who adopted what a quarter century ago. There's no reason IBM and HP
couldn't pick up the Smalltalk mantle again if they wanted to — the
Smalltalk landscape is totally different. The outlook for Smalltalk is a
brand new story.

Major tech companies are just as vulnerable to hype and marketing as human
beings are. They need to be persuaded to adopt Smalltalk. We can do our part
to help Amazon, Apple, HP, IBM, and others to see the light.



itli...@schrievkrom.de wrote
> That happened once in the history of Smalltalk and the big player was
> IBM ... and actually that really showed impact to the Smalltalk market.
> Lots of consultings were running around, get pretty much money to teach
> COBOL programmers how to use Smalltalk (or to be more precise: learn how
> to click programs together).
> 
> That hype perhaps lasted a few years ... and then IBM switched to Java
> ... so they never can go back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marten
> 
> Am 09.01.20 um 23:16 schrieb horrido:
> 
>> 
>> It would be really nice to have some big tech company adopt Smalltalk,
>> like
>> Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Netflix, Uber, etc. That
>> would
>> hit the ball right out of the park. Alas, I don't see that happening. I'm
>> afraid JP Morgan, Siemens, and Thales aren't good enough. 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Marten Feldtmann





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Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

Oddly enough, I've had better results by appealing to history. I guess it has
more to do with *how* I did it, my style and creativity.

Things like Flutter and Elixir and Kotlin (for Android) are anomalies.
Essentially, they benefitted from luck and word of mouth. You can't rely on
that.

While Smalltalk adoption has grown, if only slightly, it's still so far
behind that much of the public continues to believe Smalltalk is dying. For
me, that simply isn't good enough.

It would be really nice to have some big tech company adopt Smalltalk, like
Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Netflix, Uber, etc. That would
hit the ball right out of the park. Alas, I don't see that happening. I'm
afraid JP Morgan, Siemens, and Thales aren't good enough. 



Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> Hi Richard,
> 
> I don't find Smalltalk easy to evangelize, and in my experience the
> appeal to history (a variation of the "argumentum ad antiquitatem"
> fallacy) proved ineffective.
> 
> People don't care about who invented MVC, bitblt or JIT, and so make
> decisions looking into the future, they weight in the past of course,
> but looking forward is what matters for any decision you take now.
> 
> That's why things like Flutter or Elixir and other "new" technologies
> get the attention they get these days, even when there are no "huge"
> success cases. I can't judge whether these techs have value, are hyped
> and/or there is a lot of FOMO in the decision making process. And no,
> I don't believe it is because of Google shoving it through people
> throats, it's people finding something valuable and trying to get an
> professional advantage by learning/adopting it early.
> 
> Smalltalk adoption in the last decade has grown by its own merits,
> _despite_ of the efforts to promote it.
> 
> I would bet that any appeal to emotion could be more effective, since
> most developers get frustrated and any modern Smalltalk dialect can
> ease that inherent frustration of software development, or even
> better, turn it into an enjoyable experience (as it's been my case for
> over a decade).
> 
> Have some reasonable big tech/company saying they're going to use X,
> and you'll have flocks of users trying X.
> 
> Esteban A. Maringolo
> 
> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:03 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>
>> Absolutely correct. Each of those languages do have good reasons to
>> choose
>> them. I have never said otherwise.
>>
>> My point is that Smalltalk gives me many more reasons, many more ways to
>> evangelize it. Smalltalk is very easy to evangelize. That's the premise
>> of
>> the entire article, and if it's wrong, then I should delete the entire
>> article.
>>
>> Is it wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
>> > On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 2:23 PM horrido <
>>
>> > horrido.hobbies@
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I happen to like Dart, Elixir, Golang, Julia, and Rust. But be honest:
>> do
>> >> these languages provide nearly as many reasons to choose them?
>> >> I'm not being deprecatory.
>> >
>> > I don't know about Julia nor Elixir, but Dart has Flutter, Golang
>> > drives a good chunk of the high-availability internet and Rust is
>> > becoming the most secure programming language and several critical
>> > applications are being rewritten in Rust.
>> >
>> > Their user base is huge (and so is their funding), but it's not only
>> > about funding, the reasons to choose them are a lot, there is no
>> > silver bullet.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





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Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

Which rant is that???

