Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Alexandre Bergel via Pharo-users]

--- Begin Message ---
Hi Andy,

I have not idea. But this would be a very valuable effort.

Cheers,
Alexandre


> On Sep 18, 2018, at 5:12 AM, andyl  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Has any work been done of this? If not, could someone point me in the right
> direction to start it, perhaps with a list of what is already known about
> the issue? I'd be willing to look at both MacOS and Windows HiDPI rendering
> at the same time.
> 
> Presumably the 64 bit MacOS build is Cocoa based, so that would be the right
> starting point?
> 
> Although I have decades of experience of the above platforms, I'm a relative
> novice with the Smalltalk libraries - so any hints as to how the rendering
> process currently hangs together (and how much is Smalltalk vs native
> rendering) would be really helpful.
> 
> Regards,
> Andy.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
> 


--- End Message ---

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Dimitris Chloupis]

I may be wrong but last time I checked access to the OS Graphics API was
handled by the VM itself. There was a talk about decoupling that from the
VM and porting it to the image but no idea if it happened.

if it was the pragma primitive inside the method that means it calls native
code , the second case is using the UFFI which is the official FFI of
Pharo. The Pragma needs a VM rebuild , the UFFI does not. These are the two
ways that Pharo intefaces with native code (C/ObjectiveC etc).

So for starters you are going to need the VMMaker which is responsible for
building the VM , the good news is that it retains a lot of the live coding
characteristics and can even compile smalltalk to C (Slang) which is how it
keeps most of the code in Smalltalk rather than C.

If the Graphics API is still inside the VM then Eliot and other
contributors will be able to point you at the VM mailing list at the right
direction. If it is not then pharo-dev mailing list will most likely have
the developer/s responsible for porting it to the image and they will also
be able to point you to the right direction.

I dont think experience in smalltalk would play a big role here mainly
because its a C problem than a Smalltalk problem cause those libraries that
offer Retina support are written and meant to be used by C (ObjC) , this
applies for both primitive pragmas and UFFI. You experience with Cocoa is
going to be the crucial factor here, if you know how to do it in C , doing
it in Smalltalk is relative easy.

You may also be able to pintpoint the methods responsible for the rendering
by inserting a breakpoint in a window's draw method. The debugger should be
able to give you the stack back to the primitive/uffi call. Of course it
will require a bit of navigating around but such is the nature and curse of
coding.

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:13 AM andyl  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Has any work been done of this? If not, could someone point me in the right
> direction to start it, perhaps with a list of what is already known about
> the issue? I'd be willing to look at both MacOS and Windows HiDPI rendering
> at the same time.
>
> Presumably the 64 bit MacOS build is Cocoa based, so that would be the
> right
> starting point?
>
> Although I have decades of experience of the above platforms, I'm a
> relative
> novice with the Smalltalk libraries - so any hints as to how the rendering
> process currently hangs together (and how much is Smalltalk vs native
> rendering) would be really helpful.
>
> Regards,
> Andy.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[andyl]

Hi,

Has any work been done of this? If not, could someone point me in the right
direction to start it, perhaps with a list of what is already known about
the issue? I'd be willing to look at both MacOS and Windows HiDPI rendering
at the same time.

Presumably the 64 bit MacOS build is Cocoa based, so that would be the right
starting point?

Although I have decades of experience of the above platforms, I'm a relative
novice with the Smalltalk libraries - so any hints as to how the rendering
process currently hangs together (and how much is Smalltalk vs native
rendering) would be really helpful.

Regards,
Andy.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Yuriy Tymchuk]

You can also open an info window about the Pharo.app and check the “Open in low 
resolution” box. Then you will have a real pixelated graphics and now blurry 
(which can be annoying).