To me, what's really nice is the supremely simple language *and* the easily
accessible programming environment *and* live coding *and* metaprogramming
*and* the functional aspect (lambdas). It's not just one thing. It's the
synergy that comes from the totality.

However, there's no question that Smalltalk isn't perfect. There is
certainly room for improvement, as you point out. But if there is a
programming language that can come closer to perfection, I don't know what
it is. And I've used a lot of languages.

Such is the current state of affairs.



Kasper Osterbye wrote
> This rant states once again that in Smalltalk everything is an object.
> Alas, it is not (but should). This is a shortlist of things which is
> currently not objects in smalltalk:
> 
> * Message categories
> * Class categories (there is something called packages, which is rather
> useful as they are actually objects, but they are not really done nicely -
> manifest and RPackage???)
> * The virtual machine (there is only one singleton thingie)
> * The screen (there is only one why can one not instantiate more than one
> world - I guess it is somewhat possible when we get gtk).
> * Projects as (as in collection of objects).
> 
> I happened to learn Simula before Smalltalk (I am Scandinavian after all).
> When I program in Smalltalk I for sure miss nested classes and other
> block-structured things.
> 
> I happened to learn Beta (successor to Simula) before Smalltalk. I miss
> being able to define virtual classes - but it is moot as there is no block
> structure.
> 
> To me, what really is nice about Smalltalk is NOT the language - it is the
> image and live programming. And I can get around all the problems with the
> language because of it. I miss:
> 
> * Nested name spaces - when we finally get around to it, please do not do
> just one level.
> * Singular objects with behaviour I can write in a few lines (a single
> object overriding one or a few methods)
> * A simple switch/case statement
> * …
> 
> But despite all this, I find programming in smalltalk much more fulfilling
> than any other thing I ever touched.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Kasper





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Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

Absolutely correct. Each of those languages do have good reasons to choose
them. I have never said otherwise.

My point is that Smalltalk gives me many more reasons, many more ways to
evangelize it. Smalltalk is very easy to evangelize. That's the premise of
the entire article, and if it's wrong, then I should delete the entire
article.

Is it wrong?



Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 2:23 PM horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
> 
>> I happen to like Dart, Elixir, Golang, Julia, and Rust. But be honest: do
>> these languages provide nearly as many reasons to choose them?
>> I'm not being deprecatory.
> 
> I don't know about Julia nor Elixir, but Dart has Flutter, Golang
> drives a good chunk of the high-availability internet and Rust is
> becoming the most secure programming language and several critical
> applications are being rewritten in Rust.
> 
> Their user base is huge (and so is their funding), but it's not only
> about funding, the reasons to choose them are a lot, there is no
> silver bullet.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Esteban A. Maringolo





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Re: [Pharo-users] Why Smalltalk is so easy to evangelize

[horrido]

It depends on how one interprets the last paragraph. Yours is one
interpretation, and one that never occurred to me.

I didn't see it as "demoting" other languages. The paragraph in no way
criticizes other languages. It simply suggests that Smalltalk offers many
more resources for evangelism. It's all relative.

I happen to like Dart, Elixir, Golang, Julia, and Rust. But be honest: do
these languages provide nearly as many reasons to choose them? I'm not being
deprecatory.



Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Regardless of the reasoning behind the title of the article, I don't
> like the tone of the last paragraph, it is not necessary, and probably
> not recommended either, to demote other languages in order to promote
> yours. In particular languages that have their own merits and
> capabilities to which Smalltalk/Pharo can't fulfill today, and by
> design won't neither.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Esteban A. Maringolo
> 
> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 1:07 PM Richard Kenneth Eng
> <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>>
>> https://itnext.io/why-smalltalk-is-so-easy-to-evangelize-2b88b4d4605c
>>
>>





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Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk: It’s Not Your Grandfather’s Programming Language

[horrido]

And it's a very good view, indeed. I thank you for bringing it to my
attention.

I was particularly impressed by the "revival" aspect of e-cars because, as
you said, Smalltalk is due for a revival, as well. This may actually lead to
a sequel article!

I am always amazed that I can still come up with new ideas for articles.
After 5 years, you'd think I'd run out of ideas. In fact, I actually thought
I did.

Surprises never cease.



tbrunz wrote
> Understood...  It is, of course, your essay, and my comments are just my
> own
> view.
> 
> And I think I've made my point, which is what I wanted to get across.
> 
> I like your writing style, Richard.  You're making a huge contribution to
> Smalltalk/Pharo and it's much appreciated.  Please continue!
> 
> -t
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk: It’s Not Your Grandfather’s Programming Language

[horrido]

I've made the change from grandfather to grandparent. Unfortunately, I cannot
alter the URL — it still reads grandfather.

As much as I would like to use Tesla, the problem is that our grandparents
never drove electric. Without rewriting a substantial portion of the
article, I cannot make a connection between grandparent and Tesla. It would
be too awkward.

I want my article to be elegant. That's the hallmark of my writing style.



tbrunz wrote
> I don't think so...  In the early 1900's some of the finest and most
> sought-after automobiles were battery-powered electrics:
> https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/22/16346892/electric-car-history-fritchle
> 
> You want to associate with the prestige of being a manly, winning, race
> car? 
> Okay:
> Sept 7, 1896: The very first automobile race held on a track in the U.S.
> was
> won by... an electric car.
> https://insideevs.com/news/339638/on-this-day-in-ev-history-electric-car-wins-us-first-auto-race/
> 
> It does fit your premise:  One third of our grandparents (for those of us
>>50 at least) drove electric cars [opcit].  Then their popularity waned as
> ICE vehicles grabbed everyone's attention.  Now, e-cars are all the rage
> again.  
> 
> Tesla is *the* aspirational vehicle: Last year GM sales declined 2.3%. 
> Last
> year Ford sales declined 3%.  Tesla sales?  Tesla sales not only increased
> last year, but have grown 47 *times* in 7 years!  Holy smokes!!! Talk
> about
> explosive success and popularity!
> https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/03/tesla-sales-grew-47x-in-7-years/
> 
> Everyone dreams of owning a Tesla.  (I'm buying mine next year, when my
> Bolt
> goes off lease...)  Those other cars are "unobtainium".  Flights of fancy. 
> Dream about them?  Maybe, but no one is every serious about actually
> buying
> one and driving it for themselves.
> 
> Electric cars are a "disruptive" technology in the process of remaking the
> auto industry world-wide -- and all for the better.
> 
> And so it is with Smalltalk, yes?  I suggest associating Smalltalk with a
> real-world, world-changing, growing-in-popularity technology that's taking
> people from skeptical nay-sayers to enthusiastic true believers -- not a
> pie-in-the-sky, would-be-nice-but-can't-happen-to-me bit of
> testosterone-infused wimsy.  Smalltalk is The Real Deal.  Something you
> can
> obtain and DRIVE!
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk: It’s Not Your Grandfather’s Programming Language

[horrido]

The problem is that the underlying premise of my article would be undermined.
Our grandparents had nothing like the Tesla.

I used Maserati because it's an /aspirational/ car. Not practical. Not
cheap. But droolworthy.

Nobody dreams of owning a Tesla. But Maserati? Bugatti? Porsche? Aston
Martin? You bet!



tbrunz wrote
> Richard!  Smalltalk is /the electric car of development systems/!
> 
> You need to lead with an image of a *Tesla Model S*, not a Maserati!  
> 
> What do most people associate with Italian sports cars?  Expensive,
> impractical, temperamental, always in need of (expensive) maintenance,
> etc.
> 
> Smalltalk is none of these things...  Inexpensive, more practical than
> most
> people imagine, robust and resilient, minimal maintenance, etc.  It's more
> like a trusty sports utility vehicle -- so maybe an image of a Tesla Model
> X
> (or Y) fits even better.
> 
> Another way Smalltalk is like an e-car: Electric cars extremely popular
> when
> automobiles were new, fell out of favor, are today misunderstood by the
> majority, but are being "rediscovered" and found to better in almost every
> way compared to "what's popular" (ICE vehicles).  Those who drive them
> just
> LOVE them, and so the stage is set for the rEVolution: the renaissance of
> electric cars.
> 
> And so it is for Smalltalk.  
> 
> tl;dr:  Smalltalk:e-cars::Pharo:Tesla
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] R: Smalltalk: It’s Not Your Grandfather’s Programming Language

[horrido]

Thanks!