Cheers.
Uko

> On 17 May 2016, at 22:21, Damien Pollet  wrote:
> 
> On 17 May 2016 at 22:14, Alexandre Bergel  > wrote:
> My email was _not_ about judging the community effort, but more on whether 
> pharo work on a Retina laptop.
> What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer?
> 
> You get the same thing as on a non-retina display, except instead of each 
> fuzzy pixel you get a visibly sharper square made of 2×2 retina pixels. From 
> sufficiently far away there's no difference, but when you're right in front 
> of it you can see the pixelation, especially for text and compared to 
> HiDPI-enabled apps in nearby windows.

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Tudor Girba]

Thanks for this point of view.

Just to put a bit of perspective. Indeed, first impressions do count, and now 
we start to be able to address this part. It took a long time to be able to get 
to this point, and until now most of the efforts were internal facing (new 
compiler, new debugger, new VM, new UFFI etc). We are still not in polishing 
mode, though. We still have internal pieces to fit together (like 64 bit, 
Sista, image changes management and some others) and we still need a more 
flexible UI part (which is what the Bloc effort is about). Especially with 
Bloc, we are approaching the surface, and I strongly believe the future changes 
will have more visible effects.

Cheers,
Doru


> On May 18, 2016, at 3:39 PM, J.F. Rick  wrote:
> 
> My guess is that retina support through Athens rendering and 64-bit are 
> critical to greater adoption of Pharo for several reasons:
> (1) First impressions matter greatly. If I try to get someone into Pharo and 
> the first thing they see is a pixelated screen, they will have an immediate 
> bad reaction. My students believed that Pharo was a toy language because of 
> the pixelated rendering. Even when I explained why, I'm not sure they 
> believed me (sure, prof, we believe you). The interface being slow also gives 
> the impression that the entire system is slow. So, speed improvements from 
> Spur are less tangible. For most newcomers, interface speed = system speed.
> (2) One of the first things newcomers will want to do with a new system is 
> some sort of graphical user interface. Pharo's morphic is quite nice but the 
> BitBlt rendering is off putting. So, even if newcomers buy that there are 
> reasons for the rendering being not great, they will likely conclude that it 
> isn't a system for them.
> (3) The vast majority of OSes are 64-bit and 32-bit packages are getting 
> deprecated. So, even if there are nice ways to interface with the outside 
> world, they are being held back. So, very small things, like sound on Ubuntu, 
> don't work. It's not really worth fixing that until Pharo is 64-bit. Again, 
> it looks like Pharo is behind the curve, rather than ahead of it.
> 
> Now, that stated, I understand why things are the way they are. There are 
> limited resources and there are things that take priority. In addition, there 
> is the tension between Pharo as an engine for research ideas (roughly equates 
> to the things where Pharo is ahead of the curve) and Pharo as a general 
> purpose environment (most notable in places where Pharo is behind the curve).
> 
> Pharo5 is a major accomplishment and I am excited by it. It is awesome what 
> was accomplished. I have faith in the leadership in setting priorities and 
> great appreciation for those putting in the time. My point in posting this is 
> not to criticize past development or priorities but just to make the case 
> that these two things on the horizon (retina support, 64-bit) are important 
> to my use of Pharo and how newcomers will view the system. I wish I could 
> contribute but the VM things are out of my zone of competence. 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[J.F. Rick]

My guess is that retina support through Athens rendering and 64-bit are
critical to greater adoption of Pharo for several reasons:
(1) First impressions matter greatly. If I try to get someone into Pharo
and the first thing they see is a pixelated screen, they will have an
immediate bad reaction. My students believed that Pharo was a toy language
because of the pixelated rendering. Even when I explained why, I'm not sure
they believed me (sure, prof, we believe you). The interface being slow
also gives the impression that the entire system is slow. So, speed
improvements from Spur are less tangible. For most newcomers, interface
speed = system speed.
(2) One of the first things newcomers will want to do with a new system is
some sort of graphical user interface. Pharo's morphic is quite nice but
the BitBlt rendering is off putting. So, even if newcomers buy that there
are reasons for the rendering being not great, they will likely conclude
that it isn't a system for them.
(3) The vast majority of OSes are 64-bit and 32-bit packages are getting
deprecated. So, even if there are nice ways to interface with the outside
world, they are being held back. So, very small things, like sound on
Ubuntu, don't work. It's not really worth fixing that until Pharo is
64-bit. Again, it looks like Pharo is behind the curve, rather than ahead
of it.