I have a question for everyone. Someone has taken me to task for being
"sexist". He says I should refer to "grandparent" instead of "grandfather".

I'd like to ask for your opinion. Would "grandparent" sound better in my
article? Imagine replacing all instances of "grandfather" with
"grandparent". Would it have the same impact?

Thanks.



Lorenzo wrote
> Great work Rich
> 
>  
> 
> My best compliments.
> 
>  
> 
> Lorenzo
> 
>  
> 
> Da: Pharo-users [mailto:

> pharo-users-bounces@.pharo

> ] Per conto di Richard Kenneth Eng
> Inviato: lunedì 6 gennaio 2020 19:07
> A: 

> pharo-users@.pharo

> Oggetto: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk: It’s Not Your Grandfather’s Programming
> Language
> 
>  
> 
> https://levelup.gitconnected.com/smalltalk-its-not-your-grandfather-s-programming-language-f1985eaa17ff





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Re: [Pharo-users] How can we celebrate the 50th anniversary of Smalltalk?

[horrido]

horrido wrote
> https://medium.com/@richardeng/how-can-we-celebrate-the-50th-anniversary-of-smalltalk-e6b35dbc09a9

Amazingly, no one has any suggestions! I'm afraid the 50th anniversary will
pass very quietly.



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Re: [Pharo-users] We Are Smalltalk

[horrido]

Sorry about that. I've cited your original work in the video. However, if you
decline to give me permission, then I shall remove the video. Just let me
know.

Thanks.



SergeStinckwich wrote
> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 2:23 PM Christopher Fuhrman <

> christopher.fuhrman@

>> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 12:24, Christopher Fuhrman <
>> 

> christopher.fuhrman@

>> wrote:
>>
>>>  ... expecting to find a link to a tutorial
>>>
>>
>> Google helped me find it:
>> https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/athenssketch-how-to-browse-cool-athens-graphics-example/
>>
>> I subclassed as suggested and re-typed the drawStepOn: method (I had to
>> do
>> it in a System Browser, as the SketchBrowser gave me troubles to compile,
>> in Pharo 8 at least). It works as shown in the video (more or less). The
>> graphics portal has no window frame, but you can move it around.
>>
>> However, making the live changes in Pharo 8 finally leads to a bad state:
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> When I have more time, I'll try it with Pharo 7. It's a great demo for
>> live programming.
>>
>>
> 
> 
> I have done the original video as a example of a great demo for live
> programming.
> Apparently my video was copied without permissions and without reference
> to
> the original work.
> 
> It would be nice to redo the demo like the one I have done.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -- 
> Serge Stinckwic
> h
> 
> Int. Research Unit
>  on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO)
> Sorbonne University
>  (SU)
> French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD)
> U
> niversity of Yaoundé I, Cameroon
> "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for
> machines to execute."
> https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich
> 
> 
> image.png (52K)
> ;





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Re: [Pharo-users] We Are Smalltalk

[horrido]

Thank Serge Stinckwich. Without his video, this wouldn't have been possible.



horrido wrote
> Very cool! Thanks!!!
> 
> 
> 
> tbrunz wrote
>> Nice!
>> 
>> Here's another video, one that focuses on Roassal 3, but is still very
>> visual and does a nice job of showing what (Pharo) Smalltalk can do:
>> 
>> https://youtu.be/R2rLr7Z1b8Y
>> 
>> -t
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] We Are Smalltalk

[horrido]

Very cool! Thanks!!!



tbrunz wrote
> Nice!
> 
> Here's another video, one that focuses on Roassal 3, but is still very
> visual and does a nice job of showing what (Pharo) Smalltalk can do:
> 
> https://youtu.be/R2rLr7Z1b8Y
> 
> -t
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] Connection Timed Out

[horrido]

Since JRMPC opens for registration in three days, I can't afford to screw
around with the web server at this late date. Had I known about this issue
earlier in the year (say, May or June), I could've dealt with it then.

All I'm looking for is a workaround, a duct tape solution.



Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> On 1 Sep 2019, at 23:06, horrido <

> horrido.hobbies@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> This didn't fix the issue. It's not a matter of adjusting timeout values.
>> 
>> However, I believe I've resolved the matter, more or less. You see, I
>> think
>> the problem is with Gmail...
>> 
>> My Teapot application is using
>> ZdcSecureSMTPClient>>sendUsingGmailAccount:password:to:message:. For
>> whatever reason, Gmail is taking to long to respond.
>> 
>> In the main thread, timeout causes the network to report a timeout error
>> to
>> the web browser. It seems that the Pharo application cannot capture this.
> 
> Of course you can deal with it, if you want to.
> 
> An HTTP server handling a request should do so fairly quickly, else
> clients will become unhappy. The client might automatically give up and
> close the connection.
> 
> Doing a (possibly) long running operation while handling a request is,
> like you noticed yourself, dangerous.
> 
> A Zn HTTP Server (like the one used by Teapot) can operate in 2 modes: in
> debug mode and in production mode. In debug mode an unexpected error while
> handling a request will result in a debugger. In production mode, that
> same exception will result in an HTTP 500 Server error with the exception
> printString. Production mode is the default.
> 
>> But if I fork a process to do the sendUsingGmailAccount function, Pharo
>> does
>> capture this...a debug window opens with the timeout error message. The
>> debug window tells me that it's timing out on waiting for data on the
>> socket.
>> 
>> Fortunately, the debug window does not prevent the Pharo application from
>> continuing normally. So I can live with this.
>> 
>> The alternative is to NOT use Gmail as a SMTP relay and *manually* send
>> emails to my recipients. However, this would be extremely tedious and
>> error-prone.
>> 
>> I'll play it by ear. If the timeouts and debug windows prove to be
>> problematic, I can fall back on manual emailing. Such is life in the
>> world
>> of networking.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> horrido wrote
>>> I did a bit of research on the web and I discovered that nginx can be
>>> unreliable due to default or inappropriate settings for certain timeout
>>> values. Currently, I'm testing a possible fix: set /keepalive_timeout/
>>> to
>>> 90, rather than the default 65. So far, it seems to work, but I need
>>> further
>>> testing.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Ben Coman wrote
>>>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 at 03:12, Richard Kenneth Eng <
>>> 
>>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>> 
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I have a Teapot application running under Linux and nginx. From time
>>>>> to
>>>>> time, I get the following error: *ConnectionTimedOut: Data receive
>>>>> timed
>>>>> out.*
>>>>> 
>>>>> Otherwise, the Teapot application works fine, even with this error
>>>>> message.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can anyone tell me what or where it's timing out, and how can I change
>>>>> the
>>>>> timeout value?
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not familiar with Teapot, but a screen snapshot might help.
>>>> Hopefully someone else has some ideas.
>>>> 
>>>> cheers -ben
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>>





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Re: [Pharo-users] Connection Timed Out

[horrido]

This didn't fix the issue. It's not a matter of adjusting timeout values.

However, I believe I've resolved the matter, more or less. You see, I think
the problem is with Gmail...

My Teapot application is using
ZdcSecureSMTPClient>>sendUsingGmailAccount:password:to:message:. For
whatever reason, Gmail is taking to long to respond.

In the main thread, timeout causes the network to report a timeout error to
the web browser. It seems that the Pharo application cannot capture this.

But if I fork a process to do the sendUsingGmailAccount function, Pharo does
capture this...a debug window opens with the timeout error message. The
debug window tells me that it's timing out on waiting for data on the
socket.

Fortunately, the debug window does not prevent the Pharo application from
continuing normally. So I can live with this.