Now, that stated, I understand why things are the way they are. There are
limited resources and there are things that take priority. In addition,
there is the tension between Pharo as an engine for research ideas (roughly
equates to the things where Pharo is ahead of the curve) and Pharo as a
general purpose environment (most notable in places where Pharo is behind
the curve).

Pharo5 is a major accomplishment and I am excited by it. It is awesome what
was accomplished. I have faith in the leadership in setting priorities and
great appreciation for those putting in the time. My point in posting this
is not to criticize past development or priorities but just to make the
case that these two things on the horizon (retina support, 64-bit) are
important to my use of Pharo and how newcomers will view the system. I wish
I could contribute but the VM things are out of my zone of competence.

Cheers,

Jeff

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Thibault Raffaillac]

> > What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer?
> You get the same thing as on a non-retina display, except instead of each
> fuzzy pixel you get a visibly sharper square made of 2*2 retina pixels.
> From sufficiently far away there's no difference, but when you're right in
> front of it you can see the pixelation, especially for text and compared to
> HiDPI-enabled apps in nearby windows.

I have the same problem too. When working on OpenGL demo in C I noticed SDL2 
does output the same ugly pixels by default, yet should support Retina screens 
(https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_CreateWindow - did not try, switched to GLFW which 
supports Retina out of the box).
Is Pharo window created with native calls or SDL2?

Cheers,
Thibault

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[markm]

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the better fonts, but also
appreciate all the hard work everyone has put in so far!



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Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[stepharo]

Le 17/5/16 à 22:14, Alexandre Bergel a écrit :

My email was _not_ about judging the community effort, but more on whether 
pharo work on a Retina laptop.


ok


What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer?


you get pixelized fonts.
But I have other mac app doing the same.

Stef


Cheers,
Alexandre



On May 17, 2016, at 2:47 PM, stepharo  wrote:



I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display?
How can it be?

Alexandre
I'm sorry to see this email.
We all worked like mad and Esteban did A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK.
Nearly nobody on this list really understand what is to write a new FFI 
framework and Esteban
got nearly burnt by Spur and by UFFI. It was not our plan to get forced to do 
such tasks.
So Esteban did not time to work on Retina support. It looks quite simple to me.

Now what all pharoers should deeply understand is that if
- people would not only focus on their projects (even if they are 
important) but
help with pharo issues, then core engineers would have more time for the 
things
that others cannot do. Easy no.
- the pharo consortium does not raise enough money we will not be able to 
pay
Esteban in the future.

So enjoy this moment because we have
Esteban on managing releases and all the dirty work
Nicolas Passerini payed by the consortium for 9 months to work on Git 
support
Pavel to work on bootstrap, bugfixes and pharo distributions
Christophe Demarey 60% on bootstrap and pharo package manager
Guillermo 60% on bootstrap and others

And this will not be forever.
Stef

Alexandre



On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes  
wrote:

I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply:

http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html



On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm  wrote:
Hi

Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I
have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of
posts from a few years back.

Any help much appreciated!


Mark



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Luís Felipe Strano Moraes
http://www.strano.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Damien Pollet]

On 17 May 2016 at 22:14, Alexandre Bergel  wrote:

> My email was _not_ about judging the community effort, but more on whether
> pharo work on a Retina laptop.
> What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer?
>

You get the same thing as on a non-retina display, except instead of each
fuzzy pixel you get a visibly sharper square made of 2×2 retina pixels.
>From sufficiently far away there's no difference, but when you're right in
front of it you can see the pixelation, especially for text and compared to
HiDPI-enabled apps in nearby windows.

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Alexandre Bergel]

Okay, this is what I suspected. So buying a new laptop will not prevent me from 
using Pharo :-)

Alexandre


> On May 17, 2016, at 2:38 PM, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
> 
> it works.
> just fonts could be better (and eventually, they will). 
> 
> Esteban
> 
>> On 17 May 2016, at 21:32, Alexandre Bergel  wrote:
>> 
>> I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display?
>> How can it be?
>> 
>> Alexandre
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply:
>>> 
>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I
>>> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of
>>> posts from a few years back.
>>> 
>>> Any help much appreciated!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: 
>>> http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes
>>> http://www.strano.org
>> 
>> -- 
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

-- 
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Alexandre Bergel]

My email was _not_ about judging the community effort, but more on whether 
pharo work on a Retina laptop.
What happens if Pharo is launched on a retina computer?

Cheers,
Alexandre


> On May 17, 2016, at 2:47 PM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> 
>> I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display?
>> How can it be?
> Alexandre
> I'm sorry to see this email.
> We all worked like mad and Esteban did A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK.
> Nearly nobody on this list really understand what is to write a new FFI 
> framework and Esteban
> got nearly burnt by Spur and by UFFI. It was not our plan to get forced to do 
> such tasks.
> So Esteban did not time to work on Retina support. It looks quite simple to 
> me.
> 
> Now what all pharoers should deeply understand is that if
>- people would not only focus on their projects (even if they are 
> important) but
>help with pharo issues, then core engineers would have more time for the 
> things
>that others cannot do. Easy no.
>- the pharo consortium does not raise enough money we will not be able to 
> pay
>Esteban in the future.
> 
> So enjoy this moment because we have
>Esteban on managing releases and all the dirty work
>Nicolas Passerini payed by the consortium for 9 months to work on Git 
> support
>Pavel to work on bootstrap, bugfixes and pharo distributions
>Christophe Demarey 60% on bootstrap and pharo package manager
>Guillermo 60% on bootstrap and others
> 
> And this will not be forever.
> Stef
>> 
>> Alexandre
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply:
>>> 
>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I
>>> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of
>>> posts from a few years back.
>>> 
>>> Any help much appreciated!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: 
>>> http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes
>>> http://www.strano.org
> 
> 

-- 
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Esteban Lorenzano]

it works.
just fonts could be better (and eventually, they will). 

Esteban

> On 17 May 2016, at 21:32, Alexandre Bergel  wrote:
> 
> I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display?
> How can it be?
> 
> Alexandre
> 
> 
>> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply:
>> 
>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I
>> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of
>> posts from a few years back.
>> 
>> Any help much appreciated!
>> 
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes
>> http://www.strano.org
> 
> -- 
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Alexandre Bergel]

I am about to buy a new laptop. Pharo does not work with Retina display?
How can it be?

Alexandre


> On May 17, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Luis Felipe Strano Moraes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply:
> 
> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm  wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I
> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of
> posts from a few years back.
> 
> Any help much appreciated!
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Luís Felipe Strano Moraes
> http://www.strano.org

-- 
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel  http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Re: [Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[Luis Felipe Strano Moraes]

I asked about this just a few days ago, here's the reply:

http://forum.world.st/Pharo-and-HiDPI-tc4894853.html



On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 10:37 PM, markm  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I
> have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful
> of
> posts from a few years back.
>
> Any help much appreciated!
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>


-- 
Luís Felipe Strano Moraes
http://www.strano.org

[Pharo-users] Retina support in Pharo

[markm]

Hi

Is it possible to get Pharo (4 or 5) to run with retina support on OS X? I
have tried searching for some answers, but alas could only find a handful of
posts from a few years back.

Any help much appreciated!


Mark



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Retina-support-in-Pharo-tp4895245.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.