The alternative is to NOT use Gmail as a SMTP relay and *manually* send
emails to my recipients. However, this would be extremely tedious and
error-prone.

I'll play it by ear. If the timeouts and debug windows prove to be
problematic, I can fall back on manual emailing. Such is life in the world
of networking.



horrido wrote
> I did a bit of research on the web and I discovered that nginx can be
> unreliable due to default or inappropriate settings for certain timeout
> values. Currently, I'm testing a possible fix: set /keepalive_timeout/ to
> 90, rather than the default 65. So far, it seems to work, but I need
> further
> testing.
> 
> 
> 
> Ben Coman wrote
>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 at 03:12, Richard Kenneth Eng <
> 
>> horrido.hobbies@
> 
>> >
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I have a Teapot application running under Linux and nginx. From time to
>>> time, I get the following error: *ConnectionTimedOut: Data receive timed
>>> out.*
>>>
>>> Otherwise, the Teapot application works fine, even with this error
>>> message.
>>>
>>> Can anyone tell me what or where it's timing out, and how can I change
>>> the
>>> timeout value?
>>>
>> 
>> I'm not familiar with Teapot, but a screen snapshot might help.
>> Hopefully someone else has some ideas.
>> 
>> cheers -ben
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] Connection Timed Out

[horrido]

I did a bit of research on the web and I discovered that nginx can be
unreliable due to default or inappropriate settings for certain timeout
values. Currently, I'm testing a possible fix: set /keepalive_timeout/ to
90, rather than the default 65. So far, it seems to work, but I need further
testing.



Ben Coman wrote
> On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 at 03:12, Richard Kenneth Eng <

> horrido.hobbies@

> >
> wrote:
> 
>> I have a Teapot application running under Linux and nginx. From time to
>> time, I get the following error: *ConnectionTimedOut: Data receive timed
>> out.*
>>
>> Otherwise, the Teapot application works fine, even with this error
>> message.
>>
>> Can anyone tell me what or where it's timing out, and how can I change
>> the
>> timeout value?
>>
> 
> I'm not familiar with Teapot, but a screen snapshot might help.
> Hopefully someone else has some ideas.
> 
> cheers -ben





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Re: [Pharo-users] A Canticle for Smalltalk

[horrido]

True, some applications are very long-lived. But in my experience, a great
many applications are EOL'd within 20 years. It may happen for many
different reasons, some technical, some political, some because the
technology has grown out of date (which causes HR and support difficulties).

My point was simply that any software project that lasts more than a decade
has to be considered a success.



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Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 6.0 and 6.1 64 bit freeze on MacMini -also in 7.03

[horrido]

Hmmm, this is worrisome. My JRMPC competition opens for registration in less
than a month, and registrants may use either Windows or Mac. Since the
competition is based on Pharo 7, it is absolutely crucial that Mac-using
registrants be able to successfully run Pharo 7.

Since my Mac mini died last month, I can no longer pursue this matter, so
hopefully someone else can follow up on this soon.



TedVanGaalen wrote
> Hi Tim,
> 
> I did that before (see thread history) and other kinds of magic too. 
> Probably (still) a VM error? (because it happens with squeak also, which
> uses same VM?) 
>  
> However, it is beyond my skills and knowledge
> No idea how to solve this.
> 
> The problem has been around for much too long 
> It bounces people away that arrive for the first time at Pharo/Smalltalk. 
> (and they surely won't know about a workaround)
> 
> When the first simple things they try freezes the whole environment, 
> they'll go away and probably never return.
> That was then their first and last impression of Smalltalk.
> 
> TedvG
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html





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Re: [Pharo-users] A Canticle for Smalltalk

[horrido]

Personally I don't like the aesthetics, the pace of text and its
"nostalgia", and the overall message of the song lyrics ; and although
I like the band and song, it's a proven plagiarism of Satriani's "If I
could fly". [1]


Putting aside the song's controversy, I think it's a lovely aesthetic. It's
romantic. It mirrors Smalltalk's former glory. And the video's content
suggests a possible bright future. "Join the revolution."

Indeed.



